Log for #openttd on 9th October 2014:
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01:27:11  <Supercheese> automatic industry generation cannot be enabled/disabled after game start... perhaps it should be able to be?
01:27:32  <Supercheese> maybe via console command?
01:27:45  <Supercheese> proposed console command*
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06:12:10  <Pikkaphone> yes but no but
06:12:28  <fjb> Moin
06:12:42  <Pikkaphone> moin fjb
06:13:00  <fjb> Moin Pikkaphone
06:13:38  <Pikkaphone> what haps?
06:17:13  <fjb> It's raining.
06:17:23  <Pikkaphone> how rare
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06:19:00  <fjb> How boring.
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06:45:48  <andythenorth> Pikkaphone: is it?
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06:52:45  <andythenorth> apparently not
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06:53:51  <Pikka> not often, anyway
06:54:04  <V453000> asdf
06:54:11  <Pikka> him too
06:54:16  <V453000> .
06:55:33  <andythenorth> V453000 is a BAD FEATURE
06:55:41  <Pikka> and how
06:55:48  <V453000> WAT
06:55:50  <V453000> WHY
06:55:52  <V453000> WHEN
06:55:53  <andythenorth> we should remove him
06:56:05  <V453000> pf
06:56:18  <andythenorth> YETI was more popular than Iron Horse
06:56:21  <andythenorth> which was annoying to me
06:56:29  <andythenorth> but now there is a new, unpopular YETI
06:56:37  <andythenorth>
06:57:09  * andythenorth now releases grfs according to when they fall off bananas front page
06:57:27  <Pikka> good plan
06:57:34  <andythenorth> people like Log eh?
06:57:41  <andythenorth> it’s good, it’s good, it’s wood
06:57:42  <Supercheese>  Naturally
06:57:50  <Supercheese> better than bad
06:58:10  <V453000> XD
06:58:13  <andythenorth>
06:58:34  <V453000> andythenorth: how many downloads did it have?
06:58:46  <andythenorth> moar
06:58:59  <V453000> ...
06:59:20  <andythenorth> I dunno
06:59:27  <andythenorth> you’re not on the coop account, I can’t look
06:59:29  <andythenorth> also
06:59:34  <V453000> .
06:59:35  <V453000> :)
06:59:38  <andythenorth> I think I call my pipelines grf Electric Fence
06:59:39  <andythenorth>
06:59:52  <Pikka> cool
07:00:06  <Pikka> pikkawiki is finally completely broken :)
07:00:10  <andythenorth> Pikka: that is pretty
07:00:25  <V453000> btw andythenorth , using newGRFs on servers is a big boost to downloads probably :P
07:00:34  <Pikka> it used to only be a little bit broken, I suppose orudge must have updated it again
07:01:09  <V453000> last yeti had just 897 downloads?
07:01:33  <V453000> 0.0.5 had 6795, was there for 2 months
07:02:01  <Pikka> nars has 290k downloads, it will be interesting to see how fast/high it goes after the update :)
07:02:51  <V453000> :D
07:03:30  <V453000> quickly. :)
07:03:54  <Pikka> and also how many complaints there are about "dumbing down" the bad features :D
07:04:43  <V453000> even more :P
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07:05:23  <andythenorth> naughty pikka
07:06:09  <Supercheese> new NARS aaaaahhh
07:06:20  <Supercheese> might actually force me to play a game
07:06:33  <Supercheese> rather than sit and report typos :P
07:09:45  <Pikka> just waiting on word from the MacK. :)
07:09:57  <Supercheese> auto-refit supported? :D
07:10:03  <Pikka> of course
07:10:11  <Supercheese> Superlative
07:10:17  <Pikka> bad features out, good features in :)
07:10:24  <Supercheese> Huzzah
07:10:35  <andythenorth> I’ve got a thing somewhere
07:10:46  <andythenorth> about how people think ‘usability’ is about newbies
07:11:01  <V453000> I wouldnt ever describe autorefit as a good feature :P
07:11:02  <andythenorth> so everything is about how ‘newbies’ can learn complicated features
07:11:13  <andythenorth> instead of figuring out how to remove the features
07:11:29  * andythenorth mumbles
07:11:48  <andythenorth> V453000: autorefit is super super awesome
07:11:52  <Pikka> but moar feetures is always better, right?
07:11:59  <V453000> :)
07:12:04  <andythenorth> yes, I want an email client in my grf
07:12:04  <Pikka> it's not called autorefit any more, because it's not auto :P
07:12:37  <V453000> station / depot refit? D
07:13:01  <Pikka> "autorefit" is station refitting
07:13:05  <andythenorth> it’s called “I forgot to refit my vehicles, but I can fix it through orders refit”
07:14:56  <Pikka> exactly
07:16:06  <V453000> xd
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07:16:23  <V453000> or "use all cargoes as one" ? :P
07:17:55  <andythenorth> no
07:18:00  <andythenorth> that doesn’t work
07:18:05  <andythenorth> especially with cdist
07:18:08  <andythenorth> it’s a myth
07:18:28  <andythenorth> ‘refit any available’ is completely non-functional with cdist
07:19:33  <andythenorth> also back on BAD FEATURES, why is it assumed to be about newbies?
07:19:56  <andythenorth> the people griping most about BAD FEATURES are people who have played the game intensively for years
07:20:43  <V453000> cdist is non-functional with everything :P
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07:21:11  <andythenorth> cdist is nearly awesome
07:21:18  <lugo> hi
07:21:24  <andythenorth> I think fonso has done something very hard
07:21:34  <andythenorth> it’s still a bit weird to play with sometimes
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07:21:43  <andythenorth> but I wouldn’t play without it now
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07:28:05  <Supercheese> I'm still not sold
07:28:33  <Supercheese> but it does really help transfer schemes, that much is certain
07:28:43  <Supercheese> two way transfers were nigh impossible before cargodist
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07:29:23  <V453000> andythenorth: ever played a big FIRS game with it?
07:29:44  <V453000> cdist managed to excellently demolish our game due to somehow broken distribution of FS
07:29:53  <V453000> some clusters of farms simply didnt get anything
07:31:17  <Supercheese> aaaaaaaaah no hovertext in the newest What If?
07:31:28  <Supercheese> :<
07:31:38  <andythenorth> yeah cdist has some problems still
07:31:40  <andythenorth> but eh
07:31:42  <andythenorth> also biab
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07:32:02  <V453000> :DD idk if completely breaking a game is just "some problem" :D
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07:59:14  <planetmaker> moin
07:59:23  <Pikka> boin
08:03:27  <Supercheese> niom
08:04:02  <Supercheese> u!ow
08:04:24  <V453000> mooin
08:10:02  <peter1138> 5/win 55
08:10:35  <Pikka> sounds plausible
08:10:46  <peter1138> :(
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08:28:35  <liq3> V453000: isn't there supposed to be two strong trains at 1950 and 1960 in NUTS?
08:28:57  <V453000> sure
08:29:01  <V453000> what year are you at?
08:29:12  <V453000> it can take ~year for the train to arrive
08:29:17  <V453000> so it can be in 1962
08:29:25  <V453000> stupid openttd random :)
08:29:33  <liq3> 1970.
08:29:38  <liq3> don't have Strong 4 or 5 yet. :P
08:30:06  <V453000> very weird
08:30:13  <V453000> can you sen me the savegame?
08:30:32  <liq3> sure. it's using r26968 btw.
08:30:33  <argoneus> good morning train friends
08:34:22  <Pikka> get out you mad fool
08:34:33  <Pikka> also, good morning
08:34:42  <V453000> liq3: I can see both 4 and 5
08:34:49  <V453000> are you sure you dont havesome filsters on? :)
08:34:50  <liq3> what really?
08:35:34  <liq3> oh gosh my bad. I clicked on a rail depot. XD
08:35:42  <liq3> those windows look almost indentical.
08:35:44  <V453000> ah electricity
08:35:49  <V453000> ?
08:36:00  <liq3> yeh.
08:36:38  <V453000> hm what is this new Show hidden button
08:36:39  <V453000> interesting
08:37:03  <liq3> it's why I'm using the nightly, instead of 1.4.3 :D
08:37:14  <liq3> hide trains I'll never use.
08:37:22  <argoneus> is it a bad feature?
08:37:31  <V453000> oooh
08:37:33  <V453000> interesting
08:37:59  <V453000> did you hide the wagons?
08:38:04  <V453000> aka is it saved in savegame?
08:38:23  <V453000> cause NUTS isnt coded to tell that those wagons should be hidden :D
08:38:30  <argoneus> V453000: what are the use cases for super strong anyway? cliffs that go up two blocks at once?
08:38:41  <V453000> no
08:38:58  <V453000> very long trains with just one engine, huge capacity, and ability to go short curves - while keeping instant acceleration
08:39:02  <argoneus> I still don't understand the whole shebang about turning speed and curve size and whatnot
08:39:05  <V453000> and yeah hills are ignorable entirely
08:39:05  <liq3> yeh I hid them. :]
08:39:18  <liq3> I'm guessing those wagons are just for visuals btw?
