Log for #openttd on 29th October 2014:
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03:48:11  <supermop_> how many lights do you use Pikka ?
03:48:49  <Pikka> 3, but there's no rhyme or reason to that. I just added and modified until it looked good. :)
03:49:20  <Pikka> one directly overhead, one to the front-right "sun position", and one behind the camera to fill in shadows slightly.
03:50:03  <supermop_> yeah i need moreambient
03:50:48  <Pikka>
03:50:50  <Pikka>
03:50:58  <Pikka> that was the effect of adding the overhead one :)
03:51:49  <Pikka> (obviously the materials and the textures on the top two changed slightly too)
03:52:09  <Pikka> but they look much more solid if they don't fall off to black so much at the back
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04:04:51  <supermop_> are you not tempted to switch sun to north down her
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05:31:49  <supermop_> do you use white light or slightly warmer?
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09:15:13  <argoneus> good morning train friends
09:20:02  <supermop> yo
09:26:06  <planetmaker> hi
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09:26:53  <planetmaker> supermop, rendering by V: I think he renders the whole multi-tile industry as one and only then has nmlc cut it into the pieces as needed for each individual tile
09:29:23  <peter1138> Dom't do that :)
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09:30:05  <planetmaker> peter1138, why not?
09:30:54  <peter1138> Lack of layout variety.
09:30:55  <planetmaker> if I have a 96px wide building (1x2 tiles), I draw the left 64px on tile 1 and the last 32px on tile2
09:31:08  <planetmaker> well, that's another thing, yes
09:31:31  <planetmaker> but generally rendering a multi-tile thing and only cutting sprites for each tile is a nice way to do.
09:32:01  <peter1138> Ah, multo-tile houses are different.
09:32:23  <planetmaker> not all of his industries can be modularized
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09:32:34  <planetmaker> some could
09:33:47  <supermop> modelling pubs now
09:34:07  <supermop> or 'hotels' as they are all called in this town
09:35:40  <peter1138> planetmaker, only because of the way they're drawn :)
09:36:22  <supermop> planetmaker: i'm not too worried about rendering the whole house and cutting it up, but more juggling what to put on a tile
09:36:24  <planetmaker> peter1138, also the way they work. Thinking of the circular conveyor belt thingy. No way to really break it down without making it a totally different one
09:37:17  <Eddi|zuHause> adding a segment here or there. may make animation tricky, though
09:37:20  <peter1138> That boils down to the same thing. They can't be modular because they weren't designed as modular.
09:37:59  <planetmaker> yes, that makes the animation much more a pain :)
09:38:09  <planetmaker> and yeti yet much bigger :P
09:38:51  <supermop> i dont care too much about whether to do 2 or 3 houses per tile from a scale consideration, more is it more boring to have fewer houses on the tile, or more boring to have less extra stuff, like gardens and alleyways
09:39:29  <planetmaker> not sure that too many houses per tile look too well from our distorted scale POV
09:39:41  <planetmaker> thus IMHO go for fewer houses with more variations
09:40:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i agree
09:41:31  <Eddi|zuHause> although i generally found the length of the example houses weird... i've never ssen a layout like this, the long side facing away from the street
09:42:25  <supermop> i think it is an odd melbourn thing - when ive been to other parts of australia they look more 'regular'
09:42:59  <supermop> maybe that makes it a BAD DESIGN CHOICE tm
09:43:41  <supermop> but they have lots of these row houses that are short and narrow, but very deep
09:44:08  <supermop> the ones i've paced out are typically 8x24 paces
09:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if that's how it is, make it...
09:44:41  <supermop> well sometimes reality is not the best prototype, but i'll see how it goes
09:45:06  <supermop> you may be on to something though - perhaps distorting their proportions would help
09:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause> just be aware that making houses larger than 1x1 tile will make city construction more difficult
09:45:30  <supermop> so they are still long, but only 1:2 or 1:1.5
09:45:40  <supermop> yeah that is what i am afraid of
09:46:00  <supermop> espescially as i usually play with 'better roads'
09:46:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but also, it may provide a new look to cities
09:46:28  <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure you have enough 1x1 houses as "filling"
09:46:30  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, the long side facing away from the street is not too uncommon
09:47:16  <planetmaker> and I agree. Most houses in a house set probably should be 1x1 houses
09:47:59  <supermop> at 4x zoom, a tile is 128px wide?
09:48:42  <Eddi|zuHause> the left corner and the right corner have a distance of 256px
09:49:16  <supermop> yeah, i wonder if separating the gardens etc to a separate tile would be best, so sometimes you could have a long lot, but in tight spaces just the houses alone will fit
09:49:21  <supermop> ok thanks
09:50:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i think in SC4 houses worked like that
09:55:25  <Eddi|zuHause> "Twitch wants to forbid people streaming in underwear or naked"
09:56:43  <supermop> if i wear jeans with nothing underneath, does that count as underwear
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09:59:56  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that reminds me of news that some secret service agents complained about unwanted exposure to nude pictures when they hacked and "reviewed" skype video chats :P
10:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: or the other news story about how police copies naked pictures from confiscated cell phones and then trade them amongst each other?
10:05:40  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i wonder why there is so much fuzz about non-pornographic nakedness...
10:06:27  <Eddi|zuHause> like that guy who lost at the european court who wanted to walk naked across britain.
10:06:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i somehow doubt that would even have been on trial in germany at all...
