Log for #openttd on 1st October 2014:
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01:19:46  <DanMacK> Hey all
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01:30:07  <peter1138> hi
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08:03:50  <planetmaker> moin
08:04:20  <peter1138> hi
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08:55:15  <__ln__>
08:59:40  <peter1138> :)
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09:02:08  <fjb> Moin
09:03:05  <fjb> __ln__: Obviously working perfectly.
09:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe that's the actual point?
09:07:32  <Xaroth|Work> it's a metaphor; one side will have to give for it to work
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09:08:32  <fjb> I think it is quite realistic, sometimes.
09:09:14  <peter1138> Shhh, don't use that word.
09:09:33  <Xaroth|Work> << idea for an oil/fuel truck grf.
09:09:50  <V453000> tanks peter1138 , will try
09:09:58  <V453000> da alignor
09:10:28  <peter1138> Xaroth|Work, that is rather weird looking...
09:10:44  <peter1138> Also, false colour.
09:10:44  <Xaroth|Work>
09:10:50  <Xaroth|Work> it's a colourized image
09:10:50  <lastmikoi> that looks weird
09:11:01  <Xaroth|Work> 6 ever built, apparently
09:14:17  <planetmaker> <-- better use a gear like that than shown in that ad, __ln__ ;)
09:14:28  <planetmaker> no real motion either, but at least it looks like :P
09:16:58  <peter1138> Such torque
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10:26:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i always wonder what must go through these designers' heads... "we need something technical. gears sound good"... "we need something dynamic. three is a very dynamic number"
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10:32:16  <SHOTbyGUN> does "symmetrical" make cargodist generate passengers like double rate?
10:33:04  <planetmaker> generation is independent of distribution
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10:35:37  <peter1138> Meh, I wanna fix up TGP again :S
10:39:18  <fjb> What is TGP?
10:39:43  <planetmaker> terrain generator
10:39:50  <planetmaker> (of openttd)
10:40:30  <fjb> Ah. What is wrong with it?
10:41:06  <peter1138> It's not OO ;)
10:41:45  <fjb> Very wrong then.
10:41:56  <peter1138> I can do "variety distribution" much better if its abstracted out so that I can have any number of heightmaps during generation.
10:42:07  <peter1138> *it's
10:42:57  <fjb> I always scare my coworkers with OO.
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10:46:19  <planetmaker> variety distribution was also your addition, was it, peter1138 ?
10:47:04  <planetmaker> even when it's scewed on maps with huge aspect ratio, it's a very nice thing to give... well... variety :P
10:47:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's a very useful feature
10:47:47  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't mean its implementation is good :)
10:48:37  <V453000> if it didnt make the map 100% flat on majority of it, it would be nice
10:48:55  <planetmaker> V453000, it doesn't with the proper other settings
10:49:18  <V453000> it makes a lot more flat areas than without it
10:49:20  <planetmaker> I'd not use it, if it did
10:49:23  <peter1138> planetmaker, yes, exactly, I can do it better.
10:49:37  <planetmaker> yes, it makes some flat areas. That's the purpose
10:49:49  <peter1138> V453000, yes, that's the problem. It's crap :p
10:49:55  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: maybe just start from scratch?
10:50:12  <argoneus_> hello train people
10:50:12  <planetmaker> and re-define the meaning of variety distribution
10:51:00  <peter1138> Also I saw a tectonic simulation done in JS... wondering about porting that.
10:51:20  <peter1138> Probably horribly slow, but if JS can do it...
10:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> terrain generation doesn't have to be particularly fast
10:51:57  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a tectonic generator for Civ IV
10:51:59  <peter1138> No, which is why TGP's optimisations are weird.
10:52:19  <Eddi|zuHause> (which means python)
10:52:32  <peter1138> It also doesn't need to be hooked so closely to the map code. You can just generate a heightmap and use the heightmap importer internally...
10:52:45  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:53:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to add river generation to TGP once, but it was impractical
10:53:24  <Eddi|zuHause> because river placement is too restrictive
10:53:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and terraforming was weird
10:53:36  <Rubidium> peter1138: can you also make the rest of TGP then work for higher maps? ;)
10:53:50  <peter1138> Who knows, maybe :-)
10:54:02  <peter1138> TGP fails with lots of water.
10:54:30  <peter1138> When I want 67% water, I want a few big landmasses, a big ocean, and some reasonable lakes
10:54:32  <Rubidium> <- you'll need that to test with higherlevels
10:55:04  <peter1138> Instead it you... water and small impractical islands everywhere.
10:55:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's what i meant with "too uniform on large scale". instead of big clumps, you get lots of small clumps
10:55:08  <peter1138> ...
10:55:10  <peter1138> Instead, you get...
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10:55:53  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yes. With a decent variety distribution, it's possible. Not perfect though.
10:56:32  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should start with a larger initial wiggle?
10:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause> like a wave frequency that is larger than the map size
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11:01:40  <peter1138> Other things you can do with a heightmap: treat it as a binary field with some threshold. If true, place a tree at this spot. Gives you clumps of trees you can call forests, and bare plain areas.
11:02:13  <peter1138> Well, doesn't even need to be binary, as we can have more than one tree on a tile, but still.
