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00:00:07 <juzza1> ill try to find the exact rev when it was changed tomorrow 00:00:21 <juzza1> if it's unintentional 00:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause> afair people complained that they couldn't align 4x sprites properly 00:00:58 <Eddi|zuHause> because they jumped 4px per click instead of 1px 00:01:39 <juzza1> ok 00:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what the new behaviour is. maybe it needs further improvement 00:09:59 <samu> i can't do this, I'm overwhelmed 00:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: what did you expect? learning c++ in an hour? 00:14:00 <samu> no, of course not, reading the first part of the book and i'm already lost 00:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: it might take years before you can produce actually useful code. but you'll never be able to do that if you stop now. 00:14:32 <samu> there's a lot of stuff to have in mind before starting a project 00:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and about 99% of your projects will never become reality 00:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but that 1% will never exist if you don't try 00:17:14 <samu> gosh, I'm gonna create a word document and write down my ideas first, else I can't start 00:19:34 <samu> my mind gets stuck, i think too much, my thinking suddenly gets lost, my thinking process ... get stuck all the time, I'm always going around and around and never get anywhere 00:19:51 <samu> trying to follow my line of though 00:20:00 <samu> bah 00:21:00 <samu> and i have attention deficit 00:21:07 <samu> i'm easily distracted 00:21:51 <samu> I wanna do this, but at the same time I get stuck while trying... 00:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> tip: try smaller and smaller projects, until you find one that you can actually follow through 00:31:48 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6A1D7.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:34:00 *** pajn [~pajn@195.249.89.8] has joined #openttd 00:39:29 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:41:27 *** Flygon__ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:44:04 <raincomplex> sounds like you need to slow down a bit 00:44:50 <raincomplex> i've found that being "stuck" usually means you are having a problem and aren't seeing the problem 00:45:43 <raincomplex> very simple example, say you are drawing a train and you've got the linework but can't get past that 00:45:46 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:45:50 <raincomplex> maybe you aren't deciding what color it should be 00:46:33 <raincomplex> and instead you keep going back and fussing with the lines 00:47:37 <samu> those diagrams can help me 00:48:06 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:19:57 <samu> heading to bed, cyas tomorrow, thx for all the help and incentive words. 01:20:31 <samu> will continue this tomorrow 01:20:35 <samu> too tired now 01:21:14 *** samu [~oftc-webi@a85-139-81-208.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:53:54 *** Taede [~T@neuron.nurionis.co.uk] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 01:56:41 *** Taede [~T@neuron.nurionis.co.uk] has joined #openttd 01:59:02 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:59:43 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 02:15:49 *** quorzom [~quorzom@cable-78-35-98-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:58:15 *** Celestar1 [~Celestar@p4FD6EC66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 02:59:04 <Diablo-D3> hrm 02:59:08 <Diablo-D3> openttd needs a warning 02:59:12 <Diablo-D3> may be addictive. 03:04:11 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6EE5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:07:37 <smoke_fumus> Diablo-D3: may contain chunks of crashlanded planes 03:08:34 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 03:23:30 <Flygon__> Diablo-D3: OpenTTD is addictive for one reason 03:23:34 <Flygon__> And one reason only 03:23:52 <Flygon__> It totally followed Ragnarok Online's path in using NewGRFs to pioneer game updates 03:23:53 <Flygon__> :B 03:23:55 *** Flygon__ is now known as Flygon 03:24:08 <Diablo-D3> smoke_fumus: man I was in a 25k citybuilder game, constant plane crashing except me 03:24:17 <Flygon> (Ragnarok Online uses a semi-compressed .grf format to store all of it's games files for faster content access) 03:24:30 <Diablo-D3> Flygon: its not like modding that way is new 03:24:38 <Diablo-D3> Flygon: hell, games before doom were doing that shit 03:24:45 <Flygon> I'm not talking about modding :B 03:25:06 <Flygon> Gravity's patches basically came in form of .grf files that were merged with the master .grf file 03:34:13 <smoke_fumus> Diablo-D3: citybuilder kinda sucks 03:34:14 <Diablo-D3> Flygon: thats not new either 03:34:18 <Diablo-D3> smoke_fumus: it does and doesnt 03:34:36 <Diablo-D3> theres a few ... I dunno, bugs I guess, that allow really quick building 03:35:08 <Diablo-D3> Flygon: quake3 did updates to the base content through more paks 03:37:52 <smoke_fumus> Diablo-D3: if i want to play city builder - i'll launch sim city 4, thank you very much 03:38:25 <smoke_fumus> or cities xl 03:38:29 <smoke_fumus> or cities in motion 03:38:53 <smoke_fumus> or just released Cities: Skylines 03:38:58 <smoke_fumus> hm...i should buy that one 03:39:05 <smoke_fumus> wait, almost released. march 10 03:45:52 <Diablo-D3> smoke_fumus: lol. 03:45:58 <Diablo-D3> smoke_fumus: well its nice for multiplayer 03:46:06 <Diablo-D3> it gives the game and end goal 03:54:42 <Flygon> Diablo-D3: Yeah, but RO's the only other game I've personally see explicitly call them GRF's :P 03:56:03 <Diablo-D3> ahh 03:56:07 <Diablo-D3> well I doubt its the same format =P 03:56:13 <Diablo-D3> even quake cant keep paks straight 03:56:20 <Diablo-D3> quake1 paks and quake3 pk3s arent the same =P 03:58:11 <Flygon> Diablo: Nah, just the same file extension, terminology, and general purpose (semi-compressing a folder and file tree into a single file for faster disk access) 03:58:38 <Flygon> Tempting to see what happens if OTTD's GRF mechanism was ported to RO, RO's GRFs converted to use OTTD's method, set up a private server 03:58:52 <Flygon> And utterly brainfuck anyone that tries to disassemble the GRF with standard RO tools :B 03:58:54 <Diablo-D3> Im surprised ottd grfs arent just zips. 04:06:44 <Flygon> That's basically what RO's GRFs are 04:06:50 <Flygon> Propitary zips 04:07:03 <Diablo-D3> ahh 04:12:49 *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz 04:15:45 *** DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [] 04:38:40 *** pajn [~pajn@195.249.89.8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:06:56 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-170-165.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 05:07:39 <supermop> yo 05:46:47 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p57BD4105.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 05:49:12 <supermop> wow two eddis 05:50:00 *** Ttech [~ttech@dragons.have.mostlyincorrect.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:32 *** jonty-co1p [~jonty@borealis.jontysewell.net] has joined #openttd 05:51:15 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:52:23 *** jonty-comp [~jonty@000128f3.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:52:48 *** Cursarion [xrs@adishbestservedworldly.xrs.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:52:50 *** blathijs [matthijs@tika.stderr.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:53:05 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4105.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:53:10 *** TheIJ [~rita@188.226.187.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:53:36 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@hephaestus.untrust.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:54:22 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@hephaestus.untrust.org] has joined #openttd 05:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p57BD4105.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 05:56:16 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p57BD57F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 05:56:53 *** Cursarion [xrs@adishbestservedworldly.xrs.fi] has joined #openttd 06:02:40 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.19.137] has quit [Quit: AdiIRC - I've never heard anyone say that it's horrible. [www.adiirc.com]] 06:03:02 *** blathijs [matthijs@tika.stderr.nl] has joined #openttd 06:08:43 *** TheIJ [~rita@188.226.187.103] has joined #openttd 06:28:00 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 06:30:18 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-170-165.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:07 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 06:45:10 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 06:53:39 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:f4da:517a:7790:224a] has joined #openttd 07:10:58 *** blathijs [matthijs@tika.stderr.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:20:46 *** blathijs [matthijs@tika.stderr.nl] has joined #openttd 07:36:00 <peter1138> # Hey, hey, marry me, archie 08:16:31 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-170-165.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 08:16:38 <supermop> hello 08:18:10 <__ln__> hello supermop australis 08:18:46 *** itsatacoshop247 [~itsatacos@c-76-102-167-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:21:24 <supermop> hello __ln__ somewhere 08:44:22 <planetmaker> moin 08:53:39 *** gk [~gk@host217-42-15-105.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 09:01:49 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6A1D7.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 09:51:56 <supermop> hi planetmaker 10:35:21 * Flygon Australias all over __Ln__ 10:35:24 <Flygon> __ln__* 10:53:32 *** JacobD88 [~Thunderbi@cpc20-stap11-2-0-cust392.12-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 10:54:18 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 10:57:43 *** eQualizer|dada [~lauri@46-163-226-192.blcnet.fi] has joined #openttd 10:59:21 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: you've never seen someone randomly disconnect and reconnect before their ghost timed out? 10:59:33 *** eQualizer [~lauri@46-163-226-192.blcnet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:14:28 <V453000> FRIDAY FRIDAY 11:14:32 <V453000> fuck everything 11:14:37 <V453000> bridge time 11:14:40 <Diablo-D3> heh 11:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's friday the 13th 11:15:08 <Diablo-D3> I should start up a openttd server that is like the rest and runs citybuilder.... 11:15:13 <Diablo-D3> but the goal is a 100k city. 11:15:26 <Diablo-D3> and it starts the year that everything is available 11:15:35 <Diablo-D3> either that, or starts in the brutal past 11:15:48 <V453000> I need to get running the last piece of YETI in order to make it a true citybuilder :) 11:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you need yeti houses? 11:17:35 <Diablo-D3> veti? 11:17:40 <Diablo-D3> er yeti? 11:17:48 <V453000> not really Eddi :) 11:17:55 <Diablo-D3> what is this yeti 11:18:14 <V453000> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/yeti 11:18:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the Yeti Extremely Tedious Industries. or so :p 11:18:41 <Diablo-D3> that looks interesting 11:18:50 <Diablo-D3> but no basically I just want huger shit 11:18:58 <Diablo-D3> like enable 14x14 stations 11:19:12 <Diablo-D3> and other crazy shit 11:19:17 <V453000> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7301 concept which should allow for stuff :) 11:19:22 <V453000> 14x14 isnt that huge 11:19:34 <Diablo-D3> its huge when 7x7 just isnt cutting it for 25k =P 11:19:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it's two tiles bigger than default! 11:19:57 <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: er? 11:20:15 <V453000> Diablo-D3: well building only one station per city is pretty boring on itself :P 11:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> default station spread is 12 11:20:26 <Diablo-D3> er 11:22:24 <planetmaker> surprise, surprise. And eddi is right 11:22:34 <V453000> :) 11:23:33 <Diablo-D3> then why do servers use such small shit? 11:23:48 <planetmaker> because huge stations are easy-peasy 11:24:06 <V453000> many players abuse the station spread more than utilize it 11:24:08 <planetmaker> allowing small stations is a difficulty setting of sorts 11:26:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: so, what's stopping you from running 100k city builder? 11:26:28 *** shirish [~quassel@117.222.5.27] has joined #openttd 11:26:44 <Diablo-D3> nothing i guess 11:27:49 <V453000> XD 11:27:54 *** gk [~gk@host217-42-15-105.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:28:01 <V453000> the problems are real 11:30:55 <Diablo-D3> I dunno 11:31:07 <Diablo-D3> last time I started a server no one ever joined 11:32:34 <planetmaker> a server running only very occasionally is not very attractive to the occasional player. They prefer to join servers which are there regularily and which they can rely on to provide the experience they expect 11:32:47 <planetmaker> and each server offers a different experience. 11:32:56 *** shirish_ [~quassel@117.195.112.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, either you have a few friends that you agree on to join the server at the same time, or you have a regularly scheduled time for random people to rely on 11:38:10 <Eddi|zuHause> part of the reason why city builder servers are popular is that they start over every few hours 11:38:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so whenever you have time, you can join a fresh game 11:38:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and when you can't, it doesn't matter 11:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so, if you define something like "server runs every day from 18:00 CET to 0:00 CET" [that is probably the user peak hours, ca. 30 years of game time] 11:40:31 *** shirish_ [~quassel@117.222.2.249] has joined #openttd 11:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> you might have more success 11:46:30 *** shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:54:25 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@71-8-126-76.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:56:25 *** glevans2 [~glevans2@71-8-126-76.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #openttd 11:59:34 *** Romazoon [~oftc-webi@233.177.106.92.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined #openttd 11:59:55 <Romazoon> Hi all, 12:01:19 <V453000> hy 12:01:23 <V453000> , 12:01:25 <Romazoon> i wanted to know waht you guys think of the avalaible feature to update newgrf. i think it s nice, but it should also allow to update just a single newgrf and not the full list 12:01:41 <V453000> it does allow that I thought? 12:02:16 <Romazoon> how ? i tried highlighting just one newgrf and click on update newgrf, but it does update the all list not just the highlighted one 12:02:24 <V453000> hm 12:03:04 <V453000> guess not then :) 12:03:21 <V453000> idk, but doing it manually is just one step aside :P 12:03:29 <V453000> ah not in the preset though 12:03:32 <V453000> 2 clicks there 12:03:38 <V453000> hm 12:03:41 <Romazoon> yes that s how i do it ;) 12:03:41 <V453000> rawr though :) 12:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Romazoon: so how often do you think people want to keep an unupdated NewGRF, when they have the upgrade available? 