Log for #openttd on 4th February 2015:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:04:43  <samu> what does the [] in the grid mean? the [18] thing
00:04:56  <samu> that's not where the station is
00:05:53  <samu> the north corner is not [18], it's 19
00:06:17  <samu> oh crap, i mean 1A
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00:06:44  <samu> that's also where the station is, i believe, if im interpreting this correctly
00:07:01  <Eddi|zuHause> north is not where you think it is
00:07:48  <samu> station is located at 1A? at least when I observe on the minimap, that's where it is
00:08:21  <samu> then is it simulating an invisible docks?
00:08:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
00:08:36  <samu> 1A, then [18], then water
00:08:47  <samu> that water to the left of [18] is where the ship dicks
00:08:49  <samu> oops docks
00:08:56  <Eddi|zuHause> no
00:09:01  <samu> no? yes
00:09:01  <dreck> well samu how else did it have that not-company-owned station name hoving above the oilrig you know, right? ;)
00:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the ship docks where the "xx" is
00:09:14  <dreck> same thing used by the fishing ground in mb and andy's industry grfs
00:09:24  <samu> no, that's not there
00:09:43  <samu> are you sure? doesn't make sense then, when i look at the others
00:09:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's just mirrored and rotated in a weird way
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00:15:54  <samu> :) I'm getting there
00:17:02  <samu> so i need to write all those tiles? even the blank ones? or just add the "xx"?
00:17:11  <samu> ones
00:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> you can skip the empty tiles
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00:30:01  <Eddi|zuHause> for the "xx" tiles you write "clear", for the other tiles, you write 0x18 etc.
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01:20:56  <samu> anyone here?
01:21:42  * dreck pokes samu with some pixels?
01:21:45  <dreck> heh
01:22:05  <samu>
01:22:14  <samu> is it something like this?
01:22:46  <samu> i just tried to figure out the syntax for the first line but no idea what goes there
01:30:18  <Sylf> for nml code sharing, try - it supports nml syntax highlighting :)
01:37:20  <samu>
01:37:32  <samu> so... whatever
01:38:29  <samu> what goes into the first line?
01:38:49  <samu> and is the rest to be like that?
01:39:26  <Sylf>
01:39:29  <Sylf> so yes, it's like that
01:40:09  <Sylf> of course, if you set all tiles to "clear", you won't have anything on the map
01:40:20  <samu> hmm so what do i do with this piece of text?
01:40:28  <samu> it's for the oil rig
01:40:53  <Sylf> let me go read the backlog first
01:41:12  <Sylf> that chunk of code by itself doesn't tell me anything
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01:43:03  <Sylf> you're trying to recreate oil rig?
01:43:32  <samu> yes, but with those "xx" tiles around it
01:43:35  <Supercheese> trying to prevent oil rigs from being created too close to each other
01:44:13  <Sylf> so, we can reuse the default oil rig sprites
01:44:34  <samu> yes
01:45:15  <Sylf> but in order to use them, I think the sprites need to be defined, and specify that you're using those graphics
01:45:31  <samu> that's the part I don't understand
01:45:36  <Supercheese> he can use the override & substitute
01:45:38  <samu> i know i am missing something
01:45:44  <Supercheese> to re-use the sprites
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01:46:50  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: sprites are used by IndustryTile, not by Industry
01:47:01  <Sylf> it would be easiest to download the opengfx+ industries source and study that
01:47:14  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: since you're reusing the default IndustryTiles, you don't need to add anything
01:48:58  <samu> my head is attempting to decipher what you're telling me...
01:48:59  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: however, your tilelayout must be used by an actual industry that you override
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01:50:05  <dreck> sorry to ask this (especially to eddi perhaps) but can you set a single wagon to have different capacity per assigned cargotypes or its a bit complex to bother doing that code-wise? (eg it could be 20 tonnes of coal but only 17 tonnes of ore for example)
01:50:34  <Eddi|zuHause> dreck: there's a capacity callback for that
01:50:58  <Sylf> OpenGFX+ trains might do some of that - not too sure
01:51:21  <Sylf> On flat car, only some steel, but much more capacity for wood, etc
01:52:04  <Supercheese> yeah, vary capacity based on cargo_type_in_veh
01:52:28  <dreck> oh, geeze I was thinking vars not callbacks..I see it now
01:52:32  <dreck> thanks a lot -_-
01:55:29  <dreck> supercheese nothing like an entire wagonload of one cargo weighting the same as one single crate of machines in the same wagon :)
01:55:41  <dreck> (just saying..I dunno why I had to heh)
01:57:31  <Eddi|zuHause> 1 ton of feathers weighs the same as 1 ton of steel
01:58:06  <Supercheese> 1 ton of metal does not weigh the same as one bag of mail
01:58:19  <Supercheese> or bale of wool
01:58:29  <Supercheese> or crate of farm supplies, etc.
01:58:35  <samu> im reading here,
01:59:13  <samu> item (FEAT_INDUSTRIES?
02:00:30  <Supercheese> I guess the cargo weight parameter sort of compensates for the discrepancies
02:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: so what is the question?
02:00:57  <samu> no idea i really don't know
02:01:19  <samu> i don't understand what I need to look for
02:01:25  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: so maybe you should read the tutorial?
02:01:47  <samu> i don't have time now
02:02:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have time either.
02:02:25  <samu> i mean i have to go sleep
02:02:41  <samu> is it far from finished?
02:03:07  <Supercheese> NML tutorial is great
02:03:08  <samu> wanted to finish this part today and continue tomorrow
02:03:14  <Eddi|zuHause> about 10 minutes if you're skilled
02:03:29  <Eddi|zuHause> about 2 hours if you're not
02:03:59  <samu> ouch, i really have to go though, sorry, parents are hurrying me
02:05:31  <dreck> supercheese you're exactly right about everything you just said about weight :)
02:05:48  <samu> well, cyas all, thx for the help so far. I'll do the rest tomorrow, promise.
02:06:18  <dreck> but anyway think I pretty much got no pending issues left ... going see when I'll finish the first draft of the vehicles list before passing it onto friend for coding
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02:33:55  <dreck> anyway break for bedtime
02:34:07  * dreck lets several random wagons loose in here
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02:38:22  <Eddi|zuHause> how or why is the forum backup running at this time?
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03:36:25  <Sylf> the forum backup is sure taking a long time tonight
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03:42:06  <supermop> yo
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06:04:03  <Pikkaphone> what happens
06:04:51  <V453000> mayhem
06:05:13  <V453000> whats wrong? :)
06:10:17  <Pikkaphone> who can say?
06:11:46  <V453000> question is good
06:12:50  <Pikkaphone> what did you do to the forums?
06:19:25  <V453000> oh forums borken :D
06:19:29  <V453000> me, nothing :?>
06:19:45  <V453000> also I might be starting a new project, I think rendered trains in 8/8 look just way too short
06:20:00  <V453000> chubby-ish as you said or so
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06:27:54  <V453000> just want to make everything longer
06:27:56  <V453000> twice. :)
06:31:20  <supermop> we need 4 tile long train cars...?
06:31:54  <V453000> no everything 1 tile :P max
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06:40:23  <supermop> textures are such a pain
06:40:36  <supermop> want to render everything in uniform grey
06:45:39  <V453000> the zbase way! :D
06:45:50  <V453000> what issues are you having with textures?
06:45:52  <V453000> mapping?
