Log for #openttd on 23rd January 2015:
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00:03:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't quite understand it. NewGRFs can have cases, so why shouldn't GameScripts?
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00:51:42  <Supercheese> a good question indeed...
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07:44:29  <andythenorth> o/
07:48:07  <Supercheese> greeble is apparently now a verb
07:48:20  <andythenorth> oops
07:48:25  <andythenorth> I’ve verbised a noun?
07:49:03  * andythenorth needs a Vehicle Plant
07:49:17  <andythenorth> V453000: should I put yours in from YETI?  Looks very FIRS-style, no?
07:49:43  <Supercheese> 'Go ahead, greeble my day.'
07:53:41  <andythenorth> unless your day is an unrelieved plane, or low number of intersecting unrelieved planes, it is already greebled ;)
07:54:56  <Supercheese> Greeble the World™
07:55:30  <andythenorth> Vehicle Factory. Accepts: Metal, Vehicle Parts; Produces: Goods, Engineering Supplies
07:55:39  <andythenorth> sound good?
07:55:52  <andythenorth> dunno if it should accept a third cargo.  Not petrol
07:56:08  <andythenorth> maybe MNSP, but tends to have overlapping sources with Vehicle Parts
07:56:08  <Supercheese> Hmm no glass in FIRS
07:56:27  <andythenorth> Glass is Building Materials, Goods, MNSP or Vehicle Parts
07:56:34  <Supercheese> yeah
07:56:47  <andythenorth> I considered Tyres, but they’re Vehicle Parts
07:56:55  <andythenorth> I considered Chemicals (paint)
07:57:44  <andythenorth> that is consistent with two other metal industries
07:57:51  <andythenorth> but eh, consistency :P
07:57:57  <Supercheese> if chemicals, it would have a low conversion ratio
07:58:39  <Supercheese> also, what economy? Full FIRS?
07:58:50  <andythenorth> Tropic Basic
07:58:57  <andythenorth> Full FIRS is full
07:59:06  <Supercheese> indeed
08:00:32  <Supercheese> well, chemicals would otherwise only go to Ports for export, no?
08:00:39  <Supercheese> so adding a domestic pathway would be nice
08:01:10  <Supercheese> unless something has changed since the nightly I have grabbed
08:01:15  <Supercheese> which is entirely possible
08:06:44  <Supercheese> ah, indeed yet no domestic pathway for chemicals, so +1 to vehicle factory accepting them
08:14:55  <andythenorth> ok
08:33:12  <supermop> andy should just make a second industry set
08:35:12  <planetmaker> moi
08:37:30  <Supercheese> tu
08:37:50  <andythenorth> supermop: probably will at some point
08:38:14  <Supercheese> FIRS is already like 5 industry sets
08:38:23  <andythenorth> got some tweaks to FIRS, want to add some more economies, then freeze it as ‘working and finished’
08:38:27  <andythenorth> then do a new one
08:40:27  <supermop> really just need a way for people to cobble together the occasional new economy
08:40:44  <andythenorth> it’s non-trivial currently
08:40:49  <andythenorth> due to reasons
08:40:59  <andythenorth> dunno if new set would be new, or just FIRS 2.0
08:41:08  <andythenorth> depends if there’s any radical new concepts
08:41:13  <supermop> the black holes and offshore industries a a good way to patch up an otherwise niche idea that someone may want for a particular circumstance
08:41:29  <andythenorth> changing the name makes it easier to break old behaviours without upsetting people
08:41:37  <supermop> indeed
08:41:47  <supermop> thats the best part
08:42:54  <andythenorth> the flip side is, I have no radical new concepts yet
08:42:57  <andythenorth> so, eh
08:43:00  <andythenorth> anyway gtg
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08:43:02  <supermop> i bet pikka could have saved himself some complaints from some people if the last nars was just called "nars-inspired"
08:43:45  <supermop> firs needs some pointless detours thrown in
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09:08:51  <qwffffffff> can someone answer a quick question, does delivery time take into account the time when waiting for 100% load?
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11:17:45  <planetmaker> hi hi
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11:37:53  <andythenorth> lo planetmaker
11:40:58  <planetmaker> o/ :)
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11:56:33  <argoneus> \o
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12:20:33  <TELK> Hello, thanks for yesterday (or today maybe), Whom should I ask to if my site's IP is blocked/banned by
12:22:47  <peter1138> Why do you think it's blocked?
12:24:00  <TELK> Because I was tend to fetch by PHP's curl or fsockopen but it doesn't work
12:26:28  <planetmaker> TELK, we don't block anyone accessing
12:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> so, have you tried non-php ways of accessing, and what sort of error messages do you get?
12:27:19  <planetmaker> run a normal curl without php for instance to check
12:27:30  <planetmaker> from command line
12:27:39  <TELK> like a shell?
12:27:43  <andythenorth> like a shell
12:27:47  <planetmaker> like a shell
12:27:50  <andythenorth> like a boss
12:28:09  <TELK> I tried but it didn't work, too.
12:28:47  <peter1138> What does "didn't work" mean?
12:29:00  <TELK> It returns connection timeout.
12:29:14  <Eddi|zuHause> and a traceroute?
12:29:51  <andythenorth> paste the command you’re using
12:30:11  <TELK> Sorry, now it works.... what happened :(
12:30:31  <andythenorth> connection timeout?