10:08:38  <planetmaker> you don't understand that, you're from the East ;) Actually I think it might have been here, too, but not entirely sure
10:09:23  <planetmaker> The further West you go, the more prudish it gets, or so. I think
10:10:13  <supermop> yes
10:10:20  <supermop> much much worse in the us
10:10:20  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe. but there was a piece on ARTE recently where they made a trip to munich and the french part of the group was basically shocked about how they encountered people with no clothes on in the middle of the city
10:11:03  <supermop> even though in much of the us, much public nudity is actually legal, you still are likely to be arrested for it
10:11:12  <planetmaker> well, the US are ridiculous. We all know that ;)
10:11:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what you get when a country is founded by religious fanatics
10:11:50  <planetmaker> he, in the how-is-it-called-garden in the city centre, Eddi|zuHause ?
10:11:56  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a reason we drove those people out :p
10:12:02  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yeah
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10:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but maybe munich doesn't really count as "west" :p
10:12:48  <planetmaker> well, I first had to move to Jena to actually see my first official nude bathing lake
10:13:05  <planetmaker> well, half of it. The other half not
10:13:27  <planetmaker> still weired if you go swimming on Sunday afternoon and you run accross your lecturer naked ;)
10:13:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the nudism scene really exploded in east germany
10:13:46  <Eddi|zuHause> although i think that went back a bit after 1990
10:13:57  <planetmaker> likely, yes
10:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> but as far as i've seen, most other countries do not have this legal split between nakedness and sexuality as is common in germany
10:24:34  <planetmaker> I was not aware that we do?
10:25:44  <planetmaker> there's "Erregung öffentlichen Ärgernisses". - Du musst erst beweisen, dass Du öffentlich erregt worden bist ;) (sorry, can't exactly translate that)
10:26:54  <planetmaker> supermop, you houses cover the whole tile(s). Is it supposed to be that tightly packed?
10:28:38  <supermop> yes, but smaller houses farther from city should have space on the sides as well
10:31:05  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it might not follow from the letter of the law, but it's definitely in the culture
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10:46:57  <peter1138> ...
10:48:05  <peter1138> Hurr, pulseaudio got in a funny state, caused ottd to crash on start :S
10:49:18  <b_jonas> pulseaudio is always in a funny state
10:49:22  <b_jonas> that's the norm
10:49:43  <Eddi|zuHause> does "uninstalled" count as a funny state?
11:11:18  <Pikka> good old Nakagin Capsule Tower, supermop :)
11:11:37  <supermop> drew that a looong time ago
11:11:45  <Pikka> lol
11:12:01  <supermop> but thats my totem for TT i guess
11:12:04  <supermop> brb
11:12:19  <Pikka> I just wrote about it a bit in a design 101 university assignment. :)
11:12:31  <Pikka> warmer, btw, to answer your earlier question.
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11:17:38  <FUZxxl> Hello!
11:17:43  <FUZxxl> I have a question about pathfinding.
11:18:15  <planetmaker> just ask
11:19:13  <FUZxxl> I have made a few stations and pathfinding behaves weirdly around them.
11:19:38  <FUZxxl> Let me make a screenshot of one of these stations.
11:21:24  <FUZxxl>
11:22:18  <FUZxxl> Sometimes, when a train tries to leave the station and the direction in which it wants to leave is occupied by another train, it instead makes a sharp bend and enters the other platform
11:22:22  <FUZxxl> which is totally pointless
11:22:38  <FUZxxl> This sometimes causes lockups that are annoying to fix.
11:22:50  <FUZxxl> Is there a solution for this problem? Is my signalling wrong?
11:23:15  <Progman> you can disable 90deg turns in the settings
11:23:30  <FUZxxl> Progman: yeah, I could, but I believe this is not a very good fix.
11:23:33  <planetmaker> the signaling looks ok. And it brings it a bit closer to the destination ;). And disable 90° turns to avoid it
11:23:50  <FUZxxl> planetmaker: So there is no real solution?
11:23:56  <planetmaker> 90° turns are ugly anyway :P. No, none I know
11:24:06  <Progman> different signals I guess
11:24:10  <planetmaker> use path signals alternatively
11:24:20  <FUZxxl> k
11:24:21  <Progman> like path signals or presignal thingy...
11:24:21  <planetmaker> not sure it would change the situation though
11:25:20  <FUZxxl> ok
11:25:34  <FUZxxl> Would it help prohibiting trains from changing directions while halting?
11:26:19  <Progman> disabling 90deg turns will help
11:26:56  <FUZxxl> ok
11:26:58  <peter1138> FUZxxl, pre-signals will never work in that situation (two-way station)
11:27:05  <Progman> or maybe remove the cross tracks entirely so one platform is always for one direction
11:27:07  <peter1138> Just use path signals.
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11:32:15  <peter1138> You should probably forget about using pre-signals at all, they're not useful for normal stuff since path signals arrived.
11:33:41  <supermop> ok
11:33:58  <b_jonas> I'd like a combination (path-based pre-signals)
11:34:30  <supermop> Pikka: i spent quite a bit of time on the metabolists in architecture school myself
11:35:27  <supermop> im sure ive mentioned this before, but back in '94, the first time i had a company survive long enough to see them pop up in game,
11:36:05  <supermop> i was really fascinated by the design - then blown away a few years later when i found it was a real building
11:36:21  <FUZxxl> peter1138: Path signals have the problem that a train chooses a platform when both are occupied,
11:36:24  <supermop> so TTO turned me on to the metabolists,
11:36:26  <FUZxxl> thus blocking the intersection.
