Log for #openttd on 27th September 2014:
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00:21:10  <borbra> hi
00:22:20  <borbra> why don't my trains go to the given trainstation?
00:22:50  <borbra> it's in the orderlist, but the just seem to ignore it
00:23:23  <Eddi|zuHause> missing electrification
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00:24:35  <borbra> Eddi|zuHause: now just feel stupid -_-
00:24:52  <Eddi|zuHause> happens to the best of us :p
00:25:07  <borbra> hehe
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01:19:10  <TorCoolguy> Hi
01:19:54  <TorCoolguy> my openttd install on mac os x 10.5.8 is not working, I have opengfx installed, but every time I launch openttd it just quits unexpectedly
01:20:11  <TorCoolguy> opengfx is in ~/Documents/OpenTTD/data
01:22:51  <argoneus> shouldn't opengfx be in the baseset folder?
01:22:59  <argoneus> (assuming there is one on mac)
01:23:00  <TorCoolguy> I tried that too
01:23:10  <TorCoolguy> ~/Documents/OpenTTD/basenet
01:23:11  <TorCoolguy> right?
01:23:19  <argoneus> baseset, yes
01:23:28  <TorCoolguy> that's where it is?
01:23:31  <argoneus> yes
01:23:43  <TorCoolguy> good, I have it there
01:23:50  <TorCoolguy> It's supposed to be unpacked, and not in a folder right?
01:23:57  <argoneus> I have it packed
01:24:00  <argoneus> but it shouldn't matter
01:24:02  <TorCoolguy> in a tar?
01:24:04  <argoneus> just dropping the tar into the folder is enough
01:24:04  <TorCoolguy> or in a zip?
01:24:14  <TorCoolguy> should it be called anything?
01:24:21  <argoneus> don't think it matters
01:24:38  <TorCoolguy> still doesn't work :(
01:24:51  <TorCoolguy> OpenTTD 1.4.1 works though, from macports
01:24:54  <argoneus> I have never used mac sorry :<
01:25:04  <argoneus> but on linux it's pretty much extract & run
01:25:11  <TorCoolguy> :(
01:25:20  <TorCoolguy> Sucks...
01:25:21  <argoneus> why macports?
01:25:25  <argoneus> the universal build from website doesn't work?
01:25:30  <TorCoolguy> Yeah it doesn't
01:25:35  <TorCoolguy> Trying to compile it right now
01:25:44  <TorCoolguy> Taking a while since I'm also compiling qt4
01:25:54  <TorCoolguy> and I'm on a powermac g5.
01:29:19  <TorCoolguy> argoneus: should the 1.4.1 and 1.4.3 version of OpenTTD be compatible through multiplayer?
01:29:49  <argoneus> nope
01:30:01  <argoneus> you would get a version mismatch
01:30:02  <TorCoolguy> argoneus: Aw
01:30:12  <TorCoolguy> argoneus: At least that explains that problem.
01:33:59  <TorCoolguy> argoneus: what should I do about this error though?
01:35:25  <argoneus> I have no clue, I have never used a mac :<
01:36:30  <TorCoolguy> argoneus: anyone around here uses macs?
01:37:50  <argoneus> no clue
01:38:15  <TorCoolguy> :(
01:38:49  <glx> why not use the osx version directely ?
01:39:42  <TorCoolguy> I am
01:39:45  <TorCoolguy> doesn't work
01:40:45  <TorCoolguy> glx: It just immediatly quits, I have openglx in the right place
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01:42:06  <glx> try to start it from a terminal, to see if there's an error message
01:43:44  <TorCoolguy> glx: LSOpenFromURLSpec() failed with error -10810 for the file /Users/.../
01:48:36  <TorCoolguy> glx: any ideas?
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01:53:00  <glx> that's the code for unknown error
01:53:30  <glx> so launcher fails to start openttd for unknown reason
01:53:41  <TorCoolguy> glx: Yep
01:53:55  <TorCoolguy> glx: When I start openttd directly from inside the package I get a bus error
01:58:18  <argoneus> Xaroth / Xaroth|Work : how did you figure out that you need to force the struct to be little endian?
01:58:28  <argoneus> (libottdadmin2)
01:58:58  <glx> TorCoolguy: I don't know what could be wrong and I'm not an OSX specialist
01:59:13  <TorCoolguy> glx: :L
01:59:17  <TorCoolguy> glx: who is?
01:59:32  <glx> most of them are sleeping at that time
01:59:33  <TorCoolguy> I got 1.4.3 to run
01:59:38  <TorCoolguy> I had to build it
02:01:36  <glx> maybe a broken ppc lib on the compile farm then
02:04:43  <TorCoolguy> hmm maybe
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02:05:27  <glx> looks like the comments in
02:08:24  <TorCoolguy> yeps
02:08:29  <argoneus> when I create a dedicated serveron my machine
02:08:36  <argoneus> should it be accessible on
02:08:54  <glx> argoneus: yes
02:08:54  <TorCoolguy> OpenMSX doesn't work though :(
02:08:57  <TorCoolguy> No music
02:12:09  <TorCoolguy> gix: the music from the online content doesn't work
02:12:14  <TorCoolguy> glx: I downloaded openmsx...
02:13:25  <glx> player is started ?
02:13:30  <TorCoolguy> yes
02:14:29  <glx> argoneus: unless you modified server_bind_ip in cfg
02:15:46  <argoneus> didn't
02:16:04  <glx> so it listen on all available IP
02:16:23  <glx> and localhost is one of them :)
02:18:27  <glx> TorCoolguy: and it's selected in the options ?
02:18:32  <TorCoolguy> glx: yes
02:21:46  <glx> it works for me
02:21:51  <TorCoolguy> glx: :(
02:22:03  <glx> but I'm on windows so that says nothing
02:22:10  <TorCoolguy> yeah...
02:22:13  <TorCoolguy> It works in 1.4.1 though
02:22:41  <glx> maybe a missing lib in your custom build
02:23:55  <TorCoolguy> :(
02:23:57  <TorCoolguy> like what?
02:24:00  <TorCoolguy> sound still works.
02:24:08  <glx> better wait for someone knowing more than me
02:24:17  <TorCoolguy> mkay
02:24:20  <TorCoolguy> I can still play though :D
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05:56:28  <andythenorth> o/
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06:02:57  <Rubidium> moin andythenorth
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06:11:04  <andythenorth> given a dict of year: speed mappings, e.g. {1920: 35, 1940: 55}
06:11:17  <andythenorth> what’s the most elegant way to return the speed for say, 1927?
06:11:34  <andythenorth> I’ve thought of a couple of ugly ways based on sorting the keys and doing comparisons
06:12:00  <andythenorth> there’s probably a lambda or a recursion or something that’s neater
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06:25:44  <andythenorth> print foo[max([i for i in foo if bar >= i])] seems to work
06:30:43  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
06:30:44  <Flygon> ...
06:30:57  <Flygon> ...dunno why I fixed that nick when I am rebooting in 10 minutes
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06:38:21  <Rubidium> andythenorth: ?
06:42:01  <andythenorth> ho splines and stuff
06:50:39  <andythenorth> hmm
06:50:52  <andythenorth> something you look up per group isn’t really a global constant
06:51:00  * andythenorth mumble mumble
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07:08:34  <Pikka> well
07:12:14  <andythenorth> yes
07:12:21  <andythenorth> you has blagged boots also
07:12:33  <Pikka> bragged bloots?
07:13:14  <andythenorth> indeed
07:14:52  <Pikka> whither?
07:15:36  <andythenorth> so it’s all about refittability?
07:16:29  <Pikka> well, that's my thinking. about refittablility and size.
07:17:11  <andythenorth> makes sense
07:17:22  <Pikka> I mean really we only need one ship
07:17:29  <Pikka> but I don't think players will stand for that
07:18:05  <Supercheese> or sit for it
07:18:12  <Supercheese> or even lie down
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07:18:27  <Pikka> so, big bulkers and tankers for the mine and oil rig runs
07:18:38  <Pikka> and smaller widely-refittable ships for everything else
07:18:39  <Pikka> job done
07:18:45  <Alberth> aye
07:20:04  <andythenorth> also tug log
07:20:20  <Pikka> no lug togs, neither fishing boats. :P at least not for me.
07:20:28  <andythenorth> shameful
07:20:36  <andythenorth> how do you catch the hake?
07:20:50  <Pikka> with a trader, probably
07:21:05  <Pikka> or a container ship if they're piece or express :D
07:21:27  <andythenorth> zellepin
07:21:42  <Pikka> zellepin trader
07:22:02  <Pikka> Alberth. plenty o' boats.
07:22:59  <Pikka> dan was asking the other day about the hovercarfairy, andythenorth. are you shipping it over to him for pixelwork?
07:23:10  <andythenorth> that’s an idea
07:23:14  <andythenorth> was going to do it myself
07:23:22  <andythenorth> Water Bus?
