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00:14:06 *** liq3 [~liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:14:53 *** liq3 [~liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 00:16:58 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:18:07 *** FLHerne_ [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:19:02 *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz 00:21:01 *** qwebirc42417 [~oftc-webi@grm-128-39-146-62.studby.uia.no] has joined #openttd 00:21:08 *** qwebirc42417 is now known as borbra 00:21:10 <borbra> hi 00:22:20 <borbra> why don't my trains go to the given trainstation? http://i.imgur.com/w5skL7w.png 00:22:50 <borbra> it's in the orderlist, but the just seem to ignore it 00:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> missing electrification 00:23:25 *** fjb is now known as Guest1005 00:23:26 *** fjb [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 00:24:35 <borbra> Eddi|zuHause: now just feel stupid -_- 00:24:52 <Eddi|zuHause> happens to the best of us :p 00:25:07 <borbra> hehe 00:25:13 *** liq3 [~liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:30:43 *** Guest1005 [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:40:31 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 01:10:28 *** MJP [~mjp@hq.z77.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:13:55 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3E90.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/nkczDT] 01:19:01 *** TorCoolguy [~ray@72.31.21.45] has joined #openttd 01:19:10 <TorCoolguy> Hi 01:19:54 <TorCoolguy> my openttd install on mac os x 10.5.8 is not working, I have opengfx installed, but every time I launch openttd it just quits unexpectedly 01:20:11 <TorCoolguy> opengfx is in ~/Documents/OpenTTD/data 01:22:51 <argoneus> shouldn't opengfx be in the baseset folder? 01:22:59 <argoneus> (assuming there is one on mac) 01:23:00 <TorCoolguy> I tried that too 01:23:10 <TorCoolguy> ~/Documents/OpenTTD/basenet 01:23:11 <TorCoolguy> right? 01:23:19 <argoneus> baseset, yes 01:23:28 <TorCoolguy> that's where it is? 01:23:31 <argoneus> yes 01:23:43 <TorCoolguy> good, I have it there 01:23:50 <TorCoolguy> It's supposed to be unpacked, and not in a folder right? 01:23:57 <argoneus> I have it packed 01:24:00 <argoneus> but it shouldn't matter 01:24:02 <TorCoolguy> in a tar? 01:24:04 <argoneus> just dropping the tar into the folder is enough 01:24:04 <TorCoolguy> or in a zip? 01:24:14 <TorCoolguy> should it be called anything? 01:24:21 <argoneus> don't think it matters 01:24:38 <TorCoolguy> still doesn't work :( 01:24:51 <TorCoolguy> OpenTTD 1.4.1 works though, from macports 01:24:54 <argoneus> I have never used mac sorry :< 01:25:04 <argoneus> but on linux it's pretty much extract & run 01:25:11 <TorCoolguy> :( 01:25:20 <TorCoolguy> Sucks... 01:25:21 <argoneus> why macports? 01:25:25 <argoneus> the universal build from website doesn't work? 01:25:30 <TorCoolguy> Yeah it doesn't 01:25:35 <TorCoolguy> Trying to compile it right now 01:25:44 <TorCoolguy> Taking a while since I'm also compiling qt4 01:25:54 <TorCoolguy> and I'm on a powermac g5. 01:29:19 <TorCoolguy> argoneus: should the 1.4.1 and 1.4.3 version of OpenTTD be compatible through multiplayer? 01:29:49 <argoneus> nope 01:30:01 <argoneus> you would get a version mismatch 01:30:02 <TorCoolguy> argoneus: Aw 01:30:12 <TorCoolguy> argoneus: At least that explains that problem. 01:33:59 <TorCoolguy> argoneus: what should I do about this error though? 01:35:25 <argoneus> I have no clue, I have never used a mac :< 01:36:30 <TorCoolguy> argoneus: anyone around here uses macs? 01:37:50 <argoneus> no clue 01:38:15 <TorCoolguy> :( 01:38:49 <glx> why not use the osx version directely ? 01:39:42 <TorCoolguy> I am 01:39:45 <TorCoolguy> doesn't work 01:40:45 <TorCoolguy> glx: It just immediatly quits, I have openglx in the right place 01:41:37 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:42:06 <glx> try to start it from a terminal, to see if there's an error message 01:43:44 <TorCoolguy> glx: LSOpenFromURLSpec() failed with error -10810 for the file /Users/.../openttd.app 01:48:36 <TorCoolguy> glx: any ideas? 01:48:54 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:49:42 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 01:53:00 <glx> that's the code for unknown error 01:53:30 <glx> so launcher fails to start openttd for unknown reason 01:53:41 <TorCoolguy> glx: Yep 01:53:55 <TorCoolguy> glx: When I start openttd directly from inside the package I get a bus error 01:58:18 <argoneus> Xaroth / Xaroth|Work : how did you figure out that you need to force the struct to be little endian? 01:58:28 <argoneus> (libottdadmin2) 01:58:58 <glx> TorCoolguy: I don't know what could be wrong and I'm not an OSX specialist 01:59:13 <TorCoolguy> glx: :L 01:59:17 <TorCoolguy> glx: who is? 01:59:32 <glx> most of them are sleeping at that time 01:59:33 <TorCoolguy> I got 1.4.3 to run 01:59:38 <TorCoolguy> I had to build it 02:01:36 <glx> maybe a broken ppc lib on the compile farm then 02:04:43 <TorCoolguy> hmm maybe 02:05:25 *** borbra [~oftc-webi@grm-128-39-146-62.studby.uia.no] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:05:27 <glx> looks like the comments in http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5694 02:08:24 <TorCoolguy> yeps 02:08:29 <argoneus> when I create a dedicated serveron my machine 02:08:36 <argoneus> should it be accessible on 127.0.0.1? 02:08:54 <glx> argoneus: yes 02:08:54 <TorCoolguy> OpenMSX doesn't work though :( 02:08:57 <TorCoolguy> No music 02:12:09 <TorCoolguy> gix: the music from the online content doesn't work 02:12:14 <TorCoolguy> glx: I downloaded openmsx... 02:13:25 <glx> player is started ? 02:13:30 <TorCoolguy> yes 02:14:29 <glx> argoneus: unless you modified server_bind_ip in cfg 02:15:46 <argoneus> didn't 02:16:04 <glx> so it listen on all available IP 02:16:23 <glx> and localhost is one of them :) 02:18:27 <glx> TorCoolguy: and it's selected in the options ? 02:18:32 <TorCoolguy> glx: yes 02:21:46 <glx> it works for me 02:21:51 <TorCoolguy> glx: :( 02:22:03 <glx> but I'm on windows so that says nothing 02:22:10 <TorCoolguy> yeah... 02:22:13 <TorCoolguy> It works in 1.4.1 though 02:22:41 <glx> maybe a missing lib in your custom build 02:23:55 <TorCoolguy> :( 02:23:57 <TorCoolguy> like what? 02:24:00 <TorCoolguy> sound still works. 02:24:08 <glx> better wait for someone knowing more than me 02:24:17 <TorCoolguy> mkay 02:24:20 <TorCoolguy> I can still play though :D 02:24:24 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 02:52:53 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:06:56 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 03:19:33 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 04:21:03 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:35:18 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 04:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD42BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 04:56:16 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD48CB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 04:57:28 *** Jomann [~abchirk@p57A0849B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 05:03:46 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:11:57 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.26.55] has joined #openttd 05:24:06 *** sla_ro|laptop [~sla.ro@95.76.26.55] has joined #openttd 05:36:39 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 05:49:18 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 05:56:28 <andythenorth> o/ 06:00:56 *** TorCoolguy [~ray@72.31.21.45] has quit [Quit: TorCoolguy] 06:02:57 <Rubidium> moin andythenorth 06:04:08 *** sla_ro|laptop [~sla.ro@95.76.26.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:11:04 <andythenorth> given a dict of year: speed mappings, e.g. {1920: 35, 1940: 55} 06:11:17 <andythenorth> whatâs the most elegant way to return the speed for say, 1927? 06:11:34 <andythenorth> Iâve thought of a couple of ugly ways based on sorting the keys and doing comparisons 06:12:00 <andythenorth> thereâs probably a lambda or a recursion or something thatâs neater 06:25:07 *** Hazzard [~quassel@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25:44 <andythenorth> print foo[max([i for i in foo if bar >= i])] seems to work 06:30:43 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon 06:30:44 <Flygon> ... 06:30:57 <Flygon> ...dunno why I fixed that nick when I am rebooting in 10 minutes 06:32:00 *** Jomann [~abchirk@p57A0849B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:21 <Rubidium> andythenorth: http://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/tutorial/interpolate.html#d-interpolation-interp1d ? 06:42:01 <andythenorth> ho splines and stuff 06:50:39 <andythenorth> hmm 06:50:52 <andythenorth> something you look up per group isnât really a global constant 06:51:00 * andythenorth mumble mumble 06:51:17 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:56:37 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:06:22 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220149.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 07:07:14 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-46-133.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 07:08:34 <Pikka> well 07:12:14 <andythenorth> yes 07:12:21 <andythenorth> you has blagged boots also 07:12:33 <Pikka> bragged bloots? 07:13:14 <andythenorth> indeed 07:14:52 <Pikka> whither? 07:15:36 <andythenorth> so itâs all about refittability? 07:16:29 <Pikka> well, that's my thinking. about refittablility and size. 07:17:11 <andythenorth> makes sense 07:17:22 <Pikka> I mean really we only need one ship 07:17:29 <Pikka> but I don't think players will stand for that 07:18:05 <Supercheese> or sit for it 07:18:12 <Supercheese> or even lie down 07:18:24 *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 07:18:27 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:18:27 <Pikka> so, big bulkers and tankers for the mine and oil rig runs 07:18:38 <Pikka> and smaller widely-refittable ships for everything else 07:18:39 <Pikka> job done 07:18:45 <Alberth> aye 07:20:04 <andythenorth> also tug log 07:20:20 <Pikka> no lug togs, neither fishing boats. :P at least not for me. 07:20:28 <andythenorth> shameful 07:20:36 <andythenorth> how do you catch the hake? 07:20:50 <Pikka> with a trader, probably 07:21:05 <Pikka> or a container ship if they're piece or express :D 07:21:27 <andythenorth> zellepin 07:21:42 <Pikka> zellepin trader 07:22:02 <Pikka> http://pikkarail.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ballastplan1.png Alberth. plenty o' boats. 