12:05:11 <Romazoon> hmm, as often as the upgrade break compatibility 12:05:12 <V453000> ^ that 12:05:16 <supermop> night 12:05:18 <V453000> you usually want to at least try it 12:05:23 <V453000> change back eventually 12:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't want it, just delete the NewGRF 12:05:36 <V453000> compatibility .. with old savegames? 12:05:56 <Romazoon> some upgrade of newgrf are uncompatible with their oldervesion 12:06:04 <Romazoon> Fish 12:06:09 <Romazoon> as exemple 12:06:18 <Romazoon> that became Squid 12:06:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it should probably check that if done in a savegame... 12:06:51 <planetmaker> eh, you do not update the used newgrfs of a savegame anyway... 12:06:51 <V453000> oh you can also update stuff in a savegame? :0 12:06:55 <planetmaker> no 12:07:04 <V453000> I would have been surprised :D 12:07:06 <planetmaker> unless you want to break stuff and accepted to know what you do 12:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> outside the savegame, what does it matter? 12:07:14 <planetmaker> but that doesn't need an extra button 12:07:26 <planetmaker> and outside, indeed, breaking compatibility doesn't matter 12:07:49 <Romazoon> ok you guys have make a valid point 12:08:11 <Romazoon> *have made 12:08:28 <planetmaker> yeah. updating the preset doesn't mean that any file is deleted or that your saves will start using the new versions 12:08:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there's still a difference between making a supposedly working update (according to compatible version), vs. a known broken update 12:09:03 <Romazoon> yes i totally love that feature for my preset.... 12:09:05 *** eQualizer [~lauri@46-163-226-192.blcnet.fi] has joined #openttd 12:09:05 <planetmaker> I don't understand what you try to say, Eddi|zuHause 12:09:18 <Romazoon> but i just keep using nightlies of newgrfs...with update regularly 12:10:01 <planetmaker> that doesn't change anything of what was said 12:10:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: let's suppose i use two GRFs in a savegame, and i downloaded an update for both of them. grf A is marked compatible with its older version, and grf B is marked incompatible (by the author of the GRF) 12:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: now i want to update the grfs in the savegame 12:10:19 <planetmaker> unless *you* overwrite existing files, Romazoon. But that's nothing OpenTTD would do 12:10:51 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, don't update grfs in a savegame. You know what you do, when you do. That's the deal 12:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it should allow changing the compatible, but disallow changing the incompatible 12:11:01 *** eQualizer|dada [~lauri@46-163-226-192.blcnet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's not about "knowing what you do" 12:11:18 <Romazoon> Exactly what eddi said 12:13:04 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the premise is already that you "know what you do", because you enabled changing of NewGRFs ingame. 12:13:21 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-170-165.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:13:21 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but the game should still use this data of known compatible/incompatible that the author put in 12:13:25 <planetmaker> often the compatibility is only a claimed compatibility, I recon. Mistakes happen. And easily 12:13:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that's also besides the point 12:13:48 <planetmaker> it is indeed 12:13:59 <Romazoon> well i don t pretend to know what i do ;) i mess things up often... i try not to report when it s obvious it s my mistake that s it ;) 12:14:39 <planetmaker> in that case it's about newgrf authors knowing what they do. They often don't when it comes to indicating compatibility to earlier versions 12:14:45 <Romazoon> thanks Eddi for finding the right words for me ! 12:14:45 <planetmaker> and I cannot even blame them 12:15:09 <planetmaker> it's extremely easy to introduce small incmpatible updates 12:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you still miss the point 12:15:30 <planetmaker> anyhow, assuming that's not an issue, one cannot update compatibly marked newgrfs in a savegame. 12:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> under the premise that EVERYONE knows what they do, and ALL THE DATA is correct. the "upgrade" button should change compatible versions, and disregard incompatible ones 12:16:27 <Romazoon> or let the player choose the ones he wants to upgrade (since he know what he s doing) 12:16:27 <Eddi|zuHause> if used inside a savegame 12:16:29 <planetmaker> yes. But there's no such functionality currently anywhere for savegames 12:17:01 <planetmaker> Romazoon, no, we do not allow that unless you are a newgrf or scenario developer. Only those know what they do (by indicating they are a developer) 12:17:28 <Romazoon> I am both 12:19:01 <Romazoon> anyway, thanks for your answer, i wanted to hear your opinion before making a new flyspray suggestion 12:19:13 <Romazoon> and i see it s not necessary to make one 12:19:39 <Romazoon> i will update manually when i really need to, and fully enjoy the "uppgrade" for my preset list 12:19:40 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> yes. But there's no such functionality currently anywhere for savegames <-- then the question is, why? all the data is there. use it. 12:19:54 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, because simply no-one wrote that patch yet 12:20:35 <planetmaker> yes, all data is there. And it could be used. At least for people who are scenario_ or newgrf_developer 12:21:30 <planetmaker> Romazoon, you heard about one opinion. Mine is neither official nor representative 12:22:23 <planetmaker> And the main point is: no-one wrote what you asked. So far I only described the is- state 12:23:14 <Romazoon> i know, but i totally get your point in a way, i m asking for a feature that only "very" advanced player should use, i m not able to develop that patch, and there is a work around solution existing so why bother with it and bring more complexity to the ui 12:23:42 <planetmaker> because at least two people would like it? 12:23:56 <planetmaker> and I don't see much complexity in the UI. The current buttons would do 12:24:11 <Romazoon> well that was also the point of me showing off in here and suggest it ;) 12:25:45 <Romazoon> now the idea is in the air at least, not just in my mind (and Eddi's mind wich maybe also wanted that before) 12:26:29 <Romazoon> while i m here, i have a question regarding opcodes... 12:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i probably want something different from you... 12:28:52 <Romazoon> what can i expect from putting more opcode than the "original" preset of 10K opcode ? 12:29:39 <Romazoon> would it allow Ai to deal with bigger maps and more vehicles ? 12:31:10 <planetmaker> it's a setting to tune speed of ai and scripts 12:32:53 <Romazoon> so i presume for a larger map i would probably want to set that up ? 