Log for #openttd on 28th January 2015:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:24:15  *** pxr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:25:23  *** itsatacoshop247 [~itsatacos@2601:9:1180:237:f16d:3c7a:3ff5:b6bc] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:27:41  *** Quatroking_ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:32:54  *** quorzom [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:52:57  *** itsatacoshop247 [~itsatacos@2601:9:1180:237:f16d:3c7a:3ff5:b6bc] has joined #openttd
01:57:43  *** FreeZeee [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:04:44  *** shirish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:06:46  *** FreeZeee [] has joined #openttd
02:19:30  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
02:32:13  *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
02:34:50  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
02:35:05  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
02:49:30  *** ST2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:50:32  *** ST2 [] has joined #openttd
02:54:51  *** Mek [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:59:32  *** Mek [] has joined #openttd
03:00:37  *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
03:30:20  *** Biolunar_ [] has joined #openttd
03:37:21  *** Biolunar [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:01:02  *** glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
04:18:12  *** DDR [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:18:33  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
05:56:02  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
05:56:07  *** xT2 [] has joined #openttd
05:56:18  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
06:02:19  *** ST2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:02:19  *** xT2 is now known as ST2
06:03:57  *** guru3-vps [~guru3-vps@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:04:59  *** guru3-vps [~guru3-vps@] has joined #openttd
06:15:23  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
06:44:03  *** DDR [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:43:00  <V453000> NOTBUGZ :)
07:44:18  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:03:44  <Supercheese> Should put RAWR on here:
08:05:12  *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@2a00:6960:1:1:0:24:107:1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:06:00  *** Cybertinus [] has joined #openttd
08:22:01  <V453000> did dat
08:28:41  <Supercheese>  :)
08:29:33  <V453000> rawr so famous now
08:30:02  *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:85b6:e13e:91ca:9cac] has joined #openttd
08:37:39  <ST2> only took a quick look but seems like a real ROOAAARRRR and not a simple "meow"
08:37:44  <ST2> good job V453000 :)
08:38:40  *** TinoDidriksen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:41:20  <V453000> :)
09:01:53  *** tokai|mdlx [] has joined #openttd
09:08:18  *** tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:20:28  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:26:27  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has joined #openttd
09:59:30  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o]
10:06:34  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
10:06:37  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
10:07:33  *** tokai [] has quit []
10:23:14  *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium]
10:33:30  *** TinoDidriksen [] has joined #openttd
10:51:03  *** itsatacoshop247 [~itsatacos@2601:9:1180:237:f16d:3c7a:3ff5:b6bc] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:56:03  *** supermop [] has joined #openttd
11:06:37  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
11:06:40  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
11:12:13  *** Biolunar_ [] has quit [Quit: Yo.]
11:37:11  *** Rejf [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:39:53  *** glevans2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:41:46  *** glevans2 [] has joined #openttd
11:49:48  *** dreck [] has joined #openttd
11:49:51  <dreck> hi
12:32:04  *** Supercheese is now known as Guest3512
12:32:09  *** Supercheese [] has joined #openttd
12:35:02  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit []
12:37:33  *** Guest3512 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:51:14  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
13:04:43  <supermop> yo
13:05:10  <__ln__> tú
13:05:15  *** dfox [~dfox@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:06:06  <V453000> ř
13:09:04  *** Klanticus [~quassel@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:11:13  *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@] has joined #openttd
13:12:01  <dreck> hi
13:12:02  <dreck> :)
13:16:30  <supermop> goodnight
13:16:42  <dreck> night? its 08:17 here :)
13:17:08  *** dfox [~dfox@] has joined #openttd
13:17:16  *** Haube [] has joined #openttd
13:24:34  *** supermop [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:34:28  *** KouDy_ [~koudy@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:54:04  *** KouDy [~koudy@] has joined #openttd
14:04:41  *** skrzyp [~skrzyp@2a03:b0c0:2:d0::296:3001] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:04:54  *** skrzyp [skrzyp@2a03:b0c0:2:d0::296:3001] has joined #openttd
14:09:48  *** Haube1 [~Michi@] has joined #openttd
14:15:48  *** Haube [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:21:31  *** Haube [] has joined #openttd
14:24:29  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has joined #openttd
14:25:02  *** Haube2 [~Michi@] has joined #openttd
14:25:20  *** Haube1 [~Michi@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:26:10  *** Klanticus [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
14:29:33  *** Haube [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:30:33  <dreck> sorry to ask again as I somehow forgot what was much can you change a locomotive through refit before you have to use a separate id for it or doing that weird regearthinge/etc?