07:22:59 <Pikka> dan was asking the other day about the hovercarfairy, andythenorth. are you shipping it over to him for pixelwork? 07:23:10 <andythenorth> thatâs an idea 07:23:14 <andythenorth> was going to do it myself 07:23:22 <andythenorth> Water Bus? 07:23:33 <Pikka> little river ferry type of thing 07:23:37 <Pikka> vaporetto 07:23:42 <andythenorth> DUKW 07:23:49 <Pikka> nein 07:24:00 <Alberth> all the years seem a bit same-ish, no? 07:24:08 <andythenorth> LCACV BARC DUKW 130-20 07:24:12 * andythenorth makes things up 07:24:23 * Alberth stops decoding 07:24:31 <andythenorth> I did consider a self-propelled pontoon last week 07:24:33 <andythenorth> silly 07:24:46 <Pikka> same-ish? 07:24:58 <Alberth> a yeti dude could push it :) 07:25:03 * V453000 places a question what the fuck is andythenorth talking about :D 07:25:22 <Alberth> all steam ends at 2000, large -> super all at 2015 07:25:47 <Alberth> V453000: maybe he doesn't know himself either :) 07:26:07 <Pikka> there's a few generations which all come out around the same year, sure. but that's fine. :) 07:26:23 <Pikka> at least it's not all 1870 ;) 07:26:46 <Alberth> indeed, they'd be unused for the first 40 years :p 07:27:01 <andythenorth> V453000: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCAC 07:27:26 <andythenorth> BARC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LARC-LX 07:27:33 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUKW 07:27:36 <andythenorth> nonsenses 07:27:51 <V453000> asdf 07:28:20 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220149.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:27 <Pikka> well, that's just a general idea of when they'd disappear from the buy list 07:28:29 <Alberth> make a silly-vehicles newgrf :) 07:28:37 <V453000> me is creating 8bpp sprites because I discovered tha apparently the amount of retards using 8bpp blitter is not low :D 07:28:44 <V453000> not to mention that it can help with cpu heaviness 07:28:50 <Pikka> chances are players would stop using those ships long before then :) 07:28:56 <V453000> Pikka: does pineapple have proper 8bpp ? :D 07:29:03 <V453000> yeti had just "8bpp placeholders" till now 07:29:05 <Pikka> define "proper 8bpp" 07:29:07 <Alberth> Pikka: fair enough :) 07:29:22 <Pikka> if "proper 8bpp" means "every sprite is a 16 pixel square", then yes. 07:29:43 <V453000> I rather meant "will stuff show properly if someone forces 8bpp blitter" 07:29:52 <Pikka> again 07:29:54 <Pikka> "properly"? ;) 07:30:10 <V453000> well yeti industries e.g. have only 1 tile repeated 16 times :D 07:30:13 <V453000> some of them anyway 07:30:17 <Alberth> you can see it's a WTF industry? :) 07:30:18 <V453000> that is what I would call "not proper" :P 07:30:30 <planetmaker> moin moin 07:30:34 <V453000> aka broken as shit 07:30:36 <Alberth> hi hi 07:30:36 <V453000> hi pm 07:31:11 <Pikka> http://i.imgur.com/gHfLOih.png <- would you call every sprite being that "proper"? 07:31:19 <Pikka> because that's what pineapple does :) 07:31:24 <Alberth> V453000: make a sign "here you can see a beautiful factory if you use 32bpp" 07:31:39 <V453000> XD 07:31:40 <V453000> XD 07:31:41 <V453000> XD 07:31:42 <V453000> XD 07:31:57 <V453000> well done Pikka I like it XD 07:32:22 <planetmaker> I actually like alberth's suggestion :) 07:33:13 * Pikka must went 07:33:16 <Pikka> back in some 07:33:19 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-46-133.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:33:47 * Alberth hopes it's not 'years' 07:43:14 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:44:31 <V453000> what could be causing this? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/51134233/refinery.png 07:44:40 <V453000> the tiles are terraformed to be lowered under the industry 07:44:43 <andythenorth> foundations 07:44:46 <V453000> so there are hilly things 07:44:58 <V453000> hm 07:45:10 <V453000> what do? 07:45:16 <andythenorth> itâs probably the rear foundation sprite that gets drawn 07:45:21 <andythenorth> canât remember what I do to solve it 07:45:23 <andythenorth> quite common 07:45:31 <V453000> hmz 07:45:40 <V453000> I will drop shit on it for now 07:45:43 <andythenorth> move the ground tile 07:45:52 <V453000> like move it down? 07:45:57 <V453000> by offset? 07:46:00 <andythenorth> yes 07:46:05 <andythenorth> right / up 07:46:20 <andythenorth> looks like itâs too far left anyway 07:46:24 <V453000> hm 07:46:29 <andythenorth> the LH foundations are covered up 07:46:34 <V453000> yeah 07:46:51 <V453000> sooo 1 to the right? 07:46:54 <andythenorth> in FIRS I just shuffle them around until they look right in game 07:46:59 <andythenorth> try it with sprite aligner first 07:47:16 <V453000> rite 07:47:23 <andythenorth> maybe you canât bodge us much with EZ, dunno 07:47:27 <andythenorth> us / as /s 07:47:33 <V453000> well yeah x4 is a bit ass in this 07:47:50 <V453000> / a bit / fucking lot 07:48:22 <andythenorth> Iâm not jealous 07:48:29 <V453000> :d 07:48:33 <andythenorth> it probably is worth the effort, but eh 07:48:54 <andythenorth> there are plenty of cute looking pixel games on ipad, my kids like them 07:48:58 <V453000> both things are a lot of effort, both give different output, I wouldnt compare it much 07:49:02 <andythenorth> and theyâre all zoomed up from iphone size 07:49:26 <V453000> I personally like working with 3D very much lately, hence this 07:49:26 <andythenorth> you didnât consider voxels? 07:49:27 <andythenorth> o_O 07:49:30 <V453000> lol 07:49:37 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:50:04 <andythenorth> I am serious :P 07:50:04 <andythenorth> http://voxelbuilder.com 07:51:31 <V453000> :) 07:51:33 <V453000> lego 07:52:03 <andythenorth> http://voxel.codeplex.com 07:52:12 <V453000> I am getting my brain demolished by reading quite complex character animation books lately so even seeing the critter makes my brain explode 07:52:35 <V453000> it looks interesting, I will give them that :P 07:52:42 <V453000> in fact most of yeti objects are boxes, t oo 07:52:50 <andythenorth> http://sproxel.blogspot.co.uk 07:52:56 <V453000> I kind of feel it fits the tile nature of openttd 07:53:04 <andythenorth> ho that one has python plugins 07:53:15 <V453000> ._. 07:53:56 <andythenorth> http://mrdoob.com/projects/voxels/#A/aefafeakkUhUhUhUh 07:54:42 <V453000> STAHP :D 07:55:19 <andythenorth> might have to try that laterâŠ. 07:55:41 <andythenorth> dunno about drawing that for 1x zoom 07:55:50 <andythenorth> pixel art relies on loads of cheats 07:55:53 <V453000> 3D GOGO 07:55:59 <andythenorth> as soon as it is actual cubes, it wonât work right 07:56:17 <andythenorth> most of the time with pixels, what youâre seeing isnât whatâs drawn 07:56:33 <V453000> kind of 07:56:40 <andythenorth> light and dark 07:56:43 <andythenorth> colour blends 07:56:46 <andythenorth> cheating the shapes 07:56:47 <V453000> just creating illusion to make the player perceive what you want him to 07:56:50 <V453000> yes kind of :) 07:56:58 <andythenorth> also voxels are iso not di 07:57:06 <andythenorth> or even perspective 07:57:10 <andythenorth> PITA 07:57:16 <andythenorth> to change the renderer 07:57:16 <V453000> :D 07:57:22 <V453000> you just change camera 07:57:24 <V453000> not renderer 07:57:32 <V453000> one check "orthographic camera" 07:57:32 <V453000> done 07:57:38 <andythenorth> that simple eh? 07:57:39 <andythenorth> winner 07:57:42 <V453000> that simple. 07:57:56 <planetmaker> othographic? Not dimetric? 07:57:57 <andythenorth> imagine trying to do a cylinder with voxels 07:58:02 <andythenorth> for tank wagon 07:58:04 <andythenorth> wonât work 07:58:08 <andythenorth> works in pixels 07:58:16 <V453000> 3ds max calls it orthographic pm :) 07:58:36 <V453000> the shit without perspective. :P 07:59:29 <V453000> I honestly never heard word dimetric in 3D either 07:59:40 <V453000> I dont know which is the technically proper term 07:59:50 <planetmaker> V453000, there's a difference between orthographic and dimetric 08:00:01 <V453000> and isometric? 08:01:12 <V453000> well 3D max calls it Orthographic viewport, anda camera has Orthographic projection :) 08:01:24 <Alberth> dimetric is the angle to get the x/y/z axes in a 2/1 size 08:01:40 <Alberth> + orthographic 08:01:41 <V453000> so isometric with 30deg angle 08:01:47 <V453000> orthographic yeah 08:01:50 <V453000> mixing up words .D 08:02:59 <Alberth> isometric is wider than dimetric, it means "map 3d to 2d" 08:03:17 <V453000> idontgetit 08:03:21 <V453000> BUT my sprites work :D -> win 08:03:27 <Alberth> ie x:y:z = 1:1:1 is also isometric 08:03:38 <planetmaker> both are parallel projections. As is isometric. the angles different 08:03:38 <V453000> right 08:03:51 <andythenorth> bbl 08:03:51 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 08:03:53 <V453000> but everything is orthographic :P 08:04:04 <Alberth> dimetric is also an isometric projection, but such that x:y:z = 2:2:1 08:04:13 <V453000> y 08:04:44 <V453000> the 3D just sets that through camera angle / relative difference from camera target 08:04:50 <Alberth> orthographic is "without perspective", ie lines stay parallel 08:04:57 <V453000> yes exactly 08:05:51 <peter1138> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axonometric_projection#mediaviewer/File:Graphical_projection_comparison.png 08:06:25 <V453000> yarr 08:06:59 <V453000> which seems like openttd uses isometric 08:07:07 <peter1138> nope, isometric doesn't allow the nice 2:1 diagonal lines 08:07:09 <planetmaker> no, dimetric 08:07:19 <V453000> ok :D 08:07:33 <V453000> my shit works under 30deg ortho, end of discussion :P 08:07:34 <V453000> :D 08:07:36 <peter1138> is it dimetric because one of the angles is different 08:08:16 <peter1138> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric_graphics_in_video_games_and_pixel_art 08:09:17 <Supercheese> No Transport Tycoon in that article, boo 08:09:43 * Supercheese debates editing 08:09:47 <planetmaker> If I understand it correctly, dimetric is a special isometric projection which in turn is a special orthogonal projection 08:10:01 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220149.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 08:10:02 <Supercheese> Whoops, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Tycoon says isometric 08:10:13 <planetmaker> you should edit it, Supercheese :) 08:10:17 * Supercheese is confused 08:10:20 <Supercheese> which is it really? 