Log for #openttd on 22nd October 2014:
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07:00:53  <argoneus> good morning train friends
07:03:06  <V453000> enemy
07:03:21  <V453000> are you REALISTIC?
07:03:29  <V453000> I luv it
07:05:05  <argoneus> w-wut
07:06:24  <V453000> exactly
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08:04:20  * Flygon prods argoneus
08:04:25  <Flygon> I'm a Flygon, not a Train D:
08:04:34  <Flygon> Also I'm utterly nuts
08:06:04  * V453000 uses hexa coordinates for his 16x16 grid of trains
08:06:12  <V453000> despite hating hexa numbers
08:06:19  <V453000> ha
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08:11:41  * V453000 is proud of himself
08:15:27  <peter1138> sup?
08:18:01  <V453000> wtf up
08:18:03  <V453000> also down
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08:42:19  <Celestar> good day
08:42:36  <__ln__> average
08:57:36  <Eddi|zuHause> cold
08:59:52  <planetmaker> rain with Westerly gusty winds
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09:06:48  <FLodos> hi!
09:07:23  <FLodos> i'm in a bit of a problem, maybe somone here can help me?
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09:08:42  <Eddi|zuHause> no
09:10:17  <argoneus> maybe he was getting murdered
09:10:21  <argoneus> in his apartment
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09:12:15  <supermop> i usually turn to irc when getting murdered
09:12:36  <Eddi|zuHause> how often does that happen to you?
09:17:50  <peter1138> # i just wanna be... a woman
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09:27:18  <peter1138> Yeah, maybe that web interface work was really useful...
09:27:23  <peter1138> ... *making
09:27:24  <planetmaker> hello petra1138
09:27:35  <peter1138> hello planetifex
09:28:32  <peter1138> hee, this font looks weird ;P
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10:34:42  <LordAro> hmm, you guys not going to announce 1.4.4 then? :L
10:57:24  <peter1138> 98KB for a house place patch :(
11:01:00  <argoneus> are you guys going to announce half life 3
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11:24:18  <planetmaker> still, I think house placement in SE makes sense. But I didn't yet look at that patch series (again)
11:27:09  <Eddi|zuHause> how can that be more than 10LOC for the construction part and 100LOC for the gui part?
11:28:02  <peter1138> Maybe they're very long lines :)
11:29:08  <Eddi|zuHause> the gui would be mostly copy-paste from the object gui
11:29:17  <peter1138> That doesn't make it smaller.
11:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> no
11:29:39  <peter1138> CMD_DEITY
11:29:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but easier :p
11:29:43  <peter1138> o_O
11:30:05  <peter1138> Never seen that one before, heh.
11:30:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that should be something that game scripts do
11:30:55  <planetmaker> sudo place house basically :)
11:31:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the gui should probably be filterable by town zone
11:33:08  <peter1138> Callbacks make all that shit hard.
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11:33:17  <peter1138> Bye
11:35:29  <V453000> time for beer
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11:45:52  <peter1138> Urgh, image rentention issues :(
11:47:09  <Rubidium> what's rentention?
11:47:44  <peter1138> Persistence?
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11:50:23  <Rubidium> oh, so it is retention; thought it might mean something completely different with the extra n
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11:58:17  <peter1138> It must be a known 'fault' before manufacture, because it's the only monitor I've seen with an LCD conditioning mode designed to reduce retention...
11:58:28  <peter1138> I wonder how long I'd have to keep that on.
12:02:22  <b_jonas> ugh
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12:12:57  <V453000> my spritesheets are going to be utter insanity XD
12:16:39  <argoneus> is that why your trains have such ludicrous names
12:18:49  <V453000> no that is something different :)
12:18:56  <V453000> related, maybe
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13:11:13  <planetmaker> argoneus, correlation is not causality ;)
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13:14:22  <argoneus> planetmaker: that
13:14:26  <argoneus> that's too deep for me*
13:14:40  <argoneus> whoever put ' next to enter should not be given any medals
13:15:23  <Rubidium> argoneus: you're free to make your own keyboard layout
13:15:31  <argoneus> not at work :(
13:15:41  <Rubidium> why not?
13:15:50  <argoneus> also as much as I hate to admit it, the default english keyboard is perfect for coding
13:15:50  <Rubidium> just take the keyboard home and rewire it
13:15:56  <argoneus> I don't know where else I would put '
13:16:07  <Rubidium> at the location of the `?
13:16:14  <argoneus> but I use ~
13:17:06  <Rubidium> alternatively move out the return; it's not needed by most programming languages anyhow
13:17:25  <Rubidium> e.g. only keep the one of the numpad area and unwire the one near the '
13:17:25  <argoneus> python-chan would hate me
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14:22:08  <andythenorth> anyone compiling ottd on OS X Yosemite yet?
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14:28:29  * Rubidium isn't
14:34:07  * Xaroth|Work isn't
14:34:27  <Rubidium> it's also a long time ago I did anything related with Yosemite
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14:36:43  <andythenorth> maybe someone in the forums will :P
14:39:44  * Rubidium must say that Apple and Microsoft are equally well suited with completely messing up version numbering
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14:41:23  <Rubidium> OS X 10.7.3 == Darwin 11.3, OS X 10.7.4 == Darwin 11.4, OS X 10.7.5 == Darwin 11.4.2...