14:31:59  <planetmaker> you can change it as much as you want. The question is: what is sensible and do you care about players and their expectation on how autorenew and autoreplace works
14:32:39  <planetmaker> IMHO use a new ID for any change. Refit is for cargo, not for stats
14:33:08  *** Quatroking [] has joined #openttd
14:34:11  <dreck> planetmaker heh yeah I didn't like how NARS (I think thats where it happened but been a while so I might be mixed up) seemingly give you three different locomotives for the same id automatically..and even if you try check the refit window in the depot it still doesn't show you any options
14:34:17  <dreck> that is a bad way to do it in my view anyway ^
14:35:22  *** liq3 [] has quit []
14:35:42  <planetmaker> offering refit for different livery, though, why not. That doesn't matter really much :)
14:37:08  <dreck> true that
14:38:22  <dreck> btw you had me there tho..I'll have to check what kind of renew/refit combos wouldn't work as given
14:39:07  <planetmaker> point is: with renew active I expect the vehicle to not change stats (no change of them with time)
14:39:34  <planetmaker> autoreplace doesn't work, if you offer different gearings (or whatever) for the same vehicle. Thus use different IDs for that
14:40:02  <dreck> planetmaker heh you'll hate NARS (again I wish I could remember if it was actually that grf or something else) :)
14:40:12  <planetmaker> I know how nars works, yes
14:40:19  <planetmaker> and yes, it does all that
14:40:39  <dreck> eg buy one steam locomotive in 1920 ...then in 1934 you get something different even although the refit window is EMPTY .. that is the dumbest way to do it in my view like I was saying already :)
14:41:03  <dreck> but anyway .. yeah livery refits - who cares as its only cosmetic :)
14:41:16  <planetmaker> and cargo of course :)
14:41:25  <dreck> I'll admit I do kinda like the idea of a grf letting you choose between automatic and manual liveries tho
14:41:41  <dreck> eg canset lets you pick between CN and CP paintstyle on earlier passenger trains yourself
14:42:03  <planetmaker> make the default livery (subtype0) choose random(=automatic) and choose subtypes 1...n for manual selection
14:42:10  <dreck> that indeed ^
14:42:58  <andythenorth> canset doesn’t let you do anything any more
14:43:09  <dreck> oh yeah and the newish SBB set also lets you either see mixed freight wagons or to set the whole thing to one single livery (but you can't choose which one..ah well)
14:43:41  <planetmaker> it's open-source. Get it, fix it, provide patch :)
14:43:58  <dreck> :p
14:44:02  <planetmaker> I'm sure dandan wouldn't mind
14:45:20  <dreck> anyway ty either way .. back to a little more spreadsheeting then have to see someone for a while :->
14:46:20  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
15:03:12  *** berndj [] has quit [Quit: ZNC -]
15:57:07  *** TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
15:58:53  *** tokai [] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o]
16:03:52  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
16:03:55  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
16:11:05  <dreck> back
16:20:14  *** quorzom [] has joined #openttd
16:24:30  <dreck> hmm planetmaker I just remembered one other reason I wanted poke around with the refit's limits...
16:24:54  <dreck> kinda wondering if smoke plume has to come from same spot all the times or a cosmetic refit could make it come from a different spot :)
16:31:25  <planetmaker> hu?
16:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a smoke callback that lets you do all kinds of fancy stuff in 1.5
16:32:05  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if it's already in 1.4
16:32:20  <Eddi|zuHause> may be called "effect vehicle" or something
16:32:40  <planetmaker> yes, there is. I just wonder why that would need a refit
16:33:09  <planetmaker> Train engines are not sports cars where people tune their exhaust pipe for moar sound and compensation of their missing male parts
16:35:07  <dreck> planetmaker ROFL .. well tbh it would look weird if a locomotive was smoking from the cab instead of from where the engine actually is another 10 pixels further back :)
16:35:34  <dreck> but anyway ty to you two
16:36:01  <dreck> I'll think about livery/smoke refit versus dupliciating the loco id just to fit the different body styles
16:37:04  <planetmaker> well, sure, it's just cosmetics... it's like a different paint
16:38:23  *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
16:38:26  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
16:52:30  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@] has joined #openttd
17:02:05  *** dreck [] has left #openttd []
17:13:07  *** tokai [] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o]
17:25:38  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
17:25:41  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
17:30:37  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
17:30:41  *** Pensacola [] has joined #openttd
17:38:43  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:43:44  *** TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
17:49:50  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
17:51:36  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
