Log for #openttd on 16th March 2015:
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00:47:35  <luaduck> is there an easy way to hide the GUI elements? (console command or something?)
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00:54:06  <Geoff_AK> I always found that if you have more than one vehicle loading at a station that the rating never went above a certain point. I have been away from the game for a long time though but getting the urge again ;)
00:54:49  <Geoff_AK> thats if they were waiting for cargo btw not if cargo was available to take
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01:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> luaduck: hide from what?
01:04:34  <Eddi|zuHause> luaduck: close all windows with the "del" key
01:05:03  <Eddi|zuHause> luaduck: or make screenshots without gui elements with the "normal zoom screenshot" or "maximum zoom screenshot" features in the ? menu
01:05:07  <luaduck> sorry, should have been more specific
01:05:19  <luaduck> the top button bar and the bottom stats bar
01:05:27  <luaduck> I could screenshot but I plan on taking video sooo
01:05:48  <Eddi|zuHause> no, they cannot be hidden from the game
01:05:56  <luaduck> nngh
01:06:27  <Eddi|zuHause> you can make a video from exporting a screenshot every tick
01:06:52  <Eddi|zuHause> (but this will also hide your mouse cursor)
01:07:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose you could patch it to hide the menu bar...
01:08:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the screenshot console command has parameters
01:08:46  <Eddi|zuHause> but i still don't quite know what you're trying to do
01:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also have two screens, and align the menu left or right, to have it only show up on the screen you're not recording
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01:28:52  <supermop> hi
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01:43:03  <OldManPopo> Well that took longer then expected....
01:43:14  <OldManPopo> That was decidedly more then a few minutes
01:43:57  <OldManPopo> Coming back to the repeated sounds of trains breaking down is not a good thing....
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02:08:50  <OldManPopo> Just saw my first 100% transported notification :)
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02:15:24  <GriffinOneTwo> !info
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02:49:59  <OldManPopo> !info
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04:33:12  <chillcore> good morning interwebz o/
05:00:29  <supermop> hi
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05:10:06  <chillcore> hello supermop
05:12:41  <supermop> hows terrain going?
05:14:06  <chillcore> it's comming slow but steadily
05:14:22  <chillcore> thing is I got to keep myself from tuning :P
05:15:15  <chillcore> it works but the gui stuffs ... so much interaction and other things that come into play
05:15:54  <chillcore> instead of just the perlin noise I gave to take mapsize into consideration and now snowline/desertline too
05:17:35  <chillcore> one major hurdle is my incompetence when it comes to pinters and shortening code
05:18:08  <chillcore> everything works if I just write it out like I have it in my head
05:20:09  <supermop> ah
05:20:41  <chillcore> and then there is still that mysterious bug that causes glitches ... it is in trunk but it only happens once in a blue moon
05:21:11  <supermop> huh? for tall heights?
05:21:29  <supermop> is the maximum safe height of a building still the same now?
05:21:41  <chillcore> when it happens I make a debug build and it is gone so I can not debug properly unless I make debug builds all the time which are slow
05:22:04  <chillcore> nah it is not the high buildings glitching
05:22:14  <chillcore> and yes that shouldbe fixed in trunk now
05:22:26  <chillcore> the values were too low
05:23:41  <chillcore> if only I could remeber which commit it was in ... it was commited by frosh IIRC
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05:23:56  <chillcore> you should be safe with building 220 pixels high at zoom 1
05:24:09  <chillcore> but don't pin me on that value ;)
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05:25:18  <supermop> hmm that only lets me make buildings 66m high
05:31:27  <chillcore> oh you've got scale in openttd?
05:31:32  <chillcore> :P
05:32:52  <chillcore> you can go higher if you make it multi-tile structure
05:32:53  <Eddi|zuHause> 66m is really high for a building
05:33:13  <chillcore> hello eddi o/
05:33:47  <supermop> it would only be around 20 floors
05:33:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i should be sleeping, but i'm kinda sick
05:35:22  <Eddi|zuHause> so? my city has maybe 10 buildings coming even close to 20 floors
05:36:56  <Eddi|zuHause> the majority of buildings have 4-6 floors
05:37:28  <Eddi|zuHause> in less dense areas 2...
05:39:09  <supermop> well that can vary a lot from region to region based on local planning constraints and incentives
05:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and i suppose that goes for almost all cities in the world, except maybe manhattan
05:39:34  <Eddi|zuHause> or tokyo
05:39:51  <supermop> most american cites are very low rise 1-3 floors, but have a small core of 30-50 floor buildings
05:40:46  <supermop> tokyo is actually majority 10 floors or so except in certain areas where better bedrock makes 50 floor buildings seismically safe
05:41:06  <Eddi|zuHause> look at paris, you don't find any large buildings except for the eiffel tower...
05:41:20  <supermop> yes, because they do not allow them!