11:02:32  <peter1138> I'm not sure what the improved tree algorithm is.
11:02:39  <peter1138> Seems to just be random.
11:02:58  <peter1138> In fact the original algorithm already gave clumps.
11:03:10  <peter1138> So "improved" really isn't.
11:03:56  <peter1138> Is that option anything to do with generation, or does it just affect the tile loop tree process?
11:04:05  <Eddi|zuHause> never quite understood what that even does
11:04:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's just the initial generation
11:05:40  <peter1138> Grr, mobile phone tickling my speakers :(
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11:44:50  <planetmaker> peter1138, when I want much water, an island map is something which can be very enjoyable, too
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11:46:44  <peter1138> planetmaker, I mainly mean on something like a 2048x2048 map :)
11:47:01  <planetmaker> :)
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11:47:51  <peter1138> Still applies to normal size maps, just not so extreme.
11:47:51  <planetmaker> probably like some equal distribution over a logarithmic size scale or similar
11:49:32  <peter1138> And then TGP's sea-erosion algorithm... is only applied to the edge of the map...
11:50:31  <planetmaker> historical raisins in the tgp pie
11:50:55  <Pikka> pining for the fjords
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11:52:29  <peter1138> Gah, stupid having ideas while I'm at work :(
11:52:47  <peter1138> :S
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11:54:50  <peter1138> "I have to change players to the owner of that airport, and then un close it." < so... using a patch of some sort?
11:55:17  <planetmaker> spring patch pack. He writes it
11:55:42  <peter1138> Hmm, somehow missed that line.
11:55:52  <planetmaker> somewhat aged, desync-buggy patch pack
11:57:34  <planetmaker> however even 1.4.3 there seems to be still a desync issue at times. But I didn't get any data for that yet
11:58:26  <peter1138> Hmm, he already posted into that thread a month ago...
11:58:46  <planetmaker> it's also not exactly maintained anymore :)
11:59:52  <planetmaker> I shouldn't say "any data". But the savegames, and especially the starting savegame is missing. command log along is insufficient, I recon
12:02:04  <peter1138> Not had any problems with my server game yet.
12:02:10  <peter1138> Not using any NewGRFs though.
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12:12:13  <planetmaker> I didn't see it on my servers, but on the reddit ones. So it obviously requires some special setup
12:12:23  <planetmaker> some settings which neither you nor me use
12:12:27  <peter1138> They probably have some patch :p
12:12:39  <planetmaker> supposedly not on those two servers
12:13:03  <planetmaker> it's a rare desync but it happens occasionally. Like once per day or so
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14:23:13  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: there's nothing (anymore) that prevents you from using a large initial "wiggle"
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14:34:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but the smoothing (or sharpening) of hill tops is probably worth an additional parameter
14:35:17  <Rubidium> well, as I understand TGP now it's just a series of waves with different amplitudes and frequencies added together
14:35:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. and then there's some weird "sine transformation" on top of that
14:35:43  <Rubidium> with a higher low frequency wave and lower high frequency wave you get smooth maps
14:36:09  <Rubidium> with lower low frequency and (especially) higher high frequency waves you get more rugged maps (more/higher peaks)
14:37:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and this sine transformation, as far as i understand, was meant to cut off the pointy hill-tops, to map them into openttd's limited height space
14:37:50  <Rubidium> hmm... yeah, it does some weird stuff
14:37:59  <Eddi|zuHause> whereas with an "alpinist" setting, you'd want the opposite effect. hills should be more pointy
14:38:15  <Rubidium> though tropic is different from arctic which are different from toyland and temperate
14:43:29  <argoneus> when the game desyncs
14:43:36  <argoneus> is it the server telling the players "YOU ARE WRONG" and kicking them?
14:44:12  <Rubidium> does it matter who tells who is wrong?
14:44:26  <argoneus> yes
14:44:31  <Rubidium> why?
14:44:32  <argoneus> the clients shouldn't be able to correct the server
14:44:42  <argoneus> see: memory editing
14:45:11  <Rubidium> well, the clients are always wrong. Whether it's the server or the client that comes to that conclusion shouldn't matter
14:45:40  <argoneus> I see servers are the opposite of restaurants
14:45:44  <argoneus> "the customer is always wrong"
14:46:48  <Rubidium> well, it doesn't say "wrong"; they come to the conclusion that they have a different view of the game state
14:46:59  <V453000> LOL
14:47:53  <planetmaker> they basically started playing different games. Thus the server says "please, then play on your own" :)
14:47:59  <blathijs> And technically, the server doesn't even care if the client is right or wrong, since it just takes (and validates) commands from the client, it doesn't allow directly modifying the game state
14:48:02  <planetmaker> very kindly :P
14:48:19  <planetmaker> psst, blathijs :)
14:48:29  <V453000> in short the server says fuck off
14:48:36  <V453000> very quickly
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14:50:01  <planetmaker> now you scared him, V453000 ! ;)
14:50:22  <argoneus> I never really understood netcode in games
14:50:26  <argoneus> especially things like prediction
14:50:30  <argoneus> or interpolation or whatever
14:50:44  <argoneus> doesn't the game have to do a full sync once in a while to figure out there's a desync?