08:10:30 <planetmaker> dimetric as there are two different angles 08:10:55 <peter1138> when talking about computer games, it's commonly referred to as "isometric" 08:11:09 <peter1138> however, if you're actually drawing graphics for it, you need to know the different 08:11:26 <V453000> Supercheese: write there "render shit under 30deg and be done with it" :P 08:11:35 <Supercheese> haha 08:13:31 <peter1138> Yeah, top right of the last one I linked says 30° 08:14:03 <V453000> Camera setup First has been created a spline under 30° slope, setting the camera to Ortographic, and moving it along the spline until I got somewhat optimal result. The resulting coordinates of the camera relative the the center point of the 4x4 industry are: [41,9 | -41,9 | 34,211] Camera Target is at the center point, so [0 | 0 | 0]. 08:14:06 <V453000> :P 08:14:09 <V453000> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/yeti/wiki/Tech 08:14:31 <Alberth> problem solved :) 08:14:37 <Supercheese> Seems to agree with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia_dimetric_cube_3.jpg 08:14:41 <peter1138> don't forget to apply your tile edge mask 08:14:41 <peter1138> :p 08:14:51 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 08:14:58 <V453000> peter1138: ? :D it is quite important. 08:15:15 <peter1138> Yeah, those antialiased tile edges suck 08:15:24 <peter1138> (I wrote analised first time :S) 08:15:51 <V453000> then dont make fun of it :P everybody should do that tbh 08:15:58 <V453000> if they create ground tiles that is 08:16:53 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:d981:82a4:75fb:e663] has joined #openttd 08:19:52 <peter1138> I'm not making fun of it! 08:20:10 <peter1138> I'm sure last time I mentioned it was said that it was too much hassle to bother with. 08:20:34 <V453000> tis easy :) 08:22:09 <V453000> takes ~2 hours to set up 08:22:13 <V453000> and then everything renders automatically 08:22:20 <V453000> 2 hours max 08:24:07 <peter1138> I suppose applying it to zBase would be a lot of effort? 08:24:26 <V453000> well yes because zbase is rendered already being cut 08:24:37 <peter1138> There is source, isn't there? 08:24:53 <V453000> yes 08:24:59 <peter1138> So possible, just effort. 08:25:01 <V453000> you would have to rework all cameras 08:25:05 <V453000> sure, possible it is 08:25:06 <peter1138> :S 08:25:24 <peter1138> Mind you, TTD original still looks best to me :p 08:25:26 <V453000> + do some extra modeling on things that are models of single tiles 08:25:36 <V453000> TTD original is best, no question 08:25:45 <V453000> professional artwork, nuff said 08:26:04 <Rubidium> peter1138: which TTD original? DOS (non German), German DOS or Windows? 08:26:41 <peter1138> Er... is there much difference? 08:26:57 <Rubidium> not much, but there are differences 08:27:08 <Supercheese> oh? 08:27:12 <Rubidium> mostly in bugged sprites and fewer colours in Windows 08:27:21 <Rubidium> bugged sprites in one of the DOS ones 08:27:54 <peter1138> Oh yes, the palette difference. 08:27:58 <planetmaker> why would you need to rework all *cameras*, V453000 ? 08:28:19 <V453000> pm because they are animating among tiles and have a special cutting matte object 08:28:23 <V453000> I looked 08:28:25 <Rubidium> though... for OpenTTD we overwrite the bugged sprites with openttd.grf 08:28:38 <Rubidium> see media/extra/fix_graphics.* 08:28:55 <peter1138> Damn, these sprite offsets are terrible... 08:29:04 <V453000> e.g. industries are made the way that a camera has 16 animated positions, each being rendered separately, with an extra object that animates with the camera and hides things so that each tile renders separately 08:29:11 <V453000> which is completely opposite to what I am doing 08:29:59 <V453000> and I am not aware that 3D render could have precise non-antialiased full-alpha edges 08:30:06 <V453000> perhaps it can 08:31:18 <V453000> -> solution is to create a new camera which simply looks at the whole model and render it as a whole, cut it in postproduction 08:32:03 <planetmaker> yeah 08:32:24 <V453000> but lets face it, point of zbase was to make a point that 32bpp works 08:32:26 <V453000> not make it perfect 08:32:38 <liq3> zbase looks awful. :< 08:32:44 <Supercheese> sadly, yeah 08:32:50 <V453000> it does, but it made people even consider 32bpp/ez 08:33:04 <liq3> Yeh, 32bpp could look great if someone put the work in. 08:33:05 <planetmaker> it fulfilled and fulfills its purpose 08:33:23 <V453000> as for me, it rather made me scared that it is not possible to easily and feasibly to create renders which look nice in OpenTTD 08:33:33 <V453000> but all just a matter of trying :) 08:33:43 <liq3> YETI's industries look good. 08:33:58 <V453000> they will look even better later 08:33:58 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:34:22 <juzza1> you can get non-aa edges in blender, but it will still fail because the tile height is "wrong" in openttd (31 px instead of 32) 08:34:42 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 08:34:51 <V453000> okay :) 08:35:12 <V453000> doing all that in postproduction is sufficiently immune to similar hacks :P 08:35:42 <V453000> I am not even mentioning that animating camera means it is considerably more problematic to create something that animates on normal time scale 08:35:48 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 08:36:30 <Wolf01> hi hi 08:37:33 <peter1138> juzza1, not possible to "fix" that 08:37:53 <peter1138> juzza1, it's not especially "wrong" anyway 08:39:01 <V453000> the stretched side views make bigger problem anyway :P 08:39:04 <planetmaker> the vehicle size change along axes is more wrong ;) 08:39:10 <peter1138> Yeah :D 08:40:57 <Supercheese> apparently money also changes size along with the vehicles :P 08:41:15 <planetmaker> :P 08:41:44 <juzza1> peter1138: it's not 2:1, so in that sense it's wrong. But i was not suggesting it should be fixed, merely stated why straight non-aa rendering of tiles will likely fail 08:43:02 <Supercheese> Special relativity as applied to OTTD. γ = (1 / (1 - v²/c²)^0.5 ) * cos Ξ :P 08:43:18 <V453000> lol what the fuck 08:43:26 <Supercheese> that did not turn out formatted well 08:43:31 <V453000> 30deg be done with it is all I am saying :D 08:43:32 <Wolf01> it's edible? 08:43:53 <planetmaker> drinkable 08:44:17 <Wolf01> good, I like to swallow math formulas, but no every one is edible 08:44:25 <Wolf01> *not 08:44:54 <Supercheese> it is rather difficult to stick formulae into here :S 08:45:16 <planetmaker> the rendering didn't went too badly really, Supercheese 08:46:18 <planetmaker> (in other words: with plain text and only utf8 and one font size and height you can't do better) 08:46:28 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i5387A080.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 08:47:19 <Wolf01> Oh, I have a question: why is the backspace key in the OSK pointing the wrong direction? 08:47:37 <planetmaker> maybe your arabic ancestry? 08:48:03 <Wolf01> how does OTTD know? 08:48:08 <peter1138> Wrong direction? 08:49:02 <Wolf01> it points right, ehm, right is wrong... man, it's like define true = false 08:49:29 <peter1138> Not for me... 08:49:31 <planetmaker> an image says more than 1000 words? 08:49:34 <Wolf01> wait 08:49:47 <peter1138> Only if I pick an RTL language. 08:50:05 *** Cybert1nus is now known as Cybertinus 08:50:17 <Wolf01> maybe is my laptop 08:50:47 <planetmaker> hm, how did I get the osk? :D 08:50:51 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.26.55] has quit [] 08:51:19 <peter1138> Double click on a text input box, by default. 08:51:19 <Wolf01> double click on a text field 08:51:24 <planetmaker> ah. Well. It points left for me 08:51:30 <peter1138> But that is configurable, of course. 08:51:44 <Wolf01> ok, updating to the nightly is good now 08:52:02 <Wolf01> with 1.4.3 it was wrong 08:52:08 <keoz> plop 08:52:28 <peter1138> It's not wrong in 1.4.3. 08:52:43 <Wolf01> no, it's still wrong 08:52:52 <Wolf01> try in the savegame window 08:53:28 <Wolf01> [OK ][CANCEL][=> ] 08:53:41 <peter1138> ... 08:53:42 <planetmaker> not for me 08:53:49 <Wolf01> instead of [OK ][CANCEL][ <=] 08:53:56 <peter1138> Should be [Cancel][Ok ][<= ] 08:54:07 <peter1138> What language are you using? 08:54:12 <Wolf01> english 08:54:13 <V453000> got x1/8bpp support almost done (: 08:55:03 <planetmaker> it's the same for me with [ <= ] for trunk and 1.4.3 08:55:48 <peter1138> Wolf01, if you open a vehicle window, do you have the buttons on the left or right? 08:55:48 <Wolf01> all the in-game OSK are wrong, but in the title screen they are correct 08:56:59 <Wolf01> on the right 08:57:15 <Wolf01> all looks fine, except the backspace 08:57:26 <Wolf01> maybe it could be related to the bigGUI 08:57:36 <peter1138> Well no, your buttons are the wrong way around. 08:58:11 <peter1138> [Cancel][Ok ][=> ] 08:58:19 <peter1138> (not ok cancel =>) 08:58:25 <peter1138> So yes, BigGUI is broken. 08:59:01 <Wolf01> good 09:01:28 <peter1138> And it'll look silly with 2x UI I bet :D 09:03:12 <Wolf01> is it already in trunk? 09:03:50 <peter1138> It's been there ever since 4x zoom was added, as a define in a header file. 09:04:04 <peter1138> Albeit some windows aren't rendered correctly. 09:08:47 <Wolf01> do I need to enable it somewhere? 09:09:10 <Wolf01> because without bigGUI almost every widget is too small 09:18:55 *** sla_ro|laptop [~sla.ro@89.121.131.100] has joined #openttd 09:19:51 <peter1138> Silly Thom Yorke, I'm not paying money for MP3s :S 09:20:39 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #openttd 09:21:07 *** kais58___ [~kais58@cpc3-cwma7-2-0-cust221.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 09:21:29 <peter1138> Hmm, he's look unhealthy in this video... 09:21:49 <peter1138> +ing 09:22:48 *** kais58__ [~kais58@cpc3-cwma7-2-0-cust221.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:25:57 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:27:11 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@89.121.131.100] has joined #openttd 09:30:42 <peter1138> Hmm, BigGUI doesn't have a shadow on the close X 09:31:51 *** sla_ro|laptop [~sla.ro@89.121.131.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:32:13 *** kais58___ is now known as kais58|AFK 09:35:47 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 09:40:34 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6B624.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 09:44:02 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 09:45:25 <andythenorth> hmm 09:46:08 <Wolf01> o/ 09:46:09 <andythenorth> what are the problems with station-at-industry-tiles? 09:46:16 <andythenorth> e.g. oil rig etc 09:46:33 <peter1138> interesting cargo routing ;p 09:46:48 <andythenorth> theyâre hokey? 09:46:52 <Wolf01> except fishing grounds accepting helicopters without a landing pad? 09:51:34 <andythenorth> do they have a catchment? 