Log for #openttd on 21st November 2014:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:04:14  *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
00:17:47  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:20:30  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
00:33:14  *** JacobD88 [] has joined #openttd
00:36:40  *** JacobD88 [] has quit []
01:12:19  *** Stomatolog [~oftc-webi@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:13:08  *** killertester [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:20:01  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
01:40:02  *** mordant [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:44:07  *** DDR [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:44:28  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
02:32:10  *** SHOTbyGUN [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:47:59  *** glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
04:33:17  *** Extrems [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:35:54  *** KWKdesign [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:36:06  *** KWKdesign [] has joined #openttd
04:56:15  *** Hazzard_ [] has joined #openttd
05:16:59  *** supermop [] has joined #openttd
05:56:01  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
05:56:16  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
05:58:51  *** Flygon_ [] has joined #openttd
05:58:52  *** Flygon__ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:00:59  *** Pikka [] has joined #openttd
06:06:18  *** Extrems [] has joined #openttd
06:33:07  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has joined #openttd
06:36:56  *** Supercheese [] has quit [Quit: Valete omnes]
06:38:37  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:40:13  *** Pikka [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
06:43:18  *** kais58 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:43:22  *** TomyLobo [] has joined #openttd
06:44:50  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
06:47:36  <supermop> yo
06:57:31  *** kais58 [] has joined #openttd
07:09:44  *** DDR [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:18:37  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
07:20:07  *** Hazzard_ [] has quit [Quit: Goodbye.]
07:29:38  *** TomyLobo [] has quit [Quit: Standby mode...]
07:55:52  *** sla_ro|master [] has joined #openttd
07:57:17  *** Pensacola [] has joined #openttd
08:13:29  *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:5501:aa51:946e:51b7] has joined #openttd
08:35:00  *** pxr [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:35:15  *** killertester [] has joined #openttd
09:09:28  <V453000> Eddi: I wanted to force strong penalty in case Express-Only trains hauled also cargo wagon [the universal wagon refit to cargo instead of pass/mail/gold/diam/valu]
09:12:47  <argoneus> ayy
09:14:17  <V453000> but I suppose changing the capacity to 0 is less wtf
09:14:19  <V453000> anyway
09:15:45  <planetmaker> V453000, simply do not allow attachment instead of doing wtf with 0 cargo or low speed :S
09:16:17  <planetmaker> both of those things are equally annoying. Majorly, I have to say
09:17:05  <planetmaker> do not intoduce such bullshit just for the sake of saving *one* vehicleID where you have thousands free
09:17:37  <V453000> there will be options probably
09:17:52  <V453000> but the attachment tends to be confusing just as well
09:17:58  <planetmaker> if you don't want it universally refittable, just don't make it so
09:18:36  <planetmaker> I mean... what's the point to allow a refit in order to just say "Àtsch, you can refit, but not use it!"
09:19:52  <planetmaker> not allowing attachment is much clearer than a no-feedback capacity or speed
09:20:24  <V453000> capacity can have feedback through vehicle sprites
09:20:39  <planetmaker> attachment hauls a big error message at the player
09:20:42  <V453000> remember the wtf sprites like MORE that mb had in db set? :P idk if they are still there
09:20:44  <planetmaker> nothing he needs to understand
09:20:51  <planetmaker> yes, I do. Big uglyness
09:21:05  <planetmaker> worst feature there is in that set, really
09:21:07  <V453000> about just as much as an error
09:21:36  <planetmaker> that's bullshit, total bullshit. If you don#t want it attached, that's what the attachment callback is for
09:21:37  <V453000> sure but controlling length of consist by it is something different :)
09:21:50  <planetmaker> and if you don't want to allow that refit, that's the refit callback used for
09:21:59  <planetmaker> don't allow everything and then cripple certain options
09:22:09  <planetmaker> that's  HUGE bogus bullshit behaviour
09:22:56  <planetmaker> use the feedback to allow things which are meant to give the corresponding feedback
09:23:29  <V453000> I might just provide both options while at it, selectible by parameter
09:23:42  <planetmaker> *urgs*
09:23:47  <V453000> I can see why you think so but at the same time I think my solution is just fine
09:24:15  <planetmaker> that's actually like the features I totally dislike with ussr set. silent changes of stuff without feedback
09:24:36  <planetmaker> and don't tell me sprites change. That's not proper feedback
09:24:46  <V453000> it is
09:24:47  <planetmaker> you know them. But that's not immediately clear.
09:25:01  <planetmaker> it's bad, if you could say clearly instead "doesn't work"
09:25:02  <V453000> if sprites change to huge red text "SHIT IS HAPPENING", it is clear
09:25:10  <planetmaker> that's bullshit UI
09:25:23  <V453000> well the error disappears after a short while anyway? :P
09:25:35  <planetmaker> that's the point. Somewhen a player might notice. If at all
09:25:57  <planetmaker> just do not ignore the machanisms which are there to tell players. Use them
09:26:05  <planetmaker> Or they will totally be "wtrf? what's wrong"
09:26:44  <planetmaker> you cannot do better with sprites than the UI which is meant to tell players
09:26:48  <V453000> purchase menu text in red explaisn whats wrong quite quickly too
09:27:03  <planetmaker> no. People don't read
09:27:09  <V453000> 2bad
09:27:14  <V453000> then they dont need error message :D
09:27:14  <planetmaker> or: "but I can attach it, why doesn't it work?"
09:27:23  <planetmaker> yes, they do. Because then it simply doesn't work
09:27:28  <V453000> they can see they cant "really" attach it
09:27:35  <planetmaker> but your approach makes it appear to work and screw them at the same time
09:27:38  <V453000> and if pax cargo is default they only notice after refitting to freight
09:27:51  <planetmaker> and don't call it universal wagon, if it isn't
09:28:00  <V453000> it will be ultimate wagon now (:
09:31:33  <V453000> I will still consider things, there will be a lot of options to choose from, too, but I still see my solution as okay
09:32:00  <V453000> so far from talking to players I have seen 99% of reports about "why is train not autoreplacing"
09:32:30  <V453000> obviously because there is wrong wagon
09:32:57  <V453000> admittedly they probably dont autoreplace between express and cargo wagons
09:33:28  <V453000> but that is why I will provide all options, and at some point choose what should be the default
09:33:38  *** Mek_ [] has joined #openttd
09:37:58  *** Mek [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:39:30  *** berndj [] has quit [Quit: ZNC -]
09:40:52  *** Pensacola [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:49:29  <planetmaker> V453000, for that reason: don't make it articulated vehicles. Just make it engines and wagons all separately. And if you then want to adopt looks of wagons to engine, use a switch which queries the engineID and draw different wagon graphics
09:49:40  <planetmaker> but if they are just separate vehicles, autoreplace is no problem at all
09:50:36  <V453000> it is engines and wagons, but wagons are articulated
09:50:40  <V453000> the 2x 4/8 ones
09:51:22  <V453000> but the ultimate wagon must be able to appear both as 4/8 and 8/8, meaning it has to be 1+2+2+2+1 articulated vehicle =D
09:52:28  <planetmaker> uh, why?
09:52:40  <planetmaker> you can simply use one wagon with length 4 or 8?
09:52:59  <V453000> not if I cant change amount of articulated vehicles in consist
09:53:07  <V453000> (keeping total length at 8/8 is key)
09:53:21  <planetmaker> no, but why would you need more than one vehicle for that wagon?
09:53:26  <planetmaker> ah, ok
09:53:36  <V453000> autoreplace again :>
09:54:06  <planetmaker> why must it appear as 4/8 and 8/8?
09:54:20  <planetmaker> can't it always be 8/8? And just look like 2* 4/8?
09:54:23  <planetmaker> as one vehicle?
09:55:04  <V453000> doesnt turn in half in curves :/
09:55:27  <V453000> and that already breaks curve speeds, might as well break them completely with 1+2+2+2+1
09:55:44  <planetmaker> ok
09:56:17  <planetmaker> anyway, that's the same vehicleID in all cases. So how does that interfere with autoreplace?
09:56:41  <planetmaker> (though why doesn't 1+6+1 or 3+2+3 work?
09:56:59  <planetmaker> (depending on 2* 4/8 or 1*8/8)
09:57:05  <V453000> if I write it as x1+Y2+Z2+Y2+x1
09:57:15  <V453000> Y2 is centers of 4/8s
09:57:19  <V453000> and Z2 is center of 8/8
09:57:28  <planetmaker> aye
09:57:34  <V453000> well thats why, proper turning
09:57:40  <planetmaker> yep, agreed
09:57:51  <planetmaker> ok, and what's the autoreplace issue now?
09:58:06  <V453000> now the main issue is that I have like 7 various wagons for various engines
09:58:13  <V453000> and all the bullshit "this engine can only haul those wagons"
09:58:28  <V453000> with the ultimate wagon you would autoreplace only engines and wagons would automatically follow
09:58:45  <planetmaker> follow in what way?
09:58:53  <planetmaker> you mean adopt graphics? that doesn't need any refit
09:58:56  <V453000> adapt sprites / all stats
09:59:02  <V453000> no, that keeps original refit
09:59:23  <V453000> the issue of ultimate wagon would come when the wagon would try to refit to coal when attached by a pax-only train
09:59:42  <V453000> since the pax-only trains are vastly superior in all stats, there would be low sense in using anything else
09:59:48  <planetmaker> yes. Just use the refit callback. Query the lead engine in that callback and return "allowed yes/no"
10:00:10  <V453000> that is what I asked about earlier =D so I can change refittability based on leading engine?
10:00:20  <planetmaker> yes, I would think so
10:00:25  <planetmaker> use PARENT scope
10:00:36  <planetmaker> and position in consist
10:03:02  <V453000> well if that works then it solves everything :D
10:03:54  *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@] has joined #openttd
10:03:55  <V453000> position in consist probably isnt important, the engine doesnt need any switch, it has clearly defined what to refit to, just the wagons and  it doesnt matter where they are in tha consist :)
10:07:09  <V453000> will try to do stuff tomorrow
10:07:18  <V453000> alcohol and stuff todey
10:09:32  <V453000> maybe I can try to get it done after lunch =D back soon
10:09:57  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
10:10:01  <andythenorth> BAD FEATURES
10:10:17  <V453000> YES
10:10:51  <planetmaker> agreed. You still shouldn't allow attachment of the wagons in the first place
10:11:00  <planetmaker> if the current cargo doesn't match
10:11:43  <planetmaker> or just have one wagon per engine type :P
10:11:50  <andythenorth> oh you’re actually talking about BAD FEATURES :P
10:11:52  * andythenorth -> logs
10:12:06  <planetmaker> :P
10:13:25  <andythenorth> oic
10:13:34  <andythenorth> I didn’t understand why you’re having 2 wagons tbh
10:13:42  <andythenorth> but I don’t know nuts very well :)
10:13:50  <andythenorth> apart from some evil trains I remember
10:13:56  <andythenorth> 1 wagon is fine
10:18:24  <planetmaker> hm, new irons for the horse
10:26:29  <andythenorth> only a small one
10:30:31  *** Xrufuian [] has quit [Quit: Quit]
10:37:34  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i imagine 0 capacity will break a lot of AIs, and confuse a lot of players
10:37:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a BAD FEATURE waiting to happen
10:39:15  <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i think 2 wagons is the cleanest solution
10:42:35  <andythenorth> or just 1
10:42:50  <andythenorth> no limits
10:42:53  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
10:44:19  *** Flygon__ [] has joined #openttd
10:51:11  *** Flygon_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:05:13  <supermop> hello
11:07:32  *** itsatacoshop247 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:09:22  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
11:09:44  <andythenorth> V453000: remind me, what’s the problem with having just 1 wagon?
11:10:37  <Eddi|zuHause> boring gameplay, i presume
11:11:06  <peter1138> Isn't that the point of NUTS?
11:11:26  <andythenorth> bloody tourist cargo
11:11:34  <andythenorth> sorry George :)
11:11:40  <supermop> damnit andy new ih?
11:11:47  <supermop> i just started a game
11:12:15  <supermop> well about to quit
11:12:35  <peter1138> Do tourists pay more than commuters?
11:12:42  *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
11:12:44  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
11:12:44  <andythenorth> depends on max loan
11:12:47  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
11:12:48  <peter1138> (Well, ignoring season passes and the like)
11:13:00  <Alberth> hi hi
11:14:16  <andythenorth> tourists are bloody express as well as pax
11:14:22  <andythenorth> which fucks over refits
11:14:23  <andythenorth> nvm
11:14:40  <andythenorth> 'non_all_freight': ['TOUR'] :P
11:14:45  <peter1138> Stupid cargo.
11:15:55  <andythenorth> we all do stupid things
11:15:56  <andythenorth> :)
11:16:15  <supermop> i once rode in an open car as a tourist i see no issue
11:16:32  <andythenorth> fair point
11:16:51  <andythenorth> maybe I should allow the mail cars to haul tourists :P
11:16:57  <andythenorth> ‘suitcases'
11:17:04  <supermop> really a tourist should want an exciting interesting ride
11:17:21  <supermop> baggage avtually does sound quite a good idea
11:17:32  <Alberth> max loan isn't done yet ?
11:17:51  <supermop> why not model tourists as bags?
11:20:01  <andythenorth> hmm
11:20:03  <andythenorth> where is my ECS
11:20:26  <andythenorth> which vectors do I need?
11:20:43  <andythenorth> Basic Vector for Arctic?
11:20:46  <Alberth> (1, 0) and (0, 1)
11:20:55  <andythenorth> Construction Vector by Pikka?
11:21:03  <Alberth> new horse, I see
11:21:14  <andythenorth> Basic Vector II?
11:21:22  <andythenorth> which one is Tourists?
11:22:09  <andythenorth> ugh
11:22:17  <andythenorth> released version of OTTD has tiny GUI
11:22:27  <andythenorth> like it’s 2013 or something
11:22:50  <Alberth> town, for 1.1.2
11:23:00  <Alberth>
11:23:40  <andythenorth> ta
11:23:46  <Alberth> although I never managed to get any tourist :p
11:24:35  <V453000> planetmaker: nuts currently does have one wagon per engine class kind of :P iz bad
11:24:58  *** Marshy [~oftc-webi@] has joined #openttd
11:25:05  *** Hazzard_ [] has joined #openttd
11:25:12  <V453000> andythenorth: the problem with 1 wagon is that there are express trains which are better than anything else, and are meant to only carry express cargoes
11:25:43  <andythenorth> are they faster than other trains?
11:27:06  <V453000> a lot
11:27:11  <V453000> faster, stronger, better
11:27:57  <V453000> if disallowing to refit the wagons to specific cargoes with some engines works, it could be fine then
11:28:48  <andythenorth> confusing
11:29:18  <andythenorth> you need two wagons, then either prevent attach, or use a speed limit
11:29:19  <Marshy> Ola
11:29:24  <andythenorth> speed limits are the answer
11:29:34  <andythenorth> or get rid of the express trains
11:29:43  <andythenorth> which is even easier decision
11:30:19  <supermop> dont see new horse - do i need new nightly?
11:30:30  <andythenorth> not on bananas yet
11:30:32  <andythenorth> small oversight
11:30:38  <V453000> bad decision though :) they have their use
11:30:39  * andythenorth doing chores
11:30:50  <V453000> speed limits are not helping either if the train is stronger :)
11:30:53  <andythenorth> V453000: well get rid of the other engines then
11:30:56  <andythenorth> just use express
11:31:00  <V453000> ... :)
11:31:12  <V453000> variety is a word? :P
11:31:52  *** Hazzard [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:31:56  <Alberth> as in, a sequence of letter without whitespace in-between, sure :)
11:32:08  <Alberth> *letters
11:33:25  <andythenorth> supermop: on bananas now
11:34:01  <andythenorth> hg != git :P
11:34:08  <andythenorth> that’s 5 mins of wtf I won’t get back
11:35:27  <andythenorth> hg add . is also highly undesirable :P
11:35:34  * andythenorth might have to switch to git
11:36:41  <V453000> so how do I apply a switch to those? can they be used as a callback somehow? 		cargo_allow_refit:			  []; 		cargo_disallow_refit:		  [YETI];
11:37:06  *** SHOTbyGUN [] has joined #openttd
11:37:14  <V453000> cause they arent included in callbacks on the tt-wiki
11:37:15  <V453000> :d
11:37:47  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: there is a refit callback
11:37:48  <andythenorth> do it with the refit cost cb
11:37:57  <andythenorth> it has an allow / disallow option
11:38:00  <V453000> O_O
11:38:05  <andythenorth> you’re breaking everyone’s orders though
11:38:08  <andythenorth> silently
11:38:11  <andythenorth> it’s a bad idea
11:38:35  * andythenorth isn’t just arguing for sake of arguing :P
11:38:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still recommending just the 2 wagon solution
11:38:53  <andythenorth> me too
11:39:09  <V453000> I will include that for sure in parameters
11:39:19  <V453000> just want to try and see how would one wagon work
11:40:08  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: product(1-alpha) seem right to me
11:42:31  <andythenorth> come on bundles :P
11:42:33  <andythenorth> faster
11:44:24  <Alberth> good products take time to cook :)
11:44:26  * andythenorth watches jenkins
11:45:16  <andythenorth> so slow
11:47:27  *** sla_ro|master [] has quit []
11:48:29  <Alberth> things are always slow when you watch them
11:49:22  <andythenorth> science fact
11:49:31  <andythenorth> supermop: you’d better upgrade :P
11:49:42  <andythenorth> also I just broke all savegames, but didn’t bump version
11:49:43  <andythenorth> oops
11:49:44  <andythenorth> nvm
11:55:23  <andythenorth> that tourists bug will also affect Road Hog
11:55:26  <andythenorth> and Squid :(
11:55:28  <andythenorth> bah
12:01:01  <planetmaker> 'tourists bug'?
12:01:15  <andythenorth> tourists set express cargo
12:01:20  <andythenorth> class / cargo /s
12:01:22  <andythenorth> it’s not a bug
12:01:27  <andythenorth> but it causes bugs in sets
12:01:35  <andythenorth> if that makes sense :P
12:02:13  *** Stimrol [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:03:21  <V453000> tourists are obviously oversized
12:04:12  <andythenorth> only on the way home
12:04:26  <supermop> why not silently remove tourists from game and chide player for attempting to transport them
12:04:51  <planetmaker> right, yes. So the 'bug' is that class 'express' usually is treated like that it's not a passenger?
12:05:19  <planetmaker> one could argue that tourists being class 'express' is a bug, too :)
12:05:31  <planetmaker> depends. But doesn't matter as it is like it is
12:05:52  <planetmaker> treat it by cargo label and you're safe :)
12:06:05  <andythenorth> well now it’s a fact in the wild
12:06:11  <andythenorth> not hard to fix, just blearch
12:06:13  <planetmaker> using the properties which explicitly allow or disallow certain labels
12:06:18  <andythenorth> already done ;)
12:08:33  <V453000> nuts hax that all the time :P
12:10:37  <peter1138> We added the "explicity add/remove cargo carrying by label" property, didn't we?
12:10:51  <andythenorth> yup
12:10:55  <andythenorth> problem solved
12:10:59  <peter1138> Before that it was pretty impossible :p
12:11:01  <andythenorth> nothing to see here except griping
12:11:02  *** Stimrol [] has joined #openttd
12:11:03  <V453000> yez
12:11:21  <andythenorth> anyway, should buy menu show the cargo decay rate thing?
12:11:24  <andythenorth> for vehicules
12:11:51  <peter1138> Qubicles?
12:12:07  <andythenorth> maybe
12:13:18  <planetmaker> andythenorth, how do you want to show it?
12:13:26  <andythenorth> good question
12:13:33  <andythenorth> what does the number mean, to player?
12:13:37  <planetmaker> nothing
12:13:39  <andythenorth> same for loading speed I guess
12:13:42  <planetmaker> yup
12:13:48  <planetmaker> just put it into nice words
12:13:58  <andythenorth> not possible
12:14:09  <planetmaker> and don't make it too complicated (i.e. vary by cargo and time and mood ;) )
12:14:22  <andythenorth> my compile doesn’t allow extra buy menu text
12:14:31  <planetmaker> fast / slow / normal ?
12:14:36  <planetmaker> ach, you and your compile not possible
12:14:52  <V453000> NICE WORDS XD
12:14:58  <V453000> loading speed does make sense though I think
12:15:37  <andythenorth> extra buy menu text is a sign of weak design imho
12:15:37  <planetmaker> you fixed your compile process up to the point that it now inhibits you making nice stuff, andythenorth :)
12:15:48  <Alberth> not really, amount of cargo / speed does
12:16:03  <Alberth> ie full loading time
12:16:08  <andythenorth> I’ve gone right off extra text, I think it’s used to gloss over terrible ideas
12:16:11  <andythenorth> and make them sound nice
12:16:46  <planetmaker> loading speed and cargo decay are viable differentiations between vehicles. Adding that info imho does not constitute bad feature nor terrible ideas
12:16:49  <andythenorth> I’d bin the text in FIRS if I could only think how
12:16:50  <Alberth> it can be used for that, yeah
12:17:14  <andythenorth> if those properties are valid to show to player, then ottd should do it
12:17:15  <V453000> XD
12:17:27  <V453000> andy I think you are going too far with removing things
12:17:33  <V453000> no offense
12:18:01  <planetmaker> andythenorth, but then openttd would have to decide about the meaning of normal speed
12:18:04  <planetmaker> which cannot really be done
12:18:36  <planetmaker> at least not sensibly. Because then immediately another person comes and goes like my normal speed is a different value
12:18:46  <andythenorth> V453000: you only have one wagon, and you’re breaking orders, so pot, kettle, eh? :D
12:18:46  <planetmaker> (speed as in loading speed or cargo decay speed)
12:19:04  <argoneus> my normal speed > your normal speed
12:19:06  <V453000> XD
12:19:08  <planetmaker> yes, you're equally bad. Just different ;)
12:19:11  <andythenorth> there already are normalised values for those props
12:19:14  <V453000> that is different :D
12:19:17  <andythenorth> they’re well established
12:19:55  <planetmaker> andythenorth, are they? Of course there are defaults for the default vehicles. But...
12:20:09  <planetmaker> anyhow, it's a weak argument of yours :)
12:20:12  <andythenorth> well yes
12:20:23  <andythenorth> so we just leave them out of buy menu and be done with it
12:20:26  <andythenorth> agreed
12:20:51  <V453000> XD
12:20:53  <planetmaker> lol
12:20:55  <V453000> awesome
12:21:56  <andythenorth> no patch required
12:24:22  <NGC3982> Good friday.
12:28:22  <Eddi|zuHause> good friday was half a year ago
12:30:03  <NGC3982> I wonder why the English language does not use that more often.
12:30:31  <planetmaker> obviously it was only moderately good to crucify s/o
12:32:38  <andythenorth> forest objects \o/
12:32:42  <andythenorth> nice newgrf :)
12:35:38  <__ln__> can we please start using the words 'overmorrow' and 'ereysterday'?
12:35:56  <planetmaker> you mean to re-start using them?
12:36:10  <__ln__> that's right
12:37:00  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "ÃŒbermorgen" and "vorgestern" are perfectly well established german words...
12:37:44  <Alberth> as are "overmorgen" en "eergisteren" in Dutch
12:37:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and i always struggle with translating them
12:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, english people don't look more than one day ahead or one day in the past
12:39:41  <__ln__> more or less all[*] languages except modern english have such words.
