Log for #openttd on 15th October 2014:
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01:53:42  <MTsPony> Rubidium: actually i was just messin with my wifi settings ;) i run an irc app in the background with background manager :p
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05:42:57  <andythenorth> @seen danmack
05:42:57  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 12 hours, 52 minutes, and 1 second ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
05:43:04  <andythenorth> the usual
05:43:09  <andythenorth> moin Pikka
05:44:43  <V453000> hyhyhyhyhhyhyhyhyhy
05:45:08  <andythenorth> bonjour V
05:45:20  <V453000> what up
05:46:29  <andythenorth> trams up
05:46:39  * andythenorth considers heli-trams
05:46:57  <V453000> XD
05:46:59  <V453000> wetrail trams?
05:47:07  <V453000> dayum height levels so high
05:47:17  <andythenorth> 255 is definitely enough
05:49:04  <V453000> hm the two best iron horse trains are quite ugly andy :(
05:49:15  <V453000> no specular highlights etc
05:49:26  <V453000> you should whip your slave
05:51:29  <andythenorth> the double juice and screamer?
05:51:35  <V453000> exactly
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05:52:25  <andythenorth> such horse
05:53:48  <V453000> just dont forget to whip the slaves so they do a better job :P
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06:22:55  <planetmaker> bon jour
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06:24:27  <V453000> hy jour
06:26:15  <Pikka> what what what
06:27:25  <Pikka> where's the 64bpp horse?
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06:31:43  <Supercheese> 2048bpp
06:31:52  <Pikka> easily
06:32:13  <andythenorth> busy making trams innit
06:32:15  <Supercheese> the more baconsperpig the better
06:32:27  <Supercheese> 8 bacons is not enough
06:32:47  <andythenorth> should I animate the rivets on these trams?
06:33:07  <Pikka> at 48fps
06:33:25  <Supercheese> I'm no so sure, if they get animated they may complain about their lot in life
06:33:39  <Supercheese> "Why do I have to hold this panel on? I would much rather be in Cancún thank you very much."
06:34:25  <Supercheese> then they'd form a union and petition for wage increases. Or well, wages in the first place.
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06:35:22  <Supercheese> No, best they stay un-animated
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06:41:40  <andythenorth> Pikka: ¿feel like renderising this?
06:41:46  <andythenorth> or I could just finish drawing it
06:42:06  <Pikka> on a scale from 1 to 10, do I feel like rendering it?
06:42:23  <Pikka> compared to preparing for my group presentation tomorrow, probably.
06:42:36  <Supercheese> Eesh, group presentation
06:42:40  <Pikka> how's the drawing going?
06:42:59  <V453000> XD
06:43:05  <V453000> Pikka makes it RELATIVE
06:43:14  <andythenorth> I am hacking a HEQS sprite
06:43:29  <Supercheese> 'ware the axe when hacking
06:43:35  <andythenorth>
06:44:10  <Pikka> pretty :)
06:44:26  <Pikka> for all your granular needs
06:46:01  <andythenorth> 50t of uncountable pourables
06:46:09  <andythenorth> can’t make the bonnet / cab work right though
06:46:13  <andythenorth> and the trailer scares me
06:46:21  <andythenorth> I hate proportions on / \ views
06:46:30  <andythenorth> normally just copy someone else’s
06:46:59  <Pikka> ew
06:47:39  <peter1138> Copy TTD's proportions.
06:47:45  <peter1138> Or Pikka's
06:48:36  <V453000> almost makes me want to draw something but too much work
06:48:41  <V453000> 3D ftw
06:50:06  <andythenorth> V453000: draw me a truck?
06:52:04  <V453000> NO.
06:52:11  <V453000> I cant draw a truck? :d
06:52:17  <V453000> only did tranez
06:52:34  <V453000> guess it wouldnt be that hard
06:52:43  <V453000> but you dont want a truck to look like a slug do you
06:52:47  <V453000> damn that could be awesome
06:57:16  <andythenorth> slug truck
06:57:22  <andythenorth> not in my set, but maybe in yours?
06:57:38  <V453000> am not makenth RVz yet
06:57:43  <V453000> probably not anytime soon :P
06:59:21  <andythenorth> hurgh
06:59:23  <andythenorth> full FIRS is dumb
06:59:31  * andythenorth just saw the minimap industry view
07:00:09  <V453000> remove everything
07:00:12  <V453000> disable features
07:00:15  <V453000> dying
07:01:11  * andythenorth just switch to basic FIRS
07:01:13  <andythenorth> problem solved
07:01:22  <V453000> :
07:01:22  <V453000> )
07:01:28  <V453000> temperate one looks best to me
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07:12:26  <peter1138> BAD FEATURES: multiple (uncooperative) vehicle newgrfs...
07:13:33  <andythenorth> ?
07:15:27  <peter1138> dynamic_engines
07:19:58  <andythenorth> not at this time of day
07:20:02  <andythenorth> not enough coffee
07:20:12  <supermop> opposite problem here
07:20:19  <andythenorth> ho
07:20:26  <andythenorth> I’ll just nick the cab off one of Dan’s trucks
07:20:27  <andythenorth> solved that
07:20:42  <andythenorth> most of my sprites are stolen
07:20:47  <andythenorth> way more effective
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07:36:42  <peter1138> Derp
07:41:50  <supermop> can a house be composed of multiple sprites (other than ground sprite and foundations)?
07:42:11  <peter1138> They have to be.
07:42:39  <supermop> realsprites that is
07:42:57  <planetmaker> yes, supermop
07:43:13  <supermop> for example, one sprite for the four walls, and another for the roof on top of them?
07:43:43  <planetmaker> in principle yes. But that doesn't make much sense as you won't see two of the four sprites
07:43:52  <planetmaker> s/sprites/walls
07:44:06  <peter1138> Better to use 1 sprite. Less work for the game.
07:44:30  <supermop> so a house could have one sprite for facade and one for rear of house, and a third for the roof
07:44:51  <planetmaker> yeah, it's better if you made the grf such that you assembled the house into one sprite in the pre-processing stage during grf compilation
07:45:08  <supermop> but here's the thing:
07:45:09  <planetmaker> but yes, you can do that what you suggest
07:45:39  <supermop> if i want to have a generic terraced house as is common here
07:46:17  <planetmaker> then you need side wall, front wall and roof
07:46:17  <supermop> the bodies of all the houses are more or less the same, with only some details of the facade and roof gable differentiating them
07:47:09  <supermop> the few basic variations one sees lead to hundreds of possible combinations, more than enough to give a house set some variety
07:47:21  <planetmaker> anyhow: you can compose a house from arbitrary sprites
07:47:22  <supermop> but rendering that many houses gives a huge grf file
07:47:33  <peter1138> Each variation would need its own custom layout anyway.
07:47:42  <planetmaker> so using a few basic shapes with some decorations drawn on top which are tailored to the basic shapes might be a good idea
07:47:44  <peter1138> So you might as well just combine the sprites.
07:48:23  <supermop> having 4 house bodies, 8 facades, and 3 roofs that are combined by the game lets me have lots of vareity in a small file?
07:48:55  <supermop> or am i confused?
07:48:58  <planetmaker> supermop, "small file" is not a quality criterion
07:49:17  <supermop> to be honest i want to render fewer times
07:49:28  <planetmaker> how important is it whether your grf is 5 MByte or 7?
07:49:33  <planetmaker> or 10?
07:49:46  <supermop> isn't pinapple 160 or so?
07:49:52  <andythenorth> it’s important that it’s not 100s
07:50:10  <planetmaker> Yes, it is. Takes me a few 10 seconds to download. Do I care?
07:50:22  <peter1138> YETI is 160MB.
07:50:34  <andythenorth> how big is Zbase?
07:50:36  <peter1138> Pineapple is 200MB :D
07:50:50  <peter1138> 328MB
07:51:18  <planetmaker> 313MB
07:51:18  <peter1138> But ok, yes, you can do that.
07:51:33  <supermop> ok
07:52:08  <peter1138> You might even be able to use registers and the like to avoid needing hundreds of layouts.
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07:53:20  <peter1138> Basically that is loading the CPU instead of memory.
07:53:22  <supermop> other goal i had was to have some kind of switch in the nml so that when building terrace house A or whatever it picks facade Y or Z based on something, random, or tile coordinates or whatever?
07:53:29  <planetmaker> supermop, the point is, it's easier to programme. And easier and faster for OpenTTD itself, if it doesn't need to compose each house of many sprites.
07:53:30  <peter1138> (How much CPU, I don't know)
07:53:41  <planetmaker> and cpu is mostly the limiting factor in OpenTTD
07:54:55  <supermop> other option is to write some script for rhino to randomly composite house parts
07:55:44  <planetmaker> supermop, you would not even need to do that in your renderer. Just have the renderer create the parts. And combine the parts in a simple 2D image processing programme
07:56:21  <planetmaker> thus no need to render zillion houses, just a bit composition in post-processing by combining different layers or hower you go for combining different house parts to a single sprite
07:56:43  <peter1138> Hmm, 100MB in a running game.
07:56:53  <peter1138> Meanwhile, firefox is at 1GB :o
07:57:05  <peter1138> gnome-shell is 961MB... but that's clearly some memory leak
07:57:06  <planetmaker> see. We can bloat our sprite cache by another factor of 10 :)
07:57:23  <supermop> hah
07:57:34  <peter1138> rhythmbox 310MB... pulseaudio 213MB
07:57:41  <peter1138> why the fuck is everything so bloated these days
07:58:03  <supermop> the metabolist in me was just fantasizing about dynamically/randomly generated buildings
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07:59:18  <planetmaker> supermop, it's well possible. So don't let us stop you :)
08:00:05  <supermop> it's really TTo's fault as the nakagin building in the original graphics got me interested in metabolist architecture as a kid in 94
08:01:19  <argoneus> good morning train friends
08:01:19  <supermop> now i find myself so taken with the movement that i've made three pilgrimages to the real building and try to shoehorn metabolist ideas into any hobby project i come up with
08:02:10  <planetmaker> :D
08:02:24  <planetmaker> good enough reason, I say
08:03:03  <supermop> so it's CS's fault i got a degree in such a silly profession
08:03:20  <supermop> or simon foster's?
08:04:02  <supermop> i think it is time for a bite to eat and a beer at the pub
08:04:20  <supermop> appropriately named Tramway Hotel
08:04:54  <supermop> i'll have more stupid questions in an hour or so
08:07:43  <V453000> supermop doing them buildings? :)
08:08:51  <andythenorth> huzzah
08:08:54  <andythenorth> sprite theft ftw
08:09:18  <peter1138> Lowres sprites ;(
08:11:15  <LordAro> just zoom out
08:11:34  <peter1138> Then they're lowres and invisible.
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08:54:45  <andythenorth> bah
08:54:50  <andythenorth> \ / view compression
08:54:59  * andythenorth is never sure what’s right
08:55:32  <supermop> ok
08:55:36  <supermop> beer consumed
08:55:57  <supermop> andythenorth: beer is right
08:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the \ / views are the "master"
08:56:35  <supermop> V453000: sort of yes
08:56:47  <Eddi|zuHause> the | –– views are distorted
08:58:03  <supermop> mostly out of a sense that documenting local vernacular architecture will some how look like i did something worthwhile while here in the addenda of my portfolio
08:58:22  <peter1138> Yes, \ / should be considered canon.
08:58:31  <supermop> so mostly bullshitting as it were, which my profession is founded upon
08:58:44  <peter1138> Forget the 32 pixel bullcrap that we got foisted with :S
08:59:17  <andythenorth> hmm
08:59:30  <andythenorth> but everyone draws the — first :P
08:59:42  <supermop> i didnt really plan on rendering before talking the other evening though - i find getting textures and lighting right to be a huge pain
09:00:12  <V453000> actually I always start with /
09:00:13  <V453000> always
09:00:24  <V453000> - can get anything done
09:00:37  <supermop> i've only drawn buildings so me as well
09:00:37  <V453000> \ and / is the tough part
09:00:44  <V453000> XD
09:00:55  <andythenorth> yes
09:00:59  <andythenorth> fricking hate them
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09:01:05  <V453000> supermop textures and lighting is easy
09:01:16  <V453000> you just put one global light and done
09:01:24  <V453000> texturing is more tedious, depends on the building
09:01:25  <peter1138> Also that PixelTool doesn't help.