05:41:38  <supermop> except at the edges of the city, places like la defense
05:41:42  <Eddi|zuHause> central london doesn't either
05:42:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the only place i know that has skyscrapers is frankfurt
05:42:51  <supermop> well there are a couple very tall buildings in London, but not in the 300+m range like you get in asia
05:43:39  <supermop> but then places like shanghai, traditionally 3-4 story shophouses, now has a handful of 400+m buildings
05:44:00  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the high buildings are in the docklands, which is closer to what la defense is to paris
05:44:14  <chillcore> our highest buildings have sopething like 20 floors too
05:44:16  <supermop> or shard in southbank
05:44:23  <chillcore> the exceptions are few
05:44:52  <supermop> melbourne and sydney are quite tall in the cbd, then very low surrounding it
05:45:00  <supermop> that kind of contrast would be nice
05:45:13  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: for this game, i find the skyscrapers like in TTRS really out of place
05:45:46  <Eddi|zuHause> things like that should be more or less unique, but the way this game works you need buildings that are very generic and can be repeated over and over
05:46:28  <supermop> me too, but i feel like it is because they are drawn completely differently than the houses
05:46:44  <supermop> and they are 1x1 tiles
05:47:10  <supermop> if a house is 1 tile a 100m building should really be at least 2x2
05:48:02  <supermop> 20 floors is enough for i think 95% of all buildings in any set
05:48:12  <Eddi|zuHause> assuming a rigid scale probably won't get you very far in this game
05:48:48  <supermop> it would be nice though to have maybe 6 or so buildings noticeably taller than anything else to grow in the biggest of big cities
05:49:04  <supermop> limited to one instance each per map
05:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if you can actually do that
05:50:08  <Eddi|zuHause> once per city may be possible
05:50:46  <supermop> japan houses lets you choose skyscrapers and unique buildings to be once per city, once per map, or unlimited
05:51:08  <Eddi|zuHause> because you need to store the "this was already built" bit somewhere, and you can't search the entire map for each building to be constructed
05:51:18  <supermop> i usually play that set on once per map and rarely see the skyscrapers
05:52:01  <supermop> i feel like the lack of scale actually hurts things like ttrs though, as the skyscrapers are drawn as if they are tall 200m buildings, but then shrunk to fit on one tile
05:52:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i never tried that set
05:52:25  <Eddi|zuHause> and don't know how they do it
05:52:39  <supermop> as a result the floor-to-floor height is just a couple pixels, and it's 6-8 for short buildings and houses
05:53:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the default houses are full of these scale issues
05:53:12  <supermop> of course
05:54:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you could also go the UK houses road, and make the small buildings occupy half a tile
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05:56:55  <supermop> yeah
05:57:34  <supermop> i like that about japan houses, the old shops and houses fit several to a tile
05:58:23  <supermop> the tall building in that set are only 20-30 floors at most, but seem well proportioned on 1 tile next to the tiny little houses
05:59:01  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you won't be able to do anything about the maximum height of a house
05:59:27  <supermop> i like the implicit suggestion that there are small intra-tile lanes and street that are not passable to commercial vehicles but still are there
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06:00:49  <GriffinOneTwo> !info
06:15:19  <supermop> i wish tramway had separate sidewalks than regular road
06:16:30  <supermop> the driveway and crosswalk cuttings i added for street sidewalks look stupid if the sidewalk is along a tramway with no road
06:17:30  <supermop> and i cant just draw optimized tram sidewalks as part of the tramway as they would then show up even when building tramway through rural areas
06:17:50  <supermop> so i guess i'll just remove those details
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06:47:45  <Supercheese> Huh, I just realized you can sort-of have diagonal stations by just removing the "train is longer than station" overhang penalty and build a single-tile station with several diagonal tracks before and/or after it
06:48:02  <Supercheese> it's not 100% diagonal, but nearly
06:49:37  <chillcore> screenshot?
06:51:44  <Supercheese> well, it doesn't look very clean since it's a 1-tile station with lots of bare track
06:53:56  <Supercheese> and you have to have a patched version to do that
06:55:29  <Supercheese> Specifically this patch:
06:59:17  <chillcore> hmm that code only disables the loading/unloading penalt?
06:59:51  <chillcore> how does it enable diagonal stations ... can't see what you mean in the screenshots at first glance
06:59:52  <supermop> seems simpler to just photoshop some diagonal and sloped ogfx platform sprites, as well as for a few gpl'd station grfs
07:00:36  <supermop> then convince people to include those in their grfs, then convince someone to add or update the old patch that allowed diagonal or sloped stations
07:01:37  <Supercheese> yes, there would surely be better ways
07:04:13  <supermop> ogfx+ stations would be nice
07:04:22  <chillcore> hmm ... still looking for 'the' screenshot
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07:07:05  <chillcore> oh right I get it now ... you make a 1 tile staion and aply patch to not have slower loading times
07:07:16  <supermop> not sure if it would best be in pixel art or rendered
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08:24:58  <supermop> ok i've figured out how to do my tramway terminus
08:25:11  <supermop> can stations use 2cc?
08:25:24  <chillcore> I believe so yes
08:25:40  <supermop> i feel like i was never able to get it to work on my rail sheds
08:25:48  <chillcore> reasoning: they are company owned
08:26:00  <chillcore> I'd have to check to be sure
08:26:17  <supermop> are there any other cases where non-vehicles use the 2nd cc?
08:26:31  <chillcore> HQ
08:27:02  <chillcore> hm I think everything company owned really
08:27:15  <supermop> i am thinking it may be nice to have the little sign on bus stops and tram stops in 2nd cc, in case one likes to differentiate tram and rail service
08:28:25  <supermop> now what would be really crazy would be: bus stop on road has sign in whatever cc is assigned to Buses, stop on tramway has cc assigned to trams, and stop on both has a sign in both colors
08:29:19  <supermop> here buses and trams never share stops normally very few areas where they run on same street, and in those cases the stops are a few 10s of meters apart
08:30:07  <supermop> but the buses are orange and have an orange sign, trams are green and havve a green sign (trains are blue, so stops for rail replacement buses have blue sign)
08:31:00  <supermop> anyway i have no idea how to do CC in 32bpp
08:31:17  <supermop> so i will just make the sign grey for now
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08:35:58  <chillcore> it should work the same as 8bpp
08:36:09  <chillcore> simple masks
08:36:28  <chillcore> not sure if the wiki has a comprhensive list of 2 cc stuffs
08:36:41  <supermop> i am not sure
08:36:56  <supermop> but i wonder about pikka's way
08:37:01  <chillcore> I guess peeps just find out if when they get there?
08:37:11  <chillcore> pikka's way?
08:37:13  <supermop> where he has separate renders for each CC
08:37:25  <supermop> in pineapple trains
08:37:40  <chillcore> hmm ... you mean he uses liveries
08:38:01  <chillcore> not sure as I have not checked
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08:38:22  <chillcore> but that is what comes to mind when you said seperate renders
08:39:49  <supermop> anyway not a big problem now
08:39:55  <chillcore> true
08:40:10  <supermop> i am trying to keep myself from starting to model bus and tram stops
08:40:25  <chillcore> good luck with that ;)
08:40:35  <supermop> as i think it will slow me down and distract me from finishing the basic roads
08:40:55  <chillcore> I know what you mean ...