06:49:28  <supermop> a little, but that i can slog through
06:49:35  <supermop> more color correction
06:49:53  <supermop> the stone i use for curbs and for cobbles should be same color
06:50:04  <supermop> very hard to get that in PS
06:50:14  <supermop> asphalt should be similar
06:50:58  <supermop> and i only have one good bluestone for curbs/sidewalks
06:51:25  <V453000> well the question is whether it is necessary to make them similar color :)
06:51:46  <V453000> variety etc yknow
06:52:04  <supermop> trying to find other images of the same stone for variety that are same exposure and color balance is a pain
06:52:20  <V453000> I wouldnt bother with it that much
06:52:32  <supermop> one think about this city is that they use the same rock for everything
06:53:14  <supermop> next up is bricks on houses
06:53:29  <supermop> and getting them to align with windows
06:54:24  <V453000> that is relatively easy
06:54:31  <V453000> but again, at x4 bricks are generally rather invisible
06:55:32  <supermop>
06:55:55  <supermop> they do this thing with patterns of yellow bricks set into dark bricks
06:56:51  <supermop>
06:57:37  <V453000> I dont know what options rhino has, but if you want to do this kind of details make sure you check out some form of UVW unwrapping
06:57:56  <V453000> in 3DS MAX the function is called Unwrap UVW
06:58:31  <supermop> i think thats in rhino just going to be some work figuring it out
06:58:47  <V453000> helps a lot, lets you texture anything any way  you like
06:59:06  <V453000> I use it very often ... not for all objects, but often
06:59:36  <V453000> e.g. Roads for RAWR ... I created the model, unwrapped it, and added the roads in photoshop
07:00:34  <supermop> i am just debating those decorative bricks - if my facades are standardized i may be able to reuse the texture, but i may need to make the texture by hand in the first place
07:01:11  <V453000> well sure, just pointing to a tool that could help you a ton
07:01:29  <Flygon> supermop: I feel sorry for everyone that livees in Abbotsford
07:01:53  * Flygon resumes figuring out how the hell muscles work
07:02:40  <supermop> yeah ill try it
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07:30:40  <Supercheese> Forum's dead, Jim
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07:40:22  <V453000> död
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07:53:54  <Celestar1> morning
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08:18:15  <Supercheese> Forum yet lives
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08:58:49  <supermop> rhino - at least v4 - does not really have that
08:59:15  <supermop> something about how nurbs surfaces dont work that way
08:59:28  <supermop> but v5 has a way to do emulate it
08:59:33  <V453000> hm
08:59:39  <V453000> idk I dont model in nurbs
09:00:07  <supermop> there are all sorts of esoteric uvw mapping options in v4 that ive never touched before though
09:00:14  <V453000> :)
09:00:21  <supermop> so i think its just a matter of me exploring those
09:03:56  <__ln__>
09:04:50  <supermop> off to print stuff
09:05:06  <argoneus> good morning train friends
09:06:06  <V453000> yeah probably :)
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10:38:42  <andythenorth> oh he gone
11:00:20  <supermop> elusive pikka
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11:00:44  <andythenorth> and his phone
11:01:30  <supermop> hmm i need an android irc client
11:04:24  <supermop> i've found a coffee grinder that has a website reminiscent of audiophile woo peddlers, and now it is serving me ads on the fora
11:05:02  <supermop> I wonder if a clever little clock would improve my coffee
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12:32:09  * andythenorth wonders how to spell “over-engineering”
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12:36:45  <V453000> no clue but as long as people understand what you mean ... :P
12:37:08  * andythenorth is providing wtf amount of detail in nml code
12:37:12  <andythenorth> probably a bad idea
12:37:14  <V453000> ... P.S. my over-engineered DOOM concept will bring utter madness :>
12:37:29  <V453000> I already found wtf utility for the things
12:37:50  <V453000> ultra articulated "horse" carriage?
12:37:53  <V453000> priceless
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12:39:40  <V453000> except pigcows are much stronger than some flimsy horses
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12:40:47  <andythenorth> considered these in HEQS :P
12:41:33  <V453000> XD
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12:53:48  <supermop> i used to see that stuf in stores and wonder what the hell kind of tagline that was
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13:09:28  <supermop> night
13:13:28  <V453000> hm, to model in 100% or 140% :)
13:13:31  <V453000> question is big
13:14:03  <andythenorth> 140%
13:14:09  <andythenorth> moar
13:14:23  <V453000> and downscale it for 100% ? :D
13:14:28  <V453000> sounds wtf
13:14:36  <andythenorth> moar is better always
13:14:42  <andythenorth> or is it? o_O
13:15:04  <b_jonas> V453000: is this about diagonal carriages?
13:15:22  <V453000> yes
13:15:34  <V453000> diagonal is 140% of normal straight direction
13:15:50  <V453000> in NUTS I just stretch the short version, and model in 100%
13:15:55  <V453000> what if I model in 140% :D
13:16:03  <V453000> and shrink down the normal tracks
13:17:21  <V453000> I was just talking shit to supermop how 12m is a bad scale for 1 tile and I am going to use 14? :D
13:17:22  <V453000> well done
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13:17:49  <andythenorth> ‘scale’?
13:17:52  <andythenorth> wtf is scale?
13:18:37  <andythenorth> this is some grid size thing in 3DSMax or what?
13:18:55  <V453000> yeah, units :)
13:19:08  <V453000> size of 1 model tile
13:20:38  <andythenorth> do 16
13:20:43  <andythenorth> or 8
13:20:48  <andythenorth> powers of 2 innit
13:20:54  <V453000> 10 is nice
13:21:06  * andythenorth has no clue why powers of 2 would be better, just saying words
13:23:36  <andythenorth> FIRS location checks are wtf
13:39:05  * andythenorth wonders why not automate conflicting industry check?
13:39:16  <andythenorth> with a conflicting industries property
13:39:40  <andythenorth> or by checking produced / accepted cargo at all other industries
13:50:44  <V453000> hm
13:51:07  <V453000> both are compromise-stretched XD
13:56:01  <V453000> kind of.
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13:58:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that cone shape is weird
13:58:47  <Eddi|zuHause> all steam engines i have ever seen were cylindrical shape
14:00:15  <andythenorth> too realisms
14:00:55  <andythenorth> moar
14:01:28  <andythenorth> or even (this is the only steam punk thing I really like)
14:01:45  <V453000> yeah it looks strange to me too Eddi, it isnt my model, I just got it with some tutorial so I am testing stuff with it
14:01:54  <V453000> more focused on the stretching atm :)
14:02:20  <andythenorth> this is awesome
14:02:39  <V453000> yes :) design of the model is irrelevant now :P I like those things too
14:03:23  <V453000> just took this cause showint it on a box isnt very helpful :P
14:04:09  <V453000> hm I think I will end up with something like model in 120%
14:04:12  <V453000> as a compromise
14:04:24  <V453000> 12m = 1 tile scale =D
14:05:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i never had lego trains
14:05:26  <Eddi|zuHause> only the monorail-ish airport shuttle
14:05:53  <V453000> they are a bit short but it isnt a disaster I think
14:06:09  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: my tiles are 32m
14:06:19  <Eddi|zuHause> for train length purposes
14:06:20  <V453000> your tiles dont exist :P
14:07:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i was considering 24m, but that would have made trains too long
14:07:41  <Eddi|zuHause> modern passenger wagons are ca. 26m
14:07:46  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if you have that shuttle still, it’s one of the most sought-after collectors items :P
14:08:01  <andythenorth> V453000: that looks better, more chibi
14:08:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it should be somewhere...
14:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i also have the space version
14:08:30  <andythenorth>
14:08:34  <V453000> yeah I like this more too
14:09:52  <V453000> or do I
14:09:54  <V453000> idk :)
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14:15:40  <samu> hi
14:20:46  <V453000> haha so I will model in 120% length, with 1 tile being 10m and I will just move camera to 83% so it renders correctly =D
14:20:50  <V453000> compromise!
14:21:35  <V453000> so in both views the vehicle will be streched by about 15,5% or such
14:21:45  <V453000> one to be longer, one to be shorter :)
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14:44:12  <samu> what is the paste site?
14:44:17  <samu> openttdcop
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14:44:53  <samu> ops, i closed this window
14:46:31  <samu> ok, I got this
14:46:33  <samu>
14:46:45  <samu> the whole .nml file so far
14:48:33  <samu> what is wrong and what is right?
14:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> the order is wrong, the tilelayout must be defined before it is used
14:57:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't comment on whether "location_check" is right
14:58:43  <samu> I switch item block with tilelayout block?
14:58:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:00:16  <samu> what is location_check?
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15:21:57  <samu> ←[Knmlc ERROR: Syntax error, unexpected end-of-file
15:22:02  <samu> :(
15:30:25  <samu> line 76 . unrecognized identifier 'oil_rig_layout'
15:30:29  <samu> hmm :(
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15:47:30  <planetmaker> samu, a tile_layout is an industry property which describes how the industry looks like on the map. It is not a valid result for a location_check callback.
15:47:51  <planetmaker> check opengfx+industries, yeti or firs for examples
15:50:07  <planetmaker> actually, to be precise, the industry property is called layouts which takes a list of names of tilelayouts
15:53:59  <samu> item (FEAT_INDUSTRIES or item (FEAT_INDUSTRYTILES?
15:54:08  <samu> brb
15:55:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you are running in circles.
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16:00:16  <NGC3982> tjaba.
16:04:12  <samu> let me see if I understand, I have the layout ready, now I have to give it a name, then this name is picked from a list by an industry property that choses layouts. which FEAT does this property belong to?
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16:07:12  <samu> i downloaded opengfx+industries, but they're in .grf files, how do I convert that to .nml?
16:08:47  <Alberth> donwnload the sources from the project
16:09:06  <samu> no idea what that means
16:09:50  <Alberth>
16:10:32  <Alberth> ^ are files that are written by the opengfx+industries authors and compiled to .grf
16:11:18  <Alberth> so use those as starting point or for examining how things are done
16:13:12  <samu> i navigated to this
16:13:13  <samu>
16:14:51  <planetmaker> well. OpenGFX+Industries does not change much from the original oil rig. Thus what you look for is not found for *that* industry
16:15:27  <Alberth> hi hi
16:15:33  <planetmaker> hi hi :)
16:15:44  <Alberth> you finished step 1 already, samu?
16:16:22  <planetmaker> maybe, for your purpose yeti or firs are more suitable. most likely yeti is the simpler, thus easier to understand code
16:17:14  <samu> for step 1, the grf was listed in OpenTTD, does it mean it works?
16:17:50  <Alberth> you could run a game too?   nice!
16:18:21  <samu> yes, it started, but I don't notice anything different, it just says it's running that grf
16:19:03  <Alberth> you can change something simple, like accepted or produced cargoes
16:19:09  <samu> Active NewGRF files
16:19:13  <samu> Oil Rig 1
16:19:20  <samu> that was the name I put to i
16:19:21  <samu> t
16:19:49  <Alberth> yeah, but did the game also build the oilrig you put into it?
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16:20:03  <Alberth> by making a simple change in the oilrig itself, you can find out
16:20:03  <dreck> hi
16:20:08  <Alberth>  o/
16:20:13  <samu> no, step 1 was to see if grf would show up
16:20:13  <dreck> eh samu still here? :)
16:20:15  <samu> ya
16:20:17  <dreck> heh thought so :P
16:20:34  <dreck> alberth's first line for me coming in...I could guess too well
16:20:38  <Alberth> but getting it loading is a good start
16:20:57  <samu> i had issues with utf-8 thingy
16:21:05  <samu> but i am now using notepad ++
16:21:47  <Alberth> dreck: ?  "o/" means "hello" (a person raising his arm waving hi)
16:22:49  <dreck> alberth no I meant "change in the oilrig itself" .. that made me thinking ... 'is samu still here on the same coding project'? and sure I was right on
16:22:51  <dreck> :)
16:23:01  <Alberth> ok :)
16:23:13  <dreck> np anyway :)
16:23:42  * dreck doesn't really have any coding problems just yet anyway
16:23:48  <samu> i dont know the sites of those projects
16:23:54  <samu> yeti?
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16:24:41  <Alberth>  <-- contains a list of all projects there
16:25:10  <Alberth> but in general, re-use the same url, with a different project name :)
16:25:15  <dreck> well...I may have to ask how to do the te-changing refit but thats for another week tho
16:26:03  <Alberth> stronger te if you load fuel? :)
16:26:04  <Eddi|zuHause> te changing refit is a bad concept
16:26:22  <samu> there is no Yeti
16:26:26  <Eddi|zuHause> because refit needs a cargo, most engines don't load cargo.
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16:27:22  <Alberth> samu: try a case-insentive search
16:27:29  <Alberth> *insensitive
16:28:20  <Alberth> people use all kinds of upper and lower case letter combinations :)
16:32:59  <dreck> I know that we talked about it before eddi but I'll wait and see what happens to the two sets of special case locomotives since this is still the early-draft tracking table yet
16:35:01  <samu> layouts:
16:35:07  <samu> ok, let's see
16:36:26  <samu> if i want to mention the oil rig, i type 05D?
16:36:35  <samu> no, not D
16:36:38  <samu> 05h
16:36:54  <samu> item (FEAT_INDUSTRIES, 05h?
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16:37:16  <Alberth> I really don't know
16:37:56  <samu> the example im looking at is this
16:37:58  <samu> item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, OIL_WELL, 10){
16:38:12  <samu> where is the list of industries?
16:38:27  <samu> what does 10 mean?
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16:45:09  <Alberth> the nml wiki on "item" should be able to answer such questions
16:50:08  <samu>
16:50:17  <samu> it created a .grf with that
16:50:24  <samu> now what will happen?
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17:01:57  <andythenorth> o/
17:02:09  <dreck> :)
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17:04:48  <roidal> hi
17:04:52  <samu> is it working?
17:04:57  <samu>
17:04:58  <dreck> hi roidal
17:05:43  <Alberth> o/
17:05:56  <roidal> i get a segfault with 1.4.4 64bit linux
17:06:04  <roidal> are there any known issues?
17:06:32  <Alberth> could have a look at
17:11:26  <roidal> i see, this is crashes if there is no graphic-set
17:12:07  <Alberth> that sounds like a problem :)
17:13:06  <Alberth> the sprite font is also in the graphics set, which makes it complicated to report anything, although maybe that got solved ??  I don't know
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17:13:21  <Alberth> please submit a bug report
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17:15:01  <roidal> it can be something with the font, i cant 3 font-errors befor the segfault
17:15:29  <roidal> cant -> get
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17:17:09  <Alberth> o/
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17:18:28  <frosch123> hai
17:18:46  <samu> looks like the grf is working
17:19:00  <planetmaker> \o
17:19:06  <samu> in the scenario editor i couldn't place the oil rigs
17:19:16  <samu> as close as I could without the grf
17:19:34  <samu> watch it
17:19:38  <planetmaker> roidal, there seems to be one crash report related to the window size specified in the openttd.cfg as (1,1)
17:20:00  <andythenorth> samu: 1 day’s work :)
17:20:03  <andythenorth> I predicted 2
17:20:44  <samu> oh
17:20:52  <samu> one thing I noticed was the placement
17:21:07  <samu> the tile I place the oil rig
17:21:19  <samu> is the 0,0 ?
17:21:27  <roidal> planetmaker: i deleted the openttd config/save directory
17:21:28  <samu> it was water
17:21:40  <samu> it wasn't centered
17:21:46  <samu> the placement was not the center
17:21:57  <roidal> planetmaker: so it was a try with clean config
17:22:23  <samu> how do I define the central tile when placing industries in the scenario editor?
17:22:24  <roidal> planetmaker: was able to fix it by puting opengfx-0.5.0.tar into the baseset directory
17:22:31  <andythenorth> there isn’t a central tile
17:22:53  <planetmaker> uh-hu. sounds like a (new) bug, roidal. Or one I didn't yet see for a long time
17:22:54  <andythenorth> 0,0 is usually top-right of industry
17:23:27  <samu> but there was a placement difference with my grf and without it
17:23:47  <andythenorth> you added more magic water tiles around the edge?
17:23:56  <samu> yes
17:24:00  <andythenorth> how many rows?