07:23:33  <Pikka> little river ferry type of thing
07:23:37  <Pikka> vaporetto
07:23:42  <andythenorth> DUKW
07:23:49  <Pikka> nein
07:24:00  <Alberth> all the years seem a bit same-ish, no?
07:24:08  <andythenorth> LCACV BARC DUKW 130-20
07:24:12  * andythenorth makes things up
07:24:23  * Alberth stops decoding
07:24:31  <andythenorth> I did consider a self-propelled pontoon last week
07:24:33  <andythenorth> silly
07:24:46  <Pikka> same-ish?
07:24:58  <Alberth> a yeti dude could push it :)
07:25:03  * V453000 places a question what the fuck is andythenorth talking about :D
07:25:22  <Alberth> all steam ends at 2000, large -> super all at 2015
07:25:47  <Alberth> V453000:  maybe he doesn't know himself either :)
07:26:07  <Pikka> there's a few generations which all come out around the same year, sure. but that's fine. :)
07:26:23  <Pikka> at least it's not all 1870 ;)
07:26:46  <Alberth> indeed, they'd be unused for the first 40 years :p
07:27:01  <andythenorth> V453000:
07:27:26  <andythenorth> BARC
07:27:33  <andythenorth>
07:27:36  <andythenorth> nonsenses
07:27:51  <V453000> asdf
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07:28:27  <Pikka> well, that's just a general idea of when they'd disappear from the buy list
07:28:29  <Alberth> make a silly-vehicles newgrf :)
07:28:37  <V453000> me is creating 8bpp sprites because I discovered tha apparently the amount of retards using 8bpp blitter is not low :D
07:28:44  <V453000> not to mention that it can help with cpu heaviness
07:28:50  <Pikka> chances are players would stop using those ships long before then :)
07:28:56  <V453000> Pikka: does pineapple have proper 8bpp ? :D
07:29:03  <V453000> yeti had just "8bpp placeholders" till now
07:29:05  <Pikka> define "proper 8bpp"
07:29:07  <Alberth> Pikka:  fair enough :)
07:29:22  <Pikka> if "proper 8bpp" means "every sprite is a 16 pixel square", then yes.
07:29:43  <V453000> I rather meant "will stuff show properly if someone forces 8bpp blitter"
07:29:52  <Pikka> again
07:29:54  <Pikka> "properly"? ;)
07:30:10  <V453000> well yeti industries e.g. have only 1 tile repeated 16 times :D
07:30:13  <V453000> some of them anyway
07:30:17  <Alberth> you can see it's a WTF industry?  :)
07:30:18  <V453000> that is what I would call "not proper" :P
07:30:30  <planetmaker> moin moin
07:30:34  <V453000> aka broken as shit
07:30:36  <Alberth> hi hi
07:30:36  <V453000> hi pm
07:31:11  <Pikka> <- would you call every sprite being that "proper"?
07:31:19  <Pikka> because that's what pineapple does :)
07:31:24  <Alberth> V453000: make a sign "here you can see a beautiful factory if you use 32bpp"
07:31:39  <V453000> XD
07:31:40  <V453000> XD
07:31:41  <V453000> XD
07:31:42  <V453000> XD
07:31:57  <V453000> well done Pikka I like it XD
07:32:22  <planetmaker> I actually like alberth's suggestion :)
07:33:13  * Pikka must went
07:33:16  <Pikka> back in some
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07:33:47  * Alberth hopes it's not 'years'
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07:44:31  <V453000> what could be causing this?
07:44:40  <V453000> the tiles are terraformed to be lowered under the industry
07:44:43  <andythenorth> foundations
07:44:46  <V453000> so there are hilly things
07:44:58  <V453000> hm
07:45:10  <V453000> what do?
07:45:16  <andythenorth> it’s probably the rear foundation sprite that gets drawn
07:45:21  <andythenorth> can’t remember what I do to solve it
07:45:23  <andythenorth> quite common
07:45:31  <V453000> hmz
07:45:40  <V453000> I will drop shit on it for now
07:45:43  <andythenorth> move the ground tile
07:45:52  <V453000> like move it down?
07:45:57  <V453000> by offset?
07:46:00  <andythenorth> yes
07:46:05  <andythenorth> right / up
07:46:20  <andythenorth> looks like it’s too far left anyway
07:46:24  <V453000> hm
07:46:29  <andythenorth> the LH foundations are covered up
07:46:34  <V453000> yeah
07:46:51  <V453000> sooo 1 to the right?
07:46:54  <andythenorth> in FIRS I just shuffle them around until they look right in game
07:46:59  <andythenorth> try it with sprite aligner first
07:47:16  <V453000> rite
07:47:23  <andythenorth> maybe you can’t bodge us much with EZ, dunno
07:47:27  <andythenorth> us / as /s
07:47:33  <V453000> well yeah x4 is a bit ass in this
07:47:50  <V453000>  / a bit / fucking lot
07:48:22  <andythenorth> I’m not jealous
07:48:29  <V453000> :d
07:48:33  <andythenorth> it probably is worth the effort, but eh
07:48:54  <andythenorth> there are plenty of cute looking pixel games on ipad, my kids like them
07:48:58  <V453000> both things are a lot of effort, both give different output, I wouldnt compare it much
07:49:02  <andythenorth> and they’re all zoomed up from iphone size
07:49:26  <V453000> I personally like working with 3D very much lately, hence this
07:49:26  <andythenorth> you didn’t consider voxels?
07:49:27  <andythenorth> o_O
07:49:30  <V453000> lol
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07:50:04  <andythenorth> I am serious :P
07:50:04  <andythenorth>
07:51:31  <V453000> :)
07:51:33  <V453000> lego
07:52:03  <andythenorth>
07:52:12  <V453000> I am getting my brain demolished by reading quite complex character animation books lately so even seeing the critter makes my brain explode
07:52:35  <V453000> it looks interesting, I will give them that :P
07:52:42  <V453000> in fact most of yeti objects are boxes, t oo
07:52:50  <andythenorth>
07:52:56  <V453000> I kind of feel it fits the tile nature of openttd
07:53:04  <andythenorth> ho that one has python plugins
07:53:15  <V453000> ._.
07:53:56  <andythenorth>
07:54:42  <V453000> STAHP :D
07:55:19  <andythenorth> might have to try that later
07:55:41  <andythenorth> dunno about drawing that for 1x zoom
07:55:50  <andythenorth> pixel art relies on loads of cheats
07:55:53  <V453000> 3D GOGO
07:55:59  <andythenorth> as soon as it is actual cubes, it won’t work right
07:56:17  <andythenorth> most of the time with pixels, what you’re seeing isn’t what’s drawn
07:56:33  <V453000> kind of
07:56:40  <andythenorth> light and dark
07:56:43  <andythenorth> colour blends
07:56:46  <andythenorth> cheating the shapes
07:56:47  <V453000> just creating illusion to make the player perceive what you want him to
07:56:50  <V453000> yes kind of :)
07:56:58  <andythenorth> also voxels are iso not di
07:57:06  <andythenorth> or even perspective
07:57:10  <andythenorth> PITA
07:57:16  <andythenorth> to change the renderer
07:57:16  <V453000> :D
07:57:22  <V453000> you just change camera
07:57:24  <V453000> not renderer
07:57:32  <V453000> one check "orthographic camera"
07:57:32  <V453000> done
07:57:38  <andythenorth> that simple eh?
07:57:39  <andythenorth> winner
07:57:42  <V453000> that simple.
07:57:56  <planetmaker> othographic? Not dimetric?
07:57:57  <andythenorth> imagine trying to do a cylinder with voxels
07:58:02  <andythenorth> for tank wagon
07:58:04  <andythenorth> won’t work
07:58:08  <andythenorth> works in pixels
07:58:16  <V453000> 3ds max calls it orthographic pm :)
07:58:36  <V453000> the shit without perspective. :P
07:59:29  <V453000> I honestly never heard word dimetric in 3D either
07:59:40  <V453000> I dont know which is the technically proper term
07:59:50  <planetmaker> V453000, there's a difference between orthographic and dimetric
08:00:01  <V453000> and isometric?
