Log for #openttd on 14th December 2014:
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08:20:43  <andythenorth> o/
09:17:33  * andythenorth learns about predicates
09:21:14  <andythenorth> enough of that
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09:32:05  <Supercheese> a predicate predicament?
09:32:26  <andythenorth> just curious what they were
09:32:31  <andythenorth> now I know what I don’t know
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09:37:00  <andythenorth> ho ho
09:37:19  <andythenorth> is there a var for ‘date cargo was loaded on this vehicle’?
09:38:50  <planetmaker> moin moin
09:38:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth, no, there isn't
09:39:04  * andythenorth looking in 80+
09:39:26  <Supercheese> according to the internals there is
09:39:35  <Supercheese> 547F2 	[80][352*x] 	Vehicle array
09:39:42  <Supercheese> 3F 	B 	Cargo transit time, in +185 ticks (~2.5 days) units
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09:39:46  <Supercheese> from
09:40:00  <Supercheese> although hmm that is not date
09:40:04  <andythenorth> no
09:40:17  <andythenorth> well, nvm
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09:42:16  <andythenorth> all the steam tractor loads will turn into diesel tractors in 1910
09:42:40  <andythenorth> even while the train is moving :)
09:43:26  <Supercheese> heh
09:49:17  <andythenorth> maybe I could advance the animation frame when visiting a station after 1910
09:49:18  <andythenorth> dunno
09:49:28  <andythenorth> I think TMWFTLB might apply
09:50:24  <Supercheese> agreed
09:50:31  <Supercheese> acceptable bug is acceptable
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10:05:17  <Alberth> moin
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10:12:26  <planetmaker> Supercheese, those are internals of ttdpatch which often don't work with OpenTTD
10:12:50  <planetmaker> andythenorth, last service date
10:13:03  <planetmaker> moin Albert :)
10:13:12  <andythenorth> planetmaker: thought of that
10:13:18  <andythenorth> but disabled breakdowns innit
10:13:24  <andythenorth> unreliable
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10:14:20  <planetmaker> yes, that's true
10:14:55  <Alberth> ha, breakdowns are unreliable, even when switched off :p
10:15:29  <andythenorth> I think the message here is that I’ve added a bad feature
10:15:38  <andythenorth> date-sensitive cargo is not good
10:15:59  <andythenorth> usually fighting the game is a sign of that
10:16:13  <planetmaker> andythenorth, on the other hand: it doesn't hurt if it's unreliable: the worst which can happen is that it looks like now. The best is that you have date-dependent graphics
10:16:57  <planetmaker> but of course, you'll get the bug report, that the cargo changed after a depot visit ;)
10:17:17  <andythenorth> or that steam tractors are show in 1960
10:17:22  <andythenorth> because no depot visit
10:17:25  <andythenorth> shown *
10:18:24  <andythenorth> i’ts a bad feature, I should just use crates
10:18:31  <andythenorth> it’s
10:18:40  * andythenorth has typing shame, I should go back to bed
10:20:41  <planetmaker> I'm pretty sure that steam trucks in 2015 are nicer than crates :)
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10:20:43  <Alberth> fighting the game only means there is no proper solution for something
10:21:05  <planetmaker> yup :)
10:21:37  <andythenorth> afaict the solution is to a var for when cargo was loaded
10:21:54  <andythenorth> again, I can’t type, wtf is going on
10:22:17  <Alberth> no worries, I didn't notice :)
10:26:08  <andythenorth> presumably we know the cargo age, because the profit calculation needs it
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10:31:21  <Alberth> there is something called  days_in_transit
10:32:22  <andythenorth> ah, that’s going to be independent of current date
10:34:30  <Alberth> I am not sure why that solution was chosen, probably there are subtleties in the payment calculation
10:34:49  <andythenorth> probably the easiest for the payment
10:34:58  <Alberth> it can also be a matter of memory storage, date is probably bigger than a day count
10:35:02  <andythenorth> avoids subtracting current date and cargo loaded date
10:36:04  <Alberth> with transfers and cargo laying at stations, it's probably more complicated than end_date - start_date
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10:50:22  <andythenorth> hmm
10:50:36  <andythenorth> also not simple for vehicles
10:51:11  <andythenorth> for similar reason
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11:23:03  <andythenorth> so what do you all do for futuristic trains then?