12:39:42  <b_jonas_> Eddi|zuHause: or they use phrases like "Monday week"
12:40:51  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas_: wtf is that supposed to mean?
12:41:08  <andythenorth> a week from the next Monday of course
12:41:10  <andythenorth> English :P
12:41:15  <andythenorth> they’re their there
12:43:10  <Eddi|zuHause> why not just say "next monday" [as opposed to "this monday"], like normal people?
12:43:30  <b_jonas_> a moment, I'm searching for the link explaining this
12:43:37  <b_jonas_> it's apparently regional
12:43:39  *** b_jonas_ is now known as b_jonas
12:44:43  <andythenorth> no no
12:45:05  <andythenorth> next monday is easily conflated
12:46:49  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
12:46:52  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
12:46:58  <b_jonas> Monday week discussion =>
12:53:01  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:53:22  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: similar words exist in Japanese as well
12:53:35  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
12:58:40  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
12:59:39  *** slonik [] has joined #openttd
13:04:54  <supermop> good night
13:05:08  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:05:25  <planetmaker> g'night Suicyder
13:05:29  <planetmaker> ups... supermop :)
13:06:11  *** KWKdesign [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:08:29  <Alberth>    planetmaker: ground tile of the opengfx+landscape tower seems not properly updated, is this newgrf related?
13:09:21  <Alberth> bottom tower was just placed, the white cursor stays visible, the back tower was placed, and moved out and back into the main display
13:09:51  <planetmaker> might well be, yes. I recall there's some issue, though I didn't recall there being an issue with normal ground tiles
13:09:58  <planetmaker> just with steep slopes
13:10:02  <Alberth> bounding box seems a bit low
13:10:32  <Alberth> but then you'd expect glitches in the top part
13:11:22  <planetmaker> the ground definitely has nothing to do with bounding box
13:11:38  <planetmaker> rather seems like it adds a transparent ground sprite (or none)
13:12:46  *** yorick_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:12:58  *** supermop [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:13:07  <Alberth>
13:13:25  <planetmaker> he :P Ugly
13:13:33  <planetmaker> or rather buggy
13:13:50  <Alberth> I'll make a few issues at the landscape project
13:15:54  <Alberth> ha, #6695  didn't make its target version :p
13:18:26  <Alberth> Oh, it already exists as feature #2311
13:20:06  <planetmaker> seems so :)
13:20:12  *** yorick [] has joined #openttd
13:20:58  <planetmaker> he, Alberth did forget to open one irc window :P
13:21:18  <Alberth> only one?
13:21:23  <Alberth> three, I think :p
13:21:28  <planetmaker> :)
13:21:39  <planetmaker> I assume several channels per window
13:21:49  <Alberth> yep :)
13:23:27  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
14:00:02  <andythenorth> what does it mean?
14:00:08  <andythenorth> I get these tickets sometimes
14:00:09  <Sacro> PBIMTTD?
14:01:25  <Alberth> andythenorth: stable isn't updated with new translations?
14:02:03  <andythenorth> I guess I have to release
14:02:10  <andythenorth> wondering if it’s 1.0
14:02:17  <andythenorth> anyone using Termite?  Is it 1.0?
14:02:49  <Alberth> I'll have to fix a few compile errors before I can look
14:03:11  <andythenorth> only German changed since 0.3
14:03:22  *** berndj [] has joined #openttd
14:03:28  <Alberth> silversurfer  does spanish iirc
14:04:30  <Alberth> he does indeed
14:04:35  <andythenorth> ok
14:04:41  <andythenorth> 0.2 release covered that ticket then
14:05:07  <andythenorth> automated translation releases :P
14:05:29  <Alberth> bananas has 0.3 it seems
14:05:33  <andythenorth> yup
14:06:04  <andythenorth> planetmaker: snow CHIPS? o_O
14:06:04  <Alberth> there are more newgrfs with that problem I think
14:06:23  <Alberth> santa claus waiting at the station for goods!
14:07:42  <andythenorth> so
14:07:43  <planetmaker> snow chips, indeed
14:07:57  <andythenorth> I probably have most of the sprites in FIRS already
14:08:00  <andythenorth> ...
14:08:25  <planetmaker> and those tickets mean that the translator is displeased with the release cycle and wants to see his translations released on bananas :)
14:08:32  <planetmaker> had them, too :P
14:09:13  <andythenorth> bananas should fetch nightlies :P
14:09:16  <andythenorth> maybe not
14:10:25  <andythenorth> planetmaker: how confident are you that you can code the snow? o_O I could start updating sprites...
14:10:36  <Alberth> it should have a project page "make changeset F00  release 1.2.3"
14:10:58  <Alberth> it == devzone
14:12:52  *** berndj [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:14:37  <planetmaker> andythenorth, in principle it's not difficult to make devzone upload nightly or weekly builds to bananas
14:14:54  <planetmaker> all tools are there, basically. It just needs some small changes
14:15:00  <andythenorth> we don’t have any way of marking them as ‘non-released'
14:15:07  <andythenorth> or unstable
14:15:21  <planetmaker> well. The version displayed might.
14:15:26  <planetmaker> FIRS 1.3.0
14:15:36  <planetmaker> FIRS v5493 (nightly)
14:15:49  <planetmaker> or whatever. The (nightly) part currently is not there, but meh
14:16:18  <planetmaker> as with respect to snow on CHIPS: I didn't yet find time to actually try. But I still believe it's doable
14:16:37  *** mordant [] has joined #openttd
14:16:39  <planetmaker> though tbh, I'm still scared of nfo :P
14:16:42  <andythenorth> he
14:16:43  <andythenorth> maybe I do ‘early trains’ for Iron Horse
14:16:51  <andythenorth> and then maglev
14:17:00  <planetmaker> but I still want to do it. So...
14:17:00  <andythenorth> should the early + maglev be configurable to ‘off’?
14:17:07  <andythenorth> they wil be same for all rosters
14:17:08  <planetmaker> no, why?
14:17:11  *** liq3 [] has quit []
14:17:27  <andythenorth> 1 horse, 1 steam engine, 1 pax maglev, 1 freight maglev
14:17:28  <planetmaker> don't play early: no early ones there. Don't use maglev: no problem
14:17:39  <andythenorth> I use ‘vehicles never expire’ :D
14:17:56  <andythenorth> oh we have that hide thing now
14:17:57  <andythenorth> neat
14:17:59  <planetmaker> rather than that parameter add purchase list texts :P
14:18:22  <andythenorth> I disagree with purchase texts
14:18:28  <andythenorth> you disagree with my parameter
14:18:33  <andythenorth> we’re even :P
14:19:06  <andythenorth> V453000 is quite wrong though
14:19:39  <planetmaker> agreed :P
14:22:58  <andythenorth>
14:36:43  *** Flygon_ [] has joined #openttd
14:43:36  *** Flygon__ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:53:16  <horazont> hmm
14:57:37  <Alberth> interesting
15:00:20  <andythenorth> so Iron Horse etc have a concept of ‘packaged goods’ which are fast
15:00:27  <andythenorth> so only packaged goods on freight maglev?
15:00:29  <andythenorth> or coal also :P
15:00:58  <Alberth> packaged goods could be nice
15:01:24  <Alberth> the problem with not allowing some cargo is that you cannot mix trains on the network easily
15:01:44  <Alberth> but you can see that as a good thing I guess
15:01:54  <Alberth> as mass-update to maglev won't work :p
15:02:46  <andythenorth> capsule pipelines
15:02:58  <andythenorth> I see no reason to ban coal etc
15:03:12  <andythenorth> it just gets very boring
15:03:24  <andythenorth> because I’m only providing limited vehicles
15:03:50  * andythenorth absolutely needs to do a pipelines grf :P
15:04:50  <Alberth> I am still looking for a way to build a multi-cargo transport backbone
15:05:08  <Alberth> I should probably do something with refitting
15:05:17  <andythenorth> ?