08:01:12  <V453000> well 3D max calls it Orthographic viewport, anda camera has Orthographic projection :)
08:01:24  <Alberth> dimetric is the angle to get the x/y/z axes in a 2/1 size
08:01:40  <Alberth> + orthographic
08:01:41  <V453000> so isometric with 30deg angle
08:01:47  <V453000> orthographic yeah
08:01:50  <V453000> mixing up words .D
08:02:59  <Alberth> isometric is wider than dimetric, it means "map 3d to 2d"
08:03:17  <V453000> idontgetit
08:03:21  <V453000> BUT my sprites work :D -> win
08:03:27  <Alberth> ie x:y:z = 1:1:1 is also isometric
08:03:38  <planetmaker> both are parallel projections. As is isometric. the angles different
08:03:38  <V453000> right
08:03:51  <andythenorth> bbl
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08:03:53  <V453000> but everything is orthographic :P
08:04:04  <Alberth> dimetric is also an isometric projection, but such that x:y:z = 2:2:1
08:04:13  <V453000> y
08:04:44  <V453000> the 3D just sets that through camera angle / relative difference from camera target
08:04:50  <Alberth> orthographic is "without perspective", ie lines stay parallel
08:04:57  <V453000> yes exactly
08:05:51  <peter1138>
08:06:25  <V453000> yarr
08:06:59  <V453000> which seems like openttd uses isometric
08:07:07  <peter1138> nope, isometric doesn't allow the nice 2:1 diagonal lines
08:07:09  <planetmaker> no, dimetric
08:07:19  <V453000> ok :D
08:07:33  <V453000> my shit works under 30deg ortho, end of discussion :P
08:07:34  <V453000> :D
08:07:36  <peter1138> is it dimetric because one of the angles is different
08:08:16  <peter1138>
08:09:17  <Supercheese> No Transport Tycoon in that article, boo
08:09:43  * Supercheese debates editing
08:09:47  <planetmaker> If I understand it correctly, dimetric is a special isometric projection which in turn is a special orthogonal projection
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08:10:02  <Supercheese> Whoops, says isometric
08:10:13  <planetmaker> you should edit it, Supercheese :)
08:10:17  * Supercheese is confused
08:10:20  <Supercheese> which is it really?
08:10:30  <planetmaker> dimetric as there are two different angles
08:10:55  <peter1138> when talking about computer games, it's commonly referred to as "isometric"
08:11:09  <peter1138> however, if you're actually drawing graphics for it, you need to know the different
08:11:26  <V453000> Supercheese: write there "render shit under 30deg and be done with it" :P
08:11:35  <Supercheese> haha
08:13:31  <peter1138> Yeah, top right of the last one I linked says 30°
08:14:03  <V453000> Camera setup  First has been created a spline under 30° slope, setting the camera to Ortographic, and moving it along the spline until I got somewhat optimal result. The resulting coordinates of the camera relative the the center point of the 4x4 industry are: [41,9 | -41,9 | 34,211] Camera Target is at the center point, so [0 | 0 | 0].
08:14:06  <V453000> :P
08:14:09  <V453000>
08:14:31  <Alberth> problem solved :)
08:14:37  <Supercheese> Seems to agree with
08:14:41  <peter1138> don't forget to apply your tile edge mask
08:14:41  <peter1138> :p
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08:14:58  <V453000> peter1138: ? :D it is quite important.
08:15:15  <peter1138> Yeah, those antialiased tile edges suck
08:15:24  <peter1138> (I wrote analised first time :S)
08:15:51  <V453000> then dont make fun of it :P everybody should do that tbh
08:15:58  <V453000> if they create ground tiles that is
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08:19:52  <peter1138> I'm not making fun of it!
08:20:10  <peter1138> I'm sure last time I mentioned it was said that it was too much hassle to bother with.
08:20:34  <V453000> tis easy :)
08:22:09  <V453000> takes ~2 hours to set up
08:22:13  <V453000> and then everything renders automatically
08:22:20  <V453000> 2 hours max
08:24:07  <peter1138> I suppose applying it to zBase would be a lot of effort?
08:24:26  <V453000> well yes because zbase is rendered already being cut
08:24:37  <peter1138> There is source, isn't there?
08:24:53  <V453000> yes
08:24:59  <peter1138> So possible, just effort.
08:25:01  <V453000> you would have to rework all cameras
08:25:05  <V453000> sure, possible it is
08:25:06  <peter1138> :S
08:25:24  <peter1138> Mind you, TTD original still looks best to me :p
08:25:26  <V453000> + do some extra modeling on things that are models of single tiles
08:25:36  <V453000> TTD original is best, no question
08:25:45  <V453000> professional artwork, nuff said
08:26:04  <Rubidium> peter1138: which TTD original? DOS (non German), German DOS or Windows?
08:26:41  <peter1138> Er... is there much difference?
08:26:57  <Rubidium> not much, but there are differences
08:27:08  <Supercheese> oh?
08:27:12  <Rubidium> mostly in bugged sprites and fewer colours in Windows
08:27:21  <Rubidium> bugged sprites in one of the DOS ones
08:27:54  <peter1138> Oh yes, the palette difference.
08:27:58  <planetmaker> why would you need to rework all *cameras*, V453000 ?
08:28:19  <V453000> pm because they are animating among tiles and have a special cutting matte object
08:28:23  <V453000> I looked
08:28:25  <Rubidium> though... for OpenTTD we overwrite the bugged sprites with openttd.grf
08:28:38  <Rubidium> see media/extra/fix_graphics.*
08:28:55  <peter1138> Damn, these sprite offsets are terrible...
08:29:04  <V453000> e.g. industries are made the way that a camera has 16 animated positions, each being rendered separately, with an extra object that animates with the camera and hides things so that each tile renders separately
08:29:11  <V453000> which is completely opposite to what I am doing
08:29:59  <V453000> and I am not aware that 3D render could have precise non-antialiased full-alpha edges
08:30:06  <V453000> perhaps it can
08:31:18  <V453000> -> solution is to create a new camera which simply looks at the whole model and render it as a whole, cut it in postproduction
08:32:03  <planetmaker> yeah
08:32:24  <V453000> but lets face it, point of zbase was to make a point that 32bpp works
08:32:26  <V453000> not make it perfect
08:32:38  <liq3> zbase looks awful. :<
08:32:44  <Supercheese> sadly, yeah
08:32:50  <V453000> it does, but it made people even consider 32bpp/ez
08:33:04  <liq3> Yeh, 32bpp could look great if someone put the work in.
08:33:05  <planetmaker> it fulfilled and fulfills its purpose
08:33:23  <V453000> as for me, it rather made me scared that it is not possible to easily and feasibly to create renders which look nice in OpenTTD
08:33:33  <V453000> but all just a matter of trying :)
08:33:43  <liq3> YETI's industries look good.
08:33:58  <V453000> they will look even better later
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08:34:22  <juzza1> you can get non-aa edges in blender, but it will still fail because the tile height is "wrong" in openttd (31 px instead of 32)
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08:34:51  <V453000> okay :)
08:35:12  <V453000> doing all that in postproduction is sufficiently immune to similar hacks :P
08:35:42  <V453000> I am not even mentioning that animating camera means it is considerably more problematic to create something that animates on normal time scale
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08:36:30  <Wolf01> hi hi
08:37:33  <peter1138> juzza1, not possible to "fix" that
08:37:53  <peter1138> juzza1, it's not especially "wrong" anyway
08:39:01  <V453000> the stretched side views make bigger problem anyway :P
08:39:04  <planetmaker> the vehicle size change along axes is more wrong ;)
08:39:10  <peter1138> Yeah :D
08:40:57  <Supercheese> apparently money also changes size along with the vehicles :P
08:41:15  <planetmaker> :P
08:41:44  <juzza1> peter1138: it's not 2:1, so in that sense it's wrong. But i was not suggesting it should be fixed, merely stated why straight non-aa rendering of tiles will likely fail
08:43:02  <Supercheese> Special relativity as applied to OTTD. γ = (1 / (1 - v²/c²)^0.5 ) * cos Ξ    :P
08:43:18  <V453000> lol what the fuck
08:43:26  <Supercheese> that did not turn out formatted well
08:43:31  <V453000> 30deg be done with it is all I am saying :D
08:43:32  <Wolf01> it's edible?
08:43:53  <planetmaker> drinkable
08:44:17  <Wolf01> good, I like to swallow math formulas, but no every one is edible
08:44:25  <Wolf01> *not
08:44:54  <Supercheese> it is rather difficult to stick formulae into here :S
08:45:16  <planetmaker> the rendering didn't went too badly really, Supercheese
08:46:18  <planetmaker> (in other words: with plain text and only utf8 and one font size and height you can't do better)
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08:47:19  <Wolf01> Oh, I have a question: why is the backspace key in the OSK pointing the wrong direction?
08:47:37  <planetmaker> maybe your arabic ancestry?
08:48:03  <Wolf01> how does OTTD know?
08:48:08  <peter1138> Wrong direction?
08:49:02  <Wolf01> it points right, ehm, right is wrong... man, it's like  define true = false
08:49:29  <peter1138> Not for me...
08:49:31  <planetmaker> an image says more than 1000 words?
08:49:34  <Wolf01> wait
08:49:47  <peter1138> Only if I pick an RTL language.
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08:50:17  <Wolf01> maybe is my laptop
08:50:47  <planetmaker> hm, how did I get the osk? :D
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08:51:19  <peter1138> Double click on a text input box, by default.
08:51:19  <Wolf01> double click on a text field
08:51:24  <planetmaker> ah. Well. It points left for me
08:51:30  <peter1138> But that is configurable, of course.
08:51:44  <Wolf01> ok, updating to the nightly is good now
08:52:02  <Wolf01> with 1.4.3 it was wrong
08:52:08  <keoz> plop
08:52:28  <peter1138> It's not wrong in 1.4.3.
08:52:43  <Wolf01> no, it's still wrong
08:52:52  <Wolf01> try in the savegame window
08:53:28  <Wolf01> [OK    ][CANCEL][=>   ]
08:53:41  <peter1138> ...
08:53:42  <planetmaker> not for me
08:53:49  <Wolf01> instead of [OK    ][CANCEL][  <=]
08:53:56  <peter1138> Should be [Cancel][Ok   ][<=   ]
08:54:07  <peter1138> What language are you using?
08:54:12  <Wolf01> english
08:54:13  <V453000> got x1/8bpp support almost done (:
08:55:03  <planetmaker> it's the same for me with [ <= ] for trunk and 1.4.3
08:55:48  <peter1138> Wolf01, if you open a vehicle window, do you have the buttons on the left or right?
08:55:48  <Wolf01> all the in-game OSK are wrong, but in the title screen they are correct
08:56:59  <Wolf01> on the right
08:57:15  <Wolf01> all looks fine, except the backspace
08:57:26  <Wolf01> maybe it could be related to the bigGUI
08:57:36  <peter1138> Well no, your buttons are the wrong way around.
08:58:11  <peter1138> [Cancel][Ok   ][=>   ]
08:58:19  <peter1138> (not ok cancel =>)
08:58:25  <peter1138> So yes, BigGUI is broken.
08:59:01  <Wolf01> good
09:01:28  <peter1138> And it'll look silly with 2x UI I bet :D
09:03:12  <Wolf01> is it already in trunk?
09:03:50  <peter1138> It's been there ever since 4x zoom was added, as a define in a header file.
09:04:04  <peter1138> Albeit some windows aren't rendered correctly.
09:08:47  <Wolf01> do I need to enable it somewhere?
09:09:10  <Wolf01> because without bigGUI almost every widget is too small
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09:19:51  <peter1138> Silly Thom Yorke, I'm not paying money for MP3s :S
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09:21:29  <peter1138> Hmm, he's look unhealthy in this video...
09:21:49  <peter1138> +ing
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09:30:42  <peter1138> Hmm, BigGUI doesn't have a shadow on the close X
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09:45:25  <andythenorth> hmm
09:46:08  <Wolf01> o/
09:46:09  <andythenorth> what are the problems with station-at-industry-tiles?
09:46:16  <andythenorth> e.g. oil rig etc
09:46:33  <peter1138> interesting cargo routing ;p
09:46:48  <andythenorth> they’re hokey?
09:46:52  <Wolf01> except fishing grounds accepting helicopters without a landing pad?
09:51:34  <andythenorth> do they have a catchment?
09:51:46  <andythenorth> or is it only the industry
09:53:54  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26926 trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp (2014-09-27 09:53:48 UTC)
09:53:55  <DorpsGek> -Change: limit flat world height to the maximum configured map height
09:54:42  <andythenorth> wondering if I can make a 1 tile docks industry
09:54:50  <andythenorth> which is just a station
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10:02:21  <peter1138> distcc[22512] (dcc_zeroconf_add_hosts) CRITICAL! failed to parse host file.
10:02:26  <peter1138> this is annoying :(
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10:05:20  <peter1138> maybe i should just hardcode it :S
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10:08:46  <peter1138> PIKKA
10:09:10  <Pikkaphone> YES?
10:09:13  <peter1138> that's all
10:09:21  <Pikkaphone> Oh okay
10:09:38  <peter1138> hmm, ship drawing odd in ship list...
10:13:00  <peter1138> Oh, ah, it's space for the order list, which was blank because I had no orders, hah.
10:13:18  <Pikkaphone> splendid
10:14:51  <andythenorth> Pikkaphone phone home
10:15:15  <andythenorth> hmm
10:15:23  <andythenorth> logging tram or logging truc
10:15:25  <andythenorth> truck *
10:15:34  <Pikkaphone> who even has a home phone these days?
10:15:45  <Pikkaphone> logging dukw
10:15:58  <Pikkaphone> logging helicopter
10:16:47  <Pikkaphone> logging hovercraft
10:17:30  <andythenorth> logging lcac-barf
10:17:58  <Pikkaphone> trucks rather than trams I thonk
10:19:05  <Pikkaphone> or horse drawn zellepin
10:19:16  <andythenorth> trucks for brit
10:19:27  <andythenorth> horse drawn flying trams for america, australias
10:21:50  <peter1138> I have a home phone!
10:22:13  <Pikkaphone> you would
10:23:24  <peter1138> Mainly because ADSL comes via the phone line, so...
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10:27:46  <frosch123> hola
10:31:36  <Pikkaphone> aloh
10:32:50  <andythenorth> logging tram
10:32:51  <andythenorth>
10:33:01  <andythenorth> needs roadtypes
10:33:05  <andythenorth> (look at the wheels)
10:33:17  <Pikkaphone> si
10:35:27  <planetmaker> hola
10:35:28  <Pikkaphone> better get on with it, then :D
10:36:03  <andythenorth> bloody roadtypes
10:36:19  <andythenorth> is there room to just have a tile-is-powered bit instead :P
10:36:32  <andythenorth> tram, electric tram, road, electrified road
10:36:33  <andythenorth> done
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10:37:02  <Pikkaphone> what about dirt roads and cobbles and all that nonsense
10:37:14  <Pikkaphone> and futuristic super highways
10:37:30  <Pikkaphone> these are important feature requests
10:38:25  <andythenorth> yes
10:38:31  <andythenorth> they will certainly enhance gameplay
10:38:33  <andythenorth> one day
10:39:00  <Pikkaphone> and industrial Birmingham canals
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10:39:23  <Pikkaphone> and medieval trackways
10:40:00  <Pikkaphone> and ancient druidic leylines
10:40:17  <Pikkaphone> for the use of ancient druidic leylands
10:41:16  <andythenorth> also
10:41:38  <andythenorth> and we could have roads with different speeds
10:41:44  <andythenorth> and restrictions on maximum axle weight
10:41:54  <andythenorth> and surfaces that are slippery when wet
10:42:19  <Pikkaphone> yes
10:42:33  <andythenorth> we could have roadtype labels
10:42:41  <andythenorth> and a roadtype labels standardisation committee
10:43:01  <andythenorth> and we could have a vetting committee for the labels standardisation committee
10:43:12  <Pikkaphone> what about different road markings?
10:43:18  <andythenorth> also
10:43:53  <andythenorth> also road planning roads
10:44:05  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26927 /trunk/src (smallmap_gui.cpp table/heightmap_colours.h) (2014-09-27 10:43:59 UTC)
10:44:06  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: split the heightmap colour tables into their own file in the table folder
10:44:06  <andythenorth> and roads that you get a town-growth bonus for
10:44:16  <andythenorth> so that your interesting town-growth script can do growth
10:44:34  <Pikkaphone> roads with no one way
10:44:41  <Pikkaphone> or only one way
10:44:43  <andythenorth> and roads with no way
10:44:48  <andythenorth> closed roads
10:44:50  <Pikkaphone> yes
10:44:53  <peter1138> highways!
10:44:53  <andythenorth> with grass growing over them
10:44:58  <andythenorth> roads that are plowed in winter
10:45:01  <andythenorth> and roads that are not
10:45:37  <Pikkaphone> could have different maintenance costs
10:46:05  <Pikkaphone> good game play potential there
10:46:27  <andythenorth> roads with more or fewer nails in
10:46:32  <andythenorth> affects breakdowns
10:46:54  <Pikkaphone> roads which b doubles are allowed to use
10:47:06  <andythenorth> roads which b doubles may not use
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10:47:17  <andythenorth> also roads that you have to pay a congestion charge to use
10:47:29  <andythenorth> and roads where trucks are allowed, but only in certain hours
10:47:29  <Pikkaphone> roads which b doubles aren't allowed to use but do anyway
10:47:36  <andythenorth> that too
10:47:44  <andythenorth> we’d need a speed camera option
10:47:51  <Pikkaphone> so is decided
10:47:52  <andythenorth> so you could make money from your competitors
10:48:22  <andythenorth> yes is decided
10:48:30  <andythenorth> so now all is needed is spec
10:48:31  <ccfreak2k> So what's new in openttd fellas
10:48:31  <andythenorth> and coder
10:48:35  <Pikkaphone> we need at least 1024 road types
10:48:38  <andythenorth> at least
10:48:43  <andythenorth> and it must anticipate all future cases
10:48:53  <andythenorth> and be 100% extensible with no BAD FEATURES
10:49:06  <andythenorth> because BAD FEATURES (like dual-headed engines, or livery over-rides)
10:49:10  <andythenorth> are VERY VERY BAD
10:49:19  <andythenorth> instead of just something that is fun to gripe about
10:49:29  <Pikkaphone> yes
10:49:36  <andythenorth> also it must be aware of whatever might change in the map in future
10:49:42  <andythenorth> and be fully accessible to AI and GS
10:49:54  <andythenorth> it must also be backwards compatible with TTDP
10:50:13  <andythenorth> oh wait, too far?
10:50:18  <andythenorth> that last one sounds silly
10:51:31  <Pikkaphone> that's how you know you're on to something
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10:52:24  <andythenorth> Pikkaphone: so the first thing to do is make a spec
10:52:32  <andythenorth> then get it reviewed by all the relevant people
10:52:38  <Pikkaphone> is it?
10:52:43  <andythenorth> I believe so
10:52:52  <andythenorth> I’ve heard that’s how software is made correctly
10:52:59  <andythenorth> get a spec
10:53:05  <andythenorth> show it to all the stakeholders
10:53:10  <andythenorth> take all their input
10:53:15  <andythenorth> modify the spec until all needs are met
10:53:31  <andythenorth> afaik, anything else isn’t correct
10:53:57  <andythenorth> ha
10:54:02  <andythenorth> there is so much wrong with this
10:54:51  <Pikkaphone> isn't it
10:55:02  <andythenorth> definitely more realistic
10:55:04  <andythenorth> super realistic
10:55:12  <andythenorth>
10:55:18  <andythenorth> he didn’t even get the stickers straight :(
10:55:31  <andythenorth> lego + realism :P
10:55:37  <andythenorth> also
10:55:50  <andythenorth> quak
10:56:32  <Rubidium> andythenorth: that first one is definitely wrong... a steam train running on electricity stored in coal?!?
10:56:45  <andythenorth> yes
10:56:47  <andythenorth> not realistic
10:56:54  <andythenorth> and his flanges are way too deep also
10:57:03  <andythenorth> and real trains don’t use magnet couplers
10:57:06  <andythenorth> and that coal is plastic
10:57:11  <Pikkaphone> eh, I've seen stickers on real vehicles less straight than that.
10:57:13  <andythenorth> proper train fans use real coal
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10:59:12  <peter1138> meh, i need multiple docks :S
10:59:17  <andythenorth> you do
10:59:25  <Pikkaphone> yes
10:59:32  * andythenorth considers bouy docks
10:59:53  <Pikkaphone> and ships that don't drive through each other
11:00:12  <Pikkaphone> not much point in multiple docks otherwise...
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11:01:14  <Pikkaphone> you broke it
11:01:46  <andythen_> Child has taken mac away from me
11:02:00  <Pikkaphone> typical
11:02:24  <andythen_> He's playing ottd
11:02:47  <Alberth> play-testing your newgrfs :)
11:02:49  <Pikkaphone> how unusual
11:02:53  <andythen_> He's just learnt about vehicles having red or black profit numbers
11:03:53  <andythen_> He wants vehicle ferries
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11:05:38  <Pikkaphone> drive the truck onto the boat vehicle ferries?
11:05:46  <andythe__> Yes
11:05:48  <Alberth> but moving vehicles gives big red numbers
11:06:09  <Pikkaphone> better make it happen, then
11:06:34  <andythe__> Maybe tommorow
11:07:36  <peter1138> hmm, do buoys have an infrastructure cost?
11:07:57  <peter1138> Pikkaphone, there are other reasons for multiple docks
11:08:18  <peter1138> like in this case, a narrow bit of land with a dock either side, instead of going the long way around
11:08:25  <andythe__> Yes
11:08:32  <andythe__> Common case
11:09:08  <peter1138> Might just be easier to make a sea-canal (cheaper than making a normal canal :S)
11:09:25  <andythe__> Yeah
11:10:10  <Pikkaphone> they're not as good reasons :)
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11:12:51  <Pikkaphone> hum
11:13:05  <Pikkaphone> looks like some rain hereabouts
11:16:48  <andythe__> Beebul
11:16:57  <Pikkaphone> si
11:18:01  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26928 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-27 11:17:54 UTC)
11:18:02  <DorpsGek> -Change: scale the heightmap colours over the whole range of heights (based on patch by ic111)
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12:04:25  <fjb> Moin
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12:09:44  <frosch> quak
12:10:14  <Wolf01> woof
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12:25:36  <qwebirc22871> IRC ... it's been a while. anyone still in here?
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12:27:07  <LordAro> aw
12:27:22  <LordAro> helps if you wait more than 30 seconds...
12:28:26  <^Spike^> no it doesn't....
12:28:33  <^Spike^> you join a channel and need answer within 1 second
12:28:42  <^Spike^> if no-one responds leave! :)
12:28:46  <^Spike^> that's how help channels work :D
12:30:04  <LordAro> :p
12:39:01  <fjb> Reduces the work for the support team.
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12:59:18  <^Spike^> :)
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13:49:48  <MTsPony> lulz
13:52:57  <argoneus> moshi moshi
13:55:38  <Rubidium> ohayou gozaimasu
13:57:41  <argoneus> Rubidium: are you following any chinese cartoons this season?
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14:04:27  <Eddi|zuHause> some decades ago there was a commercial, where a kid hit random numbers on the phone, and then someone in japan answered the phone, and the fee counter exploded. or something
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14:07:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the internet seems to think it was a commercial for some lottery. "if you need money..."
14:07:56  <Rubidium> argoneus: no
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14:49:43  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26929 trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp (2014-09-27 14:49:37 UTC)
14:49:44  <DorpsGek> -Change: accounts for maximum height when filling the height legend of the smallmap
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14:50:41  <peter1138> Might just be easier to make a sea-canal (cheaper than making a normal canal :S)
14:50:44  <peter1138> err
14:50:55  <peter1138> up-arrow enter in wrong window D:
14:51:15  <XeryusTC> hah, openttd is used by my information security teacher as a bad example of using checksums
14:51:40  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26930 trunk/src/table/heightmap_colours.h (2014-09-27 14:51:34 UTC)
14:51:41  <DorpsGek> -Add: extra shadings to he heightmap colour tables (Chillcore)
14:52:05  <Rubidium> XeryusTC: please tell us how it's bad... I'm interested ;)
14:53:05  <peter1138> OMG, MD5, so many collisions!
14:53:34  <XeryusTC> the exercise is on why providing checksums next to downloads is bad
14:53:52  <Rubidium> oh, those checksums
14:54:21  <peter1138> "next to"?
14:54:32  <Rubidium> peter1138: the checksums on the download page of openttd
14:54:35  <XeryusTC>
14:54:42  <XeryusTC> checksums on those pages
14:54:55  <XeryusTC> just found it funny how he used openttd as as example, it is all over the web
14:54:57  <peter1138> Should they be hidden? :p
14:54:58  <Rubidium> why is it bad that the checksums are there?
14:55:15  <peter1138> It's not like that's where the downloads actually come from.
14:55:30  <peter1138> Although the mirror redirect is on the same platform, so...
14:55:39  <Prof_Frink> Because people shouldn't know if their downloads got corrupted.
14:55:49  <XeryusTC> it is probably because if Trudy is able to modify your download then she is also probably able to modify the checksum on the page
14:56:04  <Rubidium> XeryusTC: what other solution is there?
14:56:41  <Rubidium> because if Trudy is able to modify the page, then Trudy is probably also able to mess with the source repository and the build farm
14:57:15  <XeryusTC> I dunno, it is an exercise, i still have to come up with a solution
14:57:20  <Rubidium> likewise the MTA
14:57:36  <Alberth> obviously, removing the checksums is much safer :p
14:57:38  <XeryusTC> Trudy can also intercept the page after it has been transmitted and then modify it
14:57:47  <Prof_Frink> I never saw MD5s as a security thing, just a "Did this download right?" thing.
14:58:13  <Pikka> it is
14:58:27  <XeryusTC> indeed
14:58:29  <Rubidium> XeryusTC: by the same token, Trudy can intercept all traffic and provide a bogus SSL certificate for ANY communication we do
14:58:29  <Prof_Frink> (More important with things like OS images or firmwares than openttd.)
14:58:31  <Pikka> XeryusTC, so the challenge is to come up with a way to detect an omnipotent intruder?
14:58:37  <Rubidium> including mails to mailing lists or whatever
14:58:47  <XeryusTC> Pikka: probably :(
15:00:18  <XeryusTC> Rubidium: very true, but he apparently thinks that this method is meant for security,  not to check if your download got corrupted
15:00:46  <Prof_Frink> Why would he think that, then claim that it isn't?
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15:02:02  <Prof_Frink> You shouldn't use MD5sums because they're not suitable for building bridges.
15:02:11  <Rubidium> our website only claims that if the checksums don't match, it's definitely corrupted or not from the website. It doesn't state that if the checksum matches it definitely came from us
15:02:48  <Rubidium> that's an assumption your teacher made, and making an assumption in information security is IMO a fatal mistake
15:03:27  <Pikka> assumptions make an ass out of u and mption.
15:03:33  <Prof_Frink> s.
15:05:09  <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: Or the script that generates the MD5s for that page fell over.
15:05:58  <XeryusTC> Rubidium: that is true, but it is still the case that a malicious party can foil this method
15:06:27  <Rubidium> XeryusTC: true, just take over the domain... but then they can send mails to mailings lists with signatures as well
15:06:50  <^Spike^> XeryusTC in the end depending on the network setup even someone not even modyfing the ottd page can still make the user show false info even if the checksums are on a different page/server on the other side of the world
15:06:54  <^Spike^> if it becomes a mitm
15:07:04  <^Spike^> so the point the teacher makes seems rather pointless
15:07:19  <^Spike^> cause i can not modify ottd pages and still modify checksums and provide a false file
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15:09:04  <XeryusTC> the point he is trying to make is rather pointless indeed
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15:09:08  <Rubidium> XeryusTC: obviously the only solution is for the downloader to physically come to the person that did the release and built the binary to get the checksums from just after the build as they were written down on a piece of paper. This under the watchful eye of a judge/notary, who then signs everything and commits it to public record.
15:09:18  <^Spike^> ^^^
15:09:21  <^Spike^> got it before me :)
15:09:27  <peter1138> added test: our mirrors also contain checksums
15:09:45  <peter1138> so (somehow) check each mirror agrees
15:10:01  <peter1138> then realise that mirror upload is automated :p
15:10:04  <^Spike^> peter1138 as said that wouldn't matter if it is a mitm for ex depends on which side they are :)
15:10:33  <peter1138> ok let's put it on ssl and assume the user knows how to check for a valid certificate
15:10:36  <^Spike^> if they are on client side then they won't notice if they are just @ one server then yeah mirror checks work :)
15:10:49  <^Spike^> *cough*diginotar*cough*
15:10:49  <Rubidium> in other words, you need to get the checksum in some way that does not contain any black box-y methods of transport, i.e. where you cannot oversee each and every step
15:11:02  <Rubidium> so sending things via snail mail is out as well
15:11:07  <^Spike^> ssl certs are just trust based
15:11:17  <XeryusTC> Rubidium: the safest method is probably to print the code, put it in an envelope and seal it with wax, mail it to the other party (or hand it in person) and have the other party type it into their computer and compile it
15:11:17  <^Spike^> we trust several companies to provide a safe chain
15:11:23  <^Spike^> doesn't mean they also actually do.. :)
15:11:42  <^Spike^> Xaroth you forget: Having the same compile setup :)
15:11:46  <^Spike^> else checksums do not match :D
15:11:49  <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: I think we've just invented the key-exchange problem.
15:11:50  <peter1138> of course not, the ca business is built on a scam
15:11:51  <Rubidium> XeryusTC: the envelope can be intercepted, as such it is not safe
15:11:53  <michi_cc> PGP signatures with a proper web of trust. Of course, if the attacked has access to the server the private keys isn't exactly private anymore either.
15:12:21  <peter1138> so manually sign each an every release. cool.
15:12:35  <XeryusTC> Rubidium: that is where the seal comes in, if it is broken you can definitely say that it has been tampered with
15:12:53  <Rubidium> XeryusTC: but I can just put it in a new enveloppe and reseal it
15:13:13  <Prof_Frink> But that won't have the openttd seal on it.
15:13:23  <^Spike^> can be forged :)
15:13:30  <Rubidium> after all, I intercepted a set of enveloppes, paper, wax and a replacement seal that some office supplier sent to the person doing the printing
15:13:58  <peter1138> safest best, stop distributing anything
15:14:10  <^Spike^> stop using the interwebz... :)
15:15:28  <Rubidium> XeryusTC: but I like to hear your professor's solution, just to poke holes into it ;)
15:15:49  <^Spike^> XeryusTC: and there you have your answer... Teacher your point does not work in any way. I have discussed it with the guys of OpenTTD and there are so many ways you can still forge it no matter what :)
15:15:58  <Prof_Frink> And make sure you include quotes from this conversation in your report.
15:16:04  <^Spike^> :)
15:16:12  <XeryusTC> oh, I will quote this ;)
15:16:41  <^Spike^> heheh
15:17:10  <XeryusTC> Rubidium: he can probably come up with a good solution, although it might indeed involve swapping papers in person
15:17:37  <Rubidium> but how do you know that the person you're swapping with is the real author?
15:17:52  <Rubidium> okay, *you* might know some of them... but your teacher probably not
15:17:55  <Prof_Frink> If you're gonna meet in person, couln't he just give you a disk with the program on it, rather than download the program and meet up for the checksum?
15:20:47  <XeryusTC> Prof_Frink: but how would you then check if your download isn't corrupted?
15:20:48  <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: Doesn't matter even if you know them personally. "We have your family, do what we say and nobody gets harmed..."
15:21:07  <Prof_Frink> It can't be corrupted, because I haven't downloaded anything.
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15:39:17  <Rubidium> Prof_Frink: so... there is NO way to completely ensure there not being a MITM-attack
15:45:23  <Prof_Frink> Sure there is. Don't have a middle to put a man in.
15:46:02  <Prof_Frink> Only use code that you've written yourself, on an OS you've written yourself, with a compiler... you get the idea.
15:46:19  <^Spike^> with computer parts you build yourself? :)
15:46:19  <Rubidium> Prof_Frink: but that doesn't need distributing
15:46:29  <Rubidium> and as such no need to download or have checksums
15:46:57  <Rubidium> thus it's a moot solution for this conundrum
15:47:09  <Prof_Frink> Wait, what was the question?
15:47:53  <Rubidium> essentially to safely distribute files
15:48:13  <Prof_Frink> Safely distribute or safely receive?
15:48:25  <Rubidium> basically both?
15:48:49  <Alberth> sounds like obtaining a unique identity for a MP session
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16:02:14  <XeryusTC> Prof_Frink: apparently distributing files with a checksum next to them on the download page is flawed
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16:05:39  <peter1138> Should be on a different page? :p
16:06:37  <Rubidium> XeryusTC: but the files are downloaded from a different country than those checksums are in ;)
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16:14:11  <peter1138> anyway
16:14:23  <peter1138> why would you trust us with your game
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16:17:46  <Rubidium> what if I were Trudy?
16:19:43  <Prof_Frink> Trudibium?
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16:26:55  <Rubidium> must say TUe's Information security technology website is doing great...
16:27:33  <Rubidium> first link: 404, second link: http://(Computer
16:27:58  <Rubidium> fourth link: 404
16:28:43  <Alberth> :)
16:29:35  <Alberth> it's very safe that way :p
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16:39:11  <andythenorth> o/
16:40:03  <Alberth> \o
16:40:23  <andythenorth> Pikka: so all new road vehicles arrive in same year? o_O
16:43:00  <Pikka> "all"?
16:43:29  <Pikka> if they're ostensibly the same model, I don't see why not. except of course you have the fun random element.
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16:55:43  <andythenorth> the only thing against it is the faff of auto-replace
16:55:50  <andythenorth> but then random will take care of that
16:57:37  <peter1138> Autoreplace isn't a faff. Manually replacing is...
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17:01:53  <andythenorth> well
17:01:54  <andythenorth> yes
17:03:38  <Eddi|zuHause> manual replace is one of the biggest flaws of train fever
17:04:03  <V453000> quite a bad feature
17:04:38  <Alberth> original TTD had that too
17:04:45  <V453000> :P
17:04:50  <MTsPony> Having no multiplayer is :p
17:05:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but you could only have 80 vehicles in total
17:05:19  <MTsPony> Openttd > Fever
17:05:31  <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: why would you need multiplayer in a single player game?
17:05:47  <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: so simcity5>simcity4?
17:05:58  <MTsPony> Ehm. What defines a Multiplayer game? By having multiplayer option ofcourse :p
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17:07:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i played multiplayer in openttd like 3 times over the past 8 years
17:08:02  <MTsPony> Everyone has their own preference.
17:10:47  <andythenorth> meh realisms
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17:11:11  <andythenorth> steam road vehicles hauling stupid amounts IRL
17:11:19  <andythenorth> doesn’t fit vehicle progression
17:12:23  <Alberth> :)
17:12:36  <Alberth> steam RVs were quite powerful
17:12:38  <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: anyway, with a few right improvements, train fever easily surpasses openttd
17:13:10  <V453000> Train Fever has no nuts
17:13:11  <V453000> no way
17:13:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: make them have low speed or ridiculous running costs or something
17:13:35  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what’s better in TF, other than visuals?
17:13:37  <V453000> low speed is boaring
17:13:40  <andythenorth> yeah
17:13:44  <andythenorth> so fakery
17:13:54  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: they used to run quite fast afaik
17:13:55  <MTsPony> Why eddi? Because its fancy 3D?
17:14:02  <andythenorth> it’s just odd finding images with 10 trailers
17:14:10  <andythenorth> behind one engine
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17:15:01  <andythenorth> anyway, Road Hog is drifting quite away from reality :P
17:15:03  <MTsPony> Dunno dude, at first glance I'd say behind the scenes Openttd has way more matured, and comparing the two graphically, thats purely subjective
17:15:17  <Alberth> the true problem was that you'd have to start them up several hours before you could leave
17:15:38  <andythenorth> operating cost o_O
17:15:41  <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: of course a program with as many development hours (or decades) behind it as openttd is "more mature"
17:16:00  <MTsPony> So explain why you think TF surpasses openttd?
17:16:15  <andythenorth> if I was starting a game studio, I would probably have attempted TF
17:16:25  <andythenorth> but maybe with less realisms
17:16:44  <Alberth> while transport tycoon 2013 was just released?
17:17:44  <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: less legacy crap to carry around. and fancy 3D.
17:17:54  <MTsPony> Thus subjective :p
17:18:08  <MTsPony> I prefer the old skool openttd look, probably because of nostalgia :0
17:18:24  <Alberth> the big audience doesn't
17:18:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i
17:18:38  <Eddi|zuHause> 'm sure you can make the models all block-y
17:18:42  <MTsPony> the big audience is bored with train fever a few weeks after purchase.
17:19:20  <MTsPony> usually depth and possibilities >> some fancy looking graphics,
17:19:34  <andythenorth> I think train fever will succeed
17:19:39  <andythenorth> smells of success
17:19:48  <andythenorth> Euro Truck Simulator has gone on and on
17:19:52  <Alberth> they can probably prolong interest if they add new features and improve things
17:19:53  <Eddi|zuHause> that's where the development comes in. the depth and possibilities have to be added now
17:20:05  <MTsPony> Dont think so, they'll probably stop development when they squeezed out most of the money :
17:20:06  <MTsPony> :p
17:20:18  <andythenorth> I think there’s a huge under-served appetite for these sims
17:20:32  <andythenorth> so it’s not Call of Duty or Halo, but still
17:20:47  <Eddi|zuHause> if you were really in it for the money, you'd not attempt such a niche simulation area
17:21:04  <andythenorth> there’s money and there’s money
17:21:24  <andythenorth> SCS seem to be doing OK
17:21:57  <glx> ets2 is not bad
17:22:08  <andythenorth> it’s not exactly EA, but if you can keep cash burn rate at €75k per month

17:22:11  <Alberth> andythenorth: no news for a year? :)
17:22:20  <andythenorth> they tweet stuff
17:22:43  <andythenorth> but yeah, you’re not going to spend a lot on community media stuff if you’re running a lean operation
17:22:44  <glx> and regular ets2 updates
17:22:50  <andythenorth> they’re putting the money into sound effects
17:22:56  <andythenorth> and better overtaking :P
17:23:06  <andythenorth> and hopefully they’ll eventually ship the mac port :P
17:23:12  <glx> videos for sound effects are fun to watch
17:23:26  <andythenorth> yeah
17:23:35  <andythenorth> they crashed trucks and cars
17:23:51  <glx> oh didn't see this one
17:24:07  <glx> only the truck full of mics
17:25:13  <andythenorth> somewhere on their YT probably
17:29:57  <glx> <-- they are crazy
17:30:04  <argoneus> ets2 is fun
17:30:07  <argoneus> especially when you play multiplayer
17:31:20  <argoneus>
17:33:45  <andythenorth> it’s €20 with a €10 expansion pack
17:33:58  <argoneus> jokes on you, I got it for 4 euros
17:34:24  <andythenorth> for ETS 2?
17:34:28  <andythenorth> some bundle?
17:34:30  <argoneus> no
17:34:34  <argoneus> but there are sites that resell steam keys
17:34:36  <argoneus> for cheap
17:34:45  <glx> there's often sales too
17:35:22  <andythenorth> trying to figure out how many staff they have
17:35:41  <argoneus> also thanks openttd
17:35:43  <andythenorth> they’ve built or licensed game engines for third parties, so they probably have residuals from that
17:35:47  <argoneus> you renewed my interest in coding and c++
17:35:48  <Pikka> andythenorth, we should make the best transport game
17:35:51  <Pikka> make millions
17:36:00  <andythenorth> more like thousands
17:36:01  <Pikka> and all the roadtypes you can eat
17:36:04  <andythenorth> all of them
17:36:08  <andythenorth> I’ll code it in python
17:36:11  <andythenorth> it will be slow
17:36:27  <argoneus> imagine
17:36:32  <argoneus> if you could make the same roads like in simcity 4
17:36:45  <andythenorth> I reckon SCS would have to sell 5k units per month full price on ETS 2 to run a viable business
17:36:55  <andythenorth> but their team might be bigger that my guess
17:37:09  <andythenorth> but they also have 8 other games on sale
17:37:10  <argoneus> andythenorth: but ets2 is really popular
17:37:17  <andythenorth> define ‘really popular'
17:37:21  <andythenorth> it’s not angry birds
17:37:23  <argoneus> it had a spike like dayz
17:37:29  <argoneus> when arma 2 was top seller for months
17:37:45  <argoneus> not that high but it had a major spike
17:37:48  <argoneus> and it's a well known game
17:38:16  <Eddi|zuHause> <argoneus> but there are sites that resell steam keys <-- i imagine that the difference is what steam would otherwise keep for themselves, and the programmers get the same money nevertheless
17:38:17  <Pikka> dayz is still a top seller on steam. which is weird, because afaia everyone played the mod and decided it was dreadful about 18 months ago.
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17:40:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i never played any of those
17:41:45  <andythenorth> farming simulator seems to be massive too
17:42:23  <peter1138> my sprites are massive
17:43:32  <Sacro> peter1138: you disturb me very sprites
17:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder if i should play goat simulator :p
17:43:54  <argoneus> no it's a funny meme ex dee game
17:44:03  * peter1138 limits Sacro's sprites
17:44:06  <argoneus> which is "fun" for 10 minutes before you realize all you can do with it is make money if you are a famous youtuber
17:44:12  <argoneus> that's literally it
17:44:29  <V453000> goat simulator was awesome for a couple of minutes :)
17:44:49  <argoneus> even popcorn at cinemas is more cost efficient than goat simulator
17:45:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never ever paid for popcorn at cinemas
17:45:16  <argoneus> V453000: I was wondering, are you a coder / developer as well?
17:45:23  <argoneus> I doubt you can make robust newgrfs with just 3d art skills
17:45:26  <V453000> only newGRFs
17:45:27  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26931 trunk/src/lang/russian.txt (2014-09-27 17:45:18 UTC)
17:45:28  <V453000> I hate coding
17:45:28  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:29  <DorpsGek> russian - 3 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:40  <V453000> well I do "code" newGRFs in NML
17:45:41  <argoneus> hmm
17:45:45  <V453000> which is not really coding
17:45:51  <Eddi|zuHause> well i "hate" coding as well
17:45:55  <V453000> just filling in values with some syntax
17:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> which is why i write code generators :p
17:46:07  <argoneus> filling in values with syntax is coding :D
17:46:17  <argoneus> figuring out what values to fill is programming
17:46:18  <argoneus> :P
17:46:37  <Eddi|zuHause> filling in values with syntax is a great job for a code generator
17:47:09  <argoneus> like this?
17:47:19  <V453000> well then :D coding I do, hate it I do
17:47:50  <argoneus> (take everything I say with a grain of salt, 64% of the time I have no idea what I'm talking about)
17:47:58  <peter1138>
17:48:06  <peter1138> That window on the right isn't working right :S
17:48:17  <V453000> MY EYES DIE
17:48:39  <argoneus> peter1138: what is wrong with the company list guy
17:48:43  <argoneus> he looks angry as fuck
17:48:53  <peter1138> V453000, it's easier to see what's wrong at 4X :)
17:49:09  <V453000> yeah, that is the only thing I use x4 for
17:49:21  <V453000> checking if offsets are fine with nuts :D
17:49:23  <V453000> well now for yeti
17:49:28  <peter1138> If i can make it scale properly at 4x, it'll be good at 2x too, in theory.
17:49:35  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: that's a moustache, not a frowny face :p
17:49:38  <peter1138> argoneus, well, he's had half his face cropped off...
17:51:30  <argoneus> looks like this to me
17:51:38  <argoneus>
17:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> "german military is so underfunded that it couldn't fulfill nato obligations"
17:52:22  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: cross-eyed with bad haircut?
17:52:38  <argoneus> he looks cross eyed
17:52:43  <argoneus> and can't see haircut because tophat
17:53:40  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: the joy of pixel art. things that look really stupid upclose look amazing a bit further away
17:53:47  <andythenorth> peter1138: that is fricking awesome
17:53:53  <andythenorth> my eyes bleed at the font
17:54:04  <andythenorth> finally, I will be able to drop vehicles in the bin easily :P
17:54:24  <andythenorth> and you need a new x
17:54:34  <argoneus> I wonder if it would be possible to implement control groups and viewport hotkeys into openttd
17:54:39  <argoneus> so I could play it like starcraft with 200 apm
17:54:53  <peter1138> andythenorth, it's tricky with your dodgy FISH sprite offsets though :p
17:54:55  <argoneus> and not before long koreans would compete 1vs1 openttd
17:55:09  <andythenorth> peter1138: maybe they need changed :P
17:55:15  * argoneus tries to imagine how that would look like in practice
17:55:22  <andythenorth> the Squid ones are hack for buy menu centering
17:55:35  <andythenorth> I’m not changing the FISH 1 ones, that set is dead
17:56:17  <Eddi|zuHause> was the purchase menu scaling ever included?
17:56:31  <peter1138> I wonder how usuable this 4X is on a 4K displaY? :p
17:57:01  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: implement retina display support :p
17:57:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: your patch that enabled centering is included iirc
17:57:15  <andythenorth> or at least whatever made it difficult is now gone afaict
17:57:32  <andythenorth> oh it was positioning the text iirc
17:57:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. that was part of it
17:58:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever adapted CETS
17:58:19  <peter1138> andythenorth, squid is fine
17:58:28  <andythenorth> hmm, was that patch actually included?
17:58:36  <andythenorth> Squid is doing something clever with widths
17:58:41  <andythenorth> but I think that’s just for centering
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17:58:57  <peter1138> well, other than the sprites being so huge they overlap
17:59:00  <V453000> Eddi, better start learning blender if you want sprites for CETS :D
17:59:06  <andythenorth> voxels
17:59:14  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i tried blender
17:59:15  <Rubidium> peter1138: does that patch come with a 2560 by 1920 monitor as well? ;)
17:59:22  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: it was horrible
17:59:22  <andythenorth> but voxels at 2:1 resolution not 1:1
17:59:26  <V453000> TRY HARDER :D
17:59:33  <V453000> then try 3ds max :)
17:59:39  <andythenorth> he can’t write a model generator
17:59:47  <andythenorth> actually, he probably could
17:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> more chances i adapt pixeltool
18:00:05  <peter1138> Rubidium, :p
18:00:15  <peter1138> Rubidium, as i said, it's easier to see problems that don't manifest at 2x
18:00:20  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i have a "crude" model generator
18:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that at the moment can only generate boxes
18:00:36  <peter1138> Rubidium, like fixed offsets that just happen to be big enough, though should be dynamic
18:00:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: write a procedural model generator
18:01:08  <andythenorth> actually model components - axles, bodies, details
18:01:20  <andythenorth> then use a random generation algorithm
18:01:30  <andythenorth> then get the ‘community’ to tell you which ones are realistic
18:01:34  <andythenorth> like Galaxy Zoo
18:01:43  <andythenorth> and bin the rest
18:01:47  <andythenorth> rinse, repeat
18:01:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you mean like genetic algorithm?
18:03:05  <andythenorth> exactly
18:05:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder if i can make CETS into a TF mod
18:06:31  <andythenorth> well you have a code generator

18:06:38  <andythenorth> aids portability
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18:07:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but is there a TF mod spec?
18:08:34  <andythenorth> join their forums?
18:08:38  <andythenorth>
18:09:25  <andythenorth> lots of mods
18:09:29  <andythenorth> way more than ottd probably
18:10:39  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of mods, but no comprehensive spec?
18:11:14  <andythenorth> not an obvious one
18:11:21  <andythenorth> there are only 5 staff
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18:14:18  <Rubidium> although... I guess we need to introduce two more zoom-in levels. How else would we not get too small icons on 8k (although that is already so 2008)
18:15:37  <Wolf01> <- lol
18:16:52  <andythenorth> I am glad I am not on of the five TF developers
18:17:00  <andythenorth> I would be too angry too often
18:17:56  <andythenorth> they are going to have 200 persistent idiots turning up asking for all the features OTTD can’t do
18:18:03  <andythenorth> and they’ve paid
18:18:32  <andythenorth> and they’ll want to know why feature xyz can’t be done, now that TF is free of OTTD’s ancient messy code
18:19:03  <andythenorth> because everyone knows that 3D graphics implies an endlessly extensible codebase
18:19:09  <andythenorth> with no scaling or performance issues
18:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and anonther 200 that ask for features that OTTD already does?
18:19:23  <andythenorth> that too
18:19:37  <andythenorth> but they’ll spend most of their time fighting performance problems
18:19:38  <andythenorth> and OS X
18:19:48  <andythenorth> whilst frantically trying to add paid DLC so they can make payroll
18:22:19  <andythenorth> also
18:22:27  <andythenorth> when are we going to rewrite OTTD?
18:22:32  <andythenorth> in a proper modern language
18:22:53  <Wolf01> in english?
18:23:05  <Eddi|zuHause> witespace.
18:23:35  <Wolf01> at least brainfuck
18:23:45  <andythenorth> I was thinking PHP
18:23:53  <Wolf01> no, please
18:24:22  <Wolf01> (I'm fighting with a MySQL installation which doesn't work right now)
18:24:27  <Rubidium> obviously in bash. Then you has proper programming from the start; anyone can control your server ;)
18:24:48  <Wolf01> dinner time
18:26:04  <andythenorth> Rubidium: by design
18:26:07  <andythenorth> feature not bug
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18:34:34  <peter1138> andythenorth, pascal
18:34:50  <andythenorth> true
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18:44:56  <peter1138> cool, openttd crashed
18:44:58  <peter1138> by itself
18:49:27  <peter1138> hmm, maybe i was a new ship
18:49:28  <andythenorth> feature
18:49:34  <andythenorth> autonomous crashing
18:49:47  <Alberth> it protested against its rewrite :p
18:52:01  <peter1138> :p
18:52:16  <peter1138> usual assert(min < max)
18:52:21  <peter1138> means a window isn't big enough :p
18:52:35  <peter1138> for andythenorth's massive doobreys
18:53:02  <andythenorth> :(
18:53:29  <Pikka> speaking of which, 3-tile ship lengths are fine, right?
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18:57:41  <andythenorth> yeah totally
18:57:54  <Pikka> splendid
18:58:00  <peter1138> Who cares about overlaps
18:58:07  <andythenorth> how big is a tile? :P
18:58:14  <andythenorth> Squid stops at 140px
18:58:15  <andythenorth> :P
18:58:17  <Pikka> 5400km or something
18:58:18  <Rubidium> ~600 km
18:58:27  <Pikka> depends what you're measuring
18:58:54  * Pikka back some time, if not sooner
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18:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: 1 tile is 16 steps, a step is 4px -, 2px |, 2+1px / or \
19:00:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so 2 tiles - ist 128px
19:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause> -t
19:01:05  * peter1138 zooms Eddi|zuHause out
19:01:47  * Eddi|zuHause is fractal, doesn't change on zoom
19:02:06  <andythenorth> is Eddi|zuHause procedurally generated?
19:02:16  <Rubidium> @calc (4+2+2*sqrt(5))/4
19:02:16  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 2.61803398875
19:02:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes. DNA is very procedural
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19:37:52  <peter1138> ah, the engine preview window...
19:38:08  <peter1138> relies on being wide enough by the text in it, heh
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19:41:50  <andythenorth> yes
19:41:55  <andythenorth> clever eh?
19:44:11  <FUZxxl> peter1138: what does it look when this does not hold?
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19:48:10  <peter1138> a crash
19:49:01  <Eddi|zuHause> that assert should probably be changed to just crop things
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20:02:21  <peter1138> yes, i always change my assert() to crop()
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20:20:20  <Wolf01> 'night
20:20:23  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
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20:39:38  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26932 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2014-09-27 20:39:32 UTC)
20:39:39  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: replace some constants with less weird looking constants and simplify clamping by actually using Clamp
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20:56:05  <Eddi|zuHause> tgp code is probably a source of endless joy :p
21:00:16  <andythenorth> bed
21:00:17  <andythenorth> bye
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21:17:11  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: especially with three kinds of changes interwoven and the person that has done the changes in some cases just stabbing in the dark which constant to modify
21:17:27  <Rubidium> so you have to reason why they changed things in the ways they did
21:18:15  <Rubidium> as a result... piecing things together and splitting a patch
21:18:27  <Rubidium> but... more tomorrow or even later
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21:54:01  <peter1138> Please feel free to rip out the variety stuff and replace it with something sane.
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23:44:53  <argoneus> any idea where I can find how large of a buffer size I need for the admin port to receive?
23:45:05  <argoneus> I'm trying to see if ottd has some upper limit for packet size
23:45:07  <argoneus> but I can't find
23:49:11  <Eddi|zuHause> UDP packages have a maximum size. TCP doesn't
23:49:13  <Supercheese> Check source I guess
23:50:13  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: so when I recv, it receives everything?
23:50:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue how network code actually works
23:50:37  <argoneus> or is there anything more I have to do
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23:59:46  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, even if there was a maximum size defined in openttd code, always assume that the remote partner sends unsafe data

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