12:30:39  <andythenorth> I would guess
12:30:50  <planetmaker> connection timeout is also not what you get for being banned :)
12:30:53  <planetmaker> usually
12:32:15  <TELK> thx for your help, I couldn't find what was a problem yesterday eventually...
12:32:30  <TELK> but now it works.... what the world....
12:32:31  <Eddi|zuHause> someone secretly lifted the ban to make you look stupid :p
12:33:07  <V453000> wat up andythenorth
12:33:20  <V453000> vehicle plant from yeti? too many pixels? :P
12:33:51  <andythenorth> V453000: definitely FIRS style eh?
12:34:10  * andythenorth considers special treatement of ground sprites in FIRS
12:34:17  <andythenorth> so that invisible reveals yetis
12:34:22  <V453000> idk what to imagine with FIRS style :P
12:34:27  <andythenorth> treatment *
12:34:32  <V453000> :)
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12:36:43  <TELK> Thanks for all of you, bye :)
12:37:11  <TELK> espacially to planetmaker :D:D
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12:41:50  <__ln__> ok, he's gone, you can re-ban now
12:43:32  <peter1138> :D
12:45:20  <planetmaker> :) psst, __ln__
12:57:08  <V453000> got a new keyboard =D time to write documentation about RAWR
12:57:09  <V453000> :)
12:58:37  <Eddi|zuHause> new keyboards are terrible, no key is where it used to be :p
12:59:56  <V453000> exactly
13:00:03  <V453000> I have the one where everything is where it used to be . :)
13:00:09  <V453000> :P
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13:01:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not speaking about the keyboard layout, i'm speaking about keys being some miniscule distance away, so you don't hit them
13:01:54  <V453000> wat
13:02:20  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you type by one-finger-search-system :p
13:05:30  <andythenorth> that is the best way
13:05:39  <andythenorth> fewere errors
13:06:11  <V453000> idk I feel like keys are still the same distance apart :D
13:06:29  <V453000> esp this one with the more traditional layouts
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13:32:10  <Eddi|zuHause> idk either, whenever i get a new keyboard, even if it's the same model as before, i need an adjustment time, until my muscle memory adapts
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14:05:49  <andythenorth> V453000: also Iron Works can’t be built after 1901, shall I remove that restriction (for player funding only, preventing game building it)
14:05:56  <andythenorth> ?
14:11:45  <planetmaker> that would be nice :)
14:11:55  <planetmaker> or at least wouldn't hurt, I think
14:12:40  <andythenorth> I think restricting player building has costs, with not many upsides
14:12:47  <andythenorth> mostly imposing a not useful realism
14:13:20  <planetmaker> yeah. It costs nothing to not build it, if you don't like it. And the game won't force it onto you, if you play realistically. Thus +1
14:19:51  <V453000> indeed
14:19:58  <V453000> good move
14:20:51  <andythenorth> I wonder if that solves broken chains where some industries have intro dates set?
14:20:59  <andythenorth> game won’t build them, but player can always build?
14:21:10  <V453000> yeah thats nice
14:21:14  <andythenorth> so if you want fertiliser plant in 1492, you have to build one
14:21:18  <V453000> what bout biorefinery? :P
14:21:21  <V453000> ah right
14:21:22  <V453000> nice
14:21:31  <V453000> that is very good
14:21:35  <andythenorth> biorefinery too?
14:21:38  <V453000> well sure
14:21:40  <andythenorth> all
14:21:43  <V453000> it is what makes farms self-reproduce
14:21:48  <V453000> all would be best :P
14:21:58  <andythenorth> all
14:22:02  <andythenorth> or stupid parameter?
14:22:06  <andythenorth> dunno how people want server play
14:22:09  <V453000> pfft
14:22:15  <andythenorth> I nearly said ruder word
14:22:21  <andythenorth> I bet most parameters never get set
14:22:25  <andythenorth> nor even looked at
14:22:33  <V453000> they can increase the costs of industry funding if they so desire
14:22:54  <andythenorth> they can use FIRS 1.3.0 if they so desire
14:23:08  <V453000> XD topo
14:23:11  <V453000> too
14:31:13  <Belugas> hello
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14:40:14  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I bet most parameters never get set <-- if you go by that logic, NewGRFs are practically not used at all.
14:40:37  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the universe is practically empty.
14:41:12  <andythenorth> this is a good counter point
14:41:20  <andythenorth> but parameters have quite a cost
14:41:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that said, i don't think the previous discussion warrants a parameter
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14:43:23  <planetmaker> nice new harbours
14:44:51  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you wouldn’t mind if you could fund industries at unrealistic dates?
14:45:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't usually fund industries
14:47:23  <V453000> how do I apply a static newgrf?
14:47:26  <V453000> (:
14:47:43  <__ln__> "i don't usually ..., but when i do, __________________"?
14:48:21  <V453000> andythenorth: ports are nice but they seem still very similar to me :P looks good though
14:48:31  <andythenorth> need more slugs
14:48:36  <V453000> .