17:53:43  *** Taede [] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into]
17:54:25  *** Taede [] has joined #openttd
17:58:35  <andythenorth> Alberth: the total combinations of states for industry open / close is quite complex :)
17:58:51  <Alberth> hi hi
17:59:07  *** glx [] has joined #openttd
17:59:07  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
17:59:07  <andythenorth> he wants the game to build at map gen time, but not during gameplay, but player can build
17:59:24  <andythenorth> there are two OTTD settings to also account for :P
17:59:38  <Alberth> you need enough settings to confuse everybody :)
18:00:29  <Alberth> hmm, very tricky, perhaps if you can change the industry gen setting through the console, it could work
18:00:46  <Alberth> but that's pretty much unexaplainable
18:01:57  <andythenorth> it could be done in FIRS, I just have no inclination to do it :)
18:03:13  <planetmaker> hi hi
18:03:36  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is the complexity? "Industry over time: open&close|open|static"
18:03:41  <planetmaker> indeed a setting like "don't close / open industries" makes sense from a scenario POV. Without newgrf interference
18:04:25  <Alberth> in the new mapgen window perhaps
18:05:13  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: open isn’t a single state
18:05:17  <andythenorth> player open
18:05:19  <andythenorth> GS open
18:05:23  <andythenorth> random open
18:05:27  <andythenorth> player & random open
18:05:30  <andythenorth> player & GS open
18:05:35  <andythenorth> etc blah
18:05:38  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
18:05:40  <planetmaker> bitmask of open states :)
18:05:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that's nonsense. only the "random open" needs a setting
18:05:53  <andythenorth> also they seem to want control over primary and secondary
18:05:56  <andythenorth> probably
18:06:38  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
18:08:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm assuming you forbid random opening, but permit player opening through setting the appearance chances to 0
18:08:40  <Eddi|zuHause> there are already separate appearance chances for game creation and gameplay, so you don't have to special case that
18:10:13  <andythenorth> plausible
18:11:42  <Eddi|zuHause> "Industry over time: industries randomly open&close | industries randomly open, but never close | industries open through funding only, and never close"
18:12:32  <andythenorth> that’s just the FIRS state
18:12:46  <andythenorth> There are also two OTTD settings to consider
18:12:59  <Eddi|zuHause> why would you?
18:13:30  <andythenorth> maybe I wouldn’t
18:13:46  <andythenorth> but seems like there are a lot of bug reports on this
18:13:51  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the harm if they say "industries can only be funded" and also set primary funding to disabled?
18:13:56  <andythenorth> otoh other people seem to answer the bug reports, not me
18:14:07  <andythenorth> I usually ignore anything to do with this stuff in FIRS
18:14:43  <andythenorth> your list also needs “industries never open”
18:15:21  <Eddi|zuHause> what for?
18:15:32  <andythenorth> because features may not be removed
18:15:40  <Eddi|zuHause> just make them really really expensive :p
18:15:45  <andythenorth> FIRS already provides ‘no opening'
18:16:09  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not "remove a feature", it's "change the semantics of the feature"
18:16:19  * andythenorth plots Lumberjack
18:16:25  <andythenorth> new set, new rules
18:16:33  <Eddi|zuHause> ?
18:16:38  <andythenorth> FIRS 2
18:16:45  <Eddi|zuHause> ?
18:16:51  <andythenorth> remove the broken
18:17:11  <andythenorth> closer to original TTD
18:17:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't follow...
18:18:09  <Eddi|zuHause> use more words
18:18:32  <andythenorth> to make major changes to the set, demands a new version
18:18:46  <andythenorth> the new version is an opportunity to remove most of the bad features
18:18:55  <andythenorth> and inevitably, invent new bad features
18:19:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and how is this a "major change"?
18:19:14  <andythenorth> removing a player feature?
18:19:46  <andythenorth> removal of the ‘Prevent industries opening during gameplay’ param
18:20:02  <andythenorth> in favour of new options, or just remove it totally
18:20:44  <andythenorth> if I do that in FIRS, someone is going to pop up and whine about it
18:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, if you make irrational roundhouse kicks to get rid of features you're annoyed to fix, people will whine
18:25:49  *** kais58 is now known as kais58|AFK
18:25:55  *** Pensacola [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:25:59  *** kais58|AFK is now known as kais58
18:26:43  <frosch123> V453000: if you want a third opinion, press ctrl+b. then you have 3 alignemnts: zbase, rawr, ottd
18:27:29  <Alberth> it's a myth that you will have enough options, people will always find new combinations that you didn't implement
18:28:44  <V453000> right sooo
18:28:52  <V453000> align to bounding boxes I assume
18:29:28  <frosch123> likely they are all wrong :) zbase, rawr, bounding boxes, 1x sprites :)
18:30:06  <V453000> XD
18:30:11  <V453000> even bounding boxes are ronk?
