Log for #openttd on 7th August 2014:
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11:40:44  <ATS63> Are there a list of ECS based scenarios anywhere?
11:41:09  <ATS63> Or, can someone recommend a fun scenario?
11:41:47  <V453000> Generate Map is a good scenario
11:42:44  <ATS63> Nah. It can be lame. I'm getting tired of having more steel mills and power stations than mines
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11:43:35  <ATS63> I started building a scenario but it seemed like cheating. I couldn't sway myself to make the difficulty anything beyond "extremely easy" :/
11:44:15  <ATS63> Also the road layouts in towns on a random map sux
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11:46:12  <V453000> know about a "default roads for towns setting"
11:46:30  <V453000> and if you ignore steel mills they will die anyway XD
11:47:16  <ATS63> moar mines
11:47:56  <keoz> ATS63 : write some script/code change allowing a better random industry distribution.
11:48:48  <ATS63> ooooh... road layout for new towns. Thanks for that, didn't know
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11:51:03  <keoz> V453000 : ignoring steel mills will let them die, but other will be created and the proportion of steel mills will stay the same. There's a target number for each industry type.
11:51:12  <ATS63> Urgh, this webchat is broken :(
11:52:02  <ATS63> Heh. I got the Australia scenario. Kind of funky. Least I know my way around
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11:57:34  <V453000> keoz: sure but he could still ignore them :P
11:58:47  <keoz> sure :)
12:01:07  <keoz> Actually, I'm thinking, changing that proportion is quite trivial. Well, at least in a GRF as FIRS, written in plain text nml.  Just need to change the prob_in_game and prob_random properties.
12:03:41  <keoz> (that's how I got rid of all overnumerary hotels ...)
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12:25:48  <ATS63> urgh... keeps dropping my connection
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12:48:03  <ATS65> Is it possible to apply newgrf's to a scenario? As in, it has none applied when I downloaded it, but I want to apply some
12:48:33  <V453000> I think you need to start scenario editor with these newGRFs set in main menu
12:51:42  <ATS65> Hmm.... doesn't do it... but apparently I can save the heightmap, and then load it in one I made... I just have to place towns/cities
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13:25:54  <ATS63> Hmm, well thats an improvement... I could probably improve this scenario a bit. There were no industries. So I placed all the resources where they should be :D
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15:56:01  <keoz> mmh ... when making "hg incoming" on several projects hosted on I have a "HTTP Error 502: Bad Gateway" error, while the site is accessible with the browser. What's going on ?
15:56:17  <keoz> (projects: firs and ttrs)
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15:57:50  <Alberth> something is broken? :)
15:57:53  <Alberth> ^Spike^:
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16:01:10  <Alberth> http is not working here either, so the devzone server may be failing here
16:01:32  <Alberth> not much to do than wait for some one to fix it, I am afraid
16:02:04  <keoz> Is not urgent anyway. Was just wondering.
16:02:13  <Alberth> good to report it
16:02:26  <Alberth> there were also problems with the server earlier this week
16:02:33  <Alberth> so maybe this slipped through
16:02:50  <Alberth> or it borked again
16:04:00  <Alberth> spike is currently the only available sysadmin, and I just highlighted him to alert him of the problem
16:04:12  <keoz> Thanks.
16:04:52  <keoz> Anyway. About IsChainInDepot(). You're probably right, I was probably mistaken. :p
16:05:12  <Alberth> ok, so the docs were correct :)
16:05:36  <Alberth> you're going to try using that now?
16:05:45  <keoz> Not still sure but I already had a better look and it seems that the problem I had using it comes from somewhere else
16:06:10  <keoz> (I mean: not from it returning true while the vehicle goes out)
16:06:15  <Alberth> although I somewhat fail to understand why you'd want to wait in a depot, but that may be just me
16:06:26  <keoz> Trams.
16:06:42  <keoz> A lot of trams in a city. They overtaken often each other.
16:07:05  <keoz> when timetabled. And it's quite hard to reorder them properly.
16:07:11  <Alberth> ah, sort of a "fix time table order" thingie
16:07:20  <keoz> Completely about that.