11:36:40  <Pikka> good stuff :)
11:36:43  <FUZxxl> I actually prefer pre-signals right now..
11:36:49  <peter1138> FUZxxl, wrong.
11:36:56  * Pikka bbatsomepoint
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11:37:02  <supermop> and then getting excited about seeing the real thing in 2004 got me interested in digging TT back out again!
11:37:11  <peter1138> FUZxxl, *pre-signals* have exactly that problem. path-signals don't have the problem.
11:37:44  <peter1138> FUZxxl, if your station is blocking with path-signals, you are not placing path-signals correctlyh.
11:41:12  <peter1138> < correct path-signal placement.
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11:43:01  <b_jonas> I've had some funny trouble with singals recently... what was it exactly?
11:43:20  <peter1138> b_jonas, sorry my crystal ball is a bit dusty
11:43:39  <b_jonas> I think I had two a line from two big coal mines to a power station, and a train went to the wrong coal mine and couldn't get out
11:43:52  <b_jonas> I don't remember how I did that
11:44:07  <peter1138> That doesn't sound like a signalling issue.
11:45:31  <FUZxxl> peter1138: Okay. Let me try with path signals.
11:45:44  <b_jonas> probably more like a railway shape issue, not with the signals
11:47:27  <b_jonas> I think the problem was that the only way for the train to get out from where it was stuck was to enter the wrong coal mine station, reverse there, then go almost to the power statoin where it can turn, and then go to the right station,
11:48:25  <b_jonas> and I think the pathfinder didn't realize this, and because I built the entry to the coal mine station wrong, it got stuck there with another train
11:50:03  <b_jonas> and I think part of the problem was that it was a double line, but some of the platforms in the station weren't connected to both lines
11:50:43  <peter1138> Bah, scummvm needs a 4x option
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12:13:49  <FUZxxl> How do I close all windows in OpenTTD?
12:14:02  <peter1138> Press delete
12:15:25  <FUZxxl> peter1138: thank you.
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12:18:08  <argoneus> how do I close the last window opened?
12:18:11  <argoneus>  :(
12:18:51  <planetmaker> press delete
12:19:42  <argoneus> is delete the solution to all problems?
12:21:59  <V453000> alt Q
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12:50:26  <planetmaker> argoneus, you phrased your question badly ;). First sticky all others
12:50:58  <argoneus> planetmaker: how did I phrase it badly?
12:51:21  <argoneus> :<
12:55:22  <planetmaker> you wanted to ask a slightly different question (but didn't): "How can I close *only* the last window?".
12:58:41  <V453000> twas obvious
12:59:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well, click the X :p
13:04:25  <V453000> hotkeyzzzz Eddi
13:06:55  <argoneus> I wish there were hotkeys for everything
13:07:04  <argoneus> keyboard is much faster than mouse
13:07:05  <peter1138> Safe?
13:07:16  <argoneus> Safe?
13:07:19  <peter1138> Oh damn, forgot I had scrolled back :-)
13:07:56  <peter1138> V453000, thanks, you made me find a variable that I'd marked as unsafe when it's (probably) not :P
13:13:34  <planetmaker> argoneus, you know hotkeys.cfg, yes?
13:14:11  <argoneus> planetmaker: n-no?
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13:22:46  <supermop> good night
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14:18:08  <FUZxxl> I hate timetables.
14:18:14  <FUZxxl> It's so complicated to get them right.
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14:18:33  <FUZxxl> I'm trying for the third time now and the busses still travel in small groups.
14:18:44  <FUZxxl> s/small/medium sized/
14:18:45  <planetmaker> use auto-separation then
14:19:24  <planetmaker> it's supposed to work. somehow
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14:28:09  <peter1138> Haha
14:28:17  <peter1138> Supposed to work, nice :)
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14:33:36  <planetmaker> I never quite figured how it works
14:33:51  <planetmaker> or too tedious to setup for me. Or both :)
14:40:42  <FUZxxl> planetmaker: auto-separation?
14:40:47  <FUZxxl> Is there documentation?
14:41:00  <planetmaker> yes... in the tooltip for timetables
14:41:04  <planetmaker> maybe in the wiki
14:41:33  <FUZxxl> There are tooltips?!
14:47:33  <lastmikoi> :D
14:49:16  <planetmaker> FUZxxl, until 1.4.x their hover time is a bit too long (2 seconds) by default. you can reduce it to one or to right click
14:49:24  <planetmaker> nightlies reduced that time to 250msec
14:49:34  <planetmaker> (default value that is)
14:51:51  <FUZxxl> planetmaker: What place am I supposed to hover over?
14:53:00  <planetmaker> timetable button maybe? dunno
14:53:07  <planetmaker> there is a string which explains it :D
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14:59:22  <planetmaker> ^ and that I know from translations
15:01:39  <argoneus> auto separation doesn't really work when you have a) many vehicles b) breakdowns
15:03:21  <FUZxxl> k
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15:34:37  <Jinassi> nabend, there someone on redddit that would like to play on jailbroken ipad, do you peeps/devs/hackers have any suggestions?
15:35:20  <peter1138> Smash it.