18:30:39  <frosch123> you can only trust them +-1 pixel or so
18:31:14  <frosch123> other than that, we should define sane offsets, and then fix zbase and/or rawr
18:31:15  <V453000> well I guess it is the most solid convention to align to
18:31:29  <frosch123> using different offsets will hurt all non-basesets like yeti
18:31:33  <planetmaker> <frosch123> other than that, we should define sane offsets, and then fix zbase and/or rawr <-- definitely :)
18:31:42  <V453000> well I can fix yeti easily :)
18:32:03  <planetmaker> we can fix all those "easily". It's just... still lots of work ;)
18:32:29  <V453000> and since there arent really any other serious 32bpp newGRFs with land/building/industry tiles, setting up something good would be great
18:32:34  <V453000> earlier better :)
18:32:54  <frosch123> V453000: dou you have some plain ground sprites? i.e. just the shape with no texture?
18:33:03  <V453000> sure, the masks
18:33:05  <V453000> even in the rep
18:33:06  <V453000> o
18:33:27  <frosch123> ok, maybe i try to align them vs. ottd internals, then we can add them to newgrf specs wiki
18:33:44  <V453000>
18:34:07  <V453000> I would greatly appreciate that
18:34:24  <V453000> it is one of the things I am very WTF about since the beginning
18:34:30  <planetmaker> probably a good idea
18:35:02  *** lobstar [~mccrabbym@] has quit [Quit: IMMAH QUIT MA LAZ-]
18:35:03  *** FLHerne [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:35:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the alignment point should be the top corner
18:35:35  <V453000> define point in pixels xD
18:35:44  <frosch123> yes, but that definition also has only a precision of +-1 pixel :)
18:35:56  <V453000> ^
18:36:03  <frosch123> wow, only 5 minutes to clone
18:36:07  <frosch123> i expected hours
18:36:17  * andythenorth wonders what Lumberjack should keep or bin from FIRS
18:36:27  <V453000> nah rawr is small :) 600mb or so
18:36:44  <andythenorth> secondary industry combining cargos for more output?  Keep?
18:36:55  <andythenorth> kind of annoys me
18:37:13  <frosch123> it's a reward
18:37:29  <frosch123> rewards are a good feature, aren't they?
18:37:43  <andythenorth> probly
18:37:51  <andythenorth> 30 days is quite short
18:37:56  <V453000> frosch123: NUTS is pushing for 4 hours already :P
18:37:57  <andythenorth> mitigates against long routes
18:38:46  <andythenorth> supplies: been discussed to death, no convincing better idea proposed.  Keep?
18:38:47  <frosch123> V453000: yeti is the reason i enabled the "progress" extension :p
18:38:57  <V453000> XD progress extension?
18:39:16  <frosch123> makes hg display how much it has done, instead of staying silent for hours
18:39:31  <frosch123> no idea how to do that with tortoisehg, if you are using that
18:39:47  <V453000> xd
18:40:10  <andythenorth> industry date restrictions: remove
18:40:20  <planetmaker> thg probably comes with progress enabled
18:41:10  <V453000> yeah I think there are progress bars and info about everywhere
18:41:15  <V453000> handy for my actions. :D
18:41:32  <V453000> 311/387 :) over 75% done
18:41:52  <andythenorth> station rating hax: remove
18:42:07  <planetmaker> though thg doesn't use necessarily hg's command server but its internal API at times
18:42:12  <V453000> yeah that one is also nasty andy
18:42:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: make it a separate grf :)
18:42:46  <andythenorth> water industry max coast distance?  Keep?
18:43:20  <frosch123> what are water industries?
18:43:26  <frosch123> i assume not harbors :)
18:43:35  <andythenorth> oil rigs and such
18:43:35  <V453000> SLUG MERCHANTS
18:43:37  <frosch123> fishing grounds?
18:43:39  <andythenorth> yeah
18:43:52  <andythenorth> it’s hax so they can be served by trains
18:43:56  <V453000> rigs, fishing grounds, dredging site?
18:44:00  *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@] has joined #openttd
18:44:04  <V453000> yeah it is a nice feature andy
18:44:06  <V453000> keep that
18:44:11  <frosch123> keep, gives a usecase for ships
18:44:23  <frosch123> i like transfers, and hate station walking, so easy choice for me
18:44:45  <andythenorth> it’s mostly there so you can build a train station next to your fishing grounds
18:46:57  <andythenorth> clustering, we like?
18:47:08  <V453000> NO.
18:47:11  <V453000> I for one, not one bit
18:47:22  <V453000> it would at least be nice if it would not be pure clustering
18:47:33  <V453000> like if there was at least some chance to have some stray industries away from the cluster
18:48:03  <andythenorth> fewer industries per cluster, higher production
18:48:52  <andythenorth> ?
