Log for #openttd on 11th July 2014:
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07:06:20  <planetmaker> moin
07:10:36  <Xaroth|Work> mornin
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07:23:56  <kero> hi
07:24:34  <kero> please: is there any way to know the total number of industries in a game other than counting them ?
07:27:38  <__ln__> you could make a statistical approximation by choosing random tiles on the map and checking whether that tile is occupied by an industry or not.
07:29:19  <kero> :)
07:29:55  <kero> Interesting concept
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11:02:58  <kero> is it considered as normal behaviour that the number of industries in game grows over time ?
11:03:15  <kero> (something like +25% in 20 years)
11:03:57  <planetmaker> that can be normal. Depends on several circumstances, though
11:04:22  <kero> I just checked on a perfect vanilla game
11:05:19  <planetmaker> are the industries (all) served well?
11:05:22  <kero> I don't like that. It is a non sense to start a game with very low industries, and see them increase
11:05:37  <kero> In the game I checked, no one industry was served :)
11:06:00  <kero> (i just started a game and let it go)
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11:06:22  <planetmaker> then I would the industry count to drop
11:06:34  <kero> They don't.
11:06:54  <kero> some open up, some close up. But opening are far more
11:07:07  <planetmaker> except power plants. They're bound to stay
11:07:30  <kero> in a game started in 1860, I had 400 industries. 491 in 1880. Without doing anything.
11:07:46  <planetmaker> on a map of what size?
11:07:53  <kero> 1024*1024
11:09:15  <kero> Shall we consider that there is a bug ? Not technically speaking, but at least in respect to what should be expected ?
11:11:12  <kero> Maybee more interestingly: can you indicate me in which source file that kind of issues can be checked out ? :)
11:11:29  <planetmaker> I can't. industry* I'd assume
11:11:37  <kero> I'll have a look.
11:12:25  <planetmaker> there are routines which decide on new industry placement based on current amount, 'desired' amount (overall and per industry type)
11:12:41  <planetmaker> and bonus for no "free" industries
11:13:23  <kero> what do you mean by "free" industries. = served industries ?
11:14:39  <planetmaker> "free" as in not being served yet
11:15:06  <planetmaker> if everything is served, the assumption is - iirc - that more industries are needed to keep it interesting
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11:35:14  <kero>  * Try to create a random industry, during gameplay
11:35:18  <kero> There we are.
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13:27:47  <DigitalFox> Good Afternoon :)
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13:39:12  <DigitalFox> Is it possible that by adding code and the sprite to a base graphics GRF like Zbase the Close Window sprite can be changed to one like for example from the biggui?
13:40:05  <DigitalFox> Or is this something that has always to be done by a loaded GRF after the base set is loaded?
13:43:16  <planetmaker> sorry... what are you asking?
13:44:10  <DigitalFox> Well if I can add the biggui close windows sprite to zbase :o
13:44:27  <planetmaker> you can modify the base set and provide/change the sprite there. And you can always use a NewGRF, irrespective of how the base set looks like
13:45:21  <planetmaker> if you say, that zbase misses a (or a few) gui sprites: that's likely true and should be fixed in zbase
13:47:34  <DigitalFox> Right, but in BigGui the close window is defined like this:
13:47:36  <DigitalFox> replace( 143, "sprites/gui/big_gui.png") { [ 434, 776, 15, 15, 0, 0, NOCROP] } // x for window caption
13:47:37  <DigitalFox> But how can I tell what is the sprite number?
13:47:39  <DigitalFox> In zbase sprite 143 is a font. Using the sprite aligner it doesn't catch it and so no number available :\
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13:58:24  <V453000> lol, never go take a shit until you finished your current coding task
13:58:41  <V453000> unfinished wtf = broken wtf :D
14:00:12  <planetmaker> DigitalFox, yes, that's actually true. The close window button is indeed the X. Which is not the best choice really. And worth a patch in OpenTTD
14:00:49  <planetmaker> it's also the reason the 'X' is cut when using biggui, I think
14:02:36  <DigitalFox> I'm confused.... So you define a sprite like this -> base_graphics spr123(123, "etc...
14:03:22  <DigitalFox> I don't get the -> replace( 143, etc... How does it know what sprite number is 143
14:07:36  <DigitalFox> Or in other words how do you translate the 143 to a sprite number
14:08:41  <DigitalFox> Oh crap I get it, never mind :\
14:10:01  <DigitalFox> So the font X is the close window sprite ah ah wow :o
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14:16:43  <DigitalFox> My confusion was that I assumed that the replacement BigGUI was doing was not on sprite 143 but somehow other sprite number and there was a conversion along the way, I never thought a font X was the sprite, thank god I don't use the default font or my X would look huge in plain text ;)
14:18:50  <DigitalFox> Thank you, you guys are the best :)
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14:37:58  <xintron> For oil tankers, should I transfer the cargo or just unload (for being transported by train to the refinery)?