14:50:55  <planetmaker> no
14:50:56  <argoneus> like every 10 commands say "okay, I think you have this much money"
14:51:03  <argoneus> "n-no I have 500 billion, I s-s-swear!!"
14:51:19  <planetmaker> and yes, it does these kind of checks
14:51:33  <peter1138> there's no prediction or interpolation in ottd
14:51:36  <blathijs> argoneus: Sortof, instead OpenTTD summarizes the entire gamestate into a single number and compares just that
14:51:47  <planetmaker> but it doesn't mean that the client will be updated if he disagrees. It will simply be kicked
14:51:49  <argoneus> ahh, so it's comparing a checksum
14:52:16  <blathijs> argoneus: Well, it's really the random number generator state, but it's essentially a checksum, yes
14:52:38  <argoneus> but this doesn't work with games that re-sync, does it?
14:52:55  <argoneus> since you can't reverse figure out which part is wrong from a single number
14:52:57  <argoneus> and have to resync everything
14:53:08  <planetmaker> OpenTTD does not sync. Both client and server do the *exact same thing*. they just occasionally compare what they have
14:53:32  <blathijs> argoneus: Yeah, other games use other techniques
14:53:51  <argoneus> well, it makes sense in openttd
14:54:03  <argoneus> it doesn't matter if you get desynced which is rare in this game anyway since oyu just rejoin
14:54:10  <frosch123> <- some blabla on the topic
14:54:10  <argoneus> I guess this wouldn't really work for fighting games though
14:54:24  <peter1138> any desync in ottd is a bug
14:54:45  <argoneus> but I don't understand
14:54:55  <Rubidium> argoneus: for a FPS there is a really limited game state; a few players with X, Y, Z and maybe some rotations and some flying objects. For OpenTTD you got thousands and thousands of vehicles moving around, all with their own "mind"
14:54:56  <argoneus> if I temporarily unplug my internet, shouldn't I desync? I don't receive commands from the server in time
14:55:21  <blathijs> argoneus: TCP just resends the missing packets when you plug back in
14:55:36  <argoneus> but my game was paused meanwhile, while the server was still going, no?
14:55:42  <argoneus> so if I start the commands later, I will be delayed
14:55:47  <argoneus> (well obviously I won't, but why?"
14:55:53  <blathijs> argoneus: All commands include a timestamp
14:55:57  <argoneus> ahh
14:55:57  <Rubidium> argoneus: you won't desync because of that because you are not progressing in the game while not getting the 'okay, progress to moment X'
14:55:57  <blathijs> Or rather, a tick number
14:55:59  <peter1138> the connection broke, that's a broken connection, not a desync
14:56:05  <argoneus> so my game stealthily simulates the missing link?
14:56:37  <argoneus> I haven't really ever dropped, so I am not sure if my trains suddenly go hyper speed to catch up
14:56:40  <Rubidium> also, lagging behind is not desyncing
14:56:45  <blathijs> argoneus: I think it might just assume nothing happens for a while, and then once it gets the missing info, it just updates the state as if things happened in the past?
14:57:04  <argoneus> so it just quickly simulates the game from that point forwards
14:57:12  <argoneus> until the present
14:57:25  <blathijs> Hm, I'm actually not sure about this part. I don't think the game simulation can back up
14:57:40  <Rubidium> it's simple
14:57:45  <blathijs> so that means the server needs to send updates all the time, even when nothing happens
14:57:58  <Rubidium> the server sends a message every X amount of time: you may progress to tick X
14:58:01  <blathijs> so clients now it's safe to simulate a few more ticks
14:58:04  <blathijs> right
14:58:16  <Rubidium> then the client will progress to that tick
14:58:26  <V453000> why did I read dick
14:58:27  <argoneus> so if my connection lags, my game will go more quickly for a while?
14:58:35  <argoneus> until I am at the correct tick
14:58:40  <Rubidium> yes
14:59:20  <Rubidium> the server will always send the commands that need to happen before it sends that you may progress to tick X; it will actually say all those commands need to be executed at tick X. The server itself will also only execute the command at tick X
14:59:50  <argoneus> ah
15:00:04  <Rubidium> and given TCP, the "progress to tick X" will always be received by OpenTTD *after* the commands
15:00:26  <argoneus> does TCP guarantee order sent - order received?
15:00:34  <Rubidium> yes
15:00:52  <argoneus> I still can't grasp how some games get away with UDP
15:01:06  <argoneus> though when you have 100 tick servers, it doesn't matter if the client drops one or two packets, you can just re-sync
15:01:10  <Rubidium> well... it does guarantee: order application sent == order application receives (what happens in between is essentially a black box where anything might happen)
15:01:12  <blathijs> argoneus: Probably by also sending over the game state frequently
15:01:55  <Rubidium> argoneus: the game state of those games is probably so small that is can fit within a single packet
15:02:03  <Rubidium> so it will just sent new game states
15:02:11  <argoneus> I wonder how games like left 4 dead sync
15:02:16  <Rubidium> game state missed? Too bad, just wait for the next one
15:02:18  <argoneus> must be robust netcoding
15:02:37  <Rubidium> game state received out of order? Oh, I already got a newer state... ignore that old one
15:03:04  <peter1138> argoneus, sniff the packets and find out
15:03:28  <peter1138> in that sort of game, it only matters that things are roughly in the right place at the right time.