15:38:09  <planetmaker> lol
15:38:18  <Jinassi> haha good one
15:38:20  <planetmaker> Jinassi, not sure there exist any openttd version fit for iOS
15:38:38  <planetmaker> at least I'm not aware of a current one
15:38:42  <Jinassi> yep, i saw they don't allow opensource
15:39:01  <planetmaker> there likely is (again) a chinese guy who re-labeled it and sells it
15:39:11  <planetmaker> and violates the license by not making it open source
15:39:17  <Jinassi> even response from another one said it was removed game from appstore a while ago
15:39:29  <planetmaker> yes
15:40:06  <Jinassi> typos, not used to new/used laptop
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15:40:40  <Jinassi> well thanks guys
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15:41:37  <planetmaker> well, no worries
15:42:22  <planetmaker> on the other hand: no-one would mind, if it was created and distributed via some 3rd-party store. But I guess apple doesn't allow other stores than its own without jailbreak
15:43:19  <blathijs> Jinassi: Wait, are you saying apple doesn't allow open-source apps in their appstore? I must have misunderstood...
15:43:42  <Jinassi>
15:43:49  <Jinassi> better to read
15:44:09  <planetmaker> blathijs, yes, that's what he (rightfully) says
15:44:27  <Jinassi> words from submitter, not my own, have not read their disclaimer
15:44:37  <planetmaker> the TOS of its AppStore exclude upload of GPL applications (as they're an additional restriction disallowed by GPL)
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15:45:20  <Jinassi> yet their own OS is a fork from linux, or am i wrong?
15:46:39  <blathijs> planetmaker: Right, messy...
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15:46:40  <planetmaker> you're wrong ;)
15:46:47  <blathijs> Jinassi: OSX is BSD-based, not Linux
15:46:53  <planetmaker> ^^
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15:47:08  <planetmaker> it's funny to find all those BSD references in the man pages :)
15:47:12  <blathijs> (perhaps because BSD does _not_ use the GPL, allowing Apple to keep their code closed ;-p)
15:47:42  <planetmaker> well, on the other hand, bigger parts of the core OS *are* GPL
15:47:48  <planetmaker> thinking of Darwin
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17:45:22  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27051 trunk/src/lang/irish.txt (2014-10-29 17:45:14 UTC)
17:45:23  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:24  <DorpsGek> irish - 15 changes by tem
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18:04:51  *** kais58|AFK is now known as kais58
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18:19:14  <andythenorth> hmm
18:19:25  <andythenorth> the MHL thread - idea about ‘cities not on mountaintops’ is probably good
18:19:37  *** oskari892 [] has joined #openttd
18:19:38  <andythenorth> cities should go more down in valleys and such mostly
18:19:53  <planetmaker> yes
18:20:06  <andythenorth> also rivers
18:20:27  <planetmaker> well.... they naturally flow downward. They need no further restriction
18:20:28  <andythenorth> did we years ago fix towns near sea?
18:20:40  <andythenorth> I seem to remember they avoided coasts, and now they don't
18:20:44  <andythenorth> but might be inventing that
18:21:07  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the suggestion was towns preferring rivers btw ;)
18:21:14  <andythenorth> rather than ‘rivers not on mountaintops'
18:21:21  <planetmaker> iirc when a random place is chosen and it's water, the nearest coast tile is searched (within a few tiles, dunno, maybe 10, 20)
18:21:34  <planetmaker> oh, towns preferring rivers. got that wrong :)
18:21:46  <planetmaker> that certainly does not happen currently
18:21:58  <planetmaker> would actually make sense same with coast
18:22:17  <andythenorth> I have quite a lot of nice coastal towns in my current game
18:22:28  <andythenorth> I’m sure I was whining about that ~5 years ago though
18:23:17  <planetmaker> maybe this search for nearby coast tiles was added then. can be :)
18:23:41  * andythenorth takes a huge screenshot
18:23:43  <andythenorth> wonder how long
18:23:56  <Alberth> 15 feet
18:24:03  <andythenorth> I think that’s about right
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18:25:13  <andythenorth> Alberth: actually closer to 24 feet at 1x
18:25:24  <andythenorth> 512x512 map, 24 feet along longest edge
18:25:34  <andythenorth> imagine that as a RL model train :O
18:25:49  <Alberth> biiggg table
18:26:03  <andythenorth> none of you want to see the 65MB screenshot of my game :(
18:26:44  <peter1138> If you have a lot of water, then you will get more coastal towns, I guess,.
18:26:57  <andythenorth> it’s the hm4.png
18:27:02  <Alberth> make a puzzle out of it?
18:27:04  <peter1138> Yeah...
18:28:53  <andythenorth> I dunno, it’s just a nice map,%2027-08-1954.png
18:29:11  <andythenorth> the big sweeping expanse of water is useful for routing ships
18:29:14  <andythenorth> and looks right
18:29:21  <andythenorth> there are loads of nicely place towns
18:29:33  <andythenorth> and empty mountains which make for challenging routes
18:30:20  <andythenorth> I still mostly ignored the rivers for transport, even though they are perfectly placed
18:30:24  <andythenorth> because
docks innit
18:30:29  <peter1138> [640156.371174] Out of memory: Kill process 26375 (iceweasel) score 411 or sacrifice child
18:30:33  <peter1138> haha
18:30:39  <andythenorth> your heightmap :P
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18:34:23  <Alberth> ieks so much bad hills
18:35:36  <Eddi|zuHause> you have a highlight on "sacrifice child"?
