Log for #openttd on 26th September 2014:
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02:29:05  <efess> hey, any way to do a console command to see what gamescript is loaded?
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05:24:37  <argoneus> stronk mornink
05:24:48  <argoneus> >school at 7:30
05:24:50  <argoneus> ffff
05:28:44  <V453000> gg
05:37:13  <argoneus> I am wondering
05:37:25  <argoneus> I want to make a script, that takes a giant screenshot once in a while and uploads it to my website
05:37:36  <argoneus> I suppose I have to use a script with Expect or such?
05:37:48  <argoneus> or is it possible somehow even normally
05:37:57  <argoneus> like with a parameter or a rcon command
05:39:20  <V453000> idk but how about launching the game as network, and your second client simply stays in one position and takes screenshot every $time
05:39:32  <V453000> I think gettile moves your viewport
05:42:03  <argoneus> doesn't network game start the GUI too?
05:42:43  <V453000> well does but idk if you can make that automatic
05:43:45  <argoneus> hmm
05:45:22  <argoneus> I'll just use my irc bot with the admin port
05:45:38  <argoneus> and through that run screenshot
05:45:42  <argoneus> I guess
05:46:45  <andythenorth> o/
05:48:13  <argoneus> the question is
05:48:14  <argoneus> if I can somehow get the openttd folder
05:48:14  <argoneus> because on windows and linux they are different
05:48:14  <argoneus> oh wait I can just specify that in config, right
05:48:14  <argoneus> should be fine
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06:22:38  <argoneus> oh
06:22:42  <argoneus> you can't take screenshots without GUI
06:22:45  <argoneus> well, that makes sense I guess
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07:37:54  <argoneus> are there any commands to get current date / start date?
07:38:06  <argoneus> because there don't seem to be any on the wiki
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07:45:34  <Supercheese> setting game_creation.starting_year will print that
07:45:37  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
07:45:37  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 16 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <Pikka> probably
07:45:50  <Supercheese> "setting game_creation.starting_year"
07:45:52  <argoneus> ah, I see
07:46:01  <argoneus> thanks
07:47:28  <Supercheese> "getdate"  for current date
07:47:43  <andythenorth> hmm
07:47:47  <andythenorth> my forum sig
07:47:53  <andythenorth> does not have all sets
07:47:58  <andythenorth> but then it would be big
07:47:58  <Supercheese> I just hopped in a game, typed "list_cmds", found those :P
07:48:02  <andythenorth> big sig is BAD FEATURE
07:48:08  <andythenorth> maybe time for HEQS to die
07:48:18  <Supercheese> Nuuuuu mah trams
07:48:33  <Supercheese> HEQS trams are epic
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07:53:08  <argoneus> Supercheese: someone should update the wiki :<
07:53:10  <argoneus> the commands taht is
07:53:24  <argoneus> (I do realize that someone could be me)
07:56:57  <Supercheese> Yes, could use an update or two
07:57:06  <Supercheese> it doesn't have "getdate" for one
07:57:20  <planetmaker> andythenorth, just use smaller font ;)
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08:03:56  <Supercheese> Columns?
08:08:40  <peter1138> Someone™ should do it...
08:09:11  <planetmaker> @seen someone
08:09:11  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: someone was last seen in #openttd 3 years, 49 weeks, 2 days, 14 hours, 28 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Someone> indeed
08:09:20  <planetmaker> lazy person it seems
08:10:29  <peter1138> @seen somebody
08:10:29  <DorpsGek> peter1138: I have not seen somebody.
08:13:47  <V453000> OR PICTURZ
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08:29:27  <andythenorth> roadtypes!
08:30:22  <andythenorth> mostly so steam trams don’t have wires
08:30:43  <andythenorth> no gameplay reason
08:31:06  <andythenorth> can’t we just forget roadtypes, and set a tile-has-power bit instead?
08:31:14  <andythenorth> then we can have steam / diesel trams with no wires
08:31:19  <andythenorth> and we can have electric trucks and crap
08:36:17  <andythenorth> bbl
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08:42:10  <argoneus> we could also have railroad-has-power
08:42:28  <argoneus> and then you need to haul coal to power stations with cars, and wire electricity to your railroads
08:42:35  <argoneus> else you can't use electrified railroads
08:42:57  <argoneus> we could have 'electricity hopper'
08:43:05  <argoneus> which carries 500 watt-tons
08:45:04  <V453000> ...
08:45:13  <V453000> just have batteries :)
08:51:00  <Rubidium> argoneus: doesn't help screenshot show which options there are? For example 'screenshot giant <filename>'
08:57:38  <argoneus> Rubidium: it said no video driver available
08:57:48  <argoneus> I think the server needs to be able to run the actual game to take a screenshot?
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08:58:37  <Xaroth|Work> dedicated server can't produce screenshots
08:58:47  <Xaroth|Work> unless you run it with a video driver
08:59:03  <argoneus> aw, there goes my idea of having automatic screenshots of current progress
09:03:47  <planetmaker> maybe I should un-earth my keep-blitter-for-dedicated-server-patch :P
09:05:02  <argoneus> keep-blitter?