15:06:05  <Alberth> serving industries around the country, ie transport everything it needs and produces
15:06:10  <Alberth> for all industry kinds
15:06:46  <Alberth> gets extremely messy when you have more than a few different cargoes
15:07:08  <andythenorth> you lack appropriate vehicles, or appropriate orders? o_O
15:07:21  <Alberth> vehicles, atm
15:07:46  <andythenorth> IH open wagons refit everything
15:08:05  <Alberth> should try that one then
15:08:26  <andythenorth> except mail
15:08:32  <andythenorth> IH box vans appear to refit everything
15:08:36  <andythenorth> except pax
15:08:42  <Alberth> I can live without pax/mail :)
15:09:47  <andythenorth> ok, it’s the open cars that refit everything except pax/mail
15:09:50  <andythenorth> box car more limited
15:09:59  <andythenorth> 2 generations, fastes one is 85mph
15:10:46  <andythenorth> biab
15:10:54  <Alberth> bye bye
15:15:32  <planetmaker> bye
15:15:43  <planetmaker> and come back with snowy sprites ;)
15:26:00  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
15:29:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that's only a tiny step before "and don't bother coming back without..."
15:34:06  <planetmaker> he, lol :) no, that's far from how I meant it
15:37:34  *** pxr [] has joined #openttd
15:43:08  <Alberth> perhaps code a simple station builder for NFO in python?
15:43:34  <Alberth> should be relatively easy to raise the abstraction level, and flexible enough to change as you want
15:45:02  <Eddi|zuHause> a code generator! what a novel idea!
15:45:51  <Alberth> that would imply you know what your higher level language primitives are :p
15:52:19  <planetmaker> Alberth, that implies I know how the nfo works. In order to get a fundamental grasp I agreed to try add some snow sprites :)
15:52:49  <Alberth> fair enough :)
15:57:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but if there's a hole in the bucket...
15:58:12  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
16:01:16  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you had somewhere a snowy version for something in chips. can you link me to it again, please?
16:01:48  <andythenorth>
16:02:06  <andythenorth> will require handling the cargo states, so it’s probably one of the more complex cases
16:02:18  <andythenorth> the other complex case is randomisation of buildings / vehicles on a tile
16:02:25  <peter1138> µµ
16:02:26  <andythenorth> but both should just be a single varaction 2
16:02:32  <andythenorth> in the graphics chain
16:02:46  <planetmaker> ok, so that's not yet coded that png?
16:02:51  <andythenorth> nope :)
16:02:52  <andythenorth> old FIRS used to have nfo snow support, how hard can it be for stations? :x
16:03:17  <planetmaker> not much more difficult. but stations being stations being stations being nfo :P
16:03:47  <planetmaker> and had I pulled I would have seen that commit with it :)
16:10:24  *** ginko [] has joined #openttd
16:19:01  <peter1138> Stations, woo!
16:23:41  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:24:42  <andythenorth> hmm
16:24:44  <andythenorth> maglev
16:24:48  <peter1138> Boring!
16:24:52  <andythenorth> or tubes
16:25:09  <andythenorth> capsule pipelines
16:28:23  *** TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
16:29:20  *** Defaultti [] has quit [Quit: Quitting.]
16:30:17  <andythenorth> so what’s boring about maglev then peter1138 ?
16:30:19  <andythenorth> specifically
16:30:23  <andythenorth> or generally
16:31:34  <peter1138> Trying to figure out which track bits are placed is boring.
16:34:15  <andythenorth> oh yeah
16:34:17  <andythenorth> I remember that
16:34:19  <andythenorth> sucks
16:34:26  <andythenorth> and maglev is ugly also
16:35:28  <peter1138> Maybe I'll make a test-GRF one day, for the GRF-provides-all-track-combinations patch.
16:36:19  <andythenorth> ?
16:36:28  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
16:36:33  <peter1138> The patch that pikka wanted.
16:36:35  *** Defaultti [] has joined #openttd
16:36:56  <andythenorth> what does it do o_O
16:40:07  <andythenorth> really :o
16:40:13  <andythenorth> yet another fucking cost thread?
16:40:20  <andythenorth> cost / payment /s
16:40:24  <andythenorth> days after the last one
16:41:41  <peter1138> Er, it... lets the GRF provide all track combinations... er...
16:41:56  <peter1138> Instead of combining different pieces for junctions.
16:46:50  <andythenorth> oh that yeah
16:46:54  <andythenorth> so no more janky crossings
16:47:09  <peter1138> I suspect it would be useful for 4x tiles.
16:47:41  <peter1138> There's still the problem that | and - track is distorted.
16:48:41  *** TomyLobo [] has joined #openttd
16:54:34  *** JacobD88 [] has joined #openttd
16:54:56  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:55:21  *** JacobD88 [] has quit []
16:58:10  <andythenorth> there’s also the problem that / and \ views in Squid are longer than the – views
16:58:10  <andythenorth> :P
16:58:15  <andythenorth> problems everywhere
16:58:34  <planetmaker> nfo is meh. Did I say so already?
17:04:49  <andythenorth> that happens
17:04:56  <Eddi|zuHause> turn it into m4nfo :)
17:25:37  *** slonik [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:25:48  *** slonik [] has joined #openttd
17:29:56  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
17:40:37  *** glx [] has joined #openttd
17:40:40  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
17:43:54  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
17:45:23  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27065 trunk/src/lang/danish.txt (2014-11-21 17:45:16 UTC)
17:45:24  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:25  <DorpsGek> danish - 18 changes by manframe
17:45:29  <andythenorth> hmm
17:45:37  <andythenorth> pipelines are a faff to signal
17:45:41  <andythenorth> and take a lot of space
17:45:45  <andythenorth> they’d be better as trams
17:46:00  <andythenorth> or we could go mad, and add a new transport type :o
17:46:04  <andythenorth> imagine
17:47:57  <Eddi|zuHause> hmm... my mouse battery is emtpy. but if i get up now to replace it, the cat will demand food
17:49:41  <andythenorth> so give it food? :)
17:49:46  <andythenorth> that’s how it works with children
17:49:54  <andythenorth> except when it’s the wrong time
17:50:18  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
17:50:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i always said it'd be better as roadtype
17:51:42  <Eddi|zuHause> but there's nothing really speaking against a new transport type for pipes/cablecars/skilifts etc.
17:52:46  <Eddi|zuHause> ... rollercoasters :p
17:54:13  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:54:30  <planetmaker> from rollercoaster import *
17:54:58  <andythenorth> apart from coding it...
17:55:02  <andythenorth> but the game is kind of done
17:55:05  <andythenorth> so what next eh?
17:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like in faust, as soon as you say "this is finished, it should stay this way", the devil will come and claim his part of the deal
17:56:27  <andythenorth> I didn’t know that was from faust :)
17:56:32  <andythenorth> but the sentiment is good
17:56:38  *** kais58_ [] has joined #openttd
17:56:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well you probably didn't read faust in school :p
17:58:30  *** kais58 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:58:43  *** Marshy [~oftc-webi@] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
18:00:28  *** trendynick [~trendynic@] has joined #openttd
18:01:54  *** itsatacoshop247_ [] has joined #openttd
18:02:07  *** Pereba_ [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
18:03:05  <andythenorth> not so much
18:03:37  <andythenorth> so bi-directional transport on a single tile
18:03:43  <andythenorth> discrete packets
18:03:49  <andythenorth> are junctions allowed?
18:05:03  *** Tirili [] has joined #openttd
18:08:51  *** ginko [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:08:54  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:08:57  *** Pereba_ is now known as Pereba
18:11:15  *** Quatroking [] has joined #openttd
18:11:24  *** ginko [] has joined #openttd
18:19:42  <Eddi|zuHause> no
18:20:06  <Eddi|zuHause> junctions can only be at "pumping" stations
18:21:03  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
18:22:26  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
18:22:43  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how much follows from what we already have?
18:22:49  <andythenorth> we keep orders etc?
18:22:56  <andythenorth> pumping stations ~= waypoints?