18:35:53  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
18:37:04  <peter1138> Hmm, I can't view it :S
18:38:50  <andythenorth> Alberth: it’s a lovely map to play ;)
18:39:11  <Alberth> for a watery game, I can imagine it is :)
18:39:24  <andythenorth> the towns all located sensibly
18:39:29  <andythenorth> and the industry clusters worked
18:39:37  <andythenorth> I had to generate the map about 60 times mind
18:39:48  <V453000> andythenerdth doesnt use trains
18:39:48  <V453000> water is ez
18:40:08  <andythenorth> very hard work
18:40:15  <andythenorth> clicking ‘clone’ on all those ships
18:40:21  <andythenorth> wear and tear on my finger
18:40:45  <V453000> XD
18:40:50  <peter1138> Heh, finally loaded it.
18:40:56  <peter1138> Ahh, all those lovely hills :-)
18:41:13  <andythenorth> you should put it on bananarams
18:41:14  <peter1138> andythenorth, probably would've been more efficient to post the savegame :-)
18:41:33  <andythenorth> peter1138: reloaded newgrfs, unreleased newgrfs, loads of warnings about naught newgrfs breaking the game :P
18:41:44  <andythenorth> naughty *
18:41:45  <peter1138> Hah
18:41:59  <peter1138> No space left on device. Oops.
18:42:25  <peter1138> rootfs                                                   30628368  29049440         44 100% /
18:42:30  <peter1138> Yeah, that's not good lol
18:42:43  <andythenorth> when it gets to 110% that’s interesting
18:42:51  <andythenorth> then you wonder where the fuck it got the 10% from
18:42:58  <andythenorth> we’ve had servers do that
18:43:12  <Alberth> super users :)
18:43:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i've been living on 20GB for / since i started using linux
18:43:39  <peter1138> Hmm, I ought to sort out my 3TB drive and use that...
18:44:03  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, it's an SSD, mostly dedicated to (shh) Windows.
18:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, here too
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18:45:04  <peter1138> Hmm, 7.5GB used by Evolution's cache. Yikes.
18:45:14  <Eddi|zuHause> 20GB /, 50GB windows and 40GB /home or so
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18:45:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and then a lot of stuff on other disks
18:46:16  <Eddi|zuHause> when i run out, it usually helps to clean out older kernel versions. especially the sources :p
18:46:16  <planetmaker> public   [11752:4b442698dd7f default] 2009-04-25 22:12 +0000 rubidium
18:46:16  <planetmaker> 	(svn r16147) -Feature [FS#2635]: give the town generator a slight tendency to build towns near water by not discarding watery random tiles but by searching for near land (db48x) @ andythenorth
18:46:29  <planetmaker> so 5 years ago is a pretty good guess :P
18:46:48  <Eddi|zuHause> also i put package manager cache on another disk
18:46:52  <Rubidium_> did I commit it that long ago?!?
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18:47:04  <planetmaker> seems so. Sorry for the highlight :)
18:47:14  <planetmaker> I also thought it wasn't that long ago
18:47:16  <Rubidium_> I don't mind
18:47:17  <andythenorth> he he, I wasn’t inventing it
18:47:21  <andythenorth> so many improvements
18:47:30  <andythenorth> all the small thing
18:47:32  <andythenorth> things *
18:47:38  * andythenorth typing problems :(
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18:47:51  <peter1138> And that'll be why we have more tiny islands with silly towns on them? :p
18:47:56  <andythenorth> I like them
18:48:01  <andythenorth> except they fail to grow
18:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it should check whether the land area is large enough
18:48:32  <Eddi|zuHause> like 5x5 or so :)
18:49:16  <planetmaker> I don't mind those island towns either. Give helis and ships a purpose :)
18:49:30  <andythenorth> try growing them :P
18:49:32  <andythenorth> they get smaller
18:50:43  <andythenorth> what’s not to like? :D
18:50:49  <andythenorth> it’s got a church, a stadium...
18:50:56  <andythenorth> some garages
18:51:04  <andythenorth> and room to grow to the next island!
18:53:19  <planetmaker> and it got a totally fitting name!
18:53:25  <peter1138> /: 14014414848 bytes were trimmed
18:53:27  <peter1138> Yeah
18:53:57  <peter1138> Now to stop evolution making a cache of the email that is stored locally in maildir anyway... o_O
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19:31:51  <andythenorth> hmm
19:31:54  <andythenorth> you see
19:32:00  <andythenorth> the problem
19:32:09  <Rubidium_> is cat's not here?
19:32:15  <Rubidium_> ;)
19:32:17  <andythenorth> if transporting cargo *short* distances paid more, people would complain
19:32:29  <andythenorth> and if cargo payment ignored distance, people would complain
19:32:55  <andythenorth> so clearly the current situation is somehow an optimum
19:33:00  <andythenorth> maybe a local optimum
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19:34:01  <planetmaker> quite right, andythenorth :)
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19:35:24  <peter1138> Hmm?
19:35:29  <andythenorth> is forums
19:36:00  <peter1138> Do I dare?
19:36:08  <andythenorth> sensible request
19:36:11  <andythenorth> no good answer
19:36:24  <andythenorth> a perennial issue :P
19:36:44  <peter1138> Cargo dest is the answer.
19:37:40  <andythenorth> I dunno
19:37:53  <andythenorth> what was the question? o_O
19:38:02  <andythenorth> the distance payment rate has never bothered me
19:42:30  <Alberth> just post the first two lines, showing that alternatives aren't good either :)
19:42:42  <Alberth> let the reader draw conclusions :)
19:43:24  <planetmaker> what does "perennial" mean?