17:24:14  <samu> wait, i have it in the copy paste somewhere
17:24:15  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: this may be a shot in the dark, but maybe the tilelayout accepts negative numbers, so you can put (0,0) on the actual oil rig tile
17:24:27  <Eddi|zuHause> the one with [] in the original
17:24:39  <andythenorth> if you added tiles, the layout will shift
17:24:57  <samu>
17:25:02  <samu> that's my scheme
17:25:02  <roidal> my english is to bad for good bugreports :P
17:25:16  <samu> I added "xx" around the central thing
17:25:23  <samu> oh, they're not there
17:25:33  <samu> so a "xx" surrounding the oilrig
17:26:52  <samu> let me draw, brb
17:26:53  <andythenorth> that likely pushes the placement south
17:27:01  <andythenorth> by 1 tile
17:27:39  <samu>
17:28:16  <samu> there, I wrote the text for the "xx" tiles with clear, and the others with 0xnn
17:28:32  <samu> and nothing for the blank ones
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17:29:20  <andythenorth> oh, that might not push the layout around
17:29:22  <andythenorth> dunno then
17:29:33  <samu> I started at tile 0,0
17:29:34  <andythenorth> you’re just filling blanks, no expected change
17:29:42  <roidal>
17:29:46  <roidal> hope thats ok so
17:29:59  <samu> which tile does the real oil rig starts?
17:30:08  <samu> it could be that
17:30:29  <samu> 0, 0, then 0, 1.. 0, 2... 0, 3...
17:30:33  <samu> maybe the order matters
17:31:24  <andythenorth> order shouldn’t be significant, only position in the grid matters
17:31:47  <andythenorth> eh who understands railtypes?
17:31:53  * andythenorth doesn't
17:33:02  <samu> gonna try starting with coordinates 4, 4
17:33:05  <samu> brb
17:33:15  <andythenorth> can I have a track grf providing ‘RAIL’ and ‘NAAN’ (NG), with engines that can work with both type?
17:33:17  <andythenorth> types *
17:34:02  <andythenorth> the engine needs to be specifically a third track type, mixed, which is compatible with RAIL and NAAN somehow in the railtypes grf
17:34:12  <andythenorth> but I don’t want the mixed railtype to appear in game
17:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot prevent the railtype from appearing
17:39:24  <andythenorth> in the case of my grf, or general case?
17:39:30  <Eddi|zuHause> in general
17:39:38  <andythenorth> that’s ok, I should have worded better
17:39:51  <andythenorth> I don’t want to provide the railtype via Termite (railtype grf)
17:39:56  <andythenorth> nor via Iron Horse
17:40:23  <Eddi|zuHause> as soon as an engine is defined for that railtype, the railtype will appear
17:40:40  <Eddi|zuHause> unless the railtype is not defined at all
17:40:47  <Eddi|zuHause> then the engine will not appear
17:41:02  <andythenorth> that figures
17:41:21  <samu> tried coordinates 4, 4 for first tile, didn't work
17:42:03  <andythenorth> mixed is a stupid idea anyway
17:42:04  <planetmaker> <-- might come in handy, andythenorth (used in the vehicle grf)
17:42:39  <Eddi|zuHause> mixed gauge rails are somewhat realistic
17:42:47  <andythenorth> mixed gauge engines, only partly
17:42:58  <andythenorth> quite rare
17:43:27  <samu> how do I define the centered tile for industry placement? It is working correctly with the original oil rig, but not with my edited version
17:43:51  <planetmaker> you define the upper right tile, samu
17:44:04  <planetmaker> everything else is relative in the layouts
17:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: you will have to dig for that yourself. oil rigs are somewhat of a special case that probably nobody here ever really investigated
17:44:37  <andythenorth> main objection to adding mixed gauge is that the railtype list grows
17:44:49  <andythenorth> rail, elrail, ng, elng, mixed, elmixed, metro
17:44:51  <samu> define upper right tile?
17:45:12  <andythenorth> Iron Horse and Termite are about limited choices, not excessive choices
17:48:18  <Eddi|zuHause> well, a mixed gauge engine definitely does not fit a "limited choice" mentality
17:48:52  <andythenorth> means fewer engines overally in the purchase list
17:49:03  <andythenorth> so for one dimension of limited choice, it fits
17:49:16  <andythenorth> given that it’s more universal, it’s also arguably less limited :P
17:49:32  <Eddi|zuHause> but you are talking about two separate purchase lists that are almost never shown combined
17:49:39  <andythenorth> agreed
17:49:46  <andythenorth> I think the idea smells bad
17:49:49  <andythenorth> now you have me convinced
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17:58:58  <frosch123> Alberth: do you maybe have a nice idea for fs#6212 ? :)
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18:01:30  <Alberth> I looked at your patch an hour ago or so, it looks complicated
18:01:38  <frosch123> exactly :)
18:01:42  <Alberth> so many different forms of sizes
18:02:11  <frosch123> problem is that min_x and min_y should not be modified and should not depend on font size/gui zoom
18:02:23  <frosch123> they are needed when resizing the window after changing the settings
18:04:04  <Alberth> ? when I have a readme window open, and I increase fontsize, what happens?
18:04:15  <Alberth> or perhaps, should happen :)
18:04:31  <frosch123> no idea, i meant regular windows like new game
18:04:46  <frosch123> i.e. windows with fixed size, only depending on texts
18:05:10  <Alberth> ok, same question for say the intro screen window then?
18:05:27  <samu> industry "tile" FFh
18:05:32  <frosch123> well, it should resize to fit the text again
18:05:39  <frosch123> or shrink to fit the text again
18:05:59  <samu> maybe it's not clear, but FFh that I have to write?
18:06:06  <frosch123> if yuo do not scale the window you either end up with huge text overflowing the window
18:06:11  <Alberth> ok, and how can min_[xy] not change?
18:06:12  <samu> replace "clear" with "0xFF"?
18:06:16  <frosch123> or with small text inside mostly empty panels
18:06:24  <samu> is that what it means?
18:06:40  <frosch123> min_x are those initialised from the widget tree
18:06:40  <andythenorth> you only need FFh if you want to explicitly check that the tile is clear
18:07:01  <andythenorth> over-use of FFh can make industries hard to build
18:07:02  <frosch123> at some point they are copied to smallest_x including various dynamic scaling
18:07:03  <Alberth> oh, nested widgets parts
18:07:03  <andythenorth> in my experience
18:07:28  <frosch123> the scaling must be done when setting smallest_x, not when setting min_x
18:07:38  <glx> andythenorth: it's worth when the terrain must be in a precise shape
18:07:44  <frosch123> because the original min_x is unknown after the window has finished construction
18:08:10  <frosch123> so, min_x must only be set by the widget parts as constants, and not depend on font or sprite size or similar
18:08:20  <Alberth> I wonder why original min_x is not generalized, tbh
18:08:44  <Alberth> but that's perhaps another matter
18:08:53  <frosch123> generalized?
18:09:02  <samu> I found that here
18:09:04  <samu>
18:09:15  <samu> the note says FFh for those "xx" tiles
18:09:16  * andythenorth needs to know more about recursive tree structures :P
18:09:25  <andythenorth> location checks for industries are a chain
18:09:27  <samu> how do I write FFh?
18:09:35  <samu> 0xFF?
18:09:38  <andythenorth> and to code generate the switch chain, I have to know the chain :P
18:09:49  <andythenorth> this is currently handled manually
18:09:54  <glx> samu: just use "clear"
18:10:02  <Alberth> frosch123: current widget parts have sizes that aim for certain sizes of eg lists, but they do not take zoom etc into account
18:10:05  <samu> but clear misaligned it
18:10:20  <frosch123> Alberth: some do, there are widgetsparts to set number of lines
18:10:32  <Alberth> nice
18:10:43  <frosch123> some widgets initialise themself with some sprite size, e.g. scrollbars
18:10:54  <frosch123> some windows do even more magic (toolbar, server list)
18:11:10  <Alberth> would rebuilding the window from scratch work?
