Log for #openttd on 9th February 2015:
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00:01:29  <Diablo-D3> normally I would ask why, but Im not going to
00:01:54  <planetmaker> simple: better performance
00:02:39  <Diablo-D3> depends how you define better
00:03:05  <Diablo-D3> modern hardware cannot optimize draw calls that way anymore
00:06:25  <Diablo-D3> its faster to paint the entire frame every frame
00:06:27  <Diablo-D3> than just do updates
00:15:09  <Flygon> Modern hardware needs HScroll function
00:15:29  <Flygon> Hallucination effect in RO broken due to modern hardware lacking HScroll equivilant
00:15:34  <Flygon> And having to do it in software D:
00:16:06  <Flygon> IS it really so hard to retain the ability to offset a scanline by x amount of pixels as a herediary function?
00:16:26  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: well, modern hardware isnt meant to be used for direct framebuffer manipulation
00:16:41  <Diablo-D3> either do it all in software, or use hardware accelerated methods via d3d or ogl
00:16:43  <Flygon> Why not do the effect post-framebuffer then?
00:17:05  <Diablo-D3> because post-framebuffer is the monitor.
00:17:12  <Flygon> Delay or introduce early the amount of pixels by how much the HScroll effect says, add black border for... seriously?
00:17:24  <Flygon> It's just a literal framebuffer > video port > monitor thing?
00:17:32  <Diablo-D3> yup, thats how hardware still works
00:17:36  <Flygon> Zero additional steps apart from making...
00:17:38  <Flygon> ...
00:17:48  <Flygon> The world I lived in hasn't existed for 15 years
00:17:50  <Diablo-D3> framebuffers for a window may be secondary framebuffers
00:18:02  <Diablo-D3> but it depends entirely on the OS and the driver
00:18:07  <Flygon> x3 Sorry for sounding like a fool
00:18:12  <Flygon> Just... long story short
00:18:19  <Flygon> Too used to working with older hardware
00:18:35  <Diablo-D3> yeah, basically, radeon 5xxx and up and geforce 8xxx and up are modern hardware
00:18:39  <Flygon> And noted that certain older games ran horridly on modern hardware due to using hardware effects tricks that don't work anymore
00:18:56  <Diablo-D3> and trying to do openttd's rendering pipeline on them doesnt work
00:19:03  <Flygon> Due to the fact that they clearly use functions that would've been great in the 90s, but now require (incredibly slow) software rendering
00:19:14  <Diablo-D3> worst case, it will flush a shadow framebuffer to the screen on every blit
00:19:17  <Flygon> eg. making the screen all wavey by offsetting individual scanlines by x amount
00:19:26  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: no
00:19:29  <Diablo-D3> you can still do that in hardware
00:19:32  <Flygon> You can?
00:19:33  <Diablo-D3> write a pixel shader for it.
00:19:36  <Flygon> Oh
00:19:46  <Diablo-D3> thats what you got in exchange
00:19:48  <Flygon> Was that possible in 1999?
00:19:51  <Diablo-D3> _specific_ methods are gone
00:19:58  <Diablo-D3> but its all generic hardware now
00:20:30  <Flygon> =/ I still feel that it shouldn't be so slow for a game written in 1999-2001 to execute an effect on a 2015 PC that it could on a 1999 PC
00:20:38  <Diablo-D3> ANYTHING you did in the old days can be done now
00:20:49  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: its because they're all badly software emulated effects
00:20:50  <Flygon> It CAN be done now. But the software has to be rewritten for it.
00:20:55  <Diablo-D3> you can _correctly_ software emulate them
00:21:03  <Diablo-D3> the thing is, those old effects? were a dumb thing to do
00:21:06  <Diablo-D3> they abused the hardware to do it
00:21:31  <Diablo-D3> you CAN do it now, in hardware, just by rendering to a texture, uploading the texture, and then using a shader on it.
00:21:34  <Flygon> It seemed like a good idea at the time :P
00:21:47  <Flygon> Again, I'm probably seeing this from a weird perspective
00:21:59  <Flygon> My friends and I tend to work on Mega Drive related stuff
00:22:03  <Diablo-D3> yeah, see
00:22:06  <Diablo-D3> consoles are different
00:22:10  <Diablo-D3> you were MEANT to abuse the hardware
00:22:15  <Flygon> Which had all sorts of neat hardware functions related to the background
00:22:27  <Flygon> HScroll related ones being... well, bread and butter
00:22:28  <Diablo-D3> because you knew exactly what the chip was, and all genesises were the same hardware
00:22:35  <Diablo-D3> but PCs are different
00:22:44  <Diablo-D3> always at least 3 different manufs doing hardware differently
00:22:48  <Flygon> Hence my confusion it could break so absurdly on a modern PC, despite older ones accepting it and rendering it 30fps+ no problem
00:22:50  <Diablo-D3> for every part in the PC
00:22:57  <Flygon> Because it's just such a damn simple effect
00:23:03  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: because, like I said, the hardware no longer works that way
00:23:07  <Diablo-D3> and no one cares to fix it
00:23:11  <Flygon> I know
00:23:15  <Diablo-D3> older games literally should be handled in virtual hardware
00:23:17  <Flygon> Part of the bafflement is, of course
00:23:19  <Diablo-D3> and done entirely in software
00:23:29  <Diablo-D3> and then the screen completely blitted every frame
00:23:31  <Flygon> Is that emulating the effect in an emulator for older hardware is trivial
00:23:39  <Diablo-D3> its 100% trivial
00:23:44  <Diablo-D3> look at dos box
00:23:45  <Flygon> But an application actually written for PC completely borks out
00:23:55  <Diablo-D3> it emulates every trick VGA can do
00:24:06  <Diablo-D3> even some of the most screwed up games run fine in dosbox
00:24:19  <Flygon> Yeah, I'm quite a fan of DOSBox myself
00:24:28  <Diablo-D3> the thing is
00:24:33  <Diablo-D3> newer hardware, newer drivers, newer OSen
00:24:36  <Flygon> ...that reminds me, I should probably see how well YouTube handles 72fps
00:24:42  <Diablo-D3> just dont give a fuck about backwards compat
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00:25:16  <Diablo-D3> the only way to get old code running on new hardware is to port it like it was an entirely new platform... because it IS an entirely new platform
00:25:23  <Flygon> The sad thing is, the first time I really saw modern hardware was cutting some features I'dve considered quit trivial... was actually a Mega Drive emulator for the DS
00:25:42  <Diablo-D3> well thats the thing Flygon
00:25:44  <Diablo-D3> ANY trick
00:25:49  <Diablo-D3> can be done on modern hardware
00:25:56  <Diablo-D3> you just need to do it the way the modern hardware requires you to
00:26:05  <Diablo-D3> either do it entirely in software, or do it in a pixel shader
00:26:19  <Flygon> Long story short: Emulator basically did hardware emulation of the sprites and backgrounds. A fair few games used vertical column scrolling effects for... well, effects. But that wasn't actually possible on the DS... and probably not possible on the GBA either, because, the DS's 2D hardware is basically the GBA's up to 11. @_@
00:26:57  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: the thing is, GPUs are now entirely software driven
00:27:01  <Diablo-D3> theres virtually no fixed function left
00:27:07  <Diablo-D3> and thats just the way it is
00:27:12  <Flygon> iirc, when the guy got hired by Sega to code the emulator specifically for some sort of Sonic collection for the DS/DSi, he managed to fix that issue due to affecting S3K heavily.
00:27:17  <Diablo-D3> to get maximum performance out of the hardware, thats what they had to do
00:27:22  <Flygon> Hmm =/
00:27:31  <Flygon> I understand why things've changed
00:27:35  <Flygon> But... well, it bugs me
00:27:36  <Diablo-D3> so yes, every little thing you used to do? could be emulated by the driver perfectly
00:27:38  <Diablo-D3> it just doesnt.
00:27:41  <Diablo-D3> because no one cares.
00:27:56  <Diablo-D3> and if openttd wants 100% performance (since we're in #openttd and all)
00:28:06  <Diablo-D3> it needs to seriously rewrite the rendering pipeline
00:28:23  <Diablo-D3> there should be pretty much two things done every frane
00:28:26  <Diablo-D3> *frame
00:29:00  <Diablo-D3> blit surface used for sw rendering to screen, flip screen.
00:29:04  <Flygon> O_o I never noticed OTTD's rendering was slow
00:29:10  <Diablo-D3> its not
00:29:19  <Diablo-D3> but people like planetmaker think it is
00:29:27  <Flygon> I always just assumed it was due to me building a cocktillion amount of ships and using a CPU heavy pathfinder
00:29:27  <Diablo-D3> so they keep trying to optimize in ways that dont make sense
00:29:44  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: the thing is, even if it WAS slow, the entire thing could be written as an opengl bilboarding renderer
00:30:12  <Flygon> Oh, man. When I first spoke to a guy about modern video rendering on PC's... the concept of billboards confused me
00:30:18  <Flygon> Then I realized they make a fair bit of sense
00:30:24  <Diablo-D3> bilboards in 2D space are sprites.
00:30:45  <Diablo-D3> opengl nor d3d is a 3D api... its just an api that allows 3D.
00:31:16  <Flygon> The real stupid thing is... is that I know a fair few Mega Drive games have managed to reimplement billboard-equivilants using hardware rendering because hurting brains is half the job :B
00:31:37  <raincomplex> if anything, convert to sdl2
00:31:51  <Diablo-D3> raincomplex: sdl2 doesnt magically do things.
00:32:06  <raincomplex> what do you mean
00:32:15  <Flygon> Such brainhurting things include the Road Rash series implementing scalable sprites as part of the background layer and making them work by abusing the hell out of h-int and v-int effects...
00:32:25  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: oh christ that
00:32:28  <Diablo-D3> yeah thats ugly as hell
00:32:33  <Flygon> Yeah, but it worked :D
00:32:53  <Flygon> I do kinda wonder why they didn't just make prescaled sprites
00:33:00  <Flygon> It can'tve taken up THAT much VRAM...
00:33:11  <Flygon> Then again, you also have buildings and the environment to render...
00:34:16  <Flygon> The fact they managed to get over 15-20fps (assuming NTSC console, PAL rendered faster) most of the time is a bloody miracle
00:34:19  <Diablo-D3> vram really isnt a concept anymore
00:34:26  <Flygon> Given the entire game was basically softrendered
00:34:33  <Diablo-D3> I cant imagine how much trouble they had on genesis and snes
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00:34:50  <Flygon> THe SNES was even more of a headache
00:35:15  <Flygon> Transfer times to the video chip (and the SPC/soundchip too, incidentally) were painfully slow
00:35:37  <raincomplex> what are you talking about vram isn't a concept
00:35:54  <Flygon> Made porting things over from the Mega Drive a huge pain in the ass, apperantly
00:35:55  <Diablo-D3> raincomplex: anymore. on modern hardware. as in, PCs.
00:36:01  <raincomplex> games are constantly pushing the vram limits
00:36:11  <Diablo-D3> raincomplex: textures are cached in memory
00:36:24  <Diablo-D3> the actual texture pool can be far larger than the vram on the card
00:36:34  <raincomplex> yeah but you need to push them through to the card if they fall out, which is way slower
00:36:39  <Diablo-D3> "slower"
00:36:56  <Flygon> (though, games that made clones of Road Rash's engine such as Outlander had a far higher framerate. So Road Rash's quite lackluster frameright might be partially down to EA Games being... well, EA Games)
00:36:59  *** itsatacoshop247 [~itsatacos@2601:9:1180:237:2096:d0be:8715:f653] has joined #openttd
00:37:11  <Diablo-D3> raincomplex: a pci-e 3.0 x16 slot is 128gbit/sec
00:37:28  <glx> but sprite drawing and scrolling usually was done by hardware, not software
00:38:08  <raincomplex> which at 60 fps can only handle 266mb/sec
00:38:28  <raincomplex> i'm sorry, 266mb/frame
00:38:28  <Diablo-D3> raincomplex: the r9 290x's memory bandwidth is 320.
00:39:24  <Flygon> glx: Yeah. But you can't really scale sprites without prerendering the scaled sprites. If you lack enough VRAM, easier off just making sprites part of the background and abusing the hell out of the vint/hint functions
00:39:42  <Flygon> Not that Road Rash was completely devoid of sprites
00:39:44  <glx> neogeo had this function in hardware ;)
00:39:51  <Diablo-D3> neogeo was magic
00:39:59  <Flygon> Just that anything that had to scale had to be done in software
00:40:01  <Diablo-D3> the only game where 256MB roms were normal
00:40:12  <Diablo-D3> er only platform
00:40:25  <Flygon> I forgot, was Neo Geo scaling just one direction?
00:40:28  <Flygon> Or both directions?
00:40:35  <Flygon> Diablo: You forgot the 3/DS
00:40:35  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: doesnt matter
00:40:48  <Flygon> (as in, could you only zoom out, or zoom in from 100% too?)
00:40:52  <glx> from big to small IIRC
00:40:59  <Flygon> I'm not as savvy on the Neo GEo
00:41:00  <Flygon> Ah, right
00:41:02  <Diablo-D3> faster bilinear is done in two stages
00:41:13  <Diablo-D3> shrink/enlarge one way, shrink/enlarge the other way
00:41:22  <Flygon> So if you wanted to have an object scale up on the Neo Geo, you had to first make it the maximum size then scale down?
00:41:50  <Flygon> One thing I love about the Neo Geo btw
00:41:54  <glx> yes but the result was impressive :)
00:42:04  <Flygon> Is that the VRAM (may's well be VROM) is accessed entirely from the cartridge
00:42:15  *** itsatacoshop247__ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:42:17  <Flygon> (also something I like about the NES/Famicom btw, that function being available)
00:42:35  <glx> neogeo is based from an arcade board
00:42:53  <Flygon> No more loading sprites into the VRAM, just eat it up from the ROM quick as hell :D
00:43:31  <glx> NES had 2 roms on cartridge, program and sprites
00:44:01  <Flygon> Couldn't it be just one unified ROM, as well as being seperate?
00:44:04  <supermop> who wants to code a quick and dirty set of a few trams
00:44:05  *** itsatacoshop247_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:44:19  <Flygon> And couldn't the NES/Famicom have RAM on the cart be directly read and written to by the PPU?
00:44:19  <Pikka> pick me, pick me
00:45:19  <Eddi|zuHause> <Diablo-D3> Flygon: the thing is, even if it WAS slow, the entire thing could be written as an opengl bilboarding renderer <-- so where is your patch, and your profiling results that show it's at least not-slower than what there is currently?
00:45:23  <glx> probably not as the hardware managed the sprites
00:45:29  <supermop> ill have some standardized (but no guarantee of good) renders in less than an hour
00:45:42  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: I said WAS slow
00:45:52  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: openttd doesnnt do enough rendering to be slow enough on modern hardware
00:45:56  <Flygon> glx: Hmm... alright
00:46:03  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: so even if it IS using the slow path, its not slow enough
00:46:03  <Flygon> Sorry, the NES/Famicom isn't my forete
00:46:17  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: it'd have to do millions of sprites to be an issue
00:46:18  <Flygon> Kinda started from the Mega Drive and worked from there
00:46:19  <supermop> images can be later subbed for renders of Melb trams, or generic , but are just silly/novelty for now
00:46:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: doesn't mean it couldn't be faster. but a lot of people just talk rubbish
00:46:21  <glx> I'm not a specialist either :)
00:46:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: just zoom out, you have plenty of sprites :p
00:46:58  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: the correct fix would be to do purely software rendering, and do two calls per frame, blit surface, and flip
00:47:05  <Flygon> Either way... I do wish more of the consoles supported directly rendering the sprites from the ROM
00:47:18  <Flygon> The Mega Drive could've used it. The SNES practically NEEDED it.
00:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: that's basically what it already does
00:47:23  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: but last time I suggested that, I got banned from here
00:47:26  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: so w/e
00:47:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: don't do suggestions. do patches.
00:47:40  <Flygon> I cannot emphasise enough how crippling the SNES's slow transfer times from ROM to RAM is
00:48:00  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: last time I was interested in doing a patch, I was banned the previous time before that
00:48:16  <glx> but SNES had mode 7 and it was nice to see on screen :)
00:48:26  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: so screw it, Im not coding for openttd
00:48:30  <Diablo-D3> even if the fix is trivial
00:48:31  <Flygon> Almost all devs being forced to use the standard SPC sound driver was also stupid
00:48:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: then why bother us?
00:48:48  <Flygon> It made streaming audio from the ROM utterly impossible
00:48:52  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: I want the mouse locking issue fixed
00:49:07  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: currently openttd is unusable on windows on multiple monitors because it doesnt lock the cursor
00:49:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and you were told how to go about doing that
00:49:11  <Flygon> It's an incredibly stupid situation when the Mega Drive has an easier time streaming multi-channel PCM audio from the ROM, than the SNES
00:49:18  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: yes, file a bug ticket that will never be fixed
00:49:19  <Flygon> Desite how utterly crippled the DAC is on the SMD
00:49:38  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: Ive already accepted the fact it wont be fixed, so Im now looking for a program that fixes it in broken games
00:49:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well, certainly ranting about unrelated stuff in the middle of the night will fix it.
00:50:01  <Diablo-D3> its 8pm.
00:50:02  <glx> using a dedicated CPU helped for that I think
00:50:06  <Diablo-D3> it is hardly the middle of the night.
00:50:12  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: to be fair, the SPC _is_ its own DSP
00:50:19  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: and someone even wrote a sid emulator for the spc.
00:50:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it's 2am
00:50:29  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't get much more middle-of-night.
00:50:36  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: the only time zone I recognize is the one Im in.
00:50:41  <Flygon> Diablo: Modern hardware isn't forced to use standard SPC driver anymore :)
00:50:53  <Flygon> Modern SPC drivers are quite incredble, given what they have to deal with
00:50:57  <Eddi|zuHause> good luck finding a developer in that timezone.
00:51:07  <Flygon> Basically... the situation in the 90s was
00:51:18  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: great news! Im a developer!
00:51:29  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you're not.
00:51:30  <glx> I guess on MD you can do whatever you want with the z80
00:51:33  <Flygon> The Mega Drive was allowed to stream audio into a buffer then play it, software mixing if you had a reeaaallly good sound driver guy
00:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you just said you won't code in openttd.
00:51:57  <Flygon> But Nintendo's default SPC driver only let sound play on the SPC after everything was written and set in stone...
00:52:05  <Eddi|zuHause> that's kind of a prerequesite of being a developer
00:52:10  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: no, I wont submit patches because Ive gotten banned for discussing me patching behavior in the past
00:52:13  <Flygon> So it wasn't like you could set up the audio buffer arragement the Mega Drive had
00:52:25  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: theres a difference
00:52:26  <Flygon> This utterly cripped the SPC's ability to use RAM efficiently
00:52:31  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: the SPC700 had its own ram and was its own mixer
00:52:39  <Flygon> And buggered games that relied on streaming audio to save audio RAM
00:52:40  <glx> it was possible to use custom SPC driver I think
00:52:51  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: and nothing stopped you from swapping out samples during program execution
00:52:55  <glx> but noone really wanted to write its own
00:53:01  <Flygon> glx: Last I heard, Nintendo never allowed it except for several Japanese devs
00:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: for the record, i totally understand why that happened.
00:53:19  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: zombies ate my neighbors was rather masterful on how it manipulated the spc700
00:53:26  <Flygon> Diablo: Technically there was nothing wrong with doing that with the default SPC driver. It's a shame the transfer times with said driver was inredibly slow.
00:53:49  <Diablo-D3> its not that it was slow in as much as the timing was very controlled
00:53:55  <Flygon> I know a few Japanese games were allowed custom drivers with much faster sample transfers, however
00:53:56  <Diablo-D3> you had a very small window in which to transfer data
00:53:59  <Flygon> As well as a few other features
00:54:15  <Diablo-D3> also whats with nintendo and crippling hardware
00:54:27  <Diablo-D3> n64 had that whole sgi firmware issue
00:54:39  <Flygon> I just put it down to the Japanese being Japanese
00:54:42  <Diablo-D3> nintendo refused to pay for the good firmware because it'd increase the cost of the n64 a tiny smidgen
00:54:50  <Diablo-D3> thus causing the n64 to be a pile of shit
00:54:54  <Flygon> The Mega Drive did also has some asinine software control practices btw
00:55:03  <Flygon> And some utterly incredibly stupid hardware design decisions
00:55:11  <Diablo-D3> and the only games that fixed it were rouge squadron and that episode 1 popdracing game
00:55:16  <Flygon> Such as somehow forgetting to connect an interrupt line from the Z80 to the YM2612's DAC
00:55:24  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: wat.
00:55:26  <Flygon> Which makes multichannel PCM a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge pain in the ass
00:55:36  <Flygon> I'm serious
00:55:40  <Diablo-D3> in during gams using pcm for drums.
00:55:40  <glx> oups :)
00:55:43  <Diablo-D3> *games
00:55:47  <supermop> ok make it 2 hours, i have to get lunch
00:56:03  <supermop> should i pm these renders or what?
00:56:04  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: I dunno man, I was willing to look into how to make openttd maps have more height
00:56:07  <Flygon> It would've been like
00:56:15  <Flygon> A 50c fix per Mega Drive in the initial production runs
00:56:16  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: but no one was interested in it because "it'd break existing shit"
00:56:23  <Flygon> Just add a wire from the Z80 to the YM, and it's fixed
00:56:29  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: and I got banned for it
00:56:30  <Diablo-D3> so fuck that
00:56:32  <Flygon> And ensure all future production runs are fixed
00:56:41  <Flygon> But nope. Sega borked the Mega Drive permanantly D:
00:57:06  <Flygon>  We could've had 8 channel .mod players for the Mega Drive if we had that interrupt line D:
00:57:09  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: sega was just fucking retarded a lot of places
00:57:19  <Diablo-D3> like, segacd? srsly? 32x? srsly?
00:57:40  <Flygon> The Sega CD, in my opinion
00:57:43  <Flygon> Was actually pretty good
00:57:45  <Diablo-D3> and then decided, hey, lets plug the segacd into the 32x
00:57:48  <Diablo-D3> and upgrade it a little bit
00:57:48  <Flygon> The 32x has no excuse though
00:57:50  <Diablo-D3> BOOM saturn
00:58:11  <Diablo-D3> they didnt pull their heads out of their ass until the dreamcast
00:58:12  <Flygon> The Saturn's not really anything like the Mega Drive
00:58:14  <Diablo-D3> and by then it was too late
00:58:24  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: no, the saturn is a LOT like the 32x
00:58:24  <Flygon> It's their first mainline console not at all derived from the SG-1000
00:58:38  <Flygon> The Saturn and 32x share having two SH-2's
00:58:46  <Flygon> But the 32x worked entirely in softrendering
00:58:54  <Flygon> The Saturn did hardware quad rendering
00:59:04  <Diablo-D3> 32x and saturn are dual sh2s, the saturn dragged in a minature version of the sega 3D arcade game thing's gpu
00:59:13  <Flygon> The Saturn didn't have an entire Mega Drive in the background to help assist it, the 32x did
00:59:13  <glx> 6-button controller reading is silly ;)
00:59:15  <Diablo-D3> absolutely nothing in the saturn was new
00:59:28  <Flygon> (if it's 2D on the 32x, it's probably rendered by the Mega Drive)
00:59:28  <glx> yeah let's play with the control line
00:59:33  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: no 32x game used the genesis hardware, even though it could
00:59:38  <Flygon> What?
00:59:41  <Diablo-D3> except chaotix
00:59:46  <Flygon> Plenty of 32x games used the Mega Drive hardware
00:59:51  <Diablo-D3> not from what I heard
00:59:55  <Flygon> It saved time rendering into the buffer
00:59:59  <Flygon> Tempo, Pitfall...
01:00:15  <Diablo-D3> there were 32x games other than chaotix?
01:00:16  <Diablo-D3> lies.
01:00:18  <Flygon> There's a few more examples too, but those two come to mind as abusing the hell out of the Mega Drive hardware
01:00:29  <Pikka> supermop, where are these trams then?
01:00:37  <Flygon> The 32x did have a good idea in mind... in theory
01:00:42  <Flygon> You COULD be developing a Mega Drive game
01:00:47  <Flygon> Then convert it to use the 32x hardware
01:00:54  <Flygon> In reality, that was incredibly difficult to do
01:01:23  <Flygon> But there is already PoC's made by the hacking community. eg. Sonic 1 for 32x
01:01:35  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: well
01:01:41  <Diablo-D3> no one even used 32x or saturn correctly
01:01:45  <Diablo-D3> because they were both dual sh2s
01:01:53  <Diablo-D3> and not in the nice and friendly SMP way
01:02:17  <Eddi|zuHause> <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: and I got banned for it <-- ok, i let you your belief that that's what actually happened.
01:03:09  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: patch was half done, I nuked it afterwards
01:03:13  <Diablo-D3> so, your loss.
01:03:23  <Flygon> Diablo: I'd still say the 32x was more painful to work with
01:03:28  <Flygon> Want to make a Sega CD 32x application?
01:03:33  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: no such thing.
01:03:37  <Flygon> Have fun working with 5 CPUs and 3 CPU archiatectures at once :D
01:03:44  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: a 32x segacd game is called a saturn game.
01:03:53  <Flygon> No, it was called a 32xCD game
01:03:57  <Flygon> And they actually exist
01:04:05  <Diablo-D3> lies
01:04:10  <Flygon> I'm serious
01:04:14  <Flygon> They were all FMV games tho
01:04:19  <Diablo-D3> name one commercially sold title in the US that did that
01:04:31  <Flygon> They basicaly streamed from the CD, and used the 32x to decode the video then render to framebuffer
01:04:54  <Flygon>
01:05:07  <Flygon> To copypasta
01:05:08  <Flygon> Corpse Killer
01:05:09  <Flygon> Fahrenheit
01:05:09  <Flygon> Night Trap
01:05:09  <Flygon> Slam City with Scottie Pippen
01:05:10  <Flygon> Surgical Strike (Brazil only)
01:05:12  <Flygon> Supreme Warrior
01:06:14  <supermop> Pikka: being rendered in flamingo on my computer right now?
01:06:26  <Pikka> noice
01:06:35  <Flygon> But... yeah
01:06:39  <Flygon> The Sega CD was far more elevant
01:06:44  <supermop> they are not trams per se
01:06:54  <Flygon> It had it's own framebuffer that could transfer tiles to the Mega Drive's VDP
01:06:58  <Flygon> But far more usefully
01:07:18  <supermop> i wanted to make some blocks with the dimensions of the various parts of melbourne trams as place holders
01:07:21  <Flygon> Calculate stuff to, essentially, give the Mega Drive far more efficient use of it's hint/vint functions
01:07:34  <Flygon> Mode 7 on the Mega Drive is trivial and all...
01:07:40  <Flygon> just need good enough use of CPU power :D
01:07:41  <supermop> but then last night i was thinking, may as well make the blocks a little interesting
01:08:04  <supermop> so they are... things
01:08:26  <Pikka> "things". fair enough :)
01:09:25  <supermop> should the background of a 32bpp sprite me clear or solid color?
01:09:28  <supermop> *be
01:09:37  <Pikka> clear
01:09:43  <Pikka> alpha masked
01:11:29  <Eddi|zuHause> <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: patch was half done, I nuked it afterwards <-- so how do you explain this line then? [Mittwoch, 16. Juli 2014] [21:57:53] <Diablo-D3>        frosch123: well, I refuse to do c++
01:12:18  <Diablo-D3> [08:05:08] <Flygon> To copypasta
01:12:25  <Diablo-D3> Flygon: I suspect none of those were licensed titles.
01:12:33  <Flygon> They were all licensed
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01:13:44  <Diablo-D3> Slam City is a basketball game, rendered entirely with full motion video. The player has to gain enough "respect" to play against Scottie Pippen. It was a very large game, distributed over four separate discs.
01:13:45  <Diablo-D3> wat
01:14:27  <Flygon> 90s video codecs were extremely inefficient
01:14:39  <Flygon> And Sega pressed 500mbyte Sega CD discs for some reason
01:14:48  <Flygon> Despite the console having reliably read 750mb ones no problem
01:14:58  <Flygon> Though, 700 is the highest anyone can get anymore
01:15:02  <Flygon> So, yeah
01:15:08  <Flygon> The game was 2 gigabytes of cinepak :U
01:15:29  <Diablo-D3> and then we have 99 minute CDs
01:15:31  <Diablo-D3> or 870mb
01:15:38  <Diablo-D3> which nothing supports sanely
01:15:46  <Flygon> Nothing? As in
01:15:49  <Flygon> Refuses to read?
01:15:54  <Flygon> Dreamcast might read it :B
01:16:53  <Diablo-D3> its really spotty
01:17:00  <Diablo-D3> and some of the most randomest shit will play them
01:17:07  <Diablo-D3> like really old CD players will because they dont know any better
01:17:16  <Flygon> Probably works in the Sega CD then
01:17:22  <Flygon> The thing just reads whatever it's given
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01:17:33  <Flygon> Unfortunately, since it reads whatever it's given
01:17:39  <Flygon> It's error correcting isn't fantasy
01:17:45  <Flygon> 1x CD ROM drive =/
01:17:54  <Diablo-D3> lol error correcting on a cd
01:17:58  <Diablo-D3> nothx
01:18:04  <Flygon> This means you can't stream Redbook and Data at same tie
01:18:09  <Flygon> isn't fantastic*
01:18:13  <Flygon> same time*
01:18:53  <Flygon> Ehh, streaming the audio isn't really necessary on the Sega CD anyway
01:19:04  <Flygon> I mean, you got the YM2612, the PSG, and the Sega CD's bloody Ricoh chip
01:19:06  <Diablo-D3> yeah but it was free
01:19:26  <Flygon> You basically have the early 90s most powerful sound hardware right there
01:19:54  <Flygon> I'd argue the Sega CD's even better at handling sound than the Saturn if used right
01:20:48  <Flygon> Though...
01:21:21  <supermop> i wonder if its worth my time to render a glowing vacuum tube
01:21:55  <Flygon> A SCD track taking full advantage of the hardware of both consoles will be really difficult to replicate on the Saturn (chances are, the FM won't sound right, and to make FM channels on the Saturn, you need to sacrafice PCM channels... 4 op FM means 4 PCM channels used. There's only 32 channels)
01:22:16  <Flygon> But the Sega CD won't be able to handle a track taking full advantage of the Saturn at all
01:26:06  <supermop> should i bother setting up lighting yet?
01:28:02  * Flygon goes for a walk. Good luck supermop. :3
01:31:28  <Pikka> it's worth the time if you want to do it...
01:36:06  <supermop> ok most of the rigging done, going to head to footscray for lunch
01:36:18  <supermop> will pm renders when i get home
01:37:39  <Pikka> ok
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03:57:55  <supermop> alright
03:58:03  <supermop> banh mi was good as always
04:00:29  <supermop> how many px wide is a tile at 4x? 128?
04:01:42  <Pikka> 256, or thereabouts
04:02:04  <supermop> cool
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05:29:48  <V453000> 256 precise thereabouts :P
05:36:30  <supermop> what format should i send these in
05:37:20  <supermop> idk how to scale it right if there is just the tram no tile, so i thought of sending a PSD with tile on layer 0 and rotated views on subsequent layers
05:37:59  <V453000> I just render png
05:38:43  <V453000> though as you can read on my technical documentation pages, I invest a lot of energy into postproduction pipelines to actually get final spritesheets from the renders
05:38:58  <V453000> I can greatly recommend that.
05:39:14  <V453000> for buildings it probably isnt terribly important
05:41:50  <supermop> yeah id like a process like yours
05:42:56  <supermop> i was fighting this morning with rhino's apparent inability to render a specific shape to a specific size as far as i can tell
05:43:47  <supermop> i could set the render output to 256px wide, but could not lock the view so that the tile square was exactly same as render window
05:44:19  <supermop> so now i am rendering larger so that i have pixels to squash when resizing in ps
05:44:53  <supermop> i dont know if its just poorly documented or a function of me using very old software as i cant afford to upgrade
05:47:55  <Pikka> supermop: seperate image per sprite, png format, all the same size and with the vehicle centred in the middle (or more precisely the ground point under the center of the vehicle centered in the middle) would be my preferred format if you want me to code them up quickly. ;)
05:48:40  <supermop> ok
05:49:16  <supermop> 8 views per vehicle?
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06:11:30  <Pikka> 4 or 8, up to you
06:11:40  <Pikka> 4 is okay if it's symmetrical
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06:49:53  <supermop> is .7z ok?
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06:51:56  <supermop> ok i sent it
06:52:09  <supermop> the images at least
06:52:43  <Pikka> k
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07:09:51  <supermop> let me know what else i should do to help
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07:26:49  <Pikka> nice. :P
07:26:59  <Pikka> are there supposed to only be 2 views with the sides open?
07:29:27  <supermop> well i only have one 'car' with a door
07:29:41  <supermop> and i figure stations are only / or \
07:29:55  <supermop> so no need for the other views?
07:30:10  <Pikka> it's not necessarily in the station during loading. and there's also the view in the vehicle info windows. :)
07:30:21  <supermop> ahhh
07:30:38  <supermop> i can render more
07:30:43  <Pikka> I can just use the closed sprites for the other views while loading so it's not a fatal problem, just if you want to provide the extras. up to you. :)
07:31:10  <supermop> i guess if its long it could be in a curve... closed is fine though i think
07:33:18  <supermop> i left the 'bellows' part empty - i assume that when i redraw this as a real tram i'd either have those as part of the cars or as 4 very short vehicles?
07:33:24  <supermop> not sure whats best
07:35:18  <supermop> maybe ill model something from this era of braun design for W or Z class trams:
07:35:20  <supermop>
07:35:51  <supermop> although that was designed by reinhold weiss and he hates that DR gets the credit for it
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07:54:49  <Flygon> supermop: I forgot. Is there anything happening with that W-class/PCC hybrid? :D
07:55:28  <Flygon> Ah, PCC 980, there we go
08:06:41  <supermop> as in does it still exist?
08:06:44  <supermop> idk
08:34:28  <supermop> should i include it?
08:37:09  <supermop> to be honest any tram set i make is most contingent on what other people want to help me with
08:39:09  <supermop> but i am looking to provide breadth while keeping things simple
08:39:40  <supermop> i am most worried about lack of large trams before the b class
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09:26:28  <supermop> time to model another one of these
09:26:59  <supermop> no classic braun gear evocative of e class though
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11:24:36  <Flygon> supermop: It does still exist
11:24:45  <Flygon> And it'll help fill the gap betwen the last W and the first Z
11:24:56  <Flygon> There's also a prototype Z that was also officially a PCC car
11:25:00  <Flygon> 1048 or something like that
11:25:09  <Flygon> It actually used some of PCC 980's parts
11:25:22  <Flygon> 1041, there we go
11:26:21  <Flygon> Ahh
11:26:27  <Flygon> PCC980 was built 1949
11:26:34  <Flygon> PCC 1041 was built 1972
11:27:15  <Flygon> So... you still have a gap between 4 years before Casino Royale and the gap beteen Diamonds and Forever and Live and Let Die
11:28:36  <Flygon> Or: 23 years without any new Tram models
11:28:41  <Flygon> This kinda sucks, but...
11:28:46  <Flygon> Still...
11:28:58  <Flygon> It fills in the gap until the Z1-class came around irl (around 1978)
11:29:25  <Flygon> Oh, 1975
11:29:30  <supermop> well similar in most of the world, most cities were actively dismantling tram networks during that period
11:29:36  <Flygon> So... right after Man With The Golden Gun
11:29:55  <Flygon> supermop: True
11:30:08  <Flygon> But in gameplay, it's still nice to give players as much variety as possible
11:30:22  <Flygon> Also having a Tram that can go 115km/h in 1949 would be really cool :P
11:30:39  <Flygon> (apperantly the PCC980 was driven to 70 miles per hour in testing)
11:30:55  <supermop> but then no one would every upgrade to all of the later 80kmh trams....
11:31:38  * Flygon shrug
11:31:48  <Flygon> Make a toggle inside the .grf
11:31:58  <Flygon> "PCC car can go 115km/h: On/Off"
11:32:28  <Flygon> Of course, if we were obsessing too hard into this
11:32:50  <Flygon> We would look into the history of MTA's operation of the Z's through to B's and see if they were tested PCC style
11:33:00  <Flygon> And see if the C/D's overseas go 115km/h too :P
11:33:31  <Flygon> Though, the PCCs going 115km/h, gameplay-wise... would actually be kinda interesting
11:33:47  <Flygon> In terms of... you could totally use them instead of road coaches :B
11:33:54  <supermop> the D class trams make so much noise outside my house even at 40 kmh that i don't want to imagine 100
11:34:09  <Flygon> Though, then again, that 2CC bus set that's being made has road coaches breaking 160km/h by the 40s
11:34:13  <supermop> i swear they all have wheel flats
11:34:25  <Flygon> supermop: We'll give the passengers industrial earmuffs
11:34:47  <Flygon> I always liked the B-class Trams best myself
11:35:00  <Flygon> They're quiet, comfy, and look really fucking cool
11:35:09  <supermop> also, you would never have street running at 100kmh especially the...
11:35:17  <supermop> i like the A
11:35:41  <supermop> i am considering the hypothetical B3 class to fill the gap until the C1
11:35:58  <Flygon> Hmm
11:36:15  <Flygon> Is it possible for a Tram to detect if it's running on Road+Rails and just Rails?
11:36:26  <Flygon> Er, or just*
11:36:40  <supermop> not yet as far as i know
11:36:53  <Flygon> Bugger
11:36:57  <Flygon> That'd solve a few things
11:37:13  <supermop> but really trams neednt try too hard to be trains...
11:37:15  <Flygon> I mean... mentally
11:37:23  <Flygon> It'd be sensical to work around reality a bit if, say
11:37:32  <Flygon> The PCCs could go 80 on a road, and 115 in the open...
11:37:42  <Flygon> And have that apply to all the future Trams til the low floor ones
11:37:52  <Flygon> Depends how realistic we're being
11:38:47  <supermop> i dont agree with hyper-balance as it makes every game too 'solved', but i think some balance is helpful
11:39:13  <supermop> maybe allowing at least the B class trams to do 90 or so
11:39:30  <supermop> who knows
11:39:56  <supermop> really i just want a super basic tram grf to get me kicked into gear to do houses
11:42:21  * Flygon nodnod
11:42:39  <Flygon> The eGVTRicantspellit set has nice Trams and all...
11:42:41  <Flygon> And buses
11:42:45  <Flygon> But the problem is...
11:42:50  <Flygon> They just feel all weird until the 90s
11:43:01  <Flygon> The speeds are off, the capacities are off... y'know?
11:43:14  <Flygon> ...if the author is in this channel, I know I'm going to get punched in the face
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11:56:32  <supermop> alright im off to bed
12:06:15  <Flygon> Sleep well!
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13:57:58  <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
13:57:58  <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 15 hours, 51 minutes, and 48 seconds ago: <andythenorth> bye
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14:21:15  <Belugas> hello
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14:30:27  <Celestar> hello Belugas :D
14:32:33  <V453000> hyhyhyhyhhyhyhhyhyhyh
14:40:11  <Xaroth|Work> o/ Belugas
14:42:00  <LordAro> i should look at this channel more often
14:42:02  <LordAro> o/
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15:01:44  <Belugas> Celestar??? Hooowww!!!! That's a name that go4s back a looooong time ago :D
15:02:13  <V453000> :)
15:02:48  <Belugas> Xaroth, V453000, hello to you too :D
15:06:47  <Celestar> :D
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15:08:41  <Belugas> so, mister pilot, how is the sky over the old continent?
15:08:59  <Belugas> Ground Control to major Celestar hahahah!!
15:09:04  <Celestar> :P
15:09:27  <Celestar> not sure, I have just returned to the old continent after 3 months.
15:09:44  <Belugas> seriously??  where have you been?
15:09:55  <Belugas> don't tell me you were here and not waved at all!!!
15:10:10  <Celestar> Southeast Asia, Australia, Hawai'i, LA and Vegas.
15:10:42  <Belugas> just one word: WOW
15:10:51  <Belugas> business trip or second honey moon ?
15:10:53  <Belugas> hahaha
15:12:49  <Celestar> well since we didn't have a first honeymoon :P
15:15:15  <Belugas> you decided to take a really decent one then ;)
15:15:19  <Belugas> it was nice?
15:16:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the weather was probably nicer :p
15:16:28  <Belugas> much nicer than here for sure ...
15:16:36  <Celestar> lol
15:16:42  <Celestar> the weather was mostly good :)
15:16:45  <Celestar> not always.
15:16:54  <Celestar> we managed to bring rain to Uluru/Ayer's Rock :D
15:17:04  <Eddi|zuHause> pff :p
15:18:24  <Belugas> you expected 3 months of no rain at all?  does Sahara rings a bell to you?  hahaha!!!1
15:18:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well, when it does rain in the sahara, you get crazy floods
15:19:01  <Celestar> hah
15:19:04  <Celestar> it was good.
15:19:22  <Celestar> because temperature was down to 35 the following day
15:20:22  <Belugas> i've been to a few tropical islands, and one thing i always loved was the rain.  small, refreshing, immediatly followed by nice sun ;)
15:21:02  <Belugas> so the guys must have praised you loike gods to bring some rain, in the end :D
15:21:25  <Celestar> ;)
15:21:30  <Celestar> we loved the whole trip
15:23:46  <Belugas> i bet you did :)  coming back from such a ling time must be a big cultural shock
15:24:51  <Celestar> not only that.
15:24:56  <Celestar> also a temperature shock
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15:27:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i had that when i was on the US east coast (in 2000, when the world wasn't broken yet). i was there in april, and they had like 30°C, like the warmest day of the year, and when i got back a week later, it was here -4°C
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15:34:13  <Celestar> good old times.
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15:34:31  <samu> hi
15:36:29  <Belugas> glad for you sir :)
15:36:32  <Belugas> hello samu
15:37:58  <roidal> o/
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16:01:25  <samu> i have a small request
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16:01:52  <samu> when typing a password into company, could it be hidden, or masked?
16:01:59  <samu> ****
16:02:03  <samu> like that
16:02:28  <samu> protecting it from twitch viewers
16:02:53  <samu> or maybe a toggle button, show/hide
16:05:42  <^Spike^> isn't that the show/hide button in xsplit/obs? ;)
16:07:00  <Alberth> it's stored in plain text in the openttd.cfg file, so displaying *** has no meaning anyway
16:07:10  <Alberth> just don't use an important password
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16:07:45  <^Spike^> i think it's more to prevent viewers from randomly joining the game and the company he's in
16:07:46  <Celestar> :P
16:07:57  <^Spike^> which i can understand
16:07:59  <Alberth> /me wonders about a "****" password
16:08:08  <^Spike^> cause twitch viewers can be a *&$()*@#$ :)
16:08:28  <^Spike^> hehe
16:10:13  <samu> yes, like spike says
16:10:29  <^Spike^> but i would just go for a quick scene switch
16:11:11  <^Spike^> or obscure the view where the pw is supposed to be in a scene
16:11:18  <^Spike^> key bindings should make switching easy on that :)
16:11:31  <^Spike^> but that's just on the obs/xsplit side :)
16:11:49  <samu> what im doing right now is dragging the window
16:11:57  <samu> outside the main view
16:12:12  <^Spike^> or that
16:12:23  <samu> password window dragging
16:12:43  <^Spike^> but you could always make it a feature request if it's not there atm i can't say anything about when (devs are gonna hate me for this :))
16:13:02  <samu> it's one of those "meh" requiests thoug
16:13:33  <^Spike^> in the end if enough ppl want it... (yep and this is why the devs would hate me... for this comment :D))
16:14:36  <Alberth> like we run a democracy :p
16:15:01  <^Spike^> hehe
16:15:13  <^Spike^> well if you have 100 players ask for the same small thing are you gonna ignore it? :)
16:15:44  <Alberth> I never look at counts
16:15:54  <^Spike^> :)
16:16:01  <^Spike^> i try the same here
16:16:07  <^Spike^> but if 10 customers say: it's broken
16:16:10  <^Spike^> i can't say: Nope! :)
16:16:15  <samu>
16:16:20  <samu> omg my password
16:16:24  <^Spike^> well i can.... but my manager will prob kill me :)
16:19:02  <roidal> is there a way to create a lake?
16:19:25  <Alberth> people actually watch this stuff?
16:19:41  <Alberth> roidal: make a hole, and a channel from the ocean
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16:19:54  <Alberth> then raise the channel again
16:20:01  <roidal> hm
16:20:14  <roidal> so there is no tool like "canal"
16:20:16  <roidal> but only
16:20:19  <roidal> "lake"?
16:20:21  <roidal> :D
16:20:24  <^Spike^> i think ppl would look weird at me if i watch twitch....
16:20:30  <^Spike^> oh who am i kidding...
16:20:36  * ^Spike^ is running youtube on monitor 3 all day :)
16:21:05  <Alberth> ppl won't see the difference, except for it being a somewhat long YT movie :p
16:21:13  <^Spike^> hehe
16:21:54  <roidal> hm, what exactly is the difference game internally between "lake" and canal
16:22:10  <roidal> it seems that "lake" converts canal?
16:23:01  <Alberth> we have different ship speeds for canals and non-canals (in some form of non-canals)
16:23:14  <Alberth> but  I don't know the precise rule
16:23:17  <roidal> k
16:23:44  <roidal> ok, and rivers, is there a way to make a own river?
16:24:07  <Eddi|zuHause> only in scenario editor
16:26:34  <roidal> k
16:26:36  <roidal> ty!
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16:44:57  <peter1138> Damn, Marten spent all weekend in bed...
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16:53:26  <Eddi|zuHause> is that not what people do?
16:54:03  <peter1138> Well... not me :(
16:57:22  <Belugas> i wish i could.  but not while been sick
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17:45:41  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27141 /trunk/src/lang (indonesian.txt korean.txt) (2015-02-09 17:45:34 UTC)
17:45:42  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:43  <DorpsGek> indonesian - 57 changes by fanioz
17:45:44  <DorpsGek> korean - 3 changes by telk5093
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19:14:10  <samu> who's been trying my newgrf?
19:14:16  <samu> i see 530 downloads
19:15:38  <frosch123> that means it is 4 days old
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19:16:30  <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
19:16:30  <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 21 hours, 10 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <andythenorth> bye
19:18:21  <samu> 530 downloads means it's 4 days old? what the heck?
19:18:30  *** Pensacola [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:18:46  <frosch123> the majority of downloads is caused by people who download everything
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19:24:29  <Wolf01> hi hi
19:24:48  <Alberth> moin
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19:25:25  <chillcore> hello all ;)
19:27:07  <chillcore>
19:27:54  <chillcore> Alberth I threw that in your general direction yesterday but you had already left ;)
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19:28:43  <chillcore> some more coding style in genworld_gui
19:29:14  <chillcore> patches like these are fine or you prefer not?
19:30:30  <chillcore> I mean I would not mind going over a few files now and then to change my mind a bit ...
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19:31:36  <Alberth> it looks like this code would be chopped to bits mostly
19:32:08  <chillcore> how so? it is just trailing dots and there is only two comments I adjusted slighly
19:32:38  <Alberth> but it's all in the newgame code, which is planned to get turned upside down :p
19:32:50  <chillcore> yes ...
19:32:59  <Alberth> in general, I rather sneak these changes in while doing other stuff
19:33:05  <chillcore> hehe I can do other files ...
19:33:16  <planetmaker> sneaky Alberth :)
19:33:27  <Alberth> ssst!  :p
19:33:45  <chillcore> ok I understand ... it is just that I kinda plan of doing all files bit by bit
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19:34:44  <chillcore> but as you wish ... there is plenty of other thing too
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19:36:41  <andythenorth> o/
19:36:44  <planetmaker> hg log -u Alberth -r'keyword(-Doc)' --template='{desc}\n' | wc -l ----> returns 77 :)
19:36:46  <Wolf01> nice... I just learned of real life math overflow
19:37:25  <chillcore> don't mean to be nagging on but when we patchers do this in our patches (outside of code we modifie) Rubidiium tend to get a bit upset?
19:37:58  <chillcore> damn keyboard ... grabbing cabled
19:40:00  * andythenorth has been busy doing important things
19:43:40  <frosch123> Wolf01: riemann sphere?
19:43:47  <Wolf01> yeah
19:44:02  <frosch123> circles and straight lines are the same :)
19:44:34  <Wolf01> but just the sum of all natural numbers from 1 to +inf results to -1/12
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19:54:35  <Alberth> planetmaker: lots of doxymentation adding and pselling fixes, rather than just dots :)
19:55:29  <planetmaker> yeah, I know :) probably the search could be refined more :P
19:56:20  <planetmaker> but that's what I could quickly come up using revsets to search for it
19:57:03  <andythenorth> ho station names aren’t going down well with Eddi|zuHause :)
19:57:05  <chillcore> hmm not the right connectors ... shopping tomorrow and receiving strange look for asking where the cabled cabled are
19:57:25  <chillcore> s cabled/keyboards
19:58:55  <Wolf01> I had the same problem, had shopping time saturday and they had only wifi keyboards, then I was afraid to ask for a gaming cabled keyboard
20:00:35  <chillcore> ok. so only dots mayhem if many other fixes are included ... gotcha. Alberth.
20:03:47  <chillcore> Wolf01, I think this one is IR still ... when I point in the wrong direction it fails half of the time. and as I am in my sofa with keyboard on lap ...
20:07:55  <Alberth> dots are nice, but there are more interesting things to do :)
20:09:05  <chillcore> yes indeed ... I just happened to have that file open ... I did think about adding extra comments at first but as you say that file is about to be garbled up ;)
20:09:11  <planetmaker> chillcore, it's no mistake to collect them
20:09:28  <chillcore> And them dots need doing in the end anyways
20:10:34  <chillcore> true planetmaker, but of little use if not commited at the same time? one commit and the patch has conflicts
20:10:51  <chillcore> you'd still know where they are missing that I agree
20:11:33  <planetmaker> chillcore, yes... as alberth said, it often makes sense to commit them along with stuff which changes the vicinity anyway
20:11:58  <planetmaker> though I think his main argument is: it makes sense - except there where it's going to change anyway and where people have patch series which will break
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20:12:29  <chillcore> where people have pacth series ... you mean the whole codebase :P
20:12:31  <planetmaker> (and no, this argument is not necessarily always consistent. It's a case by case argument ;) )
20:12:35  <chillcore> I do get the point
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20:23:59  <chillcore> quick question in regards of keeping consistancy in my coding style... which is prefered? "if (x == y) command;" or "x == y ? command;"
20:24:14  <chillcore> going to clean up some of my if statements ...
20:25:37  <frosch123> what? the latter is not even valid syntax?`
20:29:18  <frosch123> anyway, if you mean the ? : operator, use it if the result of ( ? : ) is used
20:29:35  <frosch123> use "if () {} else {}", if it is control flow only
20:30:56  <chillcore> hmm ... right what was I thinking I thought I could omit the if ...
20:31:05  <frosch123> well, and don't use the comma operator to trick that rule :p
20:31:56  <Alberth> we have some fine examples why that is a bad idea :p
20:32:27  <chillcore> comma operator eh ... never used it ... at least not knowingly :P
20:32:48  <frosch123> keep it like that :p
20:33:08  <chillcore> thanks for the hint
20:34:07  <chillcore> not very fond of my usage of extern neither ...
20:34:30  <chillcore> it works but maintainability afterwards might suffer I think
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20:51:25  <supermop> good morning
20:52:09  <planetmaker> hi hi
20:53:30  <supermop> hows the top part of the world doing yesterday?
20:54:23  <chillcore> warmer then yesterday, at least here  ... hi supermop ;)
20:58:23  <supermop> well might be close to 40 today and tomorrow
20:58:49  <planetmaker> close to 4°C today here ;)
20:59:05  <supermop> or rather i think the forecast is 95 today because i still cant get used to using real temperature except for making coffee
20:59:51  <supermop> maybe surf again tomorrow
21:00:04  <supermop> I should make some more Dieter Trams
21:02:22  <planetmaker> hm... I dug out an ancient desktop. It has OpenTTD r12932 :P
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21:04:53  <dreck> hi
21:06:38  <Alberth> o/
21:06:47  <andythenorth> Iron Horse!
21:08:52  <dreck> andy doesn't that seem to share a cosmetic resemblence to the New Haven dual-cab carbody electric units?
21:09:54  <dreck> ah name was easier than I
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21:10:15  <andythenorth> yup
21:10:53  <dreck> I dunno when it happened and why but also about that mesh over the window... Amtrak did the same thing to some of their own highspeed units for some apparent reason before
21:10:57  <dreck> looks a bit ugly but meh
21:11:55  <glx> maybe to protect from birds
21:12:23  <andythenorth> protects from kids throwing stones
21:12:40  <dreck> ah, idiotic bridge patrons .. that would make sense
21:13:13  <dreck> say that reminds me of a certain thomas story with Henry ... caused a bit problem as the initial release was worded "as black as niggers"
21:13:29  <dreck> but the story was that some bored kids dropped stones onto the train causing several broken coach windows
21:14:07  <glx> broken window is not the main problem
21:14:22  <glx> but there can be people behing the window
21:14:30  <glx> *behind
21:15:07  <dreck> the payback?  (for anyone who may have not read it) the next visit .. henry was intentionally stuffed up then when they got close to the bridge henry left off a BIG sneeze of smoke causing the mischevious childrens to never ever come back to the bridge again
21:16:43  <supermop> hey andy why cant my tropical citizens drink any of this fine coffee they are growing?
21:16:44  <dreck> glx also believe it or not but some people still try putting coins and other small metal objects on the rails .. not a very good idea
21:19:39  <dreck> anyway back to that other subject.. andy how about this for something a lot less flashy and more work in china? heh
21:20:03  <dreck> ;)
21:20:15  <chillcore> I used to to that as a kid ...putting coind on rails ... we did have the sense to hide behind the signalling house
21:20:24  <chillcore> coins*
21:20:45  <chillcore> still stupid though
21:24:53  <samu> hi, i have yet some questions about cargo dist
21:25:21  <dreck> how did your rigs go samu?
21:25:25  <samu> some of my wood trucks have a last year profit that
21:25:31  <andythenorth> supermop: dunno, they choose to export it
21:25:44  <andythenorth> makes no sense to me, but eh
21:25:44  <samu> is negative, higher than their running costs
21:26:13  <samu> they are getting Cost: in some trips, how is that possible. I thought it would adjust itself in the end
21:26:49  <Alberth>
21:28:37  <supermop> not sure how much coffee is consumed in most coffee growing regions
21:28:46  <supermop> quite high in VN though
21:29:21  <supermop> wonder if an indochina economy would be much different
21:29:25  <samu> my oil rig is finished. there's some side effect with it, but I can't do anything about it
21:29:39  <samu> I'm gonna read that
21:29:43  <supermop> just needs renaming something to be rice
21:30:27  <supermop> nd add fishing grounds back in
21:31:28  <dreck> allright then
21:31:33  <dreck> at least hope you had fun samu
21:35:20  <samu> i guess I gave a headache to some ppl here that were trying to help me
21:37:01  <andythenorth> supermop: will probably do some Asian economy, not sure which sub-region
21:37:14  <andythenorth> rice, maybe electronics
21:37:16  <samu> at least something was fixed
21:37:26  <samu> about the grfcodec or so
21:37:47  * DanMacK wants a chance to do some Chinese steam
21:38:15  <supermop> Vietnam has a small but varied assortment of locomotive history, SG and NG
21:38:45  <supermop> i believe rest of indochina is all SG, as is Thailand and Malaysia
21:39:01  <dreck> danmack as long as that includes the class that were the last ones to run in normal operations till late 90's or so .. I forgot the class but it was at least 4 or 5 coupled with the elephant ears too
21:39:08  <dreck> coupled axles*
21:39:31  <supermop> VN also has floating villages in case you want a reskin of a fishing ground
21:39:44  <andythenorth> burma / malay states have rubber
21:39:59  <supermop> lack of cliffs in ottd makes Ha Long bay pretty boring though
21:40:27  <supermop> Burma has some mineral wealth I think
21:41:13  <supermop> VN has large but undeveloped bauxite reserves, Gas and oil at sea contested with CN, and a lot of plastic and textile factories
21:41:51  <supermop> Hmm, once you add in more than a couple SEA states you are just back to full firs with tropical names....
21:41:52  <andythenorth>
21:42:05  <andythenorth> it needs a subset
21:42:14  <andythenorth> otherwise yeah, full FIRS
21:42:30  <andythenorth> and it needs a distinctive gameplay
21:42:45  <andythenorth> so Heart of Darkness is all about explorting primaries
21:42:50  <supermop> Same issue with China
21:42:59  <supermop> too big and varied
21:43:06  <supermop> and subcontinent
21:43:27  <chillcore> supermop: untill we get a rotating and tilting camera in openttd (and the shitload of graphics that goes with it) cliffs is a really bad idea because that will create invisible/unreachable  areas.
21:43:35  <supermop> even in the US you would need separate NE South and West regions
21:44:18  <supermop> chillcore: best way to make karst formations until then is new objects i guess
21:44:49  <chillcore> I dunno never gave it much thought after realising the above ...
21:44:56  <dreck> anyway have to go for a while now sorry :-s
21:45:06  <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: an idea that was floating around was to introduce the ability to cut the terrain at a horizontal level
21:45:09  <dreck> if anyone sees ngc..tell him I'll be back not too long later mr.sleepy :p
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21:45:29  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ?
21:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: additionally, that would be a GUI for subterranean construction
21:45:37  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: that would have made locomotion playable for me
21:46:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just don't display any tiles above y=<value>
21:46:22  <Eddi|zuHause> like transparency
21:46:24  <chillcore> there was a ptch for that ... underground construction ... not sure what happened to its development
21:46:26  <andythenorth> makes sense
21:46:38  <samu> i see, but there's still something very strange going on with cargo dist
21:46:41  <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: that was smatz's experiment
21:46:49  <supermop> Fiance went to Burma but i couldn't take off enough time
21:46:58  <supermop> these photos make me regret it
21:47:07  <chillcore> I do not recall Supermop
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21:48:20  <samu> I have 5 stations, 2 for 2 forests, 2 for 1 sawmill and 1 for another sawmill
21:48:55  <samu> i have trucks picking lumber at where it was supposed to be accepted
21:49:03  <samu> at one of the sawmill stations
21:49:28  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: use "unload and no loading"
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21:50:06  <samu> it takes it to transfer at one of the forest stations, and then I just get lost with it, it's like it's moving lumber around a couple times
21:50:27  <samu> and once it really delivers it to a sawmill, I get the Cost
21:50:49  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: it probably tries a zigzag route, because the direct link is saturated
21:51:09  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: but this won't work properly, because the routes are not really an alternative
21:51:24  <Eddi|zuHause> samu: with "unload and no loading" you prevent this alternate route
21:51:29  <Diablo-D3> where does openttd store its user files on windows? ie, where is ~/.openttd
21:51:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: documents\openttd
21:52:32  <Eddi|zuHause> or "my documents" in XP
21:52:37  <andythenorth> always use ‘no loading’ with cargodist for deliveries
21:52:48  <samu> oki
21:52:50  <andythenorth> and ‘transfer and leave empty’ for transfers
21:52:57  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: thanks
21:53:00  <andythenorth> anything else is prone to unwanted outcomes
21:53:06  <Diablo-D3> also, Im surprised 1920x1080 doesnt appear in the resolution box
21:53:09  <Diablo-D3> or 1280x720
21:53:14  <Diablo-D3> seeing as I have a 16:9 monitor
21:53:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: that depends on what your graphics card driver reports
21:53:40  <samu> 1600x900
21:53:52  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: its a radeon, it shows up in other games =P
21:54:01  <Diablo-D3> I just assume its GDI weirdness since no one legitimately uses that anymore
21:54:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: in any case, it's something outside the scope of openttd
21:54:43  <Diablo-D3> yeah, I just had to manually edit the cfg
21:54:45  <Diablo-D3> works now
21:56:04  <samu> i got a radeon and i dont have that problem
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22:05:42  <samu> cargo dist should be called cargo mess
22:05:49  <samu> cargo split :p
22:06:40  <samu> a more fitting name
22:07:39  <Eddi|zuHause> so how would you distribute something without splitting it first?
22:11:55  <samu> cargo with personality
22:12:22  <samu> it's just quite confusing
22:12:40  <samu> I understand it much better now, but still, sometimes... it surprises me
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22:14:11  <andythenorth> it’s counter-intuitive
22:14:36  <andythenorth> there is no convenient mental model, unless you understand graph theory
22:14:39  <andythenorth> but it works
22:15:17  <andythenorth> yacd was much more intuitive, but had the sad problem of not quite working
22:15:48  <samu> "my name is wood. why are you taking me to that lumber mill? I don't like that lumber mill, I prefer the other one"
22:16:00  <samu> :)
22:17:44  <andythenorth> just keep your networks separate
22:17:49  <andythenorth> *cargo networks
22:18:00  <andythenorth> never supply two destinations from one source
22:18:43  <andythenorth> unless it’s FIRS supplies :P
22:19:11  * andythenorth -> bed
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22:38:22  <chillcore> samu: what is strange about cargodist? Your vehicles have routes ad corgo wants to go somewhere, not always via the most logical (to you) route but that is what happens in the real world too ...
22:39:35  <chillcore> drivers have their route and stuff gets shoved in the back that happens to be on their route, be it the final destination or a depot (transfer at station in this case)
22:40:02  <chillcore> you can set it to manual ...
22:42:18  <chillcore> ^^^ for certain cargos so that only passengers are "cargodisted"
22:42:49  <chillcore> or use explicit orders to overide cargodist for your wood trucks/trains
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23:21:14  <chillcore> goodnight all
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23:40:46  <dreck> hi
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23:47:24  <Wolf01> 'night
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