Log for #openttd on 19th September 2014:
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04:58:49  <jA_cOp> Eddi|zuHause, doesn't it say the transfer credits instead of losses though?
04:59:13  <jA_cOp> I guess if you look at the money counter instead of the popup
04:59:26  <Eddi|zuHause> jA_cOp: if it overestimates the transfer income, then the last vehicle will report a loss
04:59:49  <jA_cOp> ah
05:00:12  <Eddi|zuHause> which regularly happens if the last vehicle is slow, or moving in the wrong direction
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07:51:59  <andythenorth> ho ho
07:52:04  <andythenorth> horse carts and FIRS
07:58:39  <planetmaker> moin moin
08:05:57  <ArdaXi> hi guys. not sure if this is the right channel, but I tried compiling openttd on solaris yesterday and it failed because strgen_base.cpp uses alloca without including alloca.h
08:06:14  <ArdaXi> I included #include <alloca.h> and it compiled perfectly, so it seems like a bit of a bug to me
08:09:49  <planetmaker> ArdaXi, could you make a patch and open an issue in our bug tracker for that?
08:11:10  <planetmaker> but to answer your question: yes, you've come to the right place
08:11:29  <Pikka> "I play with slow vehicles and large maps, and it takes so long to transport cargo, how to fix?"
08:11:46  <planetmaker> Nice quote, Pikka :)
08:12:08  <Pikka> moin boin planetmaker and andythenorth
08:12:25  <andythenorth> such quotes
08:12:38  <andythenorth> I couldn’t think how to answer that one
08:13:00  <ArdaXi> planetmaker: can do, yeah, I'm just not entirely sure whether it's a good idea to put that in for all OSes
08:13:14  <ArdaXi> seeing as it apparently compiles fine without including the header on more common platforms
08:14:11  <ArdaXi> although that might be because stdlib.h includes alloca.h in glibc
08:14:43  <planetmaker> ArdaXi, well, can be guarded by os-specific #ifdef
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08:17:04  <planetmaker> ArdaXi, I wonder whether it should be in stdafx.h
08:17:12  <__ln__> ArdaXi: the linux man page also says alloca is in <alloca.h>
08:17:28  <planetmaker> probably... strgen/strgen_base.cpp includes it
08:17:28  <ArdaXi> __ln__: yes, but it also says that alloca.h is included by stdlib.h
08:18:00  <__ln__> :(
08:18:14  <__ln__> does it matter though, is another thing
08:18:27  <andythenorth> Pikka: how is BNE?
08:18:55  <Pikka> rollin' along. a bit smokey on wednesday.
08:20:06  <planetmaker> ArdaXi, it's strange. See src/stdafx.h:108
08:20:22  <planetmaker> it's included there. Do you have some (different) version of solaris which is not covered by that?
08:20:54  <planetmaker> if you try to fix it, please try to fix it in that place, if possible
08:21:49  <ArdaXi> planetmaker: oh yes, it is, very interesting
08:21:59  <ArdaXi> it recognised my OS as SUNOS so I doubt it's that
08:22:04  <peter1138> heh, weird things with /home on nfs... sudo mv can't remove the file...
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08:32:31  <ArdaXi> planetmaker: seems like SUNOS is not defined on my platform, that would explain that
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08:36:24  <ArdaXi> seems like it should be either __sun instead
08:36:33  <ArdaXi> well, that or sun or __sun__
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08:38:59  <ArdaXi> yup, replacing the instances of SUNOS by __sun works
08:41:59  <planetmaker> #if defined(SUNOS) || defined(HPUX) || defined(__SUN__)
08:42:03  <planetmaker> ^ that would work?
08:42:22  <planetmaker> what Solaris specifically do you use?
08:42:41  <planetmaker> __SUN or __SUN__ ?
08:43:19  <ArdaXi> according to solaris documentation, the standard is __sun
08:43:41  <planetmaker> link?
08:45:27  <ArdaXi> well, I got it from here, trying to find it on the solaris site now
08:45:27  <ArdaXi>
08:46:51  <ArdaXi> under -Dname[=def]
08:48:49  <ArdaXi> I'm not sure there's an OS that predefines SUNOS, unless you define it through autoconf I s'pose
08:49:43  <planetmaker> autoconf and OpenTTD hardly go together :)
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08:52:05  <ArdaXi> I did notice a ./configure thing that recognised my being on SUNOS tho
08:54:19  <planetmaker> 		os=`echo "$host" | tr '[A-Z]' '[a-z]' | $awk '
08:54:37  <planetmaker> 					/sunos/        { print "SUNOS";   exit}
08:54:37  <planetmaker> 					/solaris/      { print "SUNOS";   exit}
08:57:56  <ArdaXi> yes, but what does it do with the $os value?
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09:01:46  <planetmaker> what does your configure output look like and your config.cache?