09:51:46 <andythenorth> or is it only the industry 09:53:54 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26926 trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp (2014-09-27 09:53:48 UTC) 09:53:55 <DorpsGek> -Change: limit flat world height to the maximum configured map height 09:54:42 <andythenorth> wondering if I can make a 1 tile docks industry 09:54:50 <andythenorth> which is just a station 10:02:02 *** MJP [~mjp@hq.z77.fr] has joined #openttd 10:02:21 <peter1138> distcc[22512] (dcc_zeroconf_add_hosts) CRITICAL! failed to parse host file. 10:02:26 <peter1138> this is annoying :( 10:03:39 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 10:05:20 <peter1138> maybe i should just hardcode it :S 10:08:23 *** Pikkaphone [~yaaic@203-206-161-219.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 10:08:46 <peter1138> PIKKA 10:09:10 <Pikkaphone> YES? 10:09:13 <peter1138> that's all 10:09:21 <Pikkaphone> Oh okay 10:09:38 <peter1138> hmm, ship drawing odd in ship list... 10:13:00 <peter1138> Oh, ah, it's space for the order list, which was blank because I had no orders, hah. 10:13:18 <Pikkaphone> splendid 10:14:51 <andythenorth> Pikkaphone phone home 10:15:15 <andythenorth> hmm 10:15:23 <andythenorth> logging tram or logging truc 10:15:25 <andythenorth> truck * 10:15:34 <Pikkaphone> who even has a home phone these days? 10:15:45 <Pikkaphone> logging dukw 10:15:58 <Pikkaphone> logging helicopter 10:16:47 <Pikkaphone> logging hovercraft 10:17:30 <andythenorth> logging lcac-barf 10:17:58 <Pikkaphone> trucks rather than trams I thonk 10:19:05 <Pikkaphone> or horse drawn zellepin 10:19:16 <andythenorth> trucks for brit 10:19:27 <andythenorth> horse drawn flying trams for america, australias 10:21:50 <peter1138> I have a home phone! 10:22:13 <Pikkaphone> you would 10:23:24 <peter1138> Mainly because ADSL comes via the phone line, so... 10:27:25 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-5f7465b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:27:46 <frosch123> hola 10:31:36 <Pikkaphone> aloh 10:32:50 <andythenorth> logging tram 10:32:51 <andythenorth> http://www.gearedsteam.com/climax/images/olympia_lbr_co.jpg 10:33:01 <andythenorth> needs roadtypes 10:33:05 <andythenorth> (look at the wheels) 10:33:17 <Pikkaphone> si 10:35:27 <planetmaker> hola 10:35:28 <Pikkaphone> better get on with it, then :D 10:36:03 <andythenorth> bloody roadtypes 10:36:19 <andythenorth> is there room to just have a tile-is-powered bit instead :P 10:36:32 <andythenorth> tram, electric tram, road, electrified road 10:36:33 <andythenorth> done 10:36:58 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:37:02 <Pikkaphone> what about dirt roads and cobbles and all that nonsense 10:37:14 <Pikkaphone> and futuristic super highways 10:37:30 <Pikkaphone> these are important feature requests 10:38:25 <andythenorth> yes 10:38:31 <andythenorth> they will certainly enhance gameplay 10:38:33 <andythenorth> one day 10:39:00 <Pikkaphone> and industrial Birmingham canals 10:39:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6B624.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:39:23 <Pikkaphone> and medieval trackways 10:40:00 <Pikkaphone> and ancient druidic leylines 10:40:17 <Pikkaphone> for the use of ancient druidic leylands 10:41:16 <andythenorth> also 10:41:38 <andythenorth> and we could have roads with different speeds 10:41:44 <andythenorth> and restrictions on maximum axle weight 10:41:54 <andythenorth> and surfaces that are slippery when wet 10:42:19 <Pikkaphone> yes 10:42:33 <andythenorth> we could have roadtype labels 10:42:41 <andythenorth> and a roadtype labels standardisation committee 10:43:01 <andythenorth> and we could have a vetting committee for the labels standardisation committee 10:43:12 <Pikkaphone> what about different road markings? 10:43:18 <andythenorth> also 10:43:53 <andythenorth> also road planning roads 10:44:05 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26927 /trunk/src (smallmap_gui.cpp table/heightmap_colours.h) (2014-09-27 10:43:59 UTC) 10:44:06 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: split the heightmap colour tables into their own file in the table folder 10:44:06 <andythenorth> and roads that you get a town-growth bonus for 10:44:16 <andythenorth> so that your interesting town-growth script can do growth 10:44:34 <Pikkaphone> roads with no one way 10:44:41 <Pikkaphone> or only one way 10:44:43 <andythenorth> and roads with no way 10:44:48 <andythenorth> closed roads 10:44:50 <Pikkaphone> yes 10:44:53 <peter1138> highways! 10:44:53 <andythenorth> with grass growing over them 10:44:58 <andythenorth> roads that are plowed in winter 10:45:01 <andythenorth> and roads that are not 10:45:37 <Pikkaphone> could have different maintenance costs 10:46:05 <Pikkaphone> good game play potential there 10:46:27 <andythenorth> roads with more or fewer nails in 10:46:32 <andythenorth> affects breakdowns 10:46:54 <Pikkaphone> roads which b doubles are allowed to use 10:47:06 <andythenorth> roads which b doubles may not use 10:47:14 *** moffi [~moffi@dsdf-4d0a49d2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:47:17 <andythenorth> also roads that you have to pay a congestion charge to use 10:47:29 <andythenorth> and roads where trucks are allowed, but only in certain hours 10:47:29 <Pikkaphone> roads which b doubles aren't allowed to use but do anyway 10:47:36 <andythenorth> that too 10:47:44 <andythenorth> weâd need a speed camera option 10:47:51 <Pikkaphone> so is decided 10:47:52 <andythenorth> so you could make money from your competitors 10:48:22 <andythenorth> yes is decided 10:48:30 <andythenorth> so now all is needed is spec 10:48:31 <ccfreak2k> So what's new in openttd fellas 10:48:31 <andythenorth> and coder 10:48:35 <Pikkaphone> we need at least 1024 road types 10:48:38 <andythenorth> at least 10:48:43 <andythenorth> and it must anticipate all future cases 10:48:53 <andythenorth> and be 100% extensible with no BAD FEATURES 10:49:06 <andythenorth> because BAD FEATURES (like dual-headed engines, or livery over-rides) 10:49:10 <andythenorth> are VERY VERY BAD 10:49:19 <andythenorth> instead of just something that is fun to gripe about 10:49:29 <Pikkaphone> yes 10:49:36 <andythenorth> also it must be aware of whatever might change in the map in future 10:49:42 <andythenorth> and be fully accessible to AI and GS 10:49:54 <andythenorth> it must also be backwards compatible with TTDP 10:50:13 <andythenorth> oh wait, too far? 10:50:18 <andythenorth> that last one sounds silly 10:51:31 <Pikkaphone> that's how you know you're on to something 10:51:41 *** frosch [~frosch@frnk-4d01fd6c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:52:15 *** __ln__ [~lauri@dyn-xdsl-83-150-116-30.nebulazone.fi] has joined #openttd 10:52:24 <andythenorth> Pikkaphone: so the first thing to do is make a spec 10:52:32 <andythenorth> then get it reviewed by all the relevant people 10:52:38 <Pikkaphone> is it? 10:52:43 <andythenorth> I believe so 10:52:52 <andythenorth> Iâve heard thatâs how software is made correctly 10:52:59 <andythenorth> get a spec 10:53:05 <andythenorth> show it to all the stakeholders 10:53:10 <andythenorth> take all their input 10:53:15 <andythenorth> modify the spec until all needs are met 10:53:31 <andythenorth> afaik, anything else isnât correct 10:53:57 <andythenorth> ha 10:54:02 <andythenorth> there is so much wrong with this https://www.flickr.com/photos/126425458@N06/14941297932/ 10:54:51 <Pikkaphone> isn't it 10:55:02 <andythenorth> definitely more realistic 10:55:04 <andythenorth> super realistic 10:55:12 <andythenorth> https://www.flickr.com/photos/126425458@N06/14755117297/ 10:55:18 <andythenorth> he didnât even get the stickers straight :( 10:55:31 <andythenorth> lego + realism :P 10:55:37 <andythenorth> also 10:55:50 <andythenorth> quak 10:56:32 <Rubidium> andythenorth: that first one is definitely wrong... a steam train running on electricity stored in coal?!? 10:56:45 <andythenorth> yes 10:56:47 <andythenorth> not realistic 10:56:54 <andythenorth> and his flanges are way too deep also 10:57:03 <andythenorth> and real trains donât use magnet couplers 10:57:06 <andythenorth> and that coal is plastic 10:57:11 <Pikkaphone> eh, I've seen stickers on real vehicles less straight than that. 10:57:13 <andythenorth> proper train fans use real coal 10:57:32 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-5f7465b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:59:12 <peter1138> meh, i need multiple docks :S 10:59:17 <andythenorth> you do 10:59:25 <Pikkaphone> yes 10:59:32 * andythenorth considers bouy docks 10:59:53 <Pikkaphone> and ships that don't drive through each other 11:00:12 <Pikkaphone> not much point in multiple docks otherwise... 11:00:16 *** Jiinxs [~Jiinxs@ti0038a400-0515.bb.online.no] has quit [] 11:00:33 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 11:00:53 *** andythen_ [~andytheno@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 11:01:14 <Pikkaphone> you broke it 11:01:46 <andythen_> Child has taken mac away from me 11:02:00 <Pikkaphone> typical 11:02:24 <andythen_> He's playing ottd 11:02:47 <Alberth> play-testing your newgrfs :) 11:02:49 <Pikkaphone> how unusual 11:02:53 <andythen_> He's just learnt about vehicles having red or black profit numbers 11:03:53 <andythen_> He wants vehicle ferries 11:05:33 *** andythe__ [~andytheno@213.205.240.141] has joined #openttd 11:05:38 <Pikkaphone> drive the truck onto the boat vehicle ferries? 11:05:46 <andythe__> Yes 11:05:48 <Alberth> but moving vehicles gives big red numbers 11:06:09 <Pikkaphone> better make it happen, then 11:06:34 <andythe__> Maybe tommorow 11:07:36 <peter1138> hmm, do buoys have an infrastructure cost? 11:07:57 <peter1138> Pikkaphone, there are other reasons for multiple docks 11:08:18 <peter1138> like in this case, a narrow bit of land with a dock either side, instead of going the long way around 11:08:25 <andythe__> Yes 11:08:32 <andythe__> Common case 11:09:08 <peter1138> Might just be easier to make a sea-canal (cheaper than making a normal canal :S) 11:09:25 <andythe__> Yeah 11:10:10 <Pikkaphone> they're not as good reasons :) 11:11:58 *** andythen_ [~andytheno@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:12:51 <Pikkaphone> hum 11:13:05 <Pikkaphone> looks like some rain hereabouts 11:16:48 <andythe__> Beebul 11:16:57 <Pikkaphone> si 11:18:01 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26928 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-27 11:17:54 UTC) 11:18:02 <DorpsGek> -Change: scale the heightmap colours over the whole range of heights (based on patch by ic111) 11:29:03 *** Pikkaphone [~yaaic@203-206-161-219.