14:48:40  <planetmaker> V453000, edit openttd.cfg
14:48:48  <V453000> well sure but what do I put there? :)
14:48:53  <V453000> I found newgrf-static section
14:49:11  <V453000> I did put there newgrf\RAWR.grf and it didnt like it
14:49:18  <planetmaker> activate as normal newgrf, exit openttd, look at the newgrf section and move the line to newgrf-static section
14:49:23  <V453000> xd
14:49:33  <planetmaker> and do not use \ but use /
14:50:07  <planetmaker> and make sure it's actually a newgrf which *can* be used static ;)
14:50:09  <V453000> yay it works \o/
14:50:10  <V453000> :)
14:50:24  <V453000> rawr so fabulous
14:51:03  <V453000> SNAILS EVERYWHERE :D bloody FIRS farms
14:54:53  <Eddi|zuHause>
14:55:12  <andythenorth> also what about the realisms?
14:55:21  <andythenorth> V453000: bloody FIRS
14:55:31  <andythenorth> sounds good though
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15:57:29  <deniz1a> hello, is it possible to adjust cargo ratings of the game?
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15:57:56  <deniz1a> like you can adjust building costs with basecosts mod
15:59:20  <deniz1a> and can you change the ingame day to an hour for example?
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16:00:20  <Samu> hi
16:00:40  <Samu> I have 2 questions~
16:01:09  <Samu> i am trying to host a 4096x4096 game but it takes 32 MBytes for someone to join
16:01:29  <Samu> they get an error saying it took too long to download
16:01:35  <Samu> how do I increase this time?
16:01:53  <planetmaker> max_join_time or so in openttd.cfg / via rcon
16:02:14  <Samu> the other question is how do I cap my upload ratio?
16:03:39  <Samu> say, to a max of 500 kbps
16:04:09  <planetmaker> ask in the channel dedicated to your OS / distribution
16:05:10  <planetmaker> mind, if you limit upload ratio, the download time for others will increase *even more*
16:08:44  <Samu> autosave is taking about ~15 game days lol
16:13:31  <planetmaker> that's what you get for using an over-sized map
16:13:49  <Samu> another error, processing map took too long, what does this mean?
16:16:11  <Samu> this error was from the autosave
16:22:19  <andythenorth> deniz1a: cargo ratings?
16:23:00  <Samu> how do I increase the processing map took too long error?
16:23:48  <Samu> downloaded ~16 MBytes when it happened, then the host sends that error
16:24:28  <Samu> the client joining gets a network-connection lost
16:24:31  <Samu> not true
16:26:51  <peter1138> Enable pause_on_join?
16:27:26  <Samu> ah the console says client #3 is dropped because it took longer than 500 ticks to join. I set the download time to 32000 :(
16:27:39  <Samu> it is on
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16:29:19  <peter1138> There should be no ticks when paused.
16:30:11  <deniz1a> andythenorth: yes cargo payment rates. is it possible to adjust them?
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16:30:20  <andythenorth> yes
16:30:23  <andythenorth> newgrfs do it
16:30:28  <deniz1a> which one?
16:30:34  <andythenorth> FIRS does it
16:30:36  <andythenorth> probably others
16:30:48  <deniz1a> firs doesnt have such an option
16:30:51  <andythenorth> if you want to set them yourself, you’d need to write a newgrf, unless one exists already
16:31:06  <deniz1a> ok
16:31:38  <Samu> mistery solved
16:31:47  <Samu> had to change 2 settings
16:32:17  <Samu> setting network.max_join_time 32000
16:32:21  <Samu> setting network.max_download_time 32000
16:32:54  <peter1138> Cool. Now stop playing stupid size maps.
16:33:12  <Samu> how long is 32000 ticks though?
16:33:19  <planetmaker> :)
16:33:24  <planetmaker> 30 per second
16:33:38  <andythenorth> why play a 4096x4096 map in MP :o
16:33:39  <planetmaker> @calc 32000/30/60
16:33:40  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 17.7777777778
16:33:41  <andythenorth> we don’t have sharding
16:33:44  <planetmaker> so... 17 minutes :D
16:34:27  <planetmaker> sounds like something which one could easily DOS with a fast connection :)
16:35:10  <peter1138> Or even a slow connection...
16:35:19  <planetmaker> :)
16:35:54  <Samu> gonna try disabling pause on join
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16:37:12  <Samu> oh, the server autosaving is throwing "possible connections losts, no answering for ~14 seconds" - it is saving during that time
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16:49:48  <Samu> gotta disable autosave
16:49:51  <Alberth> not sure why a server should autosave at all
16:50:08  <Alberth> also, did you force the program to use a single core?
16:50:20  <Samu> no idea
16:50:24  <Samu> where do I check that
16:50:38  <Alberth> in your operating system
16:50:49  <Samu> ah, no
16:51:09  <Samu> using all 8
16:51:17  <skrzyp> Samu: \o/
16:51:27  <Alberth> ha, not possible with openttd
16:51:44  <Alberth> maybe it moves between cores every now and then
16:52:21  <Samu> 6% cpu usage
16:52:42  <Samu> but affinity is set to use all cores
16:52:47  <Alberth> ok
16:53:27  <Alberth> afaik it makes a copy of the map, and then saves the map in a separate thread
16:53:43  <Alberth> unless you don't give it room to spawn a new thread of course
16:54:48  <Samu> 18% usage during savegame
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16:56:08  <Alberth> that seems to work thus
16:57:48  <Samu> cannot queue a client in front of another
16:58:20  <Samu> throwing "possible connections losts, no answering for" up to 20 seconds and disconnects :(
16:59:43  <Samu> client 1 is downloading, client 2 gets "possible connection lost" timer :(
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17:00:09  <Samu> anyway to avoid that disconnection?
17:00:25  <peter1138> Use a smaller map.