19:44:01  <planetmaker> ah, uhm :) yeah
19:44:54  <andythenorth> neverending story
19:48:49  <peter1138> Neverending Aaaaandy
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19:57:31  <andythenorth> how do I get virtualbox to give me my computer back :(
19:57:41  <andythenorth> snaggles the keyboard and mouse from my OS
19:57:55  <Rubidium_> right ctrl?
19:58:32  <andythenorth> don’t have one
19:58:39  <andythenorth> installing the guest additions
19:58:43  <andythenorth> that sometimes works
19:58:47  <planetmaker> shift+ctrl? or right-cmd
19:59:51  <andythenorth> right-cmd gives me some kind of windows ‘do everything’ menu
20:00:17  <andythenorth> double tap of left-cmd
20:00:19  <andythenorth> seems to work
20:00:25  <andythenorth> IE 7 testing, how I love thee
20:00:53  <planetmaker> I still like you pointing me to for cheap windows VMs :)
20:04:09  * peter1138 ponders breaking tons of NewGRFs.
20:05:00  <andythenorth> \o/
20:05:02  <andythenorth> goan
20:05:16  <andythenorth> what breaks? o_O
20:05:45  <peter1138> Who knows?
20:06:48  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
20:07:19  <Wolf01> hello o/
20:07:46  <peter1138> xUSSR for one.
20:07:51  <peter1138> av8 has dodgy elements.
20:08:21  *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@] has joined #openttd
20:09:40  <peter1138> ukrs2 as well, yarr
20:09:55  <planetmaker> iron horse?
20:10:00  <planetmaker> pineapple trains?
20:10:11  <planetmaker> nuts?
20:10:37  <peter1138> Well, the proliferation of this "BAD FEATURE" thing means these more modern sets are not so bad.
20:10:49  <planetmaker> :)
20:11:31  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
20:12:07  <peter1138> dbg: [grf] [nuts_unrealistic_train_set-0.7.4/nuts.grf:13264] GetGroupFromGroupID(0xCC:0x8A): Groupid 0x0E00 does not exist, leaving empty
20:12:10  <peter1138> Hmm
20:12:16  <peter1138> That's something else...
20:14:09  <frosch123> standard nml
20:14:19  <frosch123> nml fakes failed callbacks by referencing invalid groups
20:15:10  <frosch123> exploiting undocumented behaviour :p
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20:16:20  <glx> never a good idea
20:16:50  <planetmaker> he
20:16:56  <peter1138> Yeah, I have a patch that disables broken GRFs :p
20:17:04  <planetmaker> :D
20:17:18  <peter1138> It was only allowed originally because our handling was so bad that nothing would've worked :p
20:20:07  <peter1138>
20:20:38  * peter1138 ponders rewording it.
20:21:23  <frosch123> unsafe in purchase list?
20:21:27  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:21:31  <peter1138> Sure.
20:21:42  <frosch123> what var is unsafe there?
20:22:24  <peter1138> Current year.
20:23:13  <peter1138> I don't make any distinction between built vehicles and purchase lists.
20:23:42  <frosch123> fair enough
20:24:09  <frosch123> can't think of a use-case where purchase list would need more vars than after construction
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20:27:22  <peter1138> Although... in this case, indeed, that var is only used in the purchase list chain.
20:27:49  <frosch123> i guess it is from before "construction year" worked in purchase list
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20:31:23  <peter1138> I could disable the checks in the purchase list.
20:31:43  <peter1138> It's just one if-condition.
20:35:00  <peter1138> Gives rise to stuff working in the purchase list which then doesn't work when you buy it.
20:35:16  <frosch123> yeah, better keep it
20:37:02  <planetmaker> what about things which rely on 'last service date' or 'construction date' which should reflect in purchase list?
20:37:20  <frosch123> those vars are available in purchase list
20:37:23  <planetmaker> in purchase list those aren't available, but current_year is (iirc)
20:37:39  <peter1138> They are, they're simulated.
20:37:59  <frosch123> they return the current date, but are considered safe :p
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20:38:20  <planetmaker> ok, good :)
20:38:35  <peter1138> case 0x4B: return _date; // Long date of last service
20:38:38  <peter1138> etc :-)
20:39:01  <peter1138> Although...
20:39:17  <peter1138> Ah, long date, that's why it's 4x.
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20:49:56  <planetmaker> g'night
20:50:00  <andythenorth> bye planetmaker
20:50:14  <andythenorth> frosch123: btw my current game benefits from visual effect creation ;)
20:50:39  * andythenorth wonders if the game is really nearly finished
20:51:13  <frosch123> "benefits" sounds weird in that context :)
20:51:27  <andythenorth> ‘is enhanced by’ :P
20:51:48  <andythenorth> are most ponies now done?
20:51:50  <andythenorth> what’s left?
20:52:21  <frosch123> new object construction by industries
20:52:25  <frosch123> coloured smoke
20:52:35  <frosch123> ship waves as effect vehicles
20:52:55  <andythenorth> improved docks
20:53:02  <andythenorth> consist management
20:53:22  <frosch123> that's now newgrf feature :p
20:53:35  <andythenorth> I think that’s about it
20:53:37  <frosch123> if you add the non-newgrf stuff, i have a list of 150 things or so
20:53:46  <andythenorth> well
20:53:49  <peter1138> Hmm, wonder if I can upload stuff to bananas
20:53:50  <andythenorth> that’s a lot :)
20:54:36  <frosch123> peter1138: debug vehicles is very popular
20:54:39  <andythenorth> in Iron Horse, Road Hog and Squid there is not a single additional newgrf feature I would want right now
20:54:49  <peter1138> Debug vehicles?
20:54:55  <andythenorth> FIRS would benefit from object creation, nothing else
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20:55:58  <frosch123> not as popular as albert's "example staircase" heightmap though
20:56:41  <andythenorth> what landscape is this? o_O
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20:59:04  <peter1138> Hmm, apparently I already have a GRF on there... UK waypoints.
20:59:08  <peter1138> Dwonloaded 61000 times :p
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21:00:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: the trees are weird
21:00:54  <frosch123> the light ones are considerable taller than the other
21:01:09  <andythenorth> odd aren’t they
21:01:15  <andythenorth> kind of TTD-ish though
21:01:42  <peter1138> Unrealistic curve
21:01:59  <peter1138> andythenorth, what should I call this height map?
21:02:16  <andythenorth> hm4?
21:02:19  <peter1138> Yeah
21:02:22  <andythenorth> call it hm4
21:02:24  <peter1138> Oh
21:02:25  <andythenorth> just do a series
21:02:28  <andythenorth> hm5
21:02:29  <andythenorth> hm6
21:02:31  <andythenorth> hm7
21:02:34  <andythenorth> you can see how it goes
21:03:07  <andythenorth> if you must have a name, Big Bend?
21:03:15  <frosch123> call it "Purchase Heightmap Generators now - only 19.95 his month"
21:03:19  <andythenorth> ha
21:03:29  <peter1138> :-)
21:03:46  <Eddi|zuHause> can't you just make "unsafe" variables "safe" by returning a fixed value?
21:04:10  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: what's the point of that?
21:04:24  <frosch123> make people search for why their grf does weird things?
21:04:28  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: a GRF should not be able to desync a game
21:04:45  <frosch123> that's the wrong end
21:04:46  <Eddi|zuHause> no matter how weird the GRF gets
21:04:55  <frosch123> mainly a grf should do what the author thinks it does
21:05:05  <andythenorth> grf desyncing a game is fine
21:05:14  <andythenorth> it’s broken
21:05:14  <frosch123> ottd should not approximate some similar behaviour
21:05:16  <andythenorth> so break
21:05:22  <peter1138> Actually my patch does make it safe.
21:05:36  <peter1138> It fails the callback and warns the player (who is hopefully the set author...)
21:06:19  <Eddi|zuHause> fail the callback, and warn only if newgrf_developer is active?
21:06:27  <peter1138> Maybe.
21:07:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, the game should not desync, ever.
21:07:26  <peter1138> But we warn on other stupid things, like changing length in the wrong place.
21:07:34  <andythenorth> why not desync?
21:07:41  <andythenorth> we’re not running nuclear power
21:07:51  <andythenorth> desyncing newgrfs will soon get binned or fixed
21:07:53  <andythenorth> problem solved
21:08:03  <Eddi|zuHause> no, they're not.
21:08:11  <peter1138> andythenorth, the idea is to fix these little niggles to prevent the endless stream of "this game desyncs for no reason"
21:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> they stick around, and cause unneeded support requests
21:08:18  <andythenorth> hmm ok
21:08:26  * andythenorth moves on
21:08:40  <peter1138> I do like the last one "this game desyncs, but I don't have any savegames"
21:08:46  <Eddi|zuHause> desyncs are a mighty pain to even determine that the GRF is at fault in the first place
21:08:46  <peter1138> Cheers...
21:10:11  <peter1138> Heh, can't really say this is GPL, as there's no source :S
21:10:23  <Eddi|zuHause> dancing intermission:
21:10:27  <peter1138> Hmm, maybe I should also save the seeds, although it's a bit late for this one.
21:10:38  <andythenorth> peter1138: so got any more?
21:10:42  <andythenorth> not that I’ve finished my game yet
21:10:54  <andythenorth> we should all stop pissing about with actual openttd and make GS
21:10:57  <andythenorth> I am feeling a lack
21:11:05  <andythenorth> SV is great, but I’ve played it to death
21:15:17  <Eddi|zuHause> ask the resident GS developer?
21:16:05  <andythenorth> there is one?
21:16:30  <peter1138> Bah, why isn't town separate an option?
21:16:36  <andythenorth> I want to learn how to write a GS, but not alone, and also
21:16:36  <peter1138> Should I make it one?
21:16:48  <peter1138> *separation
21:16:53  <andythenorth> maybe
21:16:55  <andythenorth> never bothered me
21:17:00  <andythenorth> got enough map options
21:18:20  <peter1138> Hmm, wonder how it behaves in 1.4.4
21:18:24  <andythenorth> do you have tiny towns crowded around your cities?
21:18:29  <andythenorth> pretty common on my maps
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21:18:56  <peter1138> Oh wow, it sucks on on 1.4.4 :p
21:22:15  <peter1138> Towns seem to avoid mountains already.
21:22:28  <peter1138> Probably just avoiding lots of slope though.
21:23:58  <frosch123> i think towns need a flat tile or something
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21:24:26  <andythenorth> they didn’t build in the mountains much in my game
21:24:34  *** MTs-iPad [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:24:35  <andythenorth> they’ll build on flat-tops that tgp produces
21:24:45  <frosch123> i think towns are deleted again if they result in zero population or something
21:24:51  <frosch123> that is, if no houses could be built
21:25:13  <frosch123> hmm, but that should not restrict slopes
21:25:14  <andythenorth> sloped towns are a PITA
21:25:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen 0 population towns
21:25:22  <andythenorth> can’t build road stops easily
21:25:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but usually they have a church
21:26:05  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'm pretty sure that towns can only be created on flat tiles
21:27:46  <peter1138>
21:27:55  <peter1138> Should we do that? My instincts say no.