15:03:41  <peter1138> if you estimate and predict you get it right most of the time
15:04:16  <argoneus> I guess the scope of that is beyond an irc channel explanation
15:04:17  <argoneus> :D
15:04:26  <peter1138> in a strategy game like ottd every single tiny detail must be 100% exactly the same, but because the server is effectively a master clock, well, they are the same.
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15:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> <argoneus> I guess this wouldn't really work for fighting games though <-- yes, because the latency between the client telling the server "i want to do X" and the server telling the client "yes, you can do X" will quickly kill you.
15:17:12  <Eddi|zuHause> instead, the client says "ok, the server will *probably* allow me to do X"
15:17:39  <argoneus> so prediction means the client sends the command and does it because it thinks it's fine?
15:17:46  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:18:11  <argoneus> ohh
15:18:25  <Eddi|zuHause> and the other part of prediction is the server guessing "when the client recieves my answer, he will probably be around here"
15:20:03  <argoneus> oh
15:20:08  <argoneus> so the server has to compensate for latency too?
15:20:11  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:20:52  <peter1138> I remember original net-quake didn't do prediction. It was a horrible lag-fest.
15:21:14  <peter1138> We were also using 33k modems in those days of course.
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15:53:57  <SHOTbyGUN> what is the purpose of the aircraft range in Aviators Aircraft Set? (mean time between failures or it gets lost or what) ?
15:54:13  <Pikka> the purpose is to be a BAD FEATURE
15:54:51  <Pikka> if you're asking how it works, you can't give planes orders to fly further than their maximum range
15:57:51  <SHOTbyGUN> perfect answer thanks
15:58:30  <planetmaker> teheh.
16:01:57  <Pinkbeast> SHOTbyGUN: Provides an extra means of differentiating vehicles, which aircraft are particularly bad at.
16:02:22  <Pikka> av9.8 solved that problem better, I think. :)
16:05:22  <Pinkbeast> I'd not say no to steam locomotives getting a water-based range (and addition of troughs, etc) but then I'm odd
16:07:18  <SHOTbyGUN> Pikka what is av9.8 ? I see it on the BaNaNas but no website / documentation, nothing
16:07:34  <Pikka> it's an aircraft set
16:07:54  <Pikka> it's basically the aircraft for pineapple aircraft, which I'll be doing in 32bpp/ez
16:08:02  <Pikka> but just with av8 graphics as placeholders for now
16:08:44  <Pikka> it has far fewer aircraft than av8, and they're fictional aircraft
16:08:56  <Pikka> so it's probably not for everyone. but for gameplay, it's good. :)
16:09:05  <Pikka> and it doesn't have limited aircraft ranges. :)
16:09:05  <SHOTbyGUN> ok :o
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16:18:11  <Pikka> as far as openttd goes, there's no difference between "no" and "should be zero"  in this list -> , right?
16:18:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. "should be 0" means "might be implemented at some point"
16:20:04  <Eddi|zuHause> meaning "legacy newgrfs will break/show unwanted effects if non-zero"
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16:41:22  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: vs (both with same seed and settings)
16:41:47  <Rubidium> only due to the different landscape the towns will be in a different location
16:43:06  <Rubidium> to me the "with sine" gives more height to me map
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16:44:30  <Rubidium> but more rugged edges and less flat planes can be seen without the sine
16:45:15  <Rubidium> although variety distribution is messing about with sines and such too
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16:51:33  <Eddi|zuHause> difficult to see the differences
16:53:08  <peter1138> turn off VD. nobody wants VD.
16:57:45  * peter1138 ponders deleting his full gopher archive.
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16:59:32  <Rubidium> you still use port 70?
17:01:10  <argoneus> wait
17:01:13  <argoneus> is variety distribution bad?
17:02:20  <Eddi|zuHause> no
17:02:24  <Eddi|zuHause> just terrible
17:02:33  <argoneus> isn't bad a subset of terrible
17:02:39  <argoneus> er, the other way around
17:02:41  <Eddi|zuHause> when you don't use square maps
17:03:36  <Rubidium> why?
17:04:31  <Eddi|zuHause> it squishes everything
17:04:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so you get long stretched mountains along the longer side
17:04:56  <Rubidium> ah
17:05:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and no mountains that cross along the shorter side
17:05:26  <argoneus> someone should just make a button
17:05:33  <argoneus> "generate good, interesting map"
17:05:36  <Sylf> variety distribution just give patches of flat land, and some people think it makes the map too flat.
17:05:38  *** DabuYu [DabuYu@] has joined #openttd
17:06:00  <Sylf> but other people love to have those patches of flat lands
17:06:18  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: might that be what the MHL patch for that function is about?
17:06:24  <peter1138> VD was only tested with mostly square maps.