17:01:02  <andythenorth> play on a LAN?
17:01:14  <Samu> i am connecting to myself
17:01:23  <Samu> still, the data goes through the internet
17:01:39  <peter1138> Uh...
17:01:44  <peter1138> To yourself how?
17:01:50  <Samu> run several openttds
17:02:08  <peter1138> No, I mean, is it the same machine?
17:02:11  <Samu> yes
17:02:18  <peter1138> Then it's not going via the Internet.
17:02:41  <Samu> really?
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17:02:52  <Samu> strange, the upload rate was deemed too slow
17:02:54  <peter1138> Where would it be going?
17:03:03  <Samu> about 300 kb/s
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17:06:50  <Samu> you're right
17:06:55  <planetmaker> o/ Alberth
17:07:05  <Samu> there's something capping the upload to about 300 kb/s
17:07:13  <Alberth> hi hi
17:07:23  <planetmaker> autosave on a server makes perfect sense imho: you got saves to go back to in case of griefers or other trouble
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17:07:35  <Alberth> good point
17:07:37  <planetmaker> players get angry, if you destroy their stuff
17:07:41  <peter1138> Maybe not with 4096x4096 maps though :)
17:08:32  <planetmaker> well. I would not begin with a map that size in the first place :)
17:09:27  <andythenorth> it is an unusual chice
17:09:30  <andythenorth> choice *
17:09:54  <Samu> just testing
17:10:03  <Samu> i like to test stuff
17:10:28  <Alberth> you need that size, you don't want to run into other players by accident, do you?
17:11:35  <Samu> Client #7 is dropped because the client's game state is more than 501 ticks behind.
17:11:44  <Samu> what is this? how to fix?
17:12:28  <Samu> that was someone named P.J.Bush, do you know him?
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17:15:08  <Samu> is it max_lag_time?
17:15:19  <Samu> network.max_lag_time = 500?
17:16:06  <Alberth> I know a G.W. Bush
17:17:14  <Samu> setting network.max_lag_time = 32000
17:17:22  <Samu> too bad he's not rejoining :(
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17:20:36  <Alberth> @calc 32000 / 74
17:20:37  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 432.432432432
17:21:25  <Alberth> you want to play catch up when behind for more than a year?
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17:23:31  <Samu> i turned off autosave but it's still saving from time to time, is that normal?
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17:32:47  <Samu> I got it
17:33:07  <Samu> without pause on join, the client is playing fastforward lol
17:33:12  <Samu> after downloading
17:33:43  <Samu> it was behind about 2 game months
17:34:05  <Alberth> @calc 60 * 74
17:34:05  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 4440
17:34:18  <Alberth> still a lot more than 500
17:35:57  <Samu> game is quite unresponsive
17:37:03  <Samu> during fastforward that is
17:38:05  <Alberth> ever tried playing openttd in single player in fast forward?
17:38:23  <Samu> yes
17:38:23  <Alberth> hmm, that is probably working
17:39:00  <Alberth> the point is that if you are 2 months behind, and you add a track, it means you are placing track two months ago for the other players
17:39:28  <Alberth> since the game doesn't go back, it postpones your build operation by 2 months instead
17:40:09  <Samu> not that kind of unresponsive, but it was almost frozen
17:41:34  <Alberth> sure, that's what happens, you push the cpu to the limit
17:41:47  <Samu> 12% cpu :(
17:42:11  <peter1138> 8 core?
17:42:14  <Alberth> with a lot of internal network traffic
17:42:14  <Samu> yes
17:42:22  <peter1138> So 100% of 1 core.
17:43:06  <Samu> could we see stuff animating in fast forward instead? that would be a bit more pleasant
17:43:27  <Samu> just saying
17:43:50  <Alberth> in general, you should be in fast forward at all
17:43:57  <Alberth> +not
17:45:21  <Samu> that near-freeze right after the download while I can't do anything
17:45:27  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27125 trunk/src/lang/latin.txt (2015-01-23 17:45:19 UTC)
17:45:28  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:29  <DorpsGek> latin - 3 changes by Supercheese
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17:48:22  <Samu> how do I avoid the "possible connection lost"?
17:48:57  <Samu> can't queue clients because of this 20-second timer
17:50:21  <Alberth> buy a bigger network pipe, or reduce the amount of data you need to transfer
17:50:50  <Samu> :(
17:53:17  <andythenorth> ho ho
17:53:19  <Samu> autosaving in fastforward screws things even more
17:53:25  <Samu> hi
17:53:28  <andythenorth> what about that theory that banning trees from the map solves network issues? o_O
17:53:32  <andythenorth> maybe that will help him :)
17:54:52  <Samu> could autosave be temporarily off when fastforwarding?
17:55:05  <Samu> for the client
18:00:37  <Samu> nice, 25% cpu usage, during both actions
18:00:52  <Samu> i thought i'd never see the day OpenTTD going over 20%
18:01:19  <Alberth> run 8 instances, and it will hit 100% :p
18:02:00  <Samu> during fastfowarding + autosaving
18:04:07  <Samu> autosave off is irrelevant then for a dual core system
18:04:11  <Samu> I see
18:04:33  <Alberth> it saves copying the map
18:04:55  <Alberth> and spamming files to the disk :p
18:11:39  <Samu> hmm, could OpenTTD upload to several clients at once?