08:40:57  <supermop> once there is a version 0.1 of road then I can do bus stops
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08:41:25  <chillcore> hi alberth o/
08:41:31  <Alberth> hi hi
08:41:38  <supermop> same with extra details and different stules of road to choose from
08:41:40  <supermop> hi Alberth
08:41:49  <V453000> just see NUTS documentation :)
08:42:02  <chillcore> ye it is best to get the basics covered before venturing there
08:42:06  <V453000> I think it needs some polishing and considering, but yeah
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08:42:30  <supermop> best to get the basic done first even if it looks funny when RVs drive on wrong side of road
08:42:48  <chillcore> I posted another update alberth, I've got the magic boxes working properly
08:43:14  <chillcore> not yet the slidy bits unfortunatly ... so much to do still
08:43:16  <supermop> (ie drawing separate road markings for AU, JP, EU, UK, NA, etc)
08:43:17  <V453000> Company Colour infrastructure
08:43:31  <Alberth> chillcore:  :O  I wondered what magic boxes you were talking about :)
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08:44:16  <chillcore> empty boxes without sliders hehe, see screenshot
08:45:08  <supermop> thanks V453000
08:45:17  <V453000> yw
08:45:27  <V453000> it isnt very clear what I am doing there unless you have after effects, but yeah
08:45:34  <supermop> should be simple enough to render a little stripe mask over the bus stop sign
08:45:55  <Flygon> On a semi-related  note. Is it possible to somehow implement bus/tram stops that only stick to one side of the road?
08:45:58  <chillcore> alberth: left_click = false in the code is so you can click-drag instead of clicking a million times
08:46:05  <V453000> basic points: render the CC things separately, take that, do something with it
08:46:06  <supermop> Flygon: not yet
08:46:12  <Flygon> Bugger.
08:46:22  <V453000> in zbase, the something is paint it all with 1 CC colour and let the game sort it out
08:46:28  <supermop> fancier road stops seem to be waiting on new airports
08:46:39  <Flygon> If we're ever going to replicate Calder Freeway's randomass middle-of-nowhere bus stops
08:46:39  <V453000> in NUTS I try to palletize the 32bpp, to no great results yet
08:46:40  <V453000> much
08:46:47  <Flygon> We're gonna need them single sided and just signs in the ground :B
08:46:57  <Flygon> (Sunbury-Moonee Ponds bus)
08:47:17  <Alberth> chillcore: ah right.  wouldn't just 'click somewhere' work?
08:47:29  <chillcore> sure but you can nt drag then
08:47:30  <supermop> the basic road stop allows vehicles from both sides to stop
08:47:34  <Alberth> I'd have to try it to see how it works, but not now
08:47:54  <chillcore> whenever is fine alberth, just wanted to let yu know
08:47:54  <supermop> in the future one may make a stop that only serves one side
08:49:07  <Alberth> chillcore: hmm, indeed, I guess you need something like the scrollbar. The scrollbar also has some trickery to reduce the number of clicks
08:49:22  <Alberth> still anooyed by not allowing right-click in scrollbars though :p
08:49:46  <chillcore> Alberth: I might need some help to shorten parts of my code ... this pointer stuffs is holding me back and I keep getting crashes. however don't feel obliged
08:49:59  <chillcore> why would you need right-click alberth?
08:50:17  <Alberth> I tend to want a 'go here' click
08:50:42  <chillcore> and left-clicking lower does not cut it?
08:50:44  <Alberth> ie just jump to that position
08:50:52  <Alberth> left click goes down 1 page
08:50:59  <chillcore> I see
08:51:41  <Alberth> my window manager uses middle-click for that function, very nice
08:52:05  <chillcore> my code just takes into account where in the box you clicked (not my code, the one I stole from music_gui)
08:52:24  <Alberth> yeah, I'd expect something like that
08:52:36  <chillcore> I have not yet looked at how the scrollbars work
08:53:16  <chillcore> but yeah music_gui works like that ... the slider just moves where you clicked
08:53:20  <chillcore> that's it
08:53:28  <Alberth> I am happy to help you out, but please make a small description of what exactly you want me to look at, and what the problem actually is
08:54:02  <chillcore> hmm ... basically the loading saving parameters code can be shorter
08:54:03  <Alberth> 7z compressed is 24KB, unpacked it's a lot more
08:54:36  <Alberth> it can be as easy as "have a look at code around there and there" or so
08:54:43  <supermop> Flygon: it would be nice if stop graphics could change based on townzone, sidewalk, or road/tramway, but i am not aware of any means for that
08:55:03  <Flygon> Hopefully, there'll be a means in future, then
08:55:06  <Flygon> It'd be amazing to, like
08:55:12  <Alberth> chillcore: if possible, please send me a PM, so I can find it again :)
08:55:17  <supermop> i don't think there is any newgrf spec for road stops, only to replace default sprites
08:55:19  <Flygon> Have variety from "Pole in Ground" to "Tram Superstop" or "Sunbury Bus Exchange"
08:56:04  <chillcore> Alberth: ye the thing has grown a bit ... biggest prob I have is puttin setting in an arreay and then being able to change the values without errors
08:56:45  <supermop> currrently you could have several styles and choose one by parameter or date (like road surface) but all stops will be the same
08:56:49  <chillcore> but yeah I'll send you a pm as that will be easier to focus one one specific thing indeed
08:56:56  <chillcore> alberth ^^^
08:57:15  <Alberth> ok, thanks
08:57:24  <chillcore> no thank you ;)
09:01:36  <supermop> my plan (and i don't even want to think about this now as it will distract me...) is to have the stops be low platforms that are an extension of the sidewalks
09:02:22  <supermop> it may look odd for buses as the street will narrow at each bus stop rather than widen, but I think it will look best overall
09:02:49  <supermop> then i can later add an alternate that is just a pole on the sidewalk
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09:39:47  <chillcore> bbl ;)
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10:33:54  <supermop> i should just ask for payment for my freelance work in the form of a new computer
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11:03:14  <Alberth> it's quite difficult to get food in exchange for a computer, at a super market :)
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11:09:55  <bereasonable> Hey guys! Got another question. It's another signal one I'm afraid! On Supercheese 's advice I switched to One-Way Paths. However, I've got a train who's having some trouble finding a path. The one just before the station. There are two open platforms!