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16:08:34  <keoz> I think it's possible use completely depends by the game style.
16:08:53  <Alberth> timetables are quite useless to me, I service industries rather than cities, and I play with breakdowns enabled
16:09:13  <Alberth> the latter make any form of timetable ..... let's say sub-useful :p
16:09:27  <keoz> I never used timetables initially, I use them more and more with time.
16:09:53  <Alberth> for pax it seems to work nicely
16:10:21  <keoz> Perfectly, even. I think a proper timetabled network helps to have a better throughput
16:10:27  <Alberth> except setting them up is quite tedious, and it fails to handle adding more trains etc
16:10:55  <keoz> there are a lot of little improvments which can help. Waiting in depot is just the first step :p
16:11:56  <keoz> btw. If I understand it correctly, you also find it better to use IsChainInDepot() as way to check train state, as creating a new order type, such as the OT_WAITING that I did ?
16:12:15  <Alberth> no idea tbh
16:12:28  <Alberth> zuu seems to think so
16:12:44  <Alberth> I never looked at train/order code, so no idea what is done there
16:13:02  <keoz> It's quite hard. I find it. A lot of intertwined code.
16:13:20  <Eddi|zuHause> may be time to untangle it :)
16:13:22  <keoz> Order code, vehicle movement code, timetable code.
16:13:32  <Alberth> it's just that the function name and your test conclusions didn't match with my expectations
16:13:53  <keoz> Yes, I see.
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16:14:36  <keoz> Eddi|zuHause : it becomes easier when you understand that to understand how things happens, you always need to start from the vehicles Controllers :p
16:14:37  <Alberth> keoz: everybody build a little extra to the existing code, instead of making a long patch queue for moving it to a better structure
16:15:30  <keoz> Well it's also the first time I have a look at a such complexe code. So, hard for me to make comparisons.
16:15:53  <Alberth> trains is probably the more complicated part
16:16:22  <Alberth> possibly together with network code, but that's mostly written by one person, so that may be less messy
16:24:13  <Eddi|zuHause> if you're going to restructure/rewrite the internal order handling, keep the following future applications in mind: holding patterns for aircraft with either a priority or timetable attached, evaluating the next order before selecting a platform to stop at, evaluating the next order before leaving and staying if returning to the same order, composing a timetable from several partially prepared routes, ...
16:25:23  <Alberth> lol
16:25:59  <keoz> Eddi|zuHause : you have spare time, haven't you ? :-)
16:26:22  <Eddi|zuHause> not in the way you'd like :p
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16:27:41  <Alberth> tbh I have been thinking about breaking up orders into smaller elements. We now try to squeeze everything into a single line/command, but it may be easier to understand and represent if you can write it in smaller partial orders
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16:28:38  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it should probably not result in a programming language
16:28:39  <Alberth> but it's just a wild idea
16:29:05  <Alberth> "if" statements are so tempting :p
16:29:23  <Nathan1852> I have problems with running a OpenTTD Server on linux, could someone maybe help me?
16:29:53  <Alberth> perhaps if you explain the problem?
16:30:52  <Alberth> although it's usually firewall crap, which is router/modem specific :p
16:30:52  <Nathan1852> I put all the files on the server and want so start it with SSH. But i just get bash: openttd: command not found everytime i try to start it
16:31:19  <Alberth> where is openttd located?
16:31:38  <Nathan1852> in an OpenTTD folder
16:31:49  <Eddi|zuHause> on linux you have to write "./openttd" instead of "openttd", if you want to start a program from the current directory
16:32:05  <Alberth> or type /usr/somewhere/openttd
16:32:58  <Alberth> but   cd /usr/somwhere ; ./openttd is a bit simpler to handle, as files that you may need are simple to reach then
16:33:11  <Nathan1852> ok, now i have 'error while loading shared libraries:'
16:33:36  <Alberth> install sdl :)
16:34:09  <Alberth> probably with the package manager
16:35:24  <Alberth>   seems useful
16:36:40  <Alberth> although it seems to assume you are building a binary from source rather than just running the standard program
16:38:18  <Alberth>   this is the list of stuff it loads for the openttd-1.4.1-linux-generic-amd64  version here
16:41:46  <Nathan1852> thx. I got the installation of the sdl lib to work
16:43:35  <Nathan1852> You wouldn't by any chance know the command to install the libfontconfig, would you?
