Log for #openttd on 9th March 2015:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:42  <supermop> can't decide how to divy up the space between what i consider a sidewalk, and what is road
00:02:31  <Oddingar> is it only for roads in openttd?
00:02:58  <supermop> doesn't matter technically as as far as i can tell, the road with sidewalk, and without are two separate full tile sprites
00:03:16  <supermop> at least in base sets, maybe road sets do it differently
00:04:10  <Oddingar> sorry I can't help you :P
00:04:16  <supermop> so you could have roads and sidewalks in towns be wildly different than in country side
00:04:58  <supermop> and tram just overlays over the city road sprite
00:05:20  <supermop> but the amount it overlays again could vary wildly based on preference
00:12:25  <Oddingar> good luck (y) :P gonna watch an episode of homeland
00:30:30  <glx> supermop: as long as the vehicles don't run over the sidewalk ;)
00:31:44  <supermop> where are streetlamps sprites? i dont see them in
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00:36:20  <supermop> plan is to make sidewalks smaller not larger, so that should not be a problem
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00:47:10  <glx> it's in sprites/png/miscellaneous/random.png ;)
00:51:21  <glx> (244,   10,   4,  14) and (249,   10,   4,  14)
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01:16:42  <supermop> hah whyy there of all places?
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01:23:38  <supermop> is there a way in nml or watever to  overlay road marking above sprites?
01:24:39  <supermop> can i have the road sprite at z=0 or so, the tram overlay at z=2, and road markings at z=4??
01:25:03  <supermop> maybe that's not a good idea
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01:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the overlays are fixed
01:55:06  <Eddi|zuHause> as in hardcoded
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02:03:41  <supermop> i realized i dont want paint on the rails anyway
02:39:14  <supermop> I've had to surrender to convention and put more or less regular sized sidewalks on here
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03:38:57  <supermop> when tramway is out on its own outside of a city, is it overlaid on the plain road sprite, or just on the grass?
03:39:13  <supermop> (or desert, snow etc)
03:39:47  <supermop> I am assuming it's laid onto the road sprite, as in the city it is laid onto the city street sprite
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03:42:31  <supermop> looks like its laid onto road
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11:46:58  <Samu> hi
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12:15:46  <argoneus> good afternoon train friends
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12:30:37  <V453000> yay, managed to model the stuff around wheels which makes steam train move, but cant do stuff with it in order to render it to the game XD
12:30:41  <V453000> lets do it again =D
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12:37:51  <planetmaker> :)
12:38:12  <Samu>!759&authkey=!ALNRof2Dbj1aiqU&v=3&ithint=photo%2cpng
12:41:05  <Samu> First Available Engines
12:41:16  <Samu> Default OpenTTD
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12:42:56  <barnex> Hello.
12:43:08  <V453000> hy
12:43:54  <barnex> I'm trying to wrap my head around the .nfo format and I'm having a hard time. I'm not quite getting how/when the new entities (lets say trains for now) come to be and how they are referenced.
12:44:14  <V453000> you want to do vehicles in nfo?
12:44:33  <barnex> I want to get info out of a grf.
12:44:39  <V453000> xd
12:44:51  <barnex> is there a better way than through .nfo?
12:45:02  <V453000> what info do you want?
12:45:30  <barnex> train stuff, lengths of cars, power, max speed, tractive effort, name
12:45:45  <juzza1> what set? did you search for the source of that set?
12:45:49  <barnex> all the sets
12:46:01  <barnex> I want to write a piece of code that extract this
12:46:10  <barnex> So I can write another piece of code that uses this :P
12:46:11  <V453000> ._.
12:46:40  <barnex> so basically my research to date says that I pretty much nead to understand nfo :P
12:46:58  <barnex> to get the data out
12:47:12  <barnex> need
12:47:18  <barnex> wtf is wrong with my english now, sorry
12:47:56  <barnex> seems like decompiling nfo to nfl isn't an option, and even if it was parsing nml seems hard
12:48:08  <barnex> compared to nfo
12:48:44  <barnex> I get that action 00 changes values for specific train ID
12:48:58  <barnex> but I don't get how the vehicle name gets assigned to the train ID?
12:49:07  <planetmaker> eh... you want to make a piece of software which decompiles the grfs in order to do what? compile a manual for them?