11:11:09  <bereasonable> Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, my newb signalling is improving.. slightly.
11:11:59  <Eddi|zuHause> have you checked the electrification?
11:12:39  <Eddi|zuHause> are 90° turns disabled?
11:13:41  <bereasonable> 90degs are on, it's not electrified but I just upgraded the track in case. The old trains can still run on the electric tracks I assume ?
11:13:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and try enabling "show reserved paths", sometimes weird things happen
11:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause> also, make .png screenshots, not .jpg
11:15:14  <bereasonable> Oh, shit. Sorry, I thought I could use the clipboard upload. No idea why they would make it automatically a jpg.
11:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> there might be a checkbox on upload saying "disable processing this image" or somesuch
11:17:30  <bereasonable> He left the station - I'm going to stop him in the platform so I can see if it happens again.
11:17:30  <Eddi|zuHause> thing is, jpg makes the image both undecipherable, and actually larger in size
11:17:38  <bereasonable> Yeah JPGs are garbage, 100%
11:18:26  <Eddi|zuHause> jpg is fine for actual photos. but anything computer generated will be terrible as jpg
11:19:14  <bereasonable> So the train is just reserving the track it's on, but 'waiting for free path' even though there is defs a free path. hrm.
11:19:15  <bereasonable>
11:20:54  <bereasonable> I thought I just needed one path signal at the start of the branch, should I have one at the start of each platform too as well as at the end?
11:23:40  <Eddi|zuHause> no
11:25:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so, what i think happens is that the two platforms are shorter than the 3rd, and the train will avoid going to a too short platform, and wait for the long platform to free up
11:25:51  <bereasonable> Geez. I'm an idiot! They are shorter, I didn't even realise. let me add that extra length
11:26:21  <bereasonable> Yep. you're 100% right. Thanks! boy, don't I feel silly. :P
11:27:31  <Eddi|zuHause> these catenary poles creep me out with the two red pixels. they look like signals...
11:28:21  <bereasonable> Heh. What do you normally play? By which I mean do you use a GRF or something to change.. either the signals or the catenary poles?
11:28:40  <bereasonable> I'm still fairly new so always asking people about their settings/grfs
11:28:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i use the "dutch catenary" set. but it also depends on which baseset you use
11:29:33  <bereasonable> oh, they look nice.
11:29:53  <bereasonable> And distinctly un-signal-like which is handy.
11:30:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i put that in [newgrf-static] in the config, so it will always be enabled even on multiplayer servers that don't have it
11:30:53  <bereasonable> Oh, I had no idea you could do that. That's useful.
11:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> only a handful of newgrfs can be used this way
11:31:33  <Eddi|zuHause> specifically, ones that don't affect gameplay
11:32:08  <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately, nobody ever put this on the GUI
11:32:47  <bereasonable> Makes sense, I imagine it would refuse to work if you tried to put in gameplay newgrfs. It's cool you can have your own graphics though, if you want.
11:33:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it'll just not activate
11:33:33  <bereasonable> I've just been playing vanilla because still have very little idea what I'm doing.
11:36:21  <bereasonable> Anyway, back to the trains. Thank you for your help :)
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13:07:49  <Samu> i found a bug
13:08:03  <Samu> i have a train with service interval of 150%
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13:11:37  <Samu> actually, more than 1
13:12:02  <Samu> i'm submiting bug report
13:13:54  <Samu> oh, it's similar to this
13:13:55  <Samu>
13:14:06  <Samu> erm,, sorry big link
13:17:55  <Samu> nevermind, that report is false
13:18:08  <Samu> i'm opening a new task
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13:32:23  <Samu> bug:
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13:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that can happen if you convert the service interval from days to percent.
13:42:32  <Eddi|zuHause> 150 days will become 150%
13:42:46  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't adjust afterwards, it's your fault
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13:52:55  <Samu> how's that my fault?
13:53:31  <Samu> i have default set to 15% interval
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13:58:49  <Alberth> so what's the error?  it seems to behave as you specified
13:59:31  <Samu> 150%
13:59:35  <Samu> ~it's over 100%
14:00:10  <Alberth> and?
14:00:31  <Samu> 255 breakdowns, never servicing
14:00:49  <Alberth> sure, you shouldn't specify 150%
14:01:03  <Alberth> just as you shouldn't specify 100,000 days or so
14:01:18  <Samu> the game doesn't even let me put a value over 90
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14:01:37  <Samu> that 150% was there, I didn't set that
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14:41:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i told you how you get that...
14:42:05  <Eddi|zuHause> also, default as 15% is probably not useful either
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14:45:11  <Samu> seems good
14:45:38  <Samu> how many days from 22 may to 13 sep
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16:09:27  <LordAro> this Cities: Skylines is rather fun
16:11:05  <__ln__> yes it is
16:11:49  <Eddi|zuHause> is that something like sim city?
16:12:42  <__ln__> very much like
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16:30:47  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: it's the game sim city 2013 should have been
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16:45:15  <Terkhen> hello
16:47:34  <Alberth> hello
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17:45:30  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27189 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-03-16 18:45:22 +0100 )
17:45:31  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32  <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
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18:17:13  <Eddi|zuHause> we should totally use this:
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18:30:59  <Terkhen> that's awesome
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18:48:52  <Samu> omg these strange bugs poping out of nowhere :(
18:49:36  <Samu> I have a docks with goods, but i have no ship taking goods there
18:49:44  <Samu> why does it have goods?