12:33:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that may help, but it may also just clog your CPU 12:33:22 <Romazoon> i experience often on large maps that AI are lazy 12:33:46 <planetmaker> humans are similarily lazy in comparison to map size 12:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, AIs have often not good heuristics in dealing with large amounts of data 12:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so they spend ages analyzing the map, while not doing anything 12:34:31 <planetmaker> but yes, AI handle it worse. They are not taught to ignore most of the map and just getting started on a small part 12:34:39 <Eddi|zuHause> they too often try to find "the best" solution, instead of going what's "good enough" 12:34:54 <Romazoon> clog my CPU is not what i m looking for ( i m able to do it alone ;) don t need help from AI.) 12:35:04 <planetmaker> Which reminds me: it would be awesome to have a regular AI competition with some more visbility 12:35:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that's also why two of the same AI personality get in each others way, not accomplishing anything 12:35:10 <planetmaker> AI development seems mostly stalled 12:35:22 <Flygon> What if I told you 12:35:27 <Flygon> I was actually a robot 12:35:36 <Flygon> And I am an AI 12:35:38 <planetmaker> direct order: start competition now :P 12:35:38 <V453000> robots dont have bad ideas 12:35:43 <Romazoon> oh Eddi ! really ?? so that s i guess the problem i encounter with my "multiple Civil Ai".... 12:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Romazoon: probably. AIs think too deterministicly, so they always try the same routes that the other one did already 12:37:20 *** shirish [~quassel@117.195.100.39] has joined #openttd 12:38:04 <planetmaker> Romazoon, if you play with AI it usually is a good idea to try a different one for each AI company you want 12:39:37 <Romazoon> thanks guys for the answers, make things more clear now :) 12:40:55 <Romazoon> planetmaker : i do use AI only for "eyecandy" purpose, not looking for competition, and i liked the way civil AI built roads, so running multiple of them usually create a nice road network without effort 12:41:23 <Romazoon> but i understand the problem now 12:43:11 *** shirish_ [~quassel@117.222.2.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:43:47 <Romazoon> thanks again guys for all your answer, this community rocks. got to go now bye 12:44:04 *** Romazoon [~oftc-webi@233.177.106.92.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44:18 *** andythenorth [~Andy@194.168.185.226] has joined #openttd 12:44:27 <andythenorth> peter1138: you didnât change address since October, right? 12:45:40 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd 12:46:04 * andythenorth also has a _shitload_ of 512MB, 1GB and 2GB SODIMMs (laptops), mostly DDR3 by the looks of it 12:46:18 <andythenorth> if anybody wants, will post some, no warranty :D 12:46:29 <SpComb> melt them for gold 12:49:27 *** shirish_ [~quassel@117.195.118.10] has joined #openttd 12:54:04 <Diablo-D3> heh 12:54:07 <Diablo-D3> sell em on ebay 12:54:37 <andythenorth> they have -ve value 12:55:03 <andythenorth> the listing fee probably outweighs the sell price 12:55:16 <andythenorth> and the work to list them :P 12:55:41 *** shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:55:47 <peter1138> andythenorth, nope 12:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i always thought that ebay fees were a % of the selling price 12:56:01 <andythenorth> plausible :) 12:56:17 <andythenorth> years since I ebayed anything, loads of work to do it 12:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause> or alternatively a % of the initial price 13:14:06 *** andythenorth [~Andy@194.168.185.226] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 13:29:14 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-69-180.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 13:33:21 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:26:09 *** andythenorth [~Andy@194.168.185.226] has joined #openttd 14:31:40 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #openttd 14:34:50 *** roidal [~roland@62-46-138-239.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd 14:35:19 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 14:37:29 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 14:43:10 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:53:14 *** roidal [~roland@62-46-138-239.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1] 14:53:59 *** roidal [~roland@62-46-138-239.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd 14:54:53 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 14:57:13 *** DanMacK [~3fee8a84@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 15:10:16 *** Celestar1 [~Celestar@p4FD6EC66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:11:11 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6EC66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:14:58 *** Romazoon [~oftc-webi@233.177.106.92.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined #openttd 15:25:43 <Romazoon> i m about to start a small AI competition/test. any advice? any AI maker here that wants his product tested ? I m thinking to do that on a (not dedicated) server with 1.5 beta and common newgrfs,, so if someone is interested to watch it should be possible. 15:28:46 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6EC66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:31:17 *** samu [~oftc-webi@a85-139-81-208.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #openttd 15:32:14 <samu> hi, what happened to Morloth, NoCab creator? 15:32:22 <samu> is he still around? 15:33:07 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6EC66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:34:09 <samu> there is some nasty problem with ships for this AI 15:34:55 <samu> it slows down the game, he got 200+ ships blocked in a route he created himself, and instead of giving up, he keeps adding more and more 15:35:13 <samu> slowing down the whole game more and more 15:35:56 <samu> watch it > http://www.twitch.tv/xarickpreto 15:36:08 *** Celestar1 [~Celestar@p4FD6EC66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:41:10 *** Celestar2 [~Celestar@p5B227242.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:41:11 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6EC66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:42:19 *** Celestar [~Celestar@ip-109-43-1-207.web.vodafone.de] has joined #openttd 15:46:31 *** Keen [~Sedo@95.91.251.137] has joined #openttd 15:47:11 *** Celestar1 [~Celestar@p4FD6EC66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:48:58 <Keen> Hi everyone, I have a question: I was playing on reddit Server 1 some hours ago and at one point my company just vanished and my aircrafts went over to a competitor. How? I had set a password. I was in negative balance at the time (maybe that matters?) 15:49:16 *** Celestar2 [~Celestar@p5B227242.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:54:05 <samu> yes 15:54:34 <samu> negative balance: you were being an offer for buyout to other companies 15:55:23 <Keen> oh shiet ok. so, basically, never be in the red? 15:55:45 <samu> yes, try to avoid it for prolongued time 15:55:57 <Keen> I was just confused because there was no message no nothing, everything just vanished 15:56:23 <samu> it should come up in the newspaper, about the merging 15:56:50 <Keen> I deactivated some news messages, maybe that is why I didnt see it 16:10:16 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 16:10:19 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 16:22:36 <Keen> Is this game played competitively? If yes, are there VODs available? 