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09:03:37  <ArdaXi> planetmaker:
09:04:12  <ArdaXi> so CFLAGS includes -DSUNOS
09:04:47  <planetmaker> yeah. So it *should* know that...
09:05:52  <peter1138> check the command line when it's compiling strgen
09:06:13  <ArdaXi> g++ -Wall -Wno-multichar -Wsign-compare -Wundef -Wwrite-strings -Wpointer-arith -W -Wno-unused-parameter -Wredundant-decls -Wformat=2 -Wformat-security -Wno-unused-variable -Wno-unused-but-set-variable -Wno-unused-but-set-parameter -Winit-self -fno-strict-aliasing -Wcast-qual -fno-strict-overflow -Wnon-virtual-dtor -Wno-free-nonheap-object -rdynamic -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -O1 -DNDEBUG -I /root/openttd-1.4.2/objs/lang -std=gnu++0x -Wno-narrowing -DSTRGEN -c -o s
09:06:20  <planetmaker> the question is... does strgen compilation get same CFLAGS?
09:06:36  <planetmaker> seems it doesn't
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09:18:03  <planetmaker> <-- does that work, ArdaXi ?
09:19:14  <ArdaXi> planetmaker: yup, that works fine
09:19:19  <planetmaker> cool
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09:28:29  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26850 trunk/config.lib (2014-09-19 09:28:23 UTC)
09:28:30  <DorpsGek> -Fix: [Makefile] Compilation of strgen requires also defining  variable in  for platforms like Solaris
09:35:00  <ArdaXi> \o/
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10:02:16  <andythenorth> such 1800s
10:02:30  <andythenorth> Pikka: when is pineapple trucks starting from?
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10:40:48  <peter1138> so is daylength patch in 1.4? :p
10:41:07  <peter1138> er
10:41:17  <peter1138> "Passengers production at Aberninghead Cross Oil Rig decreases 50%!"
10:46:15  * Pikka returns
10:47:44  <Pikka> andythenorth, (steem)trams from 1889, trucks from 1910, buses from 1919
10:54:12  <Eddi|zuHause> there were already electric trams in 1889
10:54:36  <Pikka> steam trams are fun, and can be used for hauling freight as well
10:54:45  <Pikka> my first electric tram is 1905
11:01:12  <andythenorth> shameful
11:01:19  <andythenorth> what about the poor 1800s players?
11:01:47  <andythenorth> and what about realisms?
11:02:13  <andythenorth> it’s well known that we had a major industrial economy based on horses hailing bulk cargo hundreds of kilometres
11:02:18  <andythenorth> realism is very important
11:04:40  <Pikka> what if I push the steam tram back to 1875 and fill it with horses
11:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i've said for years that there should be a generic horse vehicle set, that covers the 1800s only
11:11:40  <Eddi|zuHause> which can then be combined with any modern vehicle set
11:13:42  <peter1138> Someone™ should make it!
11:14:15  <peter1138> When you go to 4x zoom, the horses show themselves to be Lego horses...
11:15:26  <Pikka> horse vehicles were in commercial use well into the 20th century
11:15:31  <Pikka> realism, doesn't it?
11:16:06  <peter1138> Don't forget, it was decreed that OpenTTD would never contain horses.
11:16:32  <peter1138> I'm concerned about this production of passengers. Should I send more females?
11:19:05  <andythenorth> $someone
11:19:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: would the horse set cover road + rail?
11:19:43  <peter1138> horse-drawn canal boats?
11:19:45  <andythenorth> Iron Horse will (shock) gain some horses, as will Road Hog
11:19:51  <andythenorth> not because I care, but because Dan does
11:20:02  <andythenorth> it will also get magleveppelins
11:20:22  <andythenorth> an alternative would be to make a horsey set....
11:20:44  <andythenorth> hmm
11:20:53  <andythenorth> or settings in IH and RH for ‘horsies-only'
11:21:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, make a real horse set in addition to the iron horse set
11:21:18  <andythenorth> could be done
11:21:47  <Pikka> add horses to FIRS, too
11:22:01  <Pikka> for the production of romanian lasagna
11:22:32  <Eddi|zuHause> as for FIRS: i already asked for this before, an "early economy" with way more but much smaller industries
11:22:53  <Eddi|zuHause> which slowly fade out when larger industries are built
11:23:46  * Pikka should industries :/
11:23:54  <Pikka> right after ships and road vehicles and towns and
11:24:30  <Eddi|zuHause> the early mines and farms would not have the ability to boost production with supplies
11:24:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and have a much smaller base production
11:24:52  <Pikka> sounds boring and "realistic"
11:25:14  <Pikka> I think an option to have maximum / base production change over time would be good, though.
11:25:33  <Eddi|zuHause> and the blacksmith or wind mill industries will have a maximum capacity, so additional cargo will not produce any secondary cargo (food, metal)
11:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> there will also not be any industry that produces supplies, because what's the point...