18:12:28  <Samu> to avoid the client queue
18:13:45  <Samu> there is an issue with the pause on join turned on
18:14:29  <Samu> the queueing guy was dropped after that "possible connection lost" timer, but in the server, it is in it
18:14:34  <Samu> game is paused
18:14:51  <Samu> and doesn't unpause
18:18:56  <Samu> can't manually unpause either, it is saying connecting clients)
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18:33:52  <Wolf01> hi hi
18:33:56  <Alberth> o/
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18:37:22  <andythenorth> quak
18:37:37  <Alberth> quak quak
18:37:47  <frosch123> hola
18:38:01  <andythenorth> biab
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18:38:10  <Alberth> :)
18:38:36  <Wolf01> bah, my coworker beat me on lego purchases... he spent about 400€ since the first of january, I spent only 230€
18:39:39  <Alberth> outsmart him by making nice new pieces of art?
18:39:58  <Wolf01> that's what I do everytime :D
18:39:59  <Alberth> everybody can win at buying lego
18:41:19  <Alberth> just needs money and storage
18:41:23  <Wolf01> now I'm out of ideas and I'm improving this one:$main$
18:42:05  <Wolf01> I'm trying to make the front to open without doing any noticeable external change
18:43:04  <Alberth> would be useful for freeing the person trapped in the front glass :)
18:44:56  <Wolf01> I'm also studying to build a modular set based on TT, but not with "real" tracks since they are really too big and every tile will be a lego baseplate
18:45:55  <Alberth> that will need a lot of room :)
18:46:07  <Alberth> depending on the size of the base plate
18:46:23  <Wolf01> yes, that's why I want to keep the tile like 4x4 studs
18:46:38  <Alberth> oh, quite manageable :)
18:46:52  <Wolf01> which is like my brickland baseset
18:47:26  <Wolf01> (except that is made thinking of duplo, which mean the tile is 8x8 in lego studs)
18:47:33  <Alberth> using openttd to design a landscape for the tiles
18:48:00  <Wolf01> mmh, dinner time
18:48:11  <Alberth> enjoy
18:51:37  <frosch123> V453000: what happened to your wasd keyboard?
18:51:43  <frosch123> did you break it? :p
18:52:27  <V453000> no, I bought the daskeyboard for work
18:52:40  <V453000> wasd is just fine at home :)
18:52:58  <V453000> but since I spend most of the day at work I couldnt stand the one there :D
18:53:04  <frosch123> ok, i was worried they do not last V for a year
18:53:22  <V453000> bonus is that I still have all of the custom keycaps twice, so I can replace some :P
18:53:25  <frosch123> s/last/sustain/
18:53:33  <V453000> yeah :) no worries there
18:53:45  <V453000> I got brown switches for work though
18:53:48  <V453000> less noize
18:55:28  <frosch123> hmm, true, i guess keyboards noises cannot cover the phone ringing
18:56:04  <V453000> eh our phone doesnt ring that often, but keyboard is constant :P it would be quite annoying
18:56:07  <V453000> the browns are quite ok
18:56:28  <V453000> and the extra media keys are super useful for me to put volume down quickly when someone wants something etc
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19:41:44  <dreck> hi
19:57:00  <andythenorth> Vehicle Parts: crates or tons?
19:57:11  <andythenorth> implies tyres, windscreens, panels, engines etc
19:57:15  <Alberth> crates, imho
19:57:31  <andythenorth> +1
19:57:56  <Alberth> give 1 tonne of windscreens :p
19:58:07  <andythenorth> eh I still can’t login to newgrf wiki :)
19:58:11  <andythenorth> no docs updates from me then
19:59:38  <andythenorth> “VPTS”?
19:59:59  <andythenorth> “VPRT”
20:00:31  <dreck> yeah I would say 'crates' too
20:01:15  <dreck> tons would be more like for the iron ore used to create the engine block with etc
20:01:46  <Alberth> VPTS
20:01:57  <Alberth> VEHP
20:02:15  <Alberth> PART
20:02:56  <dreck> I'll say VHPT as its VeH ParTs?
20:03:01  <dreck> dunno tbh :)
20:04:26  <andythenorth> VPTS
20:05:04  <V453000> PART
20:05:39  <andythenorth> doesn’t that game over anyone who wants to make generic ‘parts'?
20:05:49  <andythenorth> FIRS had parts once upon a time
20:06:06  <andythenorth> eh, they won’t know the label exists anyway :)
20:06:47  <V453000> xd
20:06:53  <V453000> use GEAR
20:07:39  <andythenorth> ha
20:08:01  <Alberth> :D
20:08:45  <dreck> actually Railroad Tycoon 2 as I recall had cars .. but nothing specific for 'car parts' because you only did rubber>tire>factory and coal+ore>steel>factory ..then the car factory produced automobiles that could be sold to towns or to the import/export docks
20:08:53  <dreck> just a bit OT quibbing :)
20:09:06  <andythenorth> I have the RT3 cargo chart here
20:09:09  * andythenorth looks
20:09:28  <dreck> heh I have RT2+expansion .. still  keep trying to find someone with the other special version I would love to trade for :->
20:09:45  <andythenorth> tyres -> auto plant
20:09:50  <dreck> and also the disks for RT too .. never used it for a long time tho
20:09:59  <andythenorth> cars -> town
20:10:05  <V453000> everybody knows vehicles come out of balls of steel, petrol and batteries
20:10:14  <dreck> yeah I think RT2 and RT3 shared a lot of similar industry system
20:10:30  <V453000> no cars to fmsp/ensp ? :P
20:10:31  <dreck> different vehicles and how these were purchased tho..especially something about "freight type" and "passenger type"
20:10:38  <andythenorth> V453000: fuck no
20:10:39  <V453000> goods cargoes are boring, just profit meh
20:10:44  <dreck> that was why I never really went into RT3 as I didn't like the idea a lot
20:10:55  <V453000> export them to port! :D
20:11:03  <andythenorth> goods -> port
20:11:08  <andythenorth> get useful stuff back
20:11:11  <andythenorth> ports solve all ills
20:11:17  <V453000> YARR
20:11:27  <andythenorth> at expense of realisms, enforced chains blah blah
20:11:45  <andythenorth> BUT IT’S NOT LOGICAL!