08:39:37  <V453000> they arent, visual is same as universal
08:39:43  <liq3> oh. hrm
08:39:44  <V453000> with FIRS you can do some special refit hacks with them
08:39:48  <liq3> oh ok
08:39:51  <V453000> other than that, you can choose what to transport some cargoes in
08:40:05  <V453000> e.g. fizzy drinks have tanker/flatbed, with universal it defaults to one of them
08:40:27  <V453000> other than that, the universal is just ultimately useful
08:40:35  <V453000> no real need to have the rest in 99% cases
08:40:53  <liq3> ok
08:40:59  <argoneus> just like path signals
08:41:11  <liq3> I'm finding path signals preferable for those 2 platform terminal stations. :P
08:41:11  <V453000> not really
08:42:32  <V453000> sure, there it is kind of clear
08:45:32  <planetmaker> V453000, hiding stuff from purchase list is not saved. It's a client-side thing
08:45:45  <V453000> strange
08:45:55  <planetmaker> or so I think it is :)
08:45:58  <V453000> I opened his savegame and had it hidden
08:46:10  <planetmaker> hm, interesting :)
08:46:17  <planetmaker> I might learn something new :D
08:46:21  <V453000> the only other thing I could think of would be if it somehow detected that the wagons were added by a parameter
08:46:27  <V453000> and made them automatically hidden
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09:11:17  <liq3> V453000: NUTS medium and strong engines are almost identical. :<
09:11:50  <argoneus> I found Fast to be good enough for everything :<
09:12:04  <V453000> the difference is quite major
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09:12:11  <liq3> fast is much weaker on hills and accelerates slower if you use 2 medium/strong engines.
09:12:17  <liq3> V453000: it's not.
09:12:21  <liq3> not for medium/strong.
09:12:45  <V453000> strong accelerates a lot better and mainly can pull a lot more
09:12:51  <liq3> nope.
09:12:54  <V453000> 5 tile trains with 1 medium is pain, strong is just fine
09:13:07  <argoneus> I had 7 tile trains with Fast
09:13:14  <argoneus> and they didn't lose speed even on a hill
09:13:18  <argoneus> like, one tile ascension
09:13:21  <liq3> 755t 7 long train, 2 engines for both, medium is 2.3days to 80km/h, strong is 1.9d
09:13:23  <V453000> 7 tiles for one fast should be really bad
09:13:30  <argoneus> it was really good
09:13:36  <argoneus> they went the advertised speed all the way
09:13:44  <planetmaker> what acceleration mechanism do you use, argoneus ?
09:13:48  <argoneus> realistic
09:13:56  <V453000> sure but took them ages to get to top speed argoneus
09:14:05  <argoneus> not ages
09:14:09  <argoneus> and even so, considering the distance
09:14:09  <V453000> but if it was enough for you, its fine
09:14:21  <argoneus> going 180 all the way after a bit slow beginning is much better than going 140 all the time
09:14:25  <V453000> you shouldnt consider the distance but track business
09:14:38  <argoneus> track business?
09:14:47  <V453000> if track is almost empty due to bad acceleration, it isnt optimal.
09:15:00  <V453000> if the track is packed with trains due to good acceleration, it is great
09:15:08  <argoneus> the acceleration wasn't THAT bad
09:15:18  <V453000> with TL7 it is bad.
09:15:32  <argoneus> doesn't the type of cargo matter too?
09:15:34  <V453000> the general rule is: as long as you dont get jams, the faster trains the better
09:15:47  <V453000> acceleration helps to prevent jams/get more cargo throughput
09:15:51  <liq3> V453000: TL5 train, 1 engine strong/medium, 485t, 2.4/3 tiles to 80km/h. should i confirm ingame? :P
09:15:53  <V453000> it does
09:16:01  <peter1138> sorjekuijosdhguoiadsrfhgiuodhrafgiuohedraf
09:16:03  <liq3> 2.4/3 tiles respectiverly for strong/medium.
09:16:08  <peter1138> @ programmers who can't program
09:16:11  <peter1138> fucking twats
09:16:18  <argoneus> peter1138: what happened buddy?
09:16:32  <peter1138> colleague asks me if something will work
09:16:36  <SpComb> not all programmers are programmers
09:16:45  * andythenorth can’t program
09:16:48  <V453000> liq3: to 80. But then they proceed to 160 where strong is quicker, AND it doesnt accelerate anymore, while medium still needs to keep going
09:16:50  <andythenorth> but I can code
09:16:51  <peter1138> which involves calling a function in his program
09:16:57  <liq3> V453000: oh, i'm comparing tier 3s.
09:16:57  <peter1138> as if i would know what it does
09:17:03  <liq3> should I compare tier 9s?
09:17:03  <SpComb> for some, it's just a means to an end, not something to obsess over for it's own inherent value :)
09:17:04  <peter1138> so i asked him what it does
09:17:09  <peter1138> and he said... "i dunno"
09:17:17  <argoneus> lol
09:17:17  <planetmaker> :D
09:17:19  <V453000> doesnt matter which tier you compare, logic should be similar everywhere
09:17:22  <argoneus> at least he talks to you
09:17:28  <argoneus> a friend once asked me to fix his homework
09:17:28  <liq3> that's why I said 80km/h. Top speed of tier 3 strong. :P
09:17:33  <V453000> right
09:17:33  <argoneus> and it had things like
09:17:37  <argoneus> int messi = 5;
09:17:41  <argoneus> int ozil;
09:17:44  <argoneus> I was like no fix it yourself
09:17:54  <liq3> so medium reaches same speed .6 tiles later, but then accelerates to 100kh/m.
09:17:59  <peter1138> SpComb, heretics!
09:18:00  <V453000> for network throughput and stability, strong is a lot better - the extra 20kmh or how much, does hurt
09:18:03  <V453000> yes
09:18:27  <peter1138> more details, the function is called "ParseQueryString"
09:18:37  <argoneus> is this java?
09:18:41  <peter1138> which is ridiculous because the framework already parses it
09:18:44  <peter1138> nah, c#
09:18:46  <argoneus> same shit
09:18:46  <peter1138> the easy one
09:18:50  <liq3> V453000: oh sorry my bad, I was reading data wrong.
09:18:50  <argoneus> oh, right
09:18:52  <argoneus> java would be
09:19:00  <liq3> it's not .6 tiles at all. :<
09:19:01  <argoneus> StringQueryParserFactory
09:19:05  <V453000> it isnt as important how quickly train gets to the destination - more important is how much cargo can your tracks move per second - which are two dišfferent things :)
09:19:08  <V453000> how much is it then?
09:19:14  <V453000> PS .6 was suspicious. :)
09:19:25  <liq3> it's 4 tiles vs 5 tiles. :P
09:19:26  <argoneus> also I had an idea
09:19:28  <liq3> so 1 tile.
09:19:34  <liq3> it's .6 days xD
09:19:35  <argoneus> imagine if you could make roller coaster tycoon tracks in TTD
09:19:44  <V453000> you could have 2 extra wagons on that 1 tile
09:19:54  <V453000> instead there will be empty space because trains cant line up together as well
09:20:07  <liq3> 5 tiles is below train gap you'll get. :<
09:20:12  <liq3> with 2 spaced signals.
09:20:19  <liq3> hrm
09:20:22  <peter1138> argoneus, in c# if you want a request parameter called x you normally do Request.Params["x"]
09:20:24  <liq3> then again maybe not.
09:20:24  <V453000> TL3 can easily have 3 tile gap
09:20:28  <peter1138> argoneus, no parsing needed
09:20:33  <V453000> the minimum gap is something around ~TL
09:20:33  <liq3> really?
09:20:38  <argoneus> peter1138: a request parameter?
09:20:43  <liq3> This stuff is so interesting.
09:20:44  <argoneus> like, a GET parameter?
09:21:01  <SpComb> peter1138: request.args['foo']?
09:21:05  <argoneus> wait
09:21:11  <V453000> liq3: still, the 1 tile is only on the same speed, hwo quickly does it  reach top speed from there?
09:21:12  <argoneus> why would anyone write a website backend in C# of all things
09:21:30  <SpComb> argoneus: Java instead?
09:21:37  <argoneus> ruby/python/(php)
09:21:44  <liq3> V453000: 13 tiles to rearch 100km/h.
09:21:46  <liq3> :P
09:21:51  <V453000> :)
09:21:56  <V453000> see, clearly visible difference :P
09:21:59  <SpComb> argoneus: not enterprise enough
09:22:05  <liq3> only for the last 20km/h tho :<
09:22:07  <argoneus> ruby on rails is enterprise as fuck
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09:22:13  <V453000> those extra 8 tiles of acceleration can, and do mean more gaps between trains
09:22:24  <SpComb> argoneus: besides, you listend languages, not we frameworks, which is percisely part of the problem
09:22:27  <liq3> the trains are 25% faster tho.
09:22:27  <V453000> are the gaps worth 25% extra speed? that is the question :P
09:22:33  <liq3> haha
09:22:36  <argoneus> SpComb: what is part of the problem
09:22:38  <V453000> I believe they should be around equal with TL3
09:22:41  <argoneus> C# is not meant for websites
09:22:44  <peter1138> argoneus, C# ASP.NET is pretty damn good
09:22:48  <peter1138> argoneus, sure it is
09:22:49  <argoneus> it doesn't even run on linux
09:22:56  <liq3> V453000: i'll test it ingame. make a loop or something.