18:49:37  <planetmaker> sounds like a fundamental issue to decide before a set is started ;)
18:49:53  <andythenorth> kind of wondering about having a design
18:50:01  <andythenorth> designs are apparently good :P
18:50:38  <andythenorth> also goals
18:51:01  <andythenorth> “FIRS annoys me” is not much a good reason for a new one
18:51:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i love clustering
18:51:10  *** gelignite [] has joined #openttd
18:52:02  <planetmaker> clustering is the only nice, unique and obvious industry placement rule I've seen other than TTD original
18:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> also, if station rating could be made as independent GRF would be cool
18:52:40  <andythenorth> someone should just extract that from FIRS
18:53:23  *** shirish [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
18:55:45  <andythenorth> clustering just needs optimising
18:55:50  <andythenorth> per map size, per economy
18:56:10  <V453000> some clustering perhaps, keep, but I would really like if it would be less strict
18:56:16  <V453000> e.g. now you can find farms ONLY in huge clusters
18:56:35  <andythenorth> I think that’s a bug
18:56:46  <V453000> well it works that way with kind of everything
18:57:12  <V453000> farms are probably easier to see because they are in higher numbers
18:57:35  <andythenorth> I think it fails to account for map size correctly
18:57:44  <andythenorth> and for number of industry types in economy
18:58:28  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
18:58:42  <planetmaker> I'm not convinced that there's any bug in farm amount for map size
18:59:01  <planetmaker> they're small output industries, thus come in a handful at once.
18:59:21  <planetmaker> And the clusters are scaled by map size appropriately last time I checked that code
18:59:44  <andythenorth> there is something amiss somewhere
18:59:49  <andythenorth> notably in the smaller economies
19:00:06  <andythenorth> perhaps there needs to be a max cluster size, but that’s hard to enforce
19:02:37  *** shirish [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:02:56  <andythenorth> I prefer clusters of 3 or so farms
19:03:10  <andythenorth> more than that becomes an overwhelming number of feeders
19:03:14  <Eddi|zuHause> no, just have a useful average cluster size (as in (predicted number of industry)/(number of 'seed' industries))
19:03:46  <Eddi|zuHause> also, maybe try to cluster same farm types together, not different farm types
19:04:07  <andythenorth> it does only cluster same types currently
19:04:23  <Eddi|zuHause> a wheat farm next to an animal farm kinda makes for bad feeders
19:04:26  <andythenorth> but there’s nothing to avoid overlapping cluster of other types
19:04:33  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe my map just was too small
19:04:35  <andythenorth> this is a good point
19:04:49  <andythenorth> overlapping other types increases the annoyance with delivering supplies
19:05:46  <Eddi|zuHause> larger minimum distance between farms maybe, to spread out the clusters a bit
19:06:37  <andythenorth> +1
19:08:11  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, firs clusters currently are farm mono-cultures
19:09:44  <andythenorth> maybe a GS should build them :P
19:09:49  <andythenorth> for fine-grained control
19:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see that working well
19:11:00  <andythenorth> I don’t see it adding much beyond what’s already possible, if newgrf handles it carefully
19:11:32  <andythenorth> I do think farms need higher base production
19:11:46  <andythenorth> the original case was “andythenorth doesn’t like long queues of trucks at every farm"
19:11:57  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe not base production, but boosted production
19:12:00  <andythenorth> with the intention also of adding a truck set with 15t trucks (realisms)
19:16:16  <andythenorth> bogus case
19:16:48  *** berndj [] has joined #openttd
19:16:49  <andythenorth> farm production should be ~similar to mines and such
19:18:57  <Eddi|zuHause> ... there is cat
19:21:09  <andythenorth> at last
19:21:13  <andythenorth> mystery solved
19:26:02  <andythenorth> was there any conclusion on delivering cargo to more than one industry in a station catchment?
19:26:10  <andythenorth> iirc, it was “nah, that’s cheating”?
19:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> that was almost certainly not it
19:29:03  <frosch123> there was a "will be fixed along catchment area" :p
19:30:02  <andythenorth> it’s relevant w.r.t clustering
19:30:10  <andythenorth> and what min. distance to enforce in a cluster
19:30:47  <Eddi|zuHause> it probably won't happen in the near future
19:31:58  <andythenorth> probably worth pushing up min distance within a cluster then
19:33:06  <andythenorth> cases like this are silly
19:33:20  <andythenorth> the RV is just enforcing round-robin supplies
19:40:38  <V453000> I dont see any rawr there andythenorth  :P
19:41:21  <andythenorth> eNoRAWR
19:49:45  <andythenorth> renaming water-industry stations? o_O
19:49:48  <andythenorth> apparently
19:53:42  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing that should concern you at all
20:02:36  <andythenorth> seems to be just how the game works
20:07:22  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
20:09:54  <andythenorth> is there a hotkey for ‘no loading’ when setting orders?
20:10:00  <andythenorth> similar to ctrl for ‘full load'
20:11:11  *** dreck [] has joined #openttd
20:11:16  <dreck> hi
20:11:50  <dreck> just wanted to check with someone but what is settings_newgame even used for at all?