09:01:32  <V453000> for box-ish things it is super fast
09:01:42  <andythenorth> also, for articulated trucks (trailer overlaps hauler), should I use short vehicle lengths?
09:01:44  <V453000> non-box things can get a little bit complicated
09:01:44  <supermop> finding good free high res textures that don't repeat in an obvious way is tricky
09:01:46  <andythenorth> or just dibble the offsets?
09:01:59  <V453000> yeah, hence I bought membership at
09:02:20  <supermop> in school i would draw in ink or charcoal buildings i had modeled in rhino for presentation
09:03:08  <supermop> i also can't get my head round how things are 'skinned' in more conventional games
09:03:18  <planetmaker> cgtextures is non-free :(
09:03:47  <supermop> the skins always look distorted in a way that i don't know how anyone would produce them correctly
09:03:52  <V453000> skinning is generally meant to be rigging, look for mapping
09:03:53  <V453000> yeah
09:03:56  <V453000> unwrapping UVW
09:04:03  <V453000> planetmaker, good things are not for free, yes.
09:04:11  <V453000> they have free mode where you get lower resolutions
09:04:12  <V453000> might suffice
09:04:34  <supermop> ive gone out to take photos of bricks before actually
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09:04:44  <planetmaker> their license is explicit in being non-free
09:04:51  <V453000> that is an option bug getting it to tile is not very easy
09:05:00  <V453000> quite
09:05:06  <planetmaker> but if good stuff is not free, maybe we should start charging for OpenTTD.
09:05:17  <planetmaker> 45€ might be appropriate per copy. Updates 5€ each
09:05:28  <planetmaker> buy a developer license for 200€ / year
09:05:39  <V453000> that is something different I think
09:05:45  * andythenorth hates everything to do with offsets
09:05:47  <planetmaker> get updates included in that, though. And preview of next version. It's exactly the same thing
09:06:20  <V453000> you *can* search through other websites and find tileable high-res textures
09:06:29  <V453000> OR you can pay to someone who bases his living on creating them
09:06:32  <V453000> what is so bad about it
09:07:09  <planetmaker> I would pay for access to the site. The bad thing is I may not freely use the textures
09:07:10  <Rubidium> planetmaker: don't forget the "owners" of bananas vetting each and every upload
09:07:29  <planetmaker> Rubidium, sure, 30% goes to us on all income from newgrfs. Good thinking
09:08:00  <V453000> re-using these textures to make them free would defeat the purpose of selling the site membership
09:08:18  <planetmaker> V453000, thus it's not the same thing. You not only pay for the service, but you're not even free to use the things to find as you see fit
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09:08:40  <V453000> I believe you can use them as you see fit, you just cant assign them a free license
09:08:47  <V453000> if I understand it correctly
09:09:16  <planetmaker> which means I can't use them as I see fit. It restricts my freedom to share the stuff I do as I see fit
09:09:23  <Rubidium> sounds like the Model-T Ford. You can get it in any colour you like, as long as it's black
09:09:29  <planetmaker> yeah
09:09:47  <V453000> :D
09:10:06  <V453000> that is the same as if it was legal to buy a music CD and re-distribute it freely
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09:10:59  <V453000> open licensing is great for things you create, but for things you purchase it just doesnt make sense
09:11:03  <planetmaker> yeah. we actually do that with openttd. you can distribute it freely. People do that with a lot of software.
09:11:16  <planetmaker> err, that doesn't make sense, V453000
09:11:29  <Rubidium> V453000: but you're not buying music. Buying music is for people with loads of cash, e.g. Michael Jackson bought the Beatles music. You can merely hope to buy a license to play the music
09:11:51  <V453000> yes because you Create it, you didnt Buy it from some source which makes a living out of getting money from it.
09:12:19  <V453000> fine, so I am buying license to merely use the textures
09:12:39  <V453000> I still dont see why should I ever be able to re-distribute them freely
09:13:11  <V453000> what is the difference between that and piracy?
09:13:15  <supermop> if you use them in a render and distribute that freely, it would be a violation
09:14:02  <planetmaker> V453000, ok, so we just continue to sell openttd? why should we distribute it freely?
09:14:30  <V453000> yeah that is questionnable supermop
09:14:33  <planetmaker> we make a programme. they make a texture. same thing really
09:14:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the "creator" of music is often distinct from the autotuned puppet that jumps up and down on the stage
09:14:39  <V453000> planetmaker which source did you buy it from
09:15:12  <V453000> as I said, things you create makes perfect sense to make open source
09:15:14  <andythenorth> why don’t we sell OpenTTD?
09:15:22  <Rubidium> buying has nothing to do with whether you may (re)distribute something
09:15:27  <V453000> but if I sell something, why should I allow people to give it to anybody else freely?
09:15:36  <planetmaker> V453000, why? cgtextures just made those textures, too. So they could share it for free, too?
09:15:40  <V453000> of course I want other people to buy it the same way from me
09:15:56  <V453000> sure, that is true
09:16:45  <V453000> that is just the difference of openttd being a hobby and him creating textures being a job
09:16:46  <Rubidium> for example, there are quite a few libraries for which you can basically buy a "do whatever you want with it"-license, but the free one is GPL-ish
09:16:52  * andythenorth is baffled
09:16:56  <andythenorth> what are we arguing about?
09:16:57  <V453000> hm :)
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09:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause> topics are overrated.
09:17:30  <Rubidium> and to be honest, those libraries are ways for people to earn a living
09:17:51  <Eddi|zuHause> just reply to random line, without context
09:18:49  <andythenorth> I like the blue one
09:19:00  <V453000> I am not sure what are we arguing about either
09:19:05  <V453000> I dared buy textures
09:19:13  <V453000> -> problem
09:20:05  <Rubidium> having said that, plenty of people in the open source software business are earning more than enough to sustain their way of live by providing paid services
09:20:05  * andythenorth hmms
09:20:18  <andythenorth> I am not setting custom offsets for every fricking articulated truck
09:20:26  <andythenorth> there has to be a better way
09:20:29  <V453000> you are andythenorth :)
09:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a better way: proper templates
09:21:06  <Rubidium> also... buying textures isn't a problem, but depending on the license it can become a major pain-in-the-arse for others to help you with your models and/or to get the "compiled" by some public system (assuming NewGRFs)
09:21:08  <supermop> andythenorth: sell offsets as service
09:22:20  <V453000> yes it basically means I cannot give you my full source, only sprites
09:22:40  <V453000> OR a white model
09:23:14  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that also means you can't release your set under GPL at all
09:23:19  <V453000> which I dont
09:23:54  <peter1138> andythenorth, make them all the same size, then the offsets will be the same
09:23:57  <V453000> I believe CC BY SA allows not to give full source
09:24:03  <peter1138> andythenorth, also, sprite aligner :D
09:24:18  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: which also means no GPL set can include YETI graphics
09:24:25  <V453000> yep, too bad
09:24:34  <andythenorth> all trucks can have standard sizes
09:24:36  <peter1138> No yetis :S
09:24:50  <V453000> then those sets have to use CC BY SA
09:24:57  <V453000> which I dont see why would that be a big problem
09:25:24  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: have you ever followed a license discussion on the forum?
09:25:26  <peter1138> Ewww iroon
09:25:30  <peter1138> -o
09:25:35  <V453000> not to a large extent, no Eddi
09:25:42  <V453000> but what do you want me to do differently?
09:25:51  <V453000> spend ages searching for textures? no thanks
09:26:05  <V453000> release newgrf without open license? nice
09:26:21  <peter1138> Wait... you paid for those textures?
09:26:25  <V453000> of course
09:26:29  <peter1138> Even the grass?
09:26:33  <V453000> of course
09:26:35  <V453000> everything
09:26:38  <peter1138> Because that grass is damned ugly.
09:26:48  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: they pretty much all go "we can't ask person X anymore about the license, we need to throw out their stuff and start over"
09:26:50  <V453000> well that is mainly because it is not used very well peter
09:26:51  <peter1138> I assumed that was a placeholder for decent grass :S
09:26:53  <andythenorth> if I went renderised, I’d just buy models and textures
09:27:05  <andythenorth> otherwise, why?
09:27:15  <V453000> yes Eddi because their stuff was without any license, not with GPL or CC
09:27:17  <andythenorth> making decent textures takes *fricking* ages
09:27:28  <andythenorth> easily as long as making pixel art
09:27:34  <andythenorth> and then models have to be made too
09:27:53  <andythenorth> the reason most of the rendered stuff looks shit is that it’s very time consuming to do well
09:27:55  <V453000> modeled / mapped / textures / displacement maps / ...
09:28:03  <andythenorth> rigged for animation
09:28:09  <V453000> yes not even mentioning that
09:28:11  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: anyway, the main difference between CC and GPL is that with CC you're better off when you are the only person working on it, and GPL better if multiple people work on it
09:28:29  <V453000> idk we are two working on YETI, what problem do we have?
09:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: when you leave and another person wants to take over
09:29:12  <V453000> like wants to create models instead of me
09:29:16  <V453000> sure that would be a problem
09:29:17  <andythenorth> otoh
09:29:36  <andythenorth> last year I was going to buy ~£2000 of stock photos, to use in a product
09:29:38  <andythenorth> but
09:29:45  <andythenorth> although the license included ‘for internet use'
09:29:54  <V453000> at the same time what person will buy 00 3ds max and 00 Vray
09:30:00  <andythenorth> it also forbade uploading it to any server or electronic retrieval mechanis,
09:30:04  <andythenorth> mechanism *
09:30:07  <V453000> to create newgrfs for openttd
09:30:09  <andythenorth> so ummm
09:30:22  <V453000> paying 0 for textures is the last expense then
09:30:37  <V453000> without all those 3 things my source is worthless to anybody who wants to continue
09:30:43  <Rubidium> V453000: you definitely need to figure out copyright assignment, otherwise things get really fishy with respect to who is allowed to release and such
09:30:56  <V453000> ?
09:31:05  <andythenorth> who are the textures licensed to?
09:31:08  <V453000> me?
09:31:14  <andythenorth> ok, so you’re allowed to release
09:31:17  <andythenorth> probly
09:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that's like asking "who will buy a computer just for working on a GPL project"
09:31:20  <V453000> well the only person who has my credentials to bananas I believe is me
09:31:29  <andythenorth> you and the NSA
09:31:29  <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: yeah that is true
09:31:30  <argoneus> that is what NSA wants you to believe
09:31:35  <andythenorth> beat you
09:31:39  <Rubidium> V453000: after all, you claim CC-BY-SA for your bits, the other person does as well... so neither of you is legally allowed to merge both sets of bits into one thing
09:31:58  <argoneus> andythenorth: I blme me having twice as long of a sentence
09:32:00  <argoneus> blame*
09:32:03  <V453000> so what would you suggest Rubi? :d
09:32:03  <supermop>
09:32:05  <supermop> ?
09:32:15  <argoneus> don't use creative commons for code
09:32:20  <andythenorth> argoneus: mine was longer, but the NSA took some bits out (redaction)
09:32:35  <andythenorth> I would suggest coffee
09:32:52  <andythenorth> and fixing my offsets
09:32:54  <andythenorth> thanks
09:33:04  <V453000> XD
09:33:52  <Rubidium> V453000: some sort of license between the two of you that you may do at least modifications and compilations of eachothers work for the project, and that you both may distribute the complete set under license X to others
09:34:09  <supermop> V453000: you can avoid issues with non-free texture by just individually modeling each brick and granual of motar
09:34:16  <V453000> that sounds quite reasonably Rubidium
09:34:41  <V453000> I will discuss it with Sylf
09:34:46  <andythenorth> the problem with you lot, is that you know if you don’t help me, I’ll go and figure it out myself :(
09:34:48  <Rubidium> V453000: it probably doesn't need to be much, but it's kinda required to stay legal. Another trick could be copyright assignment, but that's probably more cumbersome especially decising who gets the copyright
09:34:57  <V453000> andythenorth:  XD
09:35:04  <V453000> I understand, thanks for the hint :)
09:35:14  <argoneus>
09:35:17  <argoneus> I like this site
09:35:57  * andythenorth back to bed
09:37:28  * V453000 lunch
09:44:23  <supermop> anyone want to play some mhl mp?