17:06:25  <V453000> copypaste everything to flat terrain
17:06:28  <V453000> great game, much creativity
17:06:43  <peter1138> bah, where's my perlin patches
17:06:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no idea
17:07:05  <Rubidium> nah, it does totally remove variety
17:08:28  <FLHerne> I tried using my diamond-square implementation to generate heightmaps with different parameters, but it doesn't really work for OTTD :-(
17:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: proper "alpinist" may need cliffs and stuff, otherwise most terrain effects get squashed by the "make the mountain smooth enough for 1 heightlevel change per tile" function
17:09:06  <FLHerne> Good for interesting continent/coastline shapes,  but too uniform to do nice mountains
17:09:33  <argoneus> importing dwarf fortress maps into openttd when
17:09:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: which may be what the "i can't get mountains up to 255" be about
17:11:30  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: not really; MHL limits the max height based on MapLogX and MapLogY and some other things
17:11:33  <peter1138> Hmm, found it.
17:11:39  <peter1138> in "trunk2" obviously
17:12:16  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause:
17:12:19  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well, "trunk_clean" is obviously a big lie :p
17:13:18  <argoneus> when the map reaches end year, it restarts the same map or generates a new one?
17:18:29  <Jiinxs> In theory, when I select that they are gonna replace a vehicle they should drive to a depot and get replace, even is the car is not "old"?
17:19:08  <argoneus> Jiinxs: I think at the end of their service interval
17:19:09  <argoneus> they go replace
17:19:23  <Jiinxs> okey
17:20:36  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 4096/48
17:20:36  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 85.3333333333
17:20:54  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound quite right
17:21:00  <Eddi|zuHause> am i misunderstanding stuff?
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17:27:03  <Wolf01> hello o/
17:36:46  <__ln__> salve Wolf01, come sta?
17:37:13  <Wolf01> tired, and you?
17:37:47  <__ln__> non c'Ú male
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17:45:54  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26944 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt spanish.txt) (2014-10-01 17:45:44 UTC)
17:45:55  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:56  <DorpsGek> czech - 74 changes by djst
17:45:57  <DorpsGek> spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
17:48:59  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: <- that seems to help for me; not in all cases, e.g. 64x4096 with low variety just gets variety over the long edge, not the short one at all
17:49:24  <Rubidium> but anything with less than 4 orders and some variety should get fairly square blocks
17:50:09  <Rubidium> also fixes an issue where the first 1.5 block worth of tiles were seen as 1 block (at the northern border)
17:52:44  <peter1138> bin it :p
17:59:29  <__ln__>
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18:04:44  <frosch123> __ln__: ms is actually being taken over by apple, and it will be called windows X
18:10:10  <Rubidium> that reason is just bollocks
18:10:19  <argoneus> is it possible to create my own currency in ttd?
18:10:23  <argoneus> I want to buy trains with bitcoins
18:10:35  <Rubidium> because 10 is still less than 95, 98 and 2000
18:11:25  <frosch123> Rubidium: average guy may still be confused about talking about win9 and win9x
18:11:32  <frosch123> though, who talks about win9x? :p
18:12:32  <frosch123> so, let's just hope we do not get any bug reports, that the 9x ottd version does not run on 9
18:17:42  <Supercheese> argoneus: Currency option -> Custom
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18:33:06  <fjb> Why using a number at all? Why not using a bright name again like Windows Vista, e.g. Windows Sun.
18:34:22  <frosch123> they are just on a mission to spread the knowledge about nonal numbers
18:36:35  <fjb> Ok, I see. Microsoft educates the world.
18:37:18  <andythenorth> o/
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18:39:37  <NGC3982> Oh hai.
18:40:04  <NGC3982> 1.4.3 is as with the usual updates nice and tidy.
18:43:28  <fjb> Moin NGC3982
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19:19:53  <__ln__> @calc 0/0
19:19:53  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Error: float division
19:20:12  <__ln__> DorpsGek: integer division you silly
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19:21:09  <andythenorth> Pikka bob lo
19:22:21  <Pikka> si
19:22:24  <Pikka> sup?
19:22:47  <andythenorth> sky
19:22:51  <andythenorth> planes
19:23:04  <andythenorth> managed to offload UKRS2?
19:23:33  <Pikka> apparently
19:23:55  <Pikka> I assume it will become the base of the BRSet episode 59
19:24:56  <Pikka> although since Leanden "knows next to nothing about coding" I won't hold my breath
19:25:04  <andythenorth> maybe can learn
19:25:07  <Eddi|zuHause> excuse me if i don't have a lot of hope that Leanden will produce anything constructive
19:25:10  <andythenorth> I know next to nothing about coding either
19:25:19  <Pikka> well
19:25:26  <Pikka> there's quite a lot of space next to nothing
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19:25:49  <andythenorth> is true fact
19:25:55  <Pikka> I mean
19:25:58  <Pikka> a wide specturm
19:26:02  <Pikka> and spectrum
19:26:03  <andythenorth> will I pixels?
19:26:06  <andythenorth> been awake since 3am
19:26:08  <Pikka> of next-to-nothingness
19:26:15  <Pikka> I don't know, will you?
19:26:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i don't know if you followed anything else Leanden has ever started... :p
19:27:18  <Pikka> I'm aware that his diplomatic skills when dealing with collaborators are somewhat OzTransesque, Eddi|zuHause
19:27:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the difference is that OzTrans actually produced somewhat presentable NewGRFs
19:28:15  <Pikka> well
19:28:20  <Pikka> like I said, I won't hold my breath
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19:28:37  <Pikka> meanwhile, I'll plod on with this NARS recode...