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:32:13 *** Supercheese is now known as Guest1040 11:32:16 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@76.178.136.186] has joined #openttd 11:33:32 *** theholyduck [~theholydu@172.245.30.36] has joined #openttd 11:35:55 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6B624.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 11:37:24 *** Guest1040 [~Superchee@76.178.136.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:43:58 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [] 11:53:25 *** andythe__ [~andytheno@213.205.240.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57:27 *** mist_ [~mist@c-74fa70d5.034-4-67626721.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 11:59:16 *** mist [~mist@c-74fa70d5.034-4-67626721.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:00:34 *** Wolf03 [~wolf01@host116-238-dynamic.248-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 12:00:34 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest1042 12:00:35 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01 12:04:25 <fjb> Moin 12:04:33 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:07:53 *** Guest1042 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:09:44 <frosch> quak 12:10:14 <Wolf01> woof 12:20:44 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 12:21:29 *** TorCoolguy [~ray@72.31.21.45] has joined #openttd 12:21:43 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:23:19 *** qwebirc22871 [~oftc-webi@CPE-120-147-28-158.lflg3.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 12:25:36 <qwebirc22871> IRC ... it's been a while. anyone still in here? 12:26:08 *** qwebirc22871 [~oftc-webi@CPE-120-147-28-158.lflg3.lon.bigpond.net.au] has left #openttd [] 12:27:07 <LordAro> aw 12:27:22 <LordAro> helps if you wait more than 30 seconds... 12:28:26 <^Spike^> no it doesn't.... 12:28:33 <^Spike^> you join a channel and need answer within 1 second 12:28:42 <^Spike^> if no-one responds leave! :) 12:28:46 <^Spike^> that's how help channels work :D 12:30:04 <LordAro> :p 12:39:01 <fjb> Reduces the work for the support team. 12:45:18 *** Smedles [~quassel@58.160.136.199] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47:04 *** Smedles [~quassel@58.160.136.199] has joined #openttd 12:49:11 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:50:16 *** liq3 [~liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.vic.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 12:59:18 <^Spike^> :) 12:59:51 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 13:00:04 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 13:05:17 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 13:28:33 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:36:20 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 13:38:36 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-46-133.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 13:49:48 <MTsPony> lulz 13:52:57 <argoneus> moshi moshi 13:55:38 <Rubidium> ohayou gozaimasu 13:57:41 <argoneus> Rubidium: are you following any chinese cartoons this season? 13:57:58 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:02:02 *** Haube [~michi@ip25048c11.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #openttd 14:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause> some decades ago there was a commercial, where a kid hit random numbers on the phone, and then someone in japan answered the phone, and the fee counter exploded. or something 14:07:30 *** InvokeStatic_ [~Invoke@c-24-11-157-247.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 14:07:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the internet seems to think it was a commercial for some lottery. "if you need money..." 14:07:56 <Rubidium> argoneus: no 14:08:12 *** InvokeStatic [~Invoke@c-24-11-157-247.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Bunchies are a right not a privilege] 14:08:51 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:38:09 *** Jomann [~abchirk@p57A0849B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 14:43:07 *** Haube [~michi@ip25048c11.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:24 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 14:49:43 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26929 trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp (2014-09-27 14:49:37 UTC) 14:49:44 <DorpsGek> -Change: accounts for maximum height when filling the height legend of the smallmap 14:50:14 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@89.121.131.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:50:41 <peter1138> Might just be easier to make a sea-canal (cheaper than making a normal canal :S) 14:50:44 <peter1138> err 14:50:55 <peter1138> up-arrow enter in wrong window D: 14:51:15 <XeryusTC> hah, openttd is used by my information security teacher as a bad example of using checksums 14:51:40 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26930 trunk/src/table/heightmap_colours.h (2014-09-27 14:51:34 UTC) 14:51:41 <DorpsGek> -Add: extra shadings to he heightmap colour tables (Chillcore) 14:52:05 <Rubidium> XeryusTC: please tell us how it's bad... I'm interested ;) 14:53:05 <peter1138> OMG, MD5, so many collisions! 14:53:34 <XeryusTC> the exercise is on why providing checksums next to downloads is bad 14:53:52 <Rubidium> oh, those checksums 14:54:21 <peter1138> "next to"? 14:54:32 <Rubidium> peter1138: the checksums on the download page of openttd 14:54:35 <XeryusTC> http://www.openttd.org/en/download-testing 14:54:42 <XeryusTC> checksums on those pages 14:54:55 <XeryusTC> just found it funny how he used openttd as as example, it is all over the web 14:54:57 <peter1138> Should they be hidden? :p 14:54:58 <Rubidium> why is it bad that the checksums are there? 14:55:15 <peter1138> It's not like that's where the downloads actually come from. 14:55:30 <peter1138> Although the mirror redirect is on the same platform, so... 14:55:39 <Prof_Frink> Because people shouldn't know if their downloads got corrupted. 14:55:49 <XeryusTC> it is probably because if Trudy is able to modify your download then she is also probably able to modify the checksum on the page 14:56:04 <Rubidium> XeryusTC: what other solution is there? 14:56:41 <Rubidium> because if Trudy is able to modify the page, then Trudy is probably also able to mess with the source repository and the build farm 14:57:15 <XeryusTC> I dunno, it is an exercise, i still have to come up with a solution 14:57:20 <Rubidium> likewise the MTA 14:57:36 <Alberth> obviously, removing the checksums is much safer :p 14:57:38 <XeryusTC> Trudy can also intercept the page after it has been transmitted and then modify it 14:57:47 <Prof_Frink> I never saw MD5s as a security thing, just a "Did this download right?" thing. 14:58:13 <Pikka> it is 14:58:27 <XeryusTC> indeed 14:58:29 <Rubidium> XeryusTC: by the same token, Trudy can intercept all traffic and provide a bogus SSL certificate for ANY communication we do 14:58:29 <Prof_Frink> (More important with things like OS images or firmwares than openttd.) 14:58:31 <Pikka> XeryusTC, so the challenge is to come up with a way to detect an omnipotent intruder? 14:58:37 <Rubidium> including mails to mailing lists or whatever 14:58:47 <XeryusTC> Pikka: probably :( 15:00:18 <XeryusTC> Rubidium: very true, but he apparently thinks that this method is meant for security, not to check if your download got corrupted 15:00:46 <Prof_Frink> Why would he think that, then claim that it isn't? 15:01:41 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 15:02:02 <Prof_Frink> You shouldn't use MD5sums because they're not suitable for building bridges. 15:02:11 <Rubidium> our website only claims that if the checksums don't match, it's definitely corrupted or not from the website. It doesn't state that if the checksum matches it definitely came from us 15:02:48 <Rubidium> that's an assumption your teacher made, and making an assumption in information security is IMO a fatal mistake 15:03:27 <Pikka> assumptions make an ass out of u and mption. 15:03:33 <Prof_Frink> s. 15:05:09 <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: Or the script that generates the MD5s for that page fell over. 15:05:58 <XeryusTC> Rubidium: that is true, but it is still the case that a malicious party can foil this method 15:06:27 <Rubidium> XeryusTC: true, just take over the domain... but then they can send mails to mailings lists with signatures as well 15:06:50 <^Spike^> XeryusTC in the end depending on the network setup even someone not even modyfing the ottd page can still make the user show false info even if the checksums are on a different page/server on the other side of the world 15:06:54 <^Spike^> if it becomes a mitm 15:07:04 <^Spike^> so the point the teacher makes seems rather pointless 15:07:19 <^Spike^> cause i can not modify ottd pages and still modify checksums and provide a false file 15:08:57 *** qwebirc32056 [~oftc-webi@109.113.4.70] has joined #openttd 15:09:04 <XeryusTC> the point he is trying to make is rather pointless indeed 15:09:05 *** qwebirc32056 [~oftc-webi@109.113.4.70] has quit [] 15:09:08 <Rubidium> XeryusTC: obviously the only solution is for the downloader to physically come to the person that did the release and built the binary to get the checksums from just after the build as they were written down on a piece of paper. This under the watchful eye of a judge/notary, who then signs everything and commits it to public record. 15:09:18 <^Spike^> ^^^ 15:09:21 <^Spike^> got it before me :) 15:09:27 <peter1138> added test: our mirrors also contain checksums 15:09:45 <peter1138> so (somehow) check each mirror agrees 15:10:01 <peter1138> then realise that mirror upload is automated :p 15:10:04 <^Spike^> peter1138 as said that wouldn't matter if it is a mitm for ex depends on which side they are :) 15:10:33 <peter1138> ok let's put it on ssl and assume the user knows how to check for a valid certificate 15:10:36 <^Spike^> if they are on client side then they won't notice if they are just @ one server then yeah mirror checks work :) 15:10:49 <^Spike^> *cough*diginotar*cough* 15:10:49 <Rubidium> in other words, you need to get the checksum in some way that does not contain any black box-y methods of transport, i.e. where you cannot oversee each and every step 15:11:02 <Rubidium> so sending things via snail mail is out as well 15:11:07 <^Spike^> ssl certs are just trust based 15:11:17 <XeryusTC> Rubidium: the safest method is probably to print the code, put it in an envelope and seal it with wax, mail it to the other party (or hand it in person) and have the other party type it into their computer and compile it 15:11:17 <^Spike^> we trust several companies to provide a safe chain 15:11:23 <^Spike^> doesn't mean they also actually do.. :) 15:11:42 <^Spike^> Xaroth you forget: Having the same compile setup :) 15:11:46 <^Spike^> else checksums do not match :D 15:11:49 <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: I think we've just invented the key-exchange problem. 