09:46:54  <Sacro> pbimttd?
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09:48:24  <supermop> ?????
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09:51:00  <Eddi|zuHause> don't even try...
09:51:08  <peter1138> :D
09:51:44  <peter1138> Play by sending a floppy disk in the post...
09:51:57  <peter1138> Apparently people used to do that. I never bothered.
09:53:34  <supermop> i once tried a 'null modem' game of tto with my neighbor
09:54:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i heard it didn't have any desync checking at all
09:55:22  <Eddi|zuHause> so you could happily play on with a person having an airport on one computer and not having it on the other computer
09:56:46  <SHOTbyGUN> soo, how can I make this game harder :D ? I set ALL costs to double with BaseCosts mod, but still got 100milj+ cash after one day of playing :(
09:57:33  <SHOTbyGUN> he hard patch is out of date am I right?
09:57:51  <andythenorth> hard is boring
09:57:51  <Eddi|zuHause> enable infrastructure maintenance
09:57:56  <andythenorth> try a goal script instead
09:57:58  <SHOTbyGUN> its enabled already =)
09:59:02  <SHOTbyGUN> maybe I am just genious playing this game =)
09:59:19  <SHOTbyGUN> but I guess I try that goal script next :o
09:59:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the game is just terrible at balancing money
10:00:12  <Eddi|zuHause> find another way to measure your success :p
10:00:23  <andythenorth> also, it would be tedious to not make money
10:02:40  <supermop> andythenorth: i find that true in my personal experience
10:03:22  <SHOTbyGUN> yeah, money works great until you git 10milj+ ... I think taxing mod would be great where you could tax income 10% and tax profit 10%-50% that would balance the multiplayer experience =)
10:04:01  <SHOTbyGUN> I suppose there is no API for editing money with NewGRF:s :( ?
10:04:23  <SHOTbyGUN> what I looked there was just few hooks
10:04:42  <argoneus> would it be possible
10:04:51  <argoneus> to implement a "max station walking" config option?
10:04:59  <argoneus> so my station could be 20 tiles wide, but max 1 tile of station walking
10:05:16  <argoneus> so maximum 1 gap in the stations
10:05:25  <Eddi|zuHause> SHOTbyGUN: generally that kind of thing would be a job for a game script
10:05:43  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no
10:06:07  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: there is no way to check if a station is contiguous?
10:06:44  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: at least nobody ever implemented one
10:07:21  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: but what would that solve? you just end up with people building chains of road stops...
10:07:35  <argoneus> well, right now
10:07:41  <argoneus> if the max distance is 20
10:07:57  <argoneus> oh, wait
10:07:58  <argoneus> you are right
10:08:09  <argoneus> people could just make millions of bus stations in cities
10:08:21  <argoneus> for the same effect
10:08:37  <argoneus> I just don't like it
10:08:43  <argoneus> when people make a railroad station outside the city
10:08:49  <argoneus> and a few bus stations all around the city
10:08:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the world is not fair.
10:08:58  <argoneus> is there no way to prevent that?
10:09:04  <Eddi|zuHause> no
10:09:20  <Eddi|zuHause> except making the station spread ridiculously low
10:11:30  <andythenorth> station walking is a valid tactic
10:12:05  <Eddi|zuHause> also, you use the term "station walking" incorrectly. "station walking" (before directly making disjoint stations possible) was a way to extend the station by placing road stops to your desired location, and then removing the road stops inbetween
10:12:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the "walking" part referencing these in-between steps
10:12:27  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, probably some people don't know about ctrl :)
10:12:48  <argoneus> wait
10:12:53  <argoneus> how far could you station walk?
10:12:57  <argoneus> I mean
10:13:00  <andythenorth> up to max spread
10:13:04  <peter1138> Whatever station spread is set to.
10:13:06  <argoneus> if you removed the road stations inbetween
10:13:10  <argoneus> then station spread lowered again
10:13:10  <argoneus> no?
10:13:16  <Eddi|zuHause> no
10:13:18  <argoneus> ohh
10:13:19  <argoneus> wait
10:13:23  <argoneus> you had to keep the one next to the industry
10:13:24  <argoneus> silly me
10:13:28  <Eddi|zuHause> "spread" is the distance between the outermost tiles
10:13:44  <argoneus> hm
10:13:45  <peter1138> Remove spread all together.
10:13:48  <argoneus> I thought it was station walking
10:13:55  <argoneus> because people could walk between the stations
10:13:57  <argoneus> for the same effect
10:13:57  <peter1138> Make catchment area based on the number of station tiles.
10:14:20  <peter1138> Then the only reason to spread is to make transfers easier
10:14:31  <supermop> argoneus: that would be a neat and expensive feature for cargodist
10:15:00  <argoneus> I wish cargodist actually did something
10:15:07  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: to visualize the "walking" part: in the beginning you were only allowed to have one bus stop and one truck stop per station, so you had to alternate between bus and truck stop for "walking"
10:15:08  <peter1138> before drive-through road stops, station walking was hard
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10:16:34  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: or do it like train fever: model each passenger from source to destination and back :p
10:16:58  <peter1138> cargodest?
10:17:14  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: even worse than that
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10:17:36  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: a passenger calculates the time that his route takes him (including walking and waiting for the train)
10:17:55  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: if it's > 10 minutes (of game time), the route is discarded, and a shorter route is tried
10:18:26  <peter1138> heh
10:19:44  <Eddi|zuHause> if a train travels for 5 minutes, and a train leaves every 2 minutes, that leaves 3 minutes for walking
10:20:16  <supermop> thats a pretty nice commute
10:20:39  <supermop> although i had it beat when i lived in chinatown
10:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause> cargo follows a similar logic, but i think i read it doesn't consider the waiting time
10:22:19  <argoneus> I just thought of something
10:22:28  <argoneus> you know how trains get old and need replacing, right
10:22:31  <argoneus> why not railroads too?
10:22:46  <argoneus> I'd imagine it might look cool to see sprites of rusty railroads that are barely used
10:22:52  <argoneus> and trains crashing randomly when going over them
10:23:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i would immediately disable that feature...
10:23:17  <argoneus> people disable trains breaking down too
10:23:21  <argoneus> but it might be fun
10:23:22  * argoneus shrugs
10:23:39  <supermop> also drivers should be careless and pass signals at danger if you are not careful in hiring and training them
10:23:49  <argoneus> they already stop in the middle
10:23:56  <argoneus> if the stars align
10:24:06  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: "fun" as in "every 10 years, drag&drop the 'upgrade rail' tool over the whole map"?
10:24:08  <supermop> as well as providing regular company picnics to boost morale
10:24:17  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: you do that with trains already
10:24:20  <argoneus> there's a feature for that
10:24:22  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: no of course not
10:24:45  <argoneus> well, then
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10:24:51  <supermop> you spend 10 years of every 10 years with the MOW crew closing sections of track
10:24:58  <argoneus> railroads get rusty if no train passed over them in the past year
10:25:08  <argoneus> then you'll also have help for load balancing
10:25:22  <argoneus> or in the past X years
10:25:33  <argoneus> though that sounds like a bitch to code
10:25:38  <argoneus> actually not really
10:25:44  <argoneus> that sounds really simple
10:25:58  <argoneus> just add a counter to every railroad tile and set it back to 0 when a train passes over it
10:25:59  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there's an old "grass over unused tracks" patch
10:26:01  * argoneus shrugs
10:26:03  <supermop> then a labor dispute breaks out while working on the mainline and the workers strike for 3 months leaving you with a single track and incorrect signalling
10:26:45  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i'm reading a bit of frustration :p
10:26:50  <argoneus> supermop: why does that sound russian
10:27:04  <supermop> in the mean time, all of your passengers get fed up with the delay and buy cars to just drive to work
10:27:26  <argoneus> hm, you just reminded me
10:27:29  <argoneus> does simcity have railroads?
10:27:31  <argoneus> or just roads
10:27:41  <argoneus> 4 that is
10:27:50  <argoneus> (the best one)
10:27:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:28:28  <supermop> soon your company manager picture is weeping as he is left penniless - the board of directors is dismissing him over the poor handling of the situation
10:28:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but station capacity is a pain, because it makes no difference of whether people get on/off, or pass through, or just are in the general area
10:29:12  <argoneus> that's another good feature
10:29:28  <argoneus> every 10 years, all company owners vote on the weakest director, and whoever receives most votes is closed down
10:29:52  <argoneus> I should go to EA with my ideas
10:30:55  <argoneus> an actual question, though
10:31:07  <argoneus> have there ever been thoughts about connecting the website account to the game account?
10:31:11  <argoneus> or generally the game having an account system
10:31:15  <argoneus> with experience, levels, etc.?
10:31:24  <supermop> citizens celebrate as all of the 'company founder' statues are torn down
10:31:26  <argoneus> (along with keeping the "guest name" option, as it doesn't alter gameplay)
10:31:39  <argoneus> or is this something no one cares about
10:32:24  * argoneus would enjoy the "have 5000 trains" achievement
10:32:42  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: at any time in history, a central authentication system was discouraged for various reasons
10:33:25  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: is that mostly because of developer work needed and central server maintenance costs?
10:33:28  <andythenorth> stuff like XP is meaningless, due to combinatorial explosion of maps, settings, newgrfs, GS
10:33:58  * andythenorth -> nap time
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10:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: user inconvenience, data security, maintenance efforts, "the evil people are taking over", ...
10:35:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the list of reasons why not to do it is loooooong
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10:55:11  <peter1138> argoneus, "game account" ?
10:55:28  <peter1138> Yeah, what Eddi|zuHause said.
10:55:49  <peter1138> Also, consider infrastructure maintenance to be paying for track upkeep.
10:56:13  <argoneus> now that I think about it
10:56:21  <argoneus> servers can implement their own account tracking if they want, right
10:56:27  <argoneus> it's not hard, the things are there
10:56:49  <peter1138> Not really.
10:57:31  <argoneus> you join
10:57:38  <argoneus> server queries you for password if name is taken
10:57:44  <argoneus> you pm the password, it either accepts or kicks you
10:57:49  <argoneus> and stats are tracked server side
10:57:51  <argoneus> can't it work like this?
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10:59:26  <peter1138> Possibly.
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11:00:40  <planetmaker> actually T B voiced such ideas of allowing user login. But time, sweet time :)
11:01:02  <argoneus> T B?
11:02:26  <planetmaker> well, the guy who made the AI / GS framework
11:02:40  <planetmaker> and a lot of other stuff
11:02:58  <argoneus> oh
11:03:31  <planetmaker> who wrote bananas, who wrote web translator and the whole website ;)
11:03:58  <argoneus> sounds like a true bro
11:05:48  <planetmaker> partially. rather a true brain
11:06:24  <argoneus> ohhh
11:06:29  <argoneus> so that's what TB is
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11:06:52  <liq3> o.o. increased height is crazy. 255 high maps wow.
11:07:06  <argoneus> can anyone post a picture?
11:07:14  <argoneus> I can't play right now (at work), but I am curious
11:07:21  <liq3> of the increased height?
11:07:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd probably settle for 64 or somesuch
11:07:37  <argoneus> yes liq3
11:07:59  <V453000> tbh the extra heights in extreme values just create straight up mountain
11:08:04  <liq3> yeh sure
11:08:08  <liq3> yeh lol.