18:49:51  <Samu> it shouldn't
18:51:26  <Alberth> enabled dumping of cargos at stations without actual demand?
18:51:51  <glx> or a ship stopped there once
18:52:18  <Samu> no
18:52:29  <Samu> there are ships there, but they're taking fruits
18:52:39  <Samu> all of them, I confirmed
18:53:09  <Alberth> for the entire length of the game?
18:53:12  <Samu> let me look at the autosave
18:53:21  <Alberth> don't bother :)
18:56:26  <Samu> dock was there since 2 jan 1947
18:56:45  <Samu> it's 1992 now
18:56:54  <Samu> a factory spawned nearby
18:57:03  <Alberth> k
18:57:24  <Samu> i sent trucks with rubber and copper ore to the factory, it's a truck station separate from the dock
18:57:26  <Alberth> you so enabled dropping produced cargo onto the station without having a demand?
18:57:53  <Samu> I didn't
18:58:37  <Samu> this dock was from a bankrupted company, but when I saw it, it had no ships
18:58:56  <Samu> i used it to transport fruit
18:59:08  <Samu> it's the same savegame from the bug report
18:59:16  <Alberth> you use a nightly or a 1.5 beta?
18:59:48  <Samu> 1.5 beta 2
18:59:52  <Samu>,%201965-02-24.sav
19:00:02  <Samu> that's the same dock, in 1965
19:00:09  <Samu> Nantley Valley
19:00:32  <Alberth> yeah, well, just don't touch the goods then, and they will disappear in about 2 years
19:00:59  <Samu> do you think there was a ship with goods in there once?
19:01:15  <glx> probably
19:01:33  <Alberth> either that, or the dock is connected to some other station platform, which has goods transport
19:01:55  <Alberth> or had goods transport
19:02:34  <Samu> lol, there wasn't even a factory in 1965
19:02:46  <glx> maybe the wrong ship got there at the beginning before the factory happened
19:04:04  <Samu> I'm not certain if my opponent sent any ship to that dock, but if he did, it would have been for fruits
19:04:13  <Samu> how could I tell?
19:04:57  <glx> you can't, but when a vehicle accepting a given cargo visit a station a bit is set
19:05:18  <glx> meaning the station will received this cargo to be transported
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19:06:06  <glx> and sending the wrong vehicle can happen, especially if it's a vehicle needing a refit
19:06:49  <Samu> hmm, I see
19:07:31  <Samu> it must have been him without me noticing
19:08:10  <Samu> when I got his company, there wasn't any ship for his company, but the docks and ship depots were there
19:08:26  <Samu> it was set to transport fruit, but it was missing ships
19:08:45  <Samu> the docks were at fruit and at food processing plant
19:09:14  <Samu> must pay more attention
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19:13:20  <Wolf01> hello o/
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19:16:02  <Alberth> moin moin
19:21:13  <frosch123> hai
19:28:55  <V453000> Hyyyyyy
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19:36:35  <frosch123> we should remove the original acceleration models
19:37:11  <frosch123> no sane person uses it
19:37:31  <frosch123> so it takes weeks until someone notices that it crashes because of some new feature :p
19:37:40  <Wolf01> I do, but I can't be considered sane... or a person
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19:38:25  <Wolf01> Usually I do it on vanilla games, without any grf
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19:41:51  <frosch123> sanity is a relative thing
19:42:45  <Samu> nerf acceleration going downslope
19:42:58  <Samu> then remove original
19:43:00  <Samu> :)
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19:44:54  <frosch123> btw. did anyone figure out in the past 7 years, why the console classes start with an I?
19:44:54  <Wolf01> I'm improving my abilities: just found the title of a (famous) book remembering only the age and some doubts about the author... and it took only 25 minutes, instead of 3 months like the previous movie title :D
19:45:13  <TrueBrain> frosch123: hahahaha
19:45:15  <TrueBrain> lolz
19:45:37  <TrueBrain> the sad part is, I know why .. and I took it as a given :D
19:45:58  <Samu> empty trains move slower downlope than full trains
19:46:11  <TrueBrain> only looking back I understand it makes no sense at all :D
19:46:33  <frosch123> TrueBrain: now you made me curious :)
19:46:44  <TrueBrain> and now it becomes an art not telling :D
19:47:22  <TrueBrain> well, you can say a lot, but it is consistent :)
19:47:26  <Alberth> it's a test to see how well you can keep a secret :p
19:48:26  <TrueBrain> I wonder if it is written down anywhere ..
19:48:37  <TrueBrain> ha, it is :D
19:49:06  <TrueBrain> both in the code, on the wiki, and in the readme :D
19:50:14  <TrueBrain> frosch123: the console was written by sign_de
19:50:22  <TrueBrain> if I am not mistaken, he also wrote the "blackbook" wiki pages
19:50:45  <TrueBrain> either way, no clue why exactly anymore, but there was a reason to call it Ingame Console
19:50:48  <frosch123> ah, so "I" means "implementation"
19:50:49  <TrueBrain> which became IConsole
19:50:54  <TrueBrain> looking back, it makes no sense at all
19:50:56  <frosch123> contrary to "D" for "documentation"
19:50:59  <TrueBrain> but .. then it was very logic :)
19:51:15  <TrueBrain> there are a few references left to "Ingame"
19:51:20  <TrueBrain> in openttd.cpp, where the IConsole is initialized
19:51:31  <TrueBrain> and in the Blackbook wiki pages :)
19:51:44  <frosch123> i also call it in-game console
19:51:59  <frosch123> but i would not have expected that to be abbreviated into a single letter
19:52:02  <TrueBrain> so then I wonder why you didnt figure that out yourself :P :P
19:52:04  <TrueBrain> :D
19:52:10  <TrueBrain> guess otherwise it was too long :D
19:52:43  <Alberth> Interface didn't exist at the time as concept?