18:23:45  <Eddi|zuHause> pumping stations are more like depots, they create and disband vehicles
18:24:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but they also load cargo onto those vehicles
18:29:06  <andythenorth> and do we have stations?
18:29:14  <andythenorth> separately?
18:29:21  * andythenorth assumes not
18:29:21  <Eddi|zuHause> no
18:30:13  <Eddi|zuHause> but this creates a gui problem
18:31:01  *** Jomann [] has joined #openttd
18:32:50  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, once you connected two pumping stations, they act sort of like a train, one side issues a "wagon" depending on how far along the consist you are, and the other side consumes it or sends it back
18:33:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the number of vehicles in the consist defines how often the pumping station pumps and how fast it goes
18:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> up to a capacity
18:34:20  <argoneus> ayy
18:34:22  <andythenorth> so this would need designed + build from ground up, rather than a hack on trains?
18:34:40  <Alberth> just use pumpstations at every tile?
18:35:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: offers no advantage
18:35:42  <Alberth> more capacity, since travel time of the vehicle is shorter
18:35:44  *** JacobD88 [] has joined #openttd
18:36:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: if they act like a depot, the vehicle must travel through the entire pumping station tile
18:36:34  *** MTs-iPad [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:37:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: in any case, it's no different than station walking/teleporting
18:37:50  <Eddi|zuHause> plus maintenance costs will go through the roof
18:37:55  <Alberth> :)
18:39:28  <andythenorth> so it shouldn’t be too easy to do ultimate transport type...
18:39:42  <andythenorth> with current PIPE grf, it has two limitations
18:39:54  <andythenorth> it has crappy signal sprites, which are hard to see (bad limitation)
18:40:08  <andythenorth> it takes a ful tile for one direction (neither good nor bad limitation)
18:40:12  <andythenorth> full *
18:40:23  <andythenorth> so routing pipelines takes thought
18:40:25  <Eddi|zuHause> current PIPE grf has it completely wrong. pipes are not fast
18:40:33  <andythenorth> but the signal faff is just yak-shaving
18:40:44  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wrong against reality, but works in game
18:40:53  <andythenorth> implementation is ugh, result is ok
18:41:26  <Eddi|zuHause> pipe "vehicles" have no speed, they move forward every time the pumping station issues a new vehicle
18:42:25  <Eddi|zuHause> which may depend on loading speed
18:43:11  <Eddi|zuHause> this will make things terrible for low throughput links
18:44:16  <andythenorth> ha yes
18:47:22  <andythenorth> what’s the movement like?
18:47:46  *** Hazzard [~Hazzard@] has joined #openttd
18:48:17  *** JacobD88 [] has quit [Quit: JacobD88]
18:50:53  <Eddi|zuHause> same as train wagons, only that the engine is not at the beginning
18:51:00  <andythenorth> are vehicles represented?
18:51:02  * andythenorth assumes so
18:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, cablecars etc. would need representing
18:51:30  <andythenorth> one direction per tile, or bi-directional?
18:51:42  <Eddi|zuHause> newgrf can choose to make transparent sprites
18:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> bi-directional
18:52:23  * andythenorth trying to work out if a vertical offset is possible
18:53:09  <Eddi|zuHause> same way as elevated trams/subways, or flexible bridges
18:53:24  <andythenorth> elevated trams are crap
18:53:29  <andythenorth> they hit catenary
18:53:33  <andythenorth> they hit bridges
18:53:36  <andythenorth> they hit tunnels
18:53:55  <Eddi|zuHause> cable cars or power lines could kinda use elevation
18:54:00  <andythenorth> yup
18:54:25  <andythenorth> it ought to be a full height level, baked in, not a hack by pushing sprites upwards
18:54:38  <andythenorth> dunno if that’s possible though
18:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it needs implementing
18:55:23  <andythenorth> any restrictions on crossing other transport types?
18:55:37  <Eddi|zuHause> what speaks against underground/elevated tram is the connector pieces with normal tram
18:55:42  <andythenorth> also is there a bridge concept?  Can it cross own route orthogonally
18:55:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not on same level
18:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> bridge would be a replacement for an elevation concept
18:56:19  <andythenorth> needs a spec :)
18:56:30  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have elevation, you don't need bridges
18:56:34  <andythenorth> yup
18:56:42  <andythenorth> if  you have elevation, tunnels are game-over?
18:57:09  <Eddi|zuHause> tunnel=negative elevation
18:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> or, to start a tunnel, elevation must first be lowered to 0
18:59:55  <andythenorth> we could also have elevation -1?
19:00:10  <andythenorth> :P
19:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe
19:00:57  <Eddi|zuHause> save for a real underground mode, it's the only useful way to get subways
19:01:20  <andythenorth> how would the tile above show the underground route?
19:01:28  <andythenorth> not doing that would suck for various reasons
19:02:20  <Eddi|zuHause> for subways, maybe cut out sections of the road, so it shines through (like transparency)
19:03:50  <Alberth> we'll add a "transparent tile" tool, like dynamite, but it makes the land transparent :p
19:19:26  <andythenorth> so is it done yet? o_O
19:27:46  *** dasy2k1 [] has joined #openttd
19:28:51  <dasy2k1> hi all looking in the source code at the moment to find which file controls the settings gui. the obvious choice of settings_gui.cpp turned out to be the file for the game options gui
19:29:24  *** oskari892 [] has joined #openttd
19:30:01  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
19:30:53  <dasy2k1> trawled through all the other likley contenders but no luck there either
19:31:12  <Eddi|zuHause> settings_gui is for the display, table/settings.ini is for what settings there are
19:31:13  <Alberth> what settings?
19:31:26  <Alberth> quak
19:32:16  <andythenorth> quak quak
19:32:17  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe look at revisions that add a setting to get more feeling for it
19:32:50  <frosch123> hola
19:32:57  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what is this new transport type called?
19:33:06  <dasy2k1> possibly. the settings window im after is what used to be called the advanced settings
19:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise, give more details about what you're trying to do
19:34:24  <dasy2k1> I want to see how the expantion of groups with +- buttons is done with the view to making the vehicle groups gui collapsable with nested groups
19:35:54  <Eddi|zuHause> oh. maybe try widget/tree_widget.h
19:35:58  *** JacobD88 [] has joined #openttd
19:36:37  *** oskari89 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:37:15  <Alberth> dasy2k1:  SettingsPage  and SettingsContainer  have fold/unfold
19:37:43  <dasy2k1> hmm Eddi|zuHause looks like tree_widget is for trees that grow not trees of lists
19:38:47  <Eddi|zuHause> possible. i try to stay away from gui as far as possible :p
19:39:19  <Alberth> clicking the close button is an adventure :)
19:40:36  <dasy2k1> sorry Alberth  where are SettingsPage and SettingsContainer located?
19:41:33  <Alberth> SettingEntry  <-- sorry, that's the basic elementI think, settings_gui.cpp line 745
19:41:48  <Alberth> SettingsPage is below it
19:42:05  <Alberth> line 805
19:43:26  <Alberth> but I can see the use of a template if you want to copy the code
19:44:10  <Alberth> or pehaps a base class
19:44:14  <dasy2k1> ahh ok (i admit that this is my first foray into the code itself, all i have done before is tweak newgrf code around)
19:44:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i meant gui code, not using gui :p
19:45:09  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause:  :D
19:46:24  <Alberth> dasy2k1: you may want to have a look at a previous version first, before the filters were added
19:47:15  <dasy2k1> hmm looking at the way it works is might be better to use the folding from the cargo waiting display in a station rather than from settings
19:48:13  <dasy2k1> Alberth:  can you suggest a version?