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09:15:19  <Xaroth|Work> argoneus: a 'trick' to be able to make screenshots with the dedicated server
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09:16:40  <argoneus> how does that work?
09:20:05  <planetmaker> the cheap way is to remove some #ifdef
09:22:49  <argoneus> but without a video driver and starting the game
09:22:54  <argoneus> you cannot draw pictures
09:22:55  <argoneus> no?
09:23:34  <argoneus> I mean, you probably can in theory
09:23:41  <argoneus> but is that how ottd works?
09:25:12  <peter1138> well it used to be possible but then someone™ removed it, because in general servers rendering is not wanted
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09:25:43  <peter1138> the change to reenable it is probably quite simple. if you know the code.
09:25:52  <peter1138> which planetmaker clearly does :)
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09:35:02  <argoneus> how does the giant screenshot work anyway?
09:35:10  <argoneus> does it just take the map array and render tile by tile into a picture?
09:35:20  <argoneus> or is it something different
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09:35:58  <Xaroth|Work> close enough
09:37:20  <peter1138> something like that
09:39:12  <argoneus> so it's just some sdl routine to render the tiles and save it into an image?
09:39:20  <argoneus> e.g. it doesn't necessarily need a GPU or the game running?
09:39:23  <argoneus> ie*
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09:47:06  <argoneus> how do you guys log the server and have access to console at the same time?
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09:57:11  <Tykling-9167> I am on a windows laptop without a mouse and I've tried configuring "function of scrollwheel" to "scroll map" but I am still unable to scroll the map
09:58:21  <Tykling-9167> if it is set to "zoom map" it zooms in and out alright, isn't it weird that it won't scroll the map then ?
09:59:25  <peter1138> nothing to do with SDL
10:00:02  <Tykling-9167> was that for me ?
10:00:05  <peter1138> no
10:00:09  <Tykling-9167> :) ok thanks
10:01:48  <Tykling-9167> hm looks like I can scroll using the "pan at window edge" function
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10:06:52  <wousser> Hi, congrats on the 1.4.3 release. I'm looking for the roadmap for future versions. Seems the one on the wiki is not accurate.
10:09:22  <LordAro> "accurate"
10:09:29  <LordAro> it's nonexistent :p
10:09:51  <wousser> It was with the 0.7 releases ;)
10:10:34  <wousser> So where are the bugs, new features, enhancements now taken from? The bugtracker?
10:11:27  <LordAro> largely
10:11:52  <wousser> However, none of the issues are tagged to releases
10:14:21  <planetmaker> argoneus, some months (or years) ago was sufficient
10:15:34  <peter1138> and if it's not a dedicated server build...
10:15:37  <planetmaker> wousser, there is no road map. Fixing bugs is surely a priority. Features and other changes happen as they do
10:15:57  <peter1138> just specifying a resolution and a blitter might let you do it
10:16:51  <planetmaker> I  think that's how it worked, peter1138. The cfg had a blitter and a resolution. And then the screenshot command would write images using those two
10:17:29  <planetmaker> it's a bit ago when coop used that patch on servers
10:17:31  <peter1138> yeah, well the someone™ who disabled it by default was... er... well...
10:18:06  <planetmaker> it's disabled for long. Dunno when or why actually. I recon it could be changed to be allowed by a separate compiler flag
10:18:19  <planetmaker> like KEEP_BLITTER or whatever
10:18:30  <peter1138> just compile a non-dedicated build and it'll be fine
10:18:39  <peter1138> it's only a couple of extra libs ;p
10:19:08  <peter1138> who even compiles dedicated builds?
10:19:22  <peter1138> our premade binaries are always full, aren't they?
10:19:51  <planetmaker> yes, they are. coop and reddit compile, for what I know. I don't know any other servers
10:20:08  <peter1138> i used to but i'm lazy now
10:20:15  <peter1138> only compile for trunk heh
10:20:35  <planetmaker> the need for the full xlibs is big. Just enabling blitter keeps deps low
10:20:53  <planetmaker> yeah... so do I. Server updates are easy... just call !update on irc for me :)
10:21:08  <peter1138> hmm
10:21:10  <peter1138> ah of course
10:21:17  <peter1138> i have mono on my server, so that lot is already there :S
10:21:19  <planetmaker> admin port client for the win :)
10:21:22  <peter1138> forgot about that
10:21:36  <peter1138> so when do we start making dedicated server builds? :p
10:22:28  <planetmaker> ask TrueBrain. We got not the server to do since June :P
10:22:39  <planetmaker> yay for unwarranted highlight also :P
10:22:46  <peter1138> not the server?
10:23:10  <planetmaker> our server where the CF runs on. It's got more ram, more cpu than before. So CF should easily handle that
10:23:40  <planetmaker> would still probably not be worth it. Dunno
10:25:08  <peter1138> not the server means you don't have it... but... ok
10:25:31  <peter1138> is it still ovh?