11:08:11  <V453000> would be nice if it was more varied like still hill, but not all the time to the top
11:08:18  <V453000> great start though
11:08:28  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2016.%20Sep%201922.png <- very old game i had
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11:08:54  <liq3> argoneus:
11:09:00  * andythenorth needs a bigger screen
11:09:02  <andythenorth> for the bigger GUI
11:09:08  <argoneus> oh wow
11:09:10  <peter1138> andythenorth, hahaha
11:09:11  <argoneus> nice
11:09:15  <V453000> well yeah thats just bullshit
11:09:19  <argoneus> liq3: what does it look like zoomed in?
11:09:20  <peter1138> andythenorth, same :(
11:09:21  <argoneus> can you even see the top?
11:09:22  <V453000> land not useful for anything
11:09:27  <liq3> argoneus: no :D
11:09:31  <peter1138> 2x is just a little bit too much at 1680x1050 :(
11:09:33  <V453000> can create some spectacular arctic scenarios yeah
11:09:41  <andythenorth> rivers are still crap
11:09:42  <peter1138> it's better overall though
11:09:55  <andythenorth> peter1138: industry window fills my screen
11:09:57  <peter1138> Rivers should be carved.
11:10:06  <peter1138> Try the airport construction window.
11:10:10  <andythenorth> I have 1280x960 or something
11:10:11  <argoneus> it's funny how you can just delte a river
11:10:13  <argoneus> just delete it
11:10:14  <argoneus> and it's gone
11:10:26  <argoneus> but the part before and after still exists
11:10:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it flows underground!
11:10:47  <liq3> argoneus: maybe they put giant tunnels underground :D
11:10:56  <andythenorth> oh cdist
11:10:59  <andythenorth> you are funny
11:11:26  <argoneus> mfw andythenorth has went to bed and to nap about 7 times in the past hour
11:11:30  <peter1138> Frustrating :(
11:12:03  <andythenorth> I have a mine with 648t output
11:12:05  <peter1138> Cdest Cdest!
11:12:14  <andythenorth> cdist is routing most of that to a 60t train
11:12:17  <V453000> yacd yacd
11:12:18  <andythenorth> instead of the 3x 240t trains
11:13:07  <andythenorth> there must be some trick to win at this
11:13:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Warning: reality distortion field detected. V is pro "destinations"
11:13:24  <argoneus> like not transport one coal to multiple power plants
11:13:25  <liq3> I feel like orders really aren't featureful enough for cdist. :<
11:14:11  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: I've been wondering for a while now
11:14:23  <argoneus> is zuHause your status, like bob|afk, or is it part of your name? (and what does it mean?)
11:14:43  <andythenorth> hmm
11:14:45  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: it's the location of the computer that i'm using.
11:14:49  <V453000> sarcasm Eddi
11:14:54  <Eddi|zuHause> means "at home"
11:15:01  <V453000> but yacd was considerably less retarded than cdist
11:15:03  <argoneus> oh
11:15:19  <liq3> what's yacd?
11:15:21  <V453000> except the ultimate mechanism was again station-station-station connection, even more than cdist XD
11:15:25  <andythenorth> yacd is dead
11:15:29  <andythenorth> somehow my config got blitzed, effect of distance got set back to 100%
11:15:30  <argoneus> sounds like yet another cargo distribution
11:15:31  <argoneus> or something
11:15:35  <andythenorth> it was
11:15:38  <andythenorth> exactly
11:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> no
11:15:49  <Eddi|zuHause> it was destinations
11:15:52  <Eddi|zuHause> not distribution
11:15:59  <V453000> bad regardless XD
11:16:01  <andythenorth> now it’s just dead
11:16:08  <argoneus> reminds me of JASS from warcraft3
11:16:16  <argoneus> just another scripting system
11:16:29  <argoneus> what's with these uncreative names
11:16:38  <V453000> but having cargo want somewhere was considerably nicer than havint it want somewhere After you give the possibility
11:16:40  <peter1138> YAPF... yet another path finder...
11:16:55  <Eddi|zuHause> "destinations" is "people want to go from A to B, let's figure out how to get there". and "distribution" is "X% of people go in this general direction, let's see where they end up"
11:16:55  <argoneus> I mean look at programming languages
11:16:58  <peter1138> yacd was nicer
11:16:59  <argoneus> you find creative names like
11:17:07  <argoneus> err, C.. wait, C#, no...
11:17:11  <andythenorth> maybe I have to delete this small train
11:17:31  <andythenorth> mostly with cdist I find that point-to-point is required
11:17:37  <andythenorth> e.g. primary only goes to one secondary
11:17:40  <argoneus> I found
11:17:44  <argoneus> that cargodist works great for passengers
11:17:46  <argoneus> but not so great for cargo
11:17:59  <peter1138> I don't think I have it enabled for cargo, indeed.
11:17:59  <andythenorth> it’s worth it for not having to do transfers manually
11:18:04  <peter1138> Only passengers & mail.
11:18:05  <Eddi|zuHause> at some point i really wanted to make a language called "Db", because "C#" feels so unnatural to my musical education
11:18:08  <andythenorth> but you have to totally change play style
11:18:14  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: but i wouldn't rent a house from which i could not easily get to my work
11:18:17  <andythenorth> and FIRS really needs re-designed for cdist
11:18:23  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: you must like F# then
11:18:36  <supermop> to an extentreal humans only want to go where they can get to
11:19:10  <andythenorth> it’s also weird how cdist will leave cargo sitting at a transfer station not loading
11:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: as i once put it: give me a tune with 8 'b' over one with 4 '#'
11:19:20  <andythenorth> even though there is a vehicle loading for the next hop
11:19:33  <andythenorth> I wouldn’t mind, except I don’t know what the win condition is
11:19:38  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: I don't understand
11:19:43  <andythenorth> I don’t know how I’m supposed to make this work
11:20:02  <andythenorth> oh it’s not waiting
11:20:04  <andythenorth> I’m on planned view
11:20:08  <supermop> andythenorth: ive never had much trouble with firs and cd
11:20:25  <argoneus> I wonder
11:20:35  <argoneus> would it be possible to implement something like a "schematizer" ?
11:20:38  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: in musical notation, the same notes can have different names. so "C-sharp" is the same not as "D-flat"
11:20:46  <Eddi|zuHause> *note
11:20:53  <argoneus> like, it makes a graph with all the active industries, and colored links between them according to players
11:20:57  <andythenorth> I’m ging to delete a train
11:21:02  <argoneus> so you could tell from a graph who is transporting what where, would that be feasible?
11:21:07  <supermop> i have a bit more trouble with all of the food i've made solely of cardboard boxes
11:21:29  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: oh
11:21:42  <argoneus> so X# is always Db?
11:21:44  <argoneus> Yb *
11:21:51  <Eddi|zuHause> no
11:21:51  * argoneus has no concept of musical theory
11:22:14  <Eddi|zuHause> some notes only have a half-tone between them, so E# = F, and Fb = E
11:22:39  <argoneus> why would anyone use Fb instead of E?
11:22:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it happens
11:23:12  <andythenorth> hmm
11:23:14  <argoneus> anyway
11:23:21  <andythenorth> deleting the train worked, cdist only has one destination for this cargo now
11:23:24  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: the towns in your screenshot look a bit absurd
11:23:30  <andythenorth> so balancing is a non-issue
11:23:35  <argoneus> is it difficult to parse ottd savegames?
11:23:38  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes for notational purposes it is better to switch the F->Fb once, and then have alternating Fb and Eb, instead of switching between E and Eb
11:23:41  <argoneus> like, is the format any difficult to read?
11:24:01  <supermop> not as much as the sawmill hanging on the side of a precipice
11:24:04  <argoneus> as in, could one find what cargo player X is transporting from parsing a savefile?
11:24:23  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: the format is simple, but a lot of required metadata is only documented in the code, not part of the savegame
11:24:25  <argoneus> or is savefile just raw compressed info about tiles etc
11:24:49  <argoneus> oh
11:25:42  <peter1138> It's binary.
11:26:17  <argoneus> doesn't sound like a problem if you have the spec
11:26:56  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: it's probably easier to start up openttd, and ask it stuff about the loaded savegame via the admin port
11:27:19  <peter1138> The F# song
11:27:24  <argoneus> I just had an idea for a program
11:27:28  <argoneus> that analyzes a savegame
11:27:35  <argoneus> and makes a graph or such
11:27:39  <argoneus> sounds difficult but possible?
11:27:52  <argoneus> I mean
11:28:05  <argoneus> there already is a program that analyzes a savegame and lets you ride and make trains on it
11:29:31  <SpComb> I want something that exports giant-screenshot pixel coordinates for various towns, stations etc on the map
11:29:32  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that is really painful :p
11:32:03  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: there have been patches that export graphs from a savegame.
11:32:14  <Eddi|zuHause> or minimap screenshots
11:32:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and stuff
11:33:45  <argoneus> I guess everything has been done :(
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11:37:49  <peter1138> Urgh, I still have connections from IE6 on XP...
11:38:53  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: just reject those :p
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11:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> btw, the fun really starts when you use double-b or double-# :p
11:43:56  <V453000> DDs are always fun
11:44:07  <V453000> oh b
11:44:09  <V453000> hm damn :-D
11:44:14  <Eddi|zuHause> quite :p
11:44:29  <V453000> two Bs are good too.
11:45:01  <Eddi|zuHause> except that case is relevant here
11:45:39  <peter1138> I tend to not bother trying to play it if it's got doubles...
11:46:01  <argoneus> check my dubs
11:46:59  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the typical keys i dabble in have 2,3 or 4 b. in extreme cases 0 or 6 b
11:47:11  <Eddi|zuHause> which means # are really really rare
11:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and puzzle me every time they appear
11:49:35  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a time where even a lack of Eb would throw me off, but i *think* i got past that :p
11:49:56  <Eddi|zuHause> lack of Bb is still tricky
12:01:50  <planetmaker> argoneus, that programme exists. It's OpenTTD itself ;)
12:07:17  <supermop> night
12:07:20  <peter1138> Don't you mean OpenTDD?
12:07:26  *** supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
12:11:07  <andythenorth> flickering ships are flickering
12:12:17  <peter1138> Then they're too long, or the offsets are wrong.
12:12:26  <andythenorth> too long
12:12:44  <andythenorth> and there’s about 5 of them trying to occupy same position
12:13:04  <andythenorth> due to bunching
12:13:33  <andythenorth> also, annoying shrinking towns
12:13:45  <andythenorth> town ‘grows’
12:13:48  <andythenorth> but with smaller buildings
12:13:49  <andythenorth> yay
12:13:59  <andythenorth> well that’s one solution to cdist
12:14:13  <andythenorth> ‘too many pax’ is solved
12:14:28  <peter1138> SQUID? SQUID is pretty good with sizes and bounding boxes.
12:14:44  <andythenorth> the big paddle steamer
12:15:41  <peter1138> Yeah
12:16:13  <andythenorth> it’s fine except when they bunch
12:16:16  <andythenorth> and they bunch all the time
12:16:21  <peter1138> Timetables
12:16:24  <andythenorth> don’t work
12:16:30  <andythenorth> I spent ages following the instructions
12:16:34  <peter1138> full-load
12:16:38  <andythenorth> full load works
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12:17:17  <andythenorth> need FIFO ships
12:17:44  <peter1138> multiple docks
12:18:08  <andythenorth> there was a patch for that
12:18:10  <andythenorth> I saw it
12:18:19  <peter1138> Yeah, someone definitely had a patch for it.
12:18:49  <andythenorth> hmm
12:19:06  <andythenorth> I declare Road Hog playable, as long as you only want the trams.  So until 1940.  And no cargo sprites
12:20:17  <andythenorth> hmm
12:20:21  <andythenorth> game is still fun
12:22:33  * peter1138 ponders retrying it.
12:22:52  <andythenorth> someone want to translate Iron Horse into English?
12:22:57  <andythenorth> en-gb
12:23:01  <andythenorth> I have it all in US
12:23:07  <andythenorth> due to reasons
12:24:57  <andythenorth> if bouys could be docks
12:33:41  <andythenorth> game is too addictive
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12:58:04  <peter1138> :o
13:02:57  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@] has joined #openttd
13:11:54  <Flygon_> peter1138: That's strangely pretty
13:11:55  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
13:32:59  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: the shadows are all wrong
13:33:32  <peter1138> Well...
