Log for #openttd on 23rd August 2014:
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01:10:12  <berndj-blackout> is it considered good style to walk or to join stations? i'm still looking for solutions to my bank-too-far-from-the-station problem
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01:14:37  <Sylf> that depends on who you ask.  if you're okay with it, it's okay.
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06:09:17  <andythenorth> no eddi?
06:09:18  <andythenorth> :P
06:20:28  <Pikka> no, eddi.
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06:31:38  <andythenorth> bonjour le pikka
06:32:03  <Pikka> si
06:32:42  <Rubidium> bonjour l'andylenord
06:33:57  * andythenorth has learnt one more bit of ‘proper’ programming
06:34:13  <andythenorth> and is now leet
06:34:24  <Pikka> famcy
06:34:28  <Pikka> and fancy
06:34:35  <andythenorth> I’ve only been writing code for 31 years
06:34:45  <andythenorth> at the rate I’m learning, I’ll be competent soon
06:37:57  <andythenorth> Pikka: and boots?
06:38:46  * Pikka writes a blog
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07:05:14  * planetmaker wishes a good morning and reads a blog
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07:15:07  <andythenorth> Pikka: sometimes I think FISH should have stopped where it started - mini mover by lead@inbox
07:16:40  <andythenorth> I always wanted to make the cargo boat here
07:16:48  <andythenorth> but I had no idea what a date box was
07:16:55  <andythenorth> or even dates
07:16:59  <andythenorth> childhood classic though
07:23:39  <Pikka> good old ladybird books
07:24:14  <Pikka> from loughborough
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07:46:03  <Pikka> doesn't it
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07:50:10  <andythenorth> pitfall #7 - unexpected things will happen if you have been arsing around with “export PYTHONPATH=foo/bar”
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07:51:23  <Pikka> "unexpected"
07:53:44  <andythenorth> I broke your nml
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07:54:49  <andythenorth> fishes is too big
07:54:55  <andythenorth> everything should be 1 tile
07:55:36  <Pikka> articulated ships
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07:56:23  <Pikka> everything should be one pixel, and sprites built up on the fly using articulated vehicles and custom smoke effects
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07:56:34  <andythenorth> I am considering it with custom effects
07:56:39  <andythenorth> procedural generation :P
07:56:44  <andythenorth> voxels!
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07:56:58  <Pikka> perhaps we should all just move to train fever
07:57:22  <andythenorth> oh yes that
07:57:31  <andythenorth> your August 11 boats conclusion is pretty similar to my conclusion on squids
07:57:51  <andythenorth> upgrading small boats has ~bugger all point
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07:58:29  <andythenorth> I’ve even deleted most of the date-sensitive sprites in recent Squid
07:58:36  <andythenorth> it’s weird and confusing when they change
07:59:46  <Pikka> "realism" be damned!
07:59:57  <Pikka> it's less confusing, I think, if there are fewer vehicles in the list
08:01:04  <Pikka> or if their use is more obvious
08:01:13  <Pikka> players don't get confused by passenger carriage graphics changing
08:02:11  <andythenorth> I think it depends who’s drawn the sprites and what they look like
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08:03:56  <andythenorth> I removed this one for example
08:04:10  <andythenorth> which was turning into this one
08:10:12  <Pikka> look the same to me :o
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08:13:00  <andythenorth> one is missing a house
08:13:04  <andythenorth> for realism purposes
08:13:54  <Pikka> how realistic
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08:18:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yay, ext4lazyinit seems to have finished
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08:20:09  <andythenorth> also black ships
08:20:11  <andythenorth> not CC
08:20:16  <andythenorth> realisms
08:20:27  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> pitfall #7 - unexpected things will happen if you have been arsing around with “export PYTHONPATH=foo/bar” <-- makefiles can append to the variable instead of overwriting it
08:20:39  <andythenorth> you pre-empted my paste :(
08:20:42  <andythenorth> where’s the glory now?
08:21:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm level 3 psychic
08:21:53  <andythenorth>
08:22:08  <andythenorth> and then make L11 properly use variables
08:22:14  <andythenorth> and set them in Makefile.local
08:22:48  <andythenorth> and this way I don’t have to migrate everything
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08:25:46  <andythenorth> but I’m going to migrate some anyway, to learn how python 3 differs from 2
08:26:46  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but do that after it works...
08:28:23  <andythenorth> Pikka: Lego boots?
08:28:23  <andythenorth>$main$
08:28:30  <andythenorth> compressed scale, reduced detail...
08:29:30  <andythenorth> also hoverzellepincrafts
08:29:42  <andythenorth> got the fire one, it’s pretty good
08:29:49  <andythenorth> didn’t get this one, got enough probly
08:31:36  <Pikka> probably
08:34:16  <Pikka> I only had
08:34:27  <Pikka> and of course
08:38:05  <andythenorth> pirates :o
08:38:07  <andythenorth> lucky Pikka
08:38:35  <Pikka> I had it considerably second-hand
08:38:54  <andythenorth> I had only
08:39:00  <andythenorth> but now I have paypal
08:39:02  <peter1138> yay, lego when lego was proper lego
08:39:02  <andythenorth> and internets
08:39:28  <andythenorth> peter1138: you mean 8bpp?