15:11:50 <peter1138> of course not, the ca business is built on a scam 15:11:51 <Rubidium> XeryusTC: the envelope can be intercepted, as such it is not safe 15:11:53 <michi_cc> PGP signatures with a proper web of trust. Of course, if the attacked has access to the server the private keys isn't exactly private anymore either. 15:12:21 <peter1138> so manually sign each an every release. cool. 15:12:35 <XeryusTC> Rubidium: that is where the seal comes in, if it is broken you can definitely say that it has been tampered with 15:12:53 <Rubidium> XeryusTC: but I can just put it in a new enveloppe and reseal it 15:13:13 <Prof_Frink> But that won't have the openttd seal on it. 15:13:23 <^Spike^> can be forged :) 15:13:30 <Rubidium> after all, I intercepted a set of enveloppes, paper, wax and a replacement seal that some office supplier sent to the person doing the printing 15:13:58 <peter1138> safest best, stop distributing anything 15:14:10 <^Spike^> stop using the interwebz... :) 15:15:28 <Rubidium> XeryusTC: but I like to hear your professor's solution, just to poke holes into it ;) 15:15:49 <^Spike^> XeryusTC: and there you have your answer... Teacher your point does not work in any way. I have discussed it with the guys of OpenTTD and there are so many ways you can still forge it no matter what :) 15:15:58 <Prof_Frink> And make sure you include quotes from this conversation in your report. 15:16:04 <^Spike^> :) 15:16:12 <XeryusTC> oh, I will quote this ;) 15:16:41 <^Spike^> heheh 15:17:10 <XeryusTC> Rubidium: he can probably come up with a good solution, although it might indeed involve swapping papers in person 15:17:37 <Rubidium> but how do you know that the person you're swapping with is the real author? 15:17:52 <Rubidium> okay, *you* might know some of them... but your teacher probably not 15:17:55 <Prof_Frink> If you're gonna meet in person, couln't he just give you a disk with the program on it, rather than download the program and meet up for the checksum? 15:20:47 <XeryusTC> Prof_Frink: but how would you then check if your download isn't corrupted? 15:20:48 <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: Doesn't matter even if you know them personally. "We have your family, do what we say and nobody gets harmed..." 15:21:07 <Prof_Frink> It can't be corrupted, because I haven't downloaded anything. 15:24:31 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.26.55] has joined #openttd 15:35:58 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FFB9B41.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:38:17 *** moffi [~moffi@dsdf-4d0a49d2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:39:17 <Rubidium> Prof_Frink: so... there is NO way to completely ensure there not being a MITM-attack 15:45:23 <Prof_Frink> Sure there is. Don't have a middle to put a man in. 15:46:02 <Prof_Frink> Only use code that you've written yourself, on an OS you've written yourself, with a compiler... you get the idea. 15:46:19 <^Spike^> with computer parts you build yourself? :) 15:46:19 <Rubidium> Prof_Frink: but that doesn't need distributing 15:46:29 <Rubidium> and as such no need to download or have checksums 15:46:57 <Rubidium> thus it's a moot solution for this conundrum 15:47:09 <Prof_Frink> Wait, what was the question? 15:47:53 <Rubidium> essentially to safely distribute files 15:48:13 <Prof_Frink> Safely distribute or safely receive? 15:48:25 <Rubidium> basically both? 15:48:49 <Alberth> sounds like obtaining a unique identity for a MP session 15:53:23 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:53:34 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 16:02:14 <XeryusTC> Prof_Frink: apparently distributing files with a checksum next to them on the download page is flawed 16:03:31 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:05:39 <peter1138> Should be on a different page? :p 16:06:37 <Rubidium> XeryusTC: but the files are downloaded from a different country than those checksums are in ;) 16:11:20 *** Hazzard [~quassel@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 16:14:11 <peter1138> anyway 16:14:23 <peter1138> why would you trust us with your game 16:16:36 *** MTsPony [~MTsPony@008-086-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [] 16:17:07 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 16:17:21 *** MTsPony [~MTsPony@008-086-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #openttd 16:17:46 <Rubidium> what if I were Trudy? 16:19:43 <Prof_Frink> Trudibium? 16:25:45 *** smith1232 [~a@93-138-4-203.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #openttd 16:26:55 <Rubidium> must say TUe's Information security technology website is doing great... 16:27:33 <Rubidium> first link: 404, second link: http://(Computer 16:27:58 <Rubidium> fourth link: 404 16:28:43 <Alberth> :) 16:29:35 <Alberth> it's very safe that way :p 16:33:37 *** Jiinxs [~Jiinxs@ti0038a400-0515.bb.online.no] has joined #openttd 16:35:07 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 16:39:11 <andythenorth> o/ 16:40:03 <Alberth> \o 16:40:23 <andythenorth> Pikka: so all new road vehicles arrive in same year? o_O 16:43:00 <Pikka> "all"? 16:43:29 <Pikka> if they're ostensibly the same model, I don't see why not. except of course you have the fun random element. 16:45:36 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:55:28 *** moffi [~moffi@dsdf-4d0a49d2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:55:43 <andythenorth> the only thing against it is the faff of auto-replace 16:55:50 <andythenorth> but then random will take care of that 16:57:37 <peter1138> Autoreplace isn't a faff. Manually replacing is... 16:59:46 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220149.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:53 <andythenorth> well 17:01:54 <andythenorth> yes 17:03:38 <Eddi|zuHause> manual replace is one of the biggest flaws of train fever 17:04:03 <V453000> quite a bad feature 17:04:38 <Alberth> original TTD had that too 17:04:45 <V453000> :P 17:04:50 <MTsPony> Having no multiplayer is :p 17:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but you could only have 80 vehicles in total 17:05:19 <MTsPony> Openttd > Fever 17:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: why would you need multiplayer in a single player game? 17:05:47 <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: so simcity5>simcity4? 17:05:58 <MTsPony> Ehm. What defines a Multiplayer game? By having multiplayer option ofcourse :p 17:07:11 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 17:07:14 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 17:07:38 *** moffi [~moffi@dsdf-4d0a49d2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i played multiplayer in openttd like 3 times over the past 8 years 17:08:02 <MTsPony> Everyone has their own preference. 17:10:47 <andythenorth> meh realisms 17:10:54 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 17:11:11 <andythenorth> steam road vehicles hauling stupid amounts IRL 17:11:19 <andythenorth> doesnât fit vehicle progression 17:12:23 <Alberth> :) 17:12:36 <Alberth> steam RVs were quite powerful 17:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: anyway, with a few right improvements, train fever easily surpasses openttd 17:13:10 <V453000> Train Fever has no nuts 17:13:11 <V453000> no way 17:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: make them have low speed or ridiculous running costs or something 17:13:35 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: whatâs better in TF, other than visuals? 17:13:37 <V453000> low speed is boaring 17:13:40 <andythenorth> yeah 17:13:44 <andythenorth> so fakery 17:13:54 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: they used to run quite fast afaik 17:13:55 <MTsPony> Why eddi? Because its fancy 3D? 17:14:02 <andythenorth> itâs just odd finding images with 10 trailers 17:14:10 <andythenorth> behind one engine 17:14:19 *** smith1232 [~a@93-138-4-203.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:14:24 *** smith1232 [~a@93-136-125-215.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #openttd 17:15:01 <andythenorth> anyway, Road Hog is drifting quite away from reality :P 17:15:03 <MTsPony> Dunno dude, at first glance I'd say behind the scenes Openttd has way more matured, and comparing the two graphically, thats purely subjective 17:15:17 <Alberth> the true problem was that you'd have to start them up several hours before you could leave 17:15:38 <andythenorth> operating cost o_O 17:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: of course a program with as many development hours (or decades) behind it as openttd is "more mature" 17:16:00 <MTsPony> So explain why you think TF surpasses openttd? 17:16:15 <andythenorth> if I was starting a game studio, I would probably have attempted TF 17:16:25 <andythenorth> but maybe with less realisms 17:16:44 <Alberth> while transport tycoon 2013 was just released? 17:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: less legacy crap to carry around. and fancy 3D. 17:17:54 <MTsPony> Thus subjective :p 17:18:08 <MTsPony> I prefer the old skool openttd look, probably because of nostalgia :0 17:18:24 <Alberth> the big audience doesn't 17:18:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i 17:18:38 <Eddi|zuHause> 'm sure you can make the models all block-y 17:18:42 <MTsPony> the big audience is bored with train fever a few weeks after purchase. 