11:23:08  <andythenorth> monolev set?
11:23:17  <andythenorth> something else?
11:23:23  <andythenorth> NUTS covers all bases?
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11:32:01  <Alberth> everybody does mono/maglev, isn't it?
11:32:49  <andythenorth> I kind of what to add one to Iron Horse
11:32:54  <andythenorth> but I never play past about 2010
11:32:56  <andythenorth> so eh
11:32:58  <NGC3982> Iron Horse?
11:33:01  <Alberth> nuts does it nicely in not really forcing people to switch
11:33:16  <NGC3982> Me too. I hardly ever exceed 1990.
11:33:37  * andythenorth considers monorail for 1960s
11:33:41  <andythenorth> alternative history thing
11:33:43  <andythenorth> might be better
11:34:11  <peter1138> What's alternative about that?
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11:34:41  <peter1138>
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11:35:19  <Alberth> woow, that stays on the track? :)
11:35:42  <Alberth> it looks like it would tip over any moment :)
11:36:20  <andythenorth> considered that already
11:36:24  <andythenorth> gyroscopic
11:36:28  <andythenorth> can’t turn left though
11:36:33  <Alberth> :)
11:36:48  <Alberth> nice constraint for the path finder :p
11:37:23  <peter1138>
11:37:24  <peter1138> cool
11:38:06  <NGC3982> That seems to have a both upper and lower support.
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11:40:40  <argoneus> ayy
11:41:50  <andythenorth> best not to drive off a non-aligned switch
11:41:51  <andythenorth> oops
11:42:13  <NGC3982> I'm bored with OpenTTD again. Haven't played with NUTS for some time, but I don't feel that eager to either.
11:42:20  <andythenorth> you need game scripts
11:42:27  <andythenorth> but no fucker will make them :D
11:42:51  <andythenorth> maybe monorail is urban rapid transit, rather than high speed inter-city
11:42:59  <andythenorth> but then the road crossings suck
11:43:45  <NGC3982> Isn't there a big nice pack for early urban inter-city monorail already?
11:43:51  <andythenorth> probably
11:44:07  <andythenorth> for Iron Horse there would only be one or two trains
11:44:09  <NGC3982> Something-something British.
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11:44:12  <NGC3982> Ok
11:44:20  <andythenorth> if I can steal them from somewhere else, I would be happy
11:44:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: make the rail sink into the road if it's not reserved
11:44:33  <peter1138> That implies you're happy mixing up millions of sets and having no consistency...
11:45:47  <andythenorth> peter1138: yes indeed
11:45:52  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that is a nice idea
11:46:26  <peter1138> Animated level-crossings?
11:46:41  <andythenorth> shocking
11:46:53  <NGC3982> Bah. Installed zBase to refresh my view. Noticed I need a new computer :(
11:47:56  <peter1138> Only difference I noted was everything becomes ugly.
11:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> if everything is slow after using zBase, try increasing the sprite cache size
11:53:15  <NGC3982> Oh. I'll try it. Thanks.
11:55:04  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so (never done railtypes), that would be use the reservation overlay to draw the rail?  Otherwise empty sprite?
12:00:48  <peter1138> Uh, why would Windows Media Player fail to list most songs (apart from 10) from my DLNA share? :S
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12:37:03  <Alberth> o/
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12:39:01  <frosch123> hola
12:39:16  <dreck> do any of you know if the 'opengfx biggui' thing can't be disabled player-wise? (its on a multiplayer game yeah)
12:39:42  <dreck> hi frosch
12:41:53  <planetmaker> hi dreck: no newgrf can be disabled, if required by the server
12:42:03  <frosch123> you could try digging up an ancient version of opengfx-gui (some prelimiary newgrf from 2006, before opengfx baseset was a thing), and load it as static newgrf
12:42:05  <planetmaker> however, it's bad style from the server to require ogfx+biggui
12:42:12  <dreck> planetmaker then you would had though tthe grf would disable itself in such setting
12:42:17  <dreck> and yeah bad indeed :->
12:42:50  <planetmaker> dreck, why would the grf disable itself? And how? It doesn't know it's on a server. There's no difference between MP and SP games
12:42:55  <dreck> it makes the menu looks quite squished up ... and thats not counting the advanced setting menu being a little...squeezed too
12:43:08  <dreck> dunno what its real purpose seem to be
12:43:19  <planetmaker> bigger GUI like its name suggests?