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11:38:59  <andythenorth> industry replacement is not a thing
11:39:07  <andythenorth> there is no sensible mechanism for closure
11:39:18  <andythenorth> or at least not that I found, and I got bored
11:39:34  <andythenorth> early economy would be possible, could tweak the clustering
11:39:52  <andythenorth> but more likely, someone forks FIRS
11:42:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it would be useful if you could issue news message like "Steel crisis: emerging of large steel mills bring local blacksmiths in financial troubles, expect some closures over the next years"
11:43:49  <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: hehe. couldn't a game script do that?
11:43:59  <andythenorth> no
11:44:03  <andythenorth> for [reasons]
11:44:03  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: no, because you cannot tie a game script to a newgrf
11:44:10  <andythenorth> GS is not allowed to know anything about GS
11:44:13  <andythenorth> oops
11:44:15  <andythenorth> newgrf :D
11:44:21  <b_jonas> hmm
11:44:22  <b_jonas> :(
11:44:33  <andythenorth> but what Eddi describes is scenario-driven gameplay, like Railroad Tycoon
11:44:36  <andythenorth> which requires GS
11:44:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not sure it does...
11:44:50  <andythenorth> so it was an interesting choice that GS must be agnostic
11:44:53  <b_jonas> Could you just tie both the opening steel mills and the closing of blacksmiths to dates?
11:44:53  <andythenorth> but that boat has flown
11:44:56  <andythenorth> or hovered
11:45:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just make it every time a steel mill emerges, each blacksmith has an x% chance of closing in the next 5 years
11:45:52  <andythenorth> that assumes steel mills emerge, amongst other things
11:45:58  <andythenorth> industry generation is so unreliable already
11:46:02  <andythenorth> we did try this
11:46:07  <andythenorth> there were multiple approaches
11:46:22  <andythenorth> T*rkhen had ottd running headless logging all the openings and closures
11:46:31  <andythenorth> in the end fr*sch told me to stop wasting my life
11:47:00  <andythenorth> it’s a fundamentally wrong approach to try and do it in newgrf, where each industry has no knowledge of game state
11:47:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, it should be done in game internals, which then exposes the right interfaces to newgrfs
11:47:52  <Eddi|zuHause> like a "try to force at least one instance of this new industry" mode
11:47:52  * andythenorth has no counter argument of any kind to that
11:48:14  <andythenorth> certainly doing things like trying to count the number of industries of type x, factored by map size, then decide closures
11:48:15  <andythenorth> is mad
11:48:24  <andythenorth> within industry closure cb
11:49:34  <Eddi|zuHause> there should probably be a 60+ variable for that
11:49:52  <Eddi|zuHause> "number of industries of type <param>"
11:53:15  <Pikka> there should be? there is...
11:53:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never even looked at industry specs
11:54:16  <Pikka> I had that going once with my TaI next generation specs, relative numbers of supply and demand industries affecting production and closure.
11:54:22  <Pikka> terrible features
11:54:22  <andythenorth> there are plenty of vars
11:54:26  <andythenorth> and there are useful cbs
11:55:19  <andythenorth> but there is a fundamental problem with delegating choices to individual industries whilst trying to enforce a specific game narrative
11:55:36  <andythenorth> autonomous agents -> emergent complexity
11:55:48  <Pikka> goot dimes
11:56:12  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, my point stands. if both GS and NewGRF are the wrong place, then game internals it must be
11:56:53  <Pikka> Eddi: unless nowhere is the right place because it's just a bad idea, that's also a possibility. :)
11:57:05  <Eddi|zuHause> which then creates the problem about how generic it must be, to not only to cater to the needs of FIRS
11:57:15  <andythenorth> Pikka: I concluded it’s a bad idea
11:57:24  <andythenorth> ottd is about building routes
11:57:26  <andythenorth> and then fixing them
11:57:40  <andythenorth> the narrative scenario-driven gameplay doesn’t fit
11:57:55  <andythenorth> maybe Train Fewer will do it? o_O
11:58:23  <Eddi|zuHause> as far as i understand it, train fever has not a lot of industry going on at all
11:58:40  <Eddi|zuHause> like 3 raw materials that are all turned into "goods"
11:59:05  <Pikka> that certainly doesn't happen in TTD
11:59:08  <andythenorth> well maybe you can get a €3 copy of Railroad Tycoon 3?
11:59:25  <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon 3 had multiple, historically accurate scenarios
11:59:32  <andythenorth> cargo distribution was fricking awesome in it
11:59:39  <andythenorth> but it was mostly an industry sim
11:59:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried RRT2 for about 10 minutes, and didn't get the point of things...
12:00:06  <andythenorth> the routing challenge in RT3 was non-existent, magic signalling, magic passing loops
12:00:15  <andythenorth> it was a top-level thing, where a route had capacity
12:00:21  <Eddi|zuHause> they removed the one useful feature from RRT: dispatcher operation
12:00:38  <andythenorth> was that the manul or auto mode?
12:00:42  <andythenorth> manual *
12:00:55  <Eddi|zuHause> the one where signals actually did something
12:01:14  <andythenorth> originally it was built as a model railroad sim by Sid Meier
12:01:17  <andythenorth> with everything manual
12:01:19  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of trains meeting on a single track line just stopping
12:01:29  <andythenorth> oh yeah, dispatcher mode was winner
12:01:34  <andythenorth> RT3 ignored all of that
12:01:49  <andythenorth> 50% of RT3 was about playing the stock market
12:01:59  <andythenorth> lots of short-selling, pump-and-dump etc
12:02:03  <andythenorth> really fun
12:02:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't like the stock market part at all
12:02:17  <andythenorth> useful insights into economic crashes ;)
12:02:33  <andythenorth> short-selling ftw
12:02:50  <andythenorth> teaches you that as long as your moral goals are suficiently narrow, pump-and-dump is the ethical choice
12:02:55  <Eddi|zuHause> the only part of stock market i got from RRT was "get 50% of your company so they won't buy you out"
12:02:57  * andythenorth digresses
12:03:45  <Eddi|zuHause> which was sort of a pointless game mechanics
12:30:08  <jA_cOp> Has anyone got a recommendation for an AI that provides some flavour to an otherwise singleplayer game, without being massively competitive? I've yet to play the game with multiple companies so I'd like to get a feel for how companies interact
12:30:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i generally play without competitors
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14:33:40  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm... weird? <-- they sell Sim City (5) for 13€ and addon for 14€, but bundle both together costs 28€?
14:34:35  <planetmaker> buy two, pay three. Makes sense to me
14:35:55  <Eddi|zuHause> did anyone even play this?
14:36:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i heard cities are way too small compared to SC4
14:36:58  <planetmaker> I tested it some time ago. Quite ok from the brief time I spend on it
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15:54:52  <Pikka> these hoggish buses are taking 36 ticks to do a full unload + load :D
15:55:41  <peter1138> is that good or bad?
15:55:51  <andythenorth> big ships must be given an advantage
15:55:56  <andythenorth> unrelated :P
15:56:06  <Pikka> well, it makes them rather less effective at short distance passenger shifting than their high capacity would suggest ;)
15:56:35  <andythenorth> Pikka: loading speed 5
15:56:36  <andythenorth> default
15:56:37  <andythenorth> innit
15:56:47  <andythenorth> I should fix them?
15:56:56  <peter1138> well, that's about a second, right?
15:57:10  <Pikka> 36 loading ticks, not game ticks
15:57:14  <peter1138> oh
15:57:21  <Pikka> 90 passengers out, 90 passengers in, 5 passengers at a time
15:57:45  <andythenorth> small staircase
15:57:49  <andythenorth> sounds realistic
15:57:54  <Pikka> I'd be inclined to increase it, andy. but it's your set. ;)
15:58:30  <andythenorth> 20?
15:59:26  <andythenorth>
15:59:53  <Pikka> splendid
16:02:37  <Pikka> hmm
16:03:01  <Pikka> well, an IH metro loads 80 per tick... that's not default ;)
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16:22:12  <andythenorth> big doors
16:22:21  <andythenorth> metro is dibbled to give it a big advantage
16:23:00  <Pikka> yes
16:23:21  <Pikka> but then you have RH trams, which are surely similar, which are loading at 10 per tick ;)
16:25:16  <andythenorth> I think we can file that as wrong
16:25:26  <andythenorth> I haven’t play tested RH much
16:25:34  <andythenorth> if you want to annotate the ticket

16:25:38  <andythenorth> it would be welcome
16:26:14  <Pikka> yebbut that means signing in and stuff :/
16:27:50  <andythenorth> put them here
16:27:58  <andythenorth> I will laboriously copy and paste
16:28:06  <andythenorth> or make a giant cost and stats table in the forums?
16:28:13  <andythenorth> with formulas and stuff?
16:34:00  <Alberth> having inconsistent costs is much more fun! :)
16:34:22  <andythenorth> random
16:34:25  <andythenorth> per game
16:34:31  <andythenorth> so you have to change tactics
16:34:48  <Alberth> +1
16:35:12  <Alberth> not that I will notice it much, I look at stats every game anyway :)
16:36:28  <Alberth> stuff like "bigger ships make bigger profits" doesn't mean much in a game like openttd, where money is irrelevant :)
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16:37:08  <Alberth> on the other hand, you may want to fix it to keep the reality persons off your back
16:37:11  <andythenorth> usually the requirement is to dibble down smaller vehicles so they are viable
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16:38:47  <Alberth> with the 1800s post I wondered whether it would be feasible to generate industries closer to each other, but with your "don't close industries" it would fail for the 1900s and 2ks then
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16:39:16  <andythenorth> and closing industries is a fricking nightmare
16:39:48  <Alberth> I don't have that experience, but fair enough
16:40:06  <andythenorth> providing rules for mass closure
16:40:17  <andythenorth> I am now closing your sawmill because it’s too close to a wood
16:40:20  <andythenorth> and it’s 1900
16:40:28  <andythenorth> and faster trains are available
16:40:35  <andythenorth> so it must be closed
16:40:39  <andythenorth> and you must build a new one
16:41:32  <Alberth> at some point the horses get changed for trucks and trains, that would be a good moment
16:42:26  <Alberth> open a new one just 10 tiles further, wait for the player to extend, repeat :p
16:46:04  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone got chicken farms in banished to work? they always die out on me...
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16:47:28  <andythenorth> maybe allow industries to read the vehicles?
16:47:29  <andythenorth> :P
16:47:43  <andythenorth> quak also
16:49:04  <Alberth> o/
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16:49:31  <frosch123> hola
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16:54:23  <Pikka>
16:54:26  <Pikka> brm brm
16:55:14  <frosch123> will it load containers?
16:55:24  <Eddi|zuHause> missing a few directions?
16:55:28  <frosch123> or livestock?
16:55:39  <Pikka> it's just showing off, eddi :P
16:55:49  <Pikka> ooh, cows on a hovercraft...
16:56:04  <andythenorth> awesome zellepin
16:56:14  <andythenorth> I do like renderised
16:57:36  <peter1138> anyone made a set that takes advantage of 4x zoom to have accurate-length carriages? :p
16:57:46  <andythenorth> CETS?
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17:12:50  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS doesn't do 4x zoom
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17:15:34  <DanMacK> Hey all
17:16:01  <andythenorth> lo
17:18:11  <Pikka> hello Dan
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17:28:35  <Pikka> <frosch123> will it load containers? ->
17:39:18  <frosch123> just be careful to not end up between them
17:39:58  <b_jonas> Pikka: nice
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17:40:30  <b_jonas> can we have rafts in the river pulled by horses on the coast yet?
17:40:46  <Pikka> mo horses, mo problems.
17:41:16  * Pikka still thinks that kind of industrial canal would be best coded as a roadtype, if we ever get roadtypes. :)
17:41:55  <b_jonas> hmm... roadtype might work, and then crossings would get small bridges where the horses can cross
17:42:02  <b_jonas> dunno
17:42:16  <b_jonas> it probably can't be done as just a road type
17:42:21  <b_jonas> single square is just too narrow for it
17:43:54  <Pikka> horse-drawn narrowboats are very narrow, that's why they're called narrowboats
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17:47:10  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26851 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-09-19 17:47:00 UTC)
17:47:11  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:47:11  <Eddi|zuHause>  <b_jonas> can we have rafts in the river pulled by horses on the coast yet? <-- only when you can live with them walking through water occasionally
17:47:12  <DorpsGek> belarusian - 33 changes by KorneySan
17:47:13  <DorpsGek> brazilian_portuguese - 100 changes by Tucalipe
17:47:14  <DorpsGek> russian - 2 changes by KorneySan
17:47:15  <DorpsGek> welsh - 4 changes by kazzie
17:48:21  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Some canals had sections with no towpath where the horse walked down the middle of the canal
17:48:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant more like ocean :)
17:53:57  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26852 trunk/src/lang/belarusian.txt (2014-09-19 17:53:50 UTC)
17:53:58  <DorpsGek> -Fix: WT3 validation error
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17:55:56  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Set max speed to 0 when on ocean?
17:56:22  <FLHerne> Then they'll just beave strangely and confuse the player, rather than being unprototypical
17:56:24  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: that sounds like a catastrophe waiting to happen
17:56:27  <FLHerne> ^behave
17:56:35  <Alberth> 1, it can swim :p
17:56:56  <Eddi|zuHause> like, all your ships get stuck on the ocean and you can't get them back
17:57:06  <FLHerne> Does yapf even take differential speeds into account? I didn't see anything that tested that
17:57:20  *** Brumi_ [] has quit []
17:57:41  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Building canal ships on the ocean is Undefined Behaviour, and the player shouldn't do it :P
17:58:01  <FLHerne> Clearly newgrfs should come with detailed reference docs and specs
17:58:25  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: it's not even that. it's already that the pathfinder doesn't prevent this
17:58:52  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i'm pretty sure there's a minimum speed limit of 1
17:59:11  <FLHerne> Well, that should serve to discourage misusing things
18:14:42  *** moffi [] has joined #openttd
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18:24:54  <andythenorth> o/
18:27:38  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
18:27:58  <Wolf01> hrllo
18:28:05  <Wolf01> s/r/e
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18:29:56  <andythenorth> also
18:30:46  <andythenorth> shlex is my new favourite thing
18:30:59  <andythenorth> wish I had noticed that in the python docs before
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18:53:13  <Alberth> a bit of a tokenizer, wasn't it?