17:19:20 <MTsPony> usually depth and possibilities >> some fancy looking graphics, 17:19:34 <andythenorth> I think train fever will succeed 17:19:39 <andythenorth> smells of success 17:19:48 <andythenorth> Euro Truck Simulator has gone on and on 17:19:52 <Alberth> they can probably prolong interest if they add new features and improve things 17:19:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that's where the development comes in. the depth and possibilities have to be added now 17:20:05 <MTsPony> Dont think so, they'll probably stop development when they squeezed out most of the money : 17:20:06 <MTsPony> :p 17:20:18 <andythenorth> I think thereâs a huge under-served appetite for these sims 17:20:32 <andythenorth> so itâs not Call of Duty or Halo, but still 17:20:47 <Eddi|zuHause> if you were really in it for the money, you'd not attempt such a niche simulation area 17:21:04 <andythenorth> thereâs money and thereâs money 17:21:24 <andythenorth> SCS seem to be doing OK http://www.scssoft.com 17:21:57 <glx> ets2 is not bad 17:22:08 <andythenorth> itâs not exactly EA, but if you can keep cash burn rate at â¬75k per month⊠17:22:11 <Alberth> andythenorth: no news for a year? :) 17:22:20 <andythenorth> they tweet stuff 17:22:43 <andythenorth> but yeah, youâre not going to spend a lot on community media stuff if youâre running a lean operation 17:22:44 <glx> and regular ets2 updates 17:22:50 <andythenorth> theyâre putting the money into sound effects 17:22:56 <andythenorth> and better overtaking :P 17:23:06 <andythenorth> and hopefully theyâll eventually ship the mac port :P 17:23:12 <glx> videos for sound effects are fun to watch 17:23:26 <andythenorth> yeah 17:23:35 <andythenorth> they crashed trucks and cars 17:23:51 <glx> oh didn't see this one 17:24:07 <glx> only the truck full of mics 17:25:13 <andythenorth> somewhere on their YT probably 17:29:57 <glx> http://blog.scssoft.com/2014/09/the-first-news-about-design.html <-- they are crazy 17:30:04 <argoneus> ets2 is fun 17:30:07 <argoneus> especially when you play multiplayer 17:31:20 <argoneus> http://puu.sh/aupK2/3dd2fd14e2.jpg 17:33:45 <andythenorth> itâs â¬20 with a â¬10 expansion pack 17:33:58 <argoneus> jokes on you, I got it for 4 euros 17:34:24 <andythenorth> for ETS 2? 17:34:28 <andythenorth> some bundle? 17:34:30 <argoneus> no 17:34:34 <argoneus> but there are sites that resell steam keys 17:34:36 <argoneus> for cheap 17:34:45 <glx> there's often sales too 17:35:22 <andythenorth> trying to figure out how many staff they have 17:35:41 <argoneus> also thanks openttd 17:35:43 <andythenorth> theyâve built or licensed game engines for third parties, so they probably have residuals from that 17:35:47 <argoneus> you renewed my interest in coding and c++ 17:35:48 <Pikka> andythenorth, we should make the best transport game 17:35:51 <Pikka> make millions 17:36:00 <andythenorth> more like thousands 17:36:01 <Pikka> and all the roadtypes you can eat 17:36:04 <andythenorth> all of them 17:36:08 <andythenorth> Iâll code it in python 17:36:11 <andythenorth> it will be slow 17:36:27 <argoneus> imagine 17:36:32 <argoneus> if you could make the same roads like in simcity 4 17:36:45 <andythenorth> I reckon SCS would have to sell 5k units per month full price on ETS 2 to run a viable business 17:36:55 <andythenorth> but their team might be bigger that my guess 17:37:09 <andythenorth> but they also have 8 other games on sale 17:37:10 <argoneus> andythenorth: but ets2 is really popular 17:37:17 <andythenorth> define âreally popular' 17:37:21 <andythenorth> itâs not angry birds 17:37:23 <argoneus> it had a spike like dayz 17:37:29 <argoneus> when arma 2 was top seller for months 17:37:45 <argoneus> not that high but it had a major spike 17:37:48 <argoneus> and it's a well known game 17:38:16 <Eddi|zuHause> <argoneus> but there are sites that resell steam keys <-- i imagine that the difference is what steam would otherwise keep for themselves, and the programmers get the same money nevertheless 17:38:17 <Pikka> dayz is still a top seller on steam. which is weird, because afaia everyone played the mod and decided it was dreadful about 18 months ago. 17:39:23 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i never played any of those 17:41:45 <andythenorth> farming simulator seems to be massive too 17:42:23 <peter1138> my sprites are massive 17:43:32 <Sacro> peter1138: you disturb me very sprites 17:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder if i should play goat simulator :p 17:43:54 <argoneus> no it's a funny meme ex dee game 17:44:03 * peter1138 limits Sacro's sprites 17:44:06 <argoneus> which is "fun" for 10 minutes before you realize all you can do with it is make money if you are a famous youtuber 17:44:12 <argoneus> that's literally it 17:44:29 <V453000> goat simulator was awesome for a couple of minutes :) 17:44:49 <argoneus> even popcorn at cinemas is more cost efficient than goat simulator 17:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never ever paid for popcorn at cinemas 17:45:16 <argoneus> V453000: I was wondering, are you a coder / developer as well? 17:45:23 <argoneus> I doubt you can make robust newgrfs with just 3d art skills 17:45:26 <V453000> only newGRFs 17:45:27 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26931 trunk/src/lang/russian.txt (2014-09-27 17:45:18 UTC) 17:45:28 <V453000> I hate coding 17:45:28 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:29 <DorpsGek> russian - 3 changes by Lone_Wolf 17:45:40 <V453000> well I do "code" newGRFs in NML 17:45:41 <argoneus> hmm 17:45:45 <V453000> which is not really coding 17:45:51 <Eddi|zuHause> well i "hate" coding as well 17:45:55 <V453000> just filling in values with some syntax 17:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> which is why i write code generators :p 17:46:07 <argoneus> filling in values with syntax is coding :D 17:46:17 <argoneus> figuring out what values to fill is programming 17:46:18 <argoneus> :P 17:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> filling in values with syntax is a great job for a code generator 17:47:09 <argoneus> like this? http://pointmetotheplane.boardingarea.com/2014/08/08/oops-united-mad-libs-edition-fill-blank-apology-letter-customer-name-2/ 17:47:19 <V453000> well then :D coding I do, hate it I do 17:47:50 <argoneus> (take everything I say with a grain of salt, 64% of the time I have no idea what I'm talking about) 17:47:58 <peter1138> http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/double6.png 17:48:06 <peter1138> That window on the right isn't working right :S 17:48:17 <V453000> MY EYES DIE 17:48:39 <argoneus> peter1138: what is wrong with the company list guy 17:48:43 <argoneus> he looks angry as fuck 17:48:53 <peter1138> V453000, it's easier to see what's wrong at 4X :) 17:49:09 <V453000> yeah, that is the only thing I use x4 for 17:49:21 <V453000> checking if offsets are fine with nuts :D 17:49:23 <V453000> well now for yeti 17:49:28 <peter1138> If i can make it scale properly at 4x, it'll be good at 2x too, in theory. 17:49:35 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: that's a moustache, not a frowny face :p 17:49:38 <peter1138> argoneus, well, he's had half his face cropped off... 17:51:30 <argoneus> looks like this to me 17:51:38 <argoneus> http://puu.sh/bQ4Zm/363d989043.png 17:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "german military is so underfunded that it couldn't fulfill nato obligations" 17:52:22 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: cross-eyed with bad haircut? 17:52:38 <argoneus> he looks cross eyed 17:52:43 <argoneus> and can't see haircut because tophat 17:53:40 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: the joy of pixel art. things that look really stupid upclose look amazing a bit further away 17:53:47 <andythenorth> peter1138: that is fricking awesome 17:53:53 <andythenorth> my eyes bleed at the font 17:54:04 <andythenorth> finally, I will be able to drop vehicles in the bin easily :P 17:54:24 <andythenorth> and you need a new x 17:54:34 <argoneus> I wonder if it would be possible to implement control groups and viewport hotkeys into openttd 17:54:39 <argoneus> so I could play it like starcraft with 200 apm 17:54:53 <peter1138> andythenorth, it's tricky with your dodgy FISH sprite offsets though :p 17:54:55 <argoneus> and not before long koreans would compete 1vs1 openttd 17:55:09 <andythenorth> peter1138: maybe they need changed :P 17:55:15 * argoneus tries to imagine how that would look like in practice 17:55:22 <andythenorth> the Squid ones are hack for buy menu centering 17:55:35 <andythenorth> Iâm not changing the FISH 1 ones, that set is dead 17:56:17 <Eddi|zuHause> was the purchase menu scaling ever included? 17:56:31 <peter1138> I wonder how usuable this 4X is on a 4K displaY? :p 17:57:01 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: implement retina display support :p 17:57:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: your patch that enabled centering is included iirc 17:57:15 <andythenorth> or at least whatever made it difficult is now gone afaict 17:57:32 <andythenorth> oh it was positioning the text iirc 17:57:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. that was part of it 17:58:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever adapted CETS 17:58:19 <peter1138> andythenorth, squid is fine 17:58:28 <andythenorth> hmm, was that patch actually included? 17:58:36 <andythenorth> Squid is doing something clever with widths 17:58:41 <andythenorth> but I think thatâs just for centering 17:58:53 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 17:58:57 <peter1138> well, other than the sprites being so huge they overlap 17:59:00 <V453000> Eddi, better start learning blender if you want sprites for CETS :D 17:59:06 <andythenorth> voxels 17:59:14 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i tried blender 17:59:15 <Rubidium> peter1138: does that patch come with a 2560 by 1920 monitor as well? ;) 17:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: it was horrible 17:59:22 <andythenorth> but voxels at 2:1 resolution not 1:1 17:59:26 <V453000> TRY HARDER :D 17:59:33 <V453000> then try 3ds max :) 17:59:39 <andythenorth> he canât write a model generator 17:59:47 <andythenorth> actually, he probably could 17:59:56 <Eddi|zuHause> more chances i adapt pixeltool 18:00:05 <peter1138> Rubidium, :p 18:00:15 <peter1138> Rubidium, as i said, it's easier to see problems that don't manifest at 2x 18:00:20 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i have a "crude" model generator 18:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that at the moment can only generate boxes 18:00:36 <peter1138> Rubidium, like fixed offsets that just happen to be big enough, though should be dynamic 18:00:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: write a procedural model generator 18:01:08 <andythenorth> actually model components - axles, bodies, details 18:01:20 <andythenorth> then use a random generation algorithm 18:01:30 <andythenorth> then get the âcommunityâ to tell you which ones are realistic 18:01:34 <andythenorth> like Galaxy Zoo 18:01:43 <andythenorth> and bin the rest 18:01:47 <andythenorth> rinse, repeat 18:01:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you mean like genetic algorithm? 