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16:22:39  <Alberth> evenink
16:24:11  <frosch123> hai
16:28:01  <V453000> hi :)
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17:33:54  <Wolf01> hai o/
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17:35:33  <Alberth> welcome
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17:45:35  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26683 /trunk/src/lang (hebrew.txt malay.txt) (2014-07-11 17:45:27 UTC)
17:45:36  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:37  <DorpsGek> hebrew - 6 changes by oofnik
17:45:38  <DorpsGek> malay - 3 changes by TheITChap
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18:30:20  <andythenorth> o/
18:35:14  <Alberth> hi hi
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18:39:39  <andythenorth> where is cat?
18:41:39  <Alberth> hunting moo
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19:12:07  <andythenorth>
19:12:09  <andythenorth> Mu
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19:14:01  <frosch123> "mumu" means something else in german
19:25:33  <andythenorth> I won’t ask
19:25:41  <andythenorth> shall we make a train game
19:25:43  <andythenorth> ?
19:25:47  <andythenorth> I heard they’re popular
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19:37:05  <Alberth> what about a city-sim?
19:37:10  <Supercheese> A Game of Trains
19:37:46  <Supercheese> Company managers are killed off every six years or so
19:38:21  <Alberth> luckily, I only build new tracks, and move existing ones
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19:38:54  <Alberth> although I play with breakdowns enabled, which is considered to be a deadly sin by some
19:39:07  <Supercheese> not so much sin as annoyance
19:41:56  <andythenorth> deadly sin
19:43:55  <andythenorth> hmm
19:44:01  <andythenorth> I was figuring out string IDs
19:47:30  <andythenorth> probably incorrectly
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20:05:02  <Alberth> andythenorth: fyi, I just pushed 2 typo fixes in the FIRS readme
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20:05:09  <andythenorth> thanks :)
20:05:12  * andythenorth -> bed
20:05:15  <Alberth> gn
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20:22:55  <V453000> Error: Using {P} without a ##plural pragma
20:22:56  <V453000> wat :D
20:23:48  <planetmaker> yeah :)
20:23:55  <planetmaker> check eints documentation
20:24:00  <V453000> I just removed the Ps
20:24:34  <Alberth> that works too :)
20:25:28  <V453000> btw maybe 32bpp does not have to inform about pure white? :P
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20:36:46  <V453000> how many 256-ticks does make a month? :D
20:37:00  <V453000> 25*256?
20:37:07  <V453000> ish
20:37:52  <planetmaker> a day is 74 ticks
20:38:11  <planetmaker> the industry callback every 256 ticks is thus called 8 or 9 times. Depends
20:38:20  <Diablo-D3> whatever happened to that day/night cycle thing?
20:38:25  <Diablo-D3> I remember somebody working on it
20:38:32  <V453000> right :)
20:38:36  <V453000> strange :D
20:38:45  <planetmaker> people who used it got caught by epileptic ceisures and could not continue it, Diablo-D3
20:38:57  <planetmaker> too much blinking ;)
20:39:03  <Diablo-D3> lol
20:39:42  <Diablo-D3> thats another thing
20:39:45  <Diablo-D3> why is openttd time so fast
20:40:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "somebody working on it"... was that 10 years ago, by any chance?
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20:40:38  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: yeah probably
20:41:40  <Diablo-D3> "I currently run openttd 7.1"
20:41:58  <Diablo-D3> that post still makes me lol
20:42:42  <Eddi|zuHause> things needed for a decent day-night cycle: (1) a 24h clock (visual only, or for timetabling). (2) a 32bpp blitter to automatically shade colours. (3) a "light mask" for sprites, which will add glowing effects
20:43:03  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: well, you wouldnt technically need 32bit blitter
20:43:10  <frosch123> (4) and option to disable it
20:43:15  <Diablo-D3> it could be done with palette modification
20:43:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: palette is fixed
20:43:26  <frosch123> day-night and weather are the worst thing in games
20:43:35  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: cant be rotated while running?
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20:43:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: it could, but effect would be instant
20:43:51  <planetmaker> Diablo-D3, doing that in 8bpp is redrawing everything. 32bpp doing that is way less work
20:44:14  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of gradual, which one would expect
20:44:15  * Diablo-D3 <3s 8bit palette tricks
20:44:33  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but you'd keep updating the palette to continually darken it
20:45:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: that might easily become TMWFTLB
20:45:21  <Diablo-D3> yeah maybe
20:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and you won't have access to bloom shader and stuff for glowy effects
20:46:13  <Diablo-D3> yeah that I wouldnt
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20:46:30  <Diablo-D3> and we'd probably need GL blitters finally
20:46:43  <Diablo-D3> so it'd be simple to pixel shade the glow
20:47:15  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway. neither of these 3 things show any signs of happening in the near or medium future
20:47:31  <Diablo-D3> actually
20:47:38  <Diablo-D3> why isnt there just a plain GL blitter yet?
20:47:39  <frosch123> there is night-gfx btw
20:47:48  <Diablo-D3> software renders and then blits it to a texture and paints it on a single quad?
20:47:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: performance was suboptimal
20:47:55  <frosch123> Diablo-D3: because GL is not suitable for ottd graphics
20:48:07  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: on which targets, though?
20:48:14  <Diablo-D3> on fglrx, it will be vastly superior performance
20:48:27  <frosch123> proof it :)
20:48:38  <Diablo-D3> frosch123: its a known issue with fglrx, it doesnt do XAA well
20:48:48  <Diablo-D3> so a lot of plain X11 apps are absolute shit
20:49:19  <Diablo-D3> any sufficiently accelerated app is fine (modern gtk and qt use stuff like cairo which can hw accelerate drawing)
20:49:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: try windows first. then worry about other stuff.
20:49:27  <Diablo-D3> and SDL, sadly, isnt sufficiently modern
20:49:32  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, I dont use windows
20:49:40  <Diablo-D3> on windows its probably fine
20:49:52  <Alberth> proof it
20:49:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: neither do i, but that's what the majority of players use
20:50:07  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, it sucks when the majority of players are wrong =/
20:50:16  <planetmaker> why are they wrong?
20:50:20  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: windows.
20:50:22  <planetmaker> it works for them just fine
20:50:40  <planetmaker> why do you think that your way is right and theirs is wrong?
20:50:59  <Alberth> gn
20:51:04  <planetmaker> night, Alberth :)
20:51:09  <Diablo-D3> well, I guess if they WANT a crashing, broken, slow computer that is a host to a multitude of viruses
20:51:14  <Diablo-D3> windows is great
20:51:24  <Diablo-D3> the rest of us, however, just want to get shit done
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20:52:05  <planetmaker> Diablo-D3, that attitude is just as bad as "how can you use anything else than windows? It's all just so complicated and has sucky user experience"
20:52:46  <planetmaker> modern windows (7 or 8) are actually also pretty stable. Much better than previous versions
20:53:01  <Diablo-D3> I have 8.1 pro in a VM, Im well aware what it can do
20:53:31  <Diablo-D3> I tried running it in xen with pci-e passthrough, and thats still a massive failtrain
20:53:33  <Diablo-D3> thanks microsoft!
20:53:52  <frosch123> anyway, there have been 20+ guys claiming that GL would be great. there have been 5+ patches implementing it, and they all performed terrible
20:54:02  <frosch123> so, sorry if we do not party your suggestion :p
20:54:04  <Diablo-D3> frosch123: depends entirely on what platform
20:54:08  <Diablo-D3> frosch123: on windows there is no point
20:54:15  <Diablo-D3> you're doing the equivalent on windows vista and up
20:54:37  <Diablo-D3> pure 2D apps that cant be accelerated are drawn to a shadow buffer that uses the same methodology to accelerate drawing that on the screen
20:54:45  <Diablo-D3> shadow buffer -> texture -> quad.
20:55:09  <Diablo-D3> on osx, there is also no point, because SDL uses OSX's appropriate mechanism for this by default
20:55:23  <Diablo-D3> and on foss drivers, there is no point, because they properly implement EXA.
20:55:28  <planetmaker> you're arguing based on wrong assumptions, Diablo-D3
20:55:34  <Diablo-D3> its only on nvidia and fglrx it would make a difference
20:55:55  <Diablo-D3> _now_ SDL _should_ implement a flat GL driver
20:56:01  <Diablo-D3> and I think SDL 2.0 finally did
20:56:09  <Diablo-D3> openttd just doesnt use SDL 2.0 yet.
20:56:20  <planetmaker> then write a openttd-sdl-2.0 video driver
20:56:32  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: is openttd on github yet?
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20:57:21  <V453000> btw graphics people usually dont use linux, so unless you want openttd to be just code you will have to be more friendly to windoze Diablo-D3  :P
20:57:36  <Diablo-D3> V453000: well, I think you misunderstood the point of SDL
20:57:38  <planetmaker> graphics people usually use mac ;)
20:57:59  <V453000> that is usually print stuff / photo industry pm
20:57:59  <Diablo-D3> V453000: it wraps all the graphics and sound APIs and exposes it as a single most common denominator.
20:58:08  <V453000> 3D and stuff is windows usually
20:58:28  <Diablo-D3> V453000: SDL also exposes a GL context creation wrapper (ie, WGL, AGL, GLX, etc)
20:58:44  <V453000> I have no idea about any of the shortcuts you just used
20:58:52  * Diablo-D3 sighs.
20:59:07  <frosch123> Diablo-D3: there is
20:59:30  <planetmaker> V453000, nor do I, tbh ;) some graphics extensions, probably supported by a few graphics cards. Dunno
20:59:32  <frosch123> ottd does not use external sites for services
20:59:37  <Diablo-D3> V453000: summary: SDL makes my code run on all platforms because I know how to use SDL.
20:59:46  <frosch123> was created based on terrible experiences with sf
20:59:55  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: they're not extensions, they're context creation APIs
20:59:57  <frosch123> and after that there was no reason to move
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21:00:06  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: GL is universal, but GL never defined a context creation API until GL 3.x
21:00:28  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: so you call WGL, AGL, GLX, etc to actually "make a window".
21:01:49  <planetmaker> and then you only solved it for linux but not for windows and osx ;)
21:02:05  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: uh, no?
21:02:25  <Diablo-D3> if you use SDL as the context creation API, your GL code works on any OS supported by SDL's GL shit
21:02:31  <Diablo-D3> which is all three of the ones we care about
21:02:34  <planetmaker> yeah. Unless you want to start using SDL also for windows and OSX  - and find out that the overall graphics performance of OpenTTD dropped ;)
21:02:46  <Diablo-D3> wait, openttd doesnt use sdl for windows and osx?!
21:02:51  <planetmaker> no
21:03:02  <Diablo-D3> then why use sdl at all?!
21:03:06  <planetmaker> as I said, you base your arguments on wrong assumptions :)
21:03:09  <Diablo-D3> the whole point of using sdl is so you write it once!
21:03:38  <Diablo-D3> and btw, if your overall graphics performance dropped on windows and osx, you're using sdl wrong
21:03:47  <frosch123> make it better :)
21:03:54  <planetmaker> yeah, make it better
21:03:55  <Diablo-D3> but thats not unusual, a lot of people cant read the manual
21:04:00  * Diablo-D3 used to sit in #sdl for years
21:04:01  <frosch123> as said before, you are stating what 20 people stated before, but noone delivered
21:04:09  <planetmaker> you can build openttd-with-sdl on OSX. I tested it. It's aweful compared to the native driver
21:04:13  <Diablo-D3> frosch123: I dont work on projects I use as a rule.
21:04:46  <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: I can output 60fps at 1920x1200 on a rather shit computer running osx
21:04:51  <Diablo-D3> on SDL
21:05:01  <frosch123> using how many objects?
21:05:11  <planetmaker> 1 ;)
21:05:13  <Diablo-D3> no, Im talking raw blit performance
21:05:31  <frosch123> well, you are talking about frames
21:05:36  <Diablo-D3> openttd should only be doing one blit per frame anyhow
21:05:44  <Diablo-D3> due to its use of an optimized blitter internally
21:05:46  <frosch123> which means redrawing everything for every frame
21:05:50  <frosch123> which is not what ottd does
21:05:58  <frosch123> ottd does differential updated of small areas
21:06:01  <Diablo-D3> frosch123: no, it just makes openttd wrong
21:06:09  <Diablo-D3> differential updates is not optimal on modern hardware
21:06:12  <Diablo-D3> hasnt been so for about a decade
21:06:21  <frosch123> proof it :)
21:06:31  <Diablo-D3> btw, the word is prove
21:06:43  <frosch123> isn't that the noun?
21:07:16  <Diablo-D3> no, proof is the noun.
21:07:25  <Diablo-D3> afk
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21:23:40  <planetmaker> he's right about the proof (n) / prove (v)
21:25:32  <frosch123> well, i wondered before typing it the first time
21:25:39  <frosch123> but apparently decided for the other :p
21:32:17  <V453000> hm
21:32:17  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:32:25  <V453000> my grf compiles, but it throws an error when loading it in the game
21:32:36  <V453000> attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 1132)
21:32:43  <V453000> which is sone | snow tile monorail
21:32:45  <V453000> some
21:32:50  <V453000> what could cause that?
21:36:06  <V453000> possible that I simply have too many sprites?
21:36:10  <V453000> I did not even add animations yet :D
21:38:26  <peter1138> i think you need 16 million for that
21:38:33  <frosch123> it's not related to "real sprites"
21:38:38  <V453000> indeed, that is what I thought
21:38:45  <V453000> what could it be then frosch123 ?
21:38:54  <V453000> I did some trying and if I remove one industry, it works
21:38:56  <frosch123> it is refering to industry/vehicle ids and simialr
21:38:58  <V453000> any one industry
21:39:11  <V453000> so it is not some one special industry that would break it
21:39:19  <frosch123> maybe you missed setting the "subsitute"
21:39:41  <frosch123> it may need to be the first thing in the "item"
21:39:52  <V453000> substitute: 0 all of them have it
21:40:45  <V453000> both in industry tile and in industry item
21:42:59  <frosch123> how many industries did you define? :p
21:43:03  <frosch123> there is a max of 64 or so
21:43:03  <V453000> 16
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21:45:35  <V453000> hmmm yeah the last industry does not load if I just let it do its thing
21:45:48  <V453000> coincidentally the last one is the worker yard which is most key XD
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21:57:25  <V453000> uhmmm and accepted_cargos: [[YETI, VEHI]]; cant have 3 things?
21:57:49  <V453000> like accepted_cargos: [[GRVL, CLAY, WOOD]]
21:57:55  <frosch123> it can, but why do you use doulbe {{ ?
21:58:03  <frosch123> err [[
21:58:04  <V453000> idk I had it that way :D
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21:59:24  <V453000> AHA
21:59:27  <V453000> cargoid and amount
22:00:03  <frosch123> ah, for tiles
22:00:40  <V453000> does that mean that if I use [YETI, 1], the station needs to cover 8 tiles in order to accept stuf?
22:00:47  <V453000> instead of 1?
22:02:13  <frosch123> yes
22:02:25  <V453000> quite interesting :)
22:02:31  <frosch123> i believe firs gives all tiles acceptance 8
22:02:33  <V453000> station would have to be closer
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22:02:34  <frosch123> to reduce player confusion
22:02:40  <V453000> yeah
22:02:42  <V453000>  I guess :)
22:02:44  <frosch123> a lot of players fail to properly cover industries
22:02:51  <V453000> aye
22:11:17  <V453000> it works =D
22:11:26  <V453000> the currently biggest problem is the ID error
22:11:31  <V453000> which I have totally no clue why
22:14:39  <frosch123> well, comment out some lines until it works, and then readd them one by one
22:14:51  <V453000> I commented out the whole industry
22:15:08  <V453000> I dont have a sprite for one anyway :P
22:15:26  <frosch123> the "sprite" does not refer to graphics
22:15:32  <frosch123> but to the source line in the nfo
22:15:39  <V453000> aha
22:15:43  <frosch123> in nfo source lines are called "sprite"
22:16:23  <frosch123> it's the "crash address" if you want so :p
22:16:35  <V453000> still the strange thing is that it does not matter which industry I comment out
22:16:41  <V453000> sooo how do I get that line?
22:16:49  <V453000> well the error number seems to remain the same
22:17:38  <frosch123> @calc 64-37
22:17:38  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 27
22:18:14  <frosch123> you could start ottd with "-d grf=9"
22:18:19  <frosch123> maybe it tells you more
22:18:31  <V453000> uhm how do I do that under windoze :D
22:18:43  <frosch123> how do you usally start ottd?
22:18:52  <V453000> clicking a thing? :D
22:19:03  <frosch123> copy the icon, then edit properties
22:19:12  <frosch123> it should have a "comand line" somewhere
22:19:19  <frosch123> there you can add parameters
22:19:29  <V453000> did it through command line
22:19:30  <frosch123> i do not remember whether command line and parameters are one entry, or two though
22:19:33  <V453000> it is loading all my grfs
22:19:39  <V453000> shitload of them :)
22:19:44  <frosch123> yeah, grfscan :p
22:19:50  <V453000> yes
22:19:54  <frosch123> only watch it when loading your test game :p
22:20:36  <V453000> well yeah, it is just still starting the game due to it :D
22:21:01  <V453000> guess having 72 Nuts versions with like 50k sprites each isnt helping
22:22:08  <frosch123> maybe it's faster if you minimize the window or something
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22:24:04  <V453000> hm XD
22:24:09  <V453000> it doesnt like nuts
22:32:10  <frosch123> night
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