08:39:37  <peter1138> :S
08:40:41  <andythenorth> no anti-aliasing
08:40:58  <peter1138> that cabin on thje new one is looking like a one-piece part
08:41:19  <andythenorth> on the hoverzellepiin?
08:42:15  <peter1138> on 7944 and 7045
08:43:02  <peter1138> proper lego: lego where you had to build things with lego bricks, instead of using preformed objects
08:43:14  <peter1138> besides horses and bikes
08:43:46  <Pikka> those boat hulls were pretty preformed
08:43:53  <peter1138> yeah true
08:44:03  <peter1138> but that's so we could pretend they'd be watertight
08:44:16  <andythenorth> they never were :P
08:44:16  <Pikka> 4010 was, it floated
08:44:26  <Pikka> and had a clip on the bottom for a motor
08:44:58  <andythenorth> I am still shocked about doors
08:45:04  <andythenorth> what’s wrong with brick built doors?
08:45:06  <andythenorth> and slopes
08:45:09  <andythenorth> why use slopes?
08:45:15  <andythenorth> you can just put bricks on an offset
08:45:34  <andythenorth> and wheels, they’re cheating
08:47:48  <peter1138> ./ban andythenorth
08:48:10  <Pikka> also, there are no colours except black, white, red, blue, yellow, and twenty shades of discoloured grey.
08:49:02  <andythenorth> green
08:49:06  <andythenorth> but only baseplates
08:49:11  <andythenorth> and trees
08:49:12  <peter1138> and trees
08:49:15  <peter1138> and flower bases
08:49:42  <peter1138> look, i don't mind new parts or colours or whatever
08:49:56  <peter1138> but when large parts of something is a preformed complex shape... no
08:52:37  <andythenorth> makes a nice train though isn’t it
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08:55:32  <Pikka> taking the preformed parts and doing something different with them is always good fun
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09:02:27  <Wolf01> hi hi
09:03:43  <andythenorth> Pikka: what colour you painting your boots?
09:03:56  <Pikka> don't know yet
09:04:10  <Pikka> black in olden tiems and less black in newer tiems?
09:09:39  <andythenorth> praps
09:09:46  <andythenorth> makes buy menu unpleasing though
09:10:43  <andythenorth> pleasing:
09:10:51  <andythenorth> unpleasing
09:22:47  <andythenorth> bbl
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10:44:38  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26755 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2014-08-23 10:44:32 UTC)
10:44:39  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26747) [FS#6093]: Silence MSVC warning.
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11:55:47  <Rubidium> is there anyone with a clue of train tickets in the UK, especially near London? Do I need to request something special when trying to buy a ticket from St. Pancras to Newbury and from Newbury to South Kensington, or do I need to buy the tube tickets separately?
11:56:29  <Rubidium> the national rail site isn't really clear on it
11:58:25  <Rubidium> mostly because buying tickets as a foreigner is a PITA as well
12:02:15  <LordAro> no one understands the UK rail ticket system
12:05:57  <LordAro> i'm not entirely sure, but i'd assume the tube tickets are included
12:07:44  <LordAro> Rubidium, implies yes, tickets included
12:07:46  <LadyHawk> i live in the uk but i dont have much of a clue
12:07:59  <LadyHawk> i remember jumping on a train cuz i couldnt buy a ticket at the station
12:08:07  <LordAro> LadyHawk, i was in London yesterday and i don't know :p
12:08:10  <LadyHawk> only to find out i couldnt get OFF the station at my destination
12:08:23  <LadyHawk> had t obuy a ticket there
12:08:24  <LadyHawk> doh
12:08:29  <LordAro> LadyHawk, those are the most fun of journeys :)
12:09:40  <Rubidium> LordAro: that page has me still puzzling
12:09:49  <LadyHawk> i'd guess you can look and see if you can buy 1 ticket from start to finish.. but if someone tells you you can't, or the machine doesn't let you, then buy seperate
12:09:58  <LadyHawk> if you buy ticket on the train it'll cost more, but you can
12:10:08  <LadyHawk> as for tube.. prolly same
12:10:13  <LadyHawk> dunno
12:10:20  <LordAro> Rubidium, :p
12:10:37  <Rubidium> "'London Terminal' stations" is the most flabbergasting thing
12:10:59  <LordAro> Rubidium, if you want to be absolutely sure, add a day travelcard to the fare, and that'll get you anywhere on the underground
12:11:11  <LadyHawk> any big station is flabbergasting
12:11:13  <LadyHawk> to me
12:11:14  <LadyHawk> lol
12:11:22  <LadyHawk> i get lost in those places :)
12:11:31  <LadyHawk> << got no pidgeon homing instinct
12:11:32  <Rubidium> so... it's any of those terminal stations in london provided you don't need to pass through or around London or something like that
12:11:58  <LordAro> actually, looking at the route, you can't add a travelcard, so it must indeed be already included
12:14:15  <Rubidium> I guess the South Kensington area has enough for me to do on a Friday evening to not need a travelcard
12:14:30  <LordAro> well, that's probably true
12:14:47  <LordAro> although all the museums are closed by 18:30
12:15:08  <LadyHawk> similarly flabbergasting in holland.. last time i was there, i went to buy a ticket from the station's ticket machine. it didn't accept my card, so jumped on train without ticket. guy comes round, try to buy ticket from him but was charged so much extra i didn't have the cash. was told get off the train at <STATIONNAME>, there's a ticket office there. so i did.... ticket office was closed.