20:11:50  <Alberth> yay!
20:11:59  <dreck> andy yeah the Port in RT2 could produce weird things from time to time
20:12:25  <dreck> such as trading passengers in return for ore ..or goods>steel (and send steel back to the die factory to make more goods to send back to same port...weird loop! heh)
20:12:31  <Alberth> space port in dune could do that too
20:12:39  <frosch123> how about a completely unspecific economy? cargo types are stuff, parts, things, goods, gadgets, ...
20:12:45  <V453000> port is perfectly logical export/import economy
20:12:50  <frosch123> may drive vehicle authors insane :p
20:12:57  <V453000> I like it frosch123
20:12:58  <andythenorth> frosch123: in FIRS 2.0 :)
20:13:05  <andythenorth> me and V453000 will collaborate
20:13:08  <andythenorth> that would be insane
20:15:02  <Alberth> can we have magic too?
20:15:45  <Alberth> I wonder if that counts as familiy-friendly....
20:16:40  <Alberth> Some people didn't want their children to read Harry Potter, as it contains stories about wizards and witches
20:16:43  <frosch123> ah, yeah, "magic", "energy", "air", "pressure", "temperature", ... all good cargos :)
20:16:58  <Alberth> we already have "air", as bubble
20:18:31  <andythenorth> unicorns
20:18:33  <andythenorth> ponies
20:18:39  <andythenorth> karma
20:19:21  <V453000> I quite liked the idea of Alberth to create generic box-ish cargoes :)
20:19:22  *** Biolunar [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20:19:31  <andythenorth> so what’s the magic hg command to merge without it complaining about uncommited changes?
20:19:36  <andythenorth> nvm :P
20:19:43  <V453000> at the asme time it doesnt exactly fit my plans though :P
20:19:50  <andythenorth> I can’t push atomic commits with hg
20:19:55  <andythenorth> probably using it wrong
20:20:01  <andythenorth> user error
20:20:05  <Alberth> just brewing plans for whatever you do next, V  :)
20:20:11  <V453000> :P
20:20:33  <V453000> RAWR PURR CATS NUTS YETI, ?
20:20:44  <V453000> plans are at ? position :P
20:20:56  <V453000> chronologically sorted
20:21:02  <V453000> from the left to right.
20:21:10  <Alberth> yeah, I had BLOCKy but that obviously doesn't fit
20:21:29  <V453000> CUBE
20:21:29  <Alberth> BLKy  ?
20:21:31  <V453000> ez
20:21:46  <V453000> CUBE Ultimately Boring Economy? :D
20:21:47  <Alberth> +1 on CUBE
20:21:58  <V453000> Utterly Boxxy econome? :)
20:22:03  <V453000> Box-ish?
20:22:07  <V453000> Boxful?
20:22:12  <V453000> Boxing?
20:22:15  <V453000> Boxistic?
20:22:18  <Alberth> nah, boxxy is much better
20:22:43  <V453000> well then Eventually! :D
20:22:49  <andythenorth> SANE
20:23:03  <andythenorth> ROXX
20:23:06  <andythenorth> HAXX
20:23:11  * andythenorth might make HAXX
20:23:23  <V453000> all of your newgrfs are haxx
20:23:31  <V453000>  /TOP LEVEL INSULT
20:23:32  <andythenorth> unkind
20:23:50  <andythenorth> some of them I didn’t get chance to do haxx yet
20:24:03  <andythenorth> but I’m working on it
20:25:02  <andythenorth> Vehicle Factory or Vehicle Plant?
20:25:30  <Alberth> Vehicle Plant as in Power Plant?
20:25:42  <andythenorth> yah
20:25:53  <andythenorth> makes vehicles
20:26:15  <Alberth> factory sounds nicer to me, tbh
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20:27:01  <Alberth> perhaps  british <-> american ?
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20:27:37  <deniz1a> hi. is there a guide that explains how to develop newgrf extensions?
20:28:57  <frosch123> deniz1a:
20:29:08  <V453000> tt-wiki has some coding documentation sortoftutorials, I have written tutorials on how to create stuff in 3D postproduction, and there might be a couple pixel drawing tutorials around everywhere :)
20:29:14  <Alberth>
20:29:50  <dreck> deniz1a old tutorials here too if you want
20:29:51  <deniz1a> ok thanks. i couldn't find that from the web site...
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20:50:03  * andythenorth plans a big FIRS rewrite
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20:52:05  <V453000> to newNML?
20:52:34  <V453000> or to NFO?