10:26:22  <peter1138> i have a 16GB 3GHz quad core with ovh, heh
10:26:32  <planetmaker> yeah. So does OpenTTD :P
10:26:39  <peter1138> no raid though
10:26:47  <peter1138> so only a single 2TB disk
10:26:54  <peter1138> == backups are vital :p
10:27:03  <peter1138> i mean, they are anyway, but still
10:28:14  <planetmaker> 2*2TB raid1 for OpenTTD
10:29:06  <planetmaker> hm, though I think we have 32GB ram... I forgot :P
10:29:22  <peter1138> it's the best box i have access to :(
10:29:40  <planetmaker> <-- bit modified system from that
10:29:56  <planetmaker> no ssd as they were too small for our banannananananas stuff
10:29:59  <peter1138> mine is a kimsufi one
10:30:05  <peter1138> they're a bit cheaper
10:30:19  <peter1138> also only 100mbit, not 1gbit
10:30:44  <peter1138> i looked at soyoustart until i realised the price quote was for a *half* month... o_O
10:31:17  <planetmaker> yeah, they must have changed that. I find that... mis-leading trickery
10:31:41  <peter1138> it was to do with a half price offer, but it was for 2 weeks only
10:31:43  <planetmaker> soyoustart is ovh, btw
10:31:55  <peter1138> so the only price shown was the 2 week price
10:31:56  <peter1138> yes i know
10:32:01  <peter1138> as is kimsufi
10:32:05  <planetmaker> ah
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10:33:41  <peter1138> i wouldn't do serious hosting on it, but it's good enough for game servers and the like
10:34:17  <peter1138> now i just need to get the other people involved to cough up their part of the cost, hah
10:38:38  <planetmaker> @ports
10:38:38  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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10:44:11  <argoneus> oh so just remove the guards
10:44:14  <argoneus> I'll try it thanks planetmaker
10:50:47  <planetmaker> argoneus, it won't help you, unless you compile all clients from the same modified source, though
10:52:51  <argoneus> planetmaker: wait
10:52:56  <argoneus> the clients need the exact same source?
10:53:12  <argoneus> I thought it was enough if they both reported the same version
10:53:18  <argoneus> and checksu--- oh
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10:56:47  <efess> no they don't need the exact same source, you can compile client side changes and not change the version just fine
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10:59:59  <planetmaker> -.-
11:00:33  <planetmaker> and be happy about all your desyncs and stuff. And wasting our time with pointless bug reports when things go wrong with openttd which claims to be what it isn't :(
11:00:48  <planetmaker> please do not ever recommend that
11:01:09  <efess> I don't recommend it, I'm just saying you can
11:01:13  <planetmaker> if you modify the source, be so honest to actually state that you modified it
11:01:24  <efess> and we don't do that
11:01:34  <planetmaker> I know
11:01:47  <planetmaker> and I'm quite happy about that
11:06:58  <efess> is there any console command that can tell you what gamescript is loaded?
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11:07:25  <planetmaker> try gamelog
11:10:04  <efess> Just shows grf and savegame data, good to know about that though
11:13:59  <planetmaker> efess, it *should* show GS data, too... hm... maybe it doesn't, then it's a valid feature request
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11:23:21  <Eddi|zuHause> > env x='() { :;}; echo vulnerable' bash -c "echo test"
11:23:23  <Eddi|zuHause> bash: Warnung: x: ignoring function definition attempt
11:23:24  <Eddi|zuHause> bash: Fehler beim Importieren der Funktionsdefinition fÃŒr `x'.
11:23:26  <Eddi|zuHause> test
11:24:56  <LordAro> grats :)
11:25:34  <planetmaker> efess, please feel invited to remedy the situation and submit a patch :)
11:25:43  <planetmaker> maybe also as extra command
11:26:52  <efess> I can look into it
11:27:18  <planetmaker> maybe two or three new commands:
11:27:30  <planetmaker> listactivenewgrf, listactiveai, listactivegame
11:28:02  <planetmaker> in similarity to listai, listgame. There's no listnewgrf yet, though
11:28:57  <efess> we had an issue with CB, came down to the wrong cb script in the content_download folder
11:29:06  <efess> ah
11:29:31  <efess> it would also be useful for stats/gamestatus
11:30:07  <planetmaker> listing the active game script in gamelog would also be useful, yes. It's part of crashlog already
11:30:44  <planetmaker> but it might make sense to indicate in gamelog when / if the active GS changes or on reload is not found
11:30:56  <planetmaker> and which is used on start, similar to listed NewGRFs
11:31:50  <planetmaker> maybe you can formulate an idea on what would be nice and first have that up for discussion. There surely are some more people who might have valuable input
11:32:07  <planetmaker> but having some working solution first often is a good idea, too :P
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11:38:39  <argoneus> someone on the internet just called me autistic for playing this game :(
11:40:13  <planetmaker> it's on the internet. Thus must be true
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12:47:04  <fjb> Moin.
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12:53:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i just screwed up my system. wish me luck :p
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12:54:09  <peter1138> \o/
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12:57:47  <argoneus> I just crashed a server at work
12:57:48  <argoneus> :(
12:58:04  <peter1138> ...
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12:59:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i moved my / to another disk ages ago, but i can't get the bootloader to install on this disk ./
12:59:57  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: what does it say?
13:00:13  <Eddi|zuHause> "grub loading stage 1.5" and then reboot...
