Log for #openttd on 26th June 2014:
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10:36:06  <Tivec> o/
10:37:08  <Tivec> I'm playing with one of the compiled packs from the forum (the spring patchpack) using FIRS - but for some odd reason, many of the FIRS industries just plainly refuse to generate. The Smithy for instance, or machine workshop. Anyone have any idea why this might happen?
10:38:52  <Tivec> here's a screenie of the map:
10:39:17  <Tivec> as you see, smithy forge is at 0 - so is scrap yard, oil rig, hotels... and many more.
10:39:23  <Tivec> could it be because I limit the distance between industries?
10:42:09  <V453000> could be because those industries have some limitaions when or where they can be built
10:42:19  <V453000> for sure  smithy forge is only like up to 1870 or so
10:43:08  <Tivec> hrm, i generated worlds at 1850 as a start point, and they had no smithy forges.. I reduced the distance between industries and industries-town, and it's seems to generate some more
10:43:24  <Tivec> is there a description for the different industries for when they're expected to appear/disappear?
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10:45:03  <Tivec> ohhh wait, in the fund new industry menu I can see that
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10:45:18  <Tivec> smithy forge is not available after 1948
10:46:15  <V453000> hm
10:46:36  <V453000> idk never had similar issue
10:46:39  <Tivec> hmm, will these industries disappear after that year or just not be fundable?
10:47:52  <V453000> new ones just wont spawn
10:47:56  <Tivec> alright :)
10:48:09  <Tivec> well, time to gen a large map to play on then, now that most industries spawn
10:49:18  <Tivec> going to take a good while :P
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11:10:30  <NGC3982> My word.
11:10:41  <NGC3982> That's usually a good indicator to not even try
11:10:55  <NGC3982> When that counter takes two long, your computer might not like the gameplay.
11:11:00  <NGC3982> "two long".
11:11:00  <NGC3982> ..
11:14:54  <TrueBrain> yes, you wrote that
11:14:56  <TrueBrain> we all saw it :D
11:18:37  <Tivec> it's alright, it handles the gameplay just fine :)
11:19:11  <Tivec> it only lags when I have the full map up... let me take a screenshot :P
11:19:18  <Tivec> lag not shown:
11:19:29  <Tivec> but that is a *lot* of industry to connect :P
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11:35:11  <DigitalFox> Hey guys, good morning.
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11:35:55  <DigitalFox> Is it possible in NML to define a date where a type of train track is no longer is available?
11:36:08  <DigitalFox> *no longer available
11:41:40  <Eddi|zuHause> no
11:41:52  <Eddi|zuHause> once available, it stays
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11:57:19  <DigitalFox> so not possible do have something similar to small airport where it get's grey-out?
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11:58:04  <Wienish> Hey yall
12:00:01  <planetmaker> hi ho
12:01:41  <Wienish> there he is again :)
12:01:48  <Wienish> thanks for the quick response yesterday
12:09:36  <planetmaker> DigitalFox, it's possible to have any type of airport at any time. It just needs a NewGRF which makes it possible
12:09:41  <planetmaker> which you would need to write
12:11:22  <DigitalFox> I'm writing a NML train track type GRF, and my idea (that I now know is not possible) was after a certain period block the construction of old track types.
12:12:30  <planetmaker> that needs a change to OpenTTD and the grfspecs themselves
12:13:00  <planetmaker> besides... you can always choose to not build an ancient track type
12:13:24  <DigitalFox> true, was just a option :)
12:14:11  <planetmaker> it makes sense from some POV, sure. Every other feature has that option basically to expire somewhen
12:14:26  <planetmaker> hm... not sure about bridges
12:18:09  <DigitalFox> When in NewGRF Settings Window, if you don't press Apply and close the Windows it saves all the changes done, is this the wanted behavior?