12:15:08  <LadyHawk> got on the next train and got to where i was going without a ticket
12:15:41  <LadyHawk> even people that work there dont have a clue!
12:16:07  <LordAro> LadyHawk, as long as the station at the other end doesn't have gates, you can always do that
12:16:13  <LordAro> but it's rather un-British ;)
12:16:17  <Rubidium> yeah, those machines didn't accept credit cards since barely anyone uses them in the Netherlands
12:16:51  <LadyHawk> i got lucky, all gates there worked except for 1 that was open & everyone used that one
12:16:56  <Rubidium> now the machines apparantly accept credit cards
12:17:01  <LadyHawk> i got a visa DEBIT card.. no credit card
12:17:04  <LadyHawk> silly thing
12:17:36  <LadyHawk> visa isnt widely used or anything </sarcasm> so lets not accept it
12:17:40  <LadyHawk> lol
12:18:30  <LadyHawk> but yeah if ur clueless about what ticket to get.. just hop on without a ticket.. when bloke comes round asking for ticket, buy one off him.. he'll know which one you need
12:18:50  <LadyHawk> no biggy
12:19:03  <Rubidium> well, it's not really sarcasm... but visa or mastercard are barely used here and as such barely accepted
12:19:15  <LadyHawk> ahh
12:19:30  <LadyHawk> didn't know that :)
12:19:58  <Rubidium> and if it is supported, they often ask for extra fees compared to the maestro cards
12:20:28  <LadyHawk> makes sense asking for fees on things you have no choice but to get
12:20:54  <Rubidium> why don't you have a choice?
12:21:02  <LadyHawk> if it's the only thing you have
12:21:08  <LadyHawk> you dont have a choice
12:21:09  <Rubidium> any Dutch bank gives out maestro cards
12:21:32  <LadyHawk> but if you visit another country you're not going to request a bank card specifically for that country
12:22:02  <Rubidium> and having a visa/mastercard costs more than you pay your bank for having an account, all the wire-transfers you want and the maestro card
12:22:36  <LadyHawk> hmmm, what?
12:22:43  <LadyHawk> what do you mean, higher fees or something?
12:23:34  <LadyHawk> i'm not exactly an expert on those kind of things, but what you're saying here sounds interesting
12:23:49  <Rubidium> yeah, for a mastercard creditcard I have to pay about EUR 18 per year, for my bank account + maestro I pay EUR 15 per year (with free bank transfers using IBAN and EUR)
12:24:44  <Rubidium> not to mention the fee for withdrawing money from the mastercard thing compared to no fee for the maestro (for EUR)
12:24:59  <LadyHawk> interesting
12:25:10  <LadyHawk> im not sure if i'm paying anything for my normal bank (visa debit)
12:25:37  <LadyHawk> free transfers, including with IBAN, all i know i'm paying for is the conversion from GBP to EUR
12:25:46  <LadyHawk> which is fairly high compared to the standard conversion rates
12:25:54  <frosch123> here most bank accounts are free if you store your main earnings on them
12:26:26  <frosch123> that is some minimum transfers towards them per month, though it does not matter how much you transfer away again :p
12:26:59  <frosch123> other account types have no fees if there is some minimum average balance on the account
12:27:11  <frosch123> which is essentially the same, but less dubious
12:27:31  <LadyHawk> you got similar things here
12:27:46  <LadyHawk> usually as an 'upgraded' bank account with pointless features on them
12:28:01  <LadyHawk> keep x amount of money in there, (bout £2000 or summat) and there's no fees
12:28:13  <LadyHawk> i dont have that
12:28:20  <LadyHawk> im not rich enough lol
12:29:46  <LadyHawk> but i'm going to keep an eye out in the future now about those fees & other strings attached.. didn't realise there's a fair amount of differences
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12:29:53  <LadyHawk> thanks for sharing :)
12:30:04  <frosch123> well, if you consider normal interest rates, you also end up with rb's 15€
12:32:33  <Rubidium> here there are some banks that give you a lower mortgage interest rate when your salary is put on the bank account at their bank
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12:41:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i used to have a free account, but then my student status ran out
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12:50:59  <andythenorth> frosch123: nml effects patch does everything I expected afaict
12:51:04  <andythenorth> commit it?
12:52:59  <frosch123> did you also use the create_effect function inside the switch?
12:54:22  <andythenorth> no, looks like I”m returning bytes
12:57:11  * andythenorth eating
12:57:18  <andythenorth> will test in a minute
12:57:38  <andythenorth> planetmaker: hi hi, can talk?
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13:11:47  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
13:12:16  <Alberth> moin andy
13:12:31  <andythenorth> frosch123: do I miss something here?