18:53:19  *** DanMacK [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
18:53:28  <Supercheese>  :O
18:54:01  <Pikka> might be
18:54:38  <andythenorth> Alberth: I always get fuddled by args for subprocess.POPEN :)
18:54:44  <andythenorth> shlex will solve that
18:54:45  <Wolf01> I could return with the new pc... nah, tomorrow
18:55:10  <Alberth> andythenorth: don't use a shell in popen :)
18:55:33  <Wolf01> nah, now
18:55:37  <Wolf01> bbl
18:55:41  <Alberth> bye Wolf01
18:55:46  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
18:56:07  <andythenorth> what will andythenorth do next
18:56:10  <andythenorth> ?
18:56:18  <Alberth> play a game?
18:56:42  <Supercheese> but the only winning move is not to play...
18:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Alberth: I always get fuddled by args for subprocess.POPEN :) <-- that screams like a code injection waiting to happen
18:57:20  <Alberth> Supercheese: but we're not in it to win :)
18:57:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes
18:57:34  <Supercheese> andy seems very winning-oriented :P
18:57:51  <Supercheese> what with the goalscripts
18:57:57  <andythenorth> I am cursed by the need to win
18:58:10  <andythenorth> it would be a much quieter life otherwise
18:58:29  <andythenorth> also sausages
18:58:42  <Supercheese> bratwurst?
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18:59:26  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I _think_ it’s ok as long as the first arg is correct, but yeah, vulnerability city
19:00:22  <andythenorth> conveniently most of the args come from a web form, so
nothing dangerous about that
19:00:23  <b_jonas> wait, how did I suddenly get so much money
19:00:33  <b_jonas> let me check the incomes
19:00:56  <Supercheese> subsidy...?
19:01:38  <b_jonas> no
19:02:02  <peter1138> um
19:02:07  <peter1138> how did i miss newstats 0.6?
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19:02:33  <b_jonas> wow, these passenger ferries earn more money than I expected
19:02:33  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
19:02:36  <andythenorth> newgrfs are BAD FEATUREs
19:02:45  <b_jonas> but of course I got the money from trains
19:02:54  <b_jonas> no wait
19:02:57  <b_jonas> it's from AIRPLANES!
19:02:59  <b_jonas> that explains it
19:03:01  <b_jonas> wow
19:03:04  <Supercheese> yes, it does
19:03:19  <Supercheese> Zeppelins OP, nerf plz
19:03:35  <b_jonas> gotta start more
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19:35:07  <LordAro>
19:35:18  <LordAro> half surprised you can't see the edge of the world
19:35:28  <LordAro> (in the title game)
19:37:43  <frosch123> the sprite font for the openttd title does not scale :p
19:38:42  <Rubidium> is scales perfectly
19:38:53  <SpComb> openttd might need some kind of scaleable UI for DPI compensation there as well :)
19:38:59  <Rubidium> pixels get smaller, letters get smaller
19:39:09  <LordAro> that's what bigGUI is for :)
19:39:29  <Rubidium> oh... yay... a fiddly DPI setting
19:39:42  <andythenorth> vector UI? o_O
19:39:45  <andythenorth> webfonts
19:39:55  <Rubidium> because not everyone likes everything scaled HUGE because he has high DPI
19:39:59  <SpComb> well, assuming the underlying OS provides some concept of DPI
19:40:00  <V453000> vector sprites
19:40:14  <Rubidium> he wants a lot on a relatively small physical screen...
19:40:36  <Rubidium> come on... why would I want my screen to only contain 25 lines and 80 columns?
19:41:03  <frosch123> yeah, i also wonder how that was usable in the past
19:41:57  <Rubidium> but maybe we should just return to the good old days where a screen was 640x480 and scale everything so it is exactly that big
19:41:59  <LordAro> someone(tm) should finish bigGUI and make it work properly
19:50:18  <peter1138> Is that image scaled down? Cos my text isn't that small...
19:50:36  <peter1138> Ah yeah it is
19:51:06  <peter1138> i had more patches for scalable ui stuff
19:52:12  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I tried playing at 640x480 for a bit
19:52:19  <andythenorth> easier on the eyes
19:52:31  <peter1138> i used to play at 800x600, when i used a crt
19:52:42  <peter1138> now, going full screen just crashes
19:52:56  <andythenorth> oh yeah
19:52:57  <andythenorth> me too
19:53:03  * andythenorth just tested
19:53:08  <Rubidium> peter1138: and you have a patch for that crash too, right?
19:53:20  <andythenorth> specifically changing resolution crashs full screen
19:53:34  <andythenorth> oh and not full screen too
19:53:37  <andythenorth> another OS X Bug :)
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19:57:03  <peter1138> Rubidium, no, *everything* crashes
19:57:30  <peter1138> well, actually only the program changing to fullscreen
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19:57:41  <peter1138> but any program does it, and not just sdl stuff
19:57:59  <peter1138> i blame nvidia
19:58:28  <Rubidium> what, you still don't have a patch for that binary blob?
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20:00:46  <Eddi|zuHause> a binary binary large object?
20:03:08  <Rubidium> 'binary large object' is from the database world
20:04:48  *** Pensacola [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:06:58  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26853 /trunk (29 files in 12 dirs) (2014-09-19 20:06:51 UTC)
20:06:59  <DorpsGek> -Cleanup [Squirrel]: remove some stuff that we never did and especially never should use
20:07:03  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i have "left 4 dead 2" in my steam account and never even started it...
20:07:05  <peter1138> hmm, seems to sort of work if i set the resolution in the config file to a valid resolution before hand
20:07:13  <peter1138> but then switching back to window breaks
20:07:49  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: so it's the resolution detection that crashes?
20:08:54  <peter1138> it detected the valid resolutions
20:09:11  <peter1138> if the resolution is invalid (i.e. it's a window resolution) what resolution does it use?
20:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i meant it used the resolution you provided it with flawlessly, but when the resolution fails and it needs to get the available ones from the OS, that breaks
20:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause> (this is all guessed)
20:12:24  <peter1138> i know what you meant, and i answered: it detected the valid resolutions
20:14:47  <Eddi|zuHause> then i don't know...
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20:15:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't use fullscreen, and especially not with resolution changes
20:15:16  <Eddi|zuHause> they tend to screw everything up
20:15:21  <peter1138> yeah some games automatically switch :(
20:15:44  <Eddi|zuHause> plus, it looks horrible
20:15:55  <peter1138> anyway, seems to indeed be a problem with XF86VidModeSwitchToMode and twinview
20:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause> with interpolated pixels and wrong aspect ratio and stuff
20:16:00  <andythenorth> bye
20:16:04  <peter1138> bai
20:16:06  <andythenorth> bai
20:16:07  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
20:16:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have twinview
20:19:20  *** Belugas [] has quit [Quit: On snow, everyone can follow your traces]
20:23:49  <b_jonas> whoa, I almost crashed two trains
20:29:06  <peter1138> hard to crash one
20:29:20  <peter1138> but not impossible
20:29:33  <Pikka> is it not?
20:31:53  <LordAro> UFO?
20:32:11  <Pikka> ufos don't crash trains, only road vehicles.
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20:33:18  <frosch123> LordAro: think more along wetrails :p
20:33:28  <LordAro> ah yes
20:33:44  <V453000> .
20:33:46  <LordAro> not so much "crashing" as "deleting" though, iirc?
20:34:03  <frosch123> it explodes and says "crashed"
20:34:27  <frosch123> ships are the only solid unbreakable things in ottd :)
20:34:38  *** moffi [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:36:28  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, this "Civilization: Beyond Earth" sounds very similar to alpha centauri
20:37:11  <b_jonas> I wonder if it would make sense to build a double-line here that transports both passengers and goods
20:37:12  <frosch123> hmm, was the latter every a thing?
20:37:21  <b_jonas> and separate it from the oil line
20:37:49  <frosch123> i remember myths about a civ sequel being called "alpha centauri", but i don't think i have ever seen it
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20:39:54  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: iirc, it's sort of supposed to be Alpha Centauri 2
20:39:59  <LordAro> but riding on the Civ brand
20:40:17  <frosch123> oh, there was a alpha centauri in 1999
20:40:45  <frosch123> i somewhat thought it would be somewhere between civ 1 and 2 :p
20:41:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it was more like between civ 2 and 3
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20:42:14  <Eddi|zuHause> and there was even an addon, which i never had
20:44:20  <Eddi|zuHause> and then somebody made a mod for civ4 called "planetfall", which used the flavour text audio from alpha centauri
20:46:12  <b_jonas> I think Alpha Centauri exists, at least I heared some people play with it
20:46:22  <b_jonas> and yes, a sequel to Civ
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20:50:36  <peter1138> yeah, xf86vidmodeswitchtomode just blows up
20:52:36  <peter1138> Pikka, if you flood them
20:52:43  <Pikka> yse
20:53:03  <peter1138> They blew up, because water causes explosions, yes.
20:53:23  <Pikka> the trains are made of sodium
20:53:25  <Pikka> obviously
20:54:16  <Eddi|zuHause> have you seen the beginning of this season of "hell on wheels"?
20:54:58  <Eddi|zuHause> (season 4, i think)
20:55:23  <peter1138> Ok, so we need a video driver that will render to an XVideo surface.
20:55:36  <peter1138> Which can then use the GPU to scale that surface to fullscreen :p
20:56:04  <Eddi|zuHause> does that require compositing?
20:57:03  <peter1138> no
21:00:14  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit []
21:03:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i should probably stop clicking through game shops, or i'll spend more on games than in my entire life :p
21:05:21  <peter1138> heh, talk like a pirate day bundle
21:05:40  <peter1138> got that, though i suppose that's the hires remake
21:07:13  <Eddi|zuHause> my "interested" list is now at 97€, which is probably a bit much
21:16:25  <peter1138> hmm, i wonder if that just works... probably not :)
21:18:25  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:19:25  <peter1138> oh, my version of monkey island is the windows one
21:19:53  *** Pikka [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:21:30  <glx> I have -50% for payday2 and -50% for hotline miami if someone wants
21:24:57  <peter1138> Holy shit it does wortk.
21:25:08  <peter1138> Mostly
21:26:17  <frosch123> night
21:26:21  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
21:28:06  <peter1138>
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22:03:47  <peter1138>  SEF_SETTING_KIND does not exist :S
22:13:15  <peter1138> how dare people change things that affect my patches ;p
22:16:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that patch is 10 years old? :p
22:19:23  <peter1138> r23016
22:25:27  <Eddi|zuHause> so... i now preordered this civ game, which is probably a mistake. and i bought train fever, which is probably also a mistake. and the last civ5 addon, which, if it was a mistake, is not an expensive one
22:25:41  <Eddi|zuHause> altogether for 65€
22:27:44  <peter1138> err
22:27:45  <peter1138> yeah
22:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> there we go, Civ5 doesn't even start anymore in wine...
22:33:34  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: try the native version :p
22:33:57  <peter1138> er, yeah,
22:47:29  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: i didn't try native steam for ages...
22:48:01  <LordAro> well, that's your loss :p
22:48:05  <LordAro> it works fine
22:48:07  <LordAro> always has
22:49:03  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, it works quite well
22:49:36  <planetmaker> and if you shelled-out 65€ for Civ5, that's indeed a mistake
22:50:06  <peter1138> hmm, is there a SetMinimalSize for just one dimension?
22:50:30  <Eddi|zuHause> no, 37€ for the beyond earth game (original price 50€), 8€ for the civ5 addon, and 20€ for train fever
22:52:00  <planetmaker> that's probably better :)
22:52:09  * LordAro got Civ5 Complete for £12 in the summer :3
22:52:28  <planetmaker> yeah, round about that
22:52:53  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i got Civ5 as birthday present on release
22:52:59  *** trendynick [~trendynic@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and bought the previous addon for like 15€
22:55:44  <peter1138> native civ5 works nicely
22:56:31  <planetmaker> yup, quite
22:57:15  <peter1138> Even on Wheezy, once you've found a version of the Steam package that works.
22:58:04  <Eddi|zuHause> mÀh, steam guard...
22:58:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably greylisted and by the time i get the mail the code is expired...
23:00:05  <peter1138> This SetMinimalSize() malarkey doesn't really play nice with a scalable ui :(
23:06:11  <Wolf01> 'night all
23:06:20  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
23:11:02  *** Stimrol [] has joined #openttd
23:15:37  <Eddi|zuHause> um... this mail took 15 minutes...
23:19:26  <peter1138> Quick for greylisting.
23:19:48  <Eddi|zuHause> usually 5 minutes
23:23:37  <peter1138> god damn it, changed one file and everything recompiles :p
23:28:54  <Eddi|zuHause> now i remember what was annoying about native steam... it doesn't minimize to tray...
23:33:49  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: oh yeah, just add "STEAM_FRAME_FORCE_CLOSE=1" to the start up (icon, etc)
23:33:59  <FUZxxl> Hey
23:34:19  <FUZxxl> Is there a way to let OpenTTD allow me to build stations with more than six platforms?
23:35:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, use drag&drop
23:35:18  <Eddi|zuHause> or place two stations next to each other
23:36:11  <FUZxxl> Eddi|zuHause: I always get a message "station too large"
23:36:28  <Eddi|zuHause> FUZxxl: then change the station spread in advanced settings
23:36:35  <FUZxxl> The maximum I can build is a station with 6 platforms à 7 tiles
23:36:45  <Eddi|zuHause> (although the standard setting is 12)
23:37:07  <FUZxxl> Eddi|zuHause: Should I make it smaller or larger?
23:37:27  <Eddi|zuHause> this is the maximum size a station can have, including attached bus stops, airports etc.
23:37:31  <FUZxxl> ok
23:42:50  <planetmaker> set it to 64
23:43:46  <FUZxxl> ok
23:44:03  <planetmaker> or whatever lower value you think is a good maximum size
23:49:41  <peter1138> i love to watch things on tv
23:49:50  <peter1138> bong bong bong
23:49:53  <peter1138> satellite of love
23:50:47  <FUZxxl> <- this is a good one
23:51:46  <peter1138> won't you be my wagonwheel?
23:58:58  <peter1138> bash: svn: command not found
23:59:00  <peter1138> :S

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