09:22:57  <peter1138> tell that to my linux systems
09:22:58  <V453000> the numbers arent precise, counting the gaps between trains isnt as simple
09:23:01  <argoneus> mono a shit
09:23:03  <SpComb> argoneus: it's rails, or django, or any number of vaugely similar and completely unrelated frameworks
09:23:08  <peter1138> eh, it works
09:23:12  <argoneus> except when it doesn't
09:23:26  <argoneus> XNA, WPF and many things don't work on mono
09:23:34  <SpComb> argoneus: you can be 100% sure that you can hire a new C# ASP.NET guy off the street and get him to hack on your web app
09:23:43  <peter1138> they're not exactly related to web stuff
09:23:47  <SpComb> argoneus: not true for python or ruby
09:23:51  <argoneus> I'd rather even use php than c#
09:23:54  <peter1138> fuck that
09:23:58  <peter1138> php should fuck off and die
09:24:15  <argoneus> there's also things like backbone.js
09:24:17  <argoneus> or flask
09:24:17  <V453000> still, each of the  trains has its use, strong is ultra useful with strong trains (1-3 tiles), medium rail is kind of general purpose, but should do -okay- with TL4+
09:24:22  <argoneus> or node.js
09:24:29  <argoneus> there is a web framework for node
09:24:31  <peter1138> ah the javascript fad
09:24:40  <peter1138> remember when everyone hated js
09:24:51  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 0.92**(1/14)
09:24:52  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.994061871582
09:24:56  <argoneus> people still hate js
09:25:03  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1.92**(1/14)
09:25:04  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.04769724536
09:25:05  <SpComb> peter1138: I browse with NoScript!
09:25:07  <argoneus> it's just that it's the only thing all browsers support
09:25:30  <peter1138> SpComb's doesn't
09:25:45  <argoneus> I'm sure it does
09:25:46  <peter1138> my text-mode browser doesn't
09:25:48  <argoneus> he's just suppressing it
09:26:04  <argoneus> why would you use a text mode browser
09:26:10  <argoneus> does it have green letters on black background too?
09:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i disabled javascript and plugins in my browser
09:26:34  <argoneus> I always thought Links was more a proof of concept
09:26:36  <peter1138> why? because it gets rid of most of the shit on the internet
09:26:39  <argoneus> and hoped no one actually uses that
09:27:16  <argoneus> how does it get rid of it?
09:27:25  <argoneus> the html your text mode browser gets is the same any other browser gets
09:27:30  <argoneus> it's just that it's too crap to draw it
09:27:59  <argoneus> it's more a side effect than a feature
09:28:07  <liq3> V453000: Uranium for Strong 9? :P
09:28:28  <V453000> sure :)
09:28:41  <liq3> ...what is Uranium track? XDI
09:29:11  <V453000> the () sometimes mean what powers it for rail
09:29:15  <V453000> like steam/diesel/electric
09:29:21  <V453000> so I added uranium/dark power
09:29:29  <liq3> lol ok
09:29:43  <liq3> Nuclear train engines :D
09:30:04  <V453000> fits the name I think
09:37:42  <liq3> V453000: I can't modify worker yard with the cheat menu :(
09:38:03  <peter1138> you can only modify primary industries. does it process things?
09:38:13  <liq3> yes.
09:38:30  <peter1138> that's why then :)
09:40:30  <liq3> the cheat menu diasppoints me :(
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09:43:38  <liq3> V453000: why are T9 strongs so light o.o
09:44:02  <liq3> YETIs are half weight?
09:46:54  <andythenorth> how would you cheat at a secondary industry? :o
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09:50:26  <liq3> andythenorth: cheat menu?
09:50:42  <andythenorth> but what would you be achieving?
09:50:48  <liq3> V453000: Gap is 257 pixels for strong, 267 pixels for medium, for TL3 Yetis full cargo.
09:51:06  <liq3> Tier 9s btw.
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09:51:47  <liq3> andythenorth: producing cargo so I can load up?
09:51:57  <andythenorth> hmm
09:52:14  <andythenorth> so the cheat would be ‘processing industry produces without input'?
09:52:20  <liq3> yep. :D
09:52:28  <liq3> programming wise, could just add a flat value.
09:52:40  <liq3> a magical, cheat one
09:53:31  <andythenorth> industry code can do that
09:53:45  <andythenorth> so the cheat would just set the output value ?
09:53:52  <andythenorth> I don’t think anyone will do it mind :P
09:54:04  <andythenorth> could be done without modifying game, just in newgrf
09:55:17  <liq3> dunno.
09:56:40  <andythenorth> could be done
09:56:45  <andythenorth> FIRS ports kind of do it
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10:01:46  <liq3> V453000: even with a priority, the gap is strong 4, medium 5.
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10:11:19  <V453000> modify worker yard in cheat menu?
10:12:07  <liq3> yeh, change production amount.
10:12:12  <liq3> so I can get more YETIs :D
10:12:19  <V453000> yeah, yeti wont work with that
10:12:25  <V453000> it uses different production code
10:12:27  <liq3> yeh.
10:12:30  <andythenorth> it would if you changed everything
10:12:33  <liq3> it's fine, minor issue.
10:12:38  <V453000> however you could go to scenario editor and grow the town
10:12:40  <andythenorth> read the production multiplier during production cb
10:12:43  <V453000> or set town_growth_rate to 4
10:12:55  <liq3> I just used fast forward. only need a few yetis.
10:12:58  <V453000> I dont think we want that andythenorth but I dont do the code anymore :P
10:13:10  <V453000> aha, didnt know you meant only in short term liq3 :P
10:13:11  <andythenorth> :o
10:13:13  <andythenorth> who codes it?
10:13:16  <V453000> Sylf
10:13:25  <liq3> Yeh, wanted like 1000 YETis to fill the trains. :D
10:13:27  <liq3> for the test.
10:13:33  <V453000> hm :)
10:13:43  <liq3> I still think there's almost no difference between strong and medium :D
10:13:48  <argoneus> is it possible
10:13:51  <argoneus> to have moving cargo?
10:13:54  <argoneus> like non static wagon sprites
10:14:15  <V453000> like wagons without wagon sprites, only cargo
10:14:17  <V453000> sure is
10:14:34  <argoneus> no but like
10:14:35  <liq3> There's so few situations where strong is better.
10:14:37  <argoneus> it will be a normal wagon
10:14:46  <argoneus> except the cargo will be e.g. cattle and the sheeps will be running around
10:14:49  <argoneus> but only when loaded obviously
10:14:52  <argoneus> is that possible?
10:14:56  <V453000> train length matters too liq3 , but yes they are very similar
10:14:58  <argoneus> the cows*
10:15:05  <V453000> compare them with monorail medium, also similar purpose
10:15:18  <V453000> runing around argoneus ?
10:15:33  <argoneus> yes
10:15:44  <argoneus> like when you load coal, it's just there, static
10:15:50  <argoneus> but imagine having a livestock wagon with an open roof
10:16:01  <argoneus> would it be possible to have the things inside move?
10:16:30  <V453000> yes
10:16:46  <V453000> little point in that though
10:16:54  <argoneus> why?
10:17:01  <V453000> it isnt really visible when the train is moving
10:17:05  <argoneus> you could make your yetis jump around on the wagon
10:17:07  <argoneus> :D
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10:17:33  <V453000> not even mentioning that such animations could take a lot of cpu :)
10:17:55  <peter1138> you could have it moving around while it loaded
10:18:00  <argoneus> the cpu is not doing anything most of the time anyway :<
10:18:08  <peter1138> hahaha
10:18:12  <V453000> yeah, during loading would be somewhat ok
10:18:15  <argoneus> most cpu operations are DO NOTHING
10:18:45  <V453000> with 3000 trains it is a bit different argoneus
10:19:25  <liq3> Monorail Medium seems insane compared to rail. o.o
10:20:20  <V453000> yes, the capacity is the main downside
10:21:57  <liq3> yeh, cargo difference is pretty huge on TL3 trains.
10:23:12  <V453000> each train has its purpose, and in questionable cases you just choose whichever you feel like using the most :)
10:23:39  <V453000> TL3 is a case of that. there are many options
10:23:42  <argoneus> isn't that the point of NUTS after all?
10:23:52  <V453000> which is fine, because TL3 is most often used
10:23:53  <argoneus> instead of going for historical accuracy, you go for letting the player strategize what he needs where
10:23:56  <argoneus> and optimize
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10:23:59  <V453000> sure
10:24:10  <liq3> There's not much strategy when all the trains are equal. xD
10:24:11  <argoneus> wait
10:24:14  <argoneus> TL3 is used most often?
10:24:20  <argoneus> I thought everyone used TL7?
10:24:25  <liq3> TL3 is the easiest to work with.
10:24:29  <V453000> good people use TL3
10:24:33  <V453000> mostly
10:24:36  <argoneus> I'll have to use TL3 then!!
10:24:38  <V453000> I use TL5 personally
10:24:56  <argoneus> oh
10:25:07  <V453000> it depends on the map
10:25:16  <V453000> if if is flat and smooth then TL3 isnt that beneficial
10:25:17  <argoneus> is it because with TL3, it's easier to tell where you need more trains, it's easier to add them and they flow all the time so you don't have bursts?
10:25:25  <V453000> no
10:25:41  <V453000> shorter trains == shorter curves == shorter waiting spots == shorter stations, everythinh smaller
10:26:05  <argoneus> but it's more expensive
10:26:21  <V453000> sure, if you have millions after an hour of playing, expensive matters
10:27:26  <argoneus> you have millions after an hour?
10:27:50  <argoneus> do you have some sort of weird trick?
10:27:55  <argoneus> that the developers hate you for?
10:27:58  <V453000> certainly amount I cant reasonably spend?
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10:28:22  <V453000> note that it depends on settings and costs, NUTS is cheap so getting money is equally fast
10:28:31  <V453000> obviously you just build a lot of trains and it comes easily
10:28:35  <argoneus> why is TL7 not so great, though?
10:28:40  <argoneus> it's not hard to make curves for TL7
10:28:45  <argoneus> there's usually a lot of space on map
10:28:46  <V453000> then you play on super flat maps
10:29:00  <argoneus> but it's funny
10:29:03  <V453000> aha
10:29:04  <argoneus> when I join a server
10:29:05  <V453000> well then
10:29:09  <argoneus> and see people
10:29:11  <argoneus> that have like TL15
10:29:18  <argoneus> I didn't even know the game allowed that
10:29:21  <V453000> well, they also never have hubs and complex stations
10:29:34  <liq3> V453000: wow, if my math is right, Monorail and medium rail are almost identical in throughput at TL3...
10:29:40  <V453000> as soon as you start expanding the network and need more, more and more stuff, shorter trains are better
10:29:45  <argoneus> so does TL5/3 make things easier>?
10:29:45  <liq3> ...which is bad for rail, because monorail becomes better the longer the train gets. :P
10:30:10  <V453000> argoneus: a lot.
10:30:13  <argoneus> I wonder
10:30:18  <V453000> every tile of train length is a big difference
10:30:19  <argoneus> is TL3 actually detrimental to income on super flat maps?
10:30:28  <argoneus> or not really
10:30:31  <V453000> income doesnt matter
10:30:39  <liq3> ^
10:30:52  <V453000> but amount and distance with slight effect of speed matters for money
10:30:55  <argoneus> b-but how will I flash my epeen at my friends with my company value?
10:31:19  <V453000> regardless, liq3, at longer times monorail medium gets less TE, and there are other trains which are probably better at longer TL
10:31:26  <argoneus> how does company value work anyway, it seems weird
10:31:40  <argoneus> is it current money + income?
10:31:41  <V453000> you wont, you will show them the raw power of 1000 trains on your small island
10:31:49  <argoneus> lol
10:31:49  <liq3> V453000: Medium monorail has 1.6k Max TE tho....
10:31:54  <liq3> and TE barely matters.
10:31:57  <V453000> only noobs shit bricks from numbers, seeing the insane network is better
10:32:27  <V453000> liq3: idk, but it should mean that it reduces potency with higher TL :P
10:32:39  <argoneus> though yeah
10:32:43  <argoneus> the coop trains I saw
10:32:48  <argoneus> they more felt like a flowing water
10:32:49  <argoneus> than trains
10:32:51  <liq3> V453000: you'd have to get massive TL for it to matter. XD
10:33:04  <V453000> and strong will be again good with TL5, or even something for extra utility, shortening curve requirements - maglev or slugs are very good with TL5+
10:33:09  <liq3> TE mainly matters for long, powerful trains and hills.
10:33:13  <argoneus> so there's nothing wrong with using TL3 for everything?
10:33:20  <V453000> argoneus: you just saw one of many :)
10:33:34  <V453000> there isnt, but on a stupidly flat map it isnt gaining anything either argoneus
10:33:35  <argoneus> I just thought the maintenance would be horribly high
10:33:41  <V453000> oh god prices again
10:33:42  <argoneus> I mean, even if it looks good, it should be monetarily efficient, no?
10:33:47  <V453000> you CANT buy a good network
10:33:51  <V453000> you have to be able to build it
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10:34:13  <V453000> if you have curves long 7, you wont build a small hub in the mountains
10:34:25  <liq3> argoneus: money is irrelevant. you end up stupidly rich with any decent network.
10:34:32  <argoneus> well, yeah
10:34:42  <argoneus> but I like being in the +, and having things optimized that way too
10:34:50  <V453000> you are in the + easily
10:34:57  <liq3> i'm making m a year with 250 TL3 trains. :/
10:34:58  <V453000> PS with NUTS you cant really be in the negative :P
10:35:02  <liq3> on a 256x256 map.
10:35:19  <liq3> it'd be like 0m on a 512x512 map.
10:35:46  <argoneus> so it's like
10:36:04  <argoneus> TL3 for easier management, TL7 for more transported cargo, and TL5 inbetween?
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10:36:14  <argoneus> er, more at once*
10:36:23  <liq3> I think TL7 is more for the challenge.
10:36:38  <peter1138> Oh god, 1x GUI is so small :S
10:36:42  <V453000> it all depends on many things
10:36:44  <argoneus> do you mean, challenged?
10:37:00  <V453000> generally, yes, the longer trains you can afford to build, the more cargo you can move due to less gaps on tracks
10:37:02  <liq3> well with stock trains maglev is completely superior to everything afaik.
10:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: remember when the game was 640x480?
10:37:12  <liq3> and keeping TL7 maglev trains at top speed is hard.
10:37:15  <V453000> in practice, it might be easier to move more cargo with TL3 than with TL7
10:37:25  <peter1138> :-)
10:37:29  <V453000> stock trains are just bad :)
10:37:32  <liq3> yeh.
10:37:40  <liq3> Lev4 is the best afaik lol. Nothing else comes close.
10:37:43  <peter1138> I tried with double-size sprite font, it's horrible.
10:37:55  <V453000> Lev4 has so atrocious acceleration that Lev3 is the only usable option
10:38:04  <Eddi|zuHause> back when it was still supported, i played in double mode all the time
10:38:25  <argoneus> I want to kiss whoever invented shared orders
10:38:33  <argoneus> it was the #1 annoying thing in vanilla
10:38:38  <argoneus> that, and not being able to clone
10:38:53  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, it probably looks different than just double-size icons and text.
10:38:56  <liq3> V453000: I'm not sure that's true.
10:39:08  <V453000> it is, proven countless times
10:39:17  <liq3> If you say so. :P
10:39:23  <liq3> Lev3 still destroys monorail and rail.
10:39:24  <V453000> TL3 with 2x Lev3 is TONS better than Lev4
10:39:26  <V453000> without question
10:39:27  <argoneus> but why does acceleration matter, if it's long distance and you don't have 100 trains on the same track?
10:39:31  <Eddi|zuHause> there was also a patch that made some pixel interpolation
10:39:45  <Eddi|zuHause> like "hq2x"
10:39:50  <V453000> argoneus: it matters how many trains you put on the track
10:40:03  <V453000> if you dont have 100 trains on the same network then you just dont have a network
10:40:10  <V453000> at that point you could as well use ships.
10:40:21  <Eddi|zuHause> but because it was optimised for isometric lines, text sometimes looked weird
10:40:21  <peter1138> 2x lev3 yes
10:40:28  <peter1138> 30000 instead of 20000 hp
10:40:29  <argoneus> so the point of the game
10:40:41  <liq3> lev3 has lower top speed tho.
10:40:44  <argoneus> is not to have one huge train across the entire map,  but a steady flow of trains everywhere?
10:40:53  <V453000> lower top speed is only beneficial, they reaceh top speed sooner
10:40:57  <V453000> in this case
10:40:58  <argoneus> or is that just your personal goal
10:41:05  <liq3> it depends on how much trains stop and start. it's not clear cut. :p
10:41:06  <Eddi|zuHause> if you're going for track density, lower speed and more power is better
10:41:09  <V453000> the game isnt about anything, you make your own goal
10:41:25  <V453000> liq3: Lev3 vs Lev4 is totally clear
10:41:29  <argoneus> but after all this time the game has been minmaxed and optimized for best results, no?
10:41:30  <V453000> sorry :)
10:41:44  <V453000> argoneus: what is best result? :D
10:41:51  <liq3> V453000: even if you have a seperate mainline going from steel to factory, and another for goods to town? :p
10:41:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i've used the Levs maybe 10 years ago the last time...
10:41:56  <argoneus> using all industries to their full potential
10:41:57  <argoneus> I'd guess
10:42:01  <Eddi|zuHause> in some TTDP 1.7 game
10:42:21  <argoneus> you are limited by industries and their production
10:42:25  <Eddi|zuHause> basically, that's the only time i used them...
10:42:26  <V453000> liq3: if each of them is 50% used, then it doesnt matter, if both are full, it matters a ton
10:42:28  <argoneus> so pushing that limit is the goal?