13:12:44  <andythenorth> previous version with hex values worked
13:13:00  <andythenorth> maybe I have parentheses wrong or such?
13:14:38  <frosch123> nah, that's exactly why i wanted you to test it :)
13:21:05  <frosch123> <- does that work better?
13:23:25  * andythenorth tests
13:24:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: compiles
13:24:53  <andythenorth> testing in game now
13:25:40  <andythenorth> works afaict
13:25:52  <andythenorth> when I start putting smoke in proper positions I’ll have more data :)
13:26:17  <andythenorth> next I need to figure out how bundles can build a project with python 2 and python 3 components
13:26:32  <andythenorth> frosch123: commit all the things? o_O
13:29:43  <frosch123> pushed
13:31:25  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26756 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2014-08-23 13:31:20 UTC)
13:31:26  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26747): Ground vehicle breakdown smoke was not supposed to be available yet, since it is a looping animation.
13:33:53  <frosch123> V453000: you can now make trains emit the black aircraft smoke. so if you want the moody trains to emit black smoke, or the zebra slug to emit zebra smoke, ...
13:37:41  <andythenorth> yay black smoke for steam ships
13:38:24  <andythenorth> the breakdown smoke gives an
.interesting effect
13:38:44  <andythenorth> doesn’t clear :D
13:38:45  <Alberth> sparkles and sprinkles!
13:39:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: exactly why i just removed it
13:39:09  <frosch123> i knew about that, but forgot it :p
13:39:29  <andythenorth>
13:39:38  <andythenorth> I didn’t pull yet ;)
13:40:18  <Alberth> nice for tracking route used by the ship
13:40:24  <andythenorth> electric ship looks nice
13:40:28  <andythenorth> bit like a waterspout
13:40:43  <andythenorth> might be good for hoverzellepins
13:45:50  <LordAro> i think your ship has a leak
13:46:06  <frosch123> leaking effect vehicles :p
13:55:25  <keoz> that's pretty
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13:57:09  <McxCZE> Hi Guys.
13:58:06  <McxCZE> Need help, I have dedicated OpenTTD server on Ubuntu terminal and I am using frodus openttd to start it and manage, However everything is fine, One problem, After tonight the server Bankrupts all the companies I have been with my friends building up basically overnight.
13:58:38  <frosch123> check autoclean settings
13:58:47  <McxCZE> In Openttd cfg ?
13:58:51  <frosch123> yes
13:59:14  <frosch123> there are settings to remove companies without active clients after some game months
13:59:27  <Zuu> If autosave is enabled, you can possible find a save with the companies non-deleted.
13:59:28  <frosch123> though you may also consider enabling to pause the game when no clients are around
13:59:40  <McxCZE> Yeah, that would be nice too.
13:59:51  <McxCZE> How do I set it up in cfg ? Cause the Cfg help in wiki is quite hectic.
14:00:44  <frosch123>
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14:01:22  <frosch123> only edit the config file directly, while ottd is not running, else it will overwrite the config again when exiting
14:01:25  <McxCZE> autoclean companies.
14:01:27  <McxCZE> true
14:01:30  <McxCZE> Ha false setted up.
14:01:39  <frosch123> though you can also change them ingame while the server is running
14:01:43  <McxCZE> yep used frodus to stop it.
14:01:51  <McxCZE> Yeah ?
14:01:58  <McxCZE> So I dont have to SSH to my ubuntu to change it ?
14:02:09  <frosch123> no, setup a rcon password
14:02:18  <frosch123> and you can use the ottd client
14:02:41  <McxCZE> admin_password ?
14:02:51  <McxCZE> Thats what I use to join the RCON through the TTD client ?
14:03:16  <McxCZE> Found it.
14:03:16  <frosch123> no, rcon_pw or similar
14:03:18  <McxCZE> RCON Password.
14:03:50  <frosch123> if you have set a password, you can open the in-game console with the key left to "1" (usually ^ or ~)
14:04:15  <frosch123> and use: rcon password "set min_active_clients 5"
14:04:18  <frosch123> and similar
14:04:37  * andythenorth has silly ideas
14:06:13  <andythenorth> also I’d better learn how hg works
14:06:49  <andythenorth> I’m on default branch, I want to commit to smoke branch, I have uncommitted changes
14:06:56  <andythenorth> only solution I see is to save a patch
14:07:25  <frosch123> i would use mq :)
14:07:45  <frosch123> hg qnew meh.diff -m "Boo"
14:07:53  <frosch123> hg qpop
14:07:58  <frosch123> hg branch hoo
14:08:04  <frosch123> hg qfinish -a
14:08:29  <frosch123> or "hg qpush" if you do not want to commit immediately
14:08:36  <keoz> andythenorth: takes a little moment initially to understand how it works, but when you get it, it's a pleasure
14:08:37  <andythenorth> I am reading this to try and understand the tool I’m using :P
14:08:50  <andythenorth> I’ve been using hg much longer than git, but never understood it
14:09:10  <keoz> I converted every project I'm working on in hg repositories
14:09:18  <andythenorth> :)
14:10:02  <keoz> and mqueues rox
14:10:51  <andythenorth> I could just do this in default, and break bundles server
14:11:10  <keoz> andythenorth:
14:11:17  <keoz> that one is really good to start with
14:11:41  <andythenorth> I read that about 5 years ago :)
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14:11:57  <keoz> well, you're used to it then :p
14:12:10  <andythenorth> hg is great for people who don’t understand vcs
14:12:18  <andythenorth> the problem is I now understand just enough to be dangerous
14:12:24  <andythenorth> and I’ve been using a lot of git
14:12:28  <keoz> also for people who never tried to understand it :p
14:12:42  <keoz> hg is the first versioning system I'm using
14:12:49  <McxCZE> Guys one more Question. How to save and autoload map on server start ?
14:12:54  <andythenorth> frosch123: seems appropriate
14:12:57  <McxCZE> Plus where do I find autopause.
14:13:05  <McxCZE> in Openttd cfg when there is no players.
14:13:23  <keoz> nice picture
14:13:45  <keoz> I'm always amazed seeing those weird US long train with a lot of engines :p
14:13:53  <Taede> autopause: set min_active_clients to 1 (or more)
14:14:15  <Taede> on server start, do you mean when server starts from command line, or when server restarts?
14:15:09  <McxCZE> server restarts and there is a symlink created from frodus in the /etc/init.d/openttd
14:15:43  <McxCZE> So it should automatically start, but will it load the previous map ?
14:16:02  <Taede> no, but you can supply a savegame with -g commandline parameter
14:16:03  <McxCZE> In case of Power Failure or so ?
14:16:15  <McxCZE> Automatically ?
14:16:39  <Taede> no, you'd have to supply the savegame as a parameter
14:16:57  <Taede> there's no built-in way to load last autosave afaik
14:22:22  <McxCZE> Ok.
14:22:45  <McxCZE> I believe it wont be necessary since that 1U server I am now restarting hasnt been restarted or powered down fro 325 days.
14:22:58  <andythenorth> maybe I need hg shelve
14:23:58  <Taede> what os?
14:24:11  <andythenorth> frick, merge conflicts :(
14:24:15  <McxCZE> Ubuntu server OS. Stripped down, basically nothing added.
14:24:39  <McxCZE> Installed SSH, Warcraft Server, Mysql, OpenTTD.
14:24:44  <McxCZE> Unzip.
14:24:46  <Taede> <-- should do what you want, though it may be a bit overkill
14:24:49  <Taede> written in python
14:24:51  <McxCZE> And some dependecies to compile OpenTTD
14:25:15  <andythenorth> hg must have some equivalent to mergetool
14:27:02  <Alberth> it mostly has hooks for 3rd-party tools, iirc
14:27:23  <andythenorth> I should learn about them
14:27:40  <andythenorth> every time I try to use branches in hg, I give up because of merges
14:28:07  <Alberth> the trick with branches is not to mess in the same area of the code
14:28:54  <andythenorth> :)
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14:29:11  <andythenorth> that must be fun in collaborative projects
14:29:47  <Alberth> if standard merging fails, I just drop down to a text editor and merge things manually, doesn't happen often
14:30:17  <Alberth> "collaborative" does not mean you have no idea where other make a mess :)
14:30:58  <Alberth> manual merging is also quite feasible if you have a nice editor like gvimdiff
14:31:27  <Alberth> I often use that to move changes for some features into a sanely ordered stack of patches
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14:32:50  <Alberth> ie make a clone, hack at random until you have something you like
14:33:09  <andythenorth> you should see my git branch tree :P
14:33:23  <andythenorth> branch, try something, have another idea, branch again, branch again
14:33:28  <andythenorth> merge, merge, merge, reset, merge :P
14:33:36  <Alberth> then make a fresh clone, and open each changed file of the hacked clone against the same file in the new clone, and copy changes
14:34:00  <Alberth> yeah, git wants to do all crap in the same repo
14:34:05  <Alberth> but cloning is cheap
14:34:28  <Alberth> and it makes changes more independent, if you have a clone for each change
14:34:32  <andythenorth> I think svn -> hg -> git was a good learning order for me
14:34:39  <andythenorth> hg is *so* much better than svn
14:34:47  <Zuu> Git make it hard to produce a nice history by lacking queues.
14:34:56  <andythenorth> but hg has given me a healthy respect for the good and bad sides of git
14:35:34  * Zuu has also made the svn -> hg -> git path
14:35:43  <Alberth> you don't need queues if you do rebasing
14:36:06  <andythenorth> rebasing is terrifying :)
14:36:11  <Alberth> but for me rebasing is too ugly and complicated
14:36:48  <Zuu> I tried to learn rebasing and cherry picking, but it feels so complicated compared to hg queues.
14:36:53  <Alberth> being terryfing doesn't stop people from it, apparently
14:40:11  <Alberth> hmm, stl sets use comparator function objects, how ugly :(
14:42:43  <andythenorth> seems to be quite tricky to configure a mergetool for hg
14:42:52  <andythenorth> needs shell scripts, and extra extensions
14:44:10  <Alberth> yeah, I configured it to try its internal things, and otherwise give up
14:44:52  <Alberth> most times, I don't understand the merge tool anyway
14:45:18  <andythenorth> I’m just going to make a new branch
14:45:32  <andythenorth> too much time configuring stuff, not enough time making stuff :(
14:45:46  <andythenorth> trying to do things right is really quite time consuming
14:45:52  <andythenorth> as is fixing things done wrong :P
14:46:13  <Alberth> yep, but the latter stays if you don't do the former
14:46:49  * andythenorth wonders what a hg bookmark is
14:47:05  <frosch123> a local tag
14:47:07  <andythenorth> branch nags me about them
14:47:11  <frosch123> (iirc)
14:47:15  <andythenorth> implies I am Doing Something Wrong
14:48:45  <Alberth> assuming a bookmark is just a revision, it is probably nagging about bookmarks at the wrong branch
14:49:19  <andythenorth> it says I should use them
14:49:22  <andythenorth> not branches
14:49:31  <Alberth> oh, could be
14:49:49  <andythenorth> oic
14:49:58  <Alberth> I just clone a new copy for each branch
14:50:00  <andythenorth> bundles builds all branches :)
14:50:06  <andythenorth> so now bundles is failing and nagging
14:50:40  <andythenorth> what larks :)
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14:51:33  <andythenorth> hmm
14:51:37  <andythenorth> could we animate trees?
14:51:43  <andythenorth> that would be a good use of CPU :P
14:51:51  <andythenorth> they would sway in the wind
14:53:58  <keoz> Alberth: why do you copy/past from your hacked clone to a fresh one, instead of just commit and push from the hacked one ?
14:55:52  <Alberth> keoz: the order of making changes to reach some functionality is very not logical, so I need to regroup and re-order the changes
14:56:07  <Alberth> also leave non-essential changes out, etc
14:56:51  <Alberth> so I write each patch about 3-4 times.
14:57:42  <Alberth> once or twice for an attempt that fails eventually, one time for a working attempt, one time for a sanely ordered logical stack of changes, worthy of trunkifying
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14:58:37  <Alberth> then comes review, which usually at least makes minor changes, but often also "yeah, looks nice, but ..." and you're back at square one :)
14:58:38  <keoz> oh, ok
14:59:17  <andythenorth> PYTHONPATH2=../../lib/python2.6/site-packages
14:59:18  <andythenorth> PYTHON2=python2.7
14:59:30  <andythenorth> I’m defining those in Makefile.local
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14:59:47  <andythenorth> but afaict make doesn’t have them in scope
14:59:47  <Alberth> (or rather square two, the basic idea stays the same usually, so you can do a lot of peeking at the previous solution, and making selective copies of useful parts)
15:00:17  <Alberth> what are those, environment variables?
15:00:18  <keoz> Alberth: I thought it was more straightforward :p
15:00:45  <Alberth> keoz: it depends a lot on what you're doing
15:01:05  <andythenorth> maybe Makefile.local isn’t used
15:01:06  <keoz> No, I was asking because, having started to build some ottd patches, I sometime wonder what's the best way to deal with it
15:01:12  <Alberth> I usually get a 1 line fix right, the first time :)
15:01:25  <andythenorth> yes, PYTHONPATH is an env var, PYTHON2 is just which python to use
15:01:44  * andythenorth is lost without pm
15:01:44  <Alberth> did you export those env vars?
15:01:56  <andythenorth> I don’t want them exported, just used in the command
15:02:09  <andythenorth> export does a not-useful thing :)
15:02:13  <Alberth> ah right
15:02:32  <andythenorth> yeah, Makefile.local is unused
15:02:40  <andythenorth> that’s interesting
15:02:45  <andythenorth> might as well not be there
15:03:24  <andythenorth> also perplexing
15:03:36  <Alberth>
15:03:51  <Alberth> hmm, yeah, using it may be useful too :p
15:04:22  <andythenorth> is Makefile.local magical?
15:04:34  <andythenorth> it’s the only place I can see the grf install location defined
15:04:35  <Alberth> not to make, afaik
15:05:46  <Alberth> I also always get lost in the default Makefile stuff of the newgrf projects
15:06:14  <andythenorth> the grf installs to the correct place, which implies Makefile.local is used
15:06:21  <andythenorth> but variables defined in Makefile.local are not used
15:06:32  <andythenorth> (new variables)
15:08:13  <andythenorth>
15:08:16  <andythenorth> is how I feel about make
15:08:55  <Alberth> keoz: I tend to just try implement something, before I really know what to change exactly, so inevitably I make mistakes that should be reverted before committing. I find figuring out the feature, and getting changes in a sane order at the same time too compicated, hence I do the former first, and the latter second as a separate step
15:09:37  <Alberth> andythenorth: doing fish?
15:09:43  <andythenorth> yes
15:10:55  <Alberth> :o 100 change sets to update :)
15:12:32  * andythenorth been busy
15:12:53  <Alberth>    is what I have as Makefile*
15:13:12  <andythenorth> interesting
15:13:20  <andythenorth> I have Makefile.local, hgignored
15:13:23  <Alberth> where the fish-source-??  is something weird, by the looks of it
15:13:42  <andythenorth> yeah, dunno what that is
15:14:10  <Alberth> Makefile.local is in .hgignore indeed
15:14:46  <andythenorth> maybe I just need to include it
15:15:00  <andythenorth> I dunno
15:15:09  <andythenorth> I always worry about doing makefile changes wrong
15:15:13  <andythenorth> but if it works...
15:16:28  <andythenorth> works
15:16:45  <Alberth> "working" and "right" are two different things, where the latter implies the former, but not the other way around :p
15:17:23  <Alberth> yay
15:17:34  <Alberth> sometimes magic is useful :)
15:18:01  <andythenorth> this isn’t magic, just includes :)
15:18:15  <andythenorth> bundles server will now hate me even more
15:18:52  <Alberth> it loves you in 1:11, it seems
15:19:27  <andythenorth> so it does
15:21:01  <andythenorth> FISH is now prepared for NML 0.4.0 :P
15:24:29  * Alberth hands out the "ready for NML 0.4.0" sticker for the FISH project
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15:45:14  <Nemoder> anyone else find it difficult to move the view around when zoomed out all the way?  zoomed out once or twice and it's normal but all the way seems to apply some kind of acceleration that throws it all over the place
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15:48:28  <frosch123> it's not acceleration
15:48:30  <frosch123> it's lag
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15:49:09  <Nemoder> ah so it skips frames but keeps tracking input
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15:51:03  <Nemoder> it'd weird then that i can use the map window for navigation when zoomed out and it's smooth
15:51:16  <Nemoder> but if i hold right click on the main window it jumps around
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15:58:19  <Alberth> map window doesn't draw a zillion sprites
16:01:25  <frosch123> i think it's like 24fps in movies vs. 60fps in games
16:01:36  <frosch123> you do not notice the lag, if you are not in control
16:07:03  <Nemoder> no i mean, left clicking in the map window and dragging it around to move the main view is smooth when right clicking main view is not
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16:10:28  <Alberth> yeah, we are too
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16:13:58  <andythenorth> let’s give some ships smoke
16:14:51  <Alberth> +1
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16:19:22  <McxCZE> Hi guys need another help.
16:19:43  <McxCZE> I have a frodus script which after power failure automatically starts TTD and loads the save, works briliantly
16:20:04  <McxCZE> Anyway its picked clean, eg. I have the same map and everything but there is no corporation...
16:20:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: have you tried the electric spawning model?
16:20:11  <andythenorth> no but I can
16:20:32  <frosch123> i wonder whether spawning a single effect every now and then looks interesting with smoke
16:20:59  <andythenorth> hmm
16:21:02  <andythenorth> seems I lost my changes
16:21:10  <andythenorth> must have done hg wrong
16:22:11  <keoz> before doing doubtful things, you should fastly do a little hg diff > temp.patch
16:22:11  <McxCZE> Any tip guys ?
16:22:35  <andythenorth> I tried hg shelve
16:25:11  <keoz> didn't know that one
16:25:42  <keoz> oh yes, i get it :p
16:27:41  <andythenorth> saving a diff shouldn’t be a thing in a proper vcs
16:27:45  <andythenorth> it’s a redneck solution :D
16:28:15  <Nemoder> McxCZE: if you load the map manually is it still blank or is it not getting saved at all?
16:28:27  <Alberth> andythenorth:  patch queues and rebasing can all lose changes
16:28:37  <Alberth> hg evolve should not afaik
16:28:51  <Alberth> but I never seriously tried that
16:29:26  <McxCZE> Yes
16:29:33  <McxCZE> I load the map and it is blank.
16:29:47  <McxCZE> Like the map is the same way it used to be, but actually without corporation.
16:29:58  <Nemoder> if you build stuff, save it manually and load it manually is it blank?
16:29:58  <McxCZE> cities and everything is there. but corporations are all gone.
16:30:17  <McxCZE> Saved it manually, and load it starting frodus
16:30:26  <McxCZE> frodus saves the map everytime you exit the TTD.
16:30:34  <McxCZE> And load the map everytime you starrt.
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16:31:21  <Alberth> maybe frodus is doing something weird?
16:31:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: afaict, with EFFECT_SPAWN_MODEL_ELECTRIC set, sparks are shown
16:31:32  <andythenorth> even though create_effect uses EFFECT_SPRITE_STEAM
16:31:44  <andythenorth> might be my mistake, but I double checked
16:31:59  <McxCZE> yeah, Anyway I will try to solve it tomorrow. Have to do some work today. Thanks for tha help.
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16:32:37  <andythenorth> nah, must be my mistake
16:32:50  <andythenorth> fricking .orig files
16:32:56  <andythenorth> my editor switches to them by default
16:34:25  <keoz_> what's your editor ?
16:34:39  <andythenorth> TextWrangler
16:35:52  <keoz_> never heard
16:36:17  <andythenorth> frosch123: the delay is too much with electric spawning model imo
16:36:27  <andythenorth> it’s quite calming though :)
16:37:53  *** keoz [~keikoz@2001:41d0:51:1::e2] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:38:34  <frosch123> ok
16:39:03  *** keoz_ is now known as keoz
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17:45:51  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26757 /trunk/src/lang (afrikaans.txt catalan.txt) (2014-08-23 17:45:42 UTC)
17:45:52  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:53  <DorpsGek> afrikaans - 1 changes by telanus
17:45:54  <DorpsGek> catalan - 1 changes by juanjo
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19:25:32  <andythenorth> frosch123: is there any NO_EFFECT or similar?
19:25:47  <andythenorth> seems I can’t provide an empty list in the switch
19:25:57  <andythenorth> I could do more admin in my compile, just looking for a shortcut
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19:28:53  <frosch123> there is both a no-spawn-model and a no-effect-sprite
19:29:02  <frosch123> and you can also return 0 effects
19:29:09  <frosch123> so, there are 3 ways to do nothing :p
19:29:33  <frosch123> hmm, i forgot the 2nd method in nml though
19:31:15  <frosch123> pushed
19:31:16  <andythenorth> I couldn’t see it in the patch :)
19:31:22  <andythenorth> I did check first :)
19:31:40  <frosch123> EFFECT_SPAWN_MODEL_NONE is the uncool method
19:31:53  <frosch123> EFFECT_SPRITE_NONE is the brute-force method
19:32:03  <frosch123> returning 0 in the callback is my favorit
19:33:30  * andythenorth tries returning 0
19:38:19  <frosch123> you can also use the random bits for a certain black/white smoke ratio :p
19:39:01  <frosch123> or use the motion counter for a pattern
19:39:21  <frosch123> white - nothing - black - white - nothing - black - ...
19:39:54  <frosch123> back-to-future colours are not yet possible though
19:40:02  <andythenorth> :)
19:40:12  <frosch123> i am worried V will add nyan-rainbows to the cat trains
19:40:15  <andythenorth> I haven’t started on putting smoke out of sync yet :)
19:40:23  <andythenorth> I have to unbreak nml again :(
19:40:53  <MTsPony> hey frosch, hows the crash bug going
19:41:13  <frosch123> there are many :p
19:41:48  <MTsPony>  the full animation switch one :p
19:42:10  * andythenorth has no idea why pulling nml and running make install has broken it
19:42:16  <frosch123> ah, that one, i only added the dmp info. then i did script text parameter stuff, and nml and docs and such
19:42:45  <andythenorth>
19:42:51  <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe you had my earlier diff applied, which caused conflicts with the pulled thing
19:42:54  <andythenorth> this is when nmlc is called by make ^
19:42:59  <andythenorth> I reverted before pulling
19:43:07  <andythenorth> I can ‘nmlc fish.nml’ without problems
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19:45:04  <frosch123> that does again not look like my nml
19:45:28  <frosch123> are you on some weird branch?
19:45:30  <andythenorth> what differs?
19:45:44  <frosch123> it's an old python2 nml version
19:45:51  <frosch123> not the current nml at all
19:46:21  <andythenorth> what should I look for to know that?
19:46:24  <frosch123> it errors on line 176 in
19:46:35  <frosch123> today that line is at line 195
19:46:41  <MTsPony> ah ok thx frosch
19:46:50  <frosch123> and has different syntax
19:47:02  <andythenorth> how does everyone else build nml?
19:47:03  <andythenorth> make?
19:47:06  <andythenorth> make install?
19:47:16  <frosch123> make runs the regression
19:47:19  <frosch123> no need for that
19:47:28  <frosch123> nml does not need compiling
19:47:37  <frosch123> i do not install it either
19:47:40  <andythenorth> so how does it get added to site-packages?
19:47:52  <frosch123> just a symlink from /usr/local/bin to the checkout in my home folder
19:49:28  <frosch123> installing is for package managers, i never do that with custom packages
19:49:33  <andythenorth> ok I need to stop using make install, it breaks stuff
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20:02:09  <andythenorth> motion_counter might be my friend
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20:40:13  <andythenorth> done a ship with smoke in the right place
20:40:17  <andythenorth> looks good
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21:11:52  <Alberth> gn
21:12:52  <andythenorth> moi aussi
21:12:54  <andythenorth> bye
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21:36:53  <Eddi|zuHause> so, i can now make a steam engine emit black smoke while accelerating and white smoke while cruising?
21:39:25  <frosch123> yes
21:40:20  <frosch123> though i haven't yet seen how the aircraft smoke actually looks like on a train
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22:09:06  <frosch123> night
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22:26:16  <__ln__>
22:35:14  <berndj-blackout> so i've got myself a little moneymaker network, taking advantage of a bunch of synergistic industries close together, but if i want to hulk out and take over the whole map, is it better to keep stations single-purpose?
22:38:42  <Sylf> people take different approach to that problem
22:38:53  <Sylf> some make a huge station that service many cargoes
22:39:34  <Sylf> some do that, but use waypoints to dedicate some lines to some type of cargo, or different set of trains
22:40:25  <Sylf> I myself keep all stations separate, single purposed.  I find that easier to control the whole thing when I have 1000 trains
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23:02:30  <Wolf01> 'night
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