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13:11:48  <peter1138> hmm, need to patch my nas, i guess
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15:18:13  <Jiinxs> Is it possible to change the default folder the game goes to for saving/loading games?
15:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:22:41  <Eddi|zuHause> move everything, especially the openttd.cfg to a different directory, and use that as "working directory" when starting openttd
15:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> all default paths are relative to the location of openttd.cfg
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15:36:46  <Jiinxs> okey, will test that out. Thanks.
15:37:19  <Jiinxs> Started a new game. GOnna try to only use cars ;p
15:37:55  <Alberth> 64x64 map, with firs full economy :p
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15:44:10  <Jiinxs> I picked a huge map, I think it 2048x2048 ^^
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15:50:34  <Alberth> I never play bigger than 512x512
15:50:59  <Alberth> although with a weird size can be fun (256x1024)
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15:55:10  <Alberth> how much of such a large map do you actually use? Maps of that size that I have looked at are often just mainly empty
15:55:39  <peter1138> sparse towns :D
15:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the most i got was 50% of a 1024x2048 map
16:03:03  <Alberth> I recently started building while paused, it makes a large difference in your speed of growth
16:03:12  <peter1138> cheat!
16:03:35  <peter1138> but okay, time does fly
16:03:39  <Alberth> although in the early years you lack money to do large extensions
16:04:39  <Alberth> the downside is that you see less trains moving around
16:05:48  <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r26923 trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp (2014-09-26 16:05:42 UTC)
16:05:49  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Make multiplayer lobby fit to icon size.
16:06:24  <peter1138> heh, 4X ui is dumb :p
16:06:52  <Alberth> at least you never miss the button :p
16:06:58  <peter1138> true, true
16:07:16  <peter1138> or not
16:07:21  <peter1138> maybe it's useful on a phone screen?
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16:09:08  <Alberth> for as far as openttd + phone is a useful combination ? :)
16:09:14  <peter1138> hmm, error windows are a bit narrow
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16:15:55  <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r26924 trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp (2014-09-26 16:15:50 UTC)
16:15:56  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Fit YES/NO query window buttons to window, instead of unaligned.
16:16:19  <peter1138> oh, it's only caps in the code, never mind ;p
16:16:29  <peter1138> hmm, newgrf window too high ;(
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16:20:15  <peter1138> hmm
16:20:24  <peter1138> can we put void tiles in the middle of the map?
16:21:24  <argoneus> V453000: is there a particular reason for superstrong trains?
16:21:35  <argoneus> my MEDIUM trains seem to be good enough for oil, even uphill
16:22:10  <frosch123> peter1138: most likely you can, they will be unbridgeable and untunnelable
16:22:13  <peter1138> why does there need to be a reason?
16:22:28  <argoneus> because I assume they were made with something in mind?
16:22:44  <peter1138> needing a reason leads to the peril of andythenorth
16:22:51  <frosch123> argoneus: how long do they need to accelerator from 0 to max speed on a slope?
16:23:02  <argoneus> why would they accelerate on a slope
16:23:24  <frosch123> yuo can easily adjust the "good enough" to "not good enough" :p
16:23:38  <frosch123> stopping at a signal?
16:23:51  <argoneus> I try not to put signals before slopes
16:23:56  <Sylf> super strong classes can take super short corners without slowing down
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16:25:26  <argoneus> ah
16:25:31  <argoneus> so if my trains go mostly on long plains
16:25:34  <argoneus> then it makes sense medium is enough?
16:25:49  <Sylf> NUTS isn't built for flat maps
16:25:59  <Sylf> but for that, fast class is good enough
16:25:59  <argoneus> the map isn't flat
16:26:01  <argoneus> I made it flat :D
16:26:10  <Sylf> that's even worse >_<
16:26:20  <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> needing a reason leads to the peril of andythenorth <-- but the whole point of NUTS was all gameplay and no "realism"?
16:26:40  <argoneus> I just can't really calculate in my head
16:26:48  <argoneus> how much horsepower/tractive effort I need for my cargo
16:26:54  <Pinkbeast> signals before slopes really caught me out in UKRS2 where the Crampton has essentially no tractive effort
16:27:12  <Sylf> We don't really think about just enough
16:27:32  <Sylf> for that, most NUTS engines are overpowered
16:27:44  <Pinkbeast> argoneus: I generally start with the locomotive and fiddle the train length post-facto
16:28:01  <Sylf> especially the later generation ones
16:28:47  <peter1138> hmm, status bar is a bit wierd with giant fonts
16:28:53  <peter1138> could do with stretch
16:28:55  <peter1138> ing
16:29:07  <Sylf> compare any NUTS engines with any engines from other sets from similar years - all NUTS engines have huge TE
16:29:18  <Alberth> (18:20:24) peter1138: can we put void tiles in the middle of the map?  <-- didn't y3xo did that one time?
16:29:26  <Alberth> *do
16:29:54  <Alberth> with his head to head version
16:31:35  <frosch123> peter1138: make it span the whole width, and make tickers scroll vertically
16:36:51  <Rubidium> make its width proportional to the font size?
16:37:25  <Eddi|zuHause> would that not be helpful for almost all windows?