19:51:06  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
19:51:27  <Wolf01> hi
19:51:37  <dasy2k1> hi Wolf01
19:51:57  <Alberth> r24329 or r24411  or so
19:51:59  <Alberth> hi hi
19:53:21  *** JacobD88 [] has quit [Quit: JacobD88]
19:54:44  *** Tirili [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [SeaMonkey 2.30/20141101183419]]
19:56:06  <frosch123> meh, so much spam today
19:56:32  <Wolf01> bah, too many brand new pieces on the last lego set... I can't rebuild it on LDD
19:56:52  <frosch123> V453000: whatever, the allow_attach callback is evaluated by autoreplace. it would be terrible if a vehicle set would allow autoreplace to make a train crappy
20:02:41  <dasy2k1> hmm the bit i was looking to reuse is not there that far back... looks to me at the moment that the code that could be reused somewhat is in station_gui.cpp at around like 1300
20:04:10  <andythenorth> does NUTS allow station refit?
20:04:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, cargodist was added later than the settings filters
20:05:38  * andythenorth ponders
20:05:43  <andythenorth> so maglev, or not?
20:05:45  <andythenorth> in Iron Horse
20:05:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't find settings_gui without filters and station_gui with tree view in the same revision
20:05:54  <andythenorth> currently nothing new after year 2000
20:05:57  <andythenorth> which doesn’t bother me
20:06:04  <andythenorth> because I’m playing 1900-2000
20:06:11  <andythenorth> but eh
20:06:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: point people to other maglev sets
20:06:48  <andythenorth> I’d kind of like to do a nice treatment of futuristic trains
20:06:50  <andythenorth> just a few
20:06:57  <Eddi|zuHause> or make a "iron maglev" set
20:07:38  <Eddi|zuHause> range 2000-2100, similar vehicle development
20:07:56  *** JGR_ [] has joined #openttd
20:08:18  *** JGR [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:08:29  <andythenorth> possible
20:08:36  <andythenorth> dunno if I have enough motivation though
20:09:08  <Eddi|zuHause> or do something crazy: make a monorail set :p
20:09:21  <andythenorth> dan wants to do that
20:09:24  <andythenorth> but not futuristic
20:09:25  <andythenorth> retro
20:09:34  <dasy2k1> thanks everyone , real life calls at the moment but i may be back later
20:10:26  <Eddi|zuHause> my brain always wants to parse your name as "das" "y2k" and has a leftover "1"
20:11:24  *** Hazzard [~Hazzard@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:56  *** Hazzard [~Hazzard@] has joined #openttd
20:18:54  <Wolf01> :o
20:19:10  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
20:20:43  <dasy2k1> Eddi|zuHause: yeh you want to prounce it more or lest correctly then, its das y2k1 not daisy2k1
20:24:25  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
20:28:59  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
20:29:37  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
20:34:58  *** Hazzard [~Hazzard@] has quit [Quit: Goodbye.]
20:36:15  *** oskari892 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:39:21  *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd []
20:43:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so name for this transport type?
20:43:42  <andythenorth> Packets?
20:43:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not in the naming business
20:46:09  <andythenorth> well what is it, conceptually?
20:47:45  <Eddi|zuHause> something that covers pipes, conveyor belts, cable cars, power lines, ...
20:49:32  <andythenorth> point to point
20:50:16  <andythenorth> dunno
20:54:59  <frosch123> sounds like factorio
20:56:46  <andythenorth> might just be ‘conveyor'
20:58:50  <argoneus> why is postapocalyptic used when referring to a nuked world?
20:58:58  <argoneus> I thought apocalypse was end of the world due to some prophecy
20:59:53  <frosch123> yes, but apocalypsis does not mean supernove
20:59:59  <frosch123> thus there must be some other reason
21:00:49  <argoneus> on a related note
21:00:52  <argoneus> nukes are scary things ._.
21:00:53  <frosch123> so there are various types of apocalypsis novels: zombies, viruses, comets, nukes, stupidity, ...
21:01:00  <argoneus> to think that there are countries in the world today
21:01:08  <argoneus> who could singlehandedly destroy all life in a matter of hours
21:01:31  <frosch123> you are too young
21:01:46  <argoneus> was this a real threat during the cold war?
21:02:01  <argoneus> I thought the cold war was mostly an economical conflict
21:02:18  <frosch123> in cold war cccr had way more nucear weapons than us afaik
21:02:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the greek-derived word "apokalypsis" means "reveal"
21:02:32  <frosch123> us was confident with having enough weapons to destroy earth
21:02:33  <argoneus> (also please stop me before it gets "political" again, I do not seek a ban)
21:02:43  <frosch123> while cccr had enough to destroy it like 500 times
21:02:52  <argoneus> oh
21:02:53  <argoneus> than US, not us
21:03:04  <argoneus> soviet engineering :D
21:03:06  <frosch123> yeah, sorry :)
21:03:32  <Eddi|zuHause> in christian belief systems, "apokalypsis" means the end of the world as we know it
21:03:35  <frosch123> anyway, it proves the point that it does not matter whether you have enough to destroy earth
21:03:40  <frosch123> you just need bigger numbers than the others
21:03:56  <argoneus> so the reason why there hasn't been an open nuclear war
21:04:02  <Eddi|zuHause> in science fiction literature, it is usually derived as "some cataclysmic event that destroys most of civilization"
21:04:04  <argoneus> is among others the fact that countries don't know how many nukes another country has?
21:04:09  <argoneus> and doesn't want to suicide?
21:04:24  <frosch123> no, the reason that there is no war is that there is no point in war
21:04:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the cataclysm is usually man-made, but not always
21:04:32  <argoneus> well
21:04:35  <argoneus> there was never point in war
21:04:40  <argoneus> but people are greedy by nature
21:04:52  <frosch123> there were many reasons for war before ww1
21:04:52  <argoneus> most huge wars didn't start by "we declare world war"
21:04:54  <Eddi|zuHause> there have been lots of points in war
21:04:56  <argoneus> they started by small petty conflicts
21:05:14  <Eddi|zuHause> war has been the primary driver of technological development
21:05:21  <argoneus> see: assassination of a guy, a shootout on polish borders
21:05:24  <frosch123> only ww1 and ww2 pointed out that there is no gain in fighting anyone who is not dramatically weaker
21:05:41  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: that's how they started, not why they were started
21:05:52  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: oh, as in
21:05:55  <argoneus> these two were the last drop?
21:06:27  <frosch123> yes, because they both ended with noone really winning
21:06:47  <frosch123> but everyone being a lot weaker than before
21:06:54  <Eddi|zuHause> besides, there was a whole month between "a guy being assassinated" and actual war starting
21:07:34  <argoneus> I don't know why, but I find WW1 to be worse than WW2
21:07:36  <argoneus> it just felt... darker...
21:07:41  <frosch123> except maybe US, who likely came out stronger out of ww2
21:07:50  <argoneus> presumably even chemical weapons were used and new things were being tested
21:07:57  <argoneus> it's creepy in a way
21:08:29  <dasy2k1> and when will historians agree on the start date for ww3, we are not quite there yet but if current trends continue i can see kids in 2150 learning that the chain of events that led to ww3 starting started in 2001 with it becomming a world war by around 2020
21:08:29  <frosch123> yes, ww1 is somewhat weird because of the silly things it was started for
21:08:33  <Eddi|zuHause> WW1 is probably "worst" in the case of "senseless dying with no motion in any direction"
21:08:49  <frosch123> ww2 otoh was started for reasons still popular in today's fiction
21:08:52  <argoneus> oh Eddi|zuHause
21:08:54  <argoneus> I read somewhere
21:09:00  <Eddi|zuHause> WW2 however "wins" in terms of atrocities committed
21:09:01  <argoneus> that the troops in the trenches got together and drank tea
21:09:31  <frosch123> i doubt that
21:09:32  <argoneus> that no one really wanted to fight
21:09:37  <frosch123> if at all, they drank alcohol
21:10:05  <frosch123> but yes, there are stories about shared christmas parties of local groups
21:10:14  <Eddi|zuHause> there are studies that a large part of soldiers never actually fired their guns
21:10:53  <Eddi|zuHause> this applies to most wars, actually
21:11:23  <argoneus> I'd imagine the common 18 year old doesn't know why he should shoot other 18 yo's
21:11:28  <dasy2k1> it wasn’t the universal Christmas truce that people talk about now but there were small areas where there was a cease in hostiliies for the day, mainly used to bury the dead
21:11:59  *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@] has joined #openttd
21:12:07  <frosch123> argoneus: you are underestimating the effects of social expectations
21:12:39  <frosch123> 99% of humans do what the nearby humans expect them to do
21:12:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the US spent a lot of time post-WW2 and post-Vietnam training soldiers to actually shoot
21:12:46  <andythenorth> dunno how that goes
21:12:52  <dasy2k1> the main motivation was shoot them or be shot by your own officer for disobeying orders/cowadace
21:13:07  <argoneus> was it same for the officer?