14:42:07  <Rubidium> OS X 10.9 == Darwin 13.0, OS X 10.9.1 == Darwin 13.0..., OS X 10.9.2 == Darwin 13.1
14:42:13  <Rubidium> really...
14:43:15  <Rubidium> hmm
14:43:32  <__ln__> i guess you could get an equally nonsensical list by comparing Debian release numbers with the kernel versions they were shipped with.
14:43:35  <Rubidium> OS X 10.1 = Darwin 1.4.1, OS X 10.1.1 = Darwin 5.1
14:44:13  <Rubidium> __ln__: but the Debian kernel(s) are not refered to as the "OS Name"
14:44:47  <Rubidium> after all, Darwin is an operating system... the Debian kernel(s) aren't
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14:46:53  <Rubidium> also, for Debian there is no general "mapping" between kernel version and OS version.
14:47:29  <__ln__> did apple ever promise or document such mapping for OS X?
14:47:49  <Rubidium> for OS X there kinda is: OSX minor + 4.OSX build ~= Darwin major.Darwin minor
14:48:38  <Rubidium> __ln__: don't know, but it's kinda evident that it is more or less the current behaviour
14:49:09  <andythenorth> ‘Open Source’ Darwin is just Apple’s equivalent of green washing
14:49:20  <andythenorth> Apple has zero interest in any genuine open source ethos
14:49:38  <andythenorth> which should be obvious :P
14:49:57  <__ln__> andythenorth: how do you measure genuinity?
14:51:13  <andythenorth> “I know it when I don’t see it”
14:51:32  <andythenorth> dunno, I’m pretty happy that I can read Apple and what they care about and what they don't
14:52:32  <__ln__> for example, apple created pre-compiled header support for GCC years before such support was available in mainline GCC.
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14:55:31  <Rubidium> __ln__: ... because Apple didn't want to play by the rules of GCC anymore
14:56:19  <__ln__> ... so implementing a new feature for a GPL-licensed piece of software is a bad thing because of that?
14:57:30  <Rubidium> no, but over time they Apple has become less and less open to open source
14:57:49  <__ln__> yes, no doubt.
14:58:15  <Rubidium> e.g. the effective ban on GPL-ed software in their application distribution system
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14:59:01  <Rubidium> true, Debian is somewhat pedantic the other way around... but for Debian it's just one line in a configuration file away for getting the non-free stuff that is packaged for Debian
14:59:29  <andythenorth> Rubidium: nah, Apple have become about the same amount of open to open source
14:59:44  <andythenorth> they never seriously cared, and they still don’t seriously care
15:00:38  <andythenorth> and they never will seriously care, unless the people running it change rather a lot
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16:06:42  <Alberth> o/
16:09:57  <frosch123> hai
16:10:47  <Taede> o/
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17:03:38  <andythenorth> meh
17:03:42  <Alberth> hihi
17:03:51  <andythenorth> I suppose I’ll update my wife’s laptop to OS X Yosemite
17:03:54  <andythenorth> and try compiling on that
17:04:02  <andythenorth> then do the inevitable crap to make it work :P
17:04:15  <andythenorth> only just fixed my Mavericks compile :(
17:04:29  <Alberth> buy a normal pc, put it in a quiet corner and work remotely?  :p
17:04:44  <planetmaker> :D
17:05:22  <andythenorth> where’s the fun
17:05:36  <andythenorth> I could just put linux in a VM
17:05:41  <andythenorth> if I wanted to cheat :P
17:06:18  <Alberth> install linux, and run osx in a vm :p
17:06:34  <Alberth> probably more fun than you care to have :)
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17:27:42  <frosch123> hmm, where would be the correct place in ottd to add a button "manual", which opens the wiki manual in a browser?
17:28:13  <andythenorth> question mark menu
17:28:16  <frosch123> hmm, i guess a "?" button in every window caption
17:29:06  <planetmaker> frosch123, main menu. And behind the ? button in main toolbar
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17:29:28  <frosch123> i think something context sensitive would make more sense
17:29:32  <Wolf01> hello o/
17:29:49  <Alberth> hello
17:29:51  <frosch123> but yes, those two places for generall wiki mapge
17:29:53  <planetmaker> how context sensitive do you want it?
17:30:10  <frosch123> the ? in the order gui shall link to the wiki page about the order gui
17:30:36  <Alberth> context sensitive makes sense, but clutters up the window title bar somewhat
17:30:41  <planetmaker> wow, you really want to take it far :)
17:30:49  <andythenorth> you don’t need help everywhere
17:30:58  <andythenorth> I’ve built apps that tried to do it
17:31:02  <andythenorth> it’s overkill
17:31:22  <Alberth> but then you have to decide which one is useful
17:31:27  <frosch123> <- though i guess we do not have such pages for all windows :p
17:31:29  <__ln__> how do you open the browser while in fullscreen?
17:31:34  <Alberth> hmm, translations jump to translated wiki?
17:31:35  <frosch123> Alberth: isn't there enough space in the window title?
17:31:58  <frosch123> Alberth: not possible with current wiki, i think
17:32:05  <andythenorth> one help option on global menu is adequate
17:32:11  <frosch123> hmm, unless we actually do not link directly to the wiki
17:32:16  <frosch123> but to
17:32:25  <planetmaker> we already have 3 buttons in window title bar
17:32:29  <frosch123> which has some script magic that scan the wiki for pages and linked translations
17:32:41  <Alberth> and no location button yet either :)
17:33:24  <Alberth> oh, in general there is plenty of space in the title bar
17:33:30  <frosch123> [close] title [location] [help] [defsize] [sticky]
17:33:35  <andythenorth> don’t need help there
17:33:40  <andythenorth> :)
17:33:49  <andythenorth> try it?
17:33:50  <frosch123> maybe some advanced setting for each button? :p left/right/off
17:33:52  <planetmaker> [debug]
17:34:02  <frosch123> debug does not count :p
17:34:09  <planetmaker> lol @ settings :)
17:34:33  <frosch123> anyway, if we add some padding between them, it should not be too confusing
17:34:53  <planetmaker> generally I'm +1 to that idea
17:34:55  <frosch123> [close] title [location] [help] (padding) [defsize] [sticky]
17:34:57  <andythenorth> do the apps you use have help icon on every window group?
17:35:11  <andythenorth> are you sure we don’t want clippy instead? o-O
17:35:12  <andythenorth> o_O
17:35:13  <frosch123> not every
17:35:24  <frosch123> ottd doesn't have wiki pages on all windows
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17:35:59  <frosch123> there are tooltips for the details, but a wiki for the general description would be nice
17:36:46  <planetmaker> Well, generally we could add it to all windows. If there's no wiki yet, it's incentive to create that page
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17:37:04  <Alberth> hi hi Zuu
17:37:13  <Zuu> Hello Alberth
17:37:14  <planetmaker> o/
17:37:17  <frosch123> hmm, i guess it needs some ottd redirection, something like
17:37:32  <frosch123> that would allow linking to different pages for different ottd versions
17:37:33  <andythenorth> yes
17:37:41  <Zuu> Hello everyone else :-)
17:37:42  <andythenorth> you end up needing a help redirection manager
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17:37:52  <Alberth> we hire andy :)
17:37:54  <andythenorth> ideally web based, ideally changeable without editing the app
17:38:02  <andythenorth> did I mention I’ve done this before?
17:38:05  <LordAro> ah, hellos are being done here :) o/ Zuu
17:38:08  <frosch123> andythenorth: we already have a redirection for the grf search
17:38:16  <Alberth> you sound like a manager :)
17:38:17  <frosch123> and wiki pages are not created that often :p
17:38:24  <andythenorth> what are we trying to solve?
17:38:31  <andythenorth> (other than making it easy to access wiki)
17:38:31  <planetmaker> yes... such re-direction makes sense
17:38:40  <planetmaker> with a fallback at least from language->english
17:39:06  <frosch123> LordAro: i searched the wiki for the release annoucement, so i could post it
17:39:14  <frosch123> but you didn't link to one, like you usually do
17:39:23  <LordAro> aw
17:39:24  <LordAro> :p
17:39:36  <LordAro> wait, release announcement?
17:39:56  <LordAro> do you mean anything different to
17:40:26  <frosch123> LordAro: at the bottom there is only a link to 1.4.4-rc1 news, but not to 1.4.4 :/
17:41:37  <LordAro> that's because there wasn't one?
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17:41:41  <LordAro> that was my point :L
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17:41:47  <frosch123> andythenorth: planetmaker: anyway, i guess the first step would be figureing out whether there are more than 3 windows, which could link to usable info :p
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17:42:05  <LordAro> <-- indeed, no news article :p
17:42:43  <Alberth> yes, he said that
17:42:46  <Zuu> Related to context help, in a program that I work on we have F1 = go to corresponding page in the manual. It has bindings for most input fields in the entire application to some page in the manual.
17:43:07  <frosch123> F1 is pause :p
17:43:12  <frosch123> that is more important than help
17:43:17  <Zuu> Yeah, this is a desktop application.
17:43:19  <Alberth> MUCH more important :)
17:44:06  <frosch123> we could use ctrl+scrolllock for help :p
17:44:14  <planetmaker> lol
17:44:24  <planetmaker> why don't we bind 'space' to help?
17:44:24  <Zuu> How many newbies will figure out that?
17:44:27  <planetmaker> err. to pause
17:44:46  <Zuu> (ctrl + scroll lock)
17:44:58  <Zuu> Space clears news messages
17:45:05  <planetmaker> oh, it does?
17:45:09  <planetmaker> :D
17:45:12  <Zuu> Ctrl + Space could pause
17:45:16  <frosch123> Zuu: but it would entertain the forums :)
17:45:28  <Zuu> Sure
17:45:39  <Zuu> Doesn't the pause button already pause the game?
17:45:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27031 trunk/src/lang/irish.txt (2014-10-22 17:45:39 UTC)
17:45:47  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:48  <DorpsGek> irish - 94 changes by tem
17:46:04  <Alberth> Zuu: it's at the wrong end of the keyboard :)
17:46:05  <frosch123> anyway, i don't think "help" needs a hotkey
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17:46:13  <frosch123> i window button is more useful
17:46:26  <frosch123> people who need help are more likely to press a "?" button than to press F1
17:46:33  <Zuu> Alberth: Remap that key if you don't like its placement.
17:47:03  <frosch123> it should also be in a place where you do not accidentially press it
17:47:12  <frosch123> opening a browser in the middle of the game is certainly annoying
17:47:43  <Rubidium> the turbo button
17:47:45  <Alberth> hmm, ECS help for ECS industries?
17:48:14  <Rubidium> also... how are you going to handle the game script windows? A script specific page?
17:48:14  <frosch123> BAD FEATURE :p
17:48:32  <frosch123> if any removes descriptions for engines, we hardly want him to add a wiki link instead :p
17:48:44  <frosch123> *andy
17:48:59  <planetmaker> looking for, Alberth ?
17:49:34  <Alberth> planetmaker: no, I just pressed the theoretical "help" button at my theoretical ECS game
17:49:50  <planetmaker> :) FIRS and ECS do have elaborate help pages
17:49:51  <Alberth> and wondered what should happen
17:49:55  <planetmaker> and YETI and NUTS
17:50:15  <planetmaker> Alberth, it could open the URL provided by action14 of the newgrf
17:50:45  <Alberth> that's the general discussion page, I think?
17:50:58  <Zuu> Or add new APIs in the spec where they can provide help URLs for things that they provide.
17:51:06  <Alberth> obviously, I want information about the coal mine that's in the window :p
17:51:48  <frosch123> yeah, the new scenario format also needs a method to add signs with urls
17:51:51  <Zuu> Eg. if you declare a coal mine, you could set its helpUrl attribute to your manual wiki.
17:52:02  <frosch123> so you can properly label your realworld scenario with wiki landscape descriptions
17:52:18  <Alberth> nice idea frosch123
17:52:57  <planetmaker> action0 property as URL? :D
17:53:17  <frosch123> i hope no callback 36 :p
17:53:22  <planetmaker> lol
17:53:22  <Zuu> Another way would be to allow longer texts etc. in the game and have an in-game doc viewer. But that is probably not as feature packed viewer as a modern web browser.
17:53:45  <planetmaker> frosch123, though sure it can make sense. Depending on climate, on year, on... you-name-it
17:53:47  <frosch123> Zuu: for complicated things you also want images
17:53:56  <Zuu> Allow to specify URLs and provide help buttons is probably easier to implement though.
17:53:56  <frosch123> a browser is a far nicer solution for that
17:54:28  <frosch123> and if we switch to video tutorials, no issue either :p
17:54:38  <Alberth> at this tile napoleon died in the the battle of waterloo
17:55:01  <planetmaker> :)
17:55:08  <frosch123> yeah, a lot more options to play realistically :)
17:55:10  <George> You are discussing adding URI s to the game, but can't add a total consist weight property... SHOCKED 8-O
17:55:42  <frosch123> yes, because one makes sense, while the other does not
17:56:25  <frosch123> anyway, noone added uris yet :p
17:56:26  <George> From my point of view URIs has much less sense
17:57:00  <frosch123> i told you, weight makes no sense because it depends on slopes, slope settings, freight settings, ...
17:57:46  <George> It does not depend. It tain acceselaration model depend. Weigth itself is not
17:58:10  <George> Open the train props window and see it while train moves
17:58:32  <George> Total weight displayd and changes only on load/unload
17:59:07  <George> If a player can wach this value why can't the code do it?
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17:59:14  <frosch123> it is not the job of newgrf to add custom acceleratio mechanics
17:59:42  <George> And it does not. But calculation of RC is
18:00:09  <frosch123> if you had requested a "engine usage" variable or whatever, it would make sense
18:00:14  <frosch123> but "weight" is useless
18:00:30  <George> what is engine usage?
18:01:34  <George> % percent of power it uses at the moment? (100% on acceleration, less on max speed?)
18:01:40  <frosch123> the current power output of the engine to accelerate resp. hold the speed, compared to the maximum output it can do
18:02:05  <George> value betwen 0% and 100%?
18:02:31  <frosch123> no idea, maybe negative for breaking
18:02:39  <V453000> why do you need such a thing George?
18:02:41  <frosch123> *braking
18:02:53  <planetmaker> breaking is -oo ;)
18:02:53  <George> When is it 100%?
18:03:19  <planetmaker> during acceleration
18:03:21  <peter1138> It is 100% except when it is stopping or stopped.
18:03:21  <frosch123> when not braking and not limited by top speed
18:03:45  <frosch123> it may be 70% if at top speed, but uphill
18:04:19  <peter1138> In game, the speed limit just stops it going faster, it still calculates the acceleration with full power.
18:06:22  <peter1138> (Or was something added for the purposes of smoke generation?)
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18:06:58  <George> frosch123: If it is less than 100% at the top speed I may use it instead total weight. Can you provide such var?
18:07:18  <frosch123> some places can defnitely differ between "still accelerating" or "limited by various speed limits"
18:08:05  <Alberth> V453000:
18:09:08  <George> frosch123: it is not enough to have just "limited" value. it should be between 0% and 100% to represent which % is used
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18:09:54  <peter1138> Also there is only one value for the entire train.
18:09:58  <V453000> thanks Alberth :) reward! :D
18:10:05  <V453000> almost ready to put models there :D
18:10:18  <V453000> making automatic infrastructure to get spritesheets from render
18:10:28  <V453000> full spritesheet like this would be 32k x 1024 XD
18:10:48  <V453000> [iz for trains]
18:11:43  <Alberth> slug must be hding at the other side of the board :)
18:12:10  <V453000> it is there just not visible :p
18:12:23  <frosch123> V453000: we do not yet have newlandscape, you cannot label the grass tiles in toyland
18:12:36  <Alberth> ugh, you're making insane images sizes too, just like zeph? :)
18:12:55  <peter1138> frosch123, nothing in the code does that.
18:12:59  <V453000> LOL
18:13:16  <V453000> I have 128x128 for train sprites
18:13:22  <V453000> same in all rotations
18:13:25  <V453000> idk what zeph has
18:13:45  <V453000> but it is the safe size where you can get all rotations into it when the vehicle is just rotating around its center
18:14:19  <V453000> and 128 is the full width of -- side views assuming the stretching
18:14:22  <peter1138> Are you sure there'll be nothing overlaping?
18:14:23  <Alberth> V453000:
18:14:36  <V453000> peter1138: am 100% sure
18:14:38  <V453000> of course it has its limits
18:15:11  <peter1138> Yeah, using a sprite sheet is a bit weird.
18:15:14  <V453000> but as long as the vehicles stay 0.5 tile long, 0.45 tile tall and something fat, it is fine
18:15:23  <V453000> which should work
18:15:27  <peter1138> Do you copy the vehicle for each view?
18:15:37  <V453000> no that is done automatically
18:15:38  <Alberth> one car, 16 orientations in rotating around 3 axes
18:15:41  <V453000> this image is rendered 8 times
18:15:56  <V453000> vehicles just rotate on the spot
18:16:10  <V453000> so the final sprite output is 256x8 from one thing like this
18:16:15  <Alberth> s/vehicles/slugs/
18:16:38  <V453000> now, I have it done flexibly so for less vehicles I can simply use e.g. 4x4 grid, and the spritesheet will only be that large, too
18:16:53  <V453000> the 16x16 should be only for some wagons and even that should be like half-filled
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18:17:53  <V453000> since a wagon can have idk, 25 cargo variations and e.g. 5 loading stages, it adds up quickly :)
18:18:07  <George> frosch123: So, would situation change if I request engine usage instead of total weight?
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18:20:52  * andythenorth goes to war with javascript :x
18:22:17  <andythenorth> hmm
18:22:18  <andythenorth> also
18:22:19  <andythenorth>
18:23:23  <Alberth> you missed an opportunity to make a newgrf :)
18:23:58  <andythenorth> well
18:24:01  <andythenorth> it’s funny timing
18:24:12  <andythenorth> I’m adding a type of vehicle to Road Hog that transports supplies
18:24:25  <andythenorth> I considered making it refit to the exact supply requirements of FIRS
18:24:33  <andythenorth> same as that post suggests
18:24:40  <andythenorth> but isn’t that dumb?
18:25:18  <andythenorth> why not just remove the supply requirements?
18:25:37  <V453000> xd
18:25:44  <V453000> it isnt a bad idea andy
18:25:49  <andythenorth> removing supplies?
18:25:59  <V453000> using chameleon trains from NUTS which can do the same thing, is simply convenient for efficiency
18:26:01  <V453000> no
18:26:11  <V453000> making vehicles easily carry the requried FIRS amount
18:26:30  <andythenorth> so why not just make farms and mines require same amounts?
18:26:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth, the supplies are not a bad thing. It adds some challenge to the game
18:26:47  <planetmaker> it ensures there's two mechanisms. And if you prefer one can simply ignore the supplies anyway
18:26:50  <andythenorth> the only challenge is buy vehicle of precise required size and run it
18:27:13  <Alberth> yeah, which implies tracks and space for the vehicles
18:27:41  <andythenorth> so having perfectly matched vehicles is not a bad feature? :o
18:27:49  <V453000> no, it is good
18:27:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth, and the requirement for different vehicles also is not exactly bad. It gives rise to actually look at more than one vehicle for stuff
18:28:08  <planetmaker> having perfectly matched vehicles doesn't hurt. Not at all
18:28:18  <Alberth> I can't really care, I just deliver way too much anyway to make stuff run fluently
18:28:19  <V453000> andythenorth: the exact vehicle capacity is just OCD anyway, if you deliver 5 extra supplies it wont ruin you :D
18:28:27  <andythenorth> seemed like a terrible idea when I was going to add it to RH
18:28:30  <V453000> as Alberth just said
18:28:42  <V453000> XD
18:28:45  <andythenorth> so you’re saying I should do this in RH too?
18:28:46  <planetmaker> Alberth, or that. That doesn't hurt either. I try to distribute it evenly. But that's too much most often, too. Why care? I get money for it
18:29:05  <V453000> well mainly what else to do with it pm
18:29:07  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you don't need to. But if you do, it's not a mistake
18:29:10  <V453000> if all industries have it and all have too much :D
18:29:16  <planetmaker> V453000, exactly
18:29:18  <andythenorth> I dunno
18:29:26  <andythenorth> I always come back to supplies are stupid
18:29:32  <andythenorth> and requiring precise amounts is stupid
18:29:36  <V453000> XD
18:29:38  <V453000> it isnt
18:29:40  <andythenorth> but I never think of a better answer
18:29:49  <planetmaker> andythenorth, but it doesn't require precise amounts. Just regular delivery
18:30:04  <V453000> it does require amounts to keep some production rate pm
18:30:07  <Alberth> you don't require precise amounts, you only set a minimum
18:30:11  <peter1138> Hrmm, maybe I should start a new game... 256x128 doesn't last long
18:30:13  <V453000> 84 within 3 months?
18:30:47  <planetmaker> yeah. there's only a minimum requirement. That's ok
18:30:50  <Alberth> and it's an extra layer, you can do once you have the basic system running
18:31:04  <andythenorth> I wonder if it should be simpler
18:31:05  <frosch123> peter1138: rubidium had some savegame on 128x128 or so, transporting more than coop on 512x512
18:31:11  <andythenorth> something like good service = production boost
18:31:12  <andythenorth> or something
18:31:17  <Alberth> although gang-ho usually causes havoc in your network :p
18:31:23  <planetmaker> that's way too simple, andythenorth
18:31:32  <planetmaker> buy stupidly many trains. Done
18:32:16  <Alberth> supplies require a new separate network, that spreads out to the industries
18:32:22  <planetmaker> requiring at least X of cargo Y for production boost is not exactly bad.
18:32:24  <Alberth> instead of dump it all at one place
18:32:37  <Alberth> ie it's a different problem
18:32:39  <Rubidium> frosch123: you mean? ;)
18:32:44  <V453000> I think suppliesa re fine
18:32:59  <frosch123> Rubidium: yep
18:32:59  <planetmaker> and indeed, supplies manage to force players to deliver stuff to many places, thus building a n->n network instead of n->1 netwo0rk
18:33:10  <andythenorth> they bug me
18:33:10  <V453000> SHIP HAX XD
18:33:16  <andythenorth> but FIRS is 6 years old
18:33:19  <andythenorth> and no better idea yet
18:33:26  <Rubidium> frosch123: too bad I actually lost the savegame :(
18:34:08  <V453000> andythenorth: allowing for something more dynamic, the produce_256 callback can do awesome things, too
18:34:17  <V453000> you deliver less, you get less, you deliver more, you get more
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18:34:24  <V453000> kind of like processing
18:34:51  <planetmaker> V453000, that's got potential for positive and negative feedback cycles. FIRS has that less as it stretches the time span for that more
18:34:53  <V453000> idk if you could make the effect last for a longer period
18:35:05  <V453000> to reduce that effect
18:35:09  <andythenorth> well
18:35:12  <planetmaker> that's what FIRS does, V453000
18:35:13  <andythenorth> that’s kind of what FIRS does
18:35:16  <V453000> I know
18:35:19  <andythenorth> it sucks
18:35:36  <V453000> but idk if produce_256 can react slower like that / keep production for longer I mean
18:35:36  <andythenorth> especially farms
18:35:41  <andythenorth> FIRS farms suck
18:35:53  <V453000> the point is, if a player deliver 293719 supplies per month, it is nice to let them have higher production
18:35:54  <planetmaker> I disagree :(
18:35:59  <planetmaker> farm clusters are awesome
18:36:01  <V453000> not linearly not to motivate dumping everything to one spot
18:36:09  <V453000> but allowing for more
18:36:38  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think you should play a different industry set for once
18:36:54  <frosch123> people love firs, but you have played it too often for yourself
18:37:04  <frosch123> now you want to change it just for the purpose of changing it
18:37:17  <andythenorth> you might be right
18:37:35  <andythenorth> on the other hand I still think it sucks
18:37:41  <andythenorth> maybe the answer is a new set
18:37:56  <V453000> definitely better answer than wrecking supplies
18:37:57  <planetmaker> maybe. FIRS works great
18:38:04  <V453000> supplies are what makes FIRS special
18:38:10  <planetmaker> ^^
18:38:23  <V453000> or just make an economy
18:38:30  <frosch123> newgrf do not need to be perfect, they need to be different :p
18:38:33  <Alberth> andythenorth: as author you are always well aware of the weak points, since you're focused on them. Also look at the good things every now and then :)
18:38:37  <andythenorth> frosch123: agreed
18:38:55  <andythenorth> Alberth: nice to say, but it only gets better by kicking it, no?
18:39:17  <Alberth> not without a good plan :)
18:39:27  <andythenorth> plans :P
18:39:39  <andythenorth> plans are for project mangers :P
18:39:52  <andythenorth> so stupid refittable vehicles for Road Hog?
18:39:53  <Alberth> but an experimental industry set could be useful
18:40:06  <andythenorth> I dunno, this ‘perfectly sized refit’ smells of BAD FEATURE to me
18:40:32  <V453000> there is nothing bad about it
18:40:40  <andythenorth> also supplies were only added so I could draw this
18:40:43  <V453000> as I said, if the capacity is 48 or 50 doesnt even matter much
18:40:48  <V453000> you would lose 2 out of 48 supplies
18:40:59  <andythenorth> V453000: BUT THAT IS NOT OPTIMAL
18:41:00  <V453000> you already lose more by having station rating worse with RVs  than with trains
18:41:10  <V453000> not assuming FIRS station rating hax XD
18:41:36  <andythenorth> EVERYTHING MUST BE 100%
18:41:47  <V453000> ok :D
18:42:23  <andythenorth> all those weird players posting about all these shitty hacks with little feeders and crap
18:42:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i must be in a fever delirium... did V just advocate for something less optimal?
18:42:51  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause is still alive
18:42:56  <andythenorth> I thought we’d lost him to TF
18:43:43  <V453000> Eddi it just doesnt matter :P
18:43:50  <andythenorth> hmm maybe I deleted the nonsense from wiki page
18:43:53  <V453000> players have vast excess of supplies anyway
18:46:59  <andythenorth> can I just make farms and mines have same requirements?
18:47:15  <andythenorth> then one vehicle can be provided without this refit bollocks
18:47:46  <V453000> XD
18:48:14  <V453000> well if you make farms require the same as mines then it will be even harder to set them up
18:48:28  <V453000> but again the current amount of supplies produced is generally so high that it should not matter much
18:49:11  <andythenorth> see, the amounts are totally arbitrary, no?
18:49:16  <andythenorth> might as well be 1t and 2t
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18:51:02  <V453000> it still matters in cases until you got everything working together
18:51:46  <andythenorth> V453000: what was it you hated about farms?
18:51:48  <andythenorth> something
18:52:17  <V453000> tedious to set up, cant reproduce supplies while metal/oil can
18:52:23  <V453000> were the main two
18:52:37  <V453000> basically, it can be tedious to set up but must be rewarding
18:52:38  <andythenorth> frigging tedious
18:52:43  <andythenorth> I hate them
18:52:49  <V453000> if it is tedious but "meh" then most players just go metal/oil and fuck the rest
18:53:22  <andythenorth> also supplies are too fragile
18:53:29  <andythenorth> they collapse horribly, deadlocking networks
18:53:31  <andythenorth> it’s boring
18:53:39  <andythenorth> maybe they should use pax instead
18:54:27  <Alberth> that's the "workers" industry set :)
18:54:52  <V453000> nothing collapses if your network is proper
18:55:03  <V453000> deadlocking is the player problem
18:55:04  <V453000> and if industry set makes it easier to deadlock, network just has to be more immune to it
18:55:14  <V453000> which is good, adds things to be careful about
18:55:15  <andythenorth> I dunno
18:55:21  <andythenorth> I can’t prevent deadlocks
18:55:24  <andythenorth> I’ve been playing 10 years
18:55:34  <andythenorth> it’s boring, trying to ensure you never bridge any networks
18:55:37  <V453000> overflow depots are the ultimate solution :)
18:55:46  <SpComb> infinite depot
18:55:52  <andythenorth> cheating
18:56:09  <V453000> iz feature
18:56:14  <andythenorth> also doesn’t help with cdist routing supplies to arbitrary places
18:56:20  <planetmaker> no problem to get it working with just one network really
18:56:24  <V453000> well you can also build long as fuck loops to let trains go there, not infinite
18:56:30  <V453000> but helping
18:56:42  <V453000> cdist is just bullshit with supplies really
18:56:45  <planetmaker> cdist makes it less optimal to use. Yet still it somewhat works
18:56:46  <V453000> easily breaks games
18:57:08  <V453000> we had one whole farm cluster get 0 supplies for wtf reason
18:57:41  <V453000> trains were going there, everything was set up, but suddenly the distribution stopped liking the place
18:57:47  <andythenorth> because cdist prefers to route 75% of output via one 30t tram
18:57:49  <V453000> idk if it liked it before
18:57:53  <andythenorth> instead of 500t of fast trains
18:57:57  <V453000> still, cdist is just bad with firs
18:58:07  <andythenorth> yeah but cdist is how the game is now
18:58:12  <andythenorth> so FIRS should change
18:58:15  <V453000> is not
18:58:44  <V453000> and being able to decide where supplies go and where they dont, is quite interesting
18:58:51  <V453000> not being told where they should be
18:59:32  <SpComb> never tried industry cdist
18:59:36  <V453000> btw andythenorth I got caught in the andythesouth syndrome; creating automatization for 3 days already, hoping to save time in the FUTURE eventually
18:59:47  <andythenorth> this happens
18:59:48  <SpComb> pax cdist + traditional cargo
19:00:08  <andythenorth> that means transfers
19:04:06  <peter1138> cdest :S
19:05:08  <V453000> =D got 64 tiles ready to be spritesheeted :D
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19:09:55  <peter1138> Should I make viewports double size?
19:10:50  <frosch123> i assume you do not mean the viewport, which you can zoom?
19:11:54  <frosch123> but town/vehicle/industry/news viewports should likely be affected by gui zoom
19:12:00  <peter1138> Yeah I mean all the other ones.
19:12:06  <andythenorth> I wouldn’t
19:12:08  <andythenorth> but you might
19:12:25  <peter1138> Well
19:12:48  <peter1138> Main issue is not the zoom but the actual size.
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19:16:12  <planetmaker> well. error window gets too small for some single words :)
19:18:07  <andythenorth> on my 13" screen, the lovely 2x gui fills a lot of screen

19:18:10  <andythenorth> which is fine
19:18:14  <andythenorth> but can’t fit much on it
19:28:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd assume all default window sizes will be scaled by gui zoom
19:28:43  <Eddi|zuHause> which would include all viewports
19:29:22  <peter1138> No, they're not.
19:30:06  <peter1138> I tried that, it doesn't work out well.
19:31:01  <andythenorth> webkit devtools just aren’t good enough
19:31:08  <andythenorth> back to firebug, even though it’s slow as
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19:49:47  <andythenorth> oh I remember my stupid ide
19:50:01  <andythenorth> automatically change cargo capacity depending if refit is ENSP or FMSP
19:50:04  <andythenorth> dumb eh?
19:55:57  <andythenorth> not so dumb: vehicle for engineering supplies, vehicle for farm supplies, matched appropriately
19:56:02  <andythenorth> that’s nice, easy building
19:57:28  <peter1138> Hmm, actually it's not that bad, but unfortunately the default sizes are only available at window construction :(
19:59:25  <Alberth> I once contemplated making the window description available after construction as well, iirc for screen resizing, but never made anything concrete
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20:26:23  <peter1138> Shouldn't be all that hard. I guess the nwidgetparts can be handled in a different way to apply a new minimum size.
20:39:20  <argoneus> :-)
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20:52:03  <Wolf01> 'night all
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21:03:25  <frosch123> night
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21:04:35  <NGC3982> Windows SmartScreen blocked the 1.4.4 32-bit Windows installer as an "unrecogniced program".
21:04:58  <NGC3982> That's new to me? :)
21:05:47  <glx> that's not smart
21:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's probably a correct categoristation, but why block it?
21:08:38  <glx> to prevent infections
21:09:10  <glx> and if you unblock you assume the risks
21:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> if you think every person you've never met before carries a desease, you should see a doctor
21:10:03  <Eddi|zuHause> and not a desease doctor :p
21:11:43  <glx> when many windows users install stuff from unknown source and become zombies I think it's a good idea to at least make them think twice before installing something :)
21:12:11  <peter1138> They still won't think twice, though.
21:12:18  <glx> some will
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21:12:38  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly, these warning windows are just mindlessly clicked away
21:12:53  <Jinassi> and some line colourful toolbars and view screen 1/10 of a 22' screen
21:13:17  <Jinassi> or use trash bin as archive
21:13:54  <glx> toolbars are nice ;) they make IE very slow to start
21:14:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i hate all these installers that besides the program you want also install a dozen "toolbars"
21:15:13  <glx> all these checkboxes to uncheck, every time
21:15:16  <Jinassi> Java SDK with Ask! toolbar...why, just whyyyy
21:15:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and no amount of "smartwhatever" will protect you from those
21:16:22  <Eddi|zuHause> for all you know, they've been paid to not do that...
21:16:51  <glx> I remember a virus/trojan/whatever named antivirus
21:17:09  <glx> and it was a pain to clean
21:17:19  <planetmaker> it probably was anti other virus ;)
21:17:26  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that a description of every anti virus? :p
21:17:52  <peter1138> Hmm, map height and snow height are the opposite way up on the heightmap world gen screen :S
21:18:05  <Eddi|zuHause> for extra fun effect, install two antivirus :p
21:18:26  <glx> yeah the best way to be totally unprotected :)
21:18:34  <Eddi|zuHause> they block each other, and nobody gets anything done ever again :p
21:31:49  <NGC3982> I was more or less interested in why this version made the smartscreen software start, but none prior to it.
21:35:40  <andythenorth> bed
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21:43:51  <Eddi|zuHause> just assume that none of us know what that program is actually doing
21:44:49  <peter1138> Or what it is.
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21:45:25  <peter1138> Also I think your use of "start" is wrong there.
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22:23:08  <NGC3982> I see
23:19:41  <argoneus> good night train friends
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