12:18:34  <DigitalFox> *close the Window
12:22:13  <V453000> DigitalFox: just stop introducing new trains on the old track type, then nobody has a reason to stay with that track type, it does not break if you turn expiring vehicles off, and expiring vehicles alone are very poorly controllable
12:22:28  <V453000> and people will automatically use the modern track type instead
12:25:10  <DigitalFox> V453000: :)
12:25:43  <V453000> ?
12:25:54  <V453000> guess you only have tracks and no trains eh
12:26:01  <DigitalFox> yeah :\
12:26:13  <V453000> why do you need to disable tracks then?
12:26:15  <planetmaker> DigitalFox, yes, it somewhat is the intended behaviour
12:26:32  <planetmaker> the better behaviour is NewGRF utopia. but we're not there yet
12:26:41  <planetmaker>
12:27:08  <planetmaker> changing that behaviour requires *way* more than one might assume :)
12:28:17  <V453000> hm, can tracks change sprites based on current_Date?
12:28:47  <V453000> would require to reload  the game I assume
12:28:53  <planetmaker> date is a variable iirc
12:29:02  <DigitalFox> planetmaker: Ah got it, thanks :)
12:29:17  <V453000> -> t racks can change sprites based on some variable?
12:29:44  <V453000> actually I do change tracks based on if newbridges/tbrs/no bridges are loaded
12:29:51  <V453000> suppose that means tracks can change sprites :)
12:30:14  <V453000> DigitalFox: then perhaps changing sprites instead of disabling some track type is a more elegant solution? :) and mainly possible
12:30:41  <V453000> disabling something is just wrong, why not let the player to build it if he so desires
12:31:22  <V453000> or you can give the tracks a speed limit to make them obsolete with modern engine simply
12:34:00  <planetmaker> V453000, well, you don't remember the *build date*, but you can query the *current date*.
12:34:13  <planetmaker> Thus what you can do, is change the looks of all railtiles at a certain date
12:34:20  <V453000> that is what I mean
12:34:21  <V453000> yes
12:34:30  <planetmaker> swedishrails actually does that for level crossings
12:34:45  <V453000> oh yes
12:34:57  <planetmaker> though I use the random bits to distribute it to four different dates ;)
12:35:16  <DigitalFox> V453000: I'm already like in NUtracks giving a speed limit for track, it was a way of removing old and mostly unneeded options, but no problem :)
12:35:34  <planetmaker> speed limits for tracks IMHO are boring :)
12:35:45  <V453000> you already remove the track by making it useless
12:35:58  <planetmaker> they were a nice idea. But to me personally it proved to not add to gameplay fun at all
12:36:42  <V453000> speed limits have only one use - to fix a train set, when it has some engines which are majorly overpowered
12:36:45  <DigitalFox> planetmaker: To me is to make the fun of upgrading tracks
12:37:01  <planetmaker> the better differentiation is the type of vehicles which can drive on them. Like the simplistic rail vs. e-rail. but you can go beyond that
12:37:18  <planetmaker> upgrading tracks is boring... drag+drop whole map. done
12:37:30  <V453000> ^
12:37:44  <planetmaker> I'm busy enough to upgrade the track layout. And that doesn't require new tracks
12:38:01  <DigitalFox> It doesn't have to be boring, you can having more money change the layout of the track, with a faster and more possible optimized one
12:38:16  <planetmaker> money never is an issue :)
12:38:19  <V453000> money = 0 gameplay
12:39:04  <V453000> you cant really control openttd by money, the player can always build longer route to get more profit, and any of your profit logic breaks then, utterly
12:39:16  <V453000> without the player doing anything smart to solve an "issue"
12:39:44  <planetmaker> small maps don't solve it much either. 64 x 2048 is also not big :)
12:40:11  <V453000> no but transporting coal over 2k tiles is probably profittable :P
12:40:21  <planetmaker> my point, yes :)
12:40:31  <V453000> :)
12:41:08  <V453000> DigitalFox: it is interesting if the tracks have some extra usage. For example NUTS has trains which react to the tracks, e.g. on some type of track they have more power, on some type of track they have more speed. But to do that you need to code it into vehicles
12:41:41  <V453000> other than that a track really is just a visual thingy, trains are what decides
12:42:45  <DigitalFox> V453000: I tried NUTS a year or so ago, don't remember that (maybe it was yet implemented or I didn't spot that), going to have a replay with it, thanks for the info, going to check it.
12:43:10  <V453000> yeah that feature is probably like half a year old
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12:43:17  <V453000> 7-9 months I would say
12:43:22  <DigitalFox> ok
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12:43:59  <V453000> still, it is just an example how to make different tracks become gameplay-interesting
12:45:03  <planetmaker> different curve speed might be another interesting criterion
12:45:23  <V453000> myeah but the lowest possible of rail is already quite high
12:45:27  <V453000> would be nice if it was possible to reduce that
12:45:36  <planetmaker> yeah, the possible differentiation there sucks, tbh
12:46:06  <V453000> the 150% of monorail is already very fast, and maglev doesnt even care about curves if you give it 200ish kmh
12:46:25  <V453000> higher values are plain wtf :D
12:46:40  <V453000> hm I could make some special trains for that :D
12:46:43  <V453000> CL1 500kmh network
12:47:20  <DigitalFox> planetmaker: Thanks again for the NewGRF utopia explanation, because I was about to ask in the forum, whether it was possible to load OpenGFX+BIG GUI as static. I'm using a font size bigger than default and the icon sizes like the close button look really small on Menu's at the start compared to a play game.
12:47:44  <DigitalFox> planetmaker: So now I know it's not possible.
12:48:15  <DigitalFox> planetmaker: One less forum Topic :p
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12:51:18  <planetmaker> OpenGFX+BigGUI can be loaded as static, yes
12:51:41  <planetmaker> there's simply no UI for it and you have to edit your openttd.cfg
12:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> would require to reload  the game I assume <-- that works only in single player. in multiplayer it would desync, and thus the date is fixed to the start date
12:52:22  <V453000> if you reload the game in multiplayer it works as well
12:52:42  <V453000> save in date X, load the save on the server again, the graphics are used according to the date of  the save
12:53:00  <V453000> e.g. ttrs roads do that at least
12:58:43  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, $someone decided that railtypes shouldn't have varaction2 stuff, because performance..., so you can only do action6/7/9/D stuff, which changes only on load
12:59:00  <V453000> hm :)
12:59:25  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you can simply change look on date
12:59:37  <planetmaker> just existing stuff changes looks at that date - no problem
12:59:44  <planetmaker> Is a weired thing to do, of course
13:02:30  <DigitalFox> planetmaker: I've added BIigGUI to Static with the parameter 1 but it keeps giving the unsafe for static use error :\       [newgrf-static] OpenGFX_BigGUI_r46.grf = 1
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13:07:04  <planetmaker> DigitalFox, try 2.0.0 from bananas
13:07:25  <planetmaker> there are some versions where I wanted too much, that might be one of them
13:07:47  <planetmaker> I don't even see that version available anywhere :P
13:09:18  <DigitalFox> planetmaker: ok, it's the last revision on coop, will try 2.0.0
13:09:51  <planetmaker> is it? Which link?
13:11:10  <DigitalFox> and
13:11:32  <DigitalFox> My revisions numbers are bit confusing I know :)
13:11:58  <planetmaker> I'm pretty sure that's another version
13:12:28  <planetmaker> but I'll check
13:13:15  <planetmaker> yeah, that's another version
13:15:29  <planetmaker> definitely
13:16:09  <planetmaker> but you're right... that version is not safe static
13:18:09  <DigitalFox> Could be using Zbase also interfere with the loading of BIG in static? I just tried 2.0.0 and now I get a "error in array 'OpenGFX' :\
13:19:06  <planetmaker> no, it cannot
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13:21:04  <DigitalFox> Tried OpenGFX as base and same error, so don't know what the problem is. I'll leave as standard NewGRF then.
13:21:15  <planetmaker> where and how do you get that error? I can't reproduce it
13:21:22  <planetmaker> screenshot?
13:21:36  <DigitalFox> At start sreen.
13:21:46  <DigitalFox> Give me a 1m
13:21:47  <planetmaker> you're trying big-gui 2.0.0, not the version you quoted, yes?
13:22:02  <planetmaker> I cannot guarantee you it working for other versions
13:22:18  <DigitalFox> yes 2.0.0
13:25:20  <DigitalFox> where can i post the screenshot?
13:26:42  <planetmaker> maybe? Though google or firefox seems to classify it as 'attacking website'... that's new to me
13:27:19  <planetmaker> or your dropbox. whatever
13:28:09  <DigitalFox>
13:30:12  <planetmaker> is there anything which is said on the console?
13:36:18  <DigitalFox> Any command I should use in console?
13:37:58  <DigitalFox> By the way I'm sing OpenGFX 0.5.0
13:38:11  <DigitalFox> *using
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14:01:00  <DigitalFox> I've done a lot changes to try to find the problem and somehow it's fixed. I could be wrong but I think it happen to do with the use of " " or spaces in cfg can't really say.
14:02:05  <planetmaker> spaces... are not a good thing to use
14:02:17  <planetmaker> with anything related to filenames and file system paths
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17:33:56  <Wolf01> ciao
17:35:37  <Alberth> evenink
17:36:42  <Wolf01> "To keep a laptop running from keypress power alone, you'd need to write a novel every ten seconds."
17:38:20  <Xaroth|Work> somebody's been reading xkcd
17:45:20  <Alberth> that would be productive :)
17:45:30  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26665 /trunk/src/lang (afrikaans.txt slovak.txt) (2014-06-26 17:45:22 UTC)
17:45:31  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32  <DorpsGek> afrikaans - 12 changes by telanus
17:45:33  <DorpsGek> slovak - 23 changes by klingacik
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18:14:40  <andythenorth> o/
18:15:00  <andythenorth> so
.I need to process lang strings somehow, and give them consistent IDs
18:15:17  <andythenorth> I could:
18:15:22  <andythenorth> - maintain some kind of cache file
18:15:32  <andythenorth> - extend the lang format to contain an optional numeric ID
18:16:19  <andythenorth> - stop nmlc processsing lang during nml->nfo step, and have the final linker substitute all strings?
18:17:01  <andythenorth> - explicitly pass nmlc a constants lang file which I maintain (by hand or code generator)
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19:10:49  <DanMacK> hey all
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19:11:25  <andythenorth> o/
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19:21:28  <Alberth>  I don't like so many different buses, but it's nice that people use the new graphics options
19:24:47  <andythenorth> :)
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19:27:00  <planetmaker> wow, where's that from, Alberth ?
19:27:26  <Alberth>
19:27:57  <planetmaker> oohh! I thought the attachment was the same image :D
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19:35:00  <Supercheese> They have a lot of refit options
19:35:09  <Supercheese> the graphics total is impressive
19:36:07  <planetmaker> they are. very much so
19:36:08  <Alberth> more zoom == more pixels :)
19:36:14  <planetmaker> yeah :)
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19:45:29  <__ln__> V453000: i think czech trains were okay, and especially so considering the price
19:45:52  <V453000> ok :D times might have changed
19:46:10  <V453000> I still think busses are cheaper though
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19:57:39  <__ln__> V453000: the prices were maybe 1/4 of finland's train prices
19:58:10  <V453000> no idea about finland :) but that isl ikely
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20:35:38  * andythenorth wonders if cdist will handle a long train picking up at 5 stations in series, then dropping off at one
20:35:47  <andythenorth> using mostly implicit orders
20:36:06  <andythenorth> one way to find out
20:36:26  <Alberth> if the order is fixed, it should work
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20:45:52  <V453000> emphasis on should :p
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21:03:45  <andythenorth> appears to work
21:04:29  <andythenorth> milk run
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21:28:19  <Wolf01> 'night all
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21:35:51  <frosch123> night
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