19:29:06  <andythenorth> \o/
19:29:38  <andythenorth> “at last, a NARS to be proud of"
19:29:44  * andythenorth la la la
19:32:37  <Pikka> also, as far as the control cars and reversing consists go
19:32:42  <Pikka> I suppose it's not that bad a feature
19:32:53  <Pikka> but there's a significant degree to which I can't be bothered
19:36:48  <andythenorth> +1
19:37:28  <andythenorth> engine flipping?
19:38:13  <Pikka> only for switchers
19:38:31  <andythenorth> what about player flip?
19:38:38  <Pikka> yes, player flipping
19:39:19  <andythenorth> IH will probably make you build covered wagons (F units) in groups of 3 or 4
19:39:25  <andythenorth> btw
19:39:27  <andythenorth> just saying
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19:39:53  <andythenorth> NARS players would hate that :)
19:40:27  <Pikka> the way I've done it is that I have an A if it's at the front of a set facing forwards, or the back of a set facing backwards, and a B otherwise. But I suppose you can't do player-flipping with your crazy 3-part vehicles. :)
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19:51:09  <andythenorth> nope :)
19:51:43  <andythenorth> also who’s ever going to build a single covered wagon?
19:51:55  <andythenorth> assuming there’s also switcher available
19:52:11  <Pikka> true
19:52:32  <andythenorth> but someone would complain :)
19:52:33  <Pikka> for the original incarnation of 10cc, I was going to build Fs as A+B
19:52:53  <frosch123> night
19:52:56  <andythenorth> bye FreeZeee
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19:52:58  <andythenorth> balls
19:53:04  <andythenorth> wrong auto-complete :P
19:53:04  <Pikka> him too
19:53:15  <Pikka> half the locos done, half to go
19:53:21  <Pikka> + the wogans
19:53:32  <andythenorth> how lovely
19:53:39  <andythenorth> do like a bit of NARS
19:53:42  <Pikka> if you like that sort of thing
19:53:47  <Pikka> which apparently you do
19:53:54  <andythenorth> apparently
19:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> your autocomplete doesn't try the last person to speak first?
19:53:59  <andythenorth> nearly as good as canset :)
19:54:31  <Pikka> something about damned by faint praise :P
19:54:47  <andythenorth> nobody knows when I”m serious :(
19:54:52  * andythenorth wonders why
19:55:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you were ever serious?
19:55:20  <Pikka> maybe they do, you just don't know when /they're/ serious.
19:55:30  <andythenorth> I don’t even know they’re real tbh
19:55:40  <andythenorth> hmm
19:55:48  <andythenorth> can haz drawing a curtain flat thing
19:55:53  <Pikka> How Can Our Trains Be Real If Our Pixels Aren't Real
19:55:53  <andythenorth> spose I could try that
19:56:05  <andythenorth> Deep Philosophy
19:56:14  <Pikka> the capitals make it deeper
19:56:33  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have trouble deciding what's real and what not, don't try an oculus rift :p
19:56:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Capitals make Things easier if you capitalize Nouns
19:58:13  <V453000> NO :D
19:58:53  <Eddi|zuHause> "no" is not a noun :p
20:03:36  <andythenorth> still no crocs in BNE?
20:03:52  <Pikka> only on the feet of the unfashionable
20:05:01  <Eddi|zuHause> "branch if not equal"?
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20:08:18  <andythenorth> need to draw one of these businesses
20:08:47  <Pikka> so what's stopping you?
20:08:51  <andythenorth> inertia
20:09:02  <andythenorth> I have one of these to build it from
20:09:04  <andythenorth> so realisms
20:10:03  <andythenorth> is it bedtimes?
20:10:17  <Pikka> mebe
20:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> not even close
20:10:27  <Pikka> or it might be coffeetimes
20:10:56  <andythenorth> I have reach Peak Coffee
20:10:59  <andythenorth> it stops working
20:14:16  <Pikka> hmm
20:14:17  <Pikka> whell
20:14:19  <Pikka> whell?
20:14:21  <Pikka> well
20:14:29  <Pikka> I'm going to coffee on regardless
20:14:36  <andythenorth> I admire your resolve
20:14:47  <Pikka> is it showing?
20:15:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no use for coffee...
20:15:05  <Pikka> must be the heat
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20:16:27  <andythenorth> probably the humidity
20:16:51  <andythenorth> hmm
20:17:27  <andythenorth> 3 new trucks, 2 hoverzeppelins, and a tanker for carrying wine to sea
20:17:31  <andythenorth> must be christmas soon
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20:30:49  <argoneus> oi
20:30:52  <argoneus> there's openttd for android?
20:31:08  <FLHerne> argoneus: Pelya's unofficial port
20:31:19  <argoneus> I guess I'd need a big tablet for that though
20:31:25  <argoneus> and wirhout hotkeys it might be painful
20:32:22  <Pikka> hooray for hoverzellepins and wine tankers
20:34:16  <andythenorth> unless christmas gets cancelled
20:35:01  <andythenorth> so umm
20:35:07  <andythenorth> upgrading vehicle stats, still BAD?