12:49:31  <planetmaker> and parsing nml certainly is not really harder than nfo
12:49:46  <planetmaker> especially as nml itself has a parser in-built, thus it's already there
12:49:49  <barnex> planetmaker, well, is there a way to decompile nfo to nml?
12:49:52  <planetmaker> no
12:50:06  <planetmaker> also de-compile would mean grf2nml.
12:50:29  <planetmaker> but I'm curious: what's the use case of that endevour of yours?
12:51:14  <barnex> I want to make a thing that calculates stuff like 'what kind of train I need in order to go that fast with that TL and that kind of cargo and is best given various bestness function'
12:51:34  <barnex> maybe a web thing
12:51:38  <barnex> but that's far ahead
12:51:39  <planetmaker> barnex, that fails for many newgrfs. As they use callback 36 in order to change stuff
12:51:53  <planetmaker> thus properties of vehicles and trains change dynamically depending on date and what-not
12:52:23  <V453000> I was just about to say that
12:52:35  <barnex> that... I wasn't aware of that ever happening
12:52:40  <barnex> why would someone do that? :o
12:52:47  <barnex> this game is confusing enough as it is :D
12:52:50  <V453000> example from NUTS, some trains change speed, power and TE based on e.g. length .... wagons change capacity based on which engine is in front, ...
12:53:00  <V453000> it makes things simpler
12:53:14  <planetmaker> and on track type underneath the train :)
12:53:17  <V453000> you can have one wagon for various kinds of trains, with changed stats, but still just one vehicle
12:53:27  <V453000> and that pm. :)
12:53:32  <V453000> among other things :P
12:53:40  <barnex> ;o
12:53:56  <barnex> so if I'm buying a wagon in the depot and it's not attached to an engine
12:53:58  <V453000> I am not sure how far other sets do this, but yeah...
12:54:05  <barnex> I get different stats
12:54:11  <V453000> yes, it is possible
12:54:11  <barnex> than it's going to actually have?
12:54:18  <V453000> yez
12:54:29  <planetmaker> barnex because they can. Often claimed as being 'realistic', e.g. a dual engine thing with different power on differently electrified tracks or so
12:54:29  <barnex> that doesn't sound like a thing a non-crazy person would consider good
12:54:32  <barnex> at least to me
12:54:47  <V453000> good for what reason, getting stats?
12:54:47  <juzza1> non-crazy, here?
12:54:57  <juzza1> doubtful
12:55:06  <barnex> good for user experience, when I buy stuff and it has certain stats
12:55:15  <planetmaker> or you have one passenger wagon in the list. But on the ICE it's an ICE carriage with X people capacity, but on a 'normal' engine it's a normal carriage with Y persons capacity
12:55:17  <barnex> I'd expect to buy what it says it has
12:55:18  <planetmaker> and shit like that
12:55:25  <V453000> if it is written in the purchase info that it will have different stats with different engines? :)
12:55:33  <barnex> oh ok
12:55:35  <V453000> yeah the passenger wagon is typical
12:55:39  <planetmaker> and with the ICE it has umlimtied speed (defined) by engine but with other engines it can go only 160km/h max or so
12:55:46  <barnex> that makes sense now
12:56:16  <V453000> still, you can probably create a table which train has what, but probably not automatically
12:56:28  <planetmaker> or a piece goods wagon can carry 30 bags of goods, 60 mail bags, 2 vehicle parts
12:56:35  <planetmaker> depending on refit
12:56:43  <V453000> ye
12:57:39  <planetmaker> barnex, and the vehicle might even say so in the purchase list.. but it's hard to parse as callbacks require more input which OpenTTD can supply dynamically
12:58:17  <planetmaker> but OpenTTD itself has that problem often too: newgrfs can do compilicated stuff, thus there's no way to predict whether a refit may actually succeed. It sucks. But changing would break (some) NewGRFs
12:58:44  <barnex> those newGRFs seem like an awfully complicated way to do things
12:59:09  <planetmaker> they're basically small programmes. It's not just property definitions
12:59:53  <planetmaker> and the different versions of the NewGRF language doesn't help parsing either :P
12:59:56  <V453000> sometimes more complicated code is worth reaching more simplicity for the player :)
13:00:24  <V453000> of course unless the player goes bananas and wants to extract stats automatically XD :P
13:00:30  <planetmaker> ^ that. And it allows many different things outside openttd code. Thus openttd itself is easier in that sense. As people can add complexity via newgrfs
13:00:56  <planetmaker> (and via game scripts)
13:01:42  <barnex> yeah, but a lot of games do that sort of stuff in lua or something
13:01:54  <planetmaker> barnex, and, if one would design such thing from scratch, some things would not work how they do, but differently. Much easier then to parse and understand. But well... history :)
13:02:07  <planetmaker> most games don't have 10 years of history
13:02:17  <barnex> instead of developing own format, than a language, and then another language because no one was able to work in the previous one :P
13:02:20  <planetmaker> and we can load savegames created 20 years ago
13:02:30  <barnex> I see
13:02:36  <barnex> so this goes back to ttdpatch?
13:02:49  <planetmaker> and any script usage like lua for these things would decrease performance *dramatically*. NewGRFs are time critical
13:02:51  <V453000> back to everything =D
13:03:04  <planetmaker> yes, the format is shared with TTDPatch. However OpenTTD on its own is already 10 years of age
13:03:33  <planetmaker> and the limits of TTDPatch certainly helped in making the NewGRF format as baroque as it is now :)
13:05:02  <planetmaker> we're slowly working on removing some limits, but it's slow; especially when we want to remain compatible with old NewGRFs
13:07:58  <barnex> well it's probably the best FOSS game ever, so its not like I'm complaining
13:09:51  <planetmaker> :) Maybe you want change focus slightly and to look at our saveload gui and code and try to add more information to the load dialogue concerning the single games? Improving the preview? Or something like that?
13:10:39  <barnex> I'm afraid something like that would involve C++, right?
13:11:22  <planetmaker> it would, yes C/C++
13:11:23  <barnex> it's not exactly a simple and forgiving language one picks up by accident
13:11:41  <barnex> unless you think there's a ticket that could be done with marginal cpp knowledge
13:12:01  <barnex> bacaue templates and stuff like that just scares me
13:12:12  <planetmaker> right... maybe that's for you then: tutorial-GS
13:12:27  <planetmaker> that's writing squirrel mostly. Along with map design for the single steps
13:13:15  <planetmaker> <-- there's already a project. But it could need much more love and is far from finished
13:13:19  <planetmaker> It's currently rather on hiatus
13:13:39  <planetmaker> If that got more love, it's something which *I' could envision being shipped along with OpenTTD itself
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13:14:11  <planetmaker> you can get the current version likely from the ingame content download, too
13:17:22  <planetmaker> it could / can involve some C/C++ work, if the game script API proves insufficient; but that's up to whoever makes the tutorial
13:17:30  <barnex> yeah it's current.
13:41:24  <barnex> hmm.
13:42:03  <barnex> I pretty much hated it, but not in a constructive way
13:42:32  <barnex> I understand that the train section needs expanding and I managed to break the bus section
13:43:53  <barnex> but other than that it seems pretty solid
13:46:02  <luaduck> our primary openttd server has hung with 100% CPU usage
13:46:09  <luaduck> uptime just over a month but this came out of the blue
13:46:21  <luaduck> worth doing any debug before I sigkill it?
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13:51:26  <planetmaker> luaduck, knowing the cause of a bug is always worth it :)
13:51:52  <planetmaker> attach debugger to it and get backtrace maybe?
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14:16:26  <luaduck> I've got no idea what I'm doing when it comes to gdb planetmaker
14:16:36  <luaduck> what's the best way to just dump the entire backtrace from the gdb shell
14:16:40  <luaduck> I'm attached to the process
14:17:39  <planetmaker> can you just issue bt?
14:17:57  <luaduck> dumps it 8 at a time
14:18:12  <luaduck> unless you just want the top of the tree
14:18:30  <planetmaker> rather the whole. But for me it gives the full trace
14:18:34  <luaduck> wait nvm I'm dumb
14:18:35  <luaduck> one sec
14:18:52  <luaduck>
14:19:30  <planetmaker> and it's unresponsive?
14:19:36  <planetmaker> seems stuck in path finder somewhere
14:19:48  <luaduck> CPU jammed at 100% load
14:20:01  <luaduck> completely unresponsive
14:20:09  <planetmaker> however, please create a bug report about that with that trace and the savegame (or last autosave) and OpenTTD version used
14:20:27  <luaduck> alright, will do
14:20:37  <planetmaker> where the backtrace is the most important thing :)
14:20:45  <planetmaker> thanks
14:20:47  <luaduck> jinassi notes that we had a previous load issue with a company exploiting the pathfinder
14:21:01  <planetmaker> hm
14:21:24  <planetmaker> if there is / you know a way to re-create the issue, it's of course even better, if you can describe it
14:21:36  <planetmaker> or if you know the company and can interview that player :)
14:21:38  <luaduck> I'll pop it in the bug and ask jin to comment
14:26:33  <luaduck> server's rekicked, I'll do that bug report in 10 minutes or so
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14:43:26  <luaduck> bug created:
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14:57:18  <planetmaker> ty, luaduck
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15:19:06  <peter1138> Ah, that's why gitlab is such a bitch... it's a ruby/rails app...
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15:35:00  <peter1138> rArgumentError: invalid byte sequence in US-ASCII
15:35:03  <peter1138> Useful :S
15:35:35  * Eddi|zuHause hands peter1138 an À
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18:15:48  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27179 /trunk/src/lang (12 files) (2015-03-09 18:15:33 UTC)
18:15:49  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:15:50  <DorpsGek> afrikaans - 10 changes by telanus
18:15:51  <DorpsGek> croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
18:15:52  <DorpsGek> finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
18:15:53  <DorpsGek> hebrew - 9 changes by oofnik
18:15:54  <DorpsGek> italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
18:15:55  <DorpsGek> korean - 11 changes by Gimel3830, telk5093
18:15:56  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas
18:15:57  <DorpsGek> polish - 4 changes by wojteks86
18:15:58  <DorpsGek> romanian - 29 changes by kneekoo
18:15:59  <DorpsGek> gaelic - 4 changes by GunChleoc
18:16:00  <DorpsGek> slovak - 17 changes by Milsa
18:16:01  <DorpsGek> spanish - 4 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
18:25:06  <Terkhen> hello
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18:36:50  <Alberth> hai
18:38:35  <frosch123> moin :)
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19:02:54  <Alberth> evenink
19:03:12  <Wolf01> oddink
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19:45:59  <Alberth> o/
19:46:00  <andythenorth> o/
19:46:02  <andythenorth> finally
19:46:06  <andythenorth> the watch I’ve been waiting for
19:46:08  <andythenorth> eh what?
19:46:08  <andythenorth> no
19:46:42  <Wolf01> o/
19:46:50  <Alberth> still not sure of the time? :)
19:48:39  <andythenorth> I get by
19:48:48  <andythenorth> I generally find it’s either too early, or too late,
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20:35:08  <andythenorth> hmm
20:35:28  * andythenorth considers reinvented monorails
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20:41:38  <Alberth> not really a train, is it?
20:41:57  <Taede> not in japan at least
20:46:06  <glx> looks like a funicular on monorail
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20:48:30  <andythenorth> eh
20:48:40  <andythenorth> what did we call that 5th transport type?
20:48:43  <andythenorth> packets? units?
20:49:01  <andythenorth> has anyone coded it yet?
20:49:06  <andythenorth> does it even fit in the map array?
20:51:13  <frosch123> it's "send money"
20:51:19  <frosch123> quite boring thoughj
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21:12:40  <andythenorth> is cat asleep?
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21:22:02  <Oddingar> dunno, our cat is in the cow house
21:22:07  <Oddingar> most likely sleeping
21:22:10  <Oddingar> or puking
21:22:15  <Oddingar> seems to be the only thing it does
21:22:26  <Oddingar> besides killing mice and leaving them everywhere
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22:16:18  <supermop> good morning
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22:23:11  <Eddi|zuHause> good midnight yourself.
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22:35:14  <supermop> having a thousand or so modeled cobblestones in this model seems to be a bad idea
22:35:35  <supermop> but it does look better than a texture so far
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22:40:00  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could render a texture out of your model, and reuse that :p
22:41:24  <supermop> haha actually thats what I am thinking of doing!
22:42:00  <supermop> i was looking to see if the program has an automatic way to do something like that but no luck
22:42:18  <supermop> I could also make the geometry of the stones less complex
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23:26:10  <Wolf01> 'night
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