Log for #openttd on 10th August 2014:
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03:12:58  <ATS63> So I went to the bus stop and waited for 6 months...
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03:17:26  <ATS63> The bus company are outstanding. They may demolish my home any time
03:33:17  <ATS63> Also I love it when I get a plane and we land, and have to wait in the hanger. Its really nice
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04:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause> my irony detector spontaneously combusted.
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07:17:40  <andythenorth> o/
07:19:23  <andythenorth> hi Alberth
07:19:47  <Alberth> mornink
07:19:58  <Alberth> how did the pickle sleep?
07:20:31  <andythenorth> yeah
07:20:54  <andythenorth> instead of changing two important data structures everywhere in the compile
07:21:08  <andythenorth> I wrote this
07:21:09  <andythenorth> condition=" in roster.buy_menu_sort_order"
07:21:18  <andythenorth> which took 30s
07:21:33  <andythenorth> 7 hours of hard sleeping to get to that mind
07:22:01  <Alberth> so that was profitable rest :)
07:22:41  <andythenorth> the world must be full of excessive code written by sleep deprvied developers
07:23:21  <Alberth> code typing is much easier than smart thinking :)
07:23:23  <andythenorth>
07:23:59  <andythenorth> read this last week, interesting
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07:31:11  <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> code typing is much easier than smart thinking :) <-- this is basically a variation of what my professor taught: "a bad programmer will produce 100 lines of code per hour. a good programmer will produce 10 lines of code per hour"
07:31:45  <Alberth> :)
07:31:54  <peter1138> I do end-to-end testing.
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07:36:58  <peter1138> Except in ottd, then I just commit without testing anything.
07:37:09  <peter1138> Why bother compiling even?
07:46:32  <andythenorth> that’s what a compile farm is for :P
07:52:11  <Alberth> I mostly just test whether the demonstrated bug in the specific use case is fixed
07:58:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so what i gather from being halfway through the article is: "if a test succeeds [or fails] a lot of times in a row, run this test less often, to use the computation time more effectively"
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07:59:27  <andythenorth> also succeeding tests cause a false sense of security
07:59:37  <andythenorth> tests often fail to be maintained against changes
07:59:47  <andythenorth> but the test run reports green for months on end
08:00:37  <andythenorth> causes too much reliance on tests passing, verus up-front design
08:01:01  <ATS63> Well if we're talking about bugs... it would be cool if ships couldn't sail through each other
08:01:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never really done automatic testing
08:01:24  <Eddi|zuHause> ATS63: that is not a bug
08:01:26  <andythenorth> automatic testing is good
08:01:46  <andythenorth> over-provisioning unit tests adds a lot of cost, for possibly limited real gain
08:02:30  <ATS63> Well then, it could be a "feature request"
08:02:39  <ATS63> Ships could crash, by sailing into each other.
08:03:11  <ATS63> Airplanes should have the same behaviour
08:04:55  * andythenorth does stupid thing
08:05:36  <andythenorth> dunno why I care about keeping vehicle IDs ‘neat and tidy'
08:05:42  <andythenorth> it’s such a non-issue :P
08:05:46  <andythenorth> anyway, they’re all tidy now
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08:06:42  <Eddi|zuHause> ATS64: imho, that would make a bad game that i wouldn't want to play.
08:07:30  <ATS64> Provided there was new code that made it an unlikely event to occur, I disagree
08:07:52  <Eddi|zuHause> ATS64: especially for airplanes, which easily might fly in different altitudes even though they are on the same tile
08:08:29  <ATS64> Might, except they ascend & descend over the same number of tiles at the same angle :)
08:08:36  <Alberth> let's first start by an algorithm that makes it possible without taking loads of CPU time
08:09:11  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the game actually does implement different altitudes. but because this has no gameplay value, it only does this very crudely based on speed
08:09:22  <ATS64> I'm no science expert but I think that means all aircraft fly at the same altitude
08:09:42  <andythenorth> don’t ruin my ships :(
08:10:30  <Eddi|zuHause> if you watch closely, you see planes changing altitude on approaching a holding pattern, or breaking down
08:11:53  <ATS64> The algorithm for ships wouldn't need to be complicated. Follow the maritime rules.
08:12:19  <andythenorth> ship tile pathfinding is already rather demanding on CPU
08:12:33  <andythenorth> a game with a large number of ships will run your battery down fast
08:14:20  <ATS64> It could be an option that can be disabled in the advanced settings?