20:35:40  <Pikka> I think so
20:36:00  <Pikka> the bigger the upgrade, the WORSE. and if it's not a big upgrade, it's pointless.
20:36:23  <Pikka> I can't think of any reason you'd want to do it besides realisms.
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20:39:38  <andythenorth> lazy
20:39:45  <argoneus> what the hell
20:39:48  <argoneus> why does reddit have its own client
20:39:56  <andythenorth> build a train once, upgrades every 25 years when it goes to depot
20:39:57  <argoneus> pff
20:39:58  <andythenorth> ‘refurb'
20:40:18  <andythenorth> magic train
20:47:27  <Sylf> reddit uses some patches like day length mod
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20:49:34  <argoneus> oh
20:49:52  <argoneus> doesn't day length change a lot?
20:49:58  <argoneus> even things like maintenance / pay
20:52:21  <FLHerne> argoneus: Reddit client with the settings they use is nigh-impossible. But fun :P
20:52:28  <FLHerne> argoneus: #/r/openttd
20:52:37  <FLHerne> Is the IRC channel
20:52:53  <argoneus> nigh impossible?
20:53:54  <Wolf01> 'night all
20:54:00  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
20:54:38  <peter1138> Heh, in 20 years of using IRC, I've never seen a / in a channel name.
20:56:11  <argoneus> ^
20:56:14  <argoneus> FLHerne: why is it hard? :<
20:57:42  <FLHerne> argoneus: Insane costs, tiny payments, slow production increases
20:57:57  <Eddi|zuHause> certainly the link parser doesn't think it's valid
20:58:25  <argoneus> oh
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20:58:33  <FLHerne> peter1138: Seems to be a reddit thing - snoonet has quite a few channels named like that
20:59:34  <FLHerne> ^ I'm sure it did, but now I can't find any :P
21:04:18  <argoneus> ugh
21:04:21  <argoneus> I can't find a server I would like
21:04:38  <argoneus> they all have red flags for me
21:05:18  <FLHerne> argoneus: Reddit 3 is nice, or 1 is they have grfs I hate :P
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21:05:36  <argoneus> FLHerne: 1 is vanilla, 3 has nopeople
21:06:33  <FLHerne> argoneus: What date is S3? It's usually fairly busy except in the 2100s
21:06:39  <argoneus> 1986
21:06:41  <argoneus> one person online
21:06:48  <FLHerne> That seems strange
21:07:22  <andythenorth> also bed time
21:07:23  <andythenorth> bye
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21:07:27  <argoneus> b-... ok
21:10:38  <argoneus> I joined a server to see some interesting designs I could learn from
21:10:50  <argoneus> this is certainly interesting
21:11:43  <FLHerne> argoneus: Please don't copy the vastly-redundant wrong-side path signals, those are hideous
21:11:57  <argoneus> FLHerne: ikr
21:12:50  <argoneus> lol
21:12:56  <argoneus> his maintenance is 10 mil pounds per year for signals only
21:13:02  <argoneus> 1 mil for railways
21:13:08  <FLHerne> AAAAA
21:13:34  <argoneus> why do these servers have such huge maps
21:13:37  <argoneus> I just want to compete with people
21:13:42  <argoneus> and fill the entire map with railroads
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21:19:57  <argoneus> FLHerne: do people play S3 then?
21:20:46  <FLHerne> argoneus: I do, when I have a couple of contiguous hours to spare and especially if it's UK grfs
21:20:53  <argoneus> FLHerne: the GRFs change?
21:20:56  <FLHerne> argoneus: It can be quite busy at times
21:21:03  <argoneus> how busy is busy?
21:21:06  <argoneus> 4+ people?
21:22:32  <FLHerne> argoneus: Several weekends there've been 8 or so people active, 3-6 is more usual
21:23:02  <argoneus> oh nice
21:23:08  <argoneus> is this in EU or US times usually?
21:23:45  <argoneus> also, why do people like NARS / UKRS?
21:23:50  <argoneus> the different length trains are killing me
21:23:58  <argoneus> it's tedious as fuck to replace trains, esp. if you need to add engines
21:24:13  <peter1138> UKRS2 is frikkin awesome
21:24:29  <peter1138> and replacing trains is hardly the main aim of the game
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21:24:53  <peter1138> FLHerne, ew, station spread is way too high :S
21:25:36  <FLHerne> argoneus: That's a 'lack of template-replacement' problem, not a newgrf one :P
21:25:55  <argoneus> it irks me
21:26:00  <FLHerne> There was a patch for that that was really nice to use, but buggy as hell :-(
21:26:02  <argoneus> NUTS best set ever
21:26:17  <FLHerne> argoneus: No, NUTS is tedious and ugly :P
21:26:24  <peter1138> also, yuck at opengfx+ landscape :S
21:26:38  <argoneus> NUTS is awesome
21:26:43  <argoneus> it has clear cut train types
21:26:44  <argoneus> and sizes
21:26:45  <FLHerne> peter1138: Eh? I really like that
21:26:56  <argoneus> how is NUTS tedious
21:27:05  <argoneus> it's more intuitive than vanilla
21:27:08  <peter1138> I prefer TTD graphics, so it's ... ugly :P
21:27:53  <FLHerne> argoneus: That's exactly the problem. There's always a defined vehicle for each role, and each role has a sequence of equivalent but steadily-improving models
21:28:00  <argoneus> yes
21:28:10  <argoneus> that's more fun than having different length trains
21:28:21  <argoneus> lets you think on a higher level
21:28:22  <peter1138> That's more fun *for you* than...
21:28:30  <argoneus> fun is never objective
21:28:53  <FLHerne> argoneus: So IME NUTS turns into 'buy vehicle x1 for service type x', then 'replace x1 vehicles with x2 vehicles', 'replace x2 vehicles with x3 ones' and so on
21:29:33  <peter1138> I usually just run my vehicles until they can no longer go, meanwhile buying newer models as and when.
21:30:15  <FLHerne> argoneus: There's no real need to care about slopes, because NUTS vehicles have insane TE, no real decisions to be made about which locos should replace what where - it all just feels very formulaic to me
21:30:35  <argoneus> FLHerne: I wish the UKRS trains at least had easy to see length
21:30:41  <argoneus> but some look like 1.4 tile, some 1.7
21:31:00  <argoneus> how do I even tell how long they are
21:31:12  <FLHerne> Vehicles are measured in 16ths of a tile
21:31:34  <FLHerne> The default ones are all 8/16ths long
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21:34:03  <argoneus> and the UKRS are from like 5 to like 14?
21:36:35  <FLHerne> argoneus: Sounds about right. The Garratt is pretty long, early freight wagons are tiny
21:38:52  <peter1138> Its variety distribution for train length :p
21:39:44  <argoneus> FLHerne: server 3 looks good
21:39:46  <argoneus> but the map is way too big
21:39:53  <argoneus> it's mostly empty
21:40:13  <FLHerne> argoneus: MP maps always seem to be. No-one likes competing :-(
21:40:40  <argoneus> I just want to play and feel there are other people
21:40:40  <argoneus> :<
21:41:29  <FLHerne> argoneus: You could just play and build around other people anyway
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21:41:44  <argoneus> that's not competing
21:41:50  <argoneus> that's screwing myself over
21:43:11  <peter1138> Usually when you compete someone says you're "stealing their goods"
21:43:25  <peter1138> Also, yellow places way too many signals.
21:43:28  <argoneus> I just think it would be interesting
21:43:32  <argoneus> 10 people in a 512x512 map
21:43:59  <peter1138> 2048x1024
21:44:04  <peter1138> yeah, that's kinda too big :S
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21:44:21  <argoneus> 2048x1024 where?
21:44:26  <peter1138> S3
21:44:31  <argoneus> ah
21:44:32  <argoneus> yeah
21:44:47  <argoneus> as I said
21:44:50  <argoneus> most servers have what I want
21:44:55  <peter1138> And station spread is way too high
21:44:59  <argoneus> but it's either 1, no people 2, bad newgrf 3, map too big
21:45:08  <argoneus> yeah
21:45:12  <argoneus> people just place a train station in big city
21:45:18  <argoneus> and 1 tile stations all around the city
21:45:19  <argoneus> SKILL
21:45:36  <peter1138> Nah, this guy places a massive station outside 2 towns
21:46:02  <peter1138> Then spreads it to cover each, but doesn't understand how spread works, so places lots of small tiles everywhere, instead of just 2 corners :P
21:46:44  <argoneus> I want a server with openttdcoop level saturation
21:46:47  <argoneus> but every one for himself
21:46:48  <argoneus> :(
21:47:11  <argoneus> why is vanilla the most popular server
21:47:16  <argoneus> vanilla has so many issues
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21:48:41  <peter1138> haha, i'm gonna run out of cash
21:48:50  <argoneus> what are you doing?
21:49:58  <peter1138> Yup, out of cash.
21:50:16  <argoneus> h-how
21:50:24  <peter1138> 1 short line...
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21:51:16  <argoneus> does anyone have experience with BTPRo?
21:51:19  <argoneus> and their servers
21:51:40  <SpComb> making the mistake of actually playing openttd again?
21:51:52  <argoneus> I've been playing for a while
21:53:57  <Pikka> what a silly game
21:58:37  <MTsPony> Lol pikka
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22:13:37  <peter1138> Lol pizza
22:14:07  <peter1138> Why do people capitalize only the first letter in 'lol' as if it's a word.
22:14:34  <peter1138> Mind you there probably are people just going around saying 'lol' instead of laughing these days.
22:18:53  <MTsPony> Random fluctuation of the Shift button.
22:19:22  <peter1138> I Suppose It Could Be Worse, Like This. That Would Drive Me Up The Wall.
22:19:39  <MTsPony> That Looks So Lovely Peter One One Three Eight.
22:21:31  <peter1138> That's terrible.
22:26:20  <Pikka> I certainly go around saying lol as if it's a word
22:26:33  <Pikka> Capitalising Every Word Makes Your Philosophy Seem So Profound
22:27:01  <Pikka> Aren't You Glad Twitter Wasn't Around When You Were 16, Or However Old Jaden Smith Is These Days?
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23:05:59  <Eddi|zuHause> and who cares about jaden smith?
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