Log for #openttd on 20th January 2015:
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11:11:46  <planetmaker> o/
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11:28:00  <V453000> o/
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12:32:29  <Samu> hi
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15:22:56  <krinn> hi (back at twice my speed, my isp finally fix my speed trouble, yeah!)
15:26:02  <Samu> hi
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15:31:33  <planetmaker> krinn, wtf funky patch is that you attached to fs#6214
15:32:25  <krinn> no idea, what is funky about it?
15:33:51  <planetmaker> don't you use any version control?
15:33:53  <planetmaker> --- script_engine.hpp.old	2015-01-20 14:44:00.000000000 +0100
15:33:53  <planetmaker> +++ script_engine.hpp	2015-01-20 14:44:08.000000000 +0100
15:34:20  <krinn> ah yes, made it against 1.4.4
15:34:52  <planetmaker> you made a diff between two files. Not a modified file against its base rev.
15:35:44  <planetmaker> but nvm
15:36:38  <krinn>
15:37:02  <krinn> at line 110 in trunk
15:45:35  <krinn> planetmaker, while you are at it, i don't think the pre@ != VT_TRAIN on reliability is also good
15:46:04  <krinn> i'm checking the code to confirm (but it looks odd to not be able to get reliability of train engine)
15:48:43  <krinn> planetmaker, reliability @pre are fine, it just to discard wagons reliability
16:00:09  <krinn> is there any chance the IsRiver patch get apply one day?
16:01:53  <krinn>
16:08:36  <Samu> is frosch here?
16:09:41  <Samu> I wasn't clear with the report
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16:11:50  <Samu> What you say did match my observations. But when I tried to auto-replace engines, the two trains didn't get replaced the same way
16:12:14  <Samu> that's what I think it is bugged
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16:14:19  <Samu> I will try this again, must ninja someone's company though
16:14:30  <Samu> then i post a savegame
16:16:48  <krinn> autorenew doesn't upgrade engine
16:17:01  <krinn> autorenew is to replace old engine with the same one
16:18:51  <Samu> that's not what I see happening
16:19:02  <Samu> it works for both
16:19:11  <Samu> the minimum money part at least
16:19:18  <V453000> frosch123: the new nml compiler is awesome =D
16:19:32  <V453000> 1. no more memory errors, 2. seeing the progress of Encoding
16:19:33  <V453000> :0000
16:19:37  <V453000> awesome
16:21:34  <frosch123> :p
16:22:11  <V453000> still fuckslow when cache is empty though :P
16:22:12  <frosch123> hola btw
16:22:15  <V453000> hi :)
16:22:32  <frosch123> if i get around to it, i will finish the multicore patch for nml :)
16:22:39  <frosch123> then you can use all your cores :)
16:22:40  <V453000> :>
16:22:47  <V453000> that would be quite a bomb
16:22:55  <Samu> okay now im setting minimum money to £1,000,000 just to be REAL sure
16:22:56  <V453000> rawr is starting to take long
16:23:05  <V453000> only land/tracks for one climate atm
16:24:57  <V453000> oh and I only got rail so far XD not even mono/mag yet
16:25:02  <V453000> and I want to have at least 4 climates eventually
16:25:05  <V453000> will be wtf long :0
16:25:16  <V453000> wont I run out of memory again? XD
16:25:24  <V453000> got 32gb, guess that is supported?
16:25:36  <V453000> or how does that work now? :)
16:25:49  <frosch123> it now loads only one png at once
16:25:59  <V453000> well I only got 4 pngs :P
16:26:02  <Samu> krinn: it didn't replace to the newer model
16:26:06  <frosch123> so, your biggest png has to stay below your memory limit when uncompressed
16:26:18  <Samu> money limit error
16:26:28  <V453000> 10752x28160
16:26:31  <V453000> XD
16:26:42  <V453000> right
16:26:43  <frosch123> @calc 10*30*4
16:26:43  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 1200
16:26:52  <frosch123> 1.2 GB then
16:26:57  <V453000> cute :)
16:27:10  <V453000> the old NML was running memory errors like a boss already with that
16:27:42  <V453000> anyway, tracks coded =D just need to fix some misalignments
16:28:35  <V453000> -> home
16:28:37  <V453000> o/ :)
16:30:37  <Samu> frosch123:
16:30:44  <Samu> erm, krinn too
16:31:06  <Samu> autorenew money limit works for autoreplace
16:31:43  <frosch123> does that mean i can close the task?