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16:38:54  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: isn't the essential definition of a ticker that it spits out letter by letter?
16:39:52  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but they already scale mostly by font size in some manner. The status bar center section just gets smaller and smaller
16:40:05  <peter1138> yeah, most windows scale
16:40:12  <peter1138> just, only to text
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16:51:19  <frosch123> if we make the ticker scroll vertically, we could also allow resizing it vertically, so the last n messages are visible
16:51:26  <frosch123> which would maybe make it even useful
16:52:04  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: your ticker focuses on realism :p i prefer gameplay
16:53:12  <Alberth> :)
16:53:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd start by making the ticker not block real news, and clicking on the ticker pop up the news history instead of the last message
16:54:17  <peter1138> go on then
16:54:23  <peter1138> i'm not making functional changes
16:54:32  <peter1138> just merely fixing up things to scale
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16:54:49  <Alberth> I don't think that helps enough, you want some sort of higher level summary instead
16:55:52  <Alberth> if "real news" gets delayed, the ticker news is old too, probably
16:56:30  <Alberth> which would suggest "too much" news
16:58:32  <Alberth> which is of course to be expected if you make the world larger by a factor 16 or more
17:02:52  <argoneus> are there any disadvantages to RoRo?
17:03:16  <Sylf> takes more space
17:03:24  <Sylf> it can take more space*
17:03:30  <argoneus> ah
17:03:34  <argoneus> so if space is not an issue, I am good?
17:03:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yes. but what makes the ticker worse than "real news" is that you can't speed it up with space bar.
17:04:12  <Sylf> and it can give a false impression that roro is the answer to all congestions
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17:04:50  <Alberth> but people like simple answers to problems :p
17:05:09  <Sylf> yes, the absolute yes/no answers with no pain
17:05:17  * Sylf starts handing out pain pills
17:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause> those people have point-to-point lines without signals
17:05:54  <argoneus> Sylf: well, I usually go for terminus stations with multiple separated entrances and exits
17:05:58  <argoneus> but RoRo seems nice too
17:06:11  <Alberth> roro is a bit boring to build :)
17:07:11  <argoneus> it is?
17:08:17  <Alberth> no traffic that encounters each other
17:08:59  * argoneus shrugs
17:09:30  <Alberth> but just build what you like :)
17:10:06  <Pinkbeast> Where something like a pax line runs both ways, a ro-ro with shared platforms in the middle is a bit more interesting.
17:13:32  <LordAro> <-- some database shenanigans? the "corrupted" libraries are pretty important for AI, so probably should be looked into..
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17:24:52  <Rubidium> LordAro: there are a lot of duplicate file names, I attempted to remove some duplicates (changing names). Seems it didn't work as expected
17:25:06  <argoneus> well
17:25:14  <argoneus> I just tried experimenting with a station design
17:25:28  <argoneus> would you mind giving me your opinion on this?
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17:26:27  <argoneus> though I should probably drop the block signals on the outgoing path
17:27:32  <argoneus> or at least drop that one path signal there
17:28:59  <Pinkbeast> It's not totally clear to me how trains get out of some of the platforms, or into others
17:29:25  <argoneus> hmm
17:29:26  <frosch123> argoneus: do you want trains from the very left platform to exit via the line on the very right?
17:29:30  <Pinkbeast> ... oh, wait, by dragging lengthways across the front of the station? Bleh.
17:29:31  <argoneus> I should've probably alternated the exits
17:29:34  <frosch123> and blocking all platforms by doing that?
17:29:40  <argoneus> would alternating exits help?
17:29:44  <argoneus> entry/exit/entry/exit
17:29:45  <argoneus> etc
17:30:00  <frosch123> for a start, remove some tracks :)
17:30:05  <frosch123> give the trains less options
17:30:09  <argoneus> I'm completely new to 2 line tracks
17:30:13  <argoneus> with one line it's easier
17:30:25  <frosch123> don't allow them to cross the junction in a way that blocks all lines
17:31:29  <Pinkbeast> Also both incoming/exit lines don't have to serve all platforms
17:31:34  <LordAro> Rubidium: woops :p
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17:35:52  <Pinkbeast> I might - numbering the platforms 1-8 - line the incoming lines up with platforms 1 and 8, but able to access any platform (but they'll prefer to go to their own edges); align the outgoing lines with 0 and 9, so to speak, with 1-4 feeding into 0 and 5-8 feeding into 9; then use tunnels or bridges to join up the outgoing lines later.
17:36:34  <argoneus> how about this?
17:37:36  <Pinkbeast> That's more plausible. I dislike trains turning more than 45 degrees overall at station entrances; I'd build slightly bigger knitting to accomodate that.
17:38:13  <Pinkbeast> Also the signals on the exits seem to reflect different maximum train lengths
17:38:25  <argoneus> they are just at the junctions
17:39:02  <Pinkbeast> But if they can be pushed back towards the station a bit without allowing a train to foul the exit pointwork, so much the better...