10:42:42  <argoneus> imho at least
10:42:44  <V453000> argoneus: industries producing 2295 units/month each are IMPOSSIBLE to transport all
10:42:46  <liq3> V453000: so it's more that lev3 is better on dense network.s :P
10:43:01  <liq3> eh really?
10:43:17  <argoneus> V453000: are you sure it's impossible? o.o
10:43:26  <liq3> V453000: I dunno, that 5000 train map.... :P
10:43:30  <V453000> I had 200 000 goods production in pzg2013 with 5000 trains and super special network, 11 tracks of absolutely FULL to the max with TL5
10:43:42  <liq3> haha
10:43:44  <V453000> so, like 80 industries would that be
10:43:55  <V453000> in our coop game where we used 2295 industries I think we had like 25 farms
10:44:07  <V453000> 5 lines in each direction on the mainline or more
10:44:12  <V453000> total hell
10:44:24  <argoneus> oh wow
10:44:48  <V453000> now obviously if you moved cargo by 30 tiles from each industry to local factories, it would work
10:44:51  <V453000> I am talking about one big network
10:44:56  <Eddi|zuHause> use 5000 ships :p
10:45:24  <peter1138> heh
10:45:27  <peter1138> yeah, even with 1 head
10:45:35  <peter1138> lev3 is faster
10:45:42  <V453000> yes it is
10:45:57  <V453000> the 643kmh  is just too much
10:45:57  <peter1138> only on really long runs will lev4 keep up
10:46:08  <V453000> yes but that means nothing will disrupt it :P
10:46:38  <Eddi|zuHause> introduce braking distance and gradual slowdown on red signal
10:47:03  <V453000> I dont think that helps? :D
10:47:12  <argoneus> introduce train overtaking
10:47:20  <V453000> XD
10:47:38  <andythenorth> train wormholes
10:47:41  <argoneus> has there ever been a coop game
10:47:42  <andythenorth> just use ships :P
10:47:45  <argoneus> where you made only road vehicles
10:47:47  <argoneus> or would that be boring
10:47:49  <V453000> yes
10:47:54  <V453000> it is boring but it happened
10:47:59  <andythenorth> increase ship speed limit :P
10:48:07  <V453000> see my user page, 5000 road vehicles on 256x256
10:48:10  <V453000> on coop wiki
10:48:17  <argoneus> oh jesus
10:48:24  <V453000>
10:48:33  <V453000> that was slightly interesting yeah
10:48:57  <V453000> but there isnt really any way how to control RVs -> there is nothing to learn -> boring sooner orl ater
10:49:06  <argoneus> waypoints and oneway signals
10:49:07  <argoneus> :<
10:49:09  <liq3> V453000: TL3 Lev4 doesn't accelerate that slow. :/
10:49:15  <V453000> jesus fuck
10:49:17  <liq3> sure, it's slow compared to lev3....
10:49:24  <peter1138> hmm, 85 tiles for Lev4 to catch up with 2x Lev3
10:49:29  <V453000> yes, it is relative, THAT slow can also mean something else, but Lev4 is HORRIBLE
10:49:33  <V453000> see prozone game 19
10:49:40  <V453000> we used it there
10:49:49  <liq3> hrm
10:49:58  <liq3> what was wrong with it in that game?
10:50:17  <V453000> density? that they break on every merging point if you let them to?
10:50:29  <V453000> if you let them to == unless you build super oversized and wtf joiners
10:50:56  <liq3> hrm. I guess I can see it causing huge gaps because of the high top speed.
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10:51:03  <Eddi|zuHause> in my game i had to timetable the transrapid so it wouldn't ever meet at the merge
10:51:20  <Eddi|zuHause> because that cut the capacity like in half...
10:51:33  <V453000> timetable doesnt work with big networks yeah :) in small scale you can fiddle with things
10:51:35  <Eddi|zuHause> and it wouldn't ever recover from that
10:51:41  <V453000> one of our guys even did signal-less networks
10:51:45  <V453000> "networks"
10:52:00  <V453000> multiple trains in one tunnel \o/ :D
10:52:08  <liq3> oh god that thing lol.
10:52:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like brianetta
10:53:07  <V453000> no, mfb
10:53:17  <peter1138> i miss easy separation
10:53:24  <peter1138> which timetables promise but i can't figure out :p
10:53:57  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: just set up the times, and ctrl+click on start date...
10:54:17  <peter1138> I tried that, does not work.
10:54:48  <Eddi|zuHause> depends how interruption-heavy your network is
11:00:23  <peter1138> Ok so I have 2 trains...
11:00:29  <peter1138> and they run together :(
11:02:02  <Eddi|zuHause> then they blocked each other on some junction, and the waiting time at station does not suffice to balance that out
11:02:08  <peter1138> Nope
11:02:17  <peter1138> run it always running late
11:02:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. separation does not work when they are running late
11:03:03  <peter1138> There's no reason for them to run late
11:03:09  <peter1138> The timetable is long enough
11:04:19  <Eddi|zuHause> visiting depot?
11:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> not able to overtake?
11:04:51  <peter1138> Yes, plenty of time
11:05:22  <peter1138> Ok, think I got it, I have to set the date well in the future so that all trains can wait.
11:06:18  <peter1138> ctrl+click on start date (and set the date to sometime int he future)
11:06:22  <Pikka> eh, too fiddly
11:06:25  <peter1138> Yeah
11:06:38  <peter1138> And then, if you ever change it, you have to resync it all over again
11:06:59  <V453000> what if you autoreplace trains?
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11:09:04  <peter1138> yeah, if ever a train gets out of sync...
11:09:09  <peter1138> it's a bitch to put it back
11:09:23  <peter1138> Wasn't there an autoseparation patch?
11:09:38  <planetmaker> ctrl+click with time table
11:09:44  <peter1138> planetmaker, please read up
11:09:55  <planetmaker> how boring ;)
11:10:03  <V453000> expanding the network sounds like a better idea :P
11:10:29  <peter1138> planetmaker, it doesn't work usefully.
11:10:40  <peter1138> The moment a train gets sidetracked it's all screwed
11:10:49  <V453000> world ends
11:11:18  <peter1138> Now I have both trains running on time, but they're not separated, and I didn't touch any buttons.
11:11:27  <planetmaker> I agree. It's a bit of a nuissance to get working
11:11:34  <planetmaker> maybe that's why I hardly use it
11:11:41  <peter1138> it's a BAD FEATURE
11:11:42  <peter1138> hah
11:12:10  <peter1138> if the train is too delayed that it will never catch up, it should wait until the next cycle.
11:12:28  <peter1138> seems that should be simple enough to implement, it already knows the length of the cycle
11:17:20  <V453000> sounds reasonable
11:17:58  <V453000> but there are other solution to trains stacking, make them have different paths / give them conditional orders to sometimes go elsewhere
11:18:15  <V453000> and they will not create the typical snake where they travel all together
11:19:49  <V453000> definitely more interesting to think about systematic things than suffering hell trying to make a primitive feature work
11:19:54  <V453000> "solve the game for me" :P
11:20:03  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*V453000@*] by peter1138
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11:20:42  <planetmaker> meh
11:20:50  <argoneus> why
11:24:14  <__ln__> eeeeend of discussion
11:25:04  <planetmaker> quite so it seems.
11:25:29  <planetmaker> in the most boring way imaginable
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11:29:18  <V453000> wat
11:29:26  <V453000> I dont even remember what I said :D
11:29:30  <peter1138> <3
11:30:21  <V453000> !logs
11:30:23  <V453000> @logs
11:30:23  <DorpsGek> V453000:
11:30:32  <peter1138> i got some bacon left over
11:30:46  <V453000> booring
11:31:26  <peter1138>
11:31:38  <peter1138> Says "implemented at some point" but it's not :S
11:32:30  <peter1138> Well, maybe implemented differently
11:33:48  <planetmaker> it should have been rubi's work
11:33:59  <planetmaker> some basic form of it
11:34:28  <peter1138> Yeah, bits are there.
11:35:02  <planetmaker> feel free to re-open it, if it's not yet done. It was then my understanding it is... and I'm sure I checked back with *someone* before I closed it :)
11:35:12  <planetmaker> but history is dark and gray :)
11:35:14  <planetmaker> and murky
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11:37:40  <argoneus> planetmaker: you are dutch?
11:37:52  <V453000> XD
11:38:39  <planetmaker> yes yes. Also Dutch
11:39:24  <argoneus> nice
11:39:58  <V453000> everybody dutch
11:40:06  <planetmaker> reminds me of an aquaintance... German nationality, speaks only English, lives in France. Or something like that
11:40:22  <planetmaker> quite so, V453000 ;)
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12:24:42  <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> ctrl+click on start date (and set the date to sometime int he future) <-- what always puzzled me a bit was that the start date is the date where it arrives at the station, not when it leaves...
12:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: autoseparation is a pain once you try to synchronize two routes
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12:38:07  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: also, autoseparation has a negative feedback effect with traffic jams
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13:29:23  <_maddy> hmm, can I replace both my engines + cars at once?
