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09:32:26 <andythenorth> just curious what they were 09:32:31 <andythenorth> now I know what I donât know 09:33:11 *** TomyLobo [~foo@ip5b417367.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #openttd 09:34:03 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 09:34:06 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 09:37:00 <andythenorth> ho ho 09:37:19 <andythenorth> is there a var for âdate cargo was loaded on this vehicleâ? 09:38:50 <planetmaker> moin moin 09:38:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth, no, there isn't 09:39:04 * andythenorth looking in 80+ 09:39:26 <Supercheese> according to the internals there is 09:39:35 <Supercheese> 547F2 [80][352*x] Vehicle array 09:39:42 <Supercheese> 3F B Cargo transit time, in +185 ticks (~2.5 days) units 09:39:44 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A196.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 09:39:46 <Supercheese> from http://www.ttdpatch.de/grfspecs/Transport_Tycoon_Deluxe_savegame_internals.html 09:40:00 <Supercheese> although hmm that is not date 09:40:04 <andythenorth> no 09:40:17 <andythenorth> well, nvm 09:40:21 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-97-16.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:41:57 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 09:42:16 <andythenorth> all the steam tractor loads will turn into diesel tractors in 1910 09:42:40 <andythenorth> even while the train is moving :) 09:43:26 <Supercheese> heh 09:49:17 <andythenorth> maybe I could advance the animation frame when visiting a station after 1910 09:49:18 <andythenorth> dunno 09:49:28 <andythenorth> I think TMWFTLB might apply 09:50:24 <Supercheese> agreed 09:50:31 <Supercheese> acceptable bug is acceptable 09:56:42 *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 09:56:45 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 10:03:12 *** jinks- [~jinks@172.245.35.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:04:13 *** jinks_ [~jinks@172.245.35.67] has joined #openttd 10:05:17 <Alberth> moin 10:07:07 *** itsatacoshop247 [~itsatacos@c-76-102-167-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:09:23 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 10:09:27 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 10:11:50 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@84.238.140.178] has joined #openttd 10:11:55 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@84.238.140.178] has quit [] 10:12:26 <planetmaker> Supercheese, those are internals of ttdpatch which often don't work with OpenTTD 10:12:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth, last service date 10:13:03 <planetmaker> moin Albert :) 10:13:12 <andythenorth> planetmaker: thought of that 10:13:18 <andythenorth> but disabled breakdowns innit 10:13:24 <andythenorth> unreliable 10:13:54 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:ad81:a69:db3:47f5] has joined #openttd 10:14:20 <planetmaker> yes, that's true 10:14:55 <Alberth> ha, breakdowns are unreliable, even when switched off :p 10:15:29 <andythenorth> I think the message here is that Iâve added a bad feature 10:15:38 <andythenorth> date-sensitive cargo is not good 10:15:59 <andythenorth> usually fighting the game is a sign of that 10:16:13 <planetmaker> andythenorth, on the other hand: it doesn't hurt if it's unreliable: the worst which can happen is that it looks like now. The best is that you have date-dependent graphics 10:16:57 <planetmaker> but of course, you'll get the bug report, that the cargo changed after a depot visit ;) 10:17:17 <andythenorth> or that steam tractors are show in 1960 10:17:22 <andythenorth> because no depot visit 10:17:25 <andythenorth> shown * 10:18:24 <andythenorth> iâts a bad feature, I should just use crates 10:18:31 <andythenorth> itâs 10:18:40 * andythenorth has typing shame, I should go back to bed 10:20:41 <planetmaker> I'm pretty sure that steam trucks in 2015 are nicer than crates :) 10:20:41 *** DDR [~kvirc@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:20:43 <Alberth> fighting the game only means there is no proper solution for something 10:21:05 <planetmaker> yup :) 10:21:37 <andythenorth> afaict the solution is to a var for when cargo was loaded 10:21:54 <andythenorth> again, I canât type, wtf is going on 10:22:17 <Alberth> no worries, I didn't notice :) 10:26:08 <andythenorth> presumably we know the cargo age, because the profit calculation needs it 10:27:15 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@blfd-4db018e2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:29:49 *** Plaete [~moffi@dsdf-5d82ee66.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 10:31:21 <Alberth> there is something called days_in_transit 10:32:22 <andythenorth> ah, thatâs going to be independent of current date 10:34:30 <Alberth> I am not sure why that solution was chosen, probably there are subtleties in the payment calculation 10:34:49 <andythenorth> probably the easiest for the payment 10:34:58 <Alberth> it can also be a matter of memory storage, date is probably bigger than a day count 10:35:02 <andythenorth> avoids subtracting current date and cargo loaded date 10:36:04 <Alberth> with transfers and cargo laying at stations, it's probably more complicated than end_date - start_date 10:42:05 *** Plaete [~moffi@dsdf-5d82ee66.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:49:32 *** jinks_ [~jinks@172.245.35.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:49:54 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #openttd 10:50:18 *** jinks_ [~jinks@172.245.35.67] has joined #openttd 10:50:22 <andythenorth> hmm 10:50:36 <andythenorth> also not simple for vehicles 10:51:11 <andythenorth> for similar reason 11:01:21 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3119.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 11:07:52 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-171-227.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 11:20:37 *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@86.92.59.88] has joined #openttd 11:23:03 <andythenorth> so what do you all do for futuristic trains then? 11:23:08 <andythenorth> monolev set? 11:23:17 <andythenorth> something else? 11:23:23 <andythenorth> NUTS covers all bases? 11:28:33 *** supermop_ [~supermop@d110-33-189-132.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 11:31:53 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A196.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:01 <Alberth> everybody does mono/maglev, isn't it? 11:32:49 <andythenorth> I kind of what to add one to Iron Horse 11:32:54 <andythenorth> but I never play past about 2010 11:32:56 <andythenorth> so eh 11:32:58 <NGC3982> Iron Horse? 11:33:01 <Alberth> nuts does it nicely in not really forcing people to switch 11:33:16 <NGC3982> Me too. I hardly ever exceed 1990. 11:33:37 * andythenorth considers monorail for 1960s 11:33:41 <andythenorth> alternative history thing 11:33:43 <andythenorth> might be better 11:34:11 <peter1138> What's alternative about that? 11:34:27 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-171-227.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:34:41 <peter1138> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Einschienerp.jpg 11:34:54 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 11:35:19 <Alberth> woow, that stays on the track? :) 11:35:42 <Alberth> it looks like it would tip over any moment :) 11:36:20 <andythenorth> considered that already 11:36:24 <andythenorth> gyroscopic 11:36:28 <andythenorth> canât turn left though 11:36:33 <Alberth> :) 11:36:48 <Alberth> nice constraint for the path finder :p 11:37:23 <peter1138> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Osaka_switches_tms.jpg 11:37:24 <peter1138> cool 11:38:06 <NGC3982> That seems to have a both upper and lower support. 11:39:38 *** supermop_ [~supermop@d110-33-189-132.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:40:40 <argoneus> ayy 11:41:50 <andythenorth> best not to drive off a non-aligned switch 11:41:51 <andythenorth> oops 11:42:13 <NGC3982> I'm bored with OpenTTD again. Haven't played with NUTS for some time, but I don't feel that eager to either. 11:42:20 <andythenorth> you need game scripts 11:42:27 <andythenorth> but no fucker will make them :D 11:42:51 <andythenorth> maybe monorail is urban rapid transit, rather than high speed inter-city 11:42:59 <andythenorth> but then the road crossings suck 11:43:45 <NGC3982> Isn't there a big nice pack for early urban inter-city monorail already? 11:43:51 <andythenorth> probably 11:44:07 <andythenorth> for Iron Horse there would only be one or two trains 11:44:09 <NGC3982> Something-something British. 11:44:09 *** supermop_ [~supermop@d110-33-188-87.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 11:44:12 <NGC3982> Ok 11:44:20 <andythenorth> if I can steal them from somewhere else, I would be happy 11:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: make the rail sink into the road if it's not reserved 11:44:33 <peter1138> That implies you're happy mixing up millions of sets and having no consistency... 11:45:47 <andythenorth> peter1138: yes indeed 11:45:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that is a nice idea 11:46:26 <peter1138> Animated level-crossings? 11:46:41 <andythenorth> shocking 11:46:53 <NGC3982> Bah. Installed zBase to refresh my view. Noticed I need a new computer :( 11:47:56 <peter1138> Only difference I noted was everything becomes ugly. 11:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> if everything is slow after using zBase, try increasing the sprite cache size 11:53:15 <NGC3982> Oh. I'll try it. Thanks. 11:55:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so (never done railtypes), that would be use the reservation overlay to draw the rail? Otherwise empty sprite? 12:00:48 <peter1138> Uh, why would Windows Media Player fail to list most songs (apart from 10) from my DLNA share? :S 12:08:10 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 12:13:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 12:15:44 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:30:20 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d01181e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:31:49 *** Supercheese is now known as Guest1719 12:31:54 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 12:33:30 *** Pensacola [~quassel@c80094.upc-c.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 12:36:56 *** Guest1719 [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:37:03 <Alberth> o/ 12:38:50 *** dreck [~oftc-webi@modemcable061.44-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 12:39:01 <frosch123> hola 12:39:16 <dreck> do any of you know if the 'opengfx biggui' thing can't be disabled player-wise? (its on a multiplayer game yeah) 12:39:42 <dreck> hi frosch 12:41:53 <planetmaker> hi dreck: no newgrf can be disabled, if required by the server 12:42:03 <frosch123> you could try digging up an ancient version of opengfx-gui (some prelimiary newgrf from 2006, before opengfx baseset was a thing), and load it as static newgrf 12:42:05 <planetmaker> however, it's bad style from the server to require ogfx+biggui 12:42:12 <dreck> planetmaker then you would had though tthe grf would disable itself in such setting 12:42:17 <dreck> and yeah bad indeed :-> 12:42:50 <planetmaker> dreck, why would the grf disable itself? And how? It doesn't know it's on a server. There's no difference between MP and SP games 12:42:55 <dreck> it makes the menu looks quite squished up ... and thats not counting the advanced setting menu being a little...squeezed too 12:43:08 <dreck> dunno what its real purpose seem to be 12:43:19 <planetmaker> bigger GUI like its name suggests? 12:43:45 <dreck> except that its not really any bigger..its just making the clickable surface smaller on the contrast 12:48:07 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-164-143.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 12:52:27 <peter1138> Eh... 12:52:32 <peter1138> You're still strange. 12:52:52 *** supermop_ [~supermop@d110-33-188-87.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:06:51 *** MJP [~mjp@hq.z77.fr] has joined #openttd 13:08:39 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 13:08:44 <Wolf01> hi hi 13:08:50 <Alberth> moin 13:13:04 *** supermop_ [~supermop@d110-33-175-185.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 13:13:23 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-164-143.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:13:47 <dreck> hi wolf01 13:16:29 *** jjavaholic [~jjavaholi@grahamg63.plus.com] has joined #openttd 13:17:38 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-174-113.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 13:23:57 *** supermop_ [~supermop@d110-33-175-185.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:25:41 *** Flygon__ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 13:31:31 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 13:31:53 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-174-113.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:32:32 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:07:47 *** Plaete [~moffi@dsdf-5d82ee66.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:14:37 *** Jinassi [~Jinassi@0001ec72.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 14:16:49 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6DFBF.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 14:19:45 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.91.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:29:55 *** liq3 [~liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 14:46:13 *** Plaete [~moffi@dsdf-4db5519f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:15:20 *** Pensacola [~quassel@c80094.upc-c.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:59 <Quatroking> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5JflElJELk 15:29:39 *** dreck [~oftc-webi@modemcable061.44-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [] 15:46:01 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:01:13 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-167-133.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 16:02:22 <NGC3982> bajs. 16:44:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 16:44:24 <Alberth> o/ 16:46:24 <andythenorth> o/ 16:59:01 <andythenorth> monorail! http://www.olympicaquaticengineers.co.uk/monorail-transportation-system 17:00:13 <andythenorth> monorail! http://www.narrow-gauge.co.uk/gallery/show.php?image_id=3465&cat_id=394 17:02:53 <andythenorth> monorail! http://www.demagcranes.co.uk/files/content/sites/uk/files/Products/Leichtkransystem_KBK/KBK-HÀngebahnen/ANwendungen/39857-1.jpg 17:05:58 <Alberth> nice :) 17:06:15 <Alberth> /me pictures a monorail for moving livestock :p 17:08:16 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@blfd-4db018e2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: yo yo yo] 17:10:28 <andythenorth> I found some for slaughterhouses 17:10:32 <andythenorth> not nice pictures 17:12:23 <Alberth> anything heavy enough gets moved in this way, cars move that way too in the factory when being assembled 17:12:32 <Alberth> *while 17:13:40 <Alberth> I do like the first 2 pictures, a nice temporary portable mono rail system for moving things at a site 17:14:04 <andythenorth> dunno if it fits ttd though :) 17:15:28 <Alberth> at least it's different from the usual mono rail solution, and it fits in an earlier time period 17:18:56 *** sla_ro|master2 [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 17:21:09 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> somehow a sentence starting with "Andy certainly knows better than anybody else" makes me cringe 17:21:23 <andythenorth> me too 17:21:30 <andythenorth> for the record 17:22:54 * andythenorth now avoiding that thread 17:23:23 <andythenorth> hmm 17:23:34 <andythenorth> maybe Brit roster of iron horse just has no futuristic thing 17:23:48 <andythenorth> I*could* do a boring 186mph high-speed-1 Eurostar thing 17:23:54 <andythenorth> but eh, itâs been done, and itâs boring 17:23:58 *** sla_ro|master2 [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 17:24:00 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 17:25:21 <andythenorth> maybe Brit roster really is âdone" 17:25:55 <andythenorth> design creep and perfectionism is why Full FIRS is so terrible to play 17:45:27 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27082 trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt (2014-12-14 17:45:22 UTC) 17:45:28 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:29 <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas 17:53:32 *** Hazzard [~quassel@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 17:54:20 *** smeding_ [~roysmedin@roysmeding.nl] has joined #openttd 17:54:48 <smeding_> hi guys! i'm contemplating trying to integrate a more interesting economic model into openttd as a fun programming project 17:54:51 *** smeding_ is now known as smeding 17:55:10 <smeding> so i was wonder if people know about other attempts, or if people have specific gripes with the current model 17:59:42 <Alberth> the forum is full with such people 18:00:16 <smeding> people who have gripes, or people who are tackling them? :) 18:00:18 <Alberth> although usually it ends with just exchanging personal wish lists 18:00:30 <Alberth> people with gripes 18:00:41 <smeding> well, i'm looking for wish lists, basically 18:00:50 *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@86.92.59.88] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01:19 <Alberth> look in OpenTTD suggestions or OpenTTD problems, depending on how bad you think it is :) 18:01:27 <smeding> yeah, taking a look, thanks 18:01:31 *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@86.92.59.88] has joined #openttd 18:02:44 <Alberth> I don't think you will find something of a global model that works for many people, at best it seems replacement of one random model for another one 18:02:57 <smeding> oh, sure, i'm sure people would have complaints about mine 18:03:19 <smeding> i'm doing this mostly for me.. but it seems useful to look at what other people have said on the matter 18:03:23 <Alberth> OpenTTD is played in many different ways, with different ideas and requirement for the economic model 18:03:53 <Sylf> up to and including ignoring economic models entirely :) 18:04:08 <Alberth> yup :) 18:04:10 <smeding> currently there just doesn't seem to be much choice 18:04:50 <smeding> so if nothing else, it seems worth trying for that reason 18:05:09 <Alberth> tbh I think there is no solution 18:05:45 <Alberth> if you lend money to set up a company, you need to make more money than you pay, to survive 18:06:03 <Alberth> if you do, you can invest that money to make more money 18:06:37 <Alberth> this grows exponentially, so inevitably you will get insane amounts of money if you play long enough 18:06:39 <smeding> yes, but what i usually find happening is that i set up a lucrative few lines or something, and it ends up being very easy to do anything i want after that 18:07:23 <smeding> i'm thinking about tackling this in a few ways... the ideas haven't solidified yet, but one thing i'm thinking of is something like dynamic inflation 18:07:39 <smeding> economics isn't my strong suit, so i've got some reading to do 18:08:21 <Alberth> the goal is that it should increase gaming fun 18:08:39 <smeding> yeah, but that's different for everyone 18:08:47 <Alberth> many people confuse OpenTTD to be a simulation, and try to push real-world ideas into it 18:08:52 <smeding> so basically i think this would make it more fun for me 18:09:28 <Alberth> you know about basecost grfs, and game scripts? 18:09:59 <smeding> yes, and i'm not sure that's enough to effect the improvements i think can be made for my personal case 18:10:23 <Alberth> the CashDrain script comes to mind 18:10:24 <smeding> fwiw, i'm not thinking about pushing to integrate this into openttd trunk really, let alone pushing to use it as a default model 18:10:57 <smeding> all in all, i'm aiming to solve two "problems" that i have personally 18:11:17 <smeding> 1. it seems like it can get rather easy in ways that seem a bit unrealistic to me 18:11:26 <smeding> 2. i'm looking for an interesting programming project 18:11:44 <smeding> that's all. i feel like you're trying to defend the current system but this is not intended as a global replacement 18:11:58 <Alberth> there is a large group of people that likes a more difficult model, the problem is that they don't agree on how to do that 18:12:21 <smeding> yes, and my solution to that is to just try doing what i think would be interesting. i've found a few other people who seem willing to contribute 18:12:34 <Alberth> that would be good 18:12:48 <Alberth> write a patch, let people play with it in a patch pack etc 18:13:01 <smeding> i'm still writing up some notes, so i thought i'd wander in here and see if anyone has something where they say "this really bugs me about the current model" 18:13:16 <smeding> or "people tried this thing and it worked/didn't work for xyz reasons" 18:13:44 <Alberth> I think most people here don't play the game very often :) 18:13:46 <smeding> always good to have some more inspiration 18:14:09 <smeding> hehe. i go back and forth. i recently got into it again, but now the idea of adding some code of my own frankly seems a bit more fun 18:15:03 <Alberth> economic model is a BIG topic, try to structure things, so you can place requests at parts of the model 18:15:22 <Alberth> or it all becomes one big messy heap of stuff 18:15:32 <smeding> well, i agree with what you said before -- this is very subjective -- so i was thinking of not placing requests with anyone but myself 18:15:36 <smeding> but i'm taking notes first, yes 18:16:57 <Sylf> if you can come up with an economic model framework, where people can plug in their own game script/settings to, might actually gain some popularity 18:16:58 <Alberth> subjective is fine, in the ideal case, you can tweak the model by adding knobs at various places in the code 18:17:02 <Sylf> if that's even possible 18:17:36 <smeding> Alberth: i'm definitely aiming to add a lot of twiddleable factors 18:17:54 <planetmaker> Alberth, eventually your money will grow linearily: you cannot expand exponentially fast, thus your income increases with your construction speed :) 18:17:56 <smeding> Sylf: i suppose i could try to implement it modularly, though i don't think it's worthwhile to try to integrate scripting or something 18:18:20 <planetmaker> s/money/increase in money/ 18:18:53 <Sylf> it might just mean making AI/GS API available 18:19:05 <Alberth> planetmaker: fair enough, but at that point speed of growth is non-relevant :p 18:20:59 <Alberth> Sylf: interfering in eg payments should be done in C++ code, as there are many such transactions, more than a script can handle. the API should be a higher level policy API thus, eg 50% payment for X, 150% payment for Y, etc 18:21:14 <planetmaker> it totally is irrelevant then, yes :) 18:21:27 <planetmaker> I just felt like being pointlessly pedantic :P 18:21:38 <Alberth> nah! 18:21:42 <Alberth> /me hugs planetmaker 18:21:51 <planetmaker> :) 18:21:57 <Alberth> instead I just hire you to increase my building speed :p 18:22:10 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 18:22:15 <planetmaker> haha :) that just increases the slope but not the function :) 18:22:33 <Alberth> It feels like one of those "clicker" games that also grow exponentially in every direction :p 18:23:44 <planetmaker> :) 18:25:16 <smeding> what sources of documentation are there for the code? i found the doxygen and the OpenTTDDevBlackBook stuff on the wiki, is there anything else? 18:25:26 <Alberth> smeding: The only reason why I defend the current model is because I haven't seen anything better yet. Note that my goal is just build network, so the model fails for me in the beginning when I have to wait for money :) 18:25:49 <Alberth> doxygen and the code is the best 18:26:02 <smeding> fair enough 18:26:04 <Alberth> blackbook stuff is probably very much outdated 18:26:19 <smeding> well, looks like it doesn't contain what i was looking for anyway 18:26:21 <Alberth> you can also ask here 18:26:36 <smeding> a description of how things currently work and what happens where in the code wrt e.g. towns 18:26:44 <Alberth> ha! :) 18:26:55 <Alberth> that would be a book 18:26:58 <planetmaker> also our forums are a good place to ask 18:27:08 <Alberth> OpenTTD has > 300K lines of code 18:27:28 <planetmaker> the code has pretty good comments. A book would basically duplicate that :) 18:27:45 <smeding> well, some pointers would be nice, but yes, the code looks decently documented 18:28:11 <planetmaker> it helps to grep the whole code for what you search. And then go from what turns up :) 18:28:44 <smeding> i did that :) 18:28:45 <smeding> but i like shortcuts 18:28:52 <planetmaker> that works reasonably fast and usually sufficiently little iterations are needed to end up where the interesting stuff happens 18:28:53 <Alberth> smeding: you'll have to be more specific in what you are looking for 18:29:22 <smeding> Alberth: i'll be more specific when i'm not just asking about sources of documentation :P 18:29:48 <planetmaker> also, our wiki explains in the game concepts section pretty well how the game works 18:29:59 <planetmaker> so if it's about how things should work, that's a good place, too 18:30:13 <planetmaker> (though the code is authorative, the wiki is not) 18:30:36 <smeding> i'm just trying to find some bits of the code, e.g. how the town decides to place buildings, and the state each town keeps and such 18:30:52 <smeding> but i'm just poking through the code by myself now 18:30:55 <andythenorth> smeding: the biggest single gripe Iâve seen in forums recently is how payment is related to distance 18:31:02 <Alberth> CommandCost is pretty basic in the econominc model, but it's throughout the code 18:31:03 <andythenorth> which imho is done correctly currently 18:31:33 <andythenorth> the other thing that bugs ~many people is âthe money problemâ you described earlier -> succesful company prints money 18:31:56 <Alberth> smeding: src/town_cmd.cpp:184:static bool BuildTownHouse(Town *t, TileIndex tile); ? 18:32:18 <smeding> Alberth: yeah grep told me that what i was looking for there was in town_cmd.cpp :) 18:32:40 <Alberth> the _cmd files handle the game actions 18:32:48 <smeding> although TileLoop_Town looks more specific to what i was trying to find 18:32:58 <smeding> anyway it's all good, i think i'll manage on my own for now :) 18:33:03 <Alberth> ok :) 18:33:43 <Alberth> andythenorth: we need a money printing factory :p 18:33:48 <smeding> i just need to build a model in my head for what the bits are and how they work together 18:33:59 <smeding> the tile loop thing seems like it'd play a big role here 18:34:22 <Alberth> it's the loop for continuously uipdating things in the background 18:34:28 <smeding> yeah 18:34:56 <planetmaker> smeding, the tile loop only calls the actual functions which do stuff 18:35:31 <andythenorth> at the economy level, I have thought about it now and then over many years :P 18:35:38 <andythenorth> and the only two suggestions I have are: 18:35:47 <andythenorth> - progressive, punitive taxation 18:36:27 <Alberth> increase inflation level? :) 18:36:27 <andythenorth> - supply & demand based payment model (Railroad Tycoon 3 did this). Each tile has a demand function, and if the demand is satisfied price starts to fall for delivered cargo 18:36:44 <smeding> andythenorth: i'm thinking about the latter :) 18:37:08 <smeding> andythenorth: my general idea is also to just model a bit more stuff 18:37:26 <andythenorth> thereâs already a newgrf custom payment cb 18:37:34 <andythenorth> and prices per cargo could be stored per town iirc 18:37:50 <andythenorth> so at minimum, town-based supply and demand should be doable with reasonable effort 18:38:00 <andythenorth> maybe not touching the game C++ code much at all 18:38:34 <smeding> andythenorth: one idea i have is tracking how much money each town has tied up in several things -- wealth of the population, business holdings and government budget maybe 18:39:06 <planetmaker> write a game script then, smeding 18:39:38 <planetmaker> and if some info is lacking, patch the GS API so that it becomes viable via game script 18:39:45 <smeding> that's also a possibility 18:39:52 <smeding> i haven't looked into the game scripts much 18:40:02 <smeding> the only one i tried kept pausing the game to do its calculation 18:40:31 <planetmaker> instead of having too many economy models, it's better to outsource that to a script so that everyone can do whatever s/he wants 18:40:37 <planetmaker> without messing with the core 18:41:37 <smeding> i guess that works too 18:44:38 <Alberth> the interesting part would be figuring out if you can have a script set a policy, with some C++ code that handles the actual transactions 18:44:47 <smeding> a policy in what sense? 18:45:33 <Alberth> amount of payment to the user, for example 18:46:20 <Alberth> you cannot ask the script what to do eg for every ton of cargo transported 18:46:50 <smeding> yeah 18:47:16 <Alberth> so you have to set a policy for payment at a higher level, like coal 50%, and food 120% 18:47:52 <smeding> well, i'm more interested in what andythenorth said, which is base things far more on supply and demand -- so the payment rate would vary depending on where it happened 18:48:03 <Alberth> or if you have destinations in mind, coal from X pays 10% 18:48:46 <smeding> i think that would have to get pretty granular to support what i have in mind 18:48:46 <Alberth> or coal to X, of course 18:49:17 <smeding> "coal to x pays this amount, so long as it's under the limit of what the power plant can process" 18:49:18 <Alberth> one level higher would be something like "this tile 'eats' X tonnes / month" 18:49:32 <Alberth> or "this area" 18:50:39 <smeding> it seems a bit difficult to capture in general terms, but i need to look at how things work more 18:50:54 <Alberth> you may want to play with ECS industry set, which does stockpiling 18:51:28 <Alberth> I agree, the policy problem comes later 18:51:31 <smeding> one thing to note is that i don't have 100% 'done' ideas yet 18:52:05 <Alberth> I don't think anyone has those, unless you mean the current model :p 18:52:10 <smeding> heh 18:52:28 <smeding> well, i mean it's not just a matter of "i need the game to do this" and we can find the best way to accomplish that 18:52:37 <andythenorth> storing a demand factor, per-cargo, per-tile would be useful 18:52:43 <andythenorth> 0-15 would be enough 18:52:47 <andythenorth> default 7 or 8 18:52:55 <andythenorth> unless itâs powers of 2 18:53:01 <andythenorth> then 4 or so 18:53:04 <smeding> in general what i'd like to be able to do is track and calculate a lot of things 18:53:20 <Alberth> smeding: yeah, that's how economy is big and complicated, there are so many ways to change things 18:53:22 <smeding> i'm not sure what the performance of Squirrel is like, the game script i've used before seemed a bit slow 18:53:45 * andythenorth dunno if itâs wise storing a demand factor 64 cargos, per tile on a 4096x4096 map 18:53:54 <andythenorth> 64 bytes per tile 18:53:56 <smeding> and looking at its code (it's "balanced city growth" from the downloads menu) 18:54:16 <smeding> andythenorth: well, what was thinking of is calculating it for a town 18:54:28 <smeding> andythenorth: and that's just for passengers or mail 18:54:43 <smeding> and goods and anything else town buildings might accept -- not 64 anyway 18:55:58 <smeding> so basically, simplify by saying that once someone is in a town, they can get anywhere in the town if they want -- covering the town better just means they can do so more easily 18:56:20 <smeding> andythenorth: and calculating how much other cargoes are needed per industry that accepts that cargo 18:57:57 <andythenorth> trying to do anything with industry is pretty game-overed, if you want to respect newgrf 18:58:03 <andythenorth> if you donât care, then⊠:) 19:01:39 <smeding> yeah industry would need to change too 19:01:47 <smeding> but there's possibilities there i think 19:02:02 <smeding> i mean the industry newgrfs. maybe the other ones too 19:02:32 <smeding> i think the other stuff would mostly tie into the economy through base costs? that seems pretty adaptable to other systems 19:02:40 <smeding> just a relative measure of how expensive things are 19:04:12 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd 19:07:42 * andythenorth wonders 19:07:54 <andythenorth> are base costs exposed to GS currently 19:07:57 <andythenorth> docs would tell me :P 19:11:31 <smeding> hmmm, is there a sort of callback model between GS and the C++ code? 19:11:46 <smeding> that seems like one of the better ways to go if you want to handle things like economy 19:12:10 <smeding> something to the effect of "hey, call this when cargo is delivered so we can compute how much it should make the player" 19:17:01 <Alberth> that will fail with a few hundred trains already, let alone say a 1000 19:17:38 <smeding> oh, is it that slow? 19:17:45 <Alberth> ie a MP game with 15 companies 19:18:02 <Alberth> well, you can hit the CPU limit with trains currently 19:18:31 <Alberth> any time you use for calculations immediately translates to less trains driving around 19:18:43 <andythenorth> afaik GS is turn-based, no cbs 19:18:50 <andythenorth> but I havenât written any, so eh 19:19:08 <smeding> yeah, it looked that way 19:19:12 <Alberth> for SP it's not a problem perhaps, but in MP where your patch would be popular... 19:19:18 <smeding> Alberth: yeah. 19:19:56 <Alberth> but you first need to decide what to change :) 19:20:00 <smeding> Alberth: i'm not sure what the best way to do it is... sounds like we're back to my idea of just branching off, and possibly making it a selectable option 19:20:27 <andythenorth> providing a pluggable economy is definitely needing branching ottd 19:20:30 <Alberth> yeah, just make a patch, and see how you and others like it 19:20:47 <andythenorth> mucking about with the economy for entertainment can be done without touching ottd at all 19:20:53 <andythenorth> Iâd pick one :) 19:33:44 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:41:52 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6DFBF.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:43:04 *** Plaete [~moffi@dsdf-4db5519f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 19:44:01 <Alberth> hmm, original map generator produces really ugly maps :p 19:46:19 <andythenorth> theyâre quite special 19:48:08 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 19:48:12 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 19:49:05 <Alberth> yeah, I should play one, I haven't done that ever since I started playing with OpenTTD 19:51:41 <frosch123> Alberth: make sure to use original graphics then, not opengfx 19:52:55 <frosch123> i don't think people spent too much time on the mapgen sprites in ogfx :) 19:52:58 <peter1138> And make sure height levels is 15. 19:53:26 <andythenorth> salt mine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68v8HLoN3Ng 19:53:44 <andythenorth> original map gen is rubbish 19:53:50 <andythenorth> but has a nostalgia value 19:54:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: now fillled up with barrels of nuclear waste? 19:54:23 <andythenorth> dunno :) 19:54:38 <andythenorth> also imho original map gen makes for better route building 19:54:42 <andythenorth> even if it looks terrible 19:55:15 <andythenorth> tends to produce benches on mountains 19:55:20 <andythenorth> and buildable valleys 19:56:22 <andythenorth> TGP looks a bit less silly but is a PITA to actually build on 20:08:36 <andythenorth> so which rendering app is de-rigeur these days? 20:08:45 <andythenorth> please donât tell me sketchup :( 20:16:26 <andythenorth> V453000: go on, render me one of these at 1x zoom :D http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag13/Rails-Vault/September%2026th%202013%20Items/081_zpscdd59552.jpg 20:17:27 <andythenorth> itâs just 2 cones and a cylinder, but I donât have all the lighting rig and camera and all the 3D crap :) 20:19:16 <Alberth> too many weird sites referenced from that one 20:24:09 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A196.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 20:33:19 *** DDR [~kvirc@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 20:53:59 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 21:01:02 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@46-239-219-51.tal.is] has joined #openttd 21:02:08 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:02:38 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 21:06:00 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 21:18:56 <Alberth> andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/lots_of_fishing_harbours.png a bit too close perhaps? 21:19:07 <Wolf01> nah 21:19:08 <andythenorth> interesting 21:19:16 <andythenorth> didnât know theyâd do that 21:20:04 <Alberth> plenty of space everywhere, and they clutter together :) 21:22:29 <andythenorth> silly things 21:22:50 <andythenorth> someone should fix FIRS 21:22:52 <andythenorth> full of bugs 21:24:25 <frosch123> call your next grf FOB :) 21:25:43 <andythenorth> the next one will be pipes 21:25:49 <andythenorth> pipes can be full of bugs :P 21:26:35 <Alberth> PWB (pipes with bugs) 21:26:45 <andythenorth> PDB 21:27:03 <andythenorth> Piped Bugger 21:27:23 * andythenorth is having newgrf finishing motivation issues 21:27:32 <andythenorth> anyone written a new GS yet? 21:27:37 <andythenorth> other than CashDrain? 21:29:52 <Alberth> you have a nice idea? 21:31:11 <andythenorth> not yet 21:33:12 <Alberth> k 21:33:14 <Alberth> gn 21:33:18 *** itsatacoshop247 [~itsatacos@c-76-102-167-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 21:33:57 *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 21:53:29 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.91.189] has joined #openttd 21:56:06 *** TomyLobo [~foo@ip5b417367.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Quit: Standby mode...] 21:56:53 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 22:05:32 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.91.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:06:11 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.91.189] has joined #openttd 22:08:10 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:ad81:a69:db3:47f5] has quit [Quit: .] 22:10:36 <Wolf01> nn 22:10:43 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:13:01 <argoneus> http://youtube.com/watch?v=aYVdMLBTwko 22:13:03 <argoneus> imagine being a god 22:16:50 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d01181e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 22:17:25 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:14 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 22:41:36 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3119.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/nkczDT] 22:49:26 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:06 *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@86.92.59.88] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? Visit #hydrairc on EFNet] 23:16:38 *** eadle [~eadle@host86-183-49-38.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 23:20:04 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A196.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:21:34 *** eadle [~eadle@host86-183-49-38.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:22:45 *** Jinassi [~Jinassi@0001ec72.user.oftc.net] has quit [] 23:24:07 *** Ttech [~ttech@00014919.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Este é o fim.] 23:37:52 *** liq3 [~liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 23:42:18 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6DFBF.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 23:47:07 *** Jinassi [~Jinassi@176.76.74.134] has joined #openttd