16:32:29  <Samu> no, there is some issue with it
16:32:49  <Samu> krinn was saying autorenew is separare from autoreplace
16:33:15  <frosch123> the moneylimit setting is the same
16:33:19  <krinn> it is, autorenew is per company settings, this doesn't mean autoreplace is also
16:33:37  <krinn> and autoreplace limit is > autorenew
16:33:37  <frosch123> both are company things
16:33:52  <frosch123> no
16:33:57  <krinn> -> "The company needs to have more money than (autoreplace money limit) + 2 * (price for new vehicles). "
16:34:17  <krinn> even if "The auto replace money limit is the same limit as the Autorenew minimum needed money configured in Advanced Settings. "
16:35:32  <frosch123> is there "blame" for wiki?
16:35:39  <frosch123> i want to know whether that line was written before 2008
16:36:06  <krinn> that's last info from 1.0
16:36:38  <frosch123> well, it's bollocks
16:36:48  <frosch123> i do not recall it ever being like that
16:36:49  <krinn> i didn't write it :)
16:38:16  <frosch123> oh, it specifically says "ottd 1.0 and newer"?
16:38:26  <frosch123> well, it certainly does not apply for >= 0.6
16:39:48  <frosch123> yeah, someone concatenated info incorrectly
16:40:11  <krinn> i dunno but trusting it mean you need 2* price of new engine in bank + still have the bed money to keep autorenew working
16:40:22  <frosch123> the double limit existed for checking whether a vehicle need servicing
16:41:22  <frosch123> ah, sorry, the wiki is correct
16:41:31  <krinn> it might be to keep autorenew being eaten by autoreplace ; so autoreplace cannot block autorenew
16:41:33  <frosch123> krinn: you are quoting from "servicing" section
16:41:59  <frosch123> that does not trigger the autoreplace limit, it is only a pre-check whether the vehicle should be send to depot at all
16:42:27  <frosch123> the moneylimit is the same for bothj autorenew and replace, once they reach the depot
16:43:13  <Samu> ok, what I observed on yesterday's game which made me create that report was...
16:43:31  <Samu> breakdowns are off on the server, so they never service
16:43:46  <Samu> i instructed to replace the engine to the new one
16:44:04  <Samu> only my created train was replaced asap
16:44:15  <Samu> the other had to wait for my money to build up to £100,000
16:44:22  <Samu> my = company
16:45:10  <frosch123> there are multiple strategies to not send all vehicles to depot at once
16:45:21  <frosch123> so, you may have encountered one of them
16:45:47  <frosch123> there is the increased money requirement, and vehicles can only visit the depot every n days (defined by service interval)
16:45:56  <frosch123> the latter also applies if you have servicing disabled
16:46:21  <frosch123> it's supposed to prevent vehicles going to the depot all the time, if there is only money for a few
16:48:25  <Samu> while waiting for the money, it never really tried to service (no money limit error ever was displayed)
16:49:37  <Samu> i remember checking last service date, it was about 8 years away from current game date
16:49:52  <Samu> train was 7 years old, so that kinda confirms
16:50:02  <Samu> it never serviced
16:50:33  <Samu> but i can try this again, i need someone with different settings than I
16:51:00  <frosch123> start a company, leave the company, change your settings, rejoin
16:51:08  <frosch123> they should switch back on joining
16:51:20  <Samu> but that means only 1 player in the company
16:51:41  <frosch123> you can also make two companies with different settings, and switch between them
16:52:12  <frosch123> the settings are stored on the server. your client only gets them per company
16:54:45  <krinn> you can just also force all trains going to service to not wait, you won't die because some train goes servicing and couldn't be change
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16:57:44  <Samu> this is definitely strange
16:59:03  <Samu> I created my company with my autorenew settings: on, 12 months before, £0
16:59:28  <Samu> now the opposite, someone joins my company
16:59:38  <Samu> I leave
16:59:47  <Samu> company still has got that player on it
16:59:55  <Samu> I rejoin later on, and the settings are different
17:00:35  <Samu> off, 6 months after, £100,000, but he's not in it
17:00:49  <Samu> I doubt he changed them exactly to that
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17:01:30  <Samu> he left somewhere before I rejoined and after I left, am I making sense?
17:04:36  <peter1138>  /win 28
17:08:52  <Samu> I'm gonna do this again
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17:17:32  <Eddi|zuHause> /lose 29
17:18:10  <Samu> i am now absolutely sure I'm testing it right
17:18:27  <Samu> be back later with results
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19:05:09  <Alberth> hi hi
19:05:17  <Wolf01> hello o/
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19:11:34  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27123 /trunk/src/script/api (script_engine.hpp script_station.hpp) (2015-01-20 19:11:31 UTC)
19:11:35  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5371] [FS#6214]: API docs (krinn)
19:13:51  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: is fs#6216 the thing you keep on telling about variety distribution on non-rectangular maps?
19:15:40  <Eddi|zuHause> not really
19:15:41  <Alberth> isn't Eddi talking about streched mountains ?
19:15:57  <Eddi|zuHause> also, variety distribution got tweaked since i last used it
19:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i was talking about stretched mountains, which was supposedly fixed by some tiling mechanism. this is something very different
19:18:59  <Alberth> it looks like the smallest amplitude ended up at water level, filling 1/2 of the wave with water
19:19:20  <Samu> this really irks me, I can't reproduce the issues I had yesterday
19:21:52  <Samu> the engine costs £67,187, the formula is 0+2*67,187
19:22:44  <Samu> £134,374 is when the train(s) will attempt auto-replace, right?
19:23:02  <Alberth> no, they try every now and then
19:23:22  <Alberth> they don't monitor money
19:23:58  <V453000> omg Samu the person of endless problems is back
19:23:59  <Eddi|zuHause> they attempt autoreplace every time they go to depot for servicing
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19:24:21  <Alberth> in the general case, you can only find out if you can replace a vehicle by actually attempting
19:24:24  <Eddi|zuHause> just the autoreplace will fail, and they leave again without being replaced, if you don't have enough
19:24:42  <Alberth> hi hi andy, V
19:25:20  <Samu> alberth, the "now and then" is exactly how?
19:25:31  <Samu> they're not even trying
19:26:09  <Alberth> depends on your servicing settings
19:26:20  <Eddi|zuHause> if breakdowns are disabled, they never try to autorenew, only autoreplace
19:26:27  <Samu> they're default, 150 days, breakdowns are disabled
19:26:30  <Samu> yes that
19:27:03  <Eddi|zuHause> also, they don't go to depot if the depot is too far away
19:27:23  <Alberth> have a depot in the orders?  then they also don't look for a depot
19:27:23  <Samu> depot is really close to both trains
19:27:30  <Samu> no depot in orders
19:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the depot may be "too far away" if the track reservation is very long
19:27:58  <andythenorth> o/
19:28:15  <Eddi|zuHause> because once the track is reserved, it cannot be deviated from
19:28:18  <Alberth> where "very long" can also mean many signals
19:28:41  <Samu> no signals, it's a very simple route, both of them
19:28:46  <Samu> each with 1 depot
19:29:00  <Samu> about 25 tiles distant
19:29:22  <Alberth> you're replacing to a different model, right?
19:29:49  <Samu> yes
19:30:01  <Samu> ok, small problem with one of the routes i have, it's not electrified
19:30:14  <Samu> darn, i ruined the test
19:30:46  <andythenorth> where is cat?
19:30:58  <Eddi|zuHause> miau.
19:31:02  <Alberth> sleeping
19:32:24  <Samu> if I now loan £500,000 will I see both trains auto-replace?
19:32:48  <Samu> hmm, well i'm still gonna wait for £100,000 - it's slowly building up
19:33:28  <Alberth> save, try, load save game
19:34:10  <Samu> I can't exactly do that for this testing
19:34:19  <Samu> there's 2 players in the company
19:34:29  <Samu> that's the purpose of my testings
19:37:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess your whole test is based on a misconception, rather than an actual bug
19:37:23  <NGC3982> !imdb into the woods
19:37:32  <NGC3982> Oh my. Wrong channel.
19:37:48  <andythenorth> he
19:37:59  <V453000> cat says rawr loudly, cant you hear it
19:38:17  <Eddi|zuHause> must be a big cat.
19:38:22  <Alberth> it just wants food
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19:38:52  <andythenorth> cat needs to do my tax return
19:39:08  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a study that found that cats' purring operates at a frequency that induces bone growth
19:39:14  <Alberth> not sure you'd get much returned then :)
19:40:09  <NGC3982> Eddi: Fascinating.
19:40:42  <Wolf01> I read that too
19:40:49  <NGC3982> In the world of Bill Bryson: "That evolution thing is remarkable. It can't therefor be true by all scientific means".
19:41:43  * andythenorth has forgotten why evolution isn’t considered a scientifically valid theory
19:41:48  <NGC3982> I just listened trough A short history of nearly everything. Everyone should read it.
19:46:13  <Samu> so far, neither train attempted to service
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19:46:33  <Samu> that's a long enough time for "now and then"
19:47:13  <Samu> still under £100k,but over £70k
19:47:24  <frosch123> maybe your testcase is too complex :)
19:47:39  <Samu> eddi might be right
19:53:20  <Samu> I'm at £100k
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19:54:01  <Samu> looks like £134k will be when the trains attempt auto-replace, so there goes the bug
19:54:08  <Samu> there is no bug
19:55:25  <V453000> Samu why dont you just play the game? :D
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19:55:44  <Samu> i was doing something else
19:56:04  <V453000> also, baldys boss is  the biggest boss of the day
19:56:19  <Samu>
19:56:24  <Samu> writting that thing
19:56:47  <V453000> What I meant was, why dont you play the game instead of asking about every stupid detail of it. :)
20:00:15  <andythenorth> baldy’s boss is boos
20:00:19  <andythenorth> boos?
20:00:20  <andythenorth> boss
20:00:22  * andythenorth is not boss
20:00:27  * andythenorth is lame
20:01:38  * andythenorth is shirking tax returns
20:01:39  <andythenorth> bah
20:01:50  <andythenorth> I have been playing a game
20:01:57  <andythenorth> it’s called OpenTTD
20:02:01  <andythenorth> you should all try it
20:02:22  <Samu> very close to £134k
20:03:59  <V453000> XD
20:04:08  <V453000> this channel is getting awesome by the second
20:04:18  <V453000>  /working on monorail model :>
20:05:01  <Samu> train 1 is replaced, bug debunked... is not a bug, ok sorry all :(
20:05:08  <andythenorth> monorial? o_O
20:05:14  <andythenorth> is that a kind of zellepin?
20:05:14  <Samu> you may close the bug report frosch123
20:05:47  <V453000> andythenerdth and the bi-rail horses and stuff :P
20:05:51  <V453000> need moar futurizm
20:05:57  <V453000> community demands it
20:06:24  <Alberth> some of it :)
20:06:43  <andythenorth> some of it
20:06:59  * andythenorth considers futurisms
20:07:03  <andythenorth> never did figure it ou
20:07:04  <andythenorth> out *
20:07:39  <V453000> xd
20:07:39  <Eddi|zuHause> a "bi-rail" is just a regular rail?
20:07:42  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
20:07:44  <V453000> yes!
20:07:59  <V453000> I just called it that way to make monorail seem more normal :P
20:08:27  <krinn> oh, nothing about loving both gender so
20:09:59  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
20:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: might be a "di-rail"
20:10:25  <V453000>  /CARE XD
20:12:04  <Eddi|zuHause> like in "di-hydrogen-mon-oxide"
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20:13:14  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise it would need to be a "uni-rail"
20:14:46  <V453000> I hereby declare it ass-rail
20:16:21  <krinn> just need to build shittytrain to run on it then
20:17:19  * Eddi|zuHause wonders why that's not already in NUTS
20:19:06  <frosch123> my cellphone has a year 2015 bug
20:19:51  <frosch123> it does accept the year 2015 as valid date, i guess i run it on 2014 then :p
20:20:11  <frosch123> *not
20:20:24  <Alberth> lol
20:21:10  <frosch123> i guess the manufacturer assumed that noone would run the same cellphone for 7 years
20:28:58  *** Rubidium_ is now known as Rubidium
20:29:07  <Rubidium> sounds like the same manufacturer that used (year % 10) in (0, 4, 8) for leap years
20:30:32  <Samu> Why can't I place signals on bridge headers
20:30:33  <frosch123> should be fine if you bought it in 1987
20:30:44  <Samu> just wondering
20:31:03  <frosch123> er,, 1999
20:31:24  <Alberth> Samu: bridges don't exist, they are just a visual illusion
20:31:50  <frosch123> i believe there is a patch on the forums for that
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20:32:02  <Samu> just the header, not the bridge tile
20:32:09  <Samu> the ramp
20:32:10  <frosch123> signals on bridge heads is still easier than signals on bridge
20:33:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the problem with signals on bridge heads was that a train on the bridge ignores a signal on the exit, because it doesn't enter a new tile
20:35:58  <krinn> if you can't build signal on the bridge itself, there no real need for signal on bridge head anyway, a lot of pain to get 1 tile
20:36:48  <Eddi|zuHause> au contraire. a lot is gained by that one tile already
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20:37:04  <krinn> i don't see how
20:37:12  <Eddi|zuHause> like in a city you can make the tunnels longer
20:37:28  <Eddi|zuHause> tunnel-signal-station-signal-tunnel
20:37:59  <frosch123> i set it to 2009, then the weekday is correct
20:38:04  <Eddi|zuHause> if you can reduce that from 8 tiles to 6, it is a lot
20:38:33  <andythenorth> yes
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20:40:19  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, i don't get it, if you can do tunnel-signal-station, you can do bridge-signal-station
20:40:44  <krinn> can we do singal at start of tunnel now?
20:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> tunnel entrance is the same as bridge head
20:42:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you could place on a bridge head, you could also place on a tunnel entrance
20:46:03  <krinn> well, if you do bridge head signal, people will ask looping next, better keep the bridge head signal query for a while (or code openttdcoster soon)
20:46:37  <frosch123> it's called freerct
20:47:22  <Alberth> /me wakes up
20:47:25  <krinn> but it do like rct not like ttd+rct
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20:47:35  <frosch123> i guess to increase the hamming distance and avoid confusion
20:47:56  <frosch123> Alberth: your /me is still broken :p
20:48:11  <Alberth> not here
20:48:14  <Samu> signals on tunnels would be cool too
20:48:27  * krinn thinks alberth /me is broken too
20:49:21  <Samu> how would a road vehicle know that there is another vehicle inside the tunnel?
20:49:43  <Alberth>
20:49:49  <Alberth> but it is in the log
20:49:52  <Alberth> weird
20:50:15  * andythenorth had a broken /me recently too
20:50:20  <andythenorth> dunno what fixed it
20:51:25  <Samu> you managed to make train stations also act as they have a signal in them
20:52:09  <andythenorth> is that a misconception?
20:52:14  <Alberth> unlikely, broken /me hasn't that much power
20:52:18  <andythenorth> I often think stations have signals in, but they don’t, right?
20:52:31  <Alberth> they don't indeed
20:52:33  <Samu> I dunno, but they interact fine when I use path signals
20:52:33  <andythenorth> just train won’t try to reserve path until leaving?
20:52:59  <Alberth> if turning around, yes
20:53:09  <Alberth> if not turning around, it still has a path
20:53:15  <andythenorth> I always explicitly path signal stations, am I wasting my time?
20:53:16  <andythenorth> :)
20:53:25  <andythenorth> 1 tile at each exit, with a signal facing the station
20:54:03  <Alberth> with roro, it makes the reserved path end at the end of the station platform, no waste of time
20:55:03  <Alberth> with terminus, it's not needed, although there is a difference. If you add a signal, the train will turn, reserve upto the signal, and when arriving at the signal, reserve a path further
20:55:18  <Alberth> without signal, it first reserves a path before moving at all
20:55:33  <andythenorth> so shorter travel distance
20:55:39  <andythenorth> between blocks
20:55:44  <Alberth> also, with a signal, it looks prettier :)
20:55:44  <andythenorth> but more space needed per station
20:55:47  <andythenorth> yes
20:56:26  <Alberth> I prefer to have 1 straight track from the platform anyway, so no extra space
20:57:08  <andythenorth>,%2006-10-1910.png
20:57:29  <andythenorth> oh I forgot to signal the north-most station :o
20:59:06  <andythenorth> ho,%2006-10-1910%232.png
20:59:12  <andythenorth> because normal rail and narrow gauge
21:00:40  <V453000> not like the difference is actually well visible XD
21:00:55  <Alberth> north-most station should not be a problem, although you may want to move the two-way path signal just north of the junction
21:00:56  <krinn> 2nd picture looks more like a carrier than a railnetwork
21:00:58  <V453000> nyway, monorail dun
21:01:10  <Alberth> looking GOOD ?
21:01:47  <peter1138> That double-size UI...
21:01:55  <V453000> idk waiting for rendering tomorrow :P
21:02:09  <V453000> for now, gnight
21:02:13  <Alberth> gnight V
21:02:32  <krinn> night V453000
21:02:55  <Alberth> dream lovely monorail dreams :)
21:06:17  <andythenorth> peter1138: 2x UI ftw
21:06:19  <andythenorth> innit
21:08:17  <Alberth> gn
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21:32:04  <Samu> have you considered a global chat server in openttd?
21:33:38  <Samu> ppl would be able to chat in it
21:33:54  <Samu> no matter which game they have joined, they would always be connected to that chat
21:34:09  <andythenorth> we could troll without having to play the game
21:34:12  <andythenorth> would be awesome
21:35:08  <Samu> so it's a bad idea
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21:35:49  <krinn> it exist already, i think it's named #openttd
21:36:21  <Samu> no, not this
21:38:16  <Samu> to have the game itself always joining the same chat channel
21:38:28  <Samu> as a choice
21:38:46  <Samu> arg, i suck at explaining things
21:38:59  <glx> there was a wrapper doing that
21:39:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, admin port can forward chat to a channel
21:39:42  <planetmaker> g'evening
21:39:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so several servers could agree to forward to the same channel
21:39:52  <planetmaker> reddit servers do that with chat forwarding
21:40:36  <Samu> what is the server which we retrieve the list of games?
21:40:44  <Samu> the chat would be built upon that
21:41:00  <Eddi|zuHause> if you build it, they will come.
21:41:03  <planetmaker> oh no. That's not the purpose of the master server
21:41:44  <planetmaker> using soap with admin port you could do that already now within an arbitrary irc channel
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21:42:14  <planetmaker> thus I don't think it's needed
21:42:28  <Samu> soap?
21:42:41  <planetmaker> an admin port client
21:43:41  <Samu> ah, i see, I'm searching, yeah, that could be it
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21:45:49  <andythenorth> hmm
21:45:51  <andythenorth> I dunno
21:46:01  <andythenorth> managing replacing vehicles is a faff
21:46:20  <andythenorth> ‘create group from vehicles with this shared order’
21:46:46  <andythenorth> might be a more useful version of ‘find vehicle by number (in list of several hundred), create new group drag vehicle to group, add shared vehicles'
21:47:18  <Samu> I see, each individual server would forward chat to one irc server?
21:47:24  <andythenorth> also, filter train list by ‘trains containing vehicle type x'
21:47:34  <Samu> why not just have everyone connect directly to that irc server instead?
21:47:49  <Samu> independent of server
21:48:08  <glx> because not everybody want this
21:48:30  <Samu> okay, trolls are bad then
21:50:13  <andythenorth> apart from nobody plays, it would be really noisy
21:50:20  <andythenorth> also what would they talk about?
21:50:26  <andythenorth> all playing different games
21:50:35  <andythenorth> so the chat would be full of non-useful chat :)
21:51:04  <Samu> they would have the ability to chose to where to chat to
21:51:19  <Samu> shift+enter, ctrl+enter, hmm alt+enter...
21:51:20  <Samu> dunno
21:51:39  <Samu> and could toggle that chat off or on somewhere in settings
21:52:22  <glx> already used for global and team chat IIRC
21:57:35  <frosch123> Samu: stop reinventing the wheel
21:57:41  <Samu> :(
21:57:41  <Samu> ok
21:57:50  <frosch123> there is no point in every piece of software having all functions
21:57:58  <frosch123> openttd will not get a harddisk backup option
21:58:08  <frosch123> and no spreadsheet application
21:58:16  <frosch123> just run a separate chat and music software
21:58:21  <krinn> speaking about systemd?
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22:13:22  <FLHerne> I quite like systemd having all functions
22:13:46  <deniz1a> hello. is there a way to show the catchment area of existing stations?
22:13:50  <FLHerne> It saves me having to care about anything that isn't systemd, since those things are almost always less nice to deal with
22:14:07  <FLHerne> deniz1a: No, unless it got added and I haven't noticed yet
22:14:14  <deniz1a> oh ok
22:14:16  <planetmaker> deniz1a, unfortunately no(t that I know)
22:14:28  <frosch123> deniz1a: no, it's obfuscated because the game mechanics are so arbitrary there :)
22:14:28  <deniz1a> ok thanks
22:14:33  <planetmaker> besides there's two definitions of catchment area - which makes it somewhat difficult to add :)
22:15:00  <frosch123> yeah, adding a visualisation would certainly come along with making them more sane :)
22:15:11  <planetmaker>
22:15:21  <frosch123> i think someone even had a patch for that, juanjo probably
22:15:32  <frosch123> is that his name? nor sure
22:15:33  <planetmaker> there was one... dunno by whom
22:15:40  <krinn> denizla: for that i use the build a new station tool and put it over the one i want to get its area
22:15:41  <planetmaker> it's a valid name of a contributor, yes
22:15:55  <deniz1a> when you join different stations, the area between them is also added to the catchment area, right?
22:16:08  <planetmaker> depends :) Read the wiki page
22:16:23  <frosch123> anyway, the patch stored the catchment area as bitmask-matrix in the station struct, so was efficient
22:16:33  <deniz1a> ok thanks
22:16:40  <planetmaker> hm, why didn't we use it then, frosch123 ? :)
22:17:07  <frosch123> it's probably burried in the todo list somewhere :)
22:17:34  <krinn> next to IsWaterTile? :)
22:17:50  <krinn> IsRiverTile
22:17:58  <frosch123> i digged up krinn's nov 2012 patch earlier today from it :p
22:18:00  <deniz1a> i use zbase+pineapple trains+grvts32 and the game looks awesome :)
22:18:10  <frosch123> looked for api doc fixes :p
22:18:45  <planetmaker> dig dug dug?
22:19:05  <planetmaker> hehe
22:19:36  <krinn> it was "dig dig dug" no ?
22:19:44  <NGC3982> Thank you jesus for this grub.
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22:21:32  <planetmaker> dig dug dug or dig digged digged :)
22:21:48  <krinn> frosch123, i think someone made a more recent version from forum
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22:23:23  <krinn>
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22:38:48  <krinn> never really check but what the "sea level" option do on map creation?
22:39:07  <frosch123> percentage of sea
22:39:14  <frosch123> islands vs. all-land
22:39:44  <krinn> you mean % of sea area vs land area?
22:39:49  <frosch123> yes
22:40:20  * andythenorth did a silly thing, splitting SGBT / SGCN by economy :P
22:40:25  <andythenorth> by climate rather
22:40:33  <andythenorth> now I have to special case all my generated docs :D
22:40:41  <andythenorth> silly andythenorth
22:40:46  <krinn> frosch123, so water is always at level 1?
22:40:58  <frosch123> level 0 :p
22:41:06  <krinn> lol yeah 0
22:41:14  <frosch123> there are some patches on the forums with water depths
22:41:34  <krinn> oh shitty, so we could detect river vs sea as river couldn't be 0 then!