13:34:07  <Eddi|zuHause> some shadows are from the left, others from the top left, and others from the top right
13:34:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and others are missing completely
13:35:26  <Eddi|zuHause> also, there is no sane reason why there would be a park on a dock :p
13:40:21  <Eddi|zuHause> "operator of nuclear power stations wants to go out with a bang!"
13:41:30  <Eddi|zuHause> (or: "vattenfall sues german government over decision to quit nuclear power, demands 4,7 Mrd €")
13:43:13  <Pikka> need ships that don't/can't/try not to go through each other. :D
13:43:37  * Pikka had a thought about a pathfinder that makes ships slow down and try to avoid each other, and coastlines.
13:43:56  <peter1138> :S
13:44:17  <peter1138> But it's a train game
13:44:46  <Pikka> so, like, ships go slower when they're near a shore. and try and pass each other to the... I want to say right.
13:45:21  <Pikka> congested waterways = slower boots. it's like the "different speeds on canals and 'ocean'" idea, only more organic and more sensible. and more "realistic". :)
13:45:41  <Pikka> I know, it's just a notion. I don't suppose I'll do anything about it.
13:45:44  <Pikka> :P
13:46:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: there was such a pathfinder on the forums. afair this just made the ships behave weirdly and block each other
13:47:06  <Pikka> that just means the implementation was bad. not necessarily the concept. ;)
13:47:38  <Pikka> anyway, I must to bed
13:47:59  <Pikka> tomorrow my group is going to attempt to do about 3 weeks worth of work in 2 hours, before our major presentation for the semester. :)
13:48:16  <Eddi|zuHause> no amount of implementation will solve your problems with a not well-thought concept
13:48:38  <Pikka> have you ever known me to have a not-well-thought concept? ;)
13:48:52  <Eddi|zuHause> have i ever known you?
13:49:10  <Pikka> to have a not-well-thought concept.
13:49:15  <Pikka> except regearing
13:49:24  <Pikka> and all those other ones
13:49:31  <Pikka> goodnight :)
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13:54:13  <Flygon> RE: The ship thing
13:54:26  <Flygon> The insane idea would be to implement railway style shipping lanes
13:54:32  <Flygon> Signals, crossing loops, and all
13:54:41  <Flygon> For areas that're thinner than 2 tiles wide obviously
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13:57:20  <Eddi|zuHause> if only there were "exactly one" insane idea
14:01:43  <planetmaker> Flygon, but that would be unrealistic ;)
14:02:01  <Flygon> Screw realism
14:02:14  <Flygon> Trains in OTTD don't shunt the loco to the rear when they reverse :D
14:02:29  <planetmaker> it would rather be realistic to add different buoys. Which indicate starbord and portside of passages etc :P
14:03:37  <peter1138> Different buoys? Just go either side of one :p
14:04:16  <planetmaker> :) also might add new disaster: a ship which runs into ground when passing buoy on wrong side. Would amount to breakdown or so :P
14:04:49  <planetmaker> green buoys are those with the pointy end :P. The red ones have a flat top. Tendentially ;)
14:05:30  <liq3> Hey, what does the "passengers/mail last month" mean on the town window?
14:05:33  <Flygon> Unsure if taking me for ride :P
14:06:39  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
14:07:07  <peter1138> andythenorth will doit.
14:07:32  *** Pinkbeast [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
14:08:36  <andythenorth> it’s done
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14:15:02  <Eddi|zuHause> liq3: same as the "production last month" of industries
14:15:12  <liq3> Eddi|zuHause: good to know. thought so.
14:15:36  <Eddi|zuHause> base production modified by station rating
14:15:47  <argoneus> (who here hype for warlords of draenor?)
14:16:16  <Eddi|zuHause> never heard of that
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14:33:12  <peter1138> Ah, I remember the problem with multistop docks...
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14:54:26  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: you don't play videogames?
14:54:46  <argoneus> I thought most everyone has heard about world of warcraft by now :<
14:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> not ALL of them...
14:55:48  <peter1138> I've heard of WoW, but that's about it.
14:56:54  <andythenorth> hmm
14:56:56  <andythenorth> Warcraft 1
14:56:59  <andythenorth> my liege
14:57:02  <argoneus> if I may ask, just out of curiosity
14:57:04  <argoneus> how old are you guys?
14:57:11  <andythenorth> old
14:57:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i dabbled in warcraft 3 for a little bit
14:57:26  <argoneus> I'm just wondering if there's a generation gap or if our hobbies are so far apart or both
14:57:38  <Eddi|zuHause> but the whole "quickly build up" style of gameplay is not for me
14:57:52  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: you should give the Anno series a spin
14:57:59  <argoneus> or europa universalis
14:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i've not tried WoW at all
14:58:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still terrible in path of exile...
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14:59:13  <argoneus> ah, PoE
14:59:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i have next to zero reflexes :p
14:59:16  <argoneus> now you're talking
14:59:21  <argoneus> wait, how old are you?
14:59:35  <Eddi|zuHause> not as old as peter and andy :p
14:59:46  <argoneus> are we talking first digit >= 3?
15:00:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm old enough to have played civilization 1
15:00:25  <argoneus> I have played old games too :<
15:00:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant when they were new games :p
15:00:43  <argoneus> like commander keen
15:01:15  <andythenorth> I was too young for commander keen
15:01:23  <andythenorth> because nobody had a PC then
15:01:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never really gotten into commander keen
15:01:43  <andythenorth> also we were too busy playing Lotus Turbo Esprit
15:01:46  <andythenorth> and Chocks Away
15:02:20  <argoneus> the first game I fell in love with was age of empires 1
15:02:21  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: by that definition, yes, i'm old. :p
15:02:22  <argoneus> and then ttd
15:02:36  <argoneus> is anyone here first digit >= 4?
15:02:43  <Eddi|zuHause> certainly
15:02:46  <argoneus> oh, wow
15:02:48  <argoneus> even 5?
15:02:59  <Eddi|zuHause> probably
15:03:08  <argoneus> I'll rather not ask further
15:05:03  <andythenorth> not me
15:05:04  <andythenorth> yet
15:06:13  <Flygon> Man
15:06:19  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
15:06:29  <Flygon> Hard to claim playing Ragnarok Online when it was new as being old :U
15:06:48  <Flygon> Insert joke about how that also uses .grf files here
15:08:03  <peter1138> I played Commander Keen, when it was cool.
15:08:37  * Rubidium feels old compared to andythenorth
15:11:52  <Rubidium> argoneus: there are even people in here with children where first digit >= 4
15:12:14  <planetmaker> <argoneus> [15:02:20] the first game I fell in love with was age of empires 1 <-- haha. By that definition... the first game I loved so much that I bought it was Civ I. On four state-of-the-art 3.5" floppy disks
15:12:31  <argoneus> like, person here that has a child that is >= 4?
15:12:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it's really not that hard to have 4 year old children :p
15:12:42  <argoneus> oh
15:12:43  <argoneus> fuck
15:12:53  * argoneus got tricked
15:13:23  <argoneus> oh also
15:13:26  <argoneus> unreal tournament 1999
15:13:29  <Rubidium> anyone remember Stunts? I guess that's about the first game I remember liking a lot
15:13:29  <argoneus> such a great game
15:13:45  <argoneus> Rubidium: I played that!
15:13:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: where you built race tracks and then ran on them?
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15:14:01  <argoneus> I played a lot of NES too :D
15:14:02  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yeah,t hat one
15:14:21  <argoneus> excite bike and battle city best
15:14:22  <Rubidium> oh... it's even pre Civ I and definitely pre AoE
15:14:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that was fun, but i always crashed on the "screwdrivers" :p
15:14:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't actually _buy_ that many games :p
15:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i bought Settlers, and TT, and then nothing for a long time...
15:15:50  <NGC3982> What Settlers?
15:15:56  <Eddi|zuHause> the original.
15:16:09  <argoneus> I only played S3 :<
15:16:11  <NGC3982> I just bought a new computer and tried out the 7th instance of the game.
15:16:15  <NGC3982> It's actually pretty good.
15:16:17  <argoneus> you done fucked up
15:16:20  <argoneus> S7 is not settlers
15:16:25  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, buy? what is that?
15:16:36  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the one with the terrible always-on-drm?
15:16:36  <argoneus> S7 is a strategy game with a zone control system
15:16:41  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: yes
15:16:45  <argoneus> it's not settlers
15:16:48  <NGC3982> Pretentious nostalgia doesn't coun't.
15:16:49  <argoneus> if you want something recent
15:16:50  <Eddi|zuHause> who would ever buy that?
15:16:53  <NGC3982> Also: Warez
15:16:55  <argoneus> play the 2nd anniversary one
15:17:01  <argoneus> no NGC3982, it's not nostalgia
15:17:05  <argoneus> it's NOTHING like the old settlers
15:17:08  <argoneus> 1-6 are way different from 7
15:17:19  <Eddi|zuHause> s2tng was nice
15:17:20  <NGC3982> The last Settlers game i bought was that Kings thing
15:17:20  <argoneus> play settlers 2 10th anniversary or settlers 4
15:17:24  <NGC3982> I think it's ..4?
15:17:27  <argoneus> 5
15:17:28  <argoneus> or 6
15:17:30  <NGC3982> Romans, Vikings, etc's.
15:17:30  * Rubidium thought games like CoD were the newer versions of Settlers
15:17:33  <NGC3982> Non-3D.
15:17:40  <argoneus> oh
15:17:42  <NGC3982> Or 2D, as the elders call it
15:17:43  <argoneus> then could've been 4
15:17:55  <argoneus> 4 is great
15:18:00  <argoneus> 10th anniversary is good
15:18:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i played some demo of 3
15:18:02  <argoneus> 7 is not settlers
15:18:05  <Eddi|zuHause> it was terrible
15:18:15  <argoneus> are you sure it was 3
15:18:17  <argoneus> I loved 3 :(
15:18:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i went back to playing 2
15:18:19  <NGC3982> It was 4 i ment
15:18:26  <NGC3982> I guess it's "really" 3D
15:18:28  <Rubidium> NGC3982: proper 2D, or 2D-ish like OpenTTD (compared to proper 3D)
15:18:37  <NGC3982> 2D-ish is more correct, sure.
15:18:56  <peter1138> Doom 2D :D
15:19:06  <NGC3982>
15:19:08  <argoneus> wolfenstein.... 3D!
15:19:13  <NGC3982> There we are.
15:19:16  <NGC3982> That's <3.
15:19:17  <argoneus> NGC3982: yeah that's 4
15:19:44  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the whole path management thing was missing
15:19:47  <NGC3982> But yes, except for the DRM (wish i did not have to take part in), the game itself is really good.
15:20:39  <argoneus> S7 is a fine game
15:20:41  <argoneus> but it's not settlers
15:20:42  <argoneus> :<
15:20:45  <NGC3982> :|
15:20:47  <peter1138> OpenTTD is not TTD
15:20:51  <argoneus> no
15:20:57  <NGC3982> NGC3982 is not a galaxy
15:20:57  <argoneus> it's like
15:21:04  <argoneus> if they made starcraft into a turn based game
15:21:05  * peter1138 ponders changing docks
15:21:07  <argoneus> and called it starcraft 3
15:21:11  <argoneus> would it be starcraft?
15:21:25  <NGC3982> argoneus: Yes, it would. I get your point, but games do actually change.
15:21:34  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: you mean like when they made warcraft from a RTS into a RPG?
15:21:35  * argoneus shrugs
15:21:52  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: W3 is a RTS with RPG elements
15:21:53  <NGC3982> Isn't Metroid for Gamecube still a Metroid game?
15:22:18  <argoneus> tthe thing is
15:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> or didn't they make command&conquer into an FPS game?