08:14:56  <ATS64> The advantage is, it would introduce congestion issues to ships
08:15:36  <Eddi|zuHause> ATS64: but sometimes, even very simple code has very high computational complexity
08:17:48  <andythenorth> ATS64: it has been discussed many times before ;)
08:18:22  <andythenorth> it is on a list of things that a probably never going to happen, like subways and roadtypes
08:18:25  <andythenorth> and daylength
08:18:32  <andythenorth> are *
08:18:38  <andythenorth> :)
08:19:18  <ATS64> hmm... subways would be cool too
08:22:49  <Alberth> ATS64: now you need to come up with a receipt that implements the rules, and works in every circumstance
08:23:02  <Alberth> without taking a lot of steps
08:24:06  <Alberth> unlike the real world, there are no actual humans aboard each ship that understand the rules, and decide what to do
08:25:28  <ATS64> You mean I'm paying kpa in running costs, and theres no human controlling this ferry? I always thought they were chinese
08:26:04  <Alberth> sorry to disappoint you
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08:27:03  <Eddi|zuHause> is this a case of "i don't have a hard drive, i have a bunch of chinese people in the basement memorizing numbers"
08:27:06  <Eddi|zuHause> ?
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08:27:34  <Eddi|zuHause> .... also, can you fix your connection?
08:29:09  <andythenorth> hmm
08:29:21  <andythenorth> should be src/docs
08:29:28  <andythenorth> lang_src is even stupider
08:30:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not a thing i would worry about...
08:30:39  <andythenorth> just ugly
08:30:49  <andythenorth> I’ll ignore it
08:31:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i suppose that falls into the category of "do not touch a running system"
08:31:53  <ATS63> Something like that
08:32:18  <ATS63> I'm trying to find the asian responsible for my connection issues so I may punish them by reducing their rice allowance. Its not even wacist
08:33:20  <ATS63> Whats a good client for windows?
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08:34:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue, i only ever used the one everybody else is using, and i haven't used windows much in the last 8 years at all
08:35:08  <ATS63> I guess I could ssh to a lunix machine
08:35:18  <Eddi|zuHause> and "everybody else is using it" is not a measurement for "good"
08:35:30  <Alberth> just install linux :)
08:35:49  <ATS63> I have many lunix machines. But not on the desktop, no thanks, I like being able to work
08:36:01  * andythenorth will bbl
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08:36:34  <Alberth> I have the problem the other way around, windows prevents me from working effectively
08:37:28  <ATS63> I do a great deal of video encoding on this machine. Also I'm an amateur radio licensee, have about 6 radios hooked up to this machine, the software is windows or not at all :/
08:37:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a different problem. i prevent myself from working effectively
08:37:36  <ATS63> Oh yeah and outlook is pretty cool too
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08:39:55  <ATS63_> Better? I'm a lunix
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08:42:33  <ATS63> I'm an IPv6 lunix... even better
08:45:10  <__ln__> is this something like "i'm a pc - i'm a mac"
08:46:04  <Alberth> yes
08:46:08  <ATS63> I'm a raspberry pi. Eat me.
08:46:44  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe if there were a raspberry tau...
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08:47:47  <Alberth> raspberry τ   :)
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08:49:08  <Eddi|zuHause> ATS63: so far, this did not solve the problem of constant leaving and joining :p
08:49:32  <ATS63> I'm remembering how to use this damn thing :(
08:52:43  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway...
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09:00:22  * andythenorth ponders a Euro roster with 100% inland boats
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09:11:09  <Pikkaphone> impostor
09:11:29  <Pikkaphone> should be a law against it
09:12:48  <Pikkaphablet>  /nick andythenorth
09:12:48  <Alberth> claim all user names starting with pikka
09:12:55  *** Pikkaphablet is now known as andythenorth
09:13:10  <Pikkaphone> perhaps I will
09:13:52  <Pikkaphone> and enforce it by deactivating myself if I see anyone else use one
09:14:18  <Alberth> good idea
09:15:33  <Alberth> you can also supply modified names to that person, that are compatible
09:15:49  <andythenorth> is there a name translation table?
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10:03:25  * Pikkaphone translates Alberth to Jim Fnutt
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10:08:29  * Alberth feels nutty
10:08:57  <andythenorth> Pikkaphone: if there were ship hulls and ship houses and ship holds
10:09:08  <andythenorth> could make them like lego
10:09:17  <andythenorth> what rendereisinginging software do you use?