21:13:12  <argoneus> or was the officer brainwashed with ideals
21:13:32  <andythenorth> frosch123: the disparity between USSR and USA wasn’t that great
21:13:38  <andythenorth> depending on what year you choose ....
21:14:27  <dasy2k1> argoneus: pretty much but the officer would be removed from duty, court martialed totally discraced and then exicuted
21:14:37  <andythenorth> the russians also have that doomsday device, which allegedly the USA don’t
21:14:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: ok, i thought the west was actually really weak in repect to numbers
21:14:50  <andythenorth> nah
21:15:00  <andythenorth> the USA had a huge stockpile
21:15:16  <andythenorth> playing catch up is thought to be one reason for USSR collapse
21:15:32  <dasy2k1> aaui the ussr had more numbers of nukes but the usa had more powerful nukes
21:15:57  <andythenorth> you can see (for example) why in 1968 Soviets might feel a huge threat from USA
21:16:15  <andythenorth> and more so if you use the polar projection map that Soviet leaders are alleged to use
21:16:18  *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:16:36  <andythenorth> which shows USSR encircled by nuclear-armed enemies who can lob missiles into russia easily
21:16:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the race between USSR and USA was never fair to begin with, because the USA were not scarred by war
21:17:13  <argoneus> talking about that
21:17:21  <argoneus> is it just me, or were the japanese even more inhumane than the germans?
21:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause> depends
21:17:35  <argoneus> I read an article about two japanese officers making a bet who can kill more (japanese?) civilians in one day with a sword
21:17:41  <argoneus> that's fucked up...
21:17:48  <frosch123> argoneus: chinese, not japanese
21:17:52  <argoneus> oh, chinese
21:17:58  <Eddi|zuHause> japanese atrocities were mainly targeted at the chinese
21:17:59  <andythenorth>
21:18:09  <frosch123> argoneus: japan killed chinese the way germans killed jews and slavics
21:18:19  <argoneus> slavics?
21:18:22  <andythenorth> ^^^ Russia caught between NATO block and Chinese
21:18:25  <Eddi|zuHause> whereas german atrocities covered large parts of their own population that was not deemed "pure" enough
21:18:26  <frosch123> argoneus: google for rape of nanking or so
21:18:34  <argoneus> I thought they weren't targetting slavs
21:18:44  <argoneus> or rather, in the case of my country, they just occupied it
21:18:45  <argoneus> "just"
21:18:46  <frosch123> argoneus:
21:19:14  <andythenorth> tonight is history night :P
21:19:29  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: not slavs per se, but oppositionals, jews which lived in the area, homosexuals, gypsies, ...
21:20:12  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: and slavs were widely used as forced labour
21:20:23  <argoneus> okay, that's true
21:20:28  <argoneus> they used our people and factories to make tanks
21:20:39  <argoneus> and they stole the hulls of our tanks
21:20:41  <argoneus> and put their own guns on it
21:20:59  <frosch123> hmm, i always wondered about the correlation between slavs and slaves, is there any?
21:21:00  <Eddi|zuHause> pre-WWII, the tzech army was widely considered as highly technologically advanced
21:21:03  <argoneus> I guess they did everywhere though
21:21:12  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: yeah
21:21:13  <Eddi|zuHause> which was probably a major reason for occupation
21:21:20  <argoneus> from what I was taught
21:21:27  <argoneus> well, you know, our country is surrounded by mountains
21:21:34  <argoneus> and people say that germans couldn't break through on land
21:21:43  <argoneus> but the reason we gave up and let them occupy is, is that their airforce was superior
21:21:53  <argoneus> and if we tried to fight, prague would be a grassy plain right now
21:22:05  <argoneus> that's what they teach us at least
21:22:17  <argoneus> but apparently our weapons and tanks were on par, if not better, at the time
21:22:26  <Eddi|zuHause> they didn't teach this part really. it just was a small footnote
21:23:12  <frosch123> the usual brittish war movies tell about uk trying to catch on numbers of aircraft
21:23:14  <Eddi|zuHause> there was peaceful annexation of austria, german-inhabited areas of czechia, and then rest-czechia not-so-peaceful. and then the war started
21:23:43  <frosch123> which they did not succeed on production, but by fighting more efficient or so
21:24:13  <Eddi|zuHause> radar made a huge impact
21:24:50  <frosch123> hmm, right, there was this brittish appeacement thingie
21:25:01  *** Myhorta[1] [~Myhorta@2001:8a0:ed44:5b01:a113:fc02:c3c0:1dab] has joined #openttd
21:25:09  <andythenorth> frosch123: yes there is a correlation
21:25:15  <andythenorth> I found it last time this came up
21:25:47  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:25:47  *** Myhorta[1] [~Myhorta@2001:8a0:ed44:5b01:a113:fc02:c3c0:1dab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:25:50  <Eddi|zuHause> the last time i came across that, it was disputed
21:26:08  <frosch123> andythenorth: is it because for english speakers slaves usually came from the east?
21:26:09  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
21:26:24  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes, it was weakly evidenced
21:26:38  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: unlikely, as the name is probably older than the english language
21:26:42  <frosch123> i.e. like germany is called by the surrounding nations with the name of the germanic tribe living nearest to them or so
21:27:10  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the theory is that Slav -> slave
21:27:14  <andythenorth> rather than the reverse
21:27:15  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: latin is servus/serva, which sounds like slave
21:27:30  <andythenorth>
21:27:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but that does not quite explain the german word "Sklave"
21:28:03  <Eddi|zuHause> usually consonants disappear over time, rarely they appear
21:29:46  *** oskari892 [] has joined #openttd
21:33:37  <frosch123> [22:11] <argoneus> I'd imagine the common 18 year old doesn't know why he should shoot other 18 yo's <- btw. there are many cultures where dying for cultural/social/national reason is an honour
21:34:03  <frosch123> it's no modern-terrorism thing at all
21:34:23  <andythenorth> hmm
21:34:27  <andythenorth> maybe vactrains
21:34:34  <andythenorth> something futurisms anyway
21:34:38  <andythenorth> monorail smells
21:35:23  <frosch123> argoneus: <- japanese example from ww2
21:35:25  <andythenorth> or a maglev that doesn’t suck
21:36:30  *** oskari89 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:47:40  <mordant> Do Entry/Exit signals ignore block signals between them?
21:48:27  <NGC3982> What a horrible way of war reasoning.
21:49:27  *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:5501:aa51:946e:51b7] has quit [Quit: .]
21:59:55  <Eddi|zuHause> mordant: no
22:00:08  <mordant> thanks
22:06:59  <andythenorth> hrm
22:07:01  <andythenorth> bed
22:07:02  *** andythenorth [] has left #openttd []
22:14:54  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
22:23:11  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:24:18  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
22:29:54  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
22:36:37  *** oskari892 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:36:38  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
22:44:23  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:47:18  *** Brumi [] has joined #openttd
23:00:33  *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@] has quit [Quit:  HydraIRC -> <- Organize your IRC]
23:05:51  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
23:09:21  *** TomyLobo [] has quit [Quit: Standby mode...]
23:10:22  <Wolf01> i think my face has an apointment with the pillow
23:10:36  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
23:12:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm notoriously late to appointments...
23:22:35  *** Jomann [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:23:40  *** Brumi [] has quit []
23:28:56  *** trendynick [~trendynic@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk