Log for #openttd on 6th July 2014:
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00:24:51  <tus_> sorry i am back with another stupid question. does it matter if train stations cover a whole industry or if juts 1 tile of it?
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01:14:41  <glx> tus_: depends on the industry and if it's source or destination
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01:47:58  <tus_> thanks glx
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02:27:49  <tus_> lol so i have been playing for like 20 years ingame and just now NoCab started working
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02:35:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the bigger the map, the longer the AI needs to figure out a useful starting location
02:39:49  <tus_> thanks for the info, good night.
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05:17:53  <Flygon> What's that thing where the bridges don't need heads called again?
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06:01:47  <Alberth> moin
06:03:42  <Rubidium> morning
06:13:43  <Flygon> Menta
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06:50:35  <planetmaker> moin
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07:59:45  <Diablo-D3> does openttd use upnp?
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08:05:20  <Diablo-D3> guess not
08:14:00  <Alberth> you guessed right
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08:51:17  <Wolf01> moin
08:55:45  <Alberth> moin
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09:46:01  <Diablo-D3> heh someone is joining my game
09:46:02  <Diablo-D3> :D
09:46:17  <Diablo-D3> or not
09:46:19  <Diablo-D3> =/
09:46:48  <Alberth> they have to join to see what newgrfs you use, and what other settings
09:47:17  <Diablo-D3> says downloading map took too long
09:49:31  <Alberth> there is some information on that at the wiki, I think in the FAQ somewhere
09:49:42  <Diablo-D3> well its probably because I only have 1mbps up
09:51:29  <Alberth> use smaller map size?
09:52:04  <Alberth> you can pause the game on joining etc to allow new players to download
09:52:18  <Diablo-D3> it autopauses
09:52:27  <Diablo-D3> map size I think is only 2048x2048
09:52:35  <Alberth> "only"  :p
09:53:20  <V453000> XD
09:53:29  <Alberth> what are you doing with that space?
09:53:31  <V453000> please tell me which player is going to use a map that large effectively
09:53:46  <Alberth> I would really like to see a map that actually uses it
09:54:09  <V453000> well I did fit 5000 trains on 256x1024, they were 5 tiles long
09:54:10  <Alberth> 1024x1024 is more than enough
09:54:22  <V453000> so if you used the same density you would need trains 40 tiles long? :D
09:54:28  <V453000> 512x512 is optimal
09:54:41  <Diablo-D3> I restarted as 1024x1024
09:54:43  <V453000> 512x1024 for busy 15company servers is okay, with lots of water
09:55:13  <Diablo-D3> also, I wish I could do stuff like citybuilder on a non-server multiplayer game
09:55:35  <V453000> gamescripts have that possibility I believe
09:55:52  <Alberth> euhm, non-server multiplayer???
09:56:07  <Diablo-D3> Alberth: as in launched inside the client
09:56:24  <Alberth> as single player
09:57:05  <Alberth> you can have game scripts in single player too
09:57:40  <Diablo-D3> Alberth: it didnt let me add them
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09:58:38  <Alberth> indeed, you cannot add them afterwards, you have to add it in the intro menu and start a new game
09:59:27  <Diablo-D3> no, I tried adding them from the newgrf screen off the menu
09:59:29  <Diablo-D3> wouldnt let me
09:59:47  <Alberth> it's not a newgrf :)
10:00:14  <Diablo-D3> then where do you add them?
10:01:25  <Alberth> at the AI/Game Script Settings   (left 2 column, 2nd entry)  below the climate pictures
10:01:47  <Diablo-D3> oh huh
10:02:00  <Alberth> hmm,   left, 2nd entry
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13:59:13  <Guest1240> oh nice incorrect password because i was using my access list.. changed isp ><
13:59:15  <Guest1240> clever me
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13:59:23  <LadyHawk-> hello all
14:00:10  <LadyHawk-> my version of OTTD seems fairly outdated, but i was wondering if there's somewhere i can view the changelog *before* i update?
14:01:02  <LadyHawk-> i have version 1.1.2 right now and interested to see what's different compared to 1.4.1
14:01:08  <michi_cc> LadyHawk-: How about the Changelog link at the download page?
14:01:53  <LadyHawk-> ohh found it.. didn't check that spot, figured it'd list underneath
14:01:57  <LadyHawk-> sorry for being silly, thank you :)
14:02:26  <LadyHawk-> only shows the latest change though, not full log
14:03:15  <LadyHawk-> was hoping to find a full log in the forum but didn't see it
14:03:25  <michi_cc> Hmm, indeed, only to the previous version. The repo has the full one though (e.g.;a=blob_plain;f=changelog.txt;hb=703ce3300823be238db2813b32195139c61fa47e)
14:04:10  <LadyHawk-> link doesn't seem to work
14:04:55  <LadyHawk-> got it now
14:05:09  <michi_cc> WFM, the last ) is not part of the link in case your client thinks so.
14:05:23  <LadyHawk-> thanks very much.. some noscript thing in firefox was messing with it
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14:16:47  <LadyHawk> hehe, doesn't seem to have the change i was hoping for
14:16:58  <LadyHawk> (pbs exits -> prefer nearest exit)
14:17:32  <LadyHawk> instead of 'what seems to be the most direct route to where i'm going'
14:17:59  <LadyHawk> nearest exit, does this go where i need to go? if yes -> use it
14:24:07  <LadyHawk> trains on a big pbs block have the habit of blocking off 7 pbs exits if it gives them the most direct route.. even if all 7 exits lead them to their required destination, they just dont care about exiting the block asap while leaving as many exits open as possible (ie by taking the nearest exit upon entering the block)
14:25:11  <LadyHawk> only so much exit placement you can do to influence the train's behaviour.. the location of where the train needs to go cannot be changed
14:25:40  <Alberth> use a waypoint?
14:26:37  <LadyHawk> the scenarios i built wouldn't work with waypoints.. it's usually cramming 150ish trains on 2 massive stations with raw material transport
14:26:55  <LadyHawk> so 20-25 tracks merging to about 2-3 in stages to stop blockups
14:27:11  <LadyHawk> one trip the train could be in the far left hand side of the station
14:27:15  <LadyHawk> the next trip, the other side
14:27:24  <LadyHawk> dynamic
14:27:39  <Alberth> ah, right. Indeed, waypoint is useless then
14:28:33  <LadyHawk> and since all tracks are connected to the same 2 stations.. it's a little silly a train decides to not pick the nearest exit of a block... but for what i understood, pbs isn't easy to code with the train behaviours
14:28:35  <LadyHawk> hehe
14:28:47  <LadyHawk> so i just check for changes every now and then :)
14:29:13  <Taede> screenshot?
14:29:26  <LadyHawk> dont think i have a saved game with one right now, can have a look though, gimme a sec
14:30:41  <LadyHawk> looks like i have one but doesn't describe in detail what i'm talking about right now, because i've been trying to find workarounds to the issue
14:32:19  <LadyHawk> this one is in early game.. 76 trains mergin to 3 tracks in stages
14:33:03  <LadyHawk>
14:33:37  <LadyHawk> in that one i've been removing bits of track to limit which tracks the train can pick from upon entering the block... limiting the amount of tracks a train blocks when being silly
14:33:47  <LadyHawk> but i shouldn't really have to do that
14:34:19  <LadyHawk> entering the merger block.. i try to give a train 2 options to merge into
14:34:31  <LadyHawk> but i cant cuz of its behaviour blocking too many exits
14:34:52  <LadyHawk> i used to build pbs blocks exiting the big stations but stopped doing that alltogether to work around the issue
14:34:59  <LadyHawk> instead.. stage mergers
14:35:23  <Taede> have you tried removing the last 3 blocksignals right after each junctionblock?
14:35:47  <Alberth> and having less signals
14:35:50  <LadyHawk> so the trains would have to reserve a longer path?
14:35:53  <Taede> and that too
14:36:08  <LadyHawk> the longer path a train needs to reserve.. the longer the distance the followup train needs
14:36:14  <LadyHawk> leading to blockages
14:36:19  <Taede> so the train reserve enough tiles to be able to pass the junction without blocking it
14:36:23  <Taede> before it hits another red
14:36:49  <Taede> yes, but the train has 2-3 possibilities already
14:36:50  <Alberth> look-ahead stops after a number of signals, less signals == more look-ahead
14:37:01  <Taede> if none of them are free, it shouldnt try to cross anyway
14:37:07  <Taede> or it will block the junction
14:37:25  <LadyHawk> i've been playing with the lookahead settings and set it to the bare minimum for the trains to function
14:37:38  <LadyHawk> so trains crawl further up eachothers bums allowing more trains on the track
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14:38:02  <Taede> you dont want more than 1 signal every other tile though
14:38:40  <LadyHawk> trains stop if they dont see a free path, but if the track layout allows them to block 4 exits when the track ahead is open to them, they will do so
14:38:40  <Alberth> any junction does not have a signal, thus trains must  stay >= 2 tiles away from eachother
14:38:46  <Taede> because if you place every tile, like you did in that screen, anytime theres a junction there's a larger than usual gap
14:38:56  <LadyHawk> hm
14:38:59  <Taede> causing any following train to stop
14:39:11  <Alberth> thus 2 block signalling is the smallest sane length
14:39:12  <LadyHawk> Taede you're making a good point there
14:39:32  <Taede> even on coop signals are put at every other tile as much as possible
14:39:34  <LadyHawk> signal distance to be the same as the largest block
14:40:05  <Alberth> you can have longer block, but you have to duplicate the block then
14:40:15  <LadyHawk> ya
14:40:32  <LadyHawk> bigger block = less train capacity on track
14:41:00  <LadyHawk> i tend to cram as many as 350 trains on setups like these heh
14:41:09  <LadyHawk> keeps my brain going trying to find quicker solutions
14:41:10  <LadyHawk> lol
14:41:16  <Alberth> woow :)
14:41:22  <LadyHawk> it creates a challenge
14:41:25  <Taede> <-- second half of that page explains it
14:41:43  <Taede> also that wiki has lots of info on creating high-density networks
14:41:56  <LadyHawk> yeah, been there, copied that
14:42:15  <LadyHawk> but none are effective enough to have that many trains
14:42:30  <Taede> pzg2013 managed 5000 trains
14:42:33  <LadyHawk> with potentially a 0 stop layout
14:42:49  <LadyHawk> other than in stations, a stopped train is a bad track imo lol
14:43:02  <Taede> at that point, you want to look at mergers
14:43:02  <LadyHawk> o_O
14:43:29  <Taede>
14:43:59  <LadyHawk> actually that screenshot i posted shows a train in bad behaviour.. but actually works out for the train behind it *this time*
14:44:03  <Alberth> I think you should try playing at a coop server some time :)
14:44:19  <Taede> you could join right now, i believe there's a new game just started
14:44:29  <Taede> ideal time to have  alook and try some things
14:45:05  <LadyHawk> hehe
14:45:08  <Taede> <-- the 5k train game in question, works best with the actual revision listed
14:45:34  <LadyHawk> i played it online once or twice but people tend to build for profits, which isn't something i focus on
14:45:47  <LadyHawk> so i didn't like it too much because of the required pace the game took
14:46:11  <Taede> coop tends to build to a plan, profit is just something that happens
14:47:16  <LadyHawk> i wonder if i can even load that save without the newgrfs
14:47:26  <LadyHawk> imma go see what happens
14:47:28  <LadyHawk> have a peek
14:47:35  <Taede> read and join #openttdcoop, even if its just for a look
14:48:02  <Alberth> coop plays for making a nice network (upto "insane")  :)
14:48:21  <Alberth> insane in a good way :)
14:48:43  <Taede> hehe
14:49:10  <LadyHawk> boo gotta update.. my laziness has been defeated
14:49:15  * LadyHawk downloads latest version
14:50:07  <Taede> the wiki entry contains a link to the version which works best with that game
14:51:01  * LadyHawk downloads newgrfs
14:51:22  <LadyHawk> and one file cant be found
14:51:55  <LadyHawk> so can't load the game
14:51:57  <LadyHawk> hm
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14:52:01  <Alberth> you may want to discuss that at #openttdcoop
14:52:02  <Taede>
14:52:24  <Taede> but yeah, #openttdcoop
14:52:51  <LadyHawk> thanks
14:53:31  <Alberth> have fun :)
14:53:43  <LadyHawk> will do once i find that file
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16:55:48  <DigitalFox> Afternoon :)
16:59:26  <DigitalFox> I'm trying to decode a NFO 32bpp GRF using GRFcodec 6.0.4 (also tried 6.0.3 just in case) and after it decodes the nfo it crashes when decoding the PNG's files with the error "Decoding: terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::bad_alloc' what <>: std::bad_alloc"
17:00:09  <DigitalFox> It's a massive 150MB GRF so I'm pushing my luck, but it should work right?
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17:22:00  <Alberth> that's compressed size iirc
17:22:23  <Alberth> while grfcodec will expand to uncompressed size in order to create the output file
17:23:06  <Alberth> I don't know how badly it explodes :p
17:23:18  <DigitalFox> yeah :(
17:23:45  <Alberth> wouldn't it be easier to find source code from somewhere?
17:24:48  <DigitalFox> Well yes and no. I know where the project is, at coop. I can access the images but how to download all of them if the there is no available?
17:25:13  <Alberth> clone the repo
17:25:23  <DigitalFox>
17:26:46  <Alberth> oh, it has .htgtags, so yeah, you can make a clone with mercurial (hg)
17:27:07  <DigitalFox> Good thinking :0
17:27:21  <Alberth> I only use repos :p
17:30:33  <michi_cc> DigitalFox: The -h option for grfcodec might also help as by default it will try to decode everything into a single huge PNG.
17:40:06  <DigitalFox> michi_cc: Thanks, but I've already cloned the repo :)
17:40:17  <DigitalFox> Alberth: You're a genius :0
17:40:38  <Alberth> :O
17:40:54  <Alberth> if it was that easy to be a genius :D
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17:41:04  <Alberth> but you're welcome :)
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17:44:05  <V453000> Alberth is awesome without a doubt
17:45:49  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26675 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-07-06 17:45:41 UTC)
17:45:50  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:51  <DorpsGek> estonian - 3 changes by KSiimson
17:45:52  <DorpsGek> luxembourgish - 16 changes by Phreeze
17:45:53  <DorpsGek> slovak - 1 changes by Milsa
17:46:16  <DigitalFox> What do 32bpp masks do? I've tried with and without and didn't found any changes :\
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18:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i hate my country.
18:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> german government vs. us government shows all the signs of an abusive relationship
18:50:24  <Eddi|zuHause> (ones where the husband beats the wife and the wife tells herself she deserves to be treated like this)
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19:04:29  <andythenorth> o/
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19:09:34  <pthagnar> that's a wife with an interesting backstory...
19:13:00  <Alberth> \o
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19:15:33  <Alberth> can someone invent diagonal bridges please?
19:15:53  <frosch123> build a ship
19:16:09  <Wolf01> or fill with terrain
19:17:04  <frosch123> it's somehow on the border where i would build a bridge, bridges are boring compared to ships :)
19:19:48  <andythenorth> I would just fill that in
19:20:04  <andythenorth> or build an artificial island and an L-shaped pair of bridges
19:20:21  <andythenorth> you can diagonal-drag raise/lower now :P
19:20:37  <V453000> :DDDD
19:20:59  <frosch123> and andy is still searching for a usecase for ships? :p
19:22:01  <andythenorth> I am?
19:22:09  <andythenorth> :o
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19:22:56  <andythenorth> also
19:23:00  <andythenorth> has anyone used Squid?
19:23:08  <andythenorth> I’m wondering if it’s done
19:23:17  <andythenorth> at least enough for a 0.1 release or such
19:25:04  <Alberth> aside from the glitch I showed a week or something ago, it seems to be working
19:27:15  <V453000> has no wetrail
19:27:17  <V453000> 0/10
19:27:35  <frosch123> i keep on using fish :p
19:28:33  <andythenorth> you should try Squid
19:28:35  <andythenorth> it has smoke
19:28:41  <andythenorth> in the wrong place, but smoke
19:29:11  <V453000> pfft
19:29:15  <V453000> :P
19:30:02  <andythenorth> something is wrong with the cargo ship capacities at the low end
19:30:06  <andythenorth> but I can’t figure out what
19:36:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> can someone invent diagonal bridges please? <--- been there: Transport,%2023.%20Mai%201925.png
19:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> gnah
19:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2023.%20Mai%201925.png
19:37:24  <Alberth> :)
19:39:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that was my Cargodest game
19:42:39  <V453000> bad feature
19:42:46  <V453000> but yeah diagonal bridges would be nice (:
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19:44:34  <frosch123> huh? i would have expected V to argue against diagonal bridges :p
19:46:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm confused as well.
19:47:39  <V453000> diagonal bridges just add the Option to build them
19:47:44  <V453000> nothing taken away, is just fine
19:48:06  <frosch123> weren't you against signals on bridges?
19:48:22  <frosch123> and refit at stations?
19:48:30  <frosch123> they only add the option to do stuff :)
19:51:23  <V453000> absolutely not
19:51:29  <V453000> why would you build a signal without bridges then
19:51:33  <V453000> or refit depot
19:51:36  <V453000> no reason
19:51:42  <V453000> hence it removes something
19:52:28  <V453000> diagonal bridges theoretically do remove "stupid L bridges with islands", but they would give so many new layout designs that I think this is ignorable :)
19:52:50  <V453000> and since you cant cross normal bridges with diagonal bridges, it does not give a new dimension to build in, either
19:56:35  <frosch123> they remove transfer stations and ships :p
19:59:33  <frosch123> though i guess coop cheaters would use station walking and join the transfer stations on both sides :p
20:02:48  <V453000> :D
20:03:01  <V453000> ships are removed by being ships :P
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20:46:59  <andythenorth> woot
20:47:09  <andythenorth> I won SV with 5 years left out of 100
20:47:12  <andythenorth> pretty close
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20:47:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: want my stats? o_O
20:53:49  <planetmaker> o/
20:55:02  <frosch123> we only do ncg stats :)
20:55:17  <frosch123> but you can start a new wiki page
20:58:16  <andythenorth> auto-post them? :P
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20:58:26  <andythenorth> give GS curl :P
20:59:08  <andythenorth> security funtime
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21:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> just push the stats to the admin port and let something listen there
21:27:49  <frosch123> night
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22:17:39  <Wolf01> 'night all
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