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19:53:00  <TrueBrain> Interface exists for a lot longer than that :D
19:53:12  <TrueBrain> the console btw was the first part that really allowed "scripting"
19:53:13  <Alberth> hmm, was C of course, wrong language :p
19:53:31  <TrueBrain> cute, looking back :)
19:53:39  <TrueBrain> but so yeah ...
19:53:43  <TrueBrain> Ingame Console :)
19:54:05  <Alberth> :)
19:55:12  <TrueBrain> hmm .. Bamboo now has "elastic images", for Amazon bla
19:55:20  <TrueBrain> but .. it has one for WIndows, including MSBuild etc
19:55:53  <TrueBrain> pretty nice tbh
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19:57:43  <Wolf01> o/
19:59:43  <frosch123> TrueBrain: do you want a test commit?
19:59:57  <TrueBrain> not really .. I just want WT3 to commit :D
20:00:03  <TrueBrain> he is having issues :)
20:00:17  <frosch123> ok, can i commit nevertheless? :p
20:00:36  <TrueBrain> yes, ofc :)
20:00:43  <TrueBrain> I wouldnt want to hold back progress :)
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20:01:20  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27190 trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp (2015-03-16 21:01:14 +0100 )
20:01:21  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6255] (r27106): Original road vehicle acceleration crashed for vehicles taking over.
20:01:24  <andythenorth> o/
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20:02:05  <TrueBrain> I like that we sync to github now automatically :)
20:02:08  <TrueBrain> that makes me happy :)
20:03:16  <andythenorth> a happy TrueBrain is a good TrueBrain
20:03:27  <Xaroth|Work> apart from me being annoying messages from this TrueBrain person every time that happens
20:03:30  * Xaroth|Work turns off spam
20:03:52  <TrueBrain> it gives you messages?!
20:04:00  <glx> last sentence doesn't parse for me
20:04:01  <Xaroth|Work> TrueBrain pushed to master at OpenTTD/OpenTTD
20:04:01  <Xaroth|Work> TrueBrain 5b1632f (svn r27190) -Fix [FS#6255] (r27106): Original road vehicle accelerat.
20:04:13  <TrueBrain> haha
20:04:21  <TrueBrain> so I do need to figure out if we had an account, or otherwise create one ...
20:04:22  <TrueBrain> roger that :D
20:04:47  <Xaroth|Work> unless you want people to think you're VERY active with openttd
20:05:08  <glx> if no account exists I suggest vcs as name
20:05:24  <TrueBrain> Username is already taken
20:05:29  <TrueBrain> hmm .. yes, it is a group
20:05:35  <glx> svn then
20:05:38  <TrueBrain> cant I set a key for a group ...
20:05:47  <andythenorth> what an earth is all this, and how does it relate to a better map?
20:05:48  <andythenorth>
20:06:05  <andythenorth> I often struggle to understand what game players are playing
20:07:05  <TrueBrain> ha, okay, I just used the wrong key
20:07:08  <TrueBrain> lemme try to fix that
20:08:22  <TrueBrain> there, that should solve the messages Xaroth :)
20:08:27  <Xaroth|Work> \o/
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20:09:10  <TrueBrain> bit hidden where organization keys are stored
20:09:19  <TrueBrain> not via settings on the top right, but via settings of the repos itself
20:09:23  <TrueBrain> yes, those are different places :P
20:10:04  <glx> lol and I received a mail about the key change on my opendune email (logical after all but seems weird at first look)
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20:10:17  <TrueBrain> yeah ... I "misplaced" the existing one :D
20:10:24  <TrueBrain> it didnt give an email for removing a key btw :P
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20:10:55  <glx> my email for github is the opendune one
20:11:09  <Alberth> andythenorth: it's just cirdans version of openttd
20:11:30  <andythenorth> hmm
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20:29:03  <UukGoblin> hello :-)
20:29:51  <Alberth> o/
20:30:26  <UukGoblin> say I have a steel mill station with 4 tracks. I have 5 steel truck trains that pick up steel from it, and 5 iron ore trains that dump iron there. What's the best way to ensure that at least 1 platform is available for unloading ore (in order not to cause a deadlock?)
20:30:45  <UukGoblin> should I go with waypoints before each platform track?
20:31:10  <Alberth> 2 stations, 6 platforms, or 2 way points would work :)
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20:31:37  <UukGoblin> righty :-)
20:31:43  <UukGoblin> thank you
20:31:57  <UukGoblin> a conditional order jump if a given path is blocked would be SO AWESOME
20:32:25  <Alberth> not sure why you need that many platforms though, unloading needs 2 or 3 at most
20:33:02  <UukGoblin> for loading I guess? and to prevent deadlocks in the past
20:33:09  <UukGoblin> via the "6 platforms" method (when I had fewer trains)
20:33:25  <UukGoblin> (I originally had 3 steel trains)
20:37:56  <andythenorth> 2 stations
20:38:10  <andythenorth> don’t contend delivery and collection
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20:38:15  <andythenorth> deadlocks are easy that way
20:38:28  <andythenorth> instead of engineering a solution to manage deadlocks, make deadlocks impossible
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20:38:38  <andythenorth> less work, better results
20:39:05  <UukGoblin> so they should be different stations with different names you're saying?
20:39:17  <UukGoblin> and disjoint?
20:39:23  <andythenorth> disjoint
20:39:37  <UukGoblin> i.e. not created with ctrl
20:39:38  <andythenorth> and ideally separate routes
20:39:56  <UukGoblin> yeah, makes sense, but it's not very space-saving
20:40:03  <andythenorth> there is usually space
20:40:22  <andythenorth> or use escape depots
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20:40:29  <andythenorth> solutions are known
20:40:46  <andythenorth> many here
20:40:47  <UukGoblin> :-)
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20:41:08  <UukGoblin> ooh, interesting, didn't know that one
20:41:18  <UukGoblin> been looking mostly on
20:41:40  <Alberth> openttdcoop is where the 'professional builders' are :)
20:41:40  <UukGoblin> thanks, will check there
20:42:00  <andythenorth> you call V a professional? :o
20:42:01  <andythenorth> :P
20:42:06  <UukGoblin> that's basically what I've been looking for :-D
20:42:11  <Alberth> playing together filling entire maps :)
20:42:44  <Alberth> andythenorth: in building networks? yep
20:43:12  <Alberth> UukGoblin: if you like doing that, you can join
20:43:28  <andythenorth> they have prozone server or such?