12:43:45  <dreck> except that its not really any bigger..its just making the clickable surface smaller on the contrast
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12:52:27  <peter1138> Eh...
12:52:32  <peter1138> You're still strange.
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13:08:44  <Wolf01> hi hi
13:08:50  <Alberth> moin
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13:13:47  <dreck> hi wolf01
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16:02:22  <NGC3982> bajs.
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16:44:24  <Alberth> o/
16:46:24  <andythenorth> o/
16:59:01  <andythenorth> monorail!
17:00:13  <andythenorth> monorail!
17:02:53  <andythenorth> monorail!Àngebahnen/ANwendungen/39857-1.jpg
17:05:58  <Alberth> nice :)
17:06:15  <Alberth> /me pictures a monorail for moving livestock :p
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17:10:28  <andythenorth> I found some for slaughterhouses
17:10:32  <andythenorth> not nice pictures
17:12:23  <Alberth> anything heavy enough gets moved in this way, cars move that way too in the factory when being assembled
17:12:32  <Alberth> *while
17:13:40  <Alberth> I do like the first 2 pictures, a nice temporary portable mono rail system for moving things at a site
17:14:04  <andythenorth> dunno if it fits ttd though :)
17:15:28  <Alberth> at least it's different from the usual mono rail solution, and it fits in an earlier time period
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17:21:09  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow a sentence starting with "Andy certainly knows better than anybody else" makes me cringe
17:21:23  <andythenorth> me too
17:21:30  <andythenorth> for the record
17:22:54  * andythenorth now avoiding that thread
17:23:23  <andythenorth> hmm
17:23:34  <andythenorth> maybe Brit roster of iron horse just has no futuristic thing
17:23:48  <andythenorth> I*could* do a boring 186mph high-speed-1 Eurostar thing
17:23:54  <andythenorth> but eh, it’s been done, and it’s boring
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17:25:21  <andythenorth> maybe Brit roster really is “done"
17:25:55  <andythenorth> design creep and perfectionism is why Full FIRS is so terrible to play
17:45:27  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27082 trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt (2014-12-14 17:45:22 UTC)
17:45:28  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:29  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas
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17:54:48  <smeding_> hi guys! i'm contemplating trying to integrate a more interesting economic model into openttd as a fun programming project
17:54:51  *** smeding_ is now known as smeding
17:55:10  <smeding> so i was wonder if people know about other attempts, or if people have specific gripes with the current model
17:59:42  <Alberth> the forum is full with such people
18:00:16  <smeding> people who have gripes, or people who are tackling them? :)
18:00:18  <Alberth> although usually it ends with just exchanging personal wish lists
18:00:30  <Alberth> people with gripes
18:00:41  <smeding> well, i'm looking for wish lists, basically
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18:01:19  <Alberth> look in OpenTTD suggestions or OpenTTD problems, depending on how bad you think it is :)
18:01:27  <smeding> yeah, taking a look, thanks
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18:02:44  <Alberth> I don't think you will find something of a global model that works for many people, at best it seems replacement of one random model for another one
18:02:57  <smeding> oh, sure, i'm sure people would have complaints about mine
18:03:19  <smeding> i'm doing this mostly for me.. but it seems useful to look at what other people have said on the matter
18:03:23  <Alberth> OpenTTD is played in many different ways, with different ideas and requirement for the economic model
18:03:53  <Sylf> up to and including ignoring economic models entirely :)
18:04:08  <Alberth> yup :)
18:04:10  <smeding> currently there just doesn't seem to be much choice
18:04:50  <smeding> so if nothing else, it seems worth trying for that reason
18:05:09  <Alberth> tbh I think there is no solution
18:05:45  <Alberth> if you lend money to set up a company, you need to make more money than you pay, to survive
18:06:03  <Alberth> if you do, you can invest that money to make more money
18:06:37  <Alberth> this grows exponentially, so inevitably you will get insane amounts of money if you play long enough
18:06:39  <smeding> yes, but what i usually find happening is that i set up a lucrative few lines or something, and it ends up being very easy to do anything i want after that
18:07:23  <smeding> i'm thinking about tackling this in a few ways... the ideas haven't solidified yet, but one thing i'm thinking of is something like dynamic inflation
18:07:39  <smeding> economics isn't my strong suit, so i've got some reading to do
18:08:21  <Alberth> the goal is that it should increase gaming fun
18:08:39  <smeding> yeah, but that's different for everyone
18:08:47  <Alberth> many people confuse OpenTTD to be a simulation, and try to push real-world ideas into it
18:08:52  <smeding> so basically i think this would make it more fun for me
18:09:28  <Alberth> you know about basecost grfs, and game scripts?
18:09:59  <smeding> yes, and i'm not sure that's enough to effect the improvements i think can be made for my personal case
18:10:23  <Alberth> the CashDrain script comes to mind
18:10:24  <smeding> fwiw, i'm not thinking about pushing to integrate this into openttd trunk really, let alone pushing to use it as a default model
18:10:57  <smeding> all in all, i'm aiming to solve two "problems" that i have personally
18:11:17  <smeding> 1. it seems like it can get rather easy in ways that seem a bit unrealistic to me
18:11:26  <smeding> 2. i'm looking for an interesting programming project
18:11:44  <smeding> that's all. i feel like you're trying to defend the current system but this is not intended as a global replacement
18:11:58  <Alberth> there is a large group of people that likes a more difficult model, the problem is that they don't agree on how to do that
18:12:21  <smeding> yes, and my solution to that is to just try doing what i think would be interesting. i've found a few other people who seem willing to contribute
18:12:34  <Alberth> that would be good
18:12:48  <Alberth> write a patch, let people play with it in a patch pack etc
18:13:01  <smeding> i'm still writing up some notes, so i thought i'd wander in here and see if anyone has something where they say "this really bugs me about the current model"
18:13:16  <smeding> or "people tried this thing and it worked/didn't work for xyz reasons"
18:13:44  <Alberth> I think most people here don't play the game very often :)
18:13:46  <smeding> always good to have some more inspiration
18:14:09  <smeding> hehe. i go back and forth. i recently got into it again, but now the idea of adding some code of my own frankly seems a bit more fun
18:15:03  <Alberth> economic model is a BIG topic, try to structure things, so you can place requests at parts of the model
18:15:22  <Alberth> or it all becomes one big messy heap of stuff
18:15:32  <smeding> well, i agree with what you said before -- this is very subjective -- so i was thinking of not placing requests with anyone but myself
18:15:36  <smeding> but i'm taking notes first, yes
18:16:57  <Sylf> if you can come up with an economic model framework, where people can plug in their own game script/settings to, might actually gain some popularity
18:16:58  <Alberth> subjective is fine, in the ideal case, you can tweak the model by adding knobs at various places in the code
18:17:02  <Sylf> if that's even possible
18:17:36  <smeding> Alberth: i'm definitely aiming to add a lot of twiddleable factors
18:17:54  <planetmaker> Alberth, eventually your money will grow linearily: you cannot expand exponentially fast, thus your income increases with your construction speed :)
18:17:56  <smeding> Sylf: i suppose i could try to implement it modularly, though i don't think it's worthwhile to try to integrate scripting or something
18:18:20  <planetmaker> s/money/increase in money/
18:18:53  <Sylf> it might just mean making AI/GS API available
18:19:05  <Alberth> planetmaker: fair enough, but at that point speed of growth is non-relevant :p
18:20:59  <Alberth> Sylf: interfering in eg payments should be done in C++ code, as there are many such transactions, more than a script can handle. the API should be a higher level policy API thus, eg 50% payment for X, 150% payment for Y, etc
18:21:14  <planetmaker> it totally is irrelevant then, yes :)
18:21:27  <planetmaker> I just felt like being pointlessly pedantic :P
18:21:38  <Alberth> nah!
18:21:42  <Alberth> /me hugs planetmaker
18:21:51  <planetmaker> :)
18:21:57  <Alberth> instead I just hire you to increase my building speed :p
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18:22:15  <planetmaker> haha :) that just increases the slope but not the function :)
18:22:33  <Alberth> It feels like one of those "clicker" games that also grow exponentially in every direction :p
18:23:44  <planetmaker> :)
18:25:16  <smeding> what sources of documentation are there for the code? i found the doxygen and the OpenTTDDevBlackBook stuff on the wiki, is there anything else?
18:25:26  <Alberth> smeding: The only reason why I defend the current model is because I haven't seen anything better yet. Note that my goal is just build network, so the model fails for me in the beginning when I have to wait for money :)
18:25:49  <Alberth> doxygen and the code is the best
18:26:02  <smeding> fair enough
18:26:04  <Alberth> blackbook stuff is probably very much outdated
18:26:19  <smeding> well, looks like it doesn't contain what i was looking for anyway
18:26:21  <Alberth> you can also ask here
18:26:36  <smeding> a description of how things currently work and what happens where in the code wrt e.g. towns
18:26:44  <Alberth> ha!  :)
18:26:55  <Alberth> that would be a book
18:26:58  <planetmaker> also our forums are a good place to ask
18:27:08  <Alberth> OpenTTD has > 300K lines of code
18:27:28  <planetmaker> the code has pretty good comments. A book would basically duplicate that :)
18:27:45  <smeding> well, some pointers would be nice, but yes, the code looks decently documented
18:28:11  <planetmaker> it helps to grep the whole code for what you search. And then go from what turns up :)
18:28:44  <smeding> i did that :)
18:28:45  <smeding> but i like shortcuts
18:28:52  <planetmaker> that works reasonably fast and usually sufficiently little iterations are needed to end up where the interesting stuff happens
18:28:53  <Alberth> smeding: you'll have to be more specific in what you are looking for
18:29:22  <smeding> Alberth: i'll be more specific when i'm not just asking about sources of documentation :P
18:29:48  <planetmaker> also, our wiki explains in the game concepts section pretty well how the game works
18:29:59  <planetmaker> so if it's about how things should work, that's a good place, too
18:30:13  <planetmaker> (though the code is authorative, the wiki is not)
18:30:36  <smeding> i'm just trying to find some bits of the code, e.g. how the town decides to place buildings, and the state each town keeps and such
18:30:52  <smeding> but i'm just poking through the code by myself now
18:30:55  <andythenorth> smeding: the biggest single gripe I’ve seen in forums recently is how payment is related to distance
18:31:02  <Alberth> CommandCost  is pretty basic in the econominc model, but it's throughout the code
18:31:03  <andythenorth> which imho is done correctly currently
18:31:33  <andythenorth> the other thing that bugs ~many people is ‘the money problem’ you described earlier -> succesful company prints money
18:31:56  <Alberth> smeding:    src/town_cmd.cpp:184:static bool BuildTownHouse(Town *t, TileIndex tile);  ?
18:32:18  <smeding> Alberth: yeah grep told me that what i was looking for there was in town_cmd.cpp :)
18:32:40  <Alberth> the _cmd   files handle the game actions
18:32:48  <smeding> although TileLoop_Town looks more specific to what i was trying to find
18:32:58  <smeding> anyway it's all good, i think i'll manage on my own for now :)
18:33:03  <Alberth> ok :)
18:33:43  <Alberth> andythenorth: we need a money printing factory :p
18:33:48  <smeding> i just need to build a model in my head for what the bits are and how they work together
18:33:59  <smeding> the tile loop thing seems like it'd play a big role here
18:34:22  <Alberth> it's the loop for continuously uipdating things in the background
18:34:28  <smeding> yeah
18:34:56  <planetmaker> smeding, the tile loop only calls the actual functions which do stuff
18:35:31  <andythenorth> at the economy level, I have thought about it now and then over many years :P
18:35:38  <andythenorth> and the only two suggestions I have are:
18:35:47  <andythenorth> - progressive, punitive taxation
18:36:27  <Alberth> increase inflation level? :)
18:36:27  <andythenorth> - supply & demand based payment model (Railroad Tycoon 3 did this).  Each tile has a demand function, and if the demand is satisfied price starts to fall for delivered cargo
18:36:44  <smeding> andythenorth: i'm thinking about the latter :)
18:37:08  <smeding> andythenorth: my general idea is also to just model a bit more stuff
18:37:26  <andythenorth> there’s already a newgrf custom payment cb
18:37:34  <andythenorth> and prices per cargo could be stored per town iirc
18:37:50  <andythenorth> so at minimum, town-based supply and demand should be doable with reasonable effort
18:38:00  <andythenorth> maybe not touching the game C++ code much at all
18:38:34  <smeding> andythenorth: one idea i have is tracking how much money each town has tied up in several things -- wealth of the population, business holdings and government budget maybe
18:39:06  <planetmaker> write a game script then, smeding
18:39:38  <planetmaker> and if some info is lacking, patch the GS API so that it becomes viable via game script
18:39:45  <smeding> that's also a possibility
18:39:52  <smeding> i haven't looked into the game scripts much
18:40:02  <smeding> the only one i tried kept pausing the game to do its calculation
18:40:31  <planetmaker> instead of having too many economy models, it's better to outsource that to a script so that everyone can do whatever s/he wants
18:40:37  <planetmaker> without messing with the core
18:41:37  <smeding> i guess that works too
18:44:38  <Alberth> the interesting part would be figuring out if you can have a script set a policy, with some C++ code that handles the actual transactions
18:44:47  <smeding> a policy in what sense?
18:45:33  <Alberth> amount of payment to the user, for example
18:46:20  <Alberth> you cannot ask the script what to do eg for every ton of cargo transported
18:46:50  <smeding> yeah
18:47:16  <Alberth> so you have to set a policy for payment at a higher level, like coal 50%, and food 120%
18:47:52  <smeding> well, i'm more interested in what andythenorth said, which is base things far more on supply and demand -- so the payment rate would vary depending on where it happened
18:48:03  <Alberth> or if you have destinations in mind,  coal from X pays 10%
18:48:46  <smeding> i think that would have to get pretty granular to support what i have in mind
18:48:46  <Alberth> or coal to X, of course
18:49:17  <smeding> "coal to x pays this amount, so long as it's under the limit of what the power plant can process"
18:49:18  <Alberth> one level higher would be something like "this tile 'eats' X tonnes / month"
18:49:32  <Alberth> or "this area"
18:50:39  <smeding> it seems a bit difficult to capture in general terms, but i need to look at how things work more
18:50:54  <Alberth> you may want to play with ECS industry set, which does stockpiling
18:51:28  <Alberth> I agree, the policy problem comes later
18:51:31  <smeding> one thing to note is that i don't have 100% 'done' ideas yet
18:52:05  <Alberth> I don't think anyone has those, unless you mean the current model :p
18:52:10  <smeding> heh
18:52:28  <smeding> well, i mean it's not just a matter of "i need the game to do this" and we can find the best way to accomplish that
18:52:37  <andythenorth> storing a demand factor, per-cargo, per-tile would be useful
18:52:43  <andythenorth> 0-15 would be enough
18:52:47  <andythenorth> default 7 or 8
18:52:55  <andythenorth> unless it’s powers of 2
18:53:01  <andythenorth> then 4 or so
18:53:04  <smeding> in general what i'd like to be able to do is track and calculate a lot of things
18:53:20  <Alberth> smeding: yeah, that's how economy is big and complicated, there are so many ways to change things
18:53:22  <smeding> i'm not sure what the performance of Squirrel is like, the game script i've used before seemed a bit slow
18:53:45  * andythenorth dunno if it’s wise storing a demand factor 64 cargos, per tile on a 4096x4096 map
18:53:54  <andythenorth> 64 bytes per tile
18:53:56  <smeding> and looking at its code (it's "balanced city growth" from the downloads menu)
18:54:16  <smeding> andythenorth: well, what was thinking of is calculating it for a town
18:54:28  <smeding> andythenorth: and that's just for passengers or mail
18:54:43  <smeding> and goods and anything else town buildings might accept -- not 64 anyway
18:55:58  <smeding> so basically, simplify by saying that once someone is in a town, they can get anywhere in the town if they want -- covering the town better just means they can do so more easily
18:56:20  <smeding> andythenorth: and calculating how much other cargoes are needed per industry that accepts that cargo
18:57:57  <andythenorth> trying to do anything with industry is pretty game-overed, if you want to respect newgrf
18:58:03  <andythenorth> if you don’t care, then
19:01:39  <smeding> yeah industry would need to change too
19:01:47  <smeding> but there's possibilities there i think
19:02:02  <smeding> i mean the industry newgrfs. maybe the other ones too
19:02:32  <smeding> i think the other stuff would mostly tie into the economy through base costs? that seems pretty adaptable to other systems
19:02:40  <smeding> just a relative measure of how expensive things are
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19:07:42  * andythenorth wonders
19:07:54  <andythenorth> are base costs exposed to GS currently
19:07:57  <andythenorth> docs would tell me :P
19:11:31  <smeding> hmmm, is there a sort of callback model between GS and the C++ code?
19:11:46  <smeding> that seems like one of the better ways to go if you want to handle things like economy
19:12:10  <smeding> something to the effect of "hey, call this when cargo is delivered so we can compute how much it should make the player"
19:17:01  <Alberth> that will fail with a few hundred trains already, let alone say a 1000
19:17:38  <smeding> oh, is it that slow?
19:17:45  <Alberth> ie a MP game with 15 companies
19:18:02  <Alberth> well, you can hit the CPU limit with trains currently
19:18:31  <Alberth> any time you use for calculations immediately translates to less trains driving around
19:18:43  <andythenorth> afaik GS is turn-based, no cbs
19:18:50  <andythenorth> but I haven’t written any, so eh
19:19:08  <smeding> yeah, it looked that way
19:19:12  <Alberth> for SP it's not a problem perhaps, but in MP where your patch would be popular...
19:19:18  <smeding> Alberth: yeah.
19:19:56  <Alberth> but you first need to decide what to change :)
19:20:00  <smeding> Alberth: i'm not sure what the best way to do it is... sounds like we're back to my idea of just branching off, and possibly making it a selectable option
19:20:27  <andythenorth> providing a pluggable economy is definitely needing branching ottd
19:20:30  <Alberth> yeah, just make a patch, and see how you and others like it
19:20:47  <andythenorth> mucking about with the economy for entertainment can be done without touching ottd at all
19:20:53  <andythenorth> I’d pick one :)
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19:44:01  <Alberth> hmm, original map generator produces really ugly maps :p
19:46:19  <andythenorth> they’re quite special
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19:49:05  <Alberth> yeah, I should play one, I haven't done that ever since I started playing with OpenTTD
19:51:41  <frosch123> Alberth: make sure to use original graphics then, not opengfx
19:52:55  <frosch123> i don't think people spent too much time on the mapgen sprites in ogfx :)
19:52:58  <peter1138> And make sure height levels is 15.
19:53:26  <andythenorth> salt mine
19:53:44  <andythenorth> original map gen is rubbish
19:53:50  <andythenorth> but has a nostalgia value
19:54:16  <frosch123> andythenorth: now fillled up with barrels of nuclear waste?
19:54:23  <andythenorth> dunno :)
19:54:38  <andythenorth> also imho original map gen makes for better route building
19:54:42  <andythenorth> even if it looks terrible
19:55:15  <andythenorth> tends to produce benches on mountains
19:55:20  <andythenorth> and buildable valleys
19:56:22  <andythenorth> TGP looks a bit less silly but is a PITA to actually build on
20:08:36  <andythenorth> so which rendering app is de-rigeur these days?
20:08:45  <andythenorth> please don’t tell me sketchup :(
20:16:26  <andythenorth> V453000: go on, render me one of these at 1x zoom :D
20:17:27  <andythenorth> it’s just 2 cones and a cylinder, but I don’t have all the lighting rig and camera and all the 3D crap :)
20:19:16  <Alberth> too many weird sites referenced from that one
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21:18:56  <Alberth> andythenorth:    a bit too close perhaps?
21:19:07  <Wolf01> nah
21:19:08  <andythenorth> interesting
21:19:16  <andythenorth> didn’t know they’d do that
21:20:04  <Alberth> plenty of space everywhere, and they clutter together :)
21:22:29  <andythenorth> silly things
21:22:50  <andythenorth> someone should fix FIRS
21:22:52  <andythenorth> full of bugs
21:24:25  <frosch123> call your next grf FOB :)
21:25:43  <andythenorth> the next one will be pipes
21:25:49  <andythenorth> pipes can be full of bugs :P
21:26:35  <Alberth> PWB  (pipes with bugs)
21:26:45  <andythenorth> PDB
21:27:03  <andythenorth> Piped Bugger
21:27:23  * andythenorth is having newgrf finishing motivation issues
21:27:32  <andythenorth> anyone written a new GS yet?
21:27:37  <andythenorth> other than CashDrain?
21:29:52  <Alberth> you have a nice idea?
21:31:11  <andythenorth> not yet
21:33:12  <Alberth> k
21:33:14  <Alberth> gn
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22:10:36  <Wolf01> nn
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22:13:01  <argoneus>
22:13:03  <argoneus> imagine being a god
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