18:11:15  <andythenorth> example current manual chain
18:11:23  <andythenorth> L65-69
18:11:30  <Alberth> the widget-tree, probably
18:11:45  <andythenorth> I want to generate equivalent of that from a python structure
18:11:51  <frosch123> you somehow need to reset the sizes to the original :)
18:11:53  <andythenorth> I know of one way already, but it’s ugly
18:12:17  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you tried to understand CETS' yet?
18:12:21  <frosch123> there are many windows which do magic in the constructor, i do not fancy calling the constructor again :)
18:12:26  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes and no
18:12:38  <andythenorth> I’ve looked at it, remembered and understood nothing :)
18:12:43  * andythenorth goes to look again
18:12:49  <Alberth> frosch123: right, magic constructors :)
18:13:11  <frosch123> also, the window should not change as it, like selections or manual resizing
18:13:18  <frosch123> just the new minimal sizes need accomodating
18:13:26  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: specifically Tree class?
18:13:27  <frosch123> like we do when switching languages
18:13:34  <Alberth> ok, make a copy of min_[xy] somewhere?
18:13:45  <frosch123> that's what i made :p
18:13:46  <Alberth> in the same tree shape, for example?
18:14:02  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well the idea is that each node in the tree is represented by an object, and handles writing of this object into the resulting file as a switch
18:14:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and some function handles traversing the children of the node
18:14:07  <frosch123> but since the input has different units, i need to store it in different members
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18:14:17  <frosch123> remain the magic windows
18:14:20  <Eddi|zuHause> so any line containing "for blah in self.children" handles the traversing
18:14:22  <andythenorth> that is what would work for my case
18:14:22  <Alberth> makes sense
18:14:25  <samu> glx: clear is how it is right now, but it disaligned the placement tile
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18:14:35  <andythenorth> each location check is a node, and the switches are written by traversing
18:14:46  <andythenorth> I can just do it ugly in the templating, it’s trivial
18:14:48  <andythenorth> but ugly
18:15:25  <andythenorth> I can’t see the required data structure in my head using simple python primitives though (list, dict)
18:15:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and you can change whether the tree is unfold forward or backwards by placing the processing the node before or after the "for blah in self.children" line
18:16:43  <andythenorth> hmm
18:16:48  <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS, each node will write one switch, filling out the jump targets with what the children specified
18:17:16  <andythenorth> I can’t see how to do my case without adding some classes for node types
18:17:16  <Eddi|zuHause> well, one switch for the purchase chain, and one switch for the normal chain
18:17:18  <andythenorth> which seems all wrong
18:17:20  <Alberth> make a condition class, one for each condition, and have a list of such objects?
18:17:27  <Alberth> andythenorth: ^
18:17:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: node types are perfectly valid
18:17:38  <andythenorth> yeah, isn’t that a bit architecture-astronaut?
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18:17:59  <andythenorth> if nobody’s screaming “over-engineering” I’m just going to to classes
18:18:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have a special type for leaves (sprites)
18:18:24  <andythenorth> doing it on the templating would rely on tracking current loop number, and using that as an index into the next item
18:18:29  <andythenorth> ugly
18:18:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and another type for templates, which sort of work like sprites, but need different processing
18:19:18  <Eddi|zuHause> it might also be cleaner if i differentiated the internal nodes by condition type
18:19:36  <Eddi|zuHause> which currently works more like an attribute
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18:20:28  <Eddi|zuHause> attributes i must handle in if-chains in the write function
18:20:49  <Eddi|zuHause> whereas node types would have different write functions which are called polymorphic
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18:22:15  <andythenorth> ok, you have me convinced
18:22:24  <andythenorth> sky won’t fall if I add a location check type, and subclass it
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18:23:08  <Eddi|zuHause> there are many solutions to this
18:23:12  <andythenorth> yes
18:23:39  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS is probably not the structually best one
18:24:06  <samu> hey, I just tried 0xFF, it also works, but made no difference
18:24:11  <andythenorth> it’s barely a tree, really just a linear list, unless I grouped them by location check type
18:24:27  <samu> the placement tile is still misaligned
18:24:56  <Alberth> frosch123: traverse the widget parts while following the tree, and pulling out the minimal sizes only?   Will probably fail at a few points
18:25:25  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: means you're probably hung up on a misconception, and the real solution is somewhere else
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18:26:22  <andythenorth> so for your grf / default industries, you get different industry placement results for building on same tile?
18:26:58  <andythenorth> your tile offsets are different to default industry, or the default industry is doing magic (unlikely, but possible)
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18:27:23  * andythenorth ponders
18:27:46  <andythenorth> I could ‘just’ calculate the incompatible industries based on accepted / produced cargo
18:27:51  <andythenorth> TMWFTLB?
18:28:07  <andythenorth> currently maintained manually, often forgotten when adding new types
18:28:20  <Alberth> sounds as a nice check at least
18:28:49  <andythenorth> urgh
18:28:56  <andythenorth> industries that randomise cargo on build
18:29:01  <andythenorth> who’s stupid idea was that? :P
18:29:09  <andythenorth> breaks industry chain view also
18:29:20  <Alberth> /me does not mention any names :p
18:29:39  <andythenorth> industry chain view, one of my favourite feature additions ;)
18:30:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i assume i've always argued against it with exactly that reason
18:30:01  <Alberth> mine too, for alien industry sets :)
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18:30:27  <andythenorth> should I remove it? :P
18:30:29  <andythenorth> one industry only
18:30:58  <andythenorth> eh, one thing at once
18:31:09  <andythenorth> rewrite entire codebase, then change things
18:31:17  <Alberth> you could add checks for all possible cargoes
18:31:42  * andythenorth remembers about not biting off too much refactoring at once
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18:31:49  <andythenorth> due to leaving an unshippable mess
18:32:06  <andythenorth> maybe I calculate incompatible cargos automatically later
18:32:22  <andythenorth> maybe it’s just an assert :P
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18:33:03  <Alberth> assert False  # make sure we don't generate a bad newgrf  :p
18:33:35  <andythenorth> assert Silly Ideas
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18:34:58  <samu> tile offset
18:38:33  <andythenorth> in your tile layout
18:40:54  <Eddi|zuHause> "LEGO Doctor Who"... wtf?
18:41:51  <samu> where is it?
18:42:01  <andythenorth>
18:42:16  <andythenorth>
18:43:41  <Alberth> ha :)
18:43:44  <samu> i'm gonna try something crazy
18:43:52  <samu> negative coordinates
18:43:55  <samu> lel
18:46:56  <andythenorth> urgh, are all industries incompatible with self?
18:47:02  <andythenorth> but eh, still need a distance
18:47:06  <andythenorth> nvm, /me back to code
18:47:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: unless they are in clusters
18:47:37  <andythenorth> that’s actually just an expression of distance
18:47:46  <andythenorth> clusters still have a min separation on same type :)
18:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but distance within clusters may be different from distance to other incompatible industries
18:49:24  * andythenorth needs a usable API for defining behaviour per industry, the internal API can be somewhat different ;)
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18:50:48  <andythenorth> frosch123: any gut feeling on how number of switches affects nmlc compile time?
18:51:57  <frosch123> nope
18:52:16  * andythenorth should keep a log of current compile time
18:52:21  <andythenorth> I have 66 industries
18:52:53  <frosch123> you have a vcs :)
18:53:08  <andythenorth> I am consolidating 66 production change and random production change cbs to about 6 :P
18:53:12  <frosch123> recompile some older version, that way you use the same compiler
18:53:22  <andythenorth> indeed
18:53:35  <frosch123> smatz used to have logs for compile time of ottd
18:53:41  <andythenorth> 66 colour-handling cbs to 1
18:53:54  <frosch123> then he bought a new faster computer, and let it run for a week to recompile thousands of revisions :)
18:54:04  <andythenorth> probably at least a few hundred switches going to die
18:54:20  <andythenorth> doesn’t sound that significant though
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18:55:57  <andythenorth> each industry’s graphics chain probably has hundreds of switches in it just to handle things like snow and fences
18:57:29  <Alberth> count them in the resulting nml file?