13:29:36  <argoneus> es
13:29:37  <argoneus> yes
13:29:48  <argoneus> just set both to autoreplace
13:32:18  <_maddy> works perfectly, even cargo is not lost :)
13:33:20  <Celestar> lalala :D
13:33:20  <argoneus> thanks obama
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13:47:15  <_maddy> why do the yeti dudes look like yellow ducks?
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13:47:34  <Pikka> they're in disguise
13:48:28  <V453000> no better sprites  yet _maddy  :)
13:48:44  <V453000> and it isnt THAT FAR from truth XD
13:49:01  <Pikka> let's see the latest incarnation, then
13:49:18  <V453000>
13:49:53  <argoneus> kawaii
13:49:54  <V453000> plastic duck has been refined into a plastic hat now
13:50:20  <Pikka> :F
13:50:22  <argoneus> you're making me want to try out 3dsmax
13:50:31  <argoneus> but I won't succumb, for I would be very disappointed by myself
13:50:41  <Pikka> are they more or less final now?
13:51:09  <Pikka> they're not as yetiish as the first version :P
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13:59:25  <V453000> yeah I think that is design-wise final-for-now
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13:59:37  <V453000> indeed not as yeti-ish but a lot clearer at the x4 to see what it is
13:59:44  <V453000> and well, I like the cartoony look
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14:00:11  <V453000> argoneus: you can probably get very similar output in any of blender/cinema4D/whatever
14:00:20  <V453000> with good textures and some solid renderer
14:00:52  <argoneus> V453000: well, it's more that I'm not familiar with the tools and I'm a shitty artist
14:01:01  <argoneus> when I looked at people model
14:01:26  <argoneus> they used the extorts and other things really smoothly and with hotkeys and got really nice results really fast
14:01:44  <argoneus> I guess that's just raw practice
14:01:52  <V453000> hotkeys are Only, and only a matter of practice
14:02:12  <V453000> fast is not very common in 3D, it is work, and a lot of work :)
14:02:34  <argoneus> how fast can you form a fancy pillar out of a cube in 3dsmax?
14:03:38  <V453000> depends, which pillar?
14:03:55  <argoneus> I don't know, I'm not an architect
14:04:05  <argoneus> just some nice pillar with some carved mosaics on the side maybe
14:04:36  <argoneus> or a WW2 soldier helmet
14:04:39  <V453000> carved mosaics XD
14:04:42  <argoneus> one of those german ones, you know the shape
14:04:47  <argoneus> I tried making a helmet in 3ds once
14:04:53  <argoneus> took me like 6 hours and I had to follow a tutorial too
14:04:54  <argoneus> ;;
14:04:57  <V453000> helmet, hm, could take a few hours
14:05:16  <argoneus> isn't it just a sphere with some cut out insides?
14:05:37  <V453000> well depends how you need to use it, if 2-sided as a mass, it gets a lot harder
14:05:49  <argoneus> oh
14:05:55  <V453000> you could probably start from a sphere,you could do other things
14:06:04  <V453000> there are many approaches to it and the usage matters a lot
14:06:28  <V453000> also if there is going to be closeup look, like if you need to make scratches through textures/normal maps, ...
14:06:47  <V453000> for example making those latest YETIs with the helmet took me 1 full work day
14:07:01  <V453000> modeling, mapping, texturing, rigging
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14:07:31  <V453000> not quite done though
14:07:44  <V453000> the rigging is very quick and dirty and needs improving for proper animating
14:07:47  <V453000> if not even redoing
14:09:08  <argoneus> the extent of my modelling skins is making a body armor for mount & blade
14:09:10  <argoneus> and it looked shit
14:09:11  <argoneus> :<
14:09:14  <argoneus> skills
14:09:15  <argoneus> *
14:09:42  <V453000> I liked one quote: The good people have failed more times than the bad people ever tried.
14:09:48  <V453000> hence, practice. :)
14:10:16  <V453000> and especially 3D things take a lot of it
14:10:38  <argoneus> I wish I was motivated to learn new things when I come home
14:11:03  <V453000> you dont wish that, you just either do it or not :)
14:11:25  <argoneus> well
14:11:29  <argoneus> but I am tempted to do other things more
14:11:38  <argoneus> and end up doing those instead
14:11:42  <argoneus> there's not enough time in a day :(
14:12:07  <V453000> I agree with the last statement :>
14:12:23  <planetmaker> <V453000> I liked one quote: The good people have failed more times than the bad people ever tried. <-- i like that :)
14:13:46  <argoneus> I like that the better someone is at something
14:13:49  <argoneus> the worse they think they are
14:13:54  <Pikka> V: when it's done, send one over and I'll put it on a flatcar :)
14:13:56  <argoneus> like, they see more mistakes than before
14:13:58  <argoneus> because they are adept at it
14:14:02  <argoneus> and think they got worse
14:14:07  <V453000> I sure will Pikka :) thanks
14:15:19  <V453000> I just need to rig it properly
14:15:26  <V453000> then you can create your own pose as you like
14:15:33  <V453000> the current skinning is just borkd :D
14:16:06  <argoneus> I never understood rigging properly
14:16:20  <V453000> me neither which is why I am trying to
14:16:21  <argoneus> is it like, making a skeletal model, and then you connect the vertices of the model to the skeleton?
14:16:30  <V453000> something like that yes
14:16:34  <V453000> there are various ways how to do it
14:16:53  <V453000> but basically you create bone structure to which vertices are linked -somehow-
14:17:10  <V453000> but it isnt just that, that is the basic step
14:17:19  <V453000> the more important thing is to make bones interact with each other properly
14:17:19  <argoneus> and if you do it wrong you get vertices that overlap eachother :D
14:17:34  <V453000> e.g. a hand has a helper object, you just move the helper object and the arm automatically follows
14:17:35  <V453000> etc
14:17:44  <argoneus> oh
14:17:48  <argoneus> never heard of that
14:17:51  <V453000> yeah, typically glitches in some bad poses etc
14:17:58  <V453000> it is called inverse kinematics, IK
14:18:25  <argoneus> so instead of saying
14:18:28  <V453000> there is a lot more to it but I dont understand all of it yet
14:18:33  <argoneus> hand, clench fist and move forward here
14:18:34  <argoneus> you say
14:18:40  <argoneus> hand, punch in this direction
14:18:43  <argoneus> and that's what the helper obj is for?
14:18:48  <V453000> you could do that yes
14:18:57  <V453000> basically you create GUI for controlling the character
14:19:09  <argoneus> oh
14:19:11  <V453000> the more control the animator has, the better
14:19:15  <argoneus> that helps you set some constraints too, right
14:19:21  <argoneus> like it won't let you move the hand in a way it'd break
14:19:28  <argoneus> or mess up the model
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14:19:50  <V453000>
14:19:53  <V453000> typical example
14:19:57  <argoneus> I'm at work right now, can't watch :<
14:19:59  <V453000> that doesnt have any IK, just facial animations
14:20:08  <V453000> yeah, limits
14:20:14  <V453000> constraint is something a bit different :)
14:20:22  <argoneus> also inverse kinematics spawns flashbacks in my head
14:20:24  <argoneus> of interior semiotics
14:20:26  * argoneus shivers
14:21:04  <V453000> ok when you watch it, the legs have IK, hands are "FK" (forward kinematics) which means they are to be animated manually by moving bones/helper objects
14:23:15  <Pikka> hmm, max animation...
14:24:29  <Pikka> I remember these guys ... good times :D
14:26:11  <argoneus> V453000: how much do you reckon the model of a soldier in a game takes to make these days?
14:26:16  <argoneus> how long*
14:26:29  <argoneus> like, those super realistic human soldiers
14:26:35  <argoneus> can a model take even weeks to make?
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14:39:04  <argoneus> V453000: are any tools even comparable to 3ds?
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14:39:31  <argoneus> on your level that is
14:39:36  <argoneus> for me everything would be sufficient I'd guess
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14:54:39  <V453000> one model doesnt just take months
14:54:48  <V453000> one model can be hundreds of people, and months
14:55:03  <V453000> like in pixar
14:55:05  <V453000> anyway, gtg
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16:08:36  <argoneus> ayyyy lmao
16:08:42  <argoneus> oops
16:08:49  <argoneus> why is this channel my default
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16:12:21  <peter1138> Because it's the best.
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17:46:21  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26982 trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt (2014-10-09 17:46:13 UTC)
17:46:22  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:23  <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 39 changes by siu238X
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17:49:32  <_maddy> I hate the town authority, they are always preventing me from building stations... and now I got caught bribing
17:53:17  <_maddy> a small town too, with 389 people, and this mayor acts like a big shot
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18:02:46  <peter1138> Okay, vehicle group profits, where should they go?
18:03:03  <Prof_Frink> Into my offshore account.
18:03:08  <peter1138> :D
18:03:14  <peter1138> Display wise :p
18:03:41  <frosch123> you mean "numbers"? we already have icons
18:03:42  *** kais58___ is now known as kais58|AFK
18:04:00  <frosch123> put them in a tooltip or something?
18:04:11  <peter1138> Hmm
18:08:34  <Supercheese> "This group earned $X last year"?
18:09:55  * peter1138 looks at how the depot window does it.
18:13:43  <planetmaker> the group window could have an additional line in the very top which states that with group statistics
18:15:42  <Alberth> peter1138:  like FS#1042 ?  (haven't looked at the actual patch though)
18:16:11  <peter1138> 1042 sounds old :)
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18:16:50  <Wolf01> hello
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18:17:13  <Alberth> it probably is old :p
18:17:20  <Alberth> hi wolf, andy
18:17:25  <Wolf01> o/
18:18:19  <andythenorth> “the 8bpp puts off players” thing is probably true but over-rated
18:18:35  <andythenorth> based on the number of limited-palette, pixelart iOS games I see played
18:18:45  <andythenorth> at 2x or 4x zoom no less
18:19:20  <peter1138> Who claims that?
18:19:29  <andythenorth> people, regularly
18:19:32  <andythenorth> mostly in the forums
18:19:43  <andythenorth> floods of players will turn up if we only make it 32bpp
18:19:59  <peter1138> Most people only think 8bpp means blocky...
18:20:23  <andythenorth> yeah nobody plays this
18:20:29  <andythenorth> or the similar voxel stuff
18:20:48  <peter1138> Minecraft is not popular at all...
18:20:53  <andythenorth> and simply nobody plays the nimblebit stuff
18:20:58  <andythenorth> and lego, everyone hates lego
18:21:02  <peter1138> But hey, that's not 8bpp.
18:21:15  <andythenorth> well
18:21:16  <andythenorth> yes
18:21:41  <andythenorth> conflation of 32bpp and EZ
18:21:55  <peter1138> tt-forums appears to have stopped for me :S
18:22:18  <andythenorth> a big loss?
18:22:21  <peter1138> yeah but then they conflate 32bpp with realistic scale, smooth curves, and all that malarkey
18:24:04  <peter1138> Ah, Digitalfox...
18:24:25  <peter1138> Even mentions Minecraft as 8bpp o_O
18:27:23  <Supercheese> 8 bacons per pig
18:27:36  * Supercheese would much rather have 32 bacons per pig
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18:37:22  <peter1138> Hmm, it works, but...
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18:39:15  <frosch123> screenshot?
18:39:41  *** Jelmazmo [] has quit []
18:44:15  <peter1138>
18:44:26  <peter1138> Needs a different string cos the existing one uses {SMALL}
18:44:50  <frosch123> he, you are back to small icons and big font? :)
18:45:06  <peter1138> Clean branch for this.
18:45:54  <frosch123> i guess a \n would look nice between "Profit this year:" and "Profit last year:"
18:46:13  <peter1138> Feels like I should have a button to expand the window to add enough space to just put it into the window itself.
18:48:46  <andythenorth> hmm
18:48:53  <andythenorth> groups gui is shonky anyway
18:48:55  <andythenorth> dunno why
18:48:59  * andythenorth thinks on
18:49:07  <peter1138> Yes it is a bit.
18:49:15  <frosch123> change it into a routes window :p
18:49:50  <peter1138> yeah
18:50:32  <andythenorth> we can’t columnate?
18:50:36  <andythenorth> profit column?
18:50:40  <andythenorth> with sum?
18:50:41  <andythenorth> bit boring
18:50:42  <peter1138> groups and shared orders probably shouldn't be separate things
18:50:47  <frosch123> no excel please
18:50:47  <andythenorth> well
18:51:09  <peter1138> but then that makes everything different
18:52:10  <andythenorth> just sacrifice a row to group metadata
18:52:15  <andythenorth> profit and crap
18:52:28  <frosch123> you can somewhat fake it by adding two settings: "always keep shared orders in the same group", "automatically create new group on vehicle construction"
18:52:32  <andythenorth> does it actually matter?  I just look for red numbers next to vehicles
18:53:00  <andythenorth> it = group profits
18:53:32  <frosch123> hmm, or only "always keep shared vehicles in the same group" and then making them appear as subgroups in the tree
18:54:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: you can already see the redness :p
18:54:03  <andythenorth> oh where did ‘protect this group from global autoreplace’ come from? :o
18:54:13  <frosch123> it's as old as the groups?
18:54:20  <andythenorth> it is?
18:54:26  <andythenorth> yet another feature I never knew about
18:54:31  <frosch123> yes, only reason why groups were added
18:54:39  <andythenorth> how interesting
18:54:46  <andythenorth> clearly a very learnable ui :D
18:54:49  <frosch123> the only usage of groups is autoreplace, isn't it?
18:54:55  <andythenorth> for me yes
18:55:16  <andythenorth> so group profit is useful because...?
18:55:42  <frosch123> well, profit is generally not particulary useful
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18:56:29  <fjb> Moin
18:56:36  <frosch123> hola
18:56:44  <fjb> Quak frosch123
18:56:45  <andythenorth> I would happily see groups die in favour of consist management :P
18:56:51  <andythenorth> but then
nothing may be removed
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19:10:44  <peter1138> not sure how those two are exclusive to each other
19:10:55  <andythenorth> me neither
19:11:06  <andythenorth> but we have groups, shared orders, station orders...
19:11:29  <andythenorth> and groups mostly exists for auto-replace?
19:11:42  <peter1138> allegedly
19:11:48  <andythenorth> dunno, it baffles everyone I’ve seen touch it :D
19:12:00  <peter1138> someone thought it was useful to add :p
19:12:08  <andythenorth> it is
19:12:25  <andythenorth> definitely less yak-shaving than fucking around doing it by hand
19:12:27  <peter1138> Anyway, by consist management what do you mean?
19:13:27  <andythenorth> assign each train (or group I guess) to follow a pattern
19:13:55  <peter1138> Still doesn't help me understand.
19:13:55  <andythenorth> changing the pattern causes the trains slaved to it to go to depot and add / remove vehicles etc
19:14:02  <andythenorth> meh
19:14:06  <andythenorth> easier to explain
19:14:15  <andythenorth> you have trains with 3 red wagons
19:14:21  <andythenorth> now you want 5 blue wagons instead
19:14:25  <andythenorth> auto-replace can’t do that
19:14:27  <peter1138> Okay, so consist-based autoreplace, instead of engine/wagon-based autoreplace
19:14:33  <andythenorth> yeah exactly
19:15:04  <peter1138> That might just require replacing autoreplace, rather than group :p
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19:15:19  <peter1138> Maybe we should autoreplace autoreplace.
19:15:27  <andythenorth> only applies to trains mind
19:15:36  <andythenorth> ‘consist managed RVs’ :
19:15:37  <andythenorth> :P
19:15:40  <peter1138> :S
19:16:31  <andythenorth> urgh, if it was done on refit orders, people could do shunting
19:16:37  <andythenorth> what a terrible idea
19:16:41  <peter1138> Haha
19:17:41  <andythenorth> how about do it by writing code in a text window?
19:17:45  <peter1138> Coo, sprite sorter glitches
19:17:47  <andythenorth> then I have to learn regex
19:17:58  * andythenorth has been writing code for nearly 30 years without learning regex
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19:18:22  <peter1138> (with default graphics, no less)
19:21:18  <Wolf01> also set orders schedule to group instead of every train + share orders
19:21:40  <Wolf01> s/group/consist
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19:35:46  <andythenorth> full FIRS is oddly boring
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19:52:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26983 trunk/src/screenshot.cpp (2014-10-09 19:52:07 UTC)
19:52:15  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Account for max_heightlevel when saving heightmaps.
19:57:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26984 trunk/src/heightmap.cpp (2014-10-09 19:57:40 UTC)
19:57:47  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26905) [FS#6134]: Heightlevels must be scaled by number of intervals, not by the value of the highest interval. Otherwise the highest interval becomes non-proportionally small.
19:58:38  <frosch123> <- i still have that local modification
19:58:42  <frosch123> no idea whether it is any good
20:00:04  <planetmaker> I think it is. There's frequent confusion still
20:01:12  <planetmaker> but maybe it's time to rename 'advanced settings' in main menu to 'settings'
20:02:25  <peter1138> Bah, custom image drawing on a button is a pain in the arse
20:02:39  <andythenorth> +1 to just ‘settings'
20:02:39  <planetmaker> or maybe 'Game settings'. But that conflicts somewhat with game scripts
20:02:40  <peter1138> Have to deal with things like click status...
20:02:57  <andythenorth> ‘Game settings’ is tautology
20:03:02  <planetmaker> :)
20:03:04  <andythenorth> peter1138: welcome to my everyday ;)
20:03:08  <andythenorth> mangling javascript :P
20:03:23  <frosch123> <- if any, i would go for plain "Settings"
20:03:37  <peter1138> Adding the widget_data2 is shorter ;(
20:03:43  <frosch123> should we trash the translations for them?
20:03:52  <peter1138> Actually probably not shorter, but much less messy.
20:03:56  <andythenorth> today, write some javascript to mangle off the click handlers on a datepicker, because I can’t be arsed to read the library and find out why it’s applying the click handler in the first place
20:04:14  <andythenorth> monkey monkey monkey patch
20:04:47  <planetmaker> hm... I guess that's what we should do. Do it better than I did with the hover time strings :)
20:05:16  <frosch123> also for the categories?
20:05:24  <frosch123> or only for the "advanced"?
20:05:40  <planetmaker> Only for the 'advanced', I think
20:05:50  <frosch123> so do i :)
20:10:52  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:17:44  <planetmaker> frosch123, what's a good translation of yeti's cargo "PigCow"? :D
20:18:16  <frosch123> hmm, first thought is "Schweinehund" :p
20:18:26  <planetmaker> haha, yeah, was mine, too
20:18:52  <planetmaker> but it actually doesn't fit
20:19:07  <planetmaker> so literal?
20:19:11  <frosch123> how about "Grunzkuh"?
20:19:32  <frosch123> or "Ringelkuh" ?
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20:19:50  <planetmaker> TrÃŒffelkuh ;)
20:19:57  <frosch123> :p
20:20:03  <frosch123> also sounds nice
20:20:21  <planetmaker> worker yard for yeti dudes = arbeitsamt fÃŒr yeti - typen ;)
20:20:27  <planetmaker> so ok, yes :)
20:20:52  <frosch123> s/typen/heinis/ ?
20:21:22  <planetmaker> excellent!
20:22:39  <frosch123> actually, TrÃŒffelkuh is quite awesome
20:25:17  <planetmaker> any idea how to differ translations for Farm and Ranch?
20:25:33  <frosch123> doesn't firs already have that issue?
20:25:49  <planetmaker> maybe, I forgot
20:25:57  <planetmaker> but I think there they don't appear concurrently
20:26:10  <planetmaker> but I'll check, thanks for the reminder
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20:27:23  <frosch123> "Bauernhof (Ackerbau)", "Bauernhof (Milchviehhaltung)"
20:27:34  <frosch123> somewhat meh
20:27:41  <planetmaker> yup :)
20:27:43  <planetmaker> meh
20:28:17  <frosch123> i would go for "Bauernhof" and "Viehhaltung"
20:28:23  <frosch123> or "Viehbetrieb"
20:28:28  <frosch123> actually "Viehzucht"
20:28:38  <frosch123> "Bauernhof" and "Viehzucht"
20:28:50  <planetmaker> well. yeti has all three: Farm, Ranch, and Animal Farm
20:29:12  <frosch123> hmm, what's the difference between ranch and animal farm?
20:30:27  <frosch123> chart says: cowpig, grain, fruit
20:30:37  <frosch123> but they do not quite match with the names you listed
20:31:06  <planetmaker> hm, no, actually.. there's Grain Farm, Animal Farm and Plantation. And then there's the associated station names
20:31:08  <planetmaker> I mixed that up
20:31:38  <planetmaker> the station names are Ranch, Farm, Plantation
20:31:43  <frosch123> grain -> Bauernhof, pigcow -> Viehzucht, fruit -> Plantage
20:32:03  <frosch123> ^^ for industry names
20:32:34  <planetmaker> yup
20:32:54  <frosch123> station names: grain -> Feld, fruit -> Orangerie, pigcow -> Streichelzoo
20:33:06  <planetmaker> lool. That's good
20:34:25  <planetmaker> the dudes working in that animal farm will also go totally wtf when there come hordes of tourists trying to fondle their animals ;)
20:34:33  <frosch123> it feels easier to translate yeti, than a serious set
20:34:41  <planetmaker> it totally does, yes
20:37:50  <andythenorth> bed
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20:40:42  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26985 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-10-09 20:40:36 UTC)
20:40:43  <DorpsGek> -Change: Make settings categories more descriptive.
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20:57:32  <MNIM> Hullo!
20:57:39  <MNIM> long time since i've last been here.
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21:01:23  <peter1138> Meh, these icons are pissing me off
21:03:24  <MNIM> Hmmmmmh.
21:03:36  <Eddi|zuHause> this guy may become a great source of fun over the next years :) [german]
21:06:00  <planetmaker> outch
21:06:26  <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: synopsis for those for whom german is the fourth language?
21:06:57  <planetmaker> I'm sure there is a translation into every European language available :)
21:06:57  <Eddi|zuHause> basically the gist of the video: MEP of the german satire party "THE PARTY" asks the hungarian (right-wing) candidate for commissioner for education, whether "Mein Kamp" becomes mandatory reading in schools
21:07:03  <__ln__> MNIM: they speak very clearly
21:07:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and the answer is basically "some of my best friends are jewish"
21:07:38  <Eddi|zuHause> *mein kampf
21:08:29  <MNIM> that they do. Still, it takes a lot of effort for me to understand spoken german.
21:09:10  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: being a european parliament session, there is probably a translation in every language
21:09:18  <Eddi|zuHause> just not on youtube
21:09:32  <MNIM> haven't used it in a long while.
21:09:53  <MNIM> ...not significantly since high school, really. ^.^;
21:10:21  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, that's the same for me with french and spanish
21:10:57  <Eddi|zuHause> and probably 99% of all people who ever learned a language other than their native language and english
21:11:16  <MNIM> I've been taught dutch, english, french, latin, spanish and german.
21:11:24  <MNIM> obviously i forgot a bit. :P
21:12:40  <MNIM> I can still read most of them fairly well, though. fairly proud of that. :)
21:13:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, reading is obviously easier. especially when they are in the same language family
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21:13:35  <MNIM> Only English remained, and obviously Dutch.
21:14:08  <MNIM> Anyway, question. How does leg profit work in feeder systems?
21:14:39  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: basically it guesses a number, which will be accounted for vehicle profit, but not for your bank account
21:15:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the final delivery will be calculated from beginning to end, which will be awarded to your bank account as if there were no transfers
21:15:26  <Eddi|zuHause> then all the transfer credit is deducted, and the remainder awarded as profit for the last vehicle (may be negative)
21:15:56  <MNIM> I'm running a Cargodist+2CCtrains(NML) game with lots of feeder chains, and i can't figure out why those trains keep running at 200% loss.
21:16:36  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26986 /trunk/src (62 files in 3 dirs) (2014-10-09 21:16:29 UTC)
21:16:37  <DorpsGek> -Change: Rename 'Advanced Settings' to just 'Settings'.
21:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> the leg profit is calculated as if it were a direct route, and multiplied with an arbitrary factor, which you can set in the advanced settings
21:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause> loss at the end is usually either that some intermediate station "overshot" the distance, and the last leg goes partially backwards, or that the last vehicle is slower than the intermediate ones
21:18:27  <MNIM> well, the last legs (small cargo trams that release cargo to industries at a controlled rate) usually runs at a profit.
21:18:42  <MNIM> it's the trains in the middle leg that lose money.
21:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds unlikely
21:19:16  <MNIM> heck, even passenger trains, that don't use any kind of feeding chains, run at a loss
21:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you use "unload" orders
21:19:36  <Eddi|zuHause> or it's the inflation
21:20:00  <MNIM> which they never did before for me in 2CC+cargodist
21:21:10  <MNIM> It's only the trains which run at a loss, so it makes me suspect 2CC
21:21:27  <MNIM> running 2CC trains in NML 1.0-beta 4
21:24:20  <Eddi|zuHause> either the costs are not balanced, or you flipped some "increase the costs" switch
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21:33:49  <MNIM> yeah, that was my suspicion, except for the fact that that particular grf seems to have its parameters disabled.
21:33:50  <MNIM>
21:34:28  <planetmaker> they are not disabled. Generally ingame you cannot change grf config
21:34:44  <planetmaker> it's a thing you need to configure prior to starting the map
21:34:51  <MNIM> oh. wait. i forgot that's disabled by default.
21:35:43  <MNIM> still, all running costs are set to default. :/
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21:43:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it could also be interference with another grf (basecosts)
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21:44:00  <Supercheese> Poor settings, no longer advanced...
21:44:43  <peter1138> Hmm
21:45:04  <Eddi|zuHause> reminds me of "ppor pluto"
21:50:10  <planetmaker> <-- poor poor :)
21:51:49  <MNIM> no basecost grfs of any kind. oh well. set scenario_developer true and halved the 2cc train running costs.
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21:55:33  <frosch123> night
21:55:37  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
21:55:40  <peter1138> these icon things are annoying
21:55:50  <peter1138> they have offsets to centre the sprites
21:56:10  <peter1138> (which are scaled)
21:56:22  <peter1138> and offsets in the code to pad the buttons
21:56:25  <peter1138> (which are not scaled)
21:56:31  <peter1138> add together and it all goes wrong
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22:04:45  <MNIM> yea. just halving the running costs makes the trains run even, and all the others ran a profit already.
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23:09:24  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone remind me of the reason why the title game is loaded twice?
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23:48:44  <Pikka> and did those feet
23:49:42  <peter1138> dance magic dance
23:50:02  <Pikka> exactly
23:50:37  <Pikka> zbase has built-in 2x gui, innit
23:50:47  <Pikka> I guess that means I'm FORCED to make my own base set :/
23:51:52  <peter1138> i think planetmaker mentioned removing that
23:56:28  <peter1138> i lost my pedal :(
23:57:17  <peter1138> found it :D
23:57:35  <Pikka> huzzah

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