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16:44:28  <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on which distribution you use
16:45:36  <Alberth>*BSD    is somewhat a description, except you only need the *-dev  packages when you compile from source
16:47:13  <Alberth> instead you want the normal packages (without -dev in the name)
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16:51:26  <Nathan1852> That helped me a little bit :/
16:52:54  <Nathan1852> Exept that the command descibed there don't seem to work
16:53:26  <keoz> which one ?
16:54:23  <Alberth> Nathan1852: you are aware that "it doesn't work" gives extremely few clues on giving further assistance, right?
16:55:40  <Nathan1852> Yes, sorry. The command descibed as: "yum-builddep openttd -y" dosn't work, since the server dosn't seem to know yum-builddep
16:56:00  <keoz> you are using fedora ?
16:56:09  <keoz> what's your linux distro ?
16:56:33  <Nathan1852> It is a Server hosted by Creeperhost, i don't know exactly what they use but yum seems to work
16:56:33  <Alberth> yum list fontconfig     <-- you can ask yum for the package names
16:57:00  <Alberth> suse also yum iirc
16:57:14  <keoz> Never used any yumming distro for myself.
16:57:50  <Alberth> maybe you're using centos or RH server stuff, you're in for a big ride then :p
16:58:10  <Alberth> keoz: but it's yummy !  :)
16:58:28  <Nathan1852> the other yum commands on the side worked, only the -builddep doesn#t
16:58:55  <keoz> Well ... Having no clue about it, I'll believe you. For myself, I'm happy with pacman :-)
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16:59:36  <Alberth> Nathan1852:   it seems part of  yum-utils
17:00:09  <frosch123> hai
17:00:36  <Alberth> o/
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17:03:42  <Nathan1852> Seems like yum-utils isn't installed
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17:05:37  <Alberth> yum install yum-utils    :)
17:07:32  <Nathan1852> i just did that. and still don't have yum-builddep
17:07:49  <Alberth> rehash, or start a new shell
17:08:10  <Alberth> your shell is "smart" and it remembers (incorrectly) that you don't have that command
17:09:31  <Eddi|zuHause> one would expect that a package manager would call that by itself
17:10:20  <Nathan1852> Wait. It seems like yum-builddep is installed. But when i call it, it only echos 'No such packages: openttd'
17:14:55  <Alberth> depending on what distribution you have, the central repository may or may not have games included in the package list
17:15:15  <Nathan1852> Which means?
17:16:23  <Alberth> I can imagine that some server-oriented distribution doesn't come with a openttd game package in their repository, which means you cannot install openttd by yum
17:17:12  <Alberth> ie the list packages of yum comes from somewhere, so someone has decided what to add to it and what not
17:17:24  <keoz> The easiest way is still probably to compile it.
17:18:52  <Nathan1852> And how would i do that? I'm sorry that i have that many questions :/ And thank you all very much for your help
17:19:59  <Alberth> follow the wiki page, mostly
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17:20:34  <keoz> Well basically, you need the build tools, such as make, gcc, and several libraries. All of this should normally be easy to install via yum. Once you have that, you get the source, you untar it, you enter, "./configure" and "make"
17:20:40  <Alberth> except the "automatic" way to get all libraries fails
17:21:22  <keoz> You can tell yourself that knowing how to build a software is always a good thing :)
17:25:58  <Nathan1852> Ok, now i installed the fontconfig lib (which created the error bevor) but it still says it is missing
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17:26:53  <keoz> There are several dependencies, listed in the wiki. Did you install them all ?
17:27:27  <Nathan1852> I think so. I called the command in the manually section of the wiki for fedora
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17:28:10  <Alberth> hi hi
17:28:11  <Wolf01> hi hi
17:29:30  <keoz> Nathan1852 : when you have an error, it is better to paste it completely (here or in some pastebin, if it is long).
17:29:45  <Eddi|zuHause> likely it's a version mismatch
17:31:21  <keoz> Or the wiki uncomplete: it doesn't mention anything about fontconfig for fedora.
17:32:26  <keoz> (well, also ... It's probable not fedora, actually)
17:32:47  <Rubidium> it seems to miss it for ALL RPM based distros
17:34:17  <Alberth>   euhm?  /me has it
17:34:31  <keoz> Maybee fontconfig is already those distros as default.
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17:35:12  <Rubidium> Alberth: I was replying to keoz, and the context of it would have been the wiki page
17:35:25  <Alberth> ok
17:35:49  <Alberth> writing too many topics at the same time :)
17:36:00  * NGC3982 hands out beer.
17:37:19  <Alberth> keep it away from V's , or it may disappear very quickly :)
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17:37:48  <Rubidium> NGC3982: did you hand it out to NetBSD devs too?
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17:38:22  <NGC3982> They do not deserve it.
17:41:02  <Rubidium> exactly... they got 4 patches to add ICU, PNG, ZLIB, XZ, LZO, freetype, fontconfig and SDL as dependencies to strgen, settingsgen and depend...
17:41:08  <Nathan1852> I have the version Alberth has in his list
17:44:49  <NGC3982> Exactly!
17:45:38  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26722 trunk/src/lang/malay.txt (2014-08-07 17:45:31 UTC)
17:45:39  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:40  <DorpsGek> malay - 3 changes by TheITChap
17:45:41  <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by
17:46:08  <frosch123> he, why are they not supporting allegro?
17:46:16  <frosch123> and what about timidy?
17:46:24  <frosch123> can't you listen to music while compiling ottd?
17:46:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Nathan1852: maybe thebinary you're trying to run expects a different version
17:49:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Nathan1852: maybe you should search for a repository providing openttd instead of unpacking some random file from the internet
17:52:07  <Alberth>    like the standard fedora repo :)
17:54:54  <Nathan1852> To be sure, what should i do with that now?
17:55:35  <Alberth> if you want to install it,  yum install openttd   would be my guess
17:55:58  <Nathan1852> 'No package openttd available'
17:56:06  <Alberth> which should come with all dependencies that you need
17:56:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Nathan1852: there should be a command to list all currently installed repos
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17:58:56  <Alberth> yum is a little picky, it needs the number stuff too, for x86_64 architecture    yum install openttd.x86_64-1.4.1-1.fc20    or so
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18:01:39  <Nathan1852> Ok, i have a list of the repos
18:01:49  <andythenorth> o/
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18:06:34  <Nathan1852> so, is there a link to the repo anywhere?
18:17:21  <Alberth> hi andy
18:18:47  <Alberth> no idea, I use "yumex", a graphical interface to the repositories
18:19:14  <Alberth> but   may know
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18:20:00  <keoz> Nathan1852 : it probably would be worth taking some time to better learn how your package manager (yum) works.
18:20:44  <keoz> I don't know about your specific distro, but in a lot of them, there are different repository level and you need to properly configure all of that to have some software.
18:21:31  <Alberth>    there is a lot of documentation available
18:22:39  <keoz> You should at least know what repository/of what distro you are using right now, before trying to use another repository.
18:32:03  <andythenorth> where is cat?
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18:34:45  <Alberth> if there are mice dancing on the table, she is away
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18:43:11  <andythenorth> there are
18:43:18  <andythenorth> what should I do?
18:43:55  <peter1138> Charge a viewing fee.
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18:47:03  <andythenorth> €1
18:47:14  <peter1138>  to happy-dude.
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19:59:57  <frosch123> night
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20:16:22  * andythenorth ponders Dear Old Blighty
20:16:50  <andythenorth> I think I prefer This Sceptred Isle
20:16:54  <andythenorth> yup
20:17:00  <andythenorth> That will edumacate them
20:18:13  * andythenorth that will bamboozle the translators too
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20:20:59  <andythenorth> so what boats do they have in Europe?
20:21:04  <andythenorth> big ones?  small ones?
20:22:26  <Wolf01> night ones
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20:36:31  <andythenorth> rotor ships :o
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20:52:18  <andythenorth> bye
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