22:41:42  <frosch123> but they have the problem that flooding over multiple levels is weird
22:41:47  <Samu> speaking of water
22:41:52  <frosch123> krinn: untrue
22:42:00  <frosch123> boith rivers and canals can be at level 0
22:42:01  <FLHerne> krinn: River can be 0, sea doesn't flood river
22:42:23  <Samu> nevermind... i rather not ask
22:42:26  <frosch123> anyway, the whole issue with the api functions is that they behave so inconsistently
22:42:29  <FLHerne> I don't think the map generator does it, but scenarios might
22:42:44  <frosch123> a ship depot tile is a ship depot tile, but it is a canal/river/sea tile at the same time
22:42:58  <krinn> from what i see, river "falls" into sea
22:43:00  <frosch123> similar for tree tiles, vs. land/coast tiles
22:43:25  <frosch123> krinn: the generated rivers behave like that, but scenedit can do other things
22:43:38  <Samu> are you forbidding river destruction?
22:43:40  <frosch123> can you can use canals in game to stop flooding, and build at level 0
22:43:49  <planetmaker> krinn, yet you can have at lv0 have river and canal tiles. They are not flooded as they're already water
22:44:01  <krinn> well, it mean AI can detect river except with scenario but using current API still no?
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22:44:26  <planetmaker> it's a common way to build rail tracks at lv0, frosch123 :)
22:45:24  <krinn> if i see a water tile, i could assume if height >= 1 it's a river
22:45:38  <planetmaker> or a canal
22:45:48  <Samu> it would be cool if river tiles were undestructible by any means
22:45:50  <krinn> canal aren't a problem you can detect canal tile
22:46:03  <planetmaker> krinn, and at height 0 it might still be a river or canal with slope
22:46:14  <planetmaker> thus coast
22:47:14  <krinn> tbh, mistaking river and sea on coast is less a problem, you know it will cost you a lot
22:48:23  <Samu> could the river generator be a bit more lock friendly? locks take 1x3 tiles, and the rivers sometimes make a turn right away after the ramp
22:48:41  <andythenorth> hmm
22:48:48  <andythenorth> FIRS fruit plantation is ugly
22:48:50  <andythenorth> maybe I could fix it
22:49:36  <andythenorth> also bedtime
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22:49:50  <krinn> but ability to find a tile with water is just a river and not some fine water area imply diff cost: river can be clear, water couldn't
22:50:18  <krinn> well, water could, but remain there after clear (only wasting money)
22:51:34  <Samu> oh krinn, u got a nice idea
22:51:49  <Samu> rivers should be water :p
22:51:55  <Samu> u destroy it, it refils
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22:53:14  <krinn> yeah sure, and why not wind generator to sea where a tree will fall when clear?
22:53:42  <krinn>  /ssea/see (too much see/sea)
22:54:31  <Samu> is it a bad suggestion?
22:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:54:53  <Samu> hmm, can't see why
22:55:21  <krinn> we knows, that's why it's bad
22:57:09  <frosch123> night
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22:57:31  <Samu> would be bad for the AI?
22:58:43  <Samu> AI building a rail piece on a cleared river tile that would eventually be flodded with water later on?
22:58:50  <Samu> flood
23:00:26  <krinn> it could happen already, i don't think any AI check it build on level 0
23:07:46  <Samu> brb
23:09:39  <Samu> trying to familiarize with the area names
23:10:53  <Samu> upon land area information on a Coast tile, it comes up with 'Coast or riverbank'
23:11:10  <Samu> a waterfall tile says: "River"
23:13:08  <Samu> lake tiles are also 'river', hmm, ok. So clearing a lake tile will not cause it to refill with water. Is that intended?
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23:14:25  <krinn> yes
23:16:21  <Samu> I was suggesting that 'river' tiles would refill with water, if adjacent with 'water' tiles
23:17:08  <Samu> but I can see there could be an issue with lakes
23:17:36  <Samu> upon lake generation, these tiles are not connected to 'water' tiles
23:18:31  <krinn> river are candy eyes, any change to that status would mean openttd have to do work with them for special case: what do you prefer having 100 cars running in your game before your cpu is dead or 3 cars only because openttd keep handling things nobody cares?
23:21:33  <Samu> I don't undestand the difference
23:21:43  <Samu> there's tons of water already
23:23:43  <Samu> is it because water flooding can't go up terrain levels? there's only a few rivers in comparison to the amount of 'water' tiles
23:25:31  <krinn> can only flood at level0, but without checking code, i'm sure if any river is set at level0, the river will endup flooded too, i don't think anyone cares to preserved a rivertile from flooding
23:26:05  <Flygon_> All this talk of water
23:26:10  <Flygon_> Makes me wish water depth was a thing
23:26:12  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
23:26:27  <Flygon> Kinda wishing terrain height came in signed integers
23:26:27  <Flygon> :P
23:26:43  <planetmaker> Flygon, easy to add by adding a sea_level_height
23:26:54  <planetmaker> treat everything  below as sea
23:27:12  <Flygon> You just gave me a bitchin' idea
23:27:21  <Flygon> Atlantis terrain type
23:27:29  <Flygon> Aircraft are submarines :D
23:27:41  <Flygon> Can't have electric trains, so
23:27:45  <krinn> yeah, and next idea would be typhon event!
23:27:47  <Flygon> They'll be phenumatically powered
23:27:53  <Wolf01> 'night
23:27:59  <Flygon> 'night, man
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23:28:02  <Flygon> Also I want a Phen Card
23:28:04  <Flygon> B> Phen Card
23:28:15  <Flygon> 1m
23:29:41  <krinn> wish someone made submarine able to sink other players ships, so my AI can seek & destroy
23:30:28  <Samu> arg I wish i could explain things clearer
23:31:25  <Flygon> (Atlantis's 'oceans' would be 'Abysses' in the ocean floor)
23:31:57  <Samu> a river tile boundary, the sides of a river so to speak, can't this limit where the flood goes to?
23:32:00  <planetmaker> krinn, that's against the project mission :)
23:32:14  <Flygon> I'd love if water
23:32:15  <Flygon> Could, say
23:32:19  <Flygon> Be multi-leveled
23:32:21  <Flygon> As in...
23:32:23  <Flygon> Ocean styled water
23:32:29  <Flygon> So we can have rivers with diagonal tiles
23:32:30  <krinn> planetmaker, yeah, but it would be soooooo evil and cool
23:32:32  <supermop> i'd love if a game would let me start in july rather than january
23:32:43  <Flygon> You'd rather start a game in Winter?
23:33:05  <Samu> meh, I guess I give up
23:33:22  <krinn> planetmaker, and gives AI ability to call the chopper and gave it the target instead of that poor ufo :)
23:33:32  <planetmaker> :D
23:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yeh, just make an inverse snowline height grf
23:33:44  <supermop> if you play with a northern hemisphere mindset, which I assume many do, all of your potential farmland may be covered in snow at map creation
23:33:52  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, tsunami-height grf? :D
23:34:08  <supermop> so you have to wait for farms to start spawning
23:34:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that is a game feature :p
23:34:32  <planetmaker> supermop, use ogfx+landscape and set snowline height accordingly. You can choose summer in January
23:34:35  <supermop> and can't place them in SE
23:34:48  <supermop> planetmaker: what if i want summer in july
23:34:54  <Flygon> I play with a Southern Hemisphere mindset
23:34:59  <supermop> but also want to place farms in scenario editor
23:35:00  <Flygon> Also when I play a European or American map
23:35:03  <planetmaker> then choose snowline accordingly...
23:35:04  <Flygon> I place cars on the left
23:35:15  <Samu> arf... gonna paintbush some river tiles, be right back, maybe then it will be clearer
23:35:20  <Flygon> I simply can't build a road network trying to remember that interchanges need to be built a non_Australian way x.x
23:35:25  <supermop> but farms should stilll be snowwy in winter
23:36:04  <krinn> (i think we're half way to get the "we need rain" query)
23:36:08  <supermop> basically just the ability to set current month in SE would help a lot
23:36:29  <planetmaker> supermop, you can't have it simply run a few months?
23:36:47  <supermop> the editor date doesnt change if you leave it unpaused
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23:37:43  <supermop> you would have to start game, let it run 6 mo, save then edit again
23:38:18  <krinn> going bed before samu ask cops to tickets speeding cars
23:38:19  <supermop> not impossible but certainly odd and then you have a company already in your scenario
23:38:20  <krinn> night
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23:38:47  <planetmaker> supermop, ah, yes. Though you can delete the company again
23:39:51  <supermop> seems like there would have been enough maniacs playing canadian games to have requested this already...
23:40:43  <supermop> let alone midwestern americans, russians, and anyone else who lives where the lowlands are snowcovered in winter
23:41:26  <supermop> Flygon: for australian games what point does snow serve? I've never seen snow here
23:42:36  <Flygon> supermop: Seriously?
23:42:41  <Flygon> I live like
23:42:44  <Flygon> 20 minutes from where it snows
23:42:48  <Flygon> And I live in Sunbury. :|
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23:49:37  <supermop> almost done placing all rivers on this Oahu map
23:49:43  <supermop> its been about a week
23:50:24  <supermop> just onee more small basin in the north west to do
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23:53:35  <supermop> ok
23:53:52  <supermop> too bad by now i have no desire to play this thing
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