21:29:01  <Eddi|zuHause> original TT had much more prominent window and button borders
21:29:09  <andythenorth> no
21:29:13  <andythenorth> 1996 called
21:29:17  <andythenorth> it would like its bevels back
21:29:32  <andythenorth> we use 1 pixel highlight and shadow
21:29:33  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, sure...
21:29:36  <andythenorth> not fricking huge bevels
21:29:44  <andythenorth> TTO was dog ugly
21:29:49  <andythenorth> he improved it
21:33:45  <peter1138> png6!
21:33:47  <peter1138> er
21:33:48  <peter1138> png9!
21:34:00  <andythenorth> is there a shake-head emoticon?
21:34:09  <peter1138> :o
21:34:31  <peter1138>
21:34:32  <peter1138> lol
21:35:04  <andythenorth> I want multi-threaded MP3 playback
21:35:12  <andythenorth> so it’s faster
21:36:03  <andythenorth> road hog idea
21:36:59  <Eddi|zuHause> real life cubicles!
21:37:46  <peter1138> "zomg industry generation 4096x4096 with high indstries is slow"
21:37:49  <peter1138> shocking
21:38:04  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i don't think i have an opinion on the bevels
21:38:18  <andythenorth> I blame FIRS
21:38:31  <andythenorth> hmm
21:38:43  * andythenorth was talking to Australians in Brisbane at 6am UK time, and it wasn’t Pikka
21:38:46  <peter1138> I blame using a ridicuously sized map.
21:38:49  <andythenorth> maybe I could stop working now?
21:39:36  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it wouldn't be ridiculous if each of the 16 cores handled a 1024x1024 corner of the map :p
21:39:41  <peter1138> Starting a new game on hm4... dunno where to start.
21:40:09  <Eddi|zuHause> why would you ever play the same map twice?
21:40:26  <andythenorth> peter1138: which GS?
21:40:31  <peter1138> None
21:40:46  <peter1138> Should I?
21:41:03  <Eddi|zuHause> no. GS are for people who cannot stick to their own rules
21:41:26  <andythenorth> or people lacking imagination
21:41:44  <andythenorth> or overly-focussed on win conditions
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21:44:55  <peter1138> Hmm, that's why I can't decide where to start. It's too big.
21:45:17  <Eddi|zuHause> make it a 64x64 map
21:45:24  <peter1138> Shut it!
21:46:03  <Eddi|zuHause> there are only extremes in this world!
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21:48:09  <andythenorth> start in the middle
21:48:15  <andythenorth> or at Flodlingpool
21:48:22  <peter1138> Which is water :D
21:48:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the map andy has shown has too much water in it...
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21:50:40  <andythenorth> relative to what scale of idealism? :o
21:51:02  <peter1138> If you want to use ships, you need water.
21:51:31  <andythenorth> also if you don’t want trains everywhere
21:51:35  <andythenorth> ditto
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21:59:14  *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:b086:7db8:b2a5:b2a4] has quit [Quit: .]
22:03:22  <peter1138> Squid purchase list... what
22:03:54  <Eddi|zuHause> proof that andy's mental condition is getting worse :p
22:07:47  *** TomyLobo [] has quit [Quit: Standby mode...]
22:08:01  <andythenorth> is problem?
22:09:18  <peter1138>
22:09:20  <peter1138> Playing that now.
22:09:23  <peter1138> Smaller.
22:09:26  <peter1138> Evidently.
22:09:31  <andythenorth> Squids?
22:10:09  <peter1138> Different algorithm too. This is using the TGP algorithm, which is kinda faster.
22:11:16  * andythenorth tests it
22:11:31  <peter1138> It's kinda bland, there's no pointy mountains.
22:12:28  <andythenorth> yup
22:12:42  <andythenorth> some maps have that jeuxneuxsayquoix
22:12:47  <andythenorth> and some aint'
22:12:58  <andythenorth> ain’t
22:13:38  <peter1138> This algorithm doesn't take 8 minutes to make a map you hate, which is good.
22:13:57  <peter1138> But it doesn't really have a concept of 'smooth'
22:17:02  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
22:18:06  <peter1138> Hmm, not making any money :(
22:18:37  <peter1138> Maybe I need some ctrl-alt-C investment.
22:20:05  <Wolf01> 'night
22:20:11  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:20:34  <andythenorth> your shame will be forever known
22:20:49  <frosch123> maybe he did alt+1 instead
22:21:15  <Eddi|zuHause> or alt+0? :p
22:21:45  <peter1138> Does nothing on my build.
22:22:14  <frosch123> not sure whether alt+0 was fixed
22:22:23  <frosch123> somewhen it failed because it was optimised away
22:23:26  <andythenorth> also
22:23:27  <andythenorth> bedtime
22:23:37  <andythenorth> bye
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22:29:42  <peter1138> I'm not on a debug build, so...
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22:47:56  <argoneus> o/
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22:56:22  <supermop> whats up
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23:17:08  <argoneus> good night train friends
23:17:18  <Supercheese> Buenas noches
23:17:23  <argoneus> y tu
23:17:35  <argoneus> or tu tambien
23:17:36  <argoneus> w/e
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23:44:56  <frosch123> night
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