16:23:46 <Alberth> some people play it that way 16:23:53 <Alberth> no idea what VODs are 16:24:02 <Keen> Videos, replays 16:24:12 <Keen> VOD = video on demand 16:24:40 <samu> http://www.twitch.tv/xarickpreto 16:24:40 <Alberth> never seen any, but then again, I don't play competitvely 16:24:42 <samu> keks 16:24:52 <samu> i think nop 16:25:09 <Alberth> you should have a look at the various game servers that exist 16:25:19 <Keen> yay twitch! :p 16:25:29 <Alberth> http://www.openttd.org/en/servers 16:25:44 <samu> there's competitive servers, they maintain highscores, and stuff, but so far I don't know of any who makes vods 16:25:51 <Keen> yeah spectating is one thing, but watching somebody play, maybe even with voice is more insightful 16:26:11 <samu> games tend to last hours 16:27:08 *** shirish [~quassel@117.222.0.105] has joined #openttd 16:27:13 <Keen> One does not simply become the mightiest landline in half an hour 16:27:22 <Romazoon> i think you can find replay of the BTproserver on youtube 16:28:44 <Romazoon> i think they compete for the fastest growed town (first one to reach the objective) 16:28:52 <Keen> "OpenTTD CityBuilder 4000 on BTPro server 13 [3/3]" something like that? 16:29:13 <Alberth> yeah, city building is the newest form 16:30:00 <samu> not really an engaging player versus player 16:30:28 <samu> but 16:30:50 <samu> if you're actually the player, it can be thrilling 16:31:00 <samu> if you're spectating... meh, not so much 16:31:32 *** shirish__ [~quassel@117.222.1.66] has joined #openttd 16:33:11 *** shirish_ [~quassel@117.195.118.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:33:50 <Keen> I like to watch competitve players play in other games. You can learn so fast doing that. 16:34:20 <Keen> especially when they comment themselves or somebody who knows what their thought process is 16:36:41 *** shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:37:03 <samu> there's no one on my game, I'm gonna close NoCAB AI 16:37:12 <samu> no one will notice 16:37:13 <samu> :p 16:39:23 <samu> much faster now 16:40:36 <samu> woah my server is not listed 16:40:42 <samu> http://www.openttd.org/en/servers 16:40:45 *** andythenorth [~Andy@194.168.185.226] has left #openttd [] 16:40:48 <samu> sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't 16:41:36 <samu> i hate dynamic ips 16:45:14 <samu> local address 192.168.1.3 16:45:23 <samu> bah, i have the port forward on 192.168.1.2 16:49:38 *** quorzom [~quorzom@cable-78-35-98-177.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd 16:56:31 <NGC3982> samu: Do you need help? 16:56:53 <samu> my modem/router is so confusing to configure 16:56:57 <samu> grr 16:59:17 <samu> restarting this... 17:00:20 *** samu [~oftc-webi@a85-139-81-208.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:41 *** Celestar1 [~Celestar@p4FD6EC66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 17:17:46 *** Celestar [~Celestar@ip-109-43-1-207.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:31 *** Celestar [~Celestar@ip-109-43-1-207.web.vodafone.de] has joined #openttd 17:25:46 *** Celestar1 [~Celestar@p4FD6EC66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:31:16 *** Keen [~Sedo@95.91.251.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:33:25 *** samu [~oftc-webi@a85-139-81-208.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #openttd 17:33:33 <samu> I need help, can you try join this game? http://www.openttd.org/en/server/88856 17:33:54 <samu> got several openttd's open and hosting, i wonder which one will you get in 17:34:01 <NGC3982> Syre. 17:34:03 <NGC3982> Sure.* 17:34:03 <samu> no idea what's going on with these servers 17:34:56 <NGC3982> Uh, 1.5.0-beta1. 17:35:00 * NGC3982 downloads. 17:35:05 <samu> oh, sorry 17:35:28 <samu> i can't join my own server on my near computer 17:35:37 <NGC3982> :-) 17:35:48 <NGC3982> Why are you running the testing version on a dedicated server? 17:36:10 <samu> not a dedicated server 17:36:17 <NGC3982> Oh. 17:36:38 <samu> this thing gets messed up with several OpenTTD's open at the same time, I don't know why 17:39:15 <samu> 85.139.81.208:3979 17:39:21 <samu> server offline, i dont get it 17:39:38 <samu> it's here http://www.openttd.org/en/server/88856 17:39:43 <samu> and i can't join my own server? 17:40:01 <NGC3982> I can join your server. 17:40:11 <samu> i noticed 17:40:41 <samu> i closed one of openttds, the one where you didn't show 17:40:45 <NGC3982> I do not think you can join your own server by connecting with external non-NAT address. 17:40:54 <NGC3982> If that is your issue. 17:41:26 <samu> funny 17:41:30 <samu> the game is gone 17:41:51 <samu> http://www.openttd.org/en/server/88856 - Online? No... 17:43:03 <samu> openttd #1 - where you did show up 17:43:17 <NGC3982> That server is online. 17:43:23 <samu> openttd #2 - you did not show up here, I closed it 17:43:32 <samu> and now openttd #1 is now offlin 17:43:35 <NGC3982> Oh, you have two servers? 17:43:36 <samu> i just dont get it 17:44:44 <samu> that link shows openttd #1 17:44:59 <samu> I closed openttd #2 and it made openttd #1 server go offline 17:45:02 <samu> why? 17:45:30 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27145 trunk/src/lang/malay.txt (2015-02-13 17:45:22 UTC) 17:45:31 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:32 <DorpsGek> malay - 11 changes by TheITChap 17:45:33 <samu> if i start openttd #2 server again, you are re-directed to openttd #1, and it shows on the list 17:45:56 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:46:14 <samu> any ideas what could be wrong here? 17:47:01 <Alberth> they both use the same port? 17:47:08 <samu> yes 17:47:24 <Alberth> that's what is wrong then 17:47:51 <samu> how can i even configure that 17:48:00 <samu> i can only chose 1 port 17:48:09 <Alberth> openttd has an option to set the port 17:48:18 <Alberth> (I think) 17:49:11 <samu> there is only one openttd.cfg file 17:49:27 <samu> i run the same openttd instance from the same folder multiple times 17:50:04 <samu> multiple openttd's, one openttd.cfg 17:50:08 <Alberth> sounds quite wrong too :) 17:50:38 <Alberth> with option, I mean a command-line option, not an openttd.cfg option 17:50:40 *** TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 17:51:02 <Alberth> it's still wrong though, as you probably don't want to share passwords etc 17:51:17 <samu> it's not a dedicated server 17:51:25 <samu> no passwords 17:52:08 <Alberth> oh joy 17:52:53 <samu> i only intend to have 1 server running 17:53:14 <samu> all the other openttds are for single player testing stuff 17:53:31 <samu> scenario editor, my usual test 17:54:03 <samu> currently I must start two servers to make it work... that's so strange 17:54:46 <samu> 3979 is the port 17:54:54 <samu> brb 17:56:11 <samu> deleting windows firewall entries related to openttd 17:56:16 <samu> it will re-create them on next run 17:58:07 <samu> online: yes 17:58:19 <samu> hmm now let me start a 2nd openttd 17:58:59 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 17:59:02 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 17:59:41 <samu> can't join my own server with openttd 2, not listed 17:59:52 <samu> i used to be able to do this 18:00:08 <samu> not listed in game, but listed in the website 18:01:45 <glx> probably your router 18:01:59 <samu> it becomes listed when i change advertised to no 18:02:28 <samu> confused, it's working in some unintended way 18:02:44 <samu> the game is advertised 18:05:12 <samu> well, i can join it, that's all it matters, but it's strange that i have to list non-advertised games 18:06:44 <samu> server addres 192.168.1.3:3979 18:06:51 <samu> meh... it's not picking up the internet address 18:06:57 <samu> that's the LAN address 18:13:31 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd 18:16:36 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:18:26 <samu> yay, desert tiles have an interesting property 18:19:06 <samu> if I level all the terrain to level 0 18:19:18 <samu> covering all of it in water, then level it back to 1 18:19:34 <samu> the desert tiles will re-emerge exactly where they were before 18:20:14 <samu> it's something like this that I need for river tiles 18:21:55 <samu> nice to know that this behaviour is already implemented in the game 18:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a pig in my minecart and it won't come out... 18:26:46 <samu> woah, no matter what level, the desert tiles will always spawn in the same (x, y) coordinates 18:26:49 *** JacobD88 [~Thunderbi@cpc20-stap11-2-0-cust392.12-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: JacobD88] 18:27:02 <samu> yay, this is such a welcome feature 18:29:01 <samu> I need this for the terraforming river tiles, it will be usefull to maintain river tiles exactly where they were 18:29:13 <samu> no matter the height 18:34:44 *** Keen [~Sedo@2a02:810b:340:3648:18c1:99d6:fca5:aa17] has joined #openttd 18:35:29 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: and you can't hit it withou breaking the minecart 18:36:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i was hoping i could wave a carrot and it would get out and join my other pigs in the farm... haven't tried hitting it yet 18:46:22 *** Defaultti [defaultti@lakka.kapsi.fi] has quit [Quit: Quitting.] 18:47:30 *** Defaultti [defaultti@lakka.kapsi.fi] has joined #openttd 18:55:39 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Just push the cart off a cliff ;D 18:57:59 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 18:58:03 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18423.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 18:58:04 <Eddi|zuHause> what would that accomplish? 18:59:33 <andythenorth> o/ 18:59:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: just set fire to everything 18:59:59 <andythenorth> with dynamite 19:00:06 *** shirish__ [~quassel@117.222.1.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:00:16 * andythenorth has concluded that MC is most enjoyable for 7 year olds 19:02:00 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-5f747cf0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 19:04:31 <Alberth> o/ 19:05:38 <andythenorth> quak 19:05:39 <andythenorth> etc 19:06:23 <frosch123> hola 19:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you're telling me to not enjoy minecraft? 19:10:00 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.38.183] has joined #openttd 19:10:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the funniest feature of minecraft i have seen so far is swimming up waterfalls :p 19:10:41 <Wolf01> hi hi 19:11:23 *** shirish [~quassel@117.195.96.3] has joined #openttd 19:12:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: not telling you anything :) 19:23:21 <Alberth> moin 19:37:45 <samu> basecosts 19:38:24 <Eddi|zuHause> cucumbers 19:38:48 <samu> question, i know there is a basecosts newgrf, but in the original OpenTTD, why do canals, aqueducts and locks have such high costs in them? 19:38:52 <Alberth> broke 19:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: somebody thought they should. 19:39:41 <samu> are they dependent of water costs? 19:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: for the most part, prices in this game are completely arbitrary 19:39:44 <samu> tied? 19:40:08 <Alberth> no simple way to move smoke of an engine, it seems 19:40:49 <samu> if i want to reduce aqueduct cost, without affecting the cost of clearing water, I just cant? 19:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i think there was a property where the smoke should emerge (along the engine's travelling direction 19:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: plus there is the new effects callback 19:41:30 <Alberth> yeah, just want to move the smoke to the chimney, instead of before it :) 19:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "Visual effects and wagon power (22) By default, the visual effect of train engines is determined by the traction type (property 19). With this option you can change the type of effect as well as the position of it relative to the vehicle." 19:44:11 <Eddi|zuHause> nml probably has that encoded in some macro thingie 19:44:25 <Alberth> hmm, I am pretty sure andy used it, and he doesn't do nfo :) 19:44:43 <Alberth> let's see what fishes do 19:46:00 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C321F.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 19:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "visual_effect_and_powered (VISUAL_EFFECT_XXX, offset, ENABLE_WAGON_POWER or DISABLE_WAGON_POWER)" 19:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "An offset of 0 is default, negative values mean more to the front and positive values are backwards. Minimum offset is -8, maximum is 7." 19:47:49 <Alberth> totally missed that, and it's in the middle of the page! thanks 19:47:53 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 19:48:28 <frosch123> Alberth: i think the smoke position is often wrong for some directions 19:48:42 <frosch123> either the alignment of the smoke-sprite is not centered to the spawning point 19:48:59 <frosch123> or the vehicles do not have the chimney in the same position for all orientations 19:49:13 <frosch123> of course the stretching does not make it easier :) 19:49:25 <Alberth> make longer smoke :p 19:49:34 <frosch123> but if you want to commit to it, there is a callback to allow positioning depending on vehicle orientation :) 19:49:35 *** Plaete [~moffi@dsdf-5f7674bf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 19:49:42 <samu> question, who came up with these prices for aqueducts? they're so prohibitive! there must be a reason for this to be the base price 19:50:10 <Alberth> samu: water is supposed to be an obstacle 19:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: like i said. someone pulled a number out of his arse. and that became the price. 19:51:08 <samu> hmm 19:51:09 <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/px1iu8hht?/px1iu8hht <- ugly, but works 19:51:14 <frosch123> no idea how to make it nicer 19:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: are you sure the toolbar is always initialized before the statusbar? 19:53:07 <samu> I must have misconcepted something 19:53:14 <samu> misunderstood 19:53:36 <NGC3982> Are you sure you have not underconcepted it? 19:53:46 <samu> the base price of aqueduct has nothing to do with the base price of wate? 19:53:58 <samu> it's totally independent of each other 19:54:00 <samu> ? 19:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> samu: there are probably two base costs, one for clearing and one for building 19:54:42 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, ShowVitalWindows 19:55:00 <samu> so, I see 19:55:13 <samu> darn... you just ruined my day 19:55:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i resend that 19:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> resent? 19:56:19 <samu> the prohibitive costs have a solution apparently 19:56:45 <samu> just reduce their base cost, no side effects will happen 19:56:54 <samu> no extra work, no brainstorming of ideas 19:56:57 <samu> I just misconcepted it 19:57:44 <samu> i feel so ashamed now 20:00:06 <Alberth> frosch123: quite ugly indeed :) shouldn't it do some 'max' ? 20:00:19 <frosch123> where? 20:05:31 *** jonty-co1p is now known as jonty-comp 20:06:16 <Alberth> you're changing the window description, hmm, make a constant that is used at both places? 20:06:17 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 20:06:22 <Alberth> hi hi andy 20:07:56 <Alberth> and both descriptions have 640 20:09:06 <frosch123> the toolbar did it like that also before 20:09:11 <frosch123> no idea why 20:09:51 <samu> suggestion, come up with better prices for ship routes 20:09:56 <samu> seriously 20:10:54 <samu> it's ok that they're expensive in relation to roads, rails, but the way it currently is, is just way... over the top 20:11:15 <frosch123> i could try moving it to OnInitialPosition 20:11:34 <samu> especially the aqueduct 20:12:01 <samu> that thing brings down 10 years of money accumulation instantly 20:12:02 <Alberth> main toolbar is around 700 pixels here 20:12:49 <frosch123> main toolbar sizes according to icon size 20:12:52 <frosch123> the 640 means nothing 20:12:53 <Alberth> samu: use the already available sea instead 20:13:49 <samu> why so much aversion to lowering prices? 20:13:58 <Alberth> frosch123: but you're copying default width, ie 640 20:14:07 <frosch123> or i can make InitializePositionSize virtual, and put it there 20:14:15 <Alberth> samu: that's why there are basecost grfs 20:14:31 <frosch123> Alberth: w->window_desc->default_width = nbuttons * this->smallest_x; 20:14:44 <frosch123> default_width is not used, you can set it to 0 20:14:50 <frosch123> probably i should do that, do avoid confusion 20:15:04 <Alberth> or add a comment :) 20:15:49 <Alberth> I can live with the current solution 20:16:27 <Alberth> virtual InitializeSizePosition has problems with getting the size of both windows? 20:17:24 <samu> I don't understand the logic 20:17:29 <frosch123> the toolbar is always available when the statusbar is 20:17:37 <frosch123> the problem is resizing the window 20:17:44 <frosch123> where to define its size 20:17:58 <frosch123> InitializePositionSize seems to be the place, if not using default_width 20:18:18 <Alberth> I agree 20:18:26 <Alberth> perhaps that's a better place 20:20:38 <samu> buoys are cheap, ship depots are cheap, docks are cheap, then suddenly canals and all the new added structures are overly expensive, don't really get why 20:20:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:21:26 *** Tirili [~chatzilla@kel30.kel.studentenwerk-goettingen.de] has joined #openttd 20:21:26 <samu> and i need a newgrf to adjust the pricing 20:21:39 <samu> i thought it was something much more complex than just adjusting prices 20:22:06 <samu> but if it's not, then I don't understand why they have these prices 20:24:15 *** Progman [~progman@p57A18423.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:42 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 20:26:49 <samu> they're ships, it's not like they're an aircraft going at 2000 km/h 20:26:59 <samu> or super big trains at super speeds 20:28:21 <Romazoon> well once upon a time, canal were the Highspeed lines of the ancient world 20:28:23 <samu> and planning a water route in-land also needs some terraforming care, it needs quite some space, and flexibility 20:28:31 <Romazoon> and they were damn expensive 20:28:57 <Romazoon> in money, and especially in number of death 20:29:03 <samu> it isn't always possible to have a ship going into some location 20:29:33 <samu> the game won't suddenly turn into "everyone is making ships" if the costs were cheaper 20:29:55 <Romazoon> and nowaday building a canal or an acqueduct is doubtly cheaper than it use to be (inflation is turned on in real world) 20:30:17 <Keen> Reddit server one has a bunch of griefers on it, anyone here able to deal with them? 20:30:47 <andythenorth> Alberth: smoke is easy to control 20:30:58 <andythenorth> except there are some issues with vehicle length :P 20:31:05 <andythenorth> at different rotations 20:31:23 <andythenorth> but that probably only affects my sprites 20:31:34 <andythenorth> I imagine everyone else draws them âcorrectlyâ 20:32:06 *** w1s [~will@211.25.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 20:32:41 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/steam_front.png 20:33:20 <Alberth> no idea if they are correct, just trying to fix opengfx+trains stuff :) 20:34:38 <frosch123> what do the bounding boxes say? 20:35:09 <frosch123> do their positions make any sense? or is the smoke far away from the bounding boxes? 20:35:34 <frosch123> btw, when do we delete the end-game and highscore windows completely? :p 20:35:41 <samu> i think of ships as slow, yet large capacity buses / trucks 20:35:45 <frosch123> just asking whether it is worth to fix them for zoomgui :) 20:36:09 <samu> I don't see them profiting more than trains, or aircraft 20:36:46 <NGC3982> The fantastic bickering going on the Reddit servers is something else. 20:36:50 <samu> please consider lowering costs for 20:36:54 <samu> water routes 20:37:00 <samu> plese plese plese 20:37:11 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/steam_front_boxes.png 20:38:38 <Alberth> I wouldn't mind to delete those windows, but it's original ttd stuff 20:38:45 <frosch123> white boxes on white smoke :p 20:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> most likely the offsets in the code are just wrong, and should be fixed 20:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> if the smoke looks correct in /\ views 20:39:23 * NGC3982 sees an opportunity to make a Tron mod with that. 20:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: have you tried the same with original vehicles/base set? 20:41:17 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: why? it's ogfx+, not ogfx 20:41:37 <roidal> is there some debug-stuff inside the game? like debug-windows which shows internal data? 20:41:45 <frosch123> yes 20:41:58 <frosch123> search wiki for newgrf and ai debugging tools 20:42:10 <roidal> ok, ty 20:42:16 <frosch123> and the console, if you do not yet know that one 20:46:34 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/original_steam_front.png 20:46:44 <roidal> console i know 20:47:44 <Alberth> also wrong :) 20:47:58 <frosch123> original have the smoke all in the same place 20:48:01 <Alberth> ogfx+trains is faithfully reproducing errors :) 20:48:10 <frosch123> so it must be wrong for shorter vehicles 20:48:43 <Alberth> ogfx+trains is older than the smoke extension, so that makes sense 20:49:19 <frosch123> no, you could also position the smoke before ogfx+ 20:49:29 <frosch123> it's just more advanced now 20:53:07 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 20:56:11 <Alberth> silly NML parser :) visual_effect_and_powered: visual_effect_and_powered(VISUAL_EFFECT_STEAM, 0, ENABLE_WAGON_POWER); 20:57:17 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6BBB8.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 20:58:36 <frosch123> funny how we only enforce a minimal ottd window size of 10x10 20:59:10 <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pho6l0czv?/pho6l0czv <- much better version, now also including enter-chat window 21:01:44 <andythenorth> interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation#Snark_mark 21:01:56 * andythenorth needs a snark-mark 21:02:00 <andythenorth> mostly for Lego forums 21:03:35 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 21:03:51 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6A1D7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:04:53 *** Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:f4da:517a:7790:224a] has quit [Quit: .] 21:05:09 *** roidal [~roland@62-46-138-239.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1] 21:07:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess a mirrored exclamation mark is most excellent for marking irony 21:07:24 *** Plaete [~moffi@dsdf-5f7674bf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 21:07:25 <frosch123> ! 21:07:45 <andythenorth> ideal 21:07:57 <andythenorth> I particularly like the inversion about the vertical axis 21:08:51 <frosch123> 'In algebraic chess notation, "?" denotes a bad move, and "??" a blunder, "?!" a dubious move and "!?" an interesting move. For details of all of the chess punctuation see punctuation (chess).' <- heh 21:09:32 *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck 21:10:03 <Alberth> looks good frosch123 21:11:46 <frosch123> ok, thanks for review :) 21:13:51 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27146 /trunk/src (6 files in 2 dirs) (2015-02-13 21:13:45 UTC) 21:13:52 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Make statusbar and chat-entry window use the same width as the toolbar. Otherwise they lack a size definition. 21:18:29 <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ptibr0ltx?/ptibr0ltx <- scale default window sizes with gui zoom. custom stored sizes are not affected 21:20:32 <Alberth> methods coudl use a little doxygen 21:20:37 <Alberth> *could 21:21:26 <Alberth> otherwise fine 21:25:54 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27147 /trunk/src (window.cpp window_gui.h) (2015-02-13 21:25:48 UTC) 21:25:55 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Scale (non-custom) default window sizes according to GUI zoom. 21:26:07 <frosch123> ok, now i have a clean working copy, so i can look at MHL again :p 21:26:38 <Alberth> :) 21:36:31 <Alberth> BB news needs a link to the location in the news :) 21:36:33 *** Celestar [~Celestar@ip-109-43-1-207.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:36:36 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6EF0C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 21:37:15 <samu> I was bored and went to check prices 21:37:19 <samu> https://rupavq.dm2304.livefilestore.com/y2prm1dn2_06IZAigcKIRpIxSNGp22oBda0sL2hp9IIFKBwzJZUCdMcBnwLHm9Vs56jARXaQppXFmded2Xe9y5DtQSYzaT4dA4nbfqkWhkxMxce8IKLMzHcUa9ypsEmzWH_ghU9GAvEWyfWVM__ebVSfA/comparing%20prices.png?psid=1 21:39:36 <samu> used the most expensive bridge 21:39:41 <samu> and yet... 21:40:04 <samu> from 3997 to 52500 is a huge difference 21:40:24 *** frosch [~frosch@frnk-4d00bac2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 21:40:25 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 21:40:33 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6BBB8.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:46:46 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-5f747cf0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:49:09 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 21:49:16 <andythenorth> libpng warning: iCCP: known incorrect sRGB profile 21:49:19 <andythenorth> is a tedious warning 21:49:26 <andythenorth> as I can neither suppress it (afaict) 21:49:32 <andythenorth> nor does it tell me which files are affected 21:55:45 *** Keen [~Sedo@2a02:810b:340:3648:18c1:99d6:fca5:aa17] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:31 <andythenorth> how does nmlc print things to stdout? 21:56:35 * andythenorth could probably look 21:57:32 <andythenorth> hmm 21:57:38 <andythenorth> maybe âquiet will shut up libpng 21:57:50 <andythenorth> I canât see valid errors right now due to acres of invalid errors 21:58:06 <andythenorth> but eh, with âquiet, do I see anything? :P 21:58:31 *** DanMacK [~3fee8a84@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:59:23 <andythenorth> how do I figure out which libpng bundles is using? 22:00:21 <andythenorth> and why does the Iron Horse build look broken :( https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/iron-horse/lastStableBuild/console 22:00:25 <andythenorth> what _have_ I done 22:00:30 * andythenorth is glum 22:11:14 <Alberth> hmm, how is the libpng of bundles of interest? 22:11:59 <Alberth> I wouldn't expect libpng to emit lines with sprite numbers 22:12:01 <frosch> andythenorth: libpng 1.2 22:13:04 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 22:13:26 <frosch> yeah, those look like nforenum messages 22:13:34 <frosch> do you do custom linking again? 22:13:38 <andythenorth> yes 22:13:41 <andythenorth> Iâm sure I fixed this once 22:13:51 <andythenorth> my browser url history is full of links to this stuff 22:14:19 <andythenorth> I am now distracted though by why bundles appears to build everything thrice 22:14:32 <andythenorth> Iâm going to ignore that :P 22:15:15 <andythenorth> it has been a week of fighting dependencies and ports, I thought Iâd won :) 22:15:17 <andythenorth> wrong 22:19:41 <frosch> start using more chroots and vms 22:19:49 <andythenorth> considered it 22:20:03 <frosch> do you think i messed up my system by installing pyramid and other silly stuff for firs? :p 22:20:07 <andythenorth> seriously, considered vagrant for dev environments 22:20:18 *** w1s [~will@211.25.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:20:27 <andythenorth> itâs considered cheating at work though 22:26:13 * andythenorth strips the bad sRGB profiles with photoshop action 22:26:15 <andythenorth> yay 22:26:24 <andythenorth> quick go to bed andythenorth before anythign else breaks :| 22:26:27 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 22:28:46 *** frosch [~frosch@frnk-4d00bac2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 22:42:21 *** Tirili [~chatzilla@kel30.kel.studentenwerk-goettingen.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [SeaMonkey 2.32/20150115181603]] 22:44:59 *** supermop [~supermop@d110-33-170-165.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 22:48:32 *** Pereba [~UserNick@179.178.244.130] has joined #openttd 22:52:41 <supermop> hi 23:00:11 <samu> im coming up with a balanced, and sensible price structure for canals, aqueducks and locks 23:00:24 <samu> aqueducts* 23:00:35 <samu> it also must make sense 23:01:22 <samu> aqueducts have an exponential cost 23:02:03 <samu> the longer it is, the costlier, this complicates things a bit for shorter ones, but it makes sense the way it is for long ones. They are not to be abused 23:15:13 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 23:19:01 <supermop> do people abuse canals? 23:19:22 <supermop> i rarely build them 23:19:38 <supermop> when i do its often to decorate the center of some city 23:19:43 <samu> canals, no, though they're still expensive 23:19:46 *** Quatroking [~Quatrokin@ip226-139-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:59 <samu> cost is addictive, not exponential for canals 23:20:15 <samu> it's exponential for aqueducts 23:20:43 <samu> i dont wanna make a small aqueducts cheaper than an equivalent in canal tiles 23:20:54 <supermop> in 8 years of playing openttd i don't think i have every built one aquaduct 23:21:43 <samu> i also don't want to make canals so much cheap that they become better means of transportation 23:22:02 <samu> but this exponential thing in aqueducts are complicating my math 23:22:49 <samu> dont want them cheaper than rail or roads for example 23:23:37 <samu> then there's locks, they have a fixed price 23:24:51 <samu> aquaduct of 4 tiles + 2 canal tiles vs 2 locks, 6 tiles 23:25:17 <samu> which one should be more expensive? 23:27:22 <supermop> i dont know depends on what sort of canal you imagine the canals to be 23:27:51 <samu> 2 locks in a row take 6 tiles 23:28:17 <samu> first lock lowers 1 level, second lock raises 1 level 23:28:24 <supermop> a small one for small draft boats should be always cheaper to build aquaduct than any amount of locks, a large one for big ships an aquaduct should not even be alowed 23:28:43 <samu> this can be done the same way with aquaduct 23:29:02 <samu> starts with 1 canal tile, then a 4 sized aquaduct, and ends with 1 more canal tile 23:29:16 <samu> which combination should cost more 23:30:54 <samu> there's an advantage with the aquaduct 23:31:16 <samu> under it, it's possible to create some other routes 23:31:23 <samu> roads under aqueduct 23:31:25 <samu> rails 23:31:34 <samu> with the 2 locks, that way is barred 23:34:12 <samu> in theory, the aquaduct method should cost more 23:35:42 <samu> it's just that it quickly becomes too costly the longer they are, if I set it that way 23:40:07 <samu> lock costs are also tied to the cost of 2 canal tiles, since 2 of the tiles are actually canals. part of the total cost comes from canal cost 23:40:23 <samu> eh... confusing 23:43:04 <samu> once i figure a good pricing scheme, i move on to removal costs, and in the end, maintenance costs 23:43:22 <Wolf01> 'night all 23:43:27 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:45:05 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:05 *** Romazoon [~oftc-webi@233.177.106.92.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]