20:43:29  <UukGoblin> I'm probably too newb at this point
20:43:48  <UukGoblin> but it looks like a great resource, that wiki :-)
20:44:06  <Alberth> don't get too scared of the insane parts :)
20:44:40  * andythenorth takes a more back-to-basics approach to networks :P
20:44:49  * andythenorth has a big distrust of complex things
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20:53:21  <Terkhen> good night
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21:21:50  <UukGoblin> would you guys recommend mixing grain+livestock wagons on a single train, or are 2 separate trains better?
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21:24:09  <frosch123> separate is easier, mixed is more fun :)
21:25:04  <UukGoblin> interesting :-) I find mixed easier, as I get less trains on my rails
21:25:23  <UukGoblin> but I may be wrong ;-)
21:25:33  <frosch123> but you cannot adjust the transport capacity independently (easily)
21:26:10  <UukGoblin> yeah
21:26:23  <UukGoblin> I tend to use "full load any cargo" and leave the other wagon or two empty
21:26:37  <UukGoblin> (and I try to balance numbers of wagons according to current farm production)
21:28:15  <Supercheese> Hmm, is there no way to disable the random placement of rocky tiles by OGFX+ Landscape?
21:28:48  <frosch123> it's a ottd feature
21:29:09  <Supercheese> OGFX+ also randomly places them as NewObjects
21:29:24  <frosch123> oh, no idea then
21:29:25  <Supercheese> count_per_map256
21:30:14  <Supercheese> they look really bad on water IMO
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21:48:17  <UukGoblin> I don't understand nor even :-) Why aren't they using one-way path signals like me? :-O
21:48:29  <UukGoblin> I forgot about all non-path-based signals as the path ones are just too awesome
21:48:54  <frosch123> path signals are easier, but they also have less options
21:49:05  <UukGoblin> (although I never really cared about priority)
21:50:03  <UukGoblin> why do these mainlines appear to have two-way signals rather than one-way?
21:51:16  <frosch123> they are block signals, not path signals
21:51:34  <UukGoblin> mrhm
21:51:39  <UukGoblin> ok, back to basics then I guess :-)
21:51:45  <frosch123> there is no difference between one-way block signals and one-way path signals as long as there are no junctions though
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22:04:06  <UukGoblin> also, why don't these mainlines have connections between tracks in the same direction?
22:04:27  <UukGoblin> when one train breaks down on a track, trains behind it should have a way to take it over
22:05:17  <Taede> coop tend to play with breakdowns off
22:05:27  <UukGoblin> oh... cheating ;-P
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22:06:35  <Taede> i'd advise you to download a game from the archive, see it all in action
22:07:51  <UukGoblin> good idea :-)
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22:26:32  <UukGoblin> lol, 1.7 has a coal mine with only tunnels underneath it :-)
22:26:39  <UukGoblin> where does it take its coal from? :-)
22:27:33  *** FLHerne_ is now known as FLHerne
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22:28:43  <Guest563> UukGoblin: The coop style is mostly about keeping everything (on the mainlines) moving continuously at the same speed and spacing
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22:30:38  <FLHerne> No breakdowns, no crossovers, equalised track lengths, prio (or even fiddlier things) on entry
22:31:07  <UukGoblin> yeah, figured
22:31:35  <UukGoblin> I just find "no breakdowns" a bit... unrealistic
22:31:59  <UukGoblin> especially after travelling to work by London tube
22:32:05  <FLHerne> Basic prios are definitely useful outside of coop, but I've never bothered with the extra-track variant
22:32:34  <FLHerne> OTTD's breakdown mechanics are so broken that the majority of people turn them off :P
22:32:51  <FLHerne> Something like 3/4 if forum polls are reliable (they aren't(
22:35:04  <FLHerne> My main dislike about breakdowns is that they're literally unpreventable, and the way the pathfinder behaves makes it very hard to mitigate them
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22:36:00  <FLHerne> So they discourage interesting, interconnected routes in favour of random detached bits of track/road everywhere, without adding any interesting gameplay themselves
22:37:04  <UukGoblin> hmm, yeah, that was my discovery too
22:37:18  <UukGoblin> that I should just not bother doing interesting networks and just create dedicated tracks for each route
22:37:51  <UukGoblin> so the problem is in the pathfinder
22:37:59  <FLHerne> So turn them off, and build interesting networks instead :P
22:38:25  <UukGoblin> I'll think about it ;-)
22:38:31  <FLHerne> The problem is in trains that break down completely at random, in some cases immediately after being serviced
22:38:31  <UukGoblin> (or maybe I should hack the pathfinder?)
22:39:05  <UukGoblin> you never know, there can always be a "person under the train" even just after servicing
22:39:15  <UukGoblin> or, London's favourite, a "signalling failure"
22:39:20  <FLHerne> You could increase the pf penalties for trains (not sure if there's a separate broken-vehicle penalty), but then you get different problems
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22:55:58  <Eddi|zuHause> <UukGoblin> when one train breaks down on a track, trains behind it should have a way to take it over <-- that is a nice theory, but it doesn't work in practice
22:56:18  <Eddi|zuHause> trains just block each other needlessly by changing lanes, when no train is broken down
22:57:04  <UukGoblin> yeah, seen that happen :-(
22:57:41  <Eddi|zuHause> only masochists play with breakdowns...
22:57:54  <Eddi|zuHause> ... because there are no useful mitigation techniques
22:58:02  <UukGoblin> maybe that's why no-one fixed the pathfinder ;-)
22:58:24  <UukGoblin> because everyone plays with breakdowns off
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23:06:49  <UukGoblin> so openttd's wiki says that path signals are basically superior (what I had thought), but coop wiki just uses regular signals most of the time :-S
23:07:10  <FLHerne> UukGoblin: Path signals are better *for the things path signals are superior for*
23:07:38  <UukGoblin> I'd need some sort of article to describe when the block signals are superior
23:07:57  <UukGoblin> because the block signal examples shown on openttd's wiki are just better solved with path signals
23:08:01  <FLHerne> If you're building a fairly simple network and just putting trains on it, path signals are easier
23:08:12  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:08:32  <FLHerne> Except that on plain blocks, they have exactly the same behaviour while using more CPU time and being ugly :P
23:08:47  <UukGoblin> yeah, for my single player game I'm using only path signals and so far I've been pretty happy with them. However this "priority" idea has me interested
23:09:05  <FLHerne> If you want to do strange logic with your trains, the entry signals are handy
23:09:36  <UukGoblin> my favourite would be to program the logic in something like lua ;-)
23:10:04  <UukGoblin> let me get back to the logic page of coop wiki
23:10:12  <glx> if programmation happen it will be in squirrel ;)
23:10:27  <FLHerne> I use a lot of basic prios
23:10:55  <UukGoblin> glx, not hear of it, but it looks nice
23:11:04  <UukGoblin> glx, as long as it's not Malbolge I'm happy :)
23:11:15  <FLHerne> The niftier variants are ugly and I'm a pseudo-realist player, so the coop lot can keep them :P
23:11:39  <glx> (squirrel is already used for AIs and game scripts)
23:12:00  <UukGoblin> FLHerne, ah, thanks for that article, I didn't see it
23:18:11  <UukGoblin> FLHerne, nah, the "Basic Priority" still isn't clear to me :-/ (because I don't understand pre-signals)
23:20:10  <FLHerne> An entry signal clears if any one of the exits to the block it's the entry to is clear
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23:21:06  <FLHerne> An exit signal is like a normal block signal, except for being seen as an exit by entry signals to the block it's the exit to
23:21:26  <UukGoblin> <- in here, is the train going from bottom-left to top-right supposed to have priority?
23:21:32  <FLHerne> A combo signal is an entry signal that's also an exit signal
23:21:52  <FLHerne> Yes
23:22:10  <FLHerne> It's already blocking the vertical train (note red signal there)
23:23:07  <UukGoblin> so what's causing this? I see... block signals on the regular track, then a... exit signal followed by a combo one?
23:23:16  <UukGoblin> (on the main track?)
23:23:29  <UukGoblin> (if I'm reading the thingies right)
23:23:46  <UukGoblin> and then block signals again after the junction
23:23:48  <FLHerne> The side of the exit signal away from camera (facing toward oncoming train) is red
23:23:55  <FLHerne> Because the train is in its block
23:24:30  <FLHerne> And the side of the combo signal away from the camera is red, because its only exit (the aforementioned red one) is red
23:24:52  <FLHerne> And since that's the only exit to the entry signal on the branch, that one is also red
23:25:33  <UukGoblin> right
23:26:14  <UukGoblin> so these two somehow affect the joining train's signal, even though it cannot physically pass through them?
23:26:19  <FLHerne> Essentially, the entry signal on the branch is 'looking back' down the mainline
23:27:02  <FLHerne> A block is just the contiguous bit of track between some signals, it doesn't have to actually make sense
23:27:32  <Eddi|zuHause> it basically is a giant abuse of a weird game mechanic
23:27:50  <UukGoblin> right :-)
23:28:01  <Eddi|zuHause> if you consider disabling breakdowns as cheating, this would definitely pass as cheating as well
23:28:06  <UukGoblin> Eddi|zuHause, so I'm OK to not understand from the wiki articles? ;-)
23:28:22  * FLHerne doodles
23:28:37  <UukGoblin> FLHerne, thanks a lot though, it's starting to make sense now :-)
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23:37:02  <FLHerne> Doodle
23:37:48  <FLHerne> NB that a block signal facing out of the block *isn't* an 'exit' to an entry signal
23:38:04  <FLHerne> Only an exit signal (or a combo one) is
23:39:18  <UukGoblin> thank you! :-)
23:39:34  <UukGoblin> yes, that picture confirms my suspicions :-)
23:40:32  <FLHerne> So the block propagates through the sides of the signals opposed to the direction of travel
23:40:53  <FLHerne> Gah, 'block' wrong/misleading word there
23:41:09  <FLHerne> Obstruction/presence/signal redness
23:41:55  <UukGoblin> yeah
23:42:14  <UukGoblin> it basically exploits the original "problem" with block signals for its advantage
23:42:29  <FLHerne> Hm, not really
23:42:45  <FLHerne> Well, maybe
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23:43:05  <UukGoblin>
23:43:09  <UukGoblin> ^ I mean this problem
23:43:48  <UukGoblin> I didn't know what constitutes a block, but now I slowly start getting it
23:43:59  <FLHerne> The problem with block signals is that they reserve (have the same effect as reserving, at least) the entire block, but in this case the 'entire block' is only a single bit of track
23:44:08  <UukGoblin> yeah
23:44:10  <FLHerne> So a path signal would reserve an entire block too
23:44:51  <FLHerne> It's exploiting the ability of presignals to relay information between blocks, and the existence of 2-way signals
23:45:03  <UukGoblin> :-)
23:45:27  <FLHerne> Neither of which is particularly a problem with block signals, althoug newbies are good at creating deadlocks with the latter
23:45:51  <Supercheese> Weird, the Squid Harbour Point utility vessel's purchase sprite does not match its in-game sprite
23:46:00  <Supercheese> in either of its two models, even
23:48:30  <Supercheese> ah, known issue
23:48:37  <Supercheese> nevermind then
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