10:09:27  <Pikkaphone> 3dsm
10:09:41  <Pikkaphone> for renderererererering
10:09:43  <andythenorth> hmm
10:09:47  <andythenorth> no max on macs
10:09:48  <andythenorth> afaik
10:09:59  <Pikkaphone> milkshape for modeling
10:10:50  <andythenorth> I could use virtualbox or something
10:10:59  <andythenorth> but maybe my 3D days are behind me
10:11:12  <Pikkaphone> true, but you could put bits together and I could render them. Or I could just render a lot of variations and you could use the ones you want
10:11:26  <andythenorth> I like option 2
10:11:29  <andythenorth> ;)
10:12:48  <Pikkaphone> 4 hulls, 4 houses, 4 greebleyequipments
10:13:06  <Pikkaphone> that's 64 ships, heaps
10:15:20  <andythenorth> big heap ships
10:15:23  <andythenorth> hmm
10:15:28  <andythenorth> this is where FISH started
10:15:29  <andythenorth>
10:15:38  <andythenorth> I didn’t draw that, tweaked someone else’s thing
10:15:55  <andythenorth> I kind of wonder if the simple boxy style is better than all this realism-shmism
10:16:52  <Pikkaphone> chunky is good for ttd
10:17:36  <Pikkaphone> I should do a boat, work out a scale
10:17:47  <andythenorth>
10:17:50  <andythenorth> do a wooden one
10:18:29  <Pikkaphone> wooden pixels
10:18:43  <Pikkaphone> and wouldn't you?
10:21:38  <andythenorth> I would
10:21:50  <andythenorth> maybe 20-30 ships per roster
10:21:59  <andythenorth> maybe 3 or 6 rosters
10:22:04  <Pikkaphone> that's a lot of ships
10:22:08  <andythenorth> too many
10:22:29  <Pikkaphone> ships on a roster
10:22:50  <Pikkaphone> planes on a snake
10:23:14  <andythenorth> sharks on a bear
10:23:35  <andythenorth> sausage inna bun
10:23:39  <Pikkaphone> horses for courses
10:24:04  <frosch123> someone knows what silly grf causes the effect in fs#6079?
10:24:21  <Pikkaphone> bungle in the jungle
10:24:51  <Pikkaphone> link to fs for the lazy?
10:25:26  <andythenorth>
10:25:31  <Pikkaphone> ta
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10:26:05  <frosch123> the sprites seem to come from vactrains
10:26:20  <frosch123> but the vacuum mail vanm, which is introducted > 2000 has 37 capacity :p
10:26:36  <frosch123> ah, maglev
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10:29:18  <Pikkaphone> I don't know the grf, but I suspect the problem is rail type related
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10:31:32  <frosch123> yeah, looks like a maglev wagon which is compatible to normal rail or something
10:32:25  <frosch123> so, should we remove the arctic climate?
10:32:54  <frosch123> every two months someone opens a fs task, about no forests or farms being available
10:33:18  <frosch123> maybe hardlock "mountainious" and "no variety distribution", unless password is gioven
10:34:36  <andythenorth> definitely consider removing it
10:34:39  <andythenorth> less stuff is better
10:34:56  <Pikkaphone> but
10:35:10  <Pikkaphone> Arctic heart of darkness
10:35:22  <Pikkaphone> mmm, cold coffee
10:39:04  <andythenorth> might do an antarctic economy for FIRSES
10:39:22  <andythenorth> primary industries: ‘nodules’, ‘methane’
10:39:29  <andythenorth> ski planes
10:39:34  <pthagnar> sciences
10:39:34  <andythenorth> cat trains
10:39:37  <andythenorth> ice breaker
10:39:54  <pthagnar> ice cores
10:40:06  <pthagnar> krill
10:40:10  <Pikkaphone> penguin processor
10:40:12  <andythenorth>
10:40:58  <andythenorth> elvis
10:41:23  <pthagnar> shoggoths
10:44:48  <Pikkaphone> small round things
10:45:45  <Pikkaphone> Wokay
10:45:54  <Pikkaphone> time to go home
10:46:24  <Pikkaphone> and either work on uni assignments or on boot rosters
10:47:00  <Pikkaphone> or on the last loco for the 10cc update, I suppose
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10:49:25  <andythenorth> all the things
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10:57:14  <Alberth> frosch123: there are more such dependencies, eg map size vs industry density
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11:04:54  <Alberth> frosch123: finnish set?  has these weird named flat wagons, it seems
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11:14:06  <Alberth> andythenorth: why this snow mobile guy go to the middle of lots of snow and ice, to open a package with an ice crystal in it?
11:14:37  <andythenorth> collecting rare crystals
11:15:06  <Alberth> but he brought the crystal with him :p
11:19:36  <andythenorth> ha
11:19:43  <andythenorth> the lego back story makes no sense
11:19:47  <andythenorth> nvm
11:20:07  <Alberth> it looks spiffy, that's what counts :)
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11:22:49  <Pikka> they don't have to worry about back stories any more
11:23:22  <Pikka> now 99% of what they make is licenced movie merchandise
11:24:11  <andythenorth> allegedly
11:24:31  <andythenorth> also there are no bricks any more
11:24:34  <andythenorth> just one big part
11:24:36  <andythenorth> allegedly
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11:49:15  <andythenorth> livestock barge?
11:49:29  <andythenorth> google can’t find any real ones in Europe, but, eh?
11:52:30  <Alberth> sounds like fun
11:53:09  <Alberth> move MOO fast, it's in a hurry :)
11:54:33  <andythenorth> it’s the Sound of Moo
11:55:51  <andythenorth> oops
11:55:57  * andythenorth should compile before committing
11:56:03  <andythenorth> reduces errors :P
11:57:05  <Alberth> not really, but you catch them quicker :p
11:58:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you disallow transporting cargo because of "realism", then you get UKRS, which is a BAD FEATURE
11:59:06  <andythenorth> yair
11:59:15  <Eddi|zuHause> which you can easily read up in the BAD FEATURES thread
11:59:49  <andythenorth> ho
11:59:55  <andythenorth> a silly small coaster
12:00:00  <andythenorth> I have all these sprites lying around :D
12:00:47  <Alberth> all spread out on the floor :)
12:00:54  <andythenorth> mostly
12:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> motorboat: 5hp, capacity 2 persons (or 1 ton)
12:01:42  <Eddi|zuHause> or 4 persons, 2 crates, 1 ton
12:02:51  <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> all spread out on the floor :) <-- somehow that is the natural state of lego pieces
12:03:20  <Alberth> yeah, used to do that too :)
12:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and it's not limited to lego
12:04:28  <Alberth> furniture has this property too :)
12:04:48  <Alberth> meh, we already have Game Settings :(
12:05:19  <Eddi|zuHause> "Game Settings" maybe should be "System Settings"
12:05:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and "Advanced Settings" should be "Game Settings"
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12:07:22  <Alberth> no, it's Game as in the currently played game
12:07:55  <Alberth> I changed Advanced Settings to Program Settings now, let's see how that looks
12:08:54  <andythenorth> so does the Danube or the Rhine have trawlers? o_O
12:10:04  <peter1138> Settings
12:10:06  <peter1138> More Settings
12:10:35  <peter1138> UKRS, so bad, everyone loved it.
12:13:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if one has them, the other has them too. they are connected by a canal
12:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause> (well, technically it's the Main-Donau canal)
12:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can go all the way from the north sea to the black sea
12:17:49  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: thanks :)
12:18:02  <andythenorth> but do they fish in the river? o_O
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12:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause> are there fish in the river?
12:22:26  <andythenorth> dunno :)
12:22:42  <andythenorth> doubt FIRS will build in rivers
12:22:45  <andythenorth> maybe it should
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12:48:08  <keoz> I don't think there are much fish there, no :)
12:48:37  <Alberth> all the bears caught it!
12:50:17  <Eddi|zuHause> poor bruno :(
12:52:00  <Eddi|zuHause> (Bruno was a wild brown bear that migrated from austria into bavaria a some years ago. and they shot him)
12:52:29  <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r26725 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-08-10 12:52:23 UTC)
12:52:30  <DorpsGek> -Fix: String pointed the user to a non-existent group of settings.
12:55:42  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i thought he was from italy?
12:56:17  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no border between germany and italy :p
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12:57:10  <Wolf01> moin
12:57:17  <__ln__> speak of the wolf
12:57:29  <Alberth> o/
12:57:49  <Wolf01> what, daylength again?
12:58:09  <Eddi|zuHause> no, __ln__ is just confused what's a wolf and what's a bear :p
12:59:22  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe these finns are too urbanized and don't know the difference anymore
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13:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, there is quite a controversity about repopulation of wolves that spread from poland into eastern germany
13:01:54  <Eddi|zuHause> farmers are afraid they will kill too many livestock, like sheep
13:02:56  <Wolf01> 7 sheeps and 2 deers here 2 days ago killed by a couple of wolves
13:03:35  <Wolf01> and at least 6 cows, 2 donkeys and some other livestock killed by a bear in the last month
13:03:49  <__ln__> *sheep
13:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> "the singular of sheep should be shoop"
13:05:19  <Eddi|zuHause> (which is wrong, because it should of course be "shaap")
13:08:52  <Pikka> and the plural of hoop should be heep
13:09:24  <Eddi|zuHause> what is a hoop anyway?
13:10:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i know what a hoof is
13:10:32  <Pikka> a hoop
13:10:35  <Pikka> is a disc
13:10:40  <Pikka> with an hole in it, innit
13:12:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i really have no idea
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13:12:21  <Pikka> hum
13:12:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess they left that word out in english class
13:12:45  <Pikka> the best known hoop is a hula hoop
13:14:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose that makes some sense...
13:14:31  <Wolf01> I always thought that hoop in hula hoop was an exclamation
13:15:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't have made that association. because in german, the "hoop" in "hula hoop" is pronounced with a short u, not a long u
13:16:13  <Eddi|zuHause> as such, i would also not spelled it that way
13:16:19  <Wolf01> we pronounce it like "hop"
13:17:55  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like in "allez hop"?
13:18:51  <Wolf01> it could be, I don't know that one
13:19:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a common circus phrase
13:20:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i would have translated it as "go jump"
13:20:13  <Pikka> hmm
13:22:10  <Pikka> it's all about barrels
13:22:30  <Pikka> a metal ring around a barrel is a hoop, a metal ring around a wheel is a tyre. in german it's all Reifen.
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14:45:12  <TheBix> guys now that we have cargodist, is it not possible to make the user able to configure the amount of cargo delivered to a certain station per month and finally add some much needed functionality to the game?
14:46:15  <Pikka> probably
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15:06:25  <Alberth> how does one need cargo dist for that?
15:06:55  <Alberth> it sounds like something that a lot of game scripts are already doing
15:07:12  <Alberth> despite cargo dist, mostly
15:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i think it's more like "at this station i enter that i want X amount per month, and then cargodist figures out how much share it must reserve for this route on the origin station(s)"
15:23:53  <Eddi|zuHause> which is currently this obscure and not very customizable "demand" function
15:25:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: game scripts can say "deliver X amount here to get Y reward", but they can't influence cargodist to make this delivery
15:25:16  <Alberth> the only use case I see where you want that to set manually is woth *supplies of FIRS
15:25:42  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: true, game scripts needs to be able to influence cargo dist
15:26:00  <Alberth> which would be a good step imho
15:26:02  <Eddi|zuHause> it's also the maximum capacities of PBI and ECS
15:26:23  <Eddi|zuHause> which is currently horribly incompatible with cargodist
15:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> as you cannot say "lower the share for this industry"
15:26:48  <Alberth> it's horribly incompatible with ttd
15:27:22  <Alberth> what's the point of having max acceptance, if you automate it away with cdist?
15:27:38  <Alberth> you might as well have industries without such max limits
15:28:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the point is that you have to service more secondary industries, instead of shoving the whole map to one location
15:29:39  <Alberth> sure, but you don't need an industry set with max capacity for that, if you have game script control over cargo dist
15:30:09  <Pikka> the industry set, of course, predates both gamescript and cargodist. :P
15:30:20  <Eddi|zuHause> and it's not automatted, you have to set the "demand share" manually, if you see that the automatic distribution allocates too much to this one station
15:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i think game script is the worst solution to this problem
15:30:56  <Alberth> Pikka: yeah, but to argue need for setting an upper limit in cdist for such industry sets is thus backwards reasoning
15:31:12  <Pikka> gamescript is the worst solution to almost every problem
15:31:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is that the two ideas "maximum input" and "cargodist" are incompatible. how is throwing another layer of incompatibility on top of it going to solve anything?
15:31:57  <Alberth> I'd say it's a newgrf trying to global optimization without global overview :p
15:32:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not global optimization
15:32:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's completely local to the industry
15:32:51  <Alberth> right, and controlling number of industries, keeping decision to close locally instead of globally?
15:33:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "if stockpile > value: stop accepting" is 100% self-contained
15:33:04  <Alberth> it won't ever work
15:34:03  <Eddi|zuHause> now this works very well on its own. but cargodist gets horribly confused by targets suddenly disappearing and reappearing
15:34:13  <Alberth> stockpile limits are indeed local, and that's fine
15:34:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but cargodist already has this "demand" function builtin, which could help solve this (as long as the total production is less than the total consumption)
15:34:49  <Eddi|zuHause> but the player has no way to influence it
15:35:05  <Alberth> neither does the newgrf
15:35:15  <Alberth> or does the newgrf cooperate in the world
15:35:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the newgrf does not have to
15:35:37  <Eddi|zuHause> the newgrf stays exactly like it is
15:35:42  <Alberth> sure, then give back the global things to the game engine!!
15:35:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the player gets a new interface to cargodist, by adjusting the demand value of a station up or down
15:36:33  <Eddi|zuHause> no interference between grf and cargodist.
15:36:58  <Eddi|zuHause> everything is in the hands of the player
15:37:25  <Alberth> fun, with 3,500 industries
15:38:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but you don't connect 3500 industries all at once
15:38:53  <Eddi|zuHause> you add an industry to your network
15:38:57  <Eddi|zuHause> you identify bottlenecks
15:38:59  <Eddi|zuHause> you solve them
15:39:11  <Alberth> ecs does change the limits
15:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you identify the next bottlenecks
15:39:15  <Eddi|zuHause> you solve them
15:39:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's not the point
15:40:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the point is, that when you get the news message "limit exceeded", you have the option as player to influence your network in a way to adjust
15:40:37  <Eddi|zuHause> which you currently can't
15:41:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot reduce the number of trains servicing the route, because cargodist will still send the same amount of cargo, it will just pile up at some transfer station
15:42:08  <Eddi|zuHause> but like i said, the functionality is all there. it's just lacking an interface
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16:19:56  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, something else about cargodist. it has this "planned" view, but it's entirely unclear which timeframe this applies to. it would be more useful to know things like "average deliveries per month"
16:29:21  <frosch123> i am quite sure it is "per month"
16:29:45  <frosch123> i wouldn't know any other unit that would make sense
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16:37:18  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: per linkgraph update interval?
16:38:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i could probably come up with a dozen things it could mean. the problem is that it doesn't say it.
16:38:31  <frosch123> well, check the station supply then :)
16:38:46  <frosch123> and compare it to the industry production
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16:41:06  <frosch123> <- Eddi|zuHause: those docs say "per month"
16:41:54  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: too many derivative steps to be comprehensive
16:42:19  <frosch123> there are api functions in that diff, which specfiy their unit
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17:28:28  <keoz> Little question: when using a "return (a && b)" statement, can I assume as a sure thing, that "a" will always be evaluated before "b" ? Additionally, if "a" is "false", is "b" still going to be evaluated ?
17:29:12  <peter1138> 1 yes 2 no
17:30:25  <keoz> Perfect. I had a doubt whether it's just a usual or standard behaviour. Thanks.
17:30:36  * FLHerne hates people who exploit that as an extra conditional and then ignore the return value of b :P
17:30:39  <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the rare cases where behaviour of C is actually defined :p
17:31:37  <peter1138> FLHerne, (a && b) clearly doesn't ignore the return value of b, if a is true.
17:32:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember that (borland) pascal had compiler flags where you could turn lazy evaluation on or off
17:33:24  <frosch123> yes, it had
17:34:01  <Eddi|zuHause> also, overflow checking and stuff which C doesn't have by design
17:34:50  <frosch123> {$Q+} {$R+} {$S+} :)
17:35:02  <frosch123> array bounds, overflows, stack
17:35:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. that was aaaaaages ago
17:35:20  <frosch123> today you use valgrind :p
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17:38:22  <FLHerne> peter1138: I don't mean syntactically, I mean people who write a 'bool something() { dostuff(); return true; }' :o
17:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: what does that have to do with the question?
17:38:58  <FLHerne> Which isn't even useful, because you could put it in the body of the 'if' anyway
17:39:41  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: There seem to be crazy people who write functions that always return true, and then use short-circuit evaluation to conditionally call them
17:40:26  <Eddi|zuHause> they could, like, use the comma operator?
17:41:03  <Eddi|zuHause> thing about programming languages: there's an infinite number of ways to do the same stuff.
17:41:33  <frosch123> <- you mean shit like that? :p
17:42:08  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Ooh, I haven't even seen that before. How have I missed that? :D
17:42:36  <frosch123> is down, else i could link you to the crappiest nforenum code i encountered :)
17:42:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the station rating code uses this a lot
17:43:08  <Rubidium> frosch123: you mean there is relatively uncrappy nforenum code?
17:43:09  <frosch123> but i believe i ranted about it before :)
17:43:34  <frosch123> Rubidium: no, i mean some which even stands out compared to the rest
17:44:05  <andythenorth> the problem with ship rosters
17:44:11  <andythenorth> is providing variety
17:44:16  <andythenorth> so many obligatory ships
17:45:53  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that rail_cmd line i'd probably have expressed as something along the lines of "x = a + ord(b)"
17:46:01  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26726 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-08-10 17:45:52 UTC)
17:46:02  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:03  <DorpsGek> afrikaans - 4 changes by telanus
17:46:04  <DorpsGek> catalan - 1 changes by juanjo
17:46:05  <DorpsGek> russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:46:50  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: possibly with an "assert_compile(B1<B2, B2<B3, ...)"
17:49:52  <andythenorth> maybe you just always get a couple of small ferries and a couple of fishing boats
17:49:54  <andythenorth> always same
17:50:09  <andythenorth> and other stuff varies
17:50:28  <Alberth> depends on when your game starts?
17:50:50  <frosch123> just call them roster 1 to roster 5 and randomly distribute the vehicles over them for every release
17:51:43  <andythenorth> plausible
17:51:48  <frosch123> that way you do not have to wonder about their purpose, but let others figure it out
17:51:54  <andythenorth> he
17:51:59  <andythenorth> ‘crowdsourcing’
17:52:04  <andythenorth> the world is not short of types of ships
17:52:10  <andythenorth> but I’m not going to bloody draw them all
17:52:16  <Eddi|zuHause> that is a wonderful strategy if you define your existence by the number of support requests
17:53:27  <frosch123> well, looking outside, a ship may be useful currently
17:54:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably still taking a while to get here
17:54:30  <frosch123> well, at that intensity it will be over in a few minutes :)
17:54:47  <andythenorth> same here
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18:10:04  <Pikka> the perfect grf has every stat for every vehicle as a grf parameter
18:10:29  <Pikka> players like customisation, right?
18:11:01  <frosch123> yeah, but i still wonder how to customise pixel positions via parameters
18:11:21  <FLHerne> Pikka: Yep
18:11:37  <Rubidium> Pikka: wrong... the perfect GRF does exactly the thing the user wants at all and any time
18:11:42  <FLHerne> Then all the pixel colours as parameters, too :-)
18:12:02  <Pikka> splendid
18:12:14  <Rubidium> he wants to play with unreal capacity 19th century trains one maglev... (yay steampunk?)... then the GRF arranges that
18:12:43  <Rubidium> she wants to play with pink unicorns on horse tracks, then the GRF arranges that
18:13:05  <frosch123> oh, i also want the latter
18:14:03  <Rubidium> they want to play together? Then he sees only maglev 19th century trains, whereas she sees the unicorns on horse track. They go at different speeds, but heck... we'd just call it adaptive game speed ;)
18:23:46  <andythenorth>  /me makes that grf
18:24:37  <V453000> watz
18:30:59  <andythenorth> hello
18:31:29  <andythenorth> if I make a river boat roster, should it have sea ships in it? o_O
18:32:41  <Pikka> boo to rivers and canals
18:33:54  <andythenorth> I’m ignoring the speed thingy
18:35:05  <V453000> boo to rivers and canals
18:35:11  <V453000> go wetrail
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19:11:08  <Eddi|zuHause> <FLHerne> Then all the pixel colours as parameters, too :-) <-- you run out of parameters quickly
19:12:19  <FLHerne> The refit window already got abused to support nicely customisable vehicles, just demand more parameters
19:12:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if people want both river boats and ocean boats, they can select two rosters?
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19:40:30  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: only if we find a way to enable two rosters
19:40:39  <planetmaker> good evening
19:40:43  <andythenorth> current group think was a single action 14 param to choose a single roster ;)
19:40:46  <frosch123> hai pm :)
19:40:51  <frosch123> everything broken when you were gone :p
19:41:00  * andythenorth designing by committee
19:41:31  <planetmaker> so world went crashing? Anything of importance? :P
19:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, there are two easy options: 1) a ship may be in more than one roster, so you get a "european river", "european sea" and "all european" roster
19:42:14  <frosch123> redmine went down, spike had to trigger hard reset, but the reboot also had issues. right now, hg via http(s) is still broken
19:42:28  <frosch123> oh, and jenkins fails or so
19:42:37  <Eddi|zuHause> 2) give two selectors, e.g. one for river and one for sea, each having a "none" option. or have all rosters available in each, and don't care about duplicate selections
19:42:38  <planetmaker> uh. meh
19:42:46  <Alberth> jenkins was fixed again
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19:44:45  <Eddi|zuHause> if your ship availability is defined by "climate avalailability = (selector1==A || selector1==B || selector2==A || selector2==B)" then there is no problem with either 1) or 2)
19:45:05  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS does a mixture of both
19:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> there is one selector for each time era
19:45:43  <Eddi|zuHause> but a vehicle can be in multiple eras and multiple companies for each era
19:47:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the overlap between eras is so you actually have vehicles available for a 1920 start if you disabled the 1870-1920 era
19:48:01  <Eddi|zuHause> and the overlap between companies is for cargo wagons and stuff, which were rather unified
19:48:49  <Eddi|zuHause> which has the side effect of you not having 20 different-but-same open wagons if you select "all companies"
19:48:51  <andythenorth> I could do a ‘big’ roster
19:49:12  <andythenorth> I always find there’s no gameplay purpose to including both river boats and sea ships together
19:49:15  <andythenorth> they duplicate sizes
19:49:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds perfectly reasonable
19:49:49  <Eddi|zuHause> (wo are you and what have you done with andy?)
19:51:29  <planetmaker> right... rhodecode is for another day. No immediate clue why it fails
19:51:55  <planetmaker> it's up and running, but not accessible, or so it seems
19:52:20  <Eddi|zuHause> ports were blocked while it started?
19:52:32  <Eddi|zuHause> or other weird stuff(tm)
19:52:45  <planetmaker> and... now it works
19:53:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. i'm that good.
19:58:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the ship just arrived
19:59:29  <andythenorth> river or sea? o_O
19:59:49  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure yet
19:59:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but apparently it took about 2 hours
20:00:12  <planetmaker> I can tell you that there's a big difference between sea worthy and inland water worthy ;)
20:01:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose there will be a few centuries until sea ships reach my place
20:01:50  <planetmaker> well. Sea ships can go inlands. But inland ships cannot go safely onto the sea :)
20:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause> my house is at about 130m, the river is about 90m above sea level
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20:03:56  <Eddi|zuHause> there's not a lot of inland ship traffic on the river either, because the current economic size of ships doesn't fit anymore, and expanding the limiting section takes a lot of monew which nobody wants to spend
20:04:37  <Eddi|zuHause> so we now have this brand new harbour which no ship will reach in the near future
20:04:52  <planetmaker> sounds reasonable. As tax-money sink
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20:05:35  <Eddi|zuHause> well they do have a railway connection, so they are using it to load containers onto trucks and stuff
20:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but it still accumulates negative profit
20:06:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it's better than Leipzig anyway, which has a harbour since ~1830, and no ship has ever reached it, because the canal was never completed
20:08:00  <andythenorth> build student flats on it
20:08:29  <Eddi|zuHause> they started like 3 times, and each time they made significant progress, some war came along and consumed all the investment capital
20:10:02  <Eddi|zuHause> so for the last 70 years they were stuck with a halfway completed canal, and some bridges over flat land
20:10:56  <Eddi|zuHause> some crazy people want to continue building, but there's no expectation that any kind of freight will ever be transported on the canal after completion, so they're hoping for tourism
20:15:31  <Rubidium> are there enough low wage jobs in that area?
20:17:19  <Rubidium> if not, buy them a shovel and wheelbarrow and they can start digging ;)
20:17:48  <Rubidium> here they even "rerouted" a canal to pass a village that had very high unemployment
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20:35:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that method has gone out of favour since the 1930s
20:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> not really sure why, because that went very well back then :p
20:36:55  <andythenorth> bye
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20:48:00  <frosch123> night
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21:16:56  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:14:37  <iCookRice> hello everyone, is there any way in the default .cfg (no mods/patches) to reduce or eliminate trees ?
23:22:36  <glx> you can hide them
23:38:15  <peter1138> they are a gameplay mechanic, not just visual
23:38:34  <Supercheese> You can select no trees at map gen IIRC
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23:48:59  <Eddi|zuHause> and you can disable the growth of new trees in settings
23:51:36  <iCookRice> is that in the .cfg?
23:51:44  <iCookRice> for a dedicated server
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