18:58:10  <andythenorth> they’re hidden inside the magic spritelayout calculation stuff
18:59:21  <andythenorth>
18:59:33  <andythenorth> the resulting nml is much more complex than that though :P
19:00:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: CETS has in the order of 100000 switches
19:00:35  <andythenorth> you can have a prize :)
19:00:51  <andythenorth> stuff like this I suspect eats up switches
19:00:52  <Alberth> it's not simple   grep "switch("  firs.nml | wc -l   ?
19:00:52  <andythenorth>             hide_sprite: (climate != CLIMATE_ARCTIC) || (climate == CLIMATE_ARCTIC) && ((nearby_tile_height(0, 0) < (snowline_height + 1)) || (nearby_tile_height(0, 0) >= (snowline_height + 2)));
19:01:11  <andythenorth> nah, these advanced spritelayouts are magical
19:01:36  <andythenorth>                     hide_sprite: (construction_state != 3) || (terrain_type == TILETYPE_SNOW) || (current_year + 5 * LOAD_TEMP(0) / 0x10000) >= 1920;
19:02:13  *** Speedy` [] has joined #openttd
19:02:25  <samu> it worked
19:02:27  <samu> :)
19:02:28  *** Speedy` is now known as Speedy
19:02:31  <andythenorth>             hide_sprite: (climate != CLIMATE_TROPIC) || ((climate == CLIMATE_TROPIC) && (nearby_tile_terrain_type(0, 0) == TILETYPE_DESERT)) || ((climate == CLIMATE_TROPIC) && (nearby_tile_terrain_type(0, 0) == TILETYPE_NORMAL) && ((nearby_tile_terrain_type( 1, 0) != TILETYPE_DESERT) && (nearby_tile_terrain_type(-1, 0) != TILETYPE_DESERT) && (nearby_tile_terrain_type( 0, 1) != TILETYPE_DESERT) && (nearby_tile_terrain_typ
19:02:31  <andythenorth> 0,-1) != TILETYPE_DESERT) ) );
19:02:32  <andythenorth> :P
19:02:38  <andythenorth> enough spam already
19:03:02  <andythenorth> there are hundreds of lines of this per industry
19:03:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that may be fewer switches, but loads of advanced varaction 2
19:03:17  <Eddi|zuHause> which may be computationally more expensive
19:03:49  <andythenorth> yes
19:04:06  <andythenorth> I’m guessing that cutting out a few hundred production cb switches is a drop in the ocean
19:04:19  <andythenorth> ‘guessing' being the significant word
19:04:32  <samu>
19:04:49  <andythenorth> samu: still done within 1 day
19:04:52  <samu> there it is, it works, placement tile works correctly like that
19:05:03  <andythenorth> did you break anything?  Default oil rig is date restricted
19:05:13  <andythenorth> tile acceptance still correct?
19:05:18  <andythenorth> production look correct?
19:05:22  <samu> I have no idea
19:05:30  <samu> i was only testing placement now
19:05:38  <samu> ships are no longer blocked
19:05:50  <Alberth> andythenorth: remove one industry, and measure?  that should be about 1/66 of the total number of switches
19:05:52  <samu> and the center tile is 0,0
19:06:02  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: well, i suggested that solution two hours ago
19:06:15  <samu> ok, i am slow
19:06:22  * andythenorth tests from unprimed caches
19:06:46  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: you should work on your ability to extract the important bits of information
19:07:46  <andythenorth> look at andythenorth, always listens first time
19:07:52  <andythenorth> a shining example
19:12:26  <samu> oil rig isn't being generated
19:12:32  <samu> gah
19:12:36  <samu> date thing?
19:13:13  <Eddi|zuHause> oil rigs are never generated on map start
19:14:08  <andythenorth> adjust the probability so they are in this newgrf? o_O
19:14:32  <andythenorth> prob_random iirc
19:14:51  <andythenorth>
19:15:03  <samu> i dont wanna change that, just use all other values for that
19:15:25  <samu> ah nevermind, I didn't want long enough, two have spawned
19:15:29  <samu> wait*
19:15:38  <samu> 3
19:15:44  <samu> 4
19:15:48  <samu> fast forward is nice
19:16:10  <Eddi|zuHause> oil rigs are meant to never be available at game start, but have an increased chance of spawning during the game
19:18:41  <andythenorth> hmm /me building trees in head
19:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds unhealthy
19:23:40  <Alberth> with lego sounds much better :)
19:30:31  <andythenorth> lego trees are one piece
19:30:40  <andythenorth> shocking juniorisation
19:31:10  <samu> question, how many oil rigs are supposed to spawn with medium water, high industries, 512x512?
19:31:22  <samu> nevermind
19:32:12  <samu> how to maintain the same map spawn?
19:32:16  <samu> seed ?
19:32:35  <samu> there is no seed option anymore
19:33:36  <frosch123> console
19:33:41  <frosch123> you read the seed via console
19:33:44  <frosch123> you set it via console
19:33:49  <frosch123> getseed
19:33:58  <frosch123> newgame 12345
19:34:11  <Eddi|zuHause> or just "restart"
19:34:25  <samu> i wanna compare oil rig grf vs default
19:34:30  <samu> how many would spawn in each
19:36:39  <Supercheese> then yeah, run game with newgrf for X years, check num oil rigs (perhaps repeat and average), then check the seed, remove grf and start newgame with same seed, repeat
19:37:17  <Supercheese> it'll be subject to randomness, so beware
19:40:25  <samu> 31 with grf, 32 without
19:40:46  <samu> but yeah, there's some variances here
19:40:55  <samu> 36 banks vs 32 banks
19:40:56  <Supercheese> but probably no statistically significant difference
19:41:02  <Supercheese> if you increased sample size
19:41:16  <Alberth> andythenorth: lego trees were already a single piece 30+ years ago when I played with it :)
19:41:32  <andythenorth> it’s a standard lego troll :)
19:41:42  <andythenorth> people complain about ‘modern lego is all one big piece'
19:41:50  <Alberth> :D
19:42:11  <frosch123> sell lego saws
19:42:11  <Alberth> don't use glue?
19:42:45  <andythenorth> my (python not lego) tree is suffering from some andythenorth issues
19:43:08  <andythenorth> I want a trivial way to get the next node while in a loop
19:43:14  <andythenorth> I can’t see one :P
19:43:26  <samu> empty world fast forwarding to 2051
19:43:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "yield"
19:44:04  <andythenorth> you mean I have to read the itertools docs? :P
19:44:08  <andythenorth> I have been avoiding this
19:44:30  <andythenorth>     ${location_checks[repeat.location_check.index+1]}
19:44:44  <andythenorth> tends to exceed the length of the list on last iteration :P
19:44:58  <Eddi|zuHause> have a sentinel in the list
19:45:17  <andythenorth> sentinel says ‘go no further'?
19:45:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:45:34  <andythenorth> how to implement
19:45:43  <andythenorth> oh, I could just use ternary op
19:45:48  <andythenorth> not for sentinel, but in the template
19:45:49  <andythenorth> :P
19:45:57  <Eddi|zuHause> in the easiest case, sentinel is just "None"
19:46:36  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise, you could also use get()
19:46:45  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of [] operator
19:47:02  <andythenorth> no get on lists
19:47:08  <andythenorth> unless it was added since I checked 2 mins ago
19:47:36  <Eddi|zuHause> try/except would work also
19:48:00  <andythenorth> not in single line template code
19:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, you clearly could use an iterator here
19:48:12  <andythenorth>     ${location_checks[repeat.location_check.index+1].industry_type if index < len(location_checks) else 'CB_RESULT_LOCATION_ALLOW'}
19:48:18  <andythenorth> seems to work
19:49:16  <andythenorth> or fail silently :(
19:50:15  * andythenorth fixes
19:51:24  <samu> year 2051 on both, heh, I'm surprised
19:51:39  <andythenorth> hrm
19:51:41  <andythenorth> this is ugly
19:51:54  <samu> 55 oil rigs with fix, 47 default oil rig
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19:52:16  <samu> okay, so it is working, what now? will you put it in the game?
19:52:37  <andythenorth> is it really wrong for a node to store a reference to the next node directly?
19:52:49  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: you are the author, what happens next is all on you
19:52:50  <andythenorth> instead of buggering around looking up using list indices?
19:53:07  <Alberth> it defeats the idea of having a list :p
19:53:15  <Alberth> otherwise, it's fine :)
19:53:28  <Alberth> bit C-ish, though
19:53:34  <samu> what do you mean? where do I upload this thing?
19:53:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: .next()
19:53:44  <Supercheese> you can put it on Bananas if you want
19:54:33  <samu> bananas ? isn't it going to be part of the main game?
19:54:34  *** zeknurn [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:54:37  <samu> t.t
19:54:53  <Supercheese> a newgrf cannot be directly made a part of trunk
19:55:01  <Supercheese> a source patch would be required
19:55:03  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: generally, the default industries will not be changed
19:56:30  <andythenorth> potentially breaks AIs, scenarios, gamescripts, newgrfs
19:57:01  <Alberth> making a patch for opengfx+industries is also an option, perhaps the authors of opengfx+industries want to add it
19:57:04  * andythenorth gives in and reads itertools docs
19:57:07  <andythenorth> :(
19:57:20  <Alberth> is that any good?
19:57:21  <andythenorth> if you can’t do it with ‘’ it’s not worth doing :(
19:58:00  <andythenorth> eh there’s loads of that, forget it
19:58:03  <samu> hmm, so ships will always be blocked
19:58:12  <samu> because ... gah... :(
19:58:18  <Alberth> andythenorth:  ${ ..... }   doesn't mean anything to me
19:58:26  <andythenorth> nah it wouldn’t
19:58:43  <Alberth> samu: that's why many people don't play with default industries
19:59:01  <samu> is this the source?
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19:59:31  <samu> no that's not the right one, oops
19:59:37  <samu>
20:00:01  <Alberth> if nml accepts it, yes, it counts as source :)
20:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: the source must include all used files (e.g. english.lng), and scripts used for compilation
20:00:34  <Supercheese> a patch for opengfx+ industries seems like a decent idea
20:01:29  <samu> ok, bananas is where I put source stuff?
20:01:38  <samu> where is that bananas
20:01:43  <Eddi|zuHause> no, on bananas you put the .grf
20:01:45  <V453000> holy fuck XD my quest: Create one train model, render it in 8 rotations while all 8 are in some way scaled, and render those in 10 various cuts for each articulated part XD everything in one click
20:01:53  <V453000> setting up = mind explodes
20:02:13  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i do the cutting in nml
20:02:26  <samu>
20:03:07  <V453000> that is certainly an option Eddi, but I 1. dont want to do that because tedious and ugh numbers :P and 2. will have some easter eggs inside of the trains, only seen when turning
20:03:14  <V453000> idk if it will be visible when turning
20:03:15  <V453000> but yeah :D
20:03:28  <V453000> though at the same time it is probably stupid wasting of grfsize
20:03:38  <V453000> well, I can always assign a matter material to the inside cut
20:03:45  <V453000> matte*
20:05:02  <Alberth> samu: you can also make a post in the newgrf releases forum
20:05:12  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if they split anyway when turning, just model the two halves separately
20:05:14  <V453000> nice :> made it work + learned something new :)
20:05:36  <V453000> Eddi that is less manageable, better to have one model which is split automatically
20:06:04  <V453000> easier edits, ...
20:06:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i imagine your render apparatus has the concept of "layers" which you can just enable or disable
20:06:16  <V453000> yes
20:06:37  <V453000> I set up an automatic way which switches between layers automatically now :)
20:06:45  <V453000> manual would be hell
20:06:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:06:59  <andythenorth> remarkably stupid, but it works
20:06:59  <V453000> and even better, it can also switch between trains :)
20:07:03  *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@] has joined #openttd
20:07:14  *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@] has quit []
20:09:36  <samu> nope, i'm banned from the forum
20:09:43  <samu> or restricted
20:09:48  <samu> something like that
20:10:37  <samu> orudge is taking care of my account
20:10:39  <V453000> the only problem I am having so far is how to easily select just some trains to render XD
20:10:46  <V453000> currently selecting/deselecting one is 10 clicks
20:10:52  <V453000> which is a lot considering a mass of trains
20:11:39  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
20:11:57  <Wolf01> hi hi
20:12:34  <Alberth> o/
20:12:35  <samu> i'm fïguring out a decent title for this grf
20:13:22  <andythenorth> ho ho
20:13:27  <samu> "Oil Rig Layout That Won't Block Ships"?
20:13:35  <andythenorth> I always forget you can’t do ‘return list.reverse()’ :P
20:13:36  <Alberth> too techy
20:13:49  <andythenorth> More Navigable Oil Rigs
20:14:03  <Alberth> Spacy Oil Rigs
20:14:53  <Alberth> andythenorth:  list(reversed([1,2,3]))   :)
20:14:55  <samu> Fixed Oil Rig Layout for Ships?
20:15:01  <samu> hmm
20:15:10  <samu> Oil Rig for Ships
20:15:12  <Alberth> Oil Rig  implies ships already :)
20:15:19  <andythenorth> oh yeah I have to call list on it again
20:15:19  <samu> eh, ok
20:15:30  <andythenorth> do I actually care that it’s a list?
20:15:39  <andythenorth> iterable would do, but the order needs to be reliable
20:16:10  <Alberth> outer "list" is only to force the iterator to get unfolded to a list
20:16:36  * andythenorth adds the list
20:16:38  <Alberth> order is decided by whatever you put as argument in reversed
20:16:46  <andythenorth> yes
20:17:13  <andythenorth> it always puzzles me that I can’t call list.reverse() on the same operation as anything else
20:17:20  <andythenorth> on / in /s
20:17:25  <andythenorth> but eh
20:17:26  <andythenorth> nvm
20:17:34  <Alberth> just like you cannot return  list.sort()
20:17:49  <andythenorth> that trips me up often also :)
20:17:53  <andythenorth> nvm
20:18:51  <Alberth> your code looks like there should be a nicer alternative, but I cannot come up with one
20:19:07  <samu> "Improved Oil Rig Layout"
20:19:09  <samu> that's it
20:19:27  <andythenorth> Alberth: there will be fancier ones :P
20:19:39  <andythenorth> stupid can be simple
20:21:21  <Alberth> yeah, alternatives don't look like they are going to be easier to understand
20:22:09  <Alberth> reversed order would fail I guess?
20:22:17  <Alberth> that would be much easier
20:22:51  <andythenorth> reversed order?
20:23:01  <andythenorth> of the result?
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20:25:38  <samu> help me at english
20:25:43  <samu> docking in? docking on?
20:25:59  <andythenorth> docking at
20:26:06  <samu> STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION :v{VERSION} - This Oil Rig Layout won't block ships docking on when an Oil Rig is spawned in front of another Oil Rig.
20:26:08  <samu> at
20:26:11  <samu> ok thx
20:26:21  <andythenorth> or just ‘docking’ in that sentence
20:26:29  <andythenorth> - on
20:26:29  <samu> ty
20:26:41  <Alberth> andythenorth:       this should just work, as I don't change result itself, I think
20:27:59  * andythenorth tests
20:28:24  <andythenorth> does need reversed
20:28:43  <andythenorth> when rendered, last switch is first and so on
20:29:23  <andythenorth> logical order of chain is inverted w.r.t to how templating loops
20:29:40  <samu> how do I upload the 4 files to bananas?
20:29:47  <samu> it only lets me pick one
20:30:00  <andythenorth> tar
20:30:31  * andythenorth just calls reversed on result
20:30:37  <samu> tar?
20:30:43  <samu> i need 7-zip for that?
20:30:45  <samu> grr
20:30:50  <Alberth> no, tar
20:31:17  <samu> isn't tar an archive?
20:31:56  <samu> do you accept zip?
20:31:57  <Alberth> yes, and zip is another one, and rar is another one, and 7z is another one
20:32:08  <Alberth> no, just tar
20:32:21  <Alberth> afaik
20:33:56  <samu> license? I have no idea
20:34:10  <samu> what license do i pick
20:35:19  <andythenorth> ho, now I have a node without industry_type prop
20:35:22  <andythenorth> interesting
20:35:29  <frosch123> <- V453000: will your wagons look like that? :p
20:35:45  <V453000> they could. :)
20:38:01  <samu> minimum openttd version? I have no idea
20:38:08  <samu> i tested in 1.5.0-beta1
20:38:13  <samu> what do i put there
20:38:35  *** Quatroking [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:40:08  <samu> License: this field is required
20:40:15  <samu> what goes there?
20:42:25  <Alberth> does it accept 1.5 ?
20:42:38  <samu> no, highest version is 1.4.4
20:42:40  <Alberth> (version)
20:44:00  <samu>
20:44:05  <samu> im using this
20:44:53  <samu> do i put the .grf file inside the tar?
20:44:57  <samu> or just the others?
20:46:20  <andythenorth> ho ho
20:46:25  <andythenorth> seems to work
20:46:30  <andythenorth> I hate the string concatenation
20:46:33  <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably put 1.2.0 in the version
20:46:33  <andythenorth> that can die later
20:46:47  <andythenorth> assembling CPP with python :P
20:46:49  <andythenorth> bonkers
20:48:40  <andythenorth> ah fricking hg branches
20:48:45  <andythenorth> how did I end up on default?
20:49:22  <andythenorth> now I have to revert commits and cherry pick
20:49:51  <samu> what license?
20:50:00  <andythenorth> can I even cherrry pick?
20:50:23  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: license is a very complicated issue
20:50:46  * andythenorth sad face
20:50:57  <samu> there should be a none
20:51:01  <samu> i'd pick that
20:51:07  <Eddi|zuHause> there cannot be a none
20:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: with "none" you would forbid bananas to send the file to the players.
20:52:03  <frosch123> samu: use "cc-by", if that is an option
20:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: you have to thoroughly study the license you pick
20:52:13  <frosch123> that is likely the most "none" you can get
20:52:47  <frosch123> i.e. it allows about everything for everyone
20:53:46  <Alberth> andythenorth: incompatible is a dict?  that's not stable
20:54:04  <samu> "I don't care" license
20:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: that would be the WTFPL
20:54:36  <andythenorth> Alberth: I know, doesn’t matter, because I build the tree later
20:54:41  <frosch123> samu: "cc-0" then
20:54:54  <Alberth> WTFPL  :p
20:55:09  <andythenorth> only the order of the nodes types in the tree matters, if that makes sense, order of individual nodes within their type is insignificant
20:55:16  <Alberth> ok
20:55:25  <samu> •Unknown file in pack: custom_tags.txt
20:55:28  <samu> :(
20:55:32  <samu> how come
20:55:43  <frosch123> do you have a readme or changelog?
20:55:48  <andythenorth> I now have a reusable template for tertiary industries :D
20:55:49  <samu> nop
20:55:51  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: that's a source file, that should not be in there
20:55:55  <andythenorth> instead of a template for every tertiary industry
20:55:56  <frosch123> if you only have a grf, you can directly upload that one, don't bother abuot tar
20:56:08  <samu> ok, I see
20:56:14  <Alberth> andythenorth:  progress :)
20:56:22  <andythenorth> been bothering me
20:56:36  <andythenorth> 6 industry templates shows flexibility
20:56:44  <andythenorth> 66 templates is bonkers
20:56:59  <Alberth> make a meta-template :p
20:57:01  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has joined #openttd
20:57:14  <andythenorth> been there, done that :P
20:57:22  <Alberth> :D
20:57:22  <andythenorth> I could code generate the meta-template
20:57:29  <Eddi|zuHause> there's not much point in a template if it's only used once...
20:57:37  <andythenorth> I could code-generate the code-generator
20:57:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +lots
20:57:50  <samu> its uploaded, what is that dependency thing?
20:58:16  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: dependency is probably nothing you have to worry about
20:58:28  <frosch123> it's for scenarios and scripts
20:58:38  <frosch123> newgrfs never have dependencies
20:58:40  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: it's "when you download this, it should automatically download that and that"
20:59:00  <samu> ah, how do I delete it?
20:59:25  <frosch123> there is some edit button somewhere
21:01:23  <samu> what are those tunnel whatever dependency? how did they get there? omg i screwed
21:01:58  <frosch123> on your manager page you can press edit
21:02:14  <frosch123> and edit the description, version requirements and dependencies
21:02:48  <samu> how do i remove all those dependencies? I don't see how
21:02:54  <samu> it's a huge list
21:02:57  <frosch123> don't select any
21:03:29  <frosch123> it always lists everything, it matters what you select :p
21:03:33  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:03:52  <samu> •!! BK Enhanced Tunnels
21:04:01  <samu> screw that, I don't know how to remove that
21:04:06  <samu> I keep pressing edit
21:05:04  <frosch123> well, are you sure you even added it?
21:05:16  <frosch123> as said, it lists "options", that does not mean "selected options"
21:06:19  <samu> i can only select
21:06:24  <samu> can't unselect
21:06:32  <frosch123> well, then don't select :p
21:06:38  <frosch123> it resets when editing
21:06:46  <samu> it is already selected when I press Edit
21:06:52  <samu> so i want to unselect
21:10:36  <frosch123> ctrl+click?
21:10:55  <samu> COOL, that was it
21:17:26  <samu> Unhandled Exception
21:17:33  <samu> An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
21:18:23  <samu> nevermind, version had to be 2
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21:20:00  <samu> how do i delete version 1?
21:20:08  <samu> version 2 has better descriptions and name
21:20:14  <frosch123> you don't care
21:20:18  <samu> ok
21:20:20  <frosch123> version 2 hides version 1
21:21:07  <samu> delete it for me if you can
21:21:29  <frosch123> it's the intention of bananas to never delete things
21:21:51  <frosch123> it's essentially the reason it exists
21:22:24  <samu> it didn't hide version 1
21:22:39  <samu> now i see two different grfs
21:22:42  <samu> :(
21:23:10  <samu> Improved Oil Rig Layout and Oil Rig 1
21:23:29  <samu> they do the same, it's just how I titled it
21:23:39  <samu> how do i remove the oil rig 1?
21:24:06  <frosch123> just logout, then you don't see it anymore
21:25:10  <frosch123> <- as you can see, there is only version 2
21:27:09  <samu> gah, v2 says v1
21:27:15  <samu> this is confusing
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21:32:15  <samu> min_compatible_version must be equal to itself?
21:32:24  <samu> ifi want to hide the previous versoons?
21:32:43  <frosch123> no
21:32:55  <frosch123> previous version are always hidden
21:33:45  <samu> why can I see it then?
21:36:46  <samu>
21:36:55  <samu> I see two versions listed
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21:42:42  <samu> 0
21:44:11  *** samu [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
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21:45:09  <samu> sorry, I closed this window
21:45:20  <samu> was there an answer?
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22:07:43  <samu> ah, is this it?
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22:18:52  <samu> got it
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22:19:28  <samu> version 3 uploaded, I hope all versions match
22:19:34  <samu> everywhere
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22:31:36  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:02:55  <NGC3982> dude bro
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23:03:03  <NGC3982> dis is the best metroid game ever
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23:53:49  <dreck> hi
23:59:26  <dreck> just for the sake of trying to use an uniform scale would you probably say that for example a 2-axle wagon was a length of 1 .. typical trucks wagon would be 2 .. and 3-axle coaches might sit at 1.5 (as to fudge things so two of these would be an even length)

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