20:12:56  *** Yexo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:12:56  *** Osai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:14:31  <frosch123> you can configure settings while a game is running, and then start a new one
20:14:56  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:15:27  *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
20:15:28  <andythenorth> I use it very often
20:15:34  <andythenorth> for newgrf purposes
20:15:43  *** Hazzard [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:15:43  *** Ammler [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:15:58  *** V453000 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:03  *** SmatZ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:13  *** XeryusTC [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:14  *** ^Spike^ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:14  *** Hirundo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:16  *** tneo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:19  *** planetmaker [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:28  *** Terkhen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:31  *** avdg [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:51  *** Pereba [] has joined #openttd
20:18:21  <dreck> well I'm wondering if rcon can be broken by something then because rcon settings errors about not being able to do that in network games .. but settings_newgame gets wiped out as soon as the actual new game loads apparently (or thats what I seem to be getting from short talk with ngc)
20:18:33  <dreck> or maybe it just wasn't meant for that..I dunno...still looking
20:19:30  <frosch123> there are conflicting settings
20:19:41  <frosch123> e.g reloading-cfg-from-disk-on-newgame will revert it
20:19:51  <frosch123> and loading a scenario or savegame will also not care about it
20:22:58  <andythenorth> maybe I don’t use that setting :P
20:23:07  <andythenorth> maybe I misunderstood again :)
20:23:36  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit []
20:24:50  <andythenorth> hmm FIRS Brickworks using wrong ext text
20:24:52  <andythenorth> extra *
20:25:16  <andythenorth> code looks correct afaict
20:25:19  <andythenorth> bad compile?
20:26:16  <dreck> frosch ah now that does make a bit more sense of things.. reloading old cfg in new game ... not sure why I didn't read any tidbits about that
20:26:24  <dreck> thanks, I guess I'll let him know about that too
20:29:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: first thing to check is that you're actually testing the right compile
20:29:44  <dreck> hm well one quick related question if you don't mind .. is 'rcon settings' (as in for the current game) supposed to be limited in its actual useage or thats up to the particular setup of openttd itself?
20:30:23  <andythenorth> first thing is to find a charger, out of battery
20:30:28  <frosch123> some settings cannot be changed in a running game
20:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: some settings are limited by the game logic
20:30:46  <dreck> I assume bridge length would be one of these? :)
20:30:48  <frosch123> multiplayer is somewhat more strict than singleplayer
20:31:02  <frosch123> anyway, it will tell you if it is not allowed
20:31:02  <dreck> thanks for confirming it anyway ^ :)
20:31:24  <dreck> at least I don't have to pester ngc on all things..I still can pause the game and whatsnot
20:31:42  *** ^ekipS^ [] has joined #openttd
20:32:17  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
20:33:58  <Wolf01> hi o/
20:34:04  <dreck> hi wolf?  :)
20:34:11  <andythenorth> Wolf01: you’ve been to EB today?
20:34:16  <andythenorth> Nuremberg pictures
20:34:20  <Wolf01> yeah
20:34:27  <Wolf01> the new mercedes will be mine!
20:34:40  <andythenorth> so is the digger any good?
20:34:42  <andythenorth> also
20:35:22  <Wolf01> yes, it's really cool, not much time to play with but is really pleasant to build and see
20:35:37  <Wolf01> (if you meant the volvo)
20:35:52  <andythenorth> yes
20:36:43  <Wolf01> the new servo motor is wonderful, it has an auto-center feature so you won't get mad with the steering
20:38:27  <andythenorth> yeah, I have one :)
20:41:16  <Wolf01> I purchased the "ultra agents mobile base" too (the one with the truck), I found it at the mall with 30€ discount (€69 instead of €99) :O
20:41:24  <Wolf01> more pieces for MOCs :P
20:42:43  <andythenorth> my kids have started unMOCing
20:42:48  <andythenorth> they just break everything :P
20:42:53  <Wolf01> ahah
20:46:12  <andythenorth> is it possible that nml is mangling strings?
20:46:23  <andythenorth> I’ve triple-checked FIRS code
20:46:55  <Eddi|zuHause> nml is doing all sorts of things to strings
20:47:04  <dreck> :->
20:47:21  <Eddi|zuHause> if you think it's a bug, report it.
20:47:48  <andythenorth> want to rule out user error first
20:49:26  <Eddi|zuHause> if you think it's an nml bug, try different versions of nml
20:52:15  <andythenorth> it’s user error
20:53:04  <andythenorth> multiple industries share same ID (I’ve run out of IDs)
20:53:10  <andythenorth> thought that would work, but doesn’t
20:54:34  <andythenorth> FIRS really needs rewritten
20:54:51  <andythenorth> I’m chasing my tail, adding things introduces bugs
20:55:50  <andythenorth> would it be better to have one grf per economy?
20:56:18  <peter1138> Have one grf but universe.
20:57:00  <andythenorth> sounds like a lyric, maybe bowie
20:57:04  *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd []
20:57:14  <peter1138> Yeah... per... not but...
20:58:25  <andythenorth> one grf for all trains, boats, industries and crap? o_O
20:58:31  <Eddi|zuHause> bowie sang about grfs?
20:58:33  <andythenorth> just call it grf
20:58:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sharing IDs is probably easy, if designed correctly
20:59:12  <andythenorth> needs wrapping up in action 6 or whatever it is that nml is hiding from me
20:59:14  *** Dawnkeeper [] has joined #openttd
20:59:19  <andythenorth> the entire industry probably
20:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> if you use old-style callbacks, you can just add a switch before the callback switch that checks the economy
21:01:28  <andythenorth> good point
21:02:13  <andythenorth> I am concerned about growth in compile times from wrapping too many things in “if economy == x”
21:03:20  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't have a lot of effect on compile time. but you cannot wrap callbacks in if-blocks
21:03:57  <Dawnkeeper> is it just me or is the service interval in percent used the other way around as it is described?
21:05:17  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: :o I didn’t know that cbs couldn’t be wrapped
21:05:27  <andythenorth> that forces a change of approach
21:05:44  *** Mek_ [] has joined #openttd
21:06:27  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, if you use old-style callbacks, a simple switch will do, otherwise you need to replicate the switch for each callback
21:06:44  <Eddi|zuHause> which should be easy if you use a code generator :)
21:06:55  <andythenorth> my plan is to use a code generator
21:07:23  *** Nothing4You [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:08:09  <andythenorth> my plan was also to assign industry and cargo ids per economy, or rather, not worry about assigning them at all, just use the order in python step of compile
21:08:37  <andythenorth> managing IDs is pointless, machine can do that
21:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> managing IDs is what you need if you want the chance to upgrade during the game
21:09:33  <andythenorth> I don’t
21:09:41  *** Nothing4You [] has joined #openttd
21:09:52  <andythenorth> or rather, I’m prepared to bump min. savegame version frequently
21:10:13  *** Mek [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:10:24  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "frequently" would be "every single compile"
21:10:41  <andythenorth> you don’t trust the order of a python list?
21:10:54  <andythenorth> I thought they were deteministic?
21:11:02  <andythenorth> deterministic *
21:11:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how you use it...
21:11:42  <andythenorth> list of industries (or cargos)
21:11:48  <andythenorth> take the id from position in list
21:13:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but we're talking about an algorithm that merges industries/cargos which are never part of the same economy
21:13:46  <andythenorth> list would be per economy
21:13:53  <Eddi|zuHause> which may be unstable
21:13:59  <andythenorth> cargo / industry ids might be totally different per economy
21:14:14  <andythenorth> dunno, there’s probably something I haven’t thought of that makes it unworkable
21:14:24  *** Mek_ [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:14:29  *** planetmaker [] has joined #openttd
21:14:32  *** mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by ChanServ
21:14:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like the same cargo should get the same ID regardless of economy
21:14:42  <andythenorth> any reason?
21:15:30  <Eddi|zuHause> internal handling stuff, that i won't bother to look up now
21:16:25  <andythenorth> in some respects, it would be much simpler to generate one grf per economy
21:16:33  <andythenorth> also faster compile
21:16:48  <andythenorth> worse for players?
21:18:26  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:19:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it matters for players. i didn't do it in CETS because loads of things would be duplicated, but that's less of an issue for industry sets, because you can only load one of them simultaneously
21:19:53  <andythenorth> makes release management harder
21:19:57  <andythenorth> more bananas work
21:20:16  <Eddi|zuHause> bananas work can be automatted
21:20:38  <planetmaker> silicon valley has a make bananas target ;)
21:21:27  <andythenorth> Choosing basic economy automatically against chosen climate would be tricky :)
21:22:06  <andythenorth> but eh
21:22:13  <andythenorth> it’s worth considering
21:22:24  <andythenorth> the code generation than needs doing is about same either way
21:22:41  <andythenorth> fewer industries should mean faster compile for any single grf
21:22:57  <andythenorth> and fewer unexpected problems due to overlapping IDs
21:23:00  <planetmaker> and fixing 5 newgrfs for a single bug ;)
21:23:06  <andythenorth> :(
21:23:22  <planetmaker> I can tell you about that very well from OpenGFX*
21:23:26  <planetmaker> Damn well annoying
21:24:58  <andythenorth> I had missed that action 7 can’t skip action 2s
21:25:07  <andythenorth> that does bork my plan :P
21:25:33  <andythenorth> I was considering generating entire economy: cargos, industries, wrapped in an action 7
21:25:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you can implement in nmlc that if-blocks on callbacks get converted to switch blocks
21:26:10  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
21:26:47  <Eddi|zuHause> needs collecting all graphics blocks with their nested if-conditions, and combining them into one switch that is called from the action3
21:27:07  <Eddi|zuHause> it should be possible
21:28:48  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
21:32:51  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
21:33:45  *** Mek [] has joined #openttd
21:46:55  *** Mek [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:52:43  *** Mek [] has joined #openttd
21:55:27  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
21:59:22  *** Hazzard [] has joined #openttd
21:59:48  *** SmatZ [] has joined #openttd
21:59:52  *** ^Spike^ [] has joined #openttd
22:00:29  *** gelignite [] has quit [Quit:]
22:00:49  *** Terkhen [] has joined #openttd
22:00:49  *** V453000 [] has joined #openttd
22:00:52  *** mode/#openttd [+o Terkhen] by ChanServ
22:01:17  *** ^ekipS^ [] has quit [Quit: ( :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: )]
22:01:21  *** avdg [] has joined #openttd
22:01:21  *** Yexo [] has joined #openttd
22:01:34  *** pm [] has joined #openttd
22:01:37  *** mode/#openttd [+o pm] by ChanServ
22:02:16  *** XeryusTC [] has joined #openttd
22:02:21  *** tneo [] has joined #openttd
22:02:59  <dreck> that sorta reminds cargo/industry still set to 37 ids?
22:03:02  *** deniz1a [~kvirc@] has joined #openttd
22:03:09  *** planetmaker [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
22:03:09  *** pm is now known as planetmaker
22:03:17  *** Hirundo [] has joined #openttd
22:03:21  *** fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
22:03:37  <deniz1a> can you install different versions of openttd at the same time?
22:03:43  <frosch123> 32 cargo, 64 industries
22:03:52  *** Ammler [] has joined #openttd
22:03:59  <frosch123> deniz1a: yes, don't use the installer, but extract the zip to a different folder
22:04:00  <deniz1a> do i have to uninstall 1.4 to test 1.5?
22:04:19  *** Osai [] has joined #openttd
22:04:24  <frosch123> the installer will replace an existing installation afaik, so use the zip
22:04:35  <deniz1a> ok. but does it use the same game settings folder etc that are stored in my documents?
22:04:46  <frosch123> by default yes
22:05:32  <deniz1a> ok, thanks
22:06:21  <dreck> ah mm has it been at 64 for quite a while or more or less just recently?
22:06:26  <Wolf01> deniz1a: you can make a stand alone installation by copying the openttd.cfg and the other files in the folder you extracted the zip
22:06:35  <dreck> but thanks..I wasn't going to use more than 20 cargos..nice to know that still
22:06:42  <frosch123> dreck: it has been always those limits in ottd
22:06:48  <Wolf01> it's also portable, you can have it in a thumb drive
22:06:52  <dreck> right, cheers
22:06:57  <frosch123> ttdp has 37 industry limit or similar odd number
22:07:17  <frosch123> the wiki knows it more precise
22:07:18  <planetmaker> that's a pretty weired one :)
22:07:29  <frosch123> it's the amount of original industries of all climates
22:07:43  <frosch123> ttdp was unable to extent the number, so just overwrites existing ones
22:07:46  <planetmaker> still :)
22:07:51  <dreck> mm, yeah I guess I'll look into the actions for industry selection then when that time eventually comes..cheers :)
22:08:16  *** deniz1a [~kvirc@] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium]
22:15:24  *** Dawnkeeper [] has quit []
22:17:31  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
22:17:33  <Wolf01> 'night
22:17:38  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:20:38  *** Haube [~Michi@] has joined #openttd
22:24:38  *** Haube2 [~Michi@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:27:50  *** itsatacoshop247 [~itsatacos@2601:9:1180:237:f16d:3c7a:3ff5:b6bc] has joined #openttd
22:37:55  *** tycoondemon [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:38:12  *** tycoondemon [] has joined #openttd
22:42:53  *** liq3 [] has joined #openttd
22:45:04  *** shirish [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
22:45:57  *** shirish_ [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
22:59:16  *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@] has quit [Quit:  HydraIRC -> <- It'll be on slashdot one day...]
23:11:58  *** shirish_ [~quassel@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:12:15  *** liq3 [] has quit []
23:18:03  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
23:24:22  *** Pereba [] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by beer (]
23:30:43  *** zooks [] has joined #openttd
23:31:01  *** itsatacoshop247 [~itsatacos@2601:9:1180:237:f16d:3c7a:3ff5:b6bc] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:32:49  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:34:04  *** Haube [~Michi@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:36:31  *** itsatacoshop247 [~itsatacos@2601:9:1180:237:b846:c1da:4aca:e0c7] has joined #openttd
23:47:21  *** dreck [] has left #openttd []
23:56:18  *** zooks [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk