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00:01:18 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@blfd-5d823d73.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 00:02:29 <samu> RS then 00:03:18 <samu> must I really start with version 0? 00:03:31 <samu> can i start at version 1 immediately? 00:09:38 <samu> Some Vehicles Never Expire v0 - weird version 00:13:39 <samu> SH '125' or 'Dash'? I know it's up to me, but, I need opinions 00:15:25 <samu> part of me is inclined to keep SH 125 available forever, but if I apply the same logic that I used for the other models, the last model that is expired normally is the one that would be changed to stay available forever 00:15:41 <samu> that's the 'Dash' 00:23:31 <samu> no one has an opinion at all? 00:26:28 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-170-165.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 00:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: the version does not have to start at 0 00:32:45 <Eddi|zuHause> 0 is usually used for GRFs that were released before the version existed 00:33:57 <supermop> yo 00:36:57 <supermop> how is everyone? 00:42:22 <Eddi|zuHause> asleep, mostly 00:44:56 *** quorzom [~quorzom@cable-78-35-98-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:18 <samu> ah, oki 01:05:52 <samu> 5 vehicles: Powernaut Diesel (Toyland), 'Dash' (Diesel) (Temperate), 'Turner Turbo' (Diesel) (Sub-Arctic, Sub-Tropic), Flashbang X1 (Toyland), Guru X2 Helicopter (Temperate, Sub-Arctic, Sub-Tropic) 01:16:58 <samu> im testing my grf and already some issue... the order which Powernaut Diesel shows in the list is altered :( 01:17:07 <samu> why :/ 01:17:44 <samu> EngineID (classic sort) 01:18:29 <samu> flashbang x1 expired, what the heck :( 01:22:51 <samu> what's wrong with my text: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pchthae2x 01:25:17 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: you can reorder the vehicles in the purchase list 01:29:33 <samu> guru x2 helicopter disappeared as well :( what did I do wrong 01:30:00 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-74-111-111-176.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 01:32:46 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-74-111-111-176.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:34:03 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:58 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 01:52:47 <samu> ah I see what I did wrong 01:53:03 <samu> NML id numbers are different 02:41:23 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 02:56:20 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@00017153.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:28 *** Biolunar_ [Biolunar@blfd-4d024376.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 03:02:44 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@00017153.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 03:06:33 *** lilblu [~oftc-webi@S0106002401770612.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 03:06:49 <lilblu> can someone help me intall vs_hard_pack.0.8.165.r25739M.patch 03:07:16 *** lilblu [~oftc-webi@S0106002401770612.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [] 03:08:31 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@blfd-5d823d73.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:12:31 *** DDR [~david@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 03:19:22 *** Xaroth_ [~Xaroth@254-058-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #openttd 03:19:22 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@00017153.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:45 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 03:44:26 *** urdh [urdh@00013d7a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:52:46 *** urdh [urdh@00013d7a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 03:59:47 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@blfd-5d82284f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 04:06:45 *** Biolunar_ [Biolunar@blfd-4d024376.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:07:40 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@00017153.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 04:07:41 *** Xaroth_ [~Xaroth@254-058-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:10:50 *** samu [~oftc-webi@a85-139-81-208.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:14:33 *** DDR [~david@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14:54 *** DDR [~david@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 04:41:24 *** gnu_jj [~rofl@ipb21b7994.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 06:43:36 *** liq3 [~liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:34:45 *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz 08:02:32 *** __ln__ [~lauri@cable-tku-58c3cb-155.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:23 *** __ln__ [~lauri@cable-tku-58c3cb-155.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:18:12 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Valete omnes] 08:21:58 *** hsknz [~hsknz@0001f970.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: :)] 08:23:57 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 08:25:18 <supermop> yo andythenorth 08:25:31 <andythenorth> moin 08:26:30 <supermop> hows the north bit of that island doing today? 08:27:13 <andythenorth> grey 08:27:19 * andythenorth is not in the north 08:28:19 <supermop> maybe i am remembering your old forum location of 'spiritual home of TT' which i always assumed was Glasgow 08:32:02 <andythenorth> ha ha 08:32:03 <andythenorth> no 08:32:06 <andythenorth> chipping sodbury 08:37:23 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:c591:83e8:24fe:5aba] has joined #openttd 08:53:07 <supermop> ah 09:09:02 <planetmaker> moin 09:12:38 <supermop> hi planetmaker 09:25:06 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 09:27:04 *** Namekk [~oftc-webi@89.137.134.61] has joined #openttd 09:27:22 <Namekk> Hellooo!! 09:28:04 <supermop> hi 09:28:11 <Namekk> oh good 09:28:48 <Namekk> Can you help me with something?:d 09:29:02 *** kais58 is now known as kais58|AFK 09:29:53 <Namekk> Can someone tell me how to play open TTD with oponent computer 09:32:10 <peter1138> You need to download an AI with the in-game content downloader. 09:33:55 <Namekk> What is AI and where i can download 09:34:36 <peter1138> AI is Artificial Intelligence 09:34:45 <peter1138> And... you download it in game. 09:37:23 <Namekk> Content downloading from there i can download the AI? 09:38:24 <V453000> just try it :) 09:43:32 <Namekk> i heave many AI files to download what is the best one? 09:44:14 <planetmaker> what's your metric for a 'good AI'? 09:44:17 <planetmaker> https://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_AIs 09:53:53 *** itsatacoshop247 [~itsatacos@c-76-102-167-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:56:02 <supermop> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/BellIslandPierCa1900.jpg 09:58:20 <Namekk> i download Nocab 09:58:28 <Namekk> thnx for help 09:59:04 *** Namekk [~oftc-webi@89.137.134.61] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:01:47 *** liq3 [~liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 10:06:37 *** shirish [~quassel@117.195.111.205] has joined #openttd 10:14:07 *** andythenorth [~Andy@194.168.185.226] has joined #openttd 10:15:26 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 10:40:38 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 11:21:28 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 11:26:15 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@D97BA869.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 11:41:05 <V453000> WTF mess is at the bridge sprites ._. 11:41:12 <V453000> some are recoloured, some stuff is re-used in other places 11:41:15 <V453000> good stuff 11:44:03 <planetmaker> yep, very lovely 11:44:42 <V453000> just holy shit :D 11:45:30 <V453000> all bridge heads have 2 kinds per track/road? 11:45:34 <V453000> wooden/normal ? 11:46:49 <planetmaker> hu? 12:02:06 <V453000> confoozion 12:02:07 <V453000> buut 12:02:10 <V453000> yuah 12:02:12 <V453000> looks what way 12:07:07 <V453000> right I think I understand how it works already 12:07:09 <V453000> quite a wtf 12:12:52 <V453000> and the 3-4 tile concrete bridge is just recoloured middle-part of suspension bridges XD 12:18:19 <supermop> ha 12:18:38 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:18:47 <supermop> the plain 48kmh one? 12:19:21 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 12:21:45 <V453000> yeah 12:21:47 <V453000> just like 12:21:48 <V453000> what 12:21:49 <V453000> :D 12:28:01 <V453000> well the good news is that I probably can make very different bridges for every type of thing ... road / rail / monorail / maglev 12:28:13 <V453000> which is grate 12:31:15 *** shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 12:31:37 <V453000> actually not 12:31:38 <V453000> nvm :D 12:32:40 *** shirish [~quassel@117.195.111.205] has joined #openttd 12:34:20 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 12:34:39 <planetmaker> @calc 74*365*21/12 12:34:39 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 47267.5 12:35:33 <V453000> ticks for year? :P 12:35:46 <V453000> times something :D 12:35:58 <planetmaker> yeah :P 12:36:18 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=72620 <-- I was wondering whether there was a data type reason for choosing 21 months :P 12:36:43 <planetmaker> @calc 74*365*2 12:36:43 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 54020 12:37:00 <planetmaker> @commit 26582 12:37:00 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Commit by rubidium :: r26582 /trunk/src (station_base.h station_cmd.cpp) (2014-05-11 18:35:34 UTC) 12:37:01 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: -Feature-ish: quickly decay cargo after about 21 months of not having picked any of the cargo, and prevent houses and industries providing more cargo 12:38:23 <V453000> that is handy actually 12:38:29 <V453000> as some dudes say there 12:39:15 <planetmaker> yes 12:45:36 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #openttd 12:49:16 <supermop> looks good to me 12:49:23 <supermop> goodnight all up there 12:50:46 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 256*185 12:50:46 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 47360 12:50:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: close enough? 12:51:40 <Eddi|zuHause> 185 ticks is the usual cargo aging (and rating adjustment, etc.) step 12:57:26 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-170-165.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:05:13 *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@86.92.59.88] has joined #openttd 13:09:46 *** shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:47 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.19.137] has joined #openttd 13:25:32 *** JacobD88 [~Thunderbi@cpc20-stap11-2-0-cust392.12-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 13:31:10 <V453000> 172 bridge sprites? 13:32:12 <V453000> without gui 13:39:46 *** Celestar1 [~Celestar@mnch-5d85cf5f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:41:00 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@D97BA869.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 13:44:19 <planetmaker> sounds reasonable. Though the 44 gui sprites don't hurt :) 13:44:57 <planetmaker> V453000, going for a 1:1 sprite replacement, yes? (Or planning some custom bridge re-definitions, going into nfo territory :P)? 13:46:34 *** DanMacK [~3fee8a84@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:46:41 <DanMacK> Hey all 13:47:17 <planetmaker> o/ 13:47:36 <raincomplex> is this channel usually this active? 13:47:57 <DanMacK> sometimes 13:48:05 <planetmaker> this is quite normal level, yes 13:48:11 <raincomplex> i had no idea this game had such an active community 13:48:15 <raincomplex> it's really cool 13:48:39 <DanMacK> yeah this ain't the half of it... lol 13:48:42 <planetmaker> it's the usual crowd hanging around here ;) 13:48:56 <planetmaker> especially in EU evening 13:49:01 <DanMacK> Some of us have been developing for the game for more than a decade 13:49:27 <planetmaker> he, yeah... I'm always astonished to find how long I'm around here already 13:49:36 <raincomplex> :D 13:50:42 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd 13:50:52 <planetmaker> but then, it only is alive as it is due to new people joining in all the time 13:51:09 * LordAro feels obligated to be active 13:51:19 <planetmaker> good so! 13:51:24 <planetmaker> :P 13:51:25 <LordAro> :) 13:51:27 * DanMacK is active when he feels like it 13:51:34 <LordAro> how's everyone today? 13:51:39 <DanMacK> Tired! 13:52:08 <planetmaker> drowning in burocracy today morning. hopefully better afternoon 13:53:28 <LordAro> woo 13:53:39 <V453000> planetmaker: is 1:1 the ONLY option for a base set, or are there other options? 13:53:51 * LordAro is (hopefully) signing contract for job for the next year 13:53:52 <V453000> I dont have huge problems with 1:1 and it easily tells me what needs to be done 13:53:59 <V453000> perhaps some alternative stuff I can do later Eventually 13:54:31 <V453000> but alternative stuff kind of neglects the main thing :) I would like to keep it simple and make the basic thing nice enough already, even though the "code" is limited in some parts 13:54:34 <planetmaker> V453000, for a base set there 1:1 is the only option 13:54:57 <planetmaker> (and the newgrf bridge specs aren't really spectacular... so not sure it's actually worth the trouble currently) 13:55:22 <V453000> aye 13:55:26 <V453000> that is all I need to know :) 13:55:29 <V453000> but yeah, 1:1 is fine 13:55:30 <planetmaker> :) 13:56:08 <planetmaker> everything 1:1 is what basesets do. You only have a choice of the looks. Not of how the sprites compose for them 13:56:31 <V453000> sure, I understand that, I just asked since you suggested a different method :P 13:56:39 <planetmaker> the only notable exception is about a few things which go into the extra grf of the base set. Mainly rivers and canals 13:56:45 <V453000> just replacing things is most convenient for me too, just replacing sprites is easy code 13:56:54 <V453000> right 13:56:54 <planetmaker> yeah, quite :) 13:57:15 *** andythenorth [~Andy@194.168.185.226] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 13:57:41 <planetmaker> did I suggest a different method? I must have been out of my mind :) 13:57:58 <V453000> eh not exactly, but you mentioned hellish nfo :P 13:58:20 <planetmaker> :) 13:58:25 *** andythenorth [~Andy@194.168.185.226] has joined #openttd 13:58:28 <V453000> mentioning nfo is enough of a crime to consider it a suggestion already! 13:58:29 <planetmaker> nml doesn't know grfspecs for bridges yet 13:58:34 <V453000> yar 13:58:41 <V453000> no problemo 13:58:52 <planetmaker> yup. with replacement it's simplissimo 13:59:41 <V453000> (: 13:59:56 <V453000> ... btw I do intend to do GUI at some point, but probably later :) 14:00:11 <V453000> I want to handle that with some more care, when I have most of the things to go there 14:01:31 <planetmaker> V453000, especially, GUI also needs 4 sizes. But I thought it easiest to create the GUI sprites along with bridges... as they contain images of the bridge shown 14:02:13 <planetmaker> also... easy sizes: 20x20px as base or or 20x40 or 20x120 for the rectangular ones 14:04:54 <V453000> xd 14:05:10 <V453000> yeah sure, everything easiest to provide with -thingrelated- :P 14:05:21 <V453000> ... why 4 sizes for gui? 14:05:51 <V453000> ... I just want to make gui as a whole later on, after I have the icons for everything I need :) 14:06:00 <V453000> or at least for most of the things :) 14:06:59 * DanMacK slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot 14:08:36 <planetmaker> hm, 3 sizes :) 14:08:45 <planetmaker> 1x, 2x and 4x :) 14:12:35 *** andythenorth [~Andy@194.168.185.226] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 14:13:39 <V453000> hm. 14:13:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@194.168.185.226] has joined #openttd 14:13:57 <V453000> well then I will just make them in the same postproduction thingy I do everything else in :) auto generation ftw 14:16:19 <planetmaker> we have GUI zoom and want to properly support that, don't we? :D 14:16:34 <planetmaker> not that 4x GUI zoom is in any way sane to use IMHO 14:16:50 <planetmaker> imho it would need 1.5x zoom instead. But meh... 14:16:52 <V453000> I cant say I am very amazed by that feature but sure, no problem for me to create those automatically 14:17:14 <V453000> ALSO, I just realized that creating bridge GUI is usually a side-view, soooo need to render a bridge that way XD 14:17:25 <V453000> --- which means I will probably make them already --- :P 14:17:33 <planetmaker> :D 14:18:06 <V453000> ok so 8 extra basic gui sprites 14:18:52 <V453000> 7 bridge types + 1 arrow 14:19:00 <V453000> arrow/cursor/yeti 14:19:38 <V453000> 70 sprites for suspension + concrete bridges ... 14:19:41 <V453000> that is a lot. 14:22:00 <planetmaker> bridges need an aweful lot of composition when drawn on screen: pylons + base including backside + vehicle + front side 14:22:17 <planetmaker> and then the different bridge tiles along the length all look different :) 14:30:15 <V453000> yeah that is all counted 14:33:14 <V453000> I just need to set up some sane environment for the model layout :D but the bridges are so fucking inconsistent that it isnt exactly easy 14:35:05 <V453000> btw the suspension bridge sprites seem to be very doubled 14:35:10 <V453000> e.g. 2470 and 2472 14:35:16 <V453000> what is the difference between them? 14:35:57 <V453000> hm 14:36:05 <V453000> one is at the end and one at the start of a bridge I see 14:36:42 <V453000> lets see how they are in original, in ogfx they are 100% identical 14:37:18 <V453000> ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh 14:37:23 <V453000> original has it different :> 14:38:00 <V453000> the extra duplicates are cases for the end of bridge 14:38:14 <V453000> that is nice. 14:39:01 <planetmaker> ok, so I can stop trying to find out :P 14:39:20 <V453000> yeah :D ogfx wont show it 14:39:26 <V453000> I wonder if zeph fixed that in zbase 14:39:38 *** samu [~oftc-webi@a85-139-81-208.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #openttd 14:39:40 <samu> hi 14:39:55 <V453000> he did :) 14:40:00 <V453000> so it is only ogfx 14:40:07 <samu> hmm? 14:40:41 <planetmaker> V453000, it's just a matter of how you want the bridge to look. But yeah :) 14:40:55 <V453000> yes. :) but the ends are quite important 14:40:59 <planetmaker> they are 14:41:10 <V453000> especially since this means i can make this a lot more than just the small suspension-basement detail 14:41:15 <V453000> think of the possibilitieS! :D 14:41:18 <andythenorth> hmm 14:41:25 * andythenorth puzzled still about railtypes 14:41:34 <V453000> what puzzles you andy 14:41:37 <LordAro> andythenorth: needs more roadtypes 14:41:47 <andythenorth> got a case of an engine that could be built for either narrow gauge or standard gauge 14:41:55 <andythenorth> but I have no idea if thatâs possible 14:42:05 <andythenorth> without introducing some wtf track type, and spamming the menu 14:42:15 <V453000> hm there are some details that ofx also does for some kinds 14:42:30 <andythenorth> currently I have to put the engine in twice, with different track types set 14:42:35 <andythenorth> two IDs, etc 14:42:38 <V453000> hm dont know about that :) 14:42:56 <andythenorth> railtypes are completely mystery to me 14:42:57 <V453000> I actually do 14:43:00 <samu> I have a problem, need help solving -> "These vehicle models aren't sorted in the expected order in the purchase lists." 14:43:06 <V453000> you sould be able to buy the vehicle from any compatible depot 14:43:22 <andythenorth> samu: thereâs a specific item block in nml for handling purchase sort order 14:43:27 <andythenorth> should be findable in the wiki 14:43:33 <andythenorth> common question :) 14:43:35 <samu> I discovered a Sort ... yes that 14:43:53 <samu> but how do I sort a mix? 14:44:32 <andythenorth> ? 14:44:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth, that depends on the railtypes alone: if the railtypes are deemed compatible and the vehicle powered on both: then it can be built i nthe depot of the other track type 14:45:03 <planetmaker> but that hardly sounds to be the case for standard and narrow gauge. Doesn't make sense. Thus you need to define the vehicle twice 14:45:42 <andythenorth> same answer as last time :) 14:45:46 <samu> problem is that it only sorts the vehicles I edited in relation to each other, and disregards the default untouched vehicle models 14:45:49 <andythenorth> no idea what I thought would have changed 14:45:52 <V453000> oh yeah I just realized I only do it with track type -> universal rail 14:46:19 <andythenorth> V453000: so why would anybody build anything else instead of universal rail? 14:46:24 <samu> edited vehiclews show up at the top of the list 14:46:26 <andythenorth> is it speed limited or something? 14:46:32 <V453000> visual look :) 14:46:35 <samu> not what I intended 14:46:52 <samu> wait, let me explain with a screenshot 14:46:55 <V453000> also, for example my wetrail ships reduce their stats on any other track than wetrail 14:47:03 <V453000> other vehicles dont care, they use universal tracks to full extent 14:47:13 <V453000> visual variety is nice 14:47:26 <V453000> and well, most people hate maglev so they build PURR instead 14:47:36 <V453000> well people build PURR instead of all track types but yeah :P 14:47:41 <andythenorth> so a âmixedâ railtype would solve this? 14:47:48 <V453000> idk 14:47:48 <andythenorth> but then the buy menu is full of crap 14:47:55 <andythenorth> (railtype menu) 14:48:18 <V453000> yes everything is in the purchase menu of universal rail type 14:48:26 <andythenorth> and I have no intention of drawing track 14:48:33 <andythenorth> can I disable a railtype? 14:48:39 <V453000> drawing track is easy 14:48:48 <V453000> you can even take PURR sprites as templates 14:48:52 <V453000> gets done quick 14:49:04 <andythenorth> it has craploads of sprites 14:49:10 <V453000> I dont think I define ALL sprites though - not tunnels, and bridge reserved track overlays 14:49:15 <V453000> it isnt that many really 14:49:38 <andythenorth> also then I have to redraw the other sprites in Termite, because theyâre a bit not-good 14:50:18 <V453000> render it? :P 14:50:33 <andythenorth> wonât look good 14:50:36 <andythenorth> hmm 14:50:39 <V453000> can :) 14:50:49 * andythenorth puzzled how metros work in Iron Horse 14:50:51 <andythenorth> maybe they donât 14:51:00 <V453000> xd 14:51:08 <V453000> metros are just a wtf hack 14:51:19 <samu> here it is -> https://rupavq.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2pTXX3lZtlhRvUAXmVtR0pX4vnmpmA773Q__O4IA5TdoyN_tyd5G56Oj6ba70ugXkAh5Zz19Jb1WIb0i8u7nbw-o4Kuz5aGoFw-z8jP3bYff8qff4IgYHBJ4H9ApwV22qmu0MBE05U-4zpS8INvZoofw/engine%20id%20classic%20sort.png?psid=1 14:51:37 <samu> the edited engine is dash 14:51:48 <samu> it jumped to the top of the list 14:52:10 <samu> the nml -> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ps6q2pxx0 14:52:45 * andythenorth broke openttd 14:52:49 <andythenorth> so canât check metros 14:54:41 <samu> how do I retain the original listing order? 14:55:16 <planetmaker> you have to specify it 14:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: use the "sort_order" property 14:56:54 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: "sort_order" takes another vehicle-id that this vehicle will be put in front of 14:57:26 <V453000> ok XD I am really great at meth 14:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> so if the vehicle you override has the ID 16 and is normally put infront of 17, then put "sort_order: 17" 14:57:42 <V453000> it is 234 bridge sprites, plus 8 gui. :) final number 14:57:57 <samu> ah sort order 14:58:04 <V453000> 64 bridge heads ._. 14:58:07 <samu> i was looking at Sort block instead 14:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that is better for full vehicle sets 14:59:06 <samu> ok, ty, will fix this 15:00:17 <planetmaker> "great at meth" sounds like you want a police visit at your home :P 15:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that would explain why nowadays most of the meth in germany comes from czechia. :p 15:01:38 <andythenorth> eh? So how come IH metros appear in a game without metro track? 15:01:58 <andythenorth> they are buildable in electric depots 15:02:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because you set a fallback railtype in the railtype translation table? 15:02:43 <andythenorth> I have absolutely no understanding of railtypes 15:02:58 <andythenorth> letâs start from the position that everything I have understood previously is wrong 15:03:09 <andythenorth> and stop there 15:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to understand it. just do it correctly :p 15:04:12 <andythenorth> right now, itâs better to not do it 15:04:24 <andythenorth> I have no idea what correct means here 15:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: as for your "either normal or narrow gauge" vehicle: you have to duplicate it. there is no other (sane) solution 15:04:57 <andythenorth> ok thatâs a good answer thanks 15:05:02 <andythenorth> what are the insane solutions? 15:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> we don't discuss those. 15:05:37 <andythenorth> I tend to learn by avoiding mistakes 15:06:08 <andythenorth> hmm 15:06:29 <andythenorth> on the plus side, my crappy ports manager tool has managed to provide a viable version of freetype 15:06:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the dual-gauge railtype idea could work, but that would imply that the vehicle has both sets of wheels under it at all time, or can easily be refitted (some wagons do that) 15:06:46 <andythenorth> so now ottd compiles on OS X for me without omitting freetype 15:07:05 <andythenorth> because the vehicle would seamlessly transition between types? 15:07:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 15:07:13 <andythenorth> ok letâs not do that 15:07:13 <andythenorth> thanks 15:07:21 <andythenorth> itâs not a talgo 15:07:44 <andythenorth> two IDs in that case 15:08:09 * andythenorth makes friends with deepcopy() 15:08:37 <andythenorth> OS X compile, for me at least, now needs hardly any bizarre configure flags 15:08:39 * Eddi|zuHause gets a shuddery feeling in his neck 15:09:09 <andythenorth> ./configure LDFLAGS="-stdlib=libstdc++" 15:09:11 <andythenorth> eh not bad 15:10:35 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 15:29:54 <V453000> ._. My OpenTTD 3D folder has 35GB in total 15:30:07 <V453000> models and textures for YETI/NUTS/RAWR/CATS/DOOM 15:30:08 <V453000> :d 15:41:01 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:c591:83e8:24fe:5aba] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:46:05 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:c591:83e8:24fe:5aba] has joined #openttd 15:46:41 <^Spike^> we should really let V pay per MB used on devzone... 15:46:47 <^Spike^> oh wait wrong channel... ;) 15:47:04 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@blfd-5d82284f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:47:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but hell will freeze over if MB is on devzone :p 15:49:04 <^Spike^> .... :) 15:59:34 <samu> Unknown property name: sort_order 15:59:36 <samu> gah 15:59:38 <samu> :( 15:59:42 *** LadyHawk- [~LadyHawk@5751e87a.skybroadband.com] has joined #openttd 15:59:46 *** LadyHawk [DaZeD@5751e87a.skybroadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:46 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54faa7-102.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:48 *** LadyHawk- is now known as LadyHawk 15:59:50 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw2-54faa7-102.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 16:00:27 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-170-165.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 16:00:37 <samu> Is it Item ... { ... properties {... sort_order: here ? 16:00:48 <samu> where does it belong? 16:05:06 <planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Sorting_vehicles_in_the_purchase_list 16:05:41 <andythenorth> eh 16:05:49 <andythenorth> planetmaker: which python 3 are you running? 16:05:58 * andythenorth is upgrading, and has options 16:06:03 <andythenorth> donât want to be too bleeding edge 16:06:05 <samu> that sort block doesn't work as expected 16:07:08 <samu> im editing one train engine per tileset 16:07:20 <samu> can only sort it against itself? pointless 16:07:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth, my debian has 3.2.3; jenkins on devzone has the same. At home I probably have python 3.4.x 16:07:58 <planetmaker> not sure 16:08:28 <andythenorth> alberth has 3.4 16:08:31 <andythenorth> Iâll stick there 16:08:41 <andythenorth> not knowing anything about 3.5 16:09:02 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 16:09:06 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 16:10:57 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:31 <juzza1> samu: how did you expect it to work? 16:11:39 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 16:13:22 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: you really should learn how to read syntax diagrams and stuff 16:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: then this question would be trivial to answer. 16:14:27 * andythenorth should learn that too 16:16:17 <planetmaker> samu, it's a separate block. all on its own. outside any vehicle context 16:16:31 <Alberth> hi hi 16:16:39 <samu> I'm confused 16:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: we already established that the sort block is not the right tool here. 16:18:19 <planetmaker> hi hi albert 16:18:47 <samu> i changed a property for dash, set his model life to 99 16:18:52 <Alberth> Greeting: hi [ hi [ <nickname> ] ] 16:19:11 <samu> by doing this, the purchase list jumped the dash to the top of the list, it didn't retain it's original order 16:19:17 <andythenorth> lo Alberth 16:19:23 <samu> how do i keep the original order 16:19:51 <Alberth> hi andy, that greeting doesn't fit in my syntax diagram :) 16:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: just go back and read carefully what was already written. 16:20:28 <samu> sort_order? 16:20:47 <planetmaker> samu, by using the sort block. For *all* engines. One sort block to rule them all 16:20:56 <planetmaker> and yes. Every word in the documentation matters 16:21:00 <planetmaker> well. most 16:21:28 *** roidal [~roland@cm140-210.liwest.at] has joined #openttd 16:21:31 <samu> i don't even know their names 16:21:47 <samu> how can i sort those vehicles I didn't touch 16:22:03 <planetmaker> use their IDs? 16:22:21 <samu> ok, gonna try 16:22:21 <planetmaker> though you only will be able to sort those which you touch 16:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: really i don't know why you do this. 16:23:07 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.19.137] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:17 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, do what? 16:23:18 <andythenorth> eh is python 3.4 a shitload faster than 3.3? 16:23:27 <andythenorth> FIRS compile time seems a bit reduced 16:23:47 <Alberth> oh noes, quickly go back to 3.3 :) 16:23:49 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.19.137] has joined #openttd 16:23:52 <Eddi|zuHause> "i want to eat soup with a spoon, which way around do i hold the spoon?" - "use a fork" 16:24:17 <Alberth> tbh I don't know, but yeah, python3 is known to have speed problems, so people are likely working on that 16:26:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth, from what I remember, every python >= python3.2.3 should be fine. Any earlier will not work with nmlc 16:27:21 <andythenorth> Alberth: so src/render_docs.py works for you under 3.4? o_O 16:27:24 <andythenorth> (FIRS) 16:27:46 <Alberth> it did yesterday, or should I delete some files first? 16:28:27 <andythenorth> hrm 16:28:40 <andythenorth> try a make clean, but should not be significant tbh 16:28:47 <andythenorth> same NameError for me 16:29:03 <samu> sort (FEAT_TRAINS, [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, powernaut_diesel, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, dash_diesel, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, etc...]); 16:29:06 <samu> like that? 16:29:07 <andythenorth> oh it has a shebang 16:29:15 <andythenorth> is that shebang a problem? 16:29:26 <samu> up to 115? 16:31:03 <Alberth> /usr/bin/env should be fine, python is python2 for you? 16:31:14 <andythenorth> python3.4 16:31:31 <andythenorth> removing shebang makes no difference anyway 16:32:03 <Alberth> make it "python2" ? 16:32:25 <Alberth> or some specific python2 version 16:32:45 <andythenorth> works under python 2.6.8 16:32:53 <andythenorth> but then thatâs not a python 3 conversion :D 16:33:17 <Alberth> well, almost :) 16:33:29 <andythenorth> only 0.3.2 away 16:33:32 <andythenorth> less than 1 16:33:46 <andythenorth> what is lambda anyway :P 16:33:57 <andythenorth> some way to map a function across an iterable? 16:34:09 <Alberth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pjxlpttdj 16:34:31 <samu> sort (FEAT_TRAINS, [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, powernaut_diesel, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, dash_diesel, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, turner_turbo_diesel, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98 16:34:37 <samu> doesn't fit 16:34:42 <samu> ends in 115 16:34:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: hg up snakebite 16:34:50 <samu> will that work? 16:34:56 <Alberth> use a pastebin samu 16:35:17 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:34 <samu> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pfkbm8otk 16:36:54 <samu> oh, i forgot the aircraft 16:39:02 <samu> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pfugylhnz 16:39:47 <andythenorth> hmm lambda did change 2 to 3 16:39:49 <Alberth> andythenorth: hg up snakebite ; make clean; make -j1 works https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pw8euv3hc are equivalent 16:40:27 <planetmaker> samu, you could have tried 10 times now :) 16:40:54 <andythenorth> Alberth: thanks, new error now, same issue I think, fixing 16:42:20 <andythenorth> make will work because it calls my scripts under 2.6 or 2.7 16:43:04 <andythenorth> new issue :) https://paste.openttdcoop.org/prlofnv4e 16:43:13 <andythenorth> unorderable types 16:43:16 <andythenorth> class instances 16:43:30 <Alberth> yep, they fixed that 16:44:40 <andythenorth> that function I wrote is hideous 16:44:50 <andythenorth> cargo_unique_industry_combinations() 16:44:54 <Alberth> implement __lt__(self, other) and __eq__(self, other), former should return True iff self < other, latter should return True iff self == other 16:45:29 <Alberth> (and False otherwise :p ) 16:46:26 <andythenorth> I canât understand what data structure my code builds 16:46:31 <andythenorth> but itâs probably horrible 16:49:32 <Alberth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pqa8wdwft saving a few lines 16:50:13 <andythenorth> I canât discern why I get a list of industries, then walk over it appending it to a new list 16:50:45 <andythenorth> result is the lists per economy here http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/cargos.html 16:50:50 <Alberth> it works, and it was late :) 16:50:52 <andythenorth> I think I am doing it ass-backwards 16:52:18 <Alberth> for each cargo, for each economy, get sorted source and target industries? 16:53:20 <Alberth> what's the sorting criterium for industries? 16:53:48 <Alberth> oh, self.id perhaps? 16:56:40 <Alberth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/plbaxzxsg 16:56:45 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-170-165.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:23 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18CCB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 16:58:39 <samu> it works 16:58:51 <samu> so i can use numbers after all 17:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i still think not using the sort block is better 17:01:20 <samu> is there another way to do it? 17:02:41 <Alberth> yes, don't try to force the user into your ideas 17:03:53 <samu> what does that mean? 17:03:54 <Alberth> but letting go of ideas is hard to do 17:05:50 <Alberth> systems normally have sane behavior. If you have to fight a system, it may be less wise what you want than you think 17:06:31 * andythenorth will try and rewrite this docs rendering later 17:06:38 <andythenorth> some of it looks crappy 17:06:51 <Alberth> k 17:07:14 <samu> i have no idea if you're talking to me Alberth 17:07:38 <Alberth> samu: except for the "k", I was 17:09:23 <samu> did I break the system or, I made a work around the system? erm? hmm 17:09:30 <samu> hard to understand what you say 17:10:22 <andythenorth> peter1138: found some random OS X DVDs, 10.5 and a 10.6 upgrade (newest that mac will take). Want them in the post 17:10:28 <andythenorth> free to good home, no warranty :P 17:10:29 <andythenorth> ? 17:10:44 <Alberth> samu: you added a "sort" to force the system into sorting as you see, rather than let the system decide how to handle the new engines 17:11:00 <Alberth> and the sorting has nothing to do with lengthening model life 17:12:35 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 17:13:04 <samu> ah, I see 17:13:11 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:13:46 <samu> yes, i wanted to retain the same order it had before, but if this is the only way to do it 17:13:51 <samu> then... so be it 17:14:15 <Alberth> it's hard to let go of ideas that have settled in your mind 17:14:20 <andythenorth> hrm, so just 2 functions to fix, and FIRS should work with python 3 17:14:33 <andythenorth> Alberth the solution is to have a lot of ideas 17:14:37 <andythenorth> mostly bad ones 17:14:43 <andythenorth> then you get more used to killing them 17:14:55 <andythenorth> then youâre prepared to kill even the good ones 17:15:30 <Alberth> Deriving from "(object)" isn't needed with Python3 either 17:15:57 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p5DE45413.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 17:17:38 <samu> if there's another way to do the same, please tell me 17:18:03 <andythenorth> I might try 2to3 again later 17:18:10 <andythenorth> once I have a stable point 17:18:20 <Alberth> samu: you're not reading what I say, but that's ok 17:18:39 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 17:18:50 <samu> I do, but maybe I just don't understand the whole thing 17:18:54 <samu> sorry 17:19:30 <Alberth> (18:14:15) Alberth: it's hard to let go of ideas that have settled in your mind <-- just this line 17:26:43 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p5DE45413.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:30:17 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@71-8-126-76.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:32:43 <andythenorth> huh, FIRS makefile hates me :) 17:33:03 <andythenorth> removed PYTHONPATH2 and PYTHON2 vars 17:33:11 <andythenorth> which are unused according to grep 17:33:46 <andythenorth> I should learn to grep better 17:34:05 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@71-8-126-76.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #openttd 17:34:37 <NGC3982> So, is AI in dedicated multiplayer servers a good idea? 17:35:19 <samu> yes, but it has to be a very slow AI, else it's too intrusive 17:35:46 <peter1138> andythenorth, yes please 17:36:13 <samu> some of them lag when thinking :( 17:36:44 <andythenorth> peter1138: Iâve got your address, NFI if theyâll work :) 17:36:49 <samu> some others lag because they build too many vehicles 17:36:57 <peter1138> ok, thank you 17:37:36 <andythenorth> so why does the FIRS makefile depend on python 2? 17:37:37 <andythenorth> PYTHON2 17:37:55 <andythenorth> REPO_DAYS_SINCE_2000 ?= $(shell $(PYTHON2) -c "from datetime import date; print (date(`echo "$(REPO_DATE)" | sed s/-/,/g | sed s/,0/,/g`)-date(2000,1,1)).days") 17:38:12 <NGC3982> samu: I see. 17:40:06 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18CCB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:56 <planetmaker> andythenorth, hg also depends on python2. So it's a no-op 17:41:15 <planetmaker> it's pointless to determine version in hg's absence 17:42:32 <samu> my 2nd grf http://bananas.openttd.org/en/ 17:42:38 <samu> lel, i bet no one will use them 17:44:53 <andythenorth> planetmaker: thanks 17:45:01 <andythenorth> hg not ported to python 3 yet? 17:45:03 * andythenorth looks 17:45:08 <planetmaker> no 17:45:28 <planetmaker> there are issues with handling byte streams in py3 17:45:38 <planetmaker> from what my memory serves me 17:45:45 <andythenorth> âPython 3.x has proven notoriously difficult to support, due to our pervasive dependence on a byte-based encoding strategy and string manipulation.â 17:46:01 <andythenorth> no serious plan to move 17:46:23 <planetmaker> no urgency. Though there is more than nothing. But nothing which is backward compatible 17:46:43 <planetmaker> and regressions in a VCS... that's a no-go 1st class :) 17:46:51 <andythenorth> well, Iâll leave the python 2 thing in place 17:55:50 <samu> i created a game with cargo dist + AIs + my newest grf, join me -> http://www.openttd.org/en/server/88856 17:56:24 <samu> or not 17:56:50 <Alberth> there are very few players in #openttd :) 17:57:27 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 17:57:30 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 17:58:24 <samu> is it joinable at least? 17:58:48 <planetmaker> if it's in the server list there: yes 17:59:08 <samu> what about the newgrf requirement 17:59:15 <Alberth> I can't join, don't have 1.5.0 beta-1 17:59:26 <planetmaker> :) 17:59:27 <samu> oh 17:59:43 <Alberth> if it's on bananas, the game can automatically download it for the player 18:00:13 <samu> hmm, okay 18:00:32 <samu> those downloads kinda ruin it 18:00:34 <samu> but ok 18:00:40 <Alberth> why? 18:01:03 <Alberth> it's better than having to look through the forum and find all the newgrfs that a server uses 18:02:02 <samu> AI's dont require downloads 18:02:06 <samu> but newgrfs do 18:02:22 <planetmaker> yes, but so...? 18:02:36 <planetmaker> if I can download it right from the server join lobby, I don't see an obstacle there 18:02:40 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 18:04:20 <samu> oh i got a client 18:04:22 <samu> :o 18:06:35 <samu> ah crap i didn't start the AIs on time 18:06:55 <samu> they took one of the AI slots 18:07:38 <samu> why can't the game reserve slots for AIs 18:07:49 <samu> prevent any player creating a company in those slots? 18:09:05 <Alberth> why is that a problem at all? 18:09:35 <samu> for multiplayer it is 18:09:45 <samu> but it's fine for singleplayer 18:10:08 <planetmaker> samu, there are no 'player slots' or 'ai slots'. There's only companies 18:14:51 <samu> well, then I got a slightly different approach for the problem 18:15:15 <samu> starting a multiplayer game will immediately start all AIs 18:15:23 <samu> :p 18:15:50 <samu> ignores the waiting 18:16:08 <Alberth> why is it a problem to have an AI company elsewhere in the company list? 18:17:29 <samu> they won't spawn I believe 18:17:42 <samu> I set 3 AIs 18:18:25 <samu> but I believe they only spawn in the 3 next companies created after mine, so, company 2, 3 and 4 18:18:43 <samu> unless things have changed 18:19:16 <Alberth> it hasn't changed, it has always worked, afaik 18:19:19 <samu> if someone creates company 2 before the AI, there will be only 2 AIs 18:19:54 <samu> I'm gonna wait and see what happens in this game 18:20:29 <Alberth> hmm, the problem is you don't set 3 AIs, you set 3 players 18:20:52 <Alberth> and a player can also be a human kplayer 18:20:55 <Alberth> *player 18:23:01 <raincomplex> does non-stop prevent maintenance? 18:23:09 <Alberth> no 18:23:23 <raincomplex> only assigning an explicit service order? 18:23:26 <Alberth> it means it doesn't stop at intermediate stations 18:24:08 <Alberth> or disabling breakdowns, and enabling no service if no breakdowns 18:24:16 <raincomplex> mm 18:24:52 <raincomplex> i'm having trouble hiding depots 18:25:07 <raincomplex> could it be that they're just not far enough from the mainline? 18:25:28 <raincomplex> it's on the exit-only side of a station 18:25:38 <raincomplex> and some trains are going into the station to get to the depot 18:25:44 <raincomplex> who shouldn't be 18:26:01 <raincomplex> and because the exit isn't all-directions, they then get lost... 18:26:35 <Alberth> yep :) 18:26:38 <samu> ah alberth, this is what happened 18:26:38 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 18:26:54 <samu> it pushed one slot below 4 18:27:09 <Alberth> raincomplex: I build all junctions such that a train can go in any direction it wants 18:27:15 <Alberth> hi Wolf01 18:27:24 <Wolf01> hi hi 18:27:25 <samu> but there's a problem 18:27:40 <Alberth> samu: type start_ai in the console 18:27:43 <samu> slot 5 is set to Random AI, I didn't configure it at all 18:27:56 <samu> and slot 2 is now occupied by a human player 18:28:20 <samu> it was supposed to spawn Trans 18:28:30 <samu> Trans is now gone 18:29:03 <Wolf01> uhm, I might be a lot slow typing for some time, just changed the keyboard 18:29:04 <glx> start the ai and password protect the company before anybody joins 18:30:09 *** andythenorth [~Andy@194.168.185.226] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:30:44 <samu> i mean, gone in the sense, it won't spawn 18:31:04 <samu> because a player created a company first before the AI 18:31:20 <glx> you can spawn it manually elsewhere 18:31:25 <samu> yes, manually :( 18:31:55 <samu> wish it could be automated 18:32:11 <glx> use a script to do it on server start 18:33:02 <raincomplex> i don't suppose anyone knows offhand how far away a train will look for a depot for automatic maintenance 18:33:21 <glx> not too far 18:33:35 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 18:33:40 <glx> less that 30 tiles I think 18:34:38 <raincomplex> hm 18:34:47 <raincomplex> i may have to just bite the bullet and make this junction go both ways 18:35:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a setting 18:35:06 <raincomplex> of all the solutions i've considered i think that's probably the most sane haha 18:35:16 <raincomplex> oh neat 18:35:40 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly a console-only setting 18:35:49 <raincomplex> yeah i don't see it in the adv settings dialog 18:36:19 <glx> pf settings are not in the window usually :) 18:36:26 <Alberth> there are a zillion path finder settings :) 18:37:01 <raincomplex> rail lookahead max signals? 18:37:04 <raincomplex> or is it separate 18:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> no 18:37:37 <raincomplex> max go to depot penalty 18:37:45 <raincomplex> a combination of the two? 18:38:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds more like it 18:38:28 <raincomplex> if my depots are over 10 signals away, will trains still see them if the penalty isn't above max goto depot 18:38:29 <Alberth> a signal is a penalty, how much is probably also configurable 18:38:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a reason why these settings are hidden in the console. you should not change them if you're not absolutely sure what they do 18:38:58 <raincomplex> haha, no i'm not going to change them 18:39:06 <raincomplex> i'm just wondering about using them to my advantage 18:39:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the signal lookahead has nothing to do with it, it basically says "ignore other trains beyond this point, just look at the raw tracks" 18:40:30 <raincomplex> ah 18:40:41 <Eddi|zuHause> because chances are, the trains won't be there by the time you get there 18:40:45 <raincomplex> right 18:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> imho, depot search should be changed so that it starts a new pathfinder run from the depot to the real destination, and then consider the difference to the direct route 18:44:10 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d013cb0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> this way, trains are not going to get lost as easily 18:44:48 <raincomplex> is this on an old pathfinder? http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2012/11/18/train-servicing-settings/ 18:44:54 <raincomplex> the bit about depot hiding 18:45:06 <raincomplex> because i'm doing that and my depots are still visible 18:47:03 <V453000> it is very current :) 18:47:26 *** quorzom [~quorzom@cable-78-35-98-177.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd 18:48:49 <raincomplex> hm 18:48:54 <Eddi|zuHause> raincomplex: that setup requires 90° turns to be disabled 18:49:05 <raincomplex> yeah i've got them off 18:49:18 <raincomplex> i'm getting a screenshot 18:51:11 <raincomplex> http://raincomplex.net/dump/depot.png 18:51:24 <raincomplex> so occasionally trains from the top station go to the problem depot 18:51:27 <samu> did you remove the quantum effect for road vehicles? 18:51:37 <samu> that option 18:51:39 <samu> is gone :( 18:51:46 <raincomplex> i believe it only happens if there's a space in problem depot's station 18:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: the setting is gone, because it didn't actually affect the quantum effect anyway. 18:52:35 <samu> it didn't? 18:52:42 <samu> I really liked it :( 18:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it was always enabled 18:53:11 <samu> I like to disable it, that is 18:53:17 <samu> heh 18:53:23 <planetmaker> no, you don't want that 18:53:36 <planetmaker> it'll leave you with unsolvable traffic jams 18:53:53 <samu> how? 18:54:08 <planetmaker> by not being active 18:54:28 <samu> it actually sorts it out 18:54:33 <planetmaker> exactly 18:54:34 <samu> I don't get it 18:54:41 <planetmaker> thus you want to have it active. 18:55:18 <samu> if it's active, the trucks will wait for the one that is loading to depart, jamming every other truck behind that doesn't happen to head to that station 18:55:41 <samu> I prefer when they're always moving 18:56:35 <samu> what is the other case? 18:57:39 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i5387AA99.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 18:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: that's not what the "quantum effect" is anyway. 18:58:42 <samu> what was the option that changed this behaviour? 18:58:52 <samu> I forget their names 18:59:58 <Eddi|zuHause> pf.roadveh_queue on the console 19:00:03 <samu> it would only work on loading bays 19:00:36 <samu> the other drive-through stations aren't affected by this setting 19:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if it's still in the GUI 19:00:53 <samu> it's not, :( 19:01:01 <samu> bring it back 19:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause> why would you need it in the gui, if you run a dedicated server? 19:03:24 <samu> i'm playing in the server 19:03:36 <samu> client-server or so 19:04:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's not a dedicated server? (you made it sound like that earlier) 19:04:50 <samu> i went to multiplayer start new server, entered a name and that was it 19:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause> right. that's not a dedicated server. 19:05:51 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 19:07:33 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if that is not enough information for you to change the setting, i cannot help you. 19:08:31 <samu> it's fine, but why hide some settings from the gui 19:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> because some people think there are too many settings 19:10:15 <samu> basic, advanced, expert 19:10:29 *** quorzom [~quorzom@cable-78-35-98-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:34 <samu> new category, insane 19:10:46 <raincomplex> haha 19:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> hiding from gui happens mainly for 2 reasons: 1) the setting is really dangerous, and should only be changed by people with a deep understanding of the game mechanics involved, or b) the setting is so rarely changed that it only wastes space 19:12:42 *** quorzom [~quorzom@cable-78-35-98-177.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd 19:13:16 <Eddi|zuHause> in 1) are for example most of the pathfinder tweaks, or the developer options. 19:15:12 <samu> insane category could have that warning in a big red window 19:15:20 <samu> hmm :) 19:15:44 <Eddi|zuHause> warnings in big red windows happen to be completely ineffective. 19:19:34 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 19:22:43 <samu> I know, hide this insane preset from default installations, but let us see it if we set it to be displayed via console. 19:23:57 <samu> setting I_want_to_see_the_insane_preset = on 19:24:00 <samu> :p 19:25:57 <samu> like a cheat code 19:30:43 <samu> https://blog.openttdcoop.org/files/blog/V453000/Servicing.png 19:31:22 <samu> service helicopters at helipads is a bad setting when combined with never service if breakdowns are disabled 19:32:08 <samu> when trying to replace an old model to a new model, the heli will never head to the hangar 19:32:26 <samu> or, will almost never 19:32:43 <andythenorth> hmm canât use + operator on two python sets 19:32:49 <andythenorth> makes sense I guess 19:33:54 <samu> or even when trying to renew an aged model 19:34:16 <samu> i disable the 2nd option 19:34:35 *** roidal [~roland@cm140-210.liwest.at] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1] 19:37:57 <andythenorth> Alberth: new, old. Less appalling? :) https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pwiavkdhb 19:38:14 <andythenorth> eh itâs lost a bit of sorting I guess 19:40:34 <Alberth> industry_find_industries_active_in_economy_for_cargo make 'result' a set in the first place, instead of converting at the end? 19:41:11 <andythenorth> never thought of doing that :) 19:41:55 <andythenorth> canât append to a set, must be some add method or such 19:42:02 <Alberth> yep.add 19:42:28 <andythenorth> done 19:42:51 <Alberth> I guess you want to sort accepted_by and produced_by ? 19:43:02 <andythenorth> yes 19:43:03 <andythenorth> doing it 19:43:09 <andythenorth> worryingly, I think I just understood key= 19:43:14 <Alberth> perhaps convert them to list before the condition 19:43:21 <andythenorth> it takes a function as the arg :o 19:43:26 <Alberth> :O you're becoming expert :) 19:43:30 <andythenorth> clueless 19:43:46 <andythenorth> presumably that all goes wrong if the function number of args > 1 19:43:53 <Alberth> yes, it takes a function that is called while sorting 19:44:24 <Alberth> it is assumed to return a field from the elements you give to sort 19:44:38 <Alberth> ie the field you sort on 19:44:47 <andythenorth> lucky that it does eh 19:45:17 <andythenorth> just one function left to convert hopefully 19:46:01 <Alberth> it's always amazing how few lines you need in Python :) 19:46:15 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6A74D.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:46:39 <Alberth> looking nice imho 19:52:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i usually put a lambda into key (or cmp) 19:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> cmp, if it's a little more complicated 19:56:23 <andythenorth> python 3 seems angry about the existing lambdas 19:56:32 <andythenorth> possibly the behaviour changed and they need migrated 19:58:05 <andythenorth> anyway, barring bugs, FIRS is now python 3 19:58:27 <andythenorth> maybe I should run 2to3 over it 20:00:41 <samu> competition for a titlegame 20:00:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no experience with python3 20:01:04 * andythenorth has 24 hours 20:01:07 <samu> what do we win? 20:01:24 <andythenorth> glory 20:01:29 <samu> hehe 20:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: the satisfaction of fame and glory for a year 20:02:29 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: really, the same as making a NewGRF, or a screenshot thread, or any other kind of contribution to the community 20:03:21 <andythenorth> now I need to convert Squid, Road Hog, and Iron Horse 20:03:25 <samu> i'm gonna submit tyland :) 20:03:27 <samu> toi 20:03:33 <samu> j/k 20:03:33 <andythenorth> I should write a code generator for all newgrfs 20:03:36 <andythenorth> like a framework 20:03:40 <andythenorth> highly configurable 20:03:42 <andythenorth> ugh 20:04:35 <samu> toyland submissions won't stand a chance, I bet 20:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> we had at least one in the past, it quickly fell out of the vote :p 20:05:14 <Zuu> I once submitted a game with islands that made up the version number. 1.1 I think it was. 20:05:41 <Zuu> I don't remember if it also was toyland or just wierd in that way. :-p 20:05:43 <Eddi|zuHause> at the latest point, when people see the screenshot of toyland with the original base set. 20:07:08 <Zuu> Given more heightlimits, a screen that is a large hill slope may be interesting to really convice players that there are more than 16 levels now. 20:07:52 <Zuu> Or an ocean with only small islands. Hard to combine with more hegiht limits though. :-) 20:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see long slopes working well on a relatively small title screen 20:08:56 <samu> can the background title follow a vehicle? 20:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> no 20:09:09 <samu> t.t 20:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> although that should be possible to implement 20:09:48 <samu> I would put it following a ship, going to different places to "show" stuff 20:10:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicle it would be following would always be hidden by the menu 20:10:40 <samu> move the menu around 20:10:52 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:56 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody does that... 20:11:04 <samu> oh, :( 20:11:20 *** itsatacoshop247 [~itsatacos@c-76-102-167-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 20:11:31 <Zuu> Still, even if you don't see the ship, you will get a moving tile screen. 20:11:33 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 20:12:14 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, once upon a time there was a suggestion that the title screen could have signs, and jump to the location of a different sign every X seconds 20:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that was ever implemented 20:12:54 <andythenorth> sounds awful :) 20:13:03 <andythenorth> already I have enough with the crossing bells 20:13:34 <andythenorth> I often have the title screen around for a long time when developing newgrfs 20:13:37 <andythenorth> for reasons 20:13:43 <andythenorth> âmuteâ 20:13:58 <Zuu> andythenorth: So you suggest that 'move screen' should be combined with a sound effect? :-) 20:14:08 <andythenorth> eh why not 20:14:12 <andythenorth> maybe boat horns 20:14:32 <andythenorth> I think I set a config thing once to suppress the bells, or do I misremember? 20:14:49 <Zuu> May have been a TTDP feature. 20:15:28 <raincomplex> is there a demo mode, like following random vehicles for certain amounts of time? 20:15:34 <raincomplex> i'm guessing no 20:15:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there might have been a NewGRF 20:15:45 <Zuu> not until you make it :-) 20:15:46 <andythenorth> never seen ttdp 20:15:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but NewGRFs cannot work on the main title anymore 20:20:30 <andythenorth> urgh, I broke grfcodec 20:20:41 <andythenorth> that will teach me to upgrade ports 20:21:20 <andythenorth> make: *** No rule to make target `/opt/local/include/libpng15/png.h', needed by `objs/pngsprit.o'. Stop. 20:21:31 <andythenorth> my libpng got upgraded today 20:22:01 <Alberth> make reconfigure ? 20:22:12 <Alberth> or rerun ./configure or os 20:22:14 <Alberth> *so 20:22:30 <andythenorth> no ./configure 20:22:50 <andythenorth> :) 20:22:56 <Alberth> oh, just an executable? 20:23:29 * andythenorth wonders if thereâs something src 20:24:10 <Alberth> devzone projects/grcodec 20:24:24 <andythenorth> I have that checked out 20:24:34 <andythenorth> wondering if I need a Makefile.local or something 20:25:14 <andythenorth> never upgrade ports :( 20:25:20 <planetmaker> make reconfigure; make 20:25:24 <planetmaker> that should usually work 20:25:45 <andythenorth> no target for reconfigure 20:25:58 <Alberth> libpng-config according to the make file, eg libpng-config --libs 20:26:03 <planetmaker> not after make clean. Then ./configure; make 20:26:07 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p5DE45413.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 20:26:10 <planetmaker> with whatever flags you use(d) 20:26:16 <andythenorth> there is no ./configure 20:26:55 <planetmaker> eh. *what* do you try to build? 20:27:04 *** samu [~oftc-webi@a85-139-81-208.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "never update" is not a solution 20:27:19 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: he said grfcodec 20:27:25 <planetmaker> oh 20:27:26 <andythenorth> I trade working freetype against non-compiling grfcodec 20:27:33 <andythenorth> one step forward, one step backward 20:27:57 <andythenorth> I now have libpng @1.6.16 (graphics) 20:28:09 <andythenorth> libpng15 is expected 20:28:21 <planetmaker> did you clean? 20:28:23 <andythenorth> maybe I can edit a .o file 20:28:25 <planetmaker> make clean; make 20:28:43 <andythenorth> yeah, that kills the .o files thanks 20:28:52 <andythenorth> I recall this issue last time I ran port upgrade 20:29:15 <andythenorth> maybe I should alias ./configure :P 20:31:40 <andythenorth> ho, new warnings 20:31:45 <andythenorth> libpng warning: iCCP: known incorrect sRGB profile 20:31:48 <andythenorth> bad pngs I guess 20:37:27 <raincomplex> pretty sure you can safely ignore that 20:37:37 <raincomplex> i get it all the time with PNGs output by photoshop 20:37:54 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 20:38:27 <andythenorth> these are from photoshop 20:38:30 <raincomplex> no idea if there's actually some kind of minute color skewing occurring or not 20:38:38 <andythenorth> theyâre paletted, so no 20:38:40 <raincomplex> but i haven't noticed anything obvious 20:39:01 <raincomplex> well the palette could still not come through right 20:39:04 <andythenorth> nah 20:39:06 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r27143 /extra/website/templates (footer.html header.html) (2015-02-11 20:38:59 UTC) 20:39:07 <DorpsGek> [website] -Change: New links to and logo for our server sponsor OVH in header and footer 20:39:17 <raincomplex> color is actually pretty complicated :P 20:39:19 <andythenorth> the game can only show the colours it can show :) 20:40:14 <andythenorth> actually, under 32bpp, that probably doesnât hold :( 20:40:17 * andythenorth is out of date 20:40:43 <andythenorth> whatever the new title game is, it should feature *many* crossings 20:40:47 <andythenorth> and *many* boats 20:40:51 <andythenorth> and buses leaving depots 20:49:00 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 20:49:08 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p5DE45413.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:01:01 *** samu [~oftc-webi@a85-139-81-208.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #openttd 21:01:48 <samu> hi 21:02:59 <samu> could this be done? https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=23b29f3de45f6f1f&id=23B29F3DE45F6F1F%21696&sff=1&v=3 21:04:15 <samu> that's photoshop 21:04:18 <samu> not real 21:04:29 <samu> but it's to explain something 21:10:34 <samu> does the coal subsidence disaster destroy river tiles? 21:12:40 <Alberth> I wouldn't be surprised if it did 21:16:35 <andythenorth> why is my computer slow :( 21:16:38 <samu> I had an idea for rivers that has been evolving in my mind, theoryzing how they could be improved, but it's difficult to explain 21:16:48 <andythenorth> only 100% of CPU is used :( 21:17:40 *** Suicyder [~Suicyder@86.92.59.88] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Would you like to know more?] 21:17:46 <samu> that photoshop image sums many of the ideas 21:18:13 <Zuu> including water flows upwards? 21:18:54 <samu> the river tile is "floodable" 21:19:30 <samu> it can be "destroyed" but what it actually destroys, is the water in it 21:20:10 <samu> it's like they're part of the landscape, much like desert tiles in tropic 21:20:23 <samu> you destroy them, but they come back to its original form 21:20:59 <Zuu> Sounds like a sound idea. 21:21:20 <andythenorth> hmm 21:21:29 <andythenorth> ImportError: cannot import name 'PixaColour' 21:21:36 <andythenorth> trying to run Iron Horse under python 3 21:21:41 <andythenorth> imports changed in python 3? 21:22:09 <Zuu> The part about water flooding upwards can be discussed, but flodding on the same level and that it is part of the landscape sounds good. 21:22:12 <andythenorth> module will import directly into python prompt 21:22:19 <samu> then the costs for building ship infrastructure could hopefully be drastically reduced in price 21:22:38 <samu> you build the structure, but not with water in it 21:22:44 <samu> you let the water do its job 21:22:52 <samu> it floods your infrastructure 21:22:58 *** DanMacK [~3fee8a84@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:23:04 <samu> hopefully this reduces the cost 21:23:15 <Alberth> :D 21:23:37 * andythenorth contemplates learning about imports 21:23:55 <andythenorth> oh 21:23:57 <Alberth> samu: use a basecost mod grf ? 21:24:00 <andythenorth> guess who did from pixa import * 21:24:04 <andythenorth> is that now banned? 21:24:14 <Alberth> it is? 21:24:25 <andythenorth> or maybe people just gripe about it 21:24:25 <Alberth> not just highly discouraged? 21:24:29 <samu> i don't know the whole basecost mod 21:24:38 <samu> but when it involves water, it's quite complex 21:24:45 <samu> it adds the cost of water 21:26:33 <samu> my idea is to keep the cost of the water for cleaning the infrastructure, assuming it's already flooded 21:26:52 <samu> difficult to explain 21:26:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there is probably no good reason to do "from _ import *" in most cases 21:27:14 <andythenorth> in the package __init__.py 21:27:21 <andythenorth> I have changed from pixa import * 21:27:23 <andythenorth> to from pixa.pixa import * 21:27:33 <andythenorth> which appears to work 21:27:39 <andythenorth> something to do with relative imports 21:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in __init__.py you probably want to hide internals, so only import the external interface 21:28:37 <andythenorth> explicit import declarations? 21:28:55 <Eddi|zuHause> "from _ import a,b,c,x" 21:29:22 <samu> another problem I have with the current river tiles is upon map generation 21:30:12 <samu> it's not friendly for locks 21:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the current locks are just terrible 21:30:43 <samu> if the lock is a 1x3 structure 21:30:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it has nothing to do with how rivers are generated 21:31:35 <samu> the tile where it is put could be 3x3 or 5x3, with entry and exit indicators, so to say where the next river tile will be put and where it came from 21:32:10 <samu> i must draw it 21:32:15 <samu> else it's too hard to explain 21:33:35 <samu> brb, drawing 21:33:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i had this idea of "traffic objects". which are placed like eyecandy objects, but they have a statemachine for vehicles travelling through them, like airports and bus stations 21:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> applications could be better locks, drawbridges, highways, ... 21:34:59 <Eddi|zuHause> locks that actually lock, and move the ship vertically 21:35:21 <Eddi|zuHause> more layout variations 21:35:49 <Eddi|zuHause> or ship lifts that cover higher altitudes 21:36:03 <andythenorth> funiculars 21:36:07 <andythenorth> vehicle ferries 21:36:23 <andythenorth> non-linear tunnels 21:36:33 <andythenorth> turntables and roundhouses 21:36:46 <andythenorth> truck loading bays 21:37:00 <andythenorth> clover leaf junctions 21:37:12 * andythenorth words 21:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> funiculars: probably not, that's more like another traffic type (pipes). vehicle ferries: short river ferries maybe, but not long-distance ocean ones. tunnels: unlikely. roundhouses: would need an additional depot overhaul. truck loading bays: not talking about stations here, but it's kind of on the same lines. clover leaf junctions: kinda part of "highways" 21:40:11 <Alberth> no traffic object for loading a ferry, and another one for unloading? 21:40:33 <Alberth> hmm, intermediate storage is a problem of course 21:41:08 <andythenorth> nah, just do limited-length ferries 21:41:09 <Alberth> perhaps a bit bridge-like :p 21:41:12 <andythenorth> like a bridge 21:41:28 <andythenorth> pipes 21:41:32 <andythenorth> would be a nice transport type 21:41:40 <andythenorth> being as the game is done 21:41:43 <andythenorth> at least for v1 21:41:52 <andythenorth> time for v2 21:41:59 <samu> https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=23B29F3DE45F6F1F!720&authkey=!AMW_sz3bsT2zyYk&v=3&ithint=photo%2cpng 21:43:07 <samu> so that's an example. at the points 0,-2 and 0,2 there's no water tiles, but it would indicate where the world generating would continue the river 21:43:09 <Alberth> why would nature care for lock building? 21:43:35 <samu> because no one likes ships 21:43:45 <andythenorth> what time of day is âtoo late to be converting things to python 3â? 21:43:47 <andythenorth> is it now? 21:44:05 <Alberth> :O that happens daily? 21:44:29 <Alberth> for me, it's too late for just about anything :p 21:44:36 <andythenorth> I think I hit that point 21:44:56 <Alberth> then you stop, go to sleep, try again to morrow 21:45:02 <samu> 1,0 and -1,0 would have no possibility to the river generator spawn another waterfall 21:45:03 <andythenorth> I wanted to see if Iron Horse compiles faster with py3 nml 21:45:14 <andythenorth> but I cba to put the py2 + py3 makefile stuff in 21:45:24 <andythenorth> converting seemsâŠbetterâŠbut slower 21:45:27 <andythenorth> and more wtf? 21:45:31 <Alberth> still using py2 nml? 21:45:35 <andythenorth> for Iron Horse 21:46:06 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:46:06 <andythenorth> I have to remember not to break it by over-writing it with 0.4x 21:46:09 <Alberth> build nml file, compile manually once with old nml, and once with new nml ? 21:46:39 <andythenorth> good point 21:46:59 <samu> also the tyles at 0,0, 0,1 and 0,-1 must have that shape exactly like that 21:47:01 <samu> tiles* 21:47:05 <andythenorth> also sleeping time soon 21:47:47 <samu> that's some ideas for the river generator 21:47:52 <samu> but I guess nature is nature 21:48:26 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 21:49:06 <samu> if I can't touch the way rivers are created, then... things become quite hard for the ideas I had theoryzed 21:49:41 <planetmaker> samu, Sure it can be touched. But it needs actually writing that code change 21:49:51 <andythenorth> rivers need improved 21:49:54 <andythenorth> but nobody knows how 21:51:05 <samu> if, or when rivers are indestructible and part of the landscape, much like a desert tile and grass tile 21:51:21 <samu> it would be preferable for them to spawn in a friendly way 21:51:25 <samu> for locks 21:58:12 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d013cb0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 22:01:11 <andythenorth> ho bedtime 22:01:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 22:04:06 <samu> uhm, people fleeing because of river tiles 22:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> what time of day is âtoo late to be converting things to python 3â? <-- "it's 4 o'clock *somewhere*"? 22:04:34 <samu> :) 22:04:37 <Eddi|zuHause> aw, i missed him. 22:05:05 <Diablo-D3> no 22:05:11 <Diablo-D3> its never 4 oclock 22:05:24 <Diablo-D3> time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so 22:05:36 *** JacobD88 [~Thunderbi@cpc20-stap11-2-0-cust392.12-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: JacobD88] 22:06:45 <samu> I would need something like this to check tiles, or structures: "is flooded", "is floodable", "must build on top of floodable" 22:07:31 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: i don't think you're approaching this from the right angle 22:07:41 <samu> hmm 22:09:09 <samu> rivers are already set in landscape 22:09:24 <samu> they can only be cleansed of water 22:09:37 <samu> so, "is flooded" = true/false 22:10:19 <samu> yeah, this needs thinking 22:10:47 <samu> how would you approach this 22:11:57 <samu> a lock, upon placement, would require something like needing a "is floodable" = true tile 22:12:49 <samu> but that tile could be currently dry, "is flooded" = false or true, doesnt' matter 22:13:22 <samu> ships would only walk on "is flooded" tiles 22:13:30 <samu> am i making sense? 22:13:57 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p5DE45413.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 22:14:17 <samu> if there is floodable tiles, but no water source that would actually flood those tiles, there would be no possibility to have ships in that route 22:15:09 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18CCB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 22:15:10 <samu> water will spread when in contact with "is floodable" = true 22:15:40 <samu> but a company can't build water, it needs a source 22:16:08 <samu> all the company can do is build the infrastructure, which can be flooded 22:16:27 <samu> it doesn't provide water immediately upon placement, you see what I mean? 22:16:32 <planetmaker> ah, that's what you mean 22:16:50 <planetmaker> you mean canals shouldn't be watered initially, but only when connected to water 22:16:55 <samu> yes 22:17:36 <samu> i hope this reduces the costs of building water lanes 22:17:47 <samu> but i dunno how the costs work exactly 22:18:04 <samu> if water is involved, I just don't understand the whole deal 22:18:20 <samu> just attempting to drasticaly reduce the cost of building water routes this way 22:19:23 <samu> but once you need to remove that infrastructure, and if it is currently in the state "is flooded" = true, that would cost MAJOR to clean, because it has water 22:19:48 <Zuu> If it is all about cost, then use Ctrl + Alt + C 22:19:51 <samu> upon construction = cheap, upon removing = costly 22:21:10 <samu> when building a canal tile, it's actually built in a dried state 22:21:24 <samu> if connected to a water tile, it floods 22:21:37 <samu> so, yeah, pretty much all infrastructure would become cheaper to build 22:23:01 <samu> i dont want to cheap to build water stuff 22:23:02 <samu> :p 22:23:17 <samu> cheat* 22:23:34 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 22:26:00 <samu> one other thing about river tiles which I am unsure how to deal with, is the terraforming 22:27:35 *** test-test [~oftc-webi@amx224.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 22:27:44 <samu> Ideally terraforming river tiles could become impossible 22:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i found when i dabbled in rivers, and the only sane conclusion was: don't terraform, allow rivers on any kind of tile instead. but that never happened 22:29:13 *** test-test [~oftc-webi@amx224.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [] 22:29:43 <samu> If I go back to the idea of making rivers more lock-friendly, terraforming would be better if forbidden, a compromise, which may suck, depending on the point of view 22:30:10 <Diablo-D3> man 22:30:21 <Diablo-D3> I kinda wish rivers flowed into bodies of water better 22:30:26 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: but terraforming rivers happens all the time 22:30:38 <Diablo-D3> or if you delete a river panel, it tries to reconnect by flowing around whatever you just built 22:31:03 <samu> rivers can't be destroyed if they're part of landscape 22:31:18 <samu> they can be cleared 22:31:36 <Diablo-D3> it costs me like k to delete a damned river tile 22:31:37 <samu> clear them = becomes dry, but does not really destroy the river 22:31:46 <samu> just dries it 22:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> loads of people rerouted rivers 22:32:16 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, I just kinda wish rivers could get bigger 22:32:54 <Diablo-D3> like, wider 22:32:58 <Diablo-D3> like two or three tiles wide 22:33:29 <Diablo-D3> water has like no use during competitive play 22:34:23 <samu> it's as if rivers were roads 22:34:35 <samu> kinda 22:34:46 <Diablo-D3> yeah kinda. 22:35:01 <Diablo-D3> but then rivers should like, expand on their own 22:35:08 <Diablo-D3> like how cities grow roads 22:35:10 <samu> they have two states, dried, flooded, no, they can't expand 22:35:20 <samu> you can build canals connected to them 22:35:32 <samu> canals start up as dry 22:35:42 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-170-165.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 22:35:45 <samu> they're flooded if adjacent to a source of water, in this case, a flooded river tile 22:35:47 <Diablo-D3> yeah Ive built canals before 22:35:52 <samu> my idea would be this 22:36:03 <Diablo-D3> but wait, my canals started wet 22:36:29 <samu> I know, I'm only theoryzing an idea for them 22:36:49 <Wolf01> 'night 22:36:51 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:36:54 <Diablo-D3> that'd be interesting 22:36:57 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:36:58 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, its like 22:37:02 <Diablo-D3> I want better water action 22:37:07 <Diablo-D3> and we have good grfs for it 22:37:15 <Diablo-D3> but no server uses the grfs =/ 22:37:31 <samu> you would be able to destroy your canals, it would actually remove the canal tile and the water with it 22:38:04 <samu> and would COST YOU 22:38:07 <samu> :p 22:38:09 <Diablo-D3> hrm 22:38:10 <Diablo-D3> question 22:38:15 <Diablo-D3> if I put a canal over a river 22:38:17 <Diablo-D3> does it cost k? 22:38:32 <samu> that's a aqueduct 22:39:03 <Diablo-D3> no I mean 22:39:06 <Diablo-D3> place on that tile 22:39:12 <Diablo-D3> is it the same as deleting a river? 22:39:25 <samu> the lock? that 1x3 size structure? 22:39:57 <Diablo-D3> no 22:40:01 <Diablo-D3> I mean the 1x1 canal tiles 22:40:09 <Diablo-D3> the man-made river tiles 22:40:16 <Diablo-D3> Im not sure what the game calls them 22:40:16 <samu> ah, you can 22:40:31 <samu> but a ship won't traverse them unless you build a lock afterwards 22:40:42 <Diablo-D3> ... 22:40:49 <Diablo-D3> you know, canals are useless 22:40:57 <Diablo-D3> I just realized I cant plop a dock anywhere 22:41:17 <samu> for me the current problem is the prohibitive costs 22:41:20 <Diablo-D3> I can connect two lakes/oceans/whatever 22:41:26 <Diablo-D3> but I cant spawn a lake somewhere 22:41:31 <Diablo-D3> I cant fill a dry lakebed 22:42:26 <samu> oh, you mean build a canal on top of a river tile? 22:42:39 <samu> damn sorry I misunderstood 22:43:41 <samu> for my theoryzed idea, I'd prefer to still be able to do that 22:44:17 <samu> destroying it would rever back to river tile 22:44:31 <samu> revert* 22:44:48 <Diablo-D3> yeah a canal on top of a river tile 22:44:52 <Diablo-D3> do I still pay that k cost 22:44:58 <Diablo-D3> the river deletion cost 22:45:09 <Diablo-D3> because if I don't, then I think openttd might be broken 22:45:15 <Diablo-D3> unless deleting a canal costs k 22:45:33 <samu> let me check, i dont really know exact costs 22:45:47 <Diablo-D3> I dont toy with canals, I just know river deletion is around k per tile 22:46:05 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18CCB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:15 <Diablo-D3> which sucks because competitive servers leave rivers on 22:46:22 <samu> costed me £3750 for 1x1 canal tile on a river tile 22:46:29 <samu> also 3750 to clean it 22:46:40 <samu> and it's gone forever, river tile included :( 22:47:00 <Diablo-D3> okay so what happens if you bomb a river tile 22:47:02 <Diablo-D3> how much did it cost 22:47:18 <samu> 3750 22:47:22 <Diablo-D3> _wow_ 22:47:30 <Diablo-D3> thats broken, but in the opposite direction 22:47:31 <samu> oh, 7500 22:47:33 <samu> sorry 22:47:34 <Diablo-D3> oh 22:47:38 <Diablo-D3> oh hrm 22:47:41 <samu> destroying river tile = 7500 22:47:45 <Diablo-D3> damnit still cant win 22:47:48 <samu> destroying canal = 3750 22:47:56 <Diablo-D3> building canal = 3750 too? 22:48:04 <samu> destroying canal on river tile = 3750 22:48:09 <samu> yeh 22:48:16 <Diablo-D3> 3750 + 3750 = 7500 =/ 22:48:18 <Diablo-D3> cant win 22:48:34 <Diablo-D3> I was hoping I thought of a way around paying that money 22:48:37 <Diablo-D3> oh well 22:49:36 <samu> back to my theorycrafting 22:50:00 <samu> build a canal tile = something much cheaper than 3750, maybe 375? 22:50:01 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, I just wish openttd had more of a ship game 22:50:38 <samu> destroying a canal tile = depends on if it's currently dry or with water 22:50:56 <Diablo-D3> hrm 22:51:04 <samu> if watered = 3750, if dry = something around 375 22:51:08 <Diablo-D3> samu: my problem is this 22:51:11 <Diablo-D3> I cant build a lake 22:51:14 <Diablo-D3> even if its near a river 22:55:02 <samu> near a coast? 22:55:27 <samu> grr get me a screenshot, :P 23:00:49 <samu> Eddi|zuHause: i just noticed something, rivers do not traverse desert tiles, :) 23:00:55 <samu> interesting 23:01:18 <samu> must look at arctic landscape 23:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you mean? 23:01:41 <Eddi|zuHause> tiles around rivers are turned into non-desert during map generation 23:01:48 <samu> create a new game in sub-tropic and you'll see 23:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you got that backwards :p 23:02:01 <samu> yup 23:02:15 <samu> oh, that 23:04:02 <samu> hmm arctic is non-caring if snow or not snow 23:04:09 <samu> doesn't care 23:04:20 <samu> river just goes anywhere 23:04:25 <Eddi|zuHause> rivers are placed before snow/desert is decided 23:04:45 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=6444 <--- can contain traces of irony? ;) 23:05:23 <samu> i can't german :( 23:05:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: exaggeration maybe, but not irony. 23:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it's my honest opinion that the opengfx release should be with the beta release 23:06:14 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's not like there are huge changes to be expected in the next 2 or 3 months anyway 23:07:10 <planetmaker> yes... should...yet all feedback I always get is along the lines of "sucks". Not motivating really 23:07:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know your feedback. 23:07:42 *** quorzom [~quorzom@cable-78-35-98-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:30 <planetmaker> also, this is the first year that opengfx is *not* released along with the -beta1 23:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> really? i remember loads of times where people came here with "this reports missing sprites, but there is no update" 23:09:44 <planetmaker> they do that all the time during nightlies 23:10:11 <planetmaker> and even do so because they simply didn't find the ingame update option as they only look for newgrfs 23:10:51 <Eddi|zuHause> well, sure nightly, but i specifically remember something about betas as well 23:11:27 <planetmaker> hm... maybe... hg log -r'tag()' is not entirely conclusive 23:13:30 <planetmaker> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/phloxcurg 23:14:18 <planetmaker> 2009/10/11/12 all have tags immediately before Christmas. 2013/2014 don't 23:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so, last year already had this problem and i didn't imagine it. 23:16:19 <planetmaker> it doesn't mean the problem existed... depends when new required sprites were added 23:18:07 <planetmaker> going by changelog it didn't exist in 2013/2014 23:18:15 <planetmaker> thus this *is* the first time it happens 23:18:30 <planetmaker> and those are all whiners. However they are right 23:18:40 <samu> we're in 2015 :O 23:19:27 <planetmaker> yes, for 6 weeks 23:22:41 <samu> river tiles 23:23:38 <samu> dried river tile <=> railway track 23:23:53 <samu> watered river tile <=> electrified railway track 23:25:36 <samu> oh gosh, I wish I could code something as big as this 23:27:06 <samu> Eddi|zuHause: something just crossed my mind about terraforming and rivers 23:27:58 <samu> they start at some hill or fountain kind of object 23:28:11 <samu> which doesn't exist currently 23:28:54 <samu> this object is permanently fixed 23:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the OpenTTD rivers kinda represent shipable rivers. real rivers continue along in a non-shipable way to their spring (and side streams) 23:29:24 <samu> the river that spawn from it could be "terraformable" 23:29:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so the point where the river starts is not the actual spring 23:30:38 <samu> so it starts from the ocean 23:30:43 <samu> and goes in-land 23:30:44 <samu> ? 23:32:05 <samu> what you call of real river is those level 0 23:32:11 <samu> water? the ocean 23:32:26 <samu> with coastal tiles? 23:33:05 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!] 23:33:38 <samu> I guess that's what you mean 23:34:57 <samu> to terraform rivers or not to, that is the question 23:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the game does not really have an opinion on where the river starts and ends, it just is there. it's not flowing in any direction 23:39:16 <samu> what type of sacrifices would you see as aceptable, I want to make up my mind before starting to dwelve into coding (if I could actually manage to do something at all) 23:41:12 <samu> terraforming is still the big question 23:41:58 <samu> if players are forbidden to terraform river tiles, I can come up with a feasable model 23:42:15 <samu> else, I need to think... 23:52:01 <samu> I have to leave now, see ya tomorrow. 23:52:43 *** samu [~oftc-webi@a85-139-81-208.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Page closed]