15:22:28  <argoneus> with settlers 1-6, you had your territory, you could buiold everywhere in it, or expand it
15:22:47  <argoneus> in S7, there's a zone based system, instead of territory, so you claim zones
15:22:51  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: yes, renegade
15:22:53  <NGC3982> Blizzard themselves are quite clear with the distinction on that Warcraft != World of Warcraft
15:22:55  <argoneus> it was a good game
15:23:02  <NGC3982> Since there has been some buzz about a new Warcraft game.
15:23:12  <argoneus> a new warcraft game is not happening
15:23:14  <NGC3982> As a direct follow-up to the Frozen Throne add-on.
15:23:16  <argoneus> the lore has been butchered too much
15:23:28  <NGC3982> E3 seemed to think otherwise
15:23:35  <NGC3982> But i have no idea, really.
15:23:40  <argoneus> blizzard promised project titan too
15:23:44  <argoneus> and now it's cancelled
15:23:49  <NGC3982> What'zat.
15:23:55  <argoneus> it was supposed to be a new MMO
15:24:02  <argoneus> in development since like 2008 or so
15:24:05  <argoneus> they cancelled it a month ago
15:30:04  <planetmaker> peter1138, rather add to docks :) So that they can be freely built like train stations
15:30:38  <peter1138> Yeah, that might be an idea.
15:31:02  <planetmaker> probably it needs dock tiles and non-dock tiles
15:31:11  <peter1138> Build dock on land, any water adjacent to it can be docked at?
15:31:17  <planetmaker> thus multi-dock is the hidden feature beneath this idea :P
15:31:37  <peter1138> multistop dock is a red herring i think
15:31:48  <planetmaker> peter1138, I guess the devil is in the path finder part in it :)
15:32:02  <peter1138> planetmaker, yes. actually doing multistop for docks is easy
15:32:17  <planetmaker> ...but?
15:32:25  <peter1138> but the path finding isn't
15:33:28  <peter1138> At least, as I remember it :)
15:33:39  <andythenorth> bouys as docks
15:33:47  <peter1138> All the multistop stuff (and train platforms too) relies on landing on the stop directly
15:33:49  <andythenorth> solves the inland-flat-docks pony
15:33:54  <peter1138> but ships have to stop next to it
15:34:09  <peter1138> newdocks
15:34:13  <andythenorth> state machine
15:34:58  <peter1138> So I'm thinking... keep a list per station of dockable tiles as well
15:35:08  <planetmaker> peter1138, well. That could actually be solved. By explicitly introducing a dock tile which must be water
15:35:10  <peter1138> then you can keep the traditional dock
15:35:24  <peter1138> yeah true could be that indeed
15:35:56  <planetmaker> savegame conversion for funky edge cases might be tricky (where the dock is surrounded by only shore)
15:35:58  <peter1138> problem with that is you can current place docks and have part of the docking area blocked
15:36:39  <planetmaker> But I'd really like a solution where you can define the loading places next to stations
15:36:57  <planetmaker> could make for interesting harbours.
15:37:18  <planetmaker> dunno what you mean with 'have part of the docking area blocked'
15:37:27  <planetmaker> you mean some water part made inaccessible?
15:38:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd much rather have airport-like dock layouts
15:40:46  <planetmaker> one-stop big ports?
15:41:26  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, one port with multiple loading bays
15:41:56  <planetmaker> tile-based like stations is nicer, I think
15:42:01  <andythenorth> +1
15:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> +1 to what?
15:42:16  <andythenorth> tile based
15:42:23  <andythenorth> having duly considered the options
15:42:25  <andythenorth> in depth
15:42:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with "tile based" is that ships are longer than a tile, so they will probably overlap again
15:43:11  <Taede> make the loading 'tiles' 2x1?
15:44:28  <planetmaker> for instance
15:44:36  <andythenorth> are we solving overlapping?
15:44:45  <planetmaker> or solve that in the first place
15:45:11  <andythenorth> I just want to be able to bridge peninsulas without mass land lowering
15:45:18  <andythenorth> also inland docks
15:45:19  <planetmaker> also we now have so much height we could introduce a global sealevel variable ;)
15:50:15  <peter1138> planetmaker, please
15:50:24  <peter1138> Pointless, but still.
15:50:32  <peter1138> MineOpenTTD.
15:50:42  <peter1138> Make sealevel at 64.
15:51:15  <peter1138> airport-like docks really wouldn't work
15:51:30  <peter1138> Too restrictive in regards to location
15:51:37  <argoneus> is there a maximum theoretical map size?
15:51:49  <argoneus> after which the game would crumble
15:52:07  <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of "theory"?
15:52:17  <Taede> 4kx4k can make the game crumble already, depending on the machine
15:52:27  <Eddi|zuHause> speed? memory?
15:52:33  <argoneus> speed
15:52:38  <argoneus> you can always buy more memory
15:52:39  <argoneus> :^)
15:52:41  <Rubidium> even 64x64 can be dead slow
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15:53:17  <Eddi|zuHause> there were some versions of ECS where even without any vehicles, a 2kx2k map was unplayably slow
15:53:24  <argoneus> oh wow
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15:53:42  <Rubidium> just try to play in a completely emulated environment (e.g. ppc pearpc instance on a x86 processor)
15:53:45  <planetmaker> peter1138, the point would be andy's pony of extending water types to distinguish coastal and high sea
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15:54:43  <peter1138> huh?
15:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause> my 386-DX25 was so slow that with 80 trains on a 256x256 map, TT was basically unplayable
15:54:59  <peter1138> Oh, water depth, right.
15:55:01  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: you can also "always" buy a faster computer
15:55:04  <planetmaker> yup, that
15:56:07  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: don't forget to quote "faster" ;)
15:56:54  <Rubidium> arguably a quite old GPU could get way more performance in full screen with 8bpp palette animation than you ever can with a recent GPU
15:57:14  <Rubidium> even though a recent GPU has one or two orders more Hzs
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15:57:26  <peter1138> Yes, DGA mode was stupidly fast.
15:57:39  <peter1138> But DGA is no longer possible.
15:57:56  <andythenorth> well
15:58:03  <andythenorth> I got bored of the water types extension
15:58:06  <andythenorth> but feel free :)
15:58:23  <peter1138> Can we have triremes that get lost at sea?
15:58:31  <andythenorth> probly
15:58:41  <peter1138> And hoards of barbarians, obviously.
15:59:35  <peter1138> Civ I was the best
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16:07:06  <luaduck> are there any station designs for a 4 lines in roro?
16:07:20  <luaduck> 2 lines is ez but 4 lines is stumping me
16:07:40  <planetmaker> you mean 4 incoming tracks or 4 station tracks?
16:08:35  <Eddi|zuHause> 4 lines is easy, just build the same thing again
16:09:02  <luaduck> 4 incoming lines
16:09:04  <NGC3982> A thing i have been thinking of
16:09:17  <NGC3982> Oh, wrong channel.
16:09:58  <andythenorth> peter1138: did your multistop idea mean one ship per stop?
16:10:01  * andythenorth assumes that
16:10:25  <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't make a lot of sense otherwise
16:11:31  <peter1138> no
16:11:35  <planetmaker> luaduck, easiest build one station for each line without mixing. And do a station exit with a choice onto the four lanes
16:11:48  <luaduck> hmm, was what I was thinking too
16:11:49  <luaduck> ta
16:12:08  <planetmaker> 7 or 8 station tracks per incoming line
16:12:15  <planetmaker> going to get huge :)
16:12:58  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't mean the 28-32 tracks must be next to each other
16:13:25  <planetmaker> no. But leaving much space wouldn't make it smaller ;)
16:14:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no, but it could be one of those "interwoven" designs, where two separate stations are in front of each other
16:14:21  <planetmaker> could. But I don't see how that would help
16:14:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so one station with 16 tracks, and another station with 16 tracks, and tunnels underneath
16:15:10  <planetmaker> uh... no. That will lead to serious congestion under most configurations
16:16:00  <peter1138> 3D Layers, stations above...
16:16:05  <Eddi|zuHause> alternatively, 2 station tracks+1 through track
16:16:18  <Eddi|zuHause> would become 24-ish wide
16:16:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but probably not as long
16:17:25  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but i don't see how it would congest, if you split 1 line into 4 tunnels
16:17:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and each tunnel into 2 station tracks
16:18:55  <peter1138> Hmm, so, either I have replace water tiles with a dockable "water" station tile, or maintain a list of dockable tiles within the station struct.
16:19:11  <peter1138> I think the latter would be more compatible with existing docks.
16:20:36  <peter1138> Or forget about it.
16:20:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd try the former
16:21:27  <Eddi|zuHause> upon loading a savegame, you can automatically convert tiles next to old docks
16:21:48  <peter1138> Which may or may not be land.
16:21:58  <peter1138> But I guess that's okay.
16:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, just don't convert land tiles
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16:25:56  <peter1138> Meh, currently I have ships doing circles :D
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16:32:47  <andythenorth> lost trireme innit
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16:40:13  <Eddi|zuHause> just save and reload until it succeeds
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16:40:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you can easily go from africa to south america that way
16:41:11  <peter1138> Hmm, oh, it's only the end-tile that can be docked with
16:41:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that should probably change
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16:42:06  <Eddi|zuHause> especially if you disallow two ships docking at the same place (which you should)
16:44:00  <andythenorth> :(
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16:51:55  <andythenorth> single dock tiles on water
16:52:01  <andythenorth> looks like a bouy
16:52:23  <andythenorth> :P
16:52:42  <andythenorth> if you want jetties and stuff, build rail station tiles
16:52:56  <peter1138> marico
16:53:00  <andythenorth> or that
16:53:05  <andythenorth> except it’s objets
16:53:36  <peter1138> So basically, a dock needs to have water at the end.
16:54:06  <andythenorth> do it as single water tiles, it will :P
16:54:12  <andythenorth> and river docks get solved
16:54:12  <peter1138> But it seems silly doing it that way
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16:57:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the part that's "wrong" for rivers. the water should be on the side there
16:58:17  <peter1138> ?
16:58:49  <Eddi|zuHause> it's next to impossible to put a dock on a river
16:59:17  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to make a large canal area, and then raise some land
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16:59:53  <andythenorth> single water tile dock
17:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause> instead you should be able to just put something on the side of the river where the ships will dock to
17:01:04  <andythenorth> how do you guarantee water?
17:01:11  <andythenorth> what if I bulldoze the water tile?
17:01:21  <peter1138> then you can't dock there
17:01:57  <frosch123> you can also not remove water under buoys
17:02:04  <andythenorth> if water tile, can build arbitrary transfer stations o_O
17:02:06  <andythenorth> at sea
17:03:09  <frosch123> the question is rather whether such docks would have an orientation
17:03:17  <andythenorth> na
17:03:20  <frosch123> i.e. if you have canal - land - canal
17:03:26  <frosch123> can ships dock on both sides?
17:04:13  <frosch123> or does the dock have some specific loading tiles within the neighboured canal/river?
17:04:31  <Rubidium> frosch123: I guess so
17:04:58  <peter1138> then you can't dock there
17:04:59  <peter1138> err
17:05:01  <Rubidium> ship_cmd.cpp:281
17:05:23  <frosch123> Rubidium: weren't we talking about flat docks for rivers?
17:05:32  <frosch123> or did i miss another commit? :p
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17:06:12  <andythenorth> single tile multi-stop docks, with cabeese
17:06:19  <Rubidium> oh... "docks" have a "configurable" offset
17:09:14  <Rubidium> frosch123: you didn't miss any commit
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17:09:35  <peter1138> Hmm, maybe I just found the bug :p
17:09:43  * peter1138 compiles again
17:11:30  <peter1138> Oh, now it just crashes :D
17:14:11  <peter1138> Oops.
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17:35:51  <planetmaker> hm, where can I see the autoreplace protection icon?