17:40:22  <Pinkbeast> For example, - a train never turns more than 45 degrees from the station/track axis
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17:44:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: should probably update your newstations
17:46:40  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26925 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-09-26 17:46:30 UTC)
17:46:41  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:42  <DorpsGek> croatian - 14 changes by VoyagerOne
17:46:43  <DorpsGek> german - 49 changes by planetmaker
17:46:44  <DorpsGek> spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
17:46:45  <DorpsGek> welsh - 3 changes by kazzie
17:46:46  <argoneus> okay
17:46:49  <argoneus> I came up with this Pinkbeast
17:46:59  <argoneus>
17:47:09  <argoneus> is this what you meant
17:48:48  <Eddi|zuHause> seems decent, except i would scratch the first X at the entrance and the last X at the exit
17:48:56  <argoneus> really? why?
17:49:04  <argoneus> I need to re-balance the lines somehow, no?
17:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> that is a neat idea, but crossovers at a main line never work out
17:49:27  <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: That's an ollld screenshot
17:49:45  <argoneus> where do I re-balance them, then?
17:49:55  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't
17:50:03  <Pinkbeast> argoneus: Well, I find that more aesthetically satisfying, anyway.
17:50:03  <argoneus> huh
17:50:13  <Eddi|zuHause> just put exactly the same number of trains on either network
17:50:56  <Pinkbeast> If you were going to, I'd let trains from platforms 4 and 5 choose which exit line to use.
17:51:09  <argoneus> oh
17:51:11  <argoneus> that's a good idea
17:52:55  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the signal gap on the exit seems too large (between the first signal and the second signal)
17:53:55  <Eddi|zuHause> in general, the signal gap should be smaller in areas where trains accelerate
17:54:15  <argoneus> ?
17:54:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, pretty much
17:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> now let the trains roam!
17:54:47  <Rubidium> LordAro: I think it should be solved now
17:55:01  <argoneus> now to make the other station
17:55:01  <argoneus> :D
17:55:08  <Pinkbeast> Well, I'd still lose the "skate right across the entrance" line at a right angle to the axis.
17:55:18  <Pinkbeast> ... oh, which has come back.
17:55:27  <argoneus> it's so they can choose a line from the other end
17:55:31  <argoneus> but they won't prioritize that, no?
17:55:34  <argoneus> only as last resort
17:55:42  <Eddi|zuHause> they should NEVER go to the other end
17:55:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that will ALWAYS cause more harm than good
17:56:00  <argoneus> okay
17:56:05  <argoneus> I'll just lose the perpendicular
17:56:12  <argoneus> and then it should be ok?
17:56:26  <Pinkbeast> Quite. Letting 4 and 5 swap over provides a bit of rebalancing, but letting 1 steam across to 8 is bleh.
17:56:42  <argoneus> true
17:56:48  <argoneus> that could block traffic for a long while
17:57:54  <Pinkbeast> It depends a bit on train length, speed, and power/TE. A 9F can get a lot of coal moving, but it's not exactly a quick process. (And if trains are arriving full, or leaving)
17:58:39  <Pinkbeast> Particularly when flattening out land, I'll flatten up for a loading station, so empties go uphill into it, but full trains run downhill when accelerating.
17:59:09  <Pinkbeast> And even for a pax station there's something to be said for that. (The technique is used for-real on the Tube)
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18:14:31  <andythenorth> o/
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18:17:17  <fjb> Moin andythenorth
18:17:49  <LordAro> /o
18:19:02  <peter1138> morning
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18:31:26  <andythenorth> powered bit for road tiles?
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18:36:34  <peter1138> damn, why are FISH sprites so BIG?
18:37:51  <andythenorth> you mean the ones that stick out of the canals?
18:38:00  <andythenorth> and the depots?
18:38:03  <andythenorth> and overlap the docks?
18:38:12  <andythenorth> and the locks?
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18:38:27  <andythenorth> and flicker
18:38:30  <peter1138> i mean the sprites which are padding out with transparent pixels
18:38:47  <andythenorth> probably didn’t set nocrop?
18:39:00  <andythenorth> this is FISH 1?
18:39:10  <andythenorth> or 0.9.2 or whatever
18:39:16  <peter1138> yeagh
18:39:49  <peter1138> hmm, apparently i have fish 2
18:39:52  <peter1138> but it doesn't appear in my list
18:40:36  <andythenorth> needs a recent nightly ottd
18:40:42  <andythenorth> keeps the riff-raff out
18:41:27  <andythenorth> big bounding boxes on FISH and squids
18:41:58  <Alberth> o/
18:42:31  <peter1138> yeah, fish 2 is better
18:42:37  <peter1138> fish 1 appears to have loads of blank space
18:42:44  <peter1138> makes the highlight weird
18:43:10  <andythenorth> there was one version where I accidentally filled everything blue
18:43:15  <andythenorth> and then committed :P
18:43:26  <andythenorth> but I didn’t think that would be significant
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19:36:25  <andythenorth> trucks trucks trucks trucks
19:36:27  <andythenorth> and trams
19:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause> "apple does not let its iOS testing team access the actual hardware before public release"
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19:37:28  <Eddi|zuHause> wtf do they test then? whether it compiles?
19:37:41  <Alberth> usability compliance?
19:38:01  <andythenorth> reference platform
19:38:05  <andythenorth> in software probably
19:38:41  <andythenorth> or they are alleged to have reference systems in sealed boxes, with a shell over telnet or whatever
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19:58:02  <andythenorth> quiet eh?
19:58:31  <peter1138> i'm hmming at ships still
19:58:38  <andythenorth> what have they done to you?
19:58:48  <peter1138> well the code is there to make it scale
19:58:51  <peter1138> but it doesnt' :p
19:59:14  <peter1138> is the sprite shown the depot not the same as the depot sprite? somehow?
20:00:00  <andythenorth> not intentionally at newgrf level
20:00:48  <andythenorth> I don’t check where the sprite is being shown
20:00:55  <andythenorth> Iron Horse does that for trains :P
20:01:04  <andythenorth> bloody faff
20:01:19  <peter1138> do you have separate sprites for depot?
20:01:46  <peter1138> and/or purchase list sprites
20:02:06  * andythenorth checks in Squid
20:02:21  <peter1138> yeah
20:02:29  <peter1138> different purchase list sprites
20:03:03  <andythenorth> uses a purchase spriteset
20:03:12  <andythenorth> which probably resolves to different realsprites or something
20:03:14  <andythenorth> nml is magical
20:03:20  <peter1138> only for purchase?
20:03:24  <peter1138> or for purchase & depot?
20:03:36  <andythenorth> only purchase afaict
20:03:42  <andythenorth> no reason to muck about with depot
20:03:49  <peter1138> not sure why depot exists
20:04:07  <andythenorth> for ships, no idea
20:04:11  <andythenorth> trains it’s needed
20:04:17  <peter1138> why?
20:04:40  <andythenorth> can’t remember the original reason, but me and Eddi|zuHause use it for magical 3-part train bollocks
20:04:53  <andythenorth> because articulated trains don’t work properly in depot
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20:04:58  <andythenorth> it’s a right faff
20:05:17  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: invisible front parts are difficult to drag around
20:07:07  <peter1138> well i'm pretty sure ships 2 is using purchase list sprites for depot sprites
20:07:24  <peter1138> which means the depot cell size isn't big enough
20:07:28  <andythenorth> might be what nml does
20:07:32  <andythenorth> or I screwed up
20:07:43  <peter1138> yeah it might be that if you have purchase list sprites it automatically does that
20:07:55  <andythenorth> blearch :)
20:08:06  <peter1138> bad feature!
20:08:45  <peter1138> well, i might just clip it, like that done for trains & RVs
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20:12:00  <andythenorth> this RV buy menu is getting big
20:12:19  <andythenorth> 51 vehicles now
20:12:25  <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE
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20:16:04  <peter1138> now play with vehicles that expire
20:19:44  <andythenorth> shocking idea
20:24:06  <andythenorth> 4x zoom is so bracing
20:24:12  <andythenorth> also useful for checking sprites
20:24:39  <peter1138> 2x UI is rather spiffing!
20:24:47  <peter1138> I deny just being old...
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20:25:22  <andythenorth> I am old
20:26:29  <peter1138> Sure
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20:43:40  <peter1138> woo, it crashed
20:45:41  <andythenorth> hmm
20:45:44  <andythenorth> expiring vehicles
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20:55:00  <smith1232> hi, all. i am trying to setup a dedicated server behind a router. for some reason, nmap says tcp 3979 is open (service smwan), but udp 3979 is open|filtered (service unknown). does anyone have a clue as to what might be the case here?
20:56:02  <planetmaker> @ports
20:56:02  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
20:57:41  <smith1232> yeah, i have all of those open in my port forwarding router settings.
20:57:55  <smith1232> but something is obviously incorrect, have no idea what.
20:58:04  <smith1232> granted, my router is a piece of junk.
20:58:05  <Rubidium> doesn't filtered imply that it's firewalled?
20:58:16  <smith1232> open|filtered means nmap doesnt know.
20:58:23  <smith1232> but yes, filtered would be firewalled.
20:58:26  <smith1232> and it is not.
20:58:36  <Rubidium> also, many routers' forwarding only works from outside to the inside, not from inside to inside
20:58:55  <Rubidium> or at least the cheap broadband ones ISPs give
20:58:57  <smith1232> let me try to explain: iptables is letting everything through, the firewall on the router is off.
20:59:20  <smith1232> of course, i am trying to access the game "from the outside"
20:59:29  <smith1232> not really, but i am using the outside ip of the router
20:59:40  <smith1232> which should mean that the packets go out and back, right?
20:59:51  <peter1138> no
20:59:51  <Rubidium> yeah, so if you're on the "inside"... then it's likely not going to work
20:59:56  <smith1232> hm
21:00:09  <smith1232> could someone help me test then?
21:00:19  <Rubidium> is it advertising?
21:00:29  <smith1232> no
21:00:56  <smith1232> i would give you the ip
21:00:59  <Rubidium> enable that, if it shows up at then it works (or at least the UDP)
21:01:10  <smith1232> ok, lemme go ahead and do that
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21:03:17  <smith1232> hm, there seems to be no advertise flag for the server.
21:03:25  <smith1232> do i need an openttd.cfg for that?
21:03:28  <smith1232> because there is none
21:03:58  <smith1232> (i mean in cli, there is no switch)
21:05:09  <Rubidium> it's a setting in the config file (shutdown the server before editing it)
21:06:21  <smith1232> there is no file
21:06:46  <andythenorth> fancy
21:06:47  <smith1232> when you unpack the 1.4.3 archive
21:06:57  <smith1232> i need to create it i suppose?
21:06:58  * andythenorth uses _private attributes
21:07:09  <Rubidium> like the readme says, it'll likely be in ~/.openttd/
21:07:14  <smith1232> no
21:07:27  <smith1232> i unpacked the file i downloaded from the site
21:07:38  <smith1232> lemme see which...
21:08:03  <smith1232>
21:08:05  <smith1232> hm
21:08:15  <smith1232> yeah, i did that since i had gentoo earlier on that puter
21:08:22  <smith1232> maybe i should just install the ubuntu thing now
21:08:28  <smith1232> i am running ubuntu server on there
21:08:35  <Rubidium> still... ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg
21:09:15  <smith1232> i do have that. but i think that's only because i have the old version installed
21:09:24  <smith1232> i did that to get all the dependencies
21:09:27  <smith1232> without having to worry
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21:09:44  <smith1232> still, i suppose the new version that is only unpacked reads that anyway.
21:09:57  <smith1232> do you think its a problem that the .cfg is from an older version?
21:09:59  <Rubidium> smith1232: what does the readme say about it?
21:10:01  <smith1232> i think 1.3.smth?
21:10:11  * Rubidium is off to bed
21:10:42  <andythenorth> also bedtime
21:11:07  <andythenorth> bye
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21:11:11  <smith1232> thanks for your help Rubidium
21:11:17  <smith1232> night guys
21:12:02  <smith1232> if anyone else can help me, that would be awesome
21:13:08  <argoneus> >want to look up how to make a simple sideline hub
21:13:11  <argoneus> >go to wiki
21:13:13  <argoneus> >it's complex
21:14:52  <smith1232> yep, udp works
21:15:05  <smith1232> i.e. my server is now advertised
21:15:13  <smith1232> however, i see it as within my household
21:15:21  <smith1232> which is probably not that strange
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22:58:04  <argoneus> how do wetrails work?
22:58:09  <argoneus> I thought you could place them on water :(
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23:10:11  <Eddi|zuHause> no. they just look like water. for the game they work like rails, so they must be placed on land
23:12:12  <argoneus> oh
23:14:28  <argoneus> also
23:14:45  <argoneus> the bottom part of this
23:14:52  <argoneus>
23:15:02  <argoneus> why is there the unreachable part with the combo signals?
23:15:07  <argoneus> wouldn't doublesided combo signals work?
23:15:12  <argoneus> without special shenanigans
23:15:32  <Eddi|zuHause> no, because they would effectively increase the signal distance
23:15:55  <argoneus> don't they behave as block signals in the direction where no entry signal is specified?
23:16:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the combo signal is both an entry and an exit signal
23:16:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so when one is red, all are red
23:16:29  <Eddi|zuHause> in both directions
23:16:51  <argoneus> oh
23:16:59  <argoneus> so if I have onesided entry signal, and twosided combo signal
23:17:06  <argoneus> then if entry is red, both combo are red?
23:17:24  <argoneus> I thought it only worked in the one way
23:17:26  <argoneus> ohhhh
23:17:31  <argoneus> it behaves as an entry signal in the one direction
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23:46:32  <argoneus> is there a reason why there cannot be signal type A in one direction and signal type B in another direction?
23:46:36  <argoneus> is it difficult to implement?
23:47:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that would mean in a tile with || or = rails, there are 4 different signals on it
23:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause> needs too many bits
23:47:23  <Eddi|zuHause> also, it's fiddly
23:47:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody uses block signals anyway
23:48:13  <argoneus> I d o :(
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23:50:26  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: so you would need 12*4 bits for each tile?
23:50:30  <argoneus> just for signals
23:50:35  <argoneus> er
23:50:36  <argoneus> 12*2*4
23:51:09  <argoneus> ^ nevermind
23:51:59  <Eddi|zuHause> 3 bits for signal type, 1 bit for signal state, 1 bit for style
23:52:26  <Eddi|zuHause> 1 bit for whether the signal is present
23:52:33  <Eddi|zuHause> so 6*4
23:53:01  <argoneus> so if you wanted to do it separately
23:53:14  <argoneus> you would need 3! * 2 for signal type?
23:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause> that makes no sense
23:53:30  <argoneus> I mean, 12 values
23:53:33  <argoneus> which is, 4 bits
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23:53:54  <Eddi|zuHause> there are 8 signal types (2 unused)
23:54:02  <argoneus> ah
23:54:11  <argoneus> and if you were to cover all combinations
23:54:29  <argoneus> it'd be many more
23:54:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the combinations are with repetition, so 8^4
23:54:56  <Eddi|zuHause> plus style, etc.
23:56:30  <argoneus> oh, right
23:56:36  <argoneus> I need to remove the dust on my combinatorics
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