20:53:54  <andythenorth> to something that isn’t a horrible mix of python and CPP
20:54:04  <andythenorth> half of which manages things like IDs automatically
20:54:08  <andythenorth> and the other half manually
20:54:48  <deniz1a> will it have 32 bit graphics?
20:55:34  <andythenorth> absolutely not
21:00:34  <V453000> BAD
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21:01:03  <andythenorth> zero interest
21:01:17  <andythenorth> 2x zoom pixel art, then we’d be talking
21:01:23  <deniz1a> why not? no graphics designers or is it a decision not to?
21:01:25  <andythenorth> but I’m not doing the whole bloody game
21:01:40  <andythenorth> I like pixel art
21:01:58  <andythenorth> it would be way easier in some respects to render sprites
21:02:01  <andythenorth> but eh no
21:02:16  <deniz1a> yeah it looks good as long as you dont zoom. is there a way to convert pixelart to vector svg?
21:02:44  <deniz1a> then it could be converted to png
21:02:55  <andythenorth> it already is png
21:03:10  <deniz1a> i mean with high resolution
21:03:26  <V453000> 3D is useful, really :) but pixel art is unmatched in x1
21:03:41  <deniz1a> 3d?
21:03:51  <andythenorth> polgyons and rendering
21:03:53  <deniz1a> what's x1?
21:04:16  <V453000> zoom
21:04:23  <deniz1a> oh
21:04:48  <deniz1a> but 3d doesnt have much to do with that? you can zoom with 2d graphics too
21:04:59  <deniz1a> 3d would make it easier to see behind buildings
21:05:12  <deniz1a> you could rotate camera
21:05:18  <frosch123> 32bpp also has nothing to do with zoom-in :p
21:05:38  <deniz1a> yeah that's right, it's just the colors
21:05:41  <V453000> ^
21:06:00  <deniz1a> but 32bit graphics are also made in high resolution
21:06:14  <V453000> basically, if you create extra zoom, it is more convenient to render things and have them in 32bpp, simply because drawing x4 32bpp is just pure insanity in terms of time consumption
21:06:29  <V453000> on the other hand is traditional x1 zoom pixel drawing
21:06:50  <V453000> from personal experience, once you get a 3D project set up, the newGRF set grows VERY quickly
21:07:14  <V453000> e.g. I drew a full generation of wagons for all cargoes in the game for 3 weeks of hardcore work in pixel art, now I have it in 2 days in 3D models
21:07:15  <deniz1a> are there programs that automatically convert bitmap to vector graphics?
21:07:28  <deniz1a> then all the old pixelart could be made high res
21:07:37  <V453000> I dont think they would do well and it would still lack details, it would just be higher resolution but nothing to see there
21:07:51  <deniz1a> yeah ok
21:07:55  <V453000> we already have zbase which does that
21:08:01  <V453000> of course not by vector, but same result
21:08:12  <deniz1a> and it's much better then opengfx
21:08:39  <V453000> not really
21:08:45  <deniz1a> why?
21:08:50  <V453000> it looks utterly horrible
21:09:05  <V453000> there is nothing to see, textures are almost nonexistent, models are nothing new
21:09:06  <deniz1a> but you can zoom..
21:09:16  <V453000> yes, only more pixels, but without extra content
21:09:37  <deniz1a> still better than blocky pixels when zoomed in
21:10:36  <V453000> yeah but in any other zoom than x4 it looks outright awful
21:11:19  <V453000> and since normally players spend most of the time in x1 with some occassional x2 and rather rare marveling at graphics at x4, I think the focus should remain at x1
21:11:22  <deniz1a> yes it lacks detail compared to standard graphics but i still prefer zoom
21:11:36  <V453000> note that I am saying this as probably the largest scale 32bpp/extra zoom graphics author at the moment
21:12:08  <deniz1a> oh i constantly zoom in on my vehicles doing their work, earning me money
21:12:40  <V453000> sure but how long is that going to last :) after you have seen all of them and you play the game for a longer time, you will stay in more normal zooms more often
21:13:01  <andythenorth> the game already converts 1x graphics to 4x
21:13:01  <V453000> extra zooms are nice and cute and all, but the x1 is still pivotal
21:13:04  <andythenorth> that’s how it zooms
21:13:22  <frosch123> <- deniz1a: V prefers that kind of look :p
21:13:24  <andythenorth> opengfx is nothing to compare against
21:13:29  <deniz1a> i sometimes click on a train and maximize its following window and watch
21:13:35  <deniz1a> it's very relaxing
21:13:43  <andythenorth> sometimes I have to test FIRS with OpenGFX
21:14:01  <Samu>
21:14:01  <andythenorth> then I realise why so many players think the game looks dated and want 32bpp
21:14:06  <Samu> :p
21:14:32  <V453000> yes OpenGFX isnt the best either
21:14:38  <V453000> been saying that for years
21:14:40  <andythenorth> it’s on the edge
21:14:45  <andythenorth> as an achievement, it’s pretty awesome
21:14:57  <andythenorth> but compared to original TTD sprites, no comparison
21:15:07  <V453000> well sure zbase as an achievement is cool as well, considering it took 350 hours
21:15:42  <V453000> and zephyris deserves all the respect as nobody did anything more useful even until now, but that doesnt mean it is actually good :)
21:15:48  * andythenorth wonders how long Simon Foster had to draw original sprites
21:15:52  <andythenorth> maybe 1 year?
21:15:57  <Samu> i like my gpu upscalling from 1280x720
21:16:06  <andythenorth> probably in DPaint on an Amiga?
21:16:18  <V453000> idk really but must have been a while, I would assume something like a year
21:17:12  <V453000> holy shit at your signalling Samu
21:17:19  <andythenorth> perhaps he used MS Paint
21:17:24  <andythenorth> or MacDraw
21:17:28  <andythenorth> or even :o Corel
21:17:52  <Samu> oh I got a viewer
21:17:59  <V453000> software is quite irrelevant for pixel art tbh :)
21:18:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: did it support scroll lock?
21:20:30  <V453000> also, the filesizes with 32bpp/extra zoom are quite wtf too
21:20:33  <frosch123> i only remember one software that ever made use of scroll lock, some weird dos paint program
21:20:36  <V453000> RAWR will probably not get under 300MB
21:20:51  <V453000> even with the first versions of only landscape/tracks/roads
21:21:02  <V453000> not even all the shitload of other stuff
21:22:20  <V453000> and if you suddenly have an industry set with 200MB, train set with 200MB, landscape with 200MB, station set with 200MB, it adds up quickly ._.
21:22:34  <V453000> some people are complaining about my newgrfs already :D
21:22:59  <frosch123> yeah, i worry 1.6 will have to deal with more 32bpp stuff :)
21:23:36  <V453000> that is probably inevitable as time passes
21:24:02  <V453000> at the same time there arent really any people who actually do create 32bpp/ez on a serious scale
21:24:36  <V453000> currently...
21:24:36  <frosch123> oh, don't worry, that's only a matter of time
21:25:04  <frosch123> old people do pixel drawing, young people do not even consider that
21:25:30  <V453000> well lets see :) if bad brett releases at least something lets see how useful will that be :)
21:25:30  <V453000> if
21:26:08  <Samu> did i get any reply the other day about dried river tiles?
21:26:14  <Samu>
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21:27:23  <deniz1a> are train wagons the same for all track types?
21:27:43  <frosch123> not necessarily
21:27:52  <frosch123> usually they are the same for elrail/normal rail
21:27:59  <frosch123> but it's up to the newgrf
21:28:33  <Samu> guess not
21:29:20  <deniz1a> is the source code of reduced passenger rate newgrf available?
21:29:59  <frosch123> check it's website link, if it has any
21:30:17  <frosch123> -'
21:30:18  <deniz1a> there isn't any link in description
21:30:41  <frosch123> no link in the content download either?
21:30:45  <deniz1a> no
21:31:06  <frosch123> no idea then
21:31:12  <deniz1a> ok
21:31:13  * dreck points to grfcodec
21:31:14  <dreck> :)
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21:37:00  <Samu> oh nice, timetables are autofilled now
21:40:39  <Samu> I feel like photoshopping something in the orders menu, it's a bit clumsy
21:40:44  <Samu> for a suggestion
21:42:21  <andythenorth> hmm
21:42:26  * andythenorth adds Birdshit Mine
21:42:29  <andythenorth> or Batshit Mine
21:42:45  <frosch123> Guano Mine
21:42:49  <andythenorth> yeah
21:42:55  <andythenorth> good guess
21:44:55  <frosch123> give it the clay pit/quarry graphics, just with a white-greenish lake
21:47:45  <andythenorth> ha
21:47:45  <andythenorth> no
21:48:26  <frosch123> so a car park under some trees instead?
21:49:18  <andythenorth> waiting for V453000 to render me something
21:49:22  <andythenorth> a _giant_ bat
21:49:43  <andythenorth> if that doesn’t happen, Dan has drawn this
21:49:48  <andythenorth> needs some more shading
21:50:04  <andythenorth> intended to be built on water, maybe I can make it build on land too
21:50:10  <andythenorth> not sure if I can permit both
21:50:26  <andythenorth> but I am hoping for the giant bat, in a FIRS style
21:50:48  <V453000> I am a selfish cunt and I only render for meself and CATS and sending Pikka yeti meshes :P
21:50:57  <andythenorth> rude
21:51:09  <Samu> ms paint-shop suggestion:
21:51:35  <Samu> 0, 25, 50, 75, 100, as presets
21:51:41  <andythenorth> ah that
21:51:46  <andythenorth> V453000 has ruled that out already
21:52:52  <Samu> maybe improve upon the others as well
21:53:11  <Samu> brb
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21:55:18  <andythenorth> bye
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22:03:17  <Samu> more photoshop suggestions:
22:07:44  *** Haube [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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22:17:21  <supermop> yo
22:17:38  <Samu> someone went crazy and planted trees everywhere, it is increasing my stream upload rate considerably during motion
22:17:49  <Samu> hi
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22:47:26  <Samu> windows 10 will be free for owners of windows 7 :)
22:47:31  <Samu> I am pleased
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22:58:27  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:11:49  <Samu> can i post suggestions in the bug tracker, under feature request or better not?
23:17:56  *** naliao [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:24:58  <Eddi|zuHause> a post in the tracker is better for developer response, a post in the forum is better for user/community response. if you have nothing that benefits the development effort, a post on the tracker is probably useless
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23:38:27  <Samu> the suggestion is about conditional orders with buttons instead of drop down, like in the image I edited
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23:45:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i think there is already a larger topic about order gui restructuring
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23:48:27  <Samu> order gui restructuring
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