17:36:47  <planetmaker> ah... nvm :)
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17:38:24  <planetmaker> peter1138, the size of the tooltip window does not scale with font size at all. That's... funky. It gets too small for some words
17:38:43  <planetmaker> and is not adjusted for widest word either
17:39:08  <peter1138> Yup
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17:42:40  <andythenorth> live spacewalk video is quite interesting
17:42:43  <andythenorth> not much actually happens
17:43:02  <Alberth> I would expect so :)
17:44:01  <andythenorth>
17:46:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27019 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-10-15 17:46:35 UTC)
17:46:47  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:48  <DorpsGek> catalan - 3 changes by juanjo
17:46:49  <DorpsGek> croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
17:46:50  <DorpsGek> romanian - 19 changes by kitguyy
17:46:51  <DorpsGek> russian - 6 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:46:52  <DorpsGek> spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
17:49:40  <andythenorth> hmm
17:49:41  <andythenorth>
17:50:06  <Alberth> ha, a load wants to go straight :)
17:50:11  <andythenorth> well
17:50:34  <andythenorth> the sprites are 5.5/8 long
17:50:50  <andythenorth> but setting the vehicles to 4/8 made them overlap correctly in most views
17:50:55  <andythenorth> but looks bloody awful in turns
17:51:36  <andythenorth>
17:52:45  <andythenorth> thought it would be a nice quick cheat :P
17:52:48  <Alberth> so much truck outside the bounding box!
17:52:50  <andythenorth> so much
17:52:58  <andythenorth> I can’t remember how this is done in HEQS
17:53:00  <andythenorth> probably badly
17:53:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: more turning angles :p
17:54:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: instead of 4+4, make it 2+6
17:54:26  <Eddi|zuHause> or something
17:59:20  <peter1138> Yeah, it's best to put the vehicle inside the BB.
17:59:29  * peter1138 gives up on docks and reverts again.
18:04:54  <andythenorth> sad times :(
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18:10:16  <planetmaker> the error window has the same sizing problem as the tooltip window
18:12:08  <peter1138> Yeah our window system is still all geared up for pixel sizes.
18:14:31  <planetmaker> highscore window is also ugly with 2x fonts
18:15:37  <Alberth> just delete it, together with the score window? :)
18:16:20  <peter1138> We have a high score window? :p
18:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i've never even reached 2050
18:17:20  <peter1138> Ah, it doesn't scale to font size. In that case it would've looked bad with any non-standard font size.
18:17:49  <peter1138> Still, as double ui = double fonts now, that should be easily fixable.
18:19:26  <andythenorth> 2/8 and 6/8 might work
18:19:32  <frosch123> people complained about the difficulty settings missing
18:19:43  <frosch123> but noone noticed that i trashed 4/5 of the highscore lists
18:19:50  <frosch123> or 3/4?
18:20:24  <andythenorth> what went missing? o_O
18:20:52  <frosch123> well, there were separate highscore lists per difficulty level :p
18:21:09  <frosch123> now only the custom and the fake-multiplayer (or something like that) exists
18:23:35  <peter1138> heh
18:23:35  <Eddi|zuHause> who really ever played the standard difficulties?
18:23:54  <frosch123> exactly :)
18:24:26  <Alberth> only with the original program :)
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18:31:43  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r27020 /trunk/src (16 files in 8 dirs) (2014-10-15 18:31:37 UTC)
18:31:44  <DorpsGek> -Cleanup: some coding style consistency improvements (mostly spaces)
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18:49:28  <andythenorth> hmm
18:49:40  <andythenorth> I need an additional set of offsets
18:50:53  <andythenorth> for vehicles that are x/8 long, faking being y/8 long
18:50:57  <andythenorth> fun times
18:51:20  <Alberth> :o
18:51:51  <Alberth> for some reason you always manage to add new layers of complexity :)
18:52:23  <andythenorth> :(
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18:55:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: you know, if you have offsets once, you can adjust them by adding (2,1) to other bounding box sizes
18:55:38  <andythenorth> ?
18:55:46  <andythenorth> I can?
18:55:55  <frosch123> if you have correct offsets for one size, you can compute the offsets for a different size
18:56:02  <andythenorth> I wondered about that
18:56:06  <andythenorth> I was trying to see the pattern
18:56:13  <andythenorth> the patterns seem to be odd
18:56:52  <andythenorth>
18:57:30  <frosch123> <- ottd also shifts positions around
18:57:38  <andythenorth> also bears no relation to in game sprite aligner, I gave up on that
18:59:27  <andythenorth> hmm
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18:59:38  <andythenorth> I’m not compressing \ / views enough in my drawing I think
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19:01:55  <peter1138> You're not compressing -- | views enough
19:02:17  <Wolf01> hi hi
19:02:31  <andythenorth> well
19:02:47  <andythenorth> a – view that is 6/8 should be 24px wide, no?
19:03:11  <peter1138> No because 32px wide was BAD FEATURE
19:03:12  <andythenorth> and then the side of the vehicle in / will measure about 11px or so
19:03:24  <peter1138> Ask pikka
19:04:46  <andythenorth> pikka has views
19:05:33  <andythenorth> HEQS always looks daft because the \ / are too long
19:05:36  <andythenorth> same with Squid
19:06:12  <peter1138> default -- view is 28 pixels
19:06:38  <peter1138> \ is about 14/15 pixels
19:06:43  <peter1138> (for the side)
19:06:56  <frosch123> 16 minus inter-vehicle spacing
19:07:05  <peter1138> Yeah
19:07:39  <andythenorth> hmm
19:07:55  <peter1138> Compare your vehicles in a bounding box to do the default vehicles
19:07:58  <andythenorth> Dan’s sprites have 28px – views matched with 13px / \
19:08:03  <peter1138> And use TTD graphics, not OpenGFX.
19:08:21  <andythenorth> always :P
19:09:31  <peter1138> Also remember for road vehicles / and \ are your priority.
19:09:43  <peter1138> They're less often seen in | and - views
19:09:50  <andythenorth> so default vehicles fit the \ / BB perfectly
19:10:01  <andythenorth> give or take 1px
19:10:07  <peter1138> Yeah, and they're 8/8
19:10:37  <andythenorth> and they’re only 28px or so in – view?
19:10:56  <peter1138> exactly 28px, yes
19:10:59  <andythenorth> hmm
19:11:04  <andythenorth> so they’re not 8/8
19:11:07  <andythenorth> but they are 8/8
19:11:09  <andythenorth> wonderful
19:11:09  <peter1138> but the bounding box goes weird in that case
19:11:11  <peter1138> they're 8/8
19:11:17  <peter1138> 32px is wrong, as i said :p
19:11:23  <andythenorth> so who smoked crack?
19:11:29  <peter1138> sawyer
19:11:54  <andythenorth> well that’s a bugger isn’t it
19:17:23  * andythenorth FML
19:17:26  <andythenorth> redraw all the things
19:18:01  <frosch123> question is though, why are default vehicles 28px? shouldn't they be 23?
19:19:04  <frosch123> @calc sqrt(2)*16
19:19:04  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 22.627416998
19:21:25  <Supercheese> Logic need not apply
19:21:55  <frosch123> pikka should know, he claimed to not have distorted pineapple
19:24:07  <andythenorth> maybe I could just stick to trams
19:24:11  <andythenorth> and trucks without semi-trailers
19:25:26  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, the length of the / view is 8*sqrt(5)
19:28:52  <frosch123> @calc 8*sqrt(5)
19:28:52  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 17.88854382
19:29:10  <frosch123> that makes no sense
19:29:19  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(2)*8*sqrt(5)
19:29:19  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 25.2982212813
19:29:26  <argoneus> \o/
19:29:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but the – view is also weirdly distorted in the original
19:30:52  <frosch123> measuring pineapple confirms my sqrt(2)
19:31:05  <frosch123> i don't know how you get the sqrt(5)
19:31:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i wasn't questioning your sqrt(2), i was questioning your 16
19:31:38  <frosch123> the horizontal width of the train projection in \ direction is 16 pixels
19:32:14  <frosch123> if i rotate the world to a top-down projection that does not change the size of horizontal width
19:32:31  <Eddi|zuHause> each length step is 2 pixels across and 1 pixel up, so the length of the hypothenuse is sqrt(2^2+1^2)
19:32:33  <frosch123> with sqrt(2) you then get the length of the actual vehicle
19:32:53  <frosch123> that length you can then turn to the -- orientation, and rotate the world back to the normal projection
19:33:30  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: 16 is the horizontal extent, you are counting the diagonal distance, but who counts pixels like that?
19:34:02  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone who desires useful proportions
19:35:18  <frosch123> projections do not preserve distances
19:35:37  <frosch123> you are computing a length in a projection, which makes no sense to rotate
19:35:48  <Eddi|zuHause> but we all agree that the / view is the "master" view, which all rotations should be based on
19:36:08  <frosch123> the vehicle is driving in a 45 degree angle, not in the projected 30 degree angle
19:36:23  <Eddi|zuHause> isometry only makes sense if the \ / views are not distorted to begin with
19:37:00  <frosch123> can we agree, that the projection preserves horizontal distances?
19:37:02  <Eddi|zuHause> so you start with the assumption that the vehicle projection in / direction has the same length as the original model
19:37:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no
19:37:20  <frosch123> why?
19:38:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the way the game is modeled, it only makes sense that the x/y/z dimensions are 1:1:0.5
19:38:15  <frosch123> if i rotate the world around a horizontal axis, horizontal distance do not change in the projection
19:38:34  <Eddi|zuHause> all other projections follow from that assumption
19:38:39  <frosch123> why are you adding z? that has no effect at all
19:38:53  <Eddi|zuHause> x is /, y is \
19:39:00  <Eddi|zuHause> z is "up"
19:39:08  <Eddi|zuHause> in 3D model coordinates
19:39:09  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, is right.
19:39:26  <peter1138> pixels across in \ view is not the same as the length of the \
19:39:27  <frosch123> who cares about "up"? it a tile is flat
19:39:55  <frosch123> so, i ask again: can we agree, that the projection preserves horizontal distances?
19:39:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need a projection if there's no "up"
19:40:20  <frosch123> or is there something fishy about the term "horizontal distance"?
19:41:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i wish i could draw a picture...
19:41:36  <andythenorth> I am redrawing a truck
19:41:39  <andythenorth> does that help? :P
19:41:51  <frosch123> well, i just assume that eddi is wrong :)
19:42:00  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: anyway, i disagree. the projection preserves lengths in / and \ direction
19:42:04  <peter1138> And then there's unfixable things, like the -- and | tracks.
19:42:04  <Eddi|zuHause> other things would be weird
19:42:11  <frosch123> my computations result in sqrt(2), which also matches the experimental scales of pineapple
19:42:15  <peter1138> Because they should be wider.
19:42:50  <frosch123> so, if the \ and / views are unaltered, then the -- view should be 22.6 pixels wide
19:43:02  <frosch123> 28 is still too much
19:43:03  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: again, i'm not questioning the sqrt(2)
19:43:28  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i just say, that the width of the -- view should be 22.6
19:43:44  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but sqrt(2)*l is still wrong, if you use the wrong value for l
19:43:55  <frosch123> i use no value for |
19:44:03  <frosch123> i use the horizontal width of \
19:44:13  <Eddi|zuHause> l as in lower case L
19:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> not |
19:44:19  <frosch123> we said, that \ and / are the reference
19:44:45  <frosch123> what is your "l"?
19:44:47  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you assumed the length of the / view is 16, which it isn't
19:45:03  <frosch123> the real length of the vehicle in 3d space, the length of the projection?
19:45:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the length of the / view is 8*sqrt(5)
19:45:12  <Eddi|zuHause> both
19:45:23  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no, i said the ****horizontal**** extent of the \ is 16
19:45:26  <Eddi|zuHause> as the isometric projection preserves lengths along the x and y axis
19:45:35  <peter1138> Nah
19:45:53  <peter1138> Hmm
19:46:08  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: what? lengths on x and y axis are not preserved at all
19:46:24  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that is the very definition of isometric
19:46:39  <Eddi|zuHause> "iso" meaning "the same", and "metric" meaning "length"
19:46:43  <frosch123> they are scaled equally, they are not preserved
19:47:13  <frosch123> the ttd world is created by a rotation aound the horizontal axis
19:47:38  <frosch123> every projection preserves horizontal distances if the plane is only hoizontally rotated
19:47:55  <andythenorth> hmm
19:48:02  * andythenorth did technical drawing at school
19:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that is a very wrong assumption
19:48:50  <frosch123> true, but isometric projections do
19:49:18  <andythenorth> within the rhombus that makes up an iso grid tile, what ellipse would the ends of a rotated line sweep?
19:50:03  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: let's take a square of 16 along the x and 16  along the y axis(and ignore z)
19:50:16  <frosch123> 16 in what space?
19:50:22  <Eddi|zuHause> in 3D space
19:50:22  <frosch123> the real one, or the projected one?
19:50:37  <frosch123> ok
19:51:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the game rotates this so that each length unit of real space gets projected onto the screen as 2 pixel across and 1 pixel up
19:51:16  <andythenorth> ha, those were the days
19:51:18  <andythenorth> many days ago
19:52:06  <frosch123> ah, that's where you are screwing up
19:52:07  <Eddi|zuHause> then say the origin of the square (the bottom) is at pixel coordinates (0,0)
19:52:16  <frosch123> you are mixing world lengths with pixel length
19:52:42  <Eddi|zuHause> then the one corner will be at (32,16) and the other at (-32,16)
19:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so the length of each edge is sqrt(32^2+16) pixels
19:53:16  <Eddi|zuHause> missing a ^2
19:53:25  <Eddi|zuHause> which is 16*sqrt(5)
19:54:25  <frosch123> so you are giving the scale from world coordinates to diagonal pixels
19:54:30  <frosch123> but that was not the question
19:55:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the question was: what's the projection of a circle of radius 8 length units
19:55:27  <Eddi|zuHause> assuming that the length of the x axis is fixed
19:55:53  <frosch123> but the projected circle is not circle
19:55:56  <frosch123> it's an ellipse
19:56:10  <frosch123> main axes are horizontal/vertical
19:56:26  <frosch123> and the one at 30 degree has your 16*sqrt(5)
19:56:43  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's not exactly 30°
19:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc arctan(1/2)
19:57:01  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: 'arctan' is not a defined function.
19:57:05  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/2)
19:57:05  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.463647609001
19:57:11  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/2)*180/pi
19:57:11  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 26.5650511771
19:57:20  <frosch123> doesn't matter, by your logic the vertical length of a | vehicle would also be 16*sqrt(5)
19:58:07  <frosch123> you computed the scale of world units to pixels in \ and / axes
19:58:15  <frosch123> and then claimed that the projection preserves a circle
19:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i said that
19:58:42  <andythenorth> happy times:
19:59:14  <andythenorth> of course, we used to freehand the ellipse :P
19:59:17  <andythenorth> by eye
19:59:29  <andythenorth> because nobody runs a lathe from the iso projection, just the orthographic
19:59:39  <Alberth> like any good draw person :)
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19:59:51  <Alberth> lots of arrows in the latter image :)
20:00:25  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, whatever...
20:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause> last time i did the calculation, i thought "24 pixels is probably more than accurate"
20:01:21  <frosch123> at least we agree that 28 is wrong :p
20:02:43  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it's less wrong than 32 :p
20:03:04  <peter1138> I'm just gonna measure it
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20:03:28  <frosch123> peter1138: i did, pineapple uses 66/47
20:03:44  *** gelignite [] has quit [Quit:]
20:03:47  <frosch123> 66 pixels in -- view, 47 horizontal pixels in / view
20:05:23  <peter1138> 16 \   - 20.6
20:05:46  <peter1138> hm, no that's wrong :)
20:05:51  <peter1138> i was measuring the length,hehe
20:06:36  <peter1138> Yeah, frosch123 is right
20:06:50  <peter1138> 16 pixels across in \ = 22.6 pixels across in --
20:07:34  *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:55b9:adb9:eb8d:c75f] has quit [Quit: .]
20:07:36  <peter1138> and | views should be half that
20:07:53  <peter1138> concluded.
20:09:01  <peter1138> unless you think it should be stretch because it's isometric?
20:09:03  <Eddi|zuHause> now then, how about my intermediate rotations in CETS? :p
20:09:38  <Eddi|zuHause> steps of 15° (in 3D coordinates)
20:10:59  <peter1138> but 16 * 4 is 64, not 47 :S
20:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> 23*4 is not 66 either.
20:11:53  <peter1138> frosch123, i was measuring an isometric circle, see
20:12:56  <frosch123> the 47 pixels i measured in pineapple were not a complete vehicle length
20:13:02  <peter1138> ok
20:13:09  <frosch123> but just an easy identifyable length in the sprite
20:14:05  <peter1138> so 64 for \ and 90.5 for -- in 4x
20:14:09  <peter1138> minus spacing
20:14:21  <peter1138> 66 is considerably less than 90
20:14:33  <peter1138> but then 47 is considerably less than 64
20:14:55  * peter1138 doubts himself again
20:15:16  <Eddi|zuHause> better than the 128 you'd get from 32px vehicles
20:15:30  <peter1138> yuck
20:15:31  <NGC3982> When "Your computer took too long to connect". Can the server change the time that took to long?
20:15:46  <peter1138> well, 38 pixels too long vs 24 pixels too short .hmm.
20:15:52  <peter1138> NGC3982, yes
20:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that's in the .cfg
20:16:05  <peter1138> ok i think i can close blender now
20:16:16  <NGC3982> max_lag_time?
20:16:27  <Eddi|zuHause> max_join_time or so
20:16:34  <Eddi|zuHause> lag is during the game
20:16:40  <NGC3982> I can join, i just can't play.
20:16:41  <NGC3982> Aight.
20:17:59  <NGC3982> Yes, it worked out nicely. Thank you.
20:18:07  <Eddi|zuHause> there are 3 different times. the time it takes to download, the time it takes you to catch up with whatever happened during the download, and the time you are behind if the computer is too slow to handle everything going on
20:18:35  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't really do anything for the latter
20:19:02  <peter1138> pause_on_join
20:19:09  <peter1138> is that even off by default still?
20:30:23  <andythenorth> hmm
20:30:26  <andythenorth> super compressed
20:35:55  * andythenorth has now lost all sense of proportion :P
20:35:56  <andythenorth>
20:36:16  <andythenorth> the 22px – view obviously isn’t 5/8 or 6/8
20:36:21  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, the quote button on devzone is broken :/
20:36:27  <andythenorth> but I can’t keep track of that being right or wrong
20:36:50  <planetmaker> how so, Eddi|zuHause ?
20:37:07  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: doesn't do anything
20:37:57  <planetmaker> must be you. does work for me
20:38:18  <planetmaker> or something you do different than me
20:38:30  <planetmaker> anywhere specifically?
20:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it shortly pops up "loading..." and then nothing happens
20:39:15  <andythenorth> going by default bus, 28/15 = 1.8667
20:39:26  <andythenorth> so 22/1.8667 is 11.8
20:39:35  <andythenorth> so my / view is 1px too short
20:39:35  <Eddi|zuHause> <- i'm on this page, currently
20:39:42  <andythenorth> but the wheels look stupid if not aligned on the grid
20:39:44  <andythenorth> so meh
20:40:07  <frosch123>
20:40:34  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, when I click on that it opens the edit mode with that specific posting quoted
20:40:56  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it doesn't do that for me
20:41:59  <planetmaker> do you use a browser which only supports ssl3? :P we disabled that
20:42:17  <andythenorth> bah
20:42:20  <Eddi|zuHause> pffft :p
20:42:23  <andythenorth> does that truck look stupid or not?
20:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the usual "edit" button on the bottom works, the quote button not.
20:43:03  <frosch123> @calc 22/sqrt(2)
20:43:03  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 15.5563491861
20:43:17  <frosch123> @calc 11*sqrt(2)
20:43:17  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 15.5563491861
20:43:38  <frosch123> andythenorth: either your / view is 4 pixels too short, or your -- view is 6 pixels too long
20:43:51  <frosch123> (in pikka scale)
20:43:52  <andythenorth> the / view is too short
20:43:57  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, edit or update button?
20:43:57  <andythenorth> is pikka scale useful?
20:44:19  <frosch123> in non-pikka scale the lengths are corret though :p
20:44:33  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: button called "bearbeiten"
20:44:46  <frosch123> but since rv do not drive in \ and / direction very much, you can just use pikka scale
20:44:52  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: on the bottom
20:45:10  <frosch123> err, i mean in | and -- direciton ...
20:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: until we get diagonal roads
20:46:08  <frosch123> i guess we get pikka-style driving before diagonal roads :p
20:48:50  <andythenorth> highly scientific preference test
20:49:01  <andythenorth> which looks better?
20:49:32  <peter1138> 22px is 8/8
20:50:02  <peter1138> Well, 22.6px
20:50:56  <andythenorth> metric or imperial?
20:51:11  <peter1138> :S
20:51:14  <frosch123> apple pixels
20:51:22  <frosch123> not square, but roundrects
20:51:38  <peter1138> Basically, draw an isometric circle. Then lengths are obviousl.
20:51:40  <peter1138> -l
20:51:50  <andythenorth> the RH one (longer tractor) is 1px too long
20:51:58  <andythenorth> the LH one (shorter tractor) is 1px too short
20:52:01  <andythenorth> same trailer in both
20:52:09  <andythenorth> which is better? o_O
20:52:35  <peter1138> andythenorth, why no inbetween option?
20:53:00  <peter1138> RH looks better aesthetically though.
20:53:56  <andythenorth> wheels go off the grid for in-between option
20:53:58  <andythenorth> looks daft
20:54:06  <andythenorth> like it’s permanently skidding
20:55:51  <andythenorth> hmm so that is now redrawn 5 times, I think this is now correct
20:57:51  <andythenorth> HEQS always bugged me, the / \ views are about 50% too long
20:58:01  <andythenorth> also now I just need to redraw all of squid
20:59:20  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: ah. i remember now how i ended up with 24px the last time: i approximated sqrt(2) as 1,5
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21:07:50  <andythenorth> so now just offsets :P
21:07:55  <peter1138> Ok, I made a CETS-like vehicle.
21:08:10  <peter1138> (Just an oblong :p)
21:08:16  <andythenorth> hrm
21:08:35  <andythenorth> offsets can be calculated at compile time
21:08:36  <andythenorth> ho
21:08:39  <andythenorth> that’s better
21:11:16  <Eddi|zuHause> "Lockheed Martin says fusion power may be ready in 10 years"
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21:12:52  <andythenorth> I’ll use it for my flying pig car
21:14:30  <andythenorth> x-axis is the one along which you’d measure the length of the vehicle?
21:14:38  <andythenorth> this is not an iso maths question
21:14:43  <andythenorth> need a property name
21:15:03  <frosch123> use hoizontal/vertical
21:15:16  <frosch123> in ottd X refers to / direction
21:15:34  <andythenorth> maybe I use what we use for effect offset
21:15:35  * andythenorth looks
21:16:28  <andythenorth> meh, nothing useful there
21:16:42  <andythenorth> offset_from_front will do
21:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> x axis is along your thumb if you use the right hand
21:17:39  <frosch123> you need a weirdly distorted hand for that
21:20:18  * andythenorth needs bed
21:21:33  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: how so?
21:22:04  <frosch123> my thumb always points somewhat upwards
21:22:13  <frosch123> but in ottd the x axis points downwards
21:22:20  <Eddi|zuHause> "right hand rule": x = thumb, y = index, z = middle
21:22:39  <Eddi|zuHause> then turn it so each finger points in the direction where values increase
21:23:14  <frosch123> yeah, that's the theory :p now turn your hand to have the same orientation as ottd :p
21:23:15  <andythenorth> bit of a painful bend :P
21:23:18  <andythenorth> works
21:23:19  <andythenorth> ish
21:23:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, openttd has quite an unfortunate orientation on that matter
21:25:29  <Eddi|zuHause> a more common one would be if both the x and the y axis were increasing in the opposite direction
21:26:33  <peter1138> Wrong.
21:27:25  <peter1138> Or right. I'm just not that flexible.
21:28:48  <andythenorth> bed
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21:42:22  <frosch123> night
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22:12:45  <Wolf01> 'night
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