18:03:05 <andythenorth> exactly 18:05:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder if i can make CETS into a TF mod 18:06:31 <andythenorth> well you have a code generator⊠18:06:38 <andythenorth> aids portability 18:07:36 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:48 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 18:07:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but is there a TF mod spec? 18:08:34 <andythenorth> join their forums? 18:08:38 <andythenorth> http://www.train-fever.com/forums/forum/modding/ 18:09:25 <andythenorth> lots of mods 18:09:29 <andythenorth> way more than ottd probably 18:10:39 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of mods, but no comprehensive spec? 18:11:14 <andythenorth> not an obvious one 18:11:21 <andythenorth> there are only 5 staff 18:14:09 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FFB9B41.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:18 <Rubidium> although... I guess we need to introduce two more zoom-in levels. How else would we not get too small icons on 8k (although that is already so 2008) 18:15:37 <Wolf01> http://www.train-fever.com/forums/topic/mod-suggestion-grass-grows-on-unused-tracks/ <- lol 18:16:52 <andythenorth> I am glad I am not on of the five TF developers 18:17:00 <andythenorth> I would be too angry too often 18:17:56 <andythenorth> they are going to have 200 persistent idiots turning up asking for all the features OTTD canât do 18:18:03 <andythenorth> and theyâve paid 18:18:32 <andythenorth> and theyâll want to know why feature xyz canât be done, now that TF is free of OTTDâs ancient messy code 18:19:03 <andythenorth> because everyone knows that 3D graphics implies an endlessly extensible codebase 18:19:09 <andythenorth> with no scaling or performance issues 18:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and anonther 200 that ask for features that OTTD already does? 18:19:23 <andythenorth> that too 18:19:37 <andythenorth> but theyâll spend most of their time fighting performance problems 18:19:38 <andythenorth> and OS X 18:19:48 <andythenorth> whilst frantically trying to add paid DLC so they can make payroll 18:22:19 <andythenorth> also 18:22:27 <andythenorth> when are we going to rewrite OTTD? 18:22:32 <andythenorth> in a proper modern language 18:22:53 <Wolf01> in english? 18:23:05 <Eddi|zuHause> witespace. 18:23:35 <Wolf01> at least brainfuck 18:23:45 <andythenorth> I was thinking PHP 18:23:53 <Wolf01> no, please 18:24:22 <Wolf01> (I'm fighting with a MySQL installation which doesn't work right now) 18:24:27 <Rubidium> obviously in bash. Then you has proper programming from the start; anyone can control your server ;) 18:24:48 <Wolf01> dinner time 18:26:04 <andythenorth> Rubidium: by design 18:26:07 <andythenorth> feature not bug 18:27:02 *** sla_ro|master2 [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 18:27:22 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:29:16 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.26.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:31:15 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FFB9B41.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 18:34:34 <peter1138> andythenorth, pascal 18:34:50 <andythenorth> true 18:36:58 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 18:44:56 <peter1138> cool, openttd crashed 18:44:58 <peter1138> by itself 18:49:27 <peter1138> hmm, maybe i was a new ship 18:49:28 <andythenorth> feature 18:49:34 <andythenorth> autonomous crashing 18:49:47 <Alberth> it protested against its rewrite :p 18:52:01 <peter1138> :p 18:52:16 <peter1138> usual assert(min < max) 18:52:21 <peter1138> means a window isn't big enough :p 18:52:35 <peter1138> for andythenorth's massive doobreys 18:53:02 <andythenorth> :( 18:53:29 <Pikka> speaking of which, 3-tile ship lengths are fine, right? 18:56:30 *** kais58|AFK is now known as kais58___ 18:56:55 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-122-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 18:57:41 <andythenorth> yeah totally 18:57:54 <Pikka> splendid 18:58:00 <peter1138> Who cares about overlaps 18:58:07 <andythenorth> how big is a tile? :P 18:58:14 <andythenorth> Squid stops at 140px 18:58:15 <andythenorth> :P 18:58:17 <Pikka> 5400km or something 18:58:18 <Rubidium> ~600 km 18:58:27 <Pikka> depends what you're measuring 18:58:54 * Pikka back some time, if not sooner 18:59:01 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-46-133.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: 1 tile is 16 steps, a step is 4px -, 2px |, 2+1px / or \ 19:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so 2 tiles - ist 128px 19:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> -t 19:01:05 * peter1138 zooms Eddi|zuHause out 19:01:47 * Eddi|zuHause is fractal, doesn't change on zoom 19:02:06 <andythenorth> is Eddi|zuHause procedurally generated? 19:02:16 <Rubidium> @calc (4+2+2*sqrt(5))/4 19:02:16 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 2.61803398875 19:02:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes. DNA is very procedural 19:02:58 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:05:28 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:09:25 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:13:57 *** smith1232 [~a@93-136-125-215.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:16:31 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FFB9B41.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:17:02 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 19:27:54 *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 19:31:10 *** DDR [~kvirc@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 19:37:52 <peter1138> ah, the engine preview window... 19:38:08 <peter1138> relies on being wide enough by the text in it, heh 19:40:10 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:51 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 19:41:50 <andythenorth> yes 19:41:55 <andythenorth> clever eh? 19:44:11 <FUZxxl> peter1138: what does it look when this does not hold? 19:45:28 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:47:58 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:48:10 <peter1138> a crash 19:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that assert should probably be changed to just crop things 19:54:29 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 19:58:43 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p5DE455DF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 20:02:21 <peter1138> yes, i always change my assert() to crop() 20:04:48 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:05:04 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 20:10:47 *** sla_ro|master2 [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 20:11:31 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 20:14:23 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!] 20:20:20 <Wolf01> 'night 20:20:23 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:27:18 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:27:52 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 20:33:36 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p5DE455DF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:39:38 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26932 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2014-09-27 20:39:32 UTC) 20:39:39 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: replace some constants with less weird looking constants and simplify clamping by actually using Clamp 20:55:41 *** Jiinxs [~Jiinxs@ti0038a400-0515.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:55:51 *** Jiinxs [~Jiinxs@ti0038a400-0515.bb.online.no] has joined #openttd 20:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> tgp code is probably a source of endless joy :p 21:00:16 <andythenorth> bed 21:00:17 <andythenorth> bye 21:00:18 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:03:48 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:12:58 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:17:11 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: especially with three kinds of changes interwoven and the person that has done the changes in some cases just stabbing in the dark which constant to modify 21:17:27 <Rubidium> so you have to reason why they changed things in the ways they did 21:18:15 <Rubidium> as a result... piecing things together and splitting a patch 21:18:27 <Rubidium> but... more tomorrow or even later 21:28:37 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 21:49:36 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 21:52:27 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6B624.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:54:01 <peter1138> Please feel free to rip out the variety stuff and replace it with something sane. 21:54:21 *** mist_ [~mist@c-74fa70d5.034-4-67626721.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:57:03 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:57:50 *** mist [~mist@c-74fa70d5.034-4-67626721.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 22:02:26 *** frosch [~frosch@frnk-4d01fd6c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 22:18:18 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:27:40 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 22:41:37 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:d981:82a4:75fb:e663] has quit [Quit: .] 22:56:07 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:57:58 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 23:01:32 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd 23:23:13 *** b_jonas_ [~x@russell2.math.bme.hu] has joined #openttd 23:25:11 *** b_jonas [~x@russell2.math.bme.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:44:53 <argoneus> any idea where I can find how large of a buffer size I need for the admin port to receive? 23:45:05 <argoneus> I'm trying to see if ottd has some upper limit for packet size 23:45:07 <argoneus> but I can't find 23:49:11 <Eddi|zuHause> UDP packages have a maximum size. TCP doesn't 23:49:13 <Supercheese> Check source I guess 23:50:13 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: so when I recv, it receives everything? 23:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue how network code actually works 23:50:37 <argoneus> or is there anything more I have to do 23:59:36 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i5387A080.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/nkczDT] 23:59:46 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, even if there was a maximum size defined in openttd code, always assume that the remote partner sends unsafe data