Log for #openttd on 17th March 2015:
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01:58:18  <Supercheese> Hmm, I can't see your most recent attachments, supermop
01:58:27  <Supercheese> weird
01:58:36  <supermop> im re-uploading cropped ones 1 sec
01:58:58  <Supercheese> ok
02:02:34  <supermop> try now
02:03:06  <supermop> oops missed one
02:03:57  <supermop> ok
02:05:05  <supermop>
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03:53:18  <Pikkaphone> huh
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05:29:48  <supermop> yeah?
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07:26:09  <juzza1> supermop: have you tried those in-game? the tile edges don't look pixel precise, which might lead to visible edges between road pieces
07:26:29  <juzza1> could be something worth considering in the early stages if you want them to look perfect
07:27:12  <supermop> ive not coded anything
07:27:28  <supermop> but i was assuming i would do further masking in PS on the edges
07:27:37  <juzza1> ok
07:27:49  <supermop> that or underlay a groundsprite or something
07:27:55  <supermop> whatever is easiest
07:30:04  <supermop> one way, DNE, and roadworks sprites are all still missing too
07:30:34  <supermop> but i'd prefer to get something that looks bad in game first then refine while discussing with a coder
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10:19:20  <Celestar> good morning
10:19:59  <supermop> yo
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15:54:56  <Xaroth|Work> sometimes C annoys me beyond belief
16:14:48  <UukGoblin> use C++! :-]
16:15:23  <UukGoblin> can I order an aircraft to full load passengers but take only as much mail as there is?
16:16:48  <UukGoblin> Ideally I'd refit it to passengers-only, but that doesn't seem possible :-/
16:18:19  <UukGoblin> on another note, airports don't seem to work too well for beginning-phase moneymaking in FIRS
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16:19:41  <UukGoblin> I built 2 airports in Yeen and in White Harbor (in the "A Song of Ice and Fire" scenario), and got 5 aircraft, and they've not paid themselves out in 5 years
16:19:56  <UukGoblin> and I'm actually in more debt than I was
16:20:03  <Eddi|zuHause> UukGoblin: for aircraft, "full load" means passengers
16:20:11  <UukGoblin> Eddi|zuHause, ah, cool, thanks
16:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> or, "full load any"
16:20:44  <UukGoblin> yeah, "any" I think
16:21:01  <UukGoblin> (although I have a feeling that if there was a lot of mail waiting it'd take the mail and leave with non-full passengers... let's see)
16:21:37  <Eddi|zuHause> no, this is a special rule
16:21:42  <UukGoblin> kk
16:21:46  <Alberth> moin
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16:22:53  <UukGoblin> yeah these planes definitely won't pay themselves off
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16:26:03  <Xaroth|Work> UukGoblin: works a bit hard if you're trying to cffi into a kernel module
16:26:46  <UukGoblin> oh, you're hacking the kernel :-S
16:26:56  <Xaroth|Work> not really trying to hack into it
16:26:59  <Xaroth|Work> trying to get data from it
16:27:14  <Xaroth|Work> .. into python
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16:27:52  <Alberth> sell some of the aircraft
16:28:14  <UukGoblin> moin Alberth :-) I restarted, thinking of an alternative strategy
16:28:27  <UukGoblin> with 2 or 3 airplanes it'd take even longer to get any decent money
16:28:40  <UukGoblin> Xaroth|Work, so, what's so annoying about C? :-)
16:29:45  <Xaroth|Work> UukGoblin: ever tried cffi? :P
16:30:09  <UukGoblin> no, I don't do python ;-)
16:30:09  <Xaroth|Work> trying to get access to libzfs, without having to manually define what libzfs does
16:30:25  <Xaroth|Work> so, normally, you'd just #include <libzfs.h>
16:30:37  <Xaroth|Work> with python's cffi.. a bit different
16:30:42  <UukGoblin> hmm
16:30:48  <UukGoblin> yeah, I imagine
16:31:10  <UukGoblin> you've got to effectively interface one with the other manually
16:31:14  <UukGoblin> (I guess)
16:31:20  <Xaroth|Work> well, manually sucks :P
16:31:24  <Xaroth|Work> so i'm trying to automate it
16:31:28  <Xaroth|Work> but I think i got it to work
16:31:32  <UukGoblin> yeah, that sometimes works
16:31:36  <UukGoblin> oh, cool :-)
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16:31:45  <Xaroth|Work> parse header file, remove junk, throw it to cffi, get module
16:31:46  <UukGoblin> (just wait for your first segfault;-)
16:31:55  <Xaroth|Work> ... and then figure out why i get stupid undefined symbols
16:32:03  <UukGoblin> :-)
16:32:16  <Xaroth|Work> at this point i'm just blacklisting those functions from being loaded, seems to work.. until I need them
16:33:06  <UukGoblin> undefined symbols when linking?
16:33:39  <Xaroth|Work> libzfs_fru_* are all defined in the headers
16:34:01  <UukGoblin> ah, but you may be missing a shared (or static) object while linking
16:34:12  <Xaroth|Work> but aren't part of
16:34:15  <Xaroth|Work> or any of it's brethren
16:34:35  <Xaroth|Work> now I don't need fru stuff, so it's not a big deal
16:35:03  <Xaroth|Work> but it's one of those things that you want to tripple check that you're not fucking up :P
16:35:32  <UukGoblin> hmm, they're in libzfs_fru.c, should be added to
16:36:10  <UukGoblin> /o\
16:36:41  <Xaroth|Work> strings /lib/ | grep libzfs_fru
16:36:42  <Xaroth|Work> libzfs_fru_clear
16:36:50  <Xaroth|Work> (yes, that's the only one)
16:37:03  <UukGoblin> can also try nm /lib/
16:37:09  <UukGoblin> but that's... odd
16:37:22  <Xaroth|Work> so yeah
16:37:29  <Xaroth|Work> that took me a good 2 hours I'm never getting back :P
16:37:33  <Xaroth|Work> did manage to optimize some of my code a bit though :P
16:37:37  <UukGoblin> ;-)
16:37:59  <UukGoblin> that's not really a problem with the C language, but I can see how that can put you off ;-)
16:38:22  <Xaroth|Work> it doesn't put me off at all
16:38:33  <Xaroth|Work> but the errors you get are incredibly vague at that point
16:38:44  <Xaroth|Work> especially when you're used to the crapton of traceback data you get with python
16:39:00  <UukGoblin> nodnod
16:39:14  <UukGoblin> I remember getting nice stacktraces with some library or something in C++
16:39:19  <UukGoblin> however, not when linking
16:39:54  <UukGoblin> actually, I think the clang compiler may give you nicer compile errors
16:40:27  <UukGoblin> but all this sounds like something wasn't properly linked somewhere...
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17:15:30  <Samu> hi
17:16:11  <Samu> something strange happened with one of my stations rating
17:16:47  <Samu> rating for rubber went all the way down to 15% and yet there were trucks there full loading all the time
17:17:09  <Alberth> cargodist?
17:17:13  <Samu> yes
17:17:34  <Samu> and now it is raising again
17:17:40  <Alberth> got a big heap of rubber for other destinations?
17:17:54  <Samu> big heap?
17:18:05  <Alberth> lots of rubber lying at the station
17:18:20  <Samu> well, not exactly
17:18:29  <Samu> but there's tons of rubber being moved around
17:18:39  <Samu> two rubber plantations are producing 720 tonnes
17:18:49  <Samu> but both stations are saturated
17:18:57  <Alberth> with cargodist, a loading truck doesn't get cargo for other destinations than where it goes
17:19:27  <Samu> trucks load rubber from a plantation that produces 720/month
17:19:49  <Samu> then transfer it to a train station, which is also close to one other rubber producing 720/month
17:19:58  <Samu> both are saturated
17:20:11  <Alberth> right, trucks can handle 1440/month?
17:20:19  <Alberth> sounds quite a lot for trucks
17:21:03  <Samu> there are 37 trucks here, rating is now 67%
17:21:35  <Samu> let me show you savegam
17:22:11  <Alberth> I need a savegame of the non-working situation :)
17:23:19  <Samu> got one with it decreasing from 57 all the way down to 15%
17:23:24  <Samu> it's my oldest
17:25:43  <Terkhen> hello
17:25:49  <Samu> hi
17:25:49  <Alberth> hello Terkhen
17:26:09  <Samu> oh, it's decreasing again
17:26:17  <Samu> this is strange
17:26:34  <Alberth> so where is the rubber from the plantation going?
17:26:48  <Samu> to a factory via monorail
17:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: the rubber waiting at the train station will reduce the rating of the truck station where the rubber came from
17:27:19  <Samu>  onedrive is not uploading
17:27:29  <Eddi|zuHause> because they don't like their rubber waiting at stations
17:27:57  <Samu> at the train station the rating is also low, this is very strange
17:28:28  <Samu>!763&authkey=!AMS1SjqrD-1LLTM&ithint=file%2csav
17:28:41  <Samu> autosave2.sav
17:28:50  <Alberth> with low rating, you get less rubber, so you can catch up, when you have caught up, you get higher rating, more than you can cope with, rating goes down, ...  and so on
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17:31:22  <Samu> woah, i found something else
17:31:33  <Samu> this is so buggy
17:31:49  <Samu> there's 4000 tonnes of rubber at the factory station
17:31:54  <Samu> why wasn't it accepted :(
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17:33:47  <Samu> oh gosh
17:33:52  <Samu> I see what happened
17:34:00  <Samu> this Sanham Factory is very recent
17:34:11  <Samu> oh, Frinness Factory
17:34:54  <Samu> and it pops exactly near the two train stations which made them accept rubber
17:35:06  <Samu> oh, no, just one of them
17:35:23  <Samu> can you look at the savegame?
17:36:47  <Samu> the stations involved are in Stanstoke Common, Sanham, Teedfield and Frinness recently with its Factory
17:37:04  <Samu> it's that new Factory that's ruining this
17:38:48  <Alberth> looks like it
17:40:00  <Samu> darn Factories :P
17:41:10  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody said this game was going to be easy :p
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17:52:48  <Samu> not a bug, just a surprise factory
17:52:52  <Samu> very funny
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18:58:59  <chillcore> hello all
19:00:59  <Alberth> o/
19:01:25  <chillcore> hello Alberth o/
19:02:16  <Alberth> got your pm, looking at the code currently
19:02:40  <chillcore> I hope it was clear enough to understand the prob I am having?
19:02:57  <chillcore> also thanks and no rush ;)
19:03:11  <Alberth> not quite, but hopefully that will become more clear as I read more code :)
19:03:44  <chillcore> feel free to ask for clarifications as needed
19:04:15  <chillcore> documentation should be quite acurate but commit messages ay be a little off
19:04:25  <chillcore> may*
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19:06:01  <UukGoblin> at a transfer station, my trains transfer 150t of wood. A ship's capacity is 160t. Can I tell ships to go with 150t and don't wait for the extra 10?
19:06:16  <UukGoblin> "Load if available" would mean the train can leave empty, right?
19:06:40  <UukGoblin> and the conditional order jump won't work if the ship's current order (i.e. full load) is pending
19:06:49  <Wolf01> o/
19:07:27  <chillcore> Alberth: while testing you may want to kinda ignore the 'new game' behaviour of the guis ... I intend to revert that part to normal as much as possible, it just does not make sence there as it does in scenario editor
19:08:07  <chillcore> hey wolf01
19:08:12  <Alberth> hi hi
19:08:43  <Alberth> UukGoblin: you can't tell that
19:09:11  <UukGoblin> Alberth, :-(
19:09:25  <Alberth> maybe 'load if available', with a conditional order back to the dock, but it's ugly
19:09:33  <UukGoblin> yeah :-/
19:10:58  <Alberth> you can have 2 trains of 80t perhaps?
19:11:21  <Alberth> or just don't care :p
19:11:32  <UukGoblin> Alberth, not quite, capacity is 30t per wagon
19:11:54  <Alberth> when the ship leaves and the train arrives, you'll have stuff waiting at the dock anyway
19:12:26  <UukGoblin> yeah, but I'll get a smaller reward because it'll be waiting there for long
19:12:46  <chillcore> use 3 times 60 then, which will boost staion ratings a bit at the same time
19:12:48  <Alberth> ooooh, a zillion dollar minus 1 or so :)
19:12:56  <UukGoblin> btw, will "running" ships incur more maintenance cost than ships at the docks? If not then your "ugly" solution is actually good enough
19:13:15  <Alberth> depends on your ship set
19:13:26  <UukGoblin> it's an early stage of the game... I can't actually afford 3 trains yet ;-)
19:13:31  <Alberth> default doesn't make a difference
19:13:56  <UukGoblin> thanks
19:14:10  <Alberth> chillcore: 3*60 is 180 rather than 160 :p
19:14:27  <UukGoblin> speaking of that, where are ship settings? In vehicles there's only "trains" subgroup, and there's not much about ships elsewhere that I can find (other than vehicles)
19:14:53  <Alberth> actually don't know any ship set which does make a difference, but I'd consider that broken behaviour anyway :p
19:15:25  <UukGoblin> :-)
19:15:38  <Alberth> you can't set much with ships other than the path finder and rotation of 90 degrees or so
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19:19:21  <chillcore> yes alberth ... but after a few trains there will be a little bit of reserve waiting at the dock to let the next ship have a full load after just two trains arrive ;) anyhoo
19:20:20  <UukGoblin> chillcore, actually, you're right... I'll just skip the order manually for the first time and then it should have plenty spare
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19:20:55  <chillcore> you do not want to much spare as the goods will losesome value if waiting for too long
19:21:29  <Alberth> euhm, they do?
19:21:43  <Alberth> I thought they started counting after loading
19:21:44  <chillcore> usually I just want trains to move and do not care much for profit
19:23:14  <chillcore> I am pretty sure goods start losing value as soon as you pick them up and the loss continues during trransfer untill delivery
19:23:18  <chillcore> I could be wrong
19:24:49  <chillcore> but yeah not before first pickup they do not ... they just dissapear after two years IIRC
19:25:13  <UukGoblin> ASOIF is kinda cool. "First train arrives at Winterfell Woods!"
19:29:03  <chillcore> Also ... the Atari is selling Locomotion on steam now ... hmm
19:31:16  <TrueBrain> that means they might double their sales figures
19:31:22  <TrueBrain> up to a whopping 2!
19:31:25  <TrueBrain> *Trolls happily*
19:32:45  <chillcore> I am just curious what would happen if Chris Sawyer would put his new Transport Tycoon on it too ...
19:32:59  <TrueBrain> damn, never seen screenshots of Locomotion
19:33:02  <TrueBrain> but it looks a LOT like TT
19:33:07  <TrueBrain> including newspaper style etc :P
19:33:12  <chillcore> *Trolls along*
19:33:16  <chillcore> ye
19:33:24  <TrueBrain> it is only different gfx :P
19:33:35  <chillcore> eh nope it is the same
19:33:54  <TrueBrain> roads look different
19:34:25  <TrueBrain> the trailer on steam is just ..... lolz
19:34:29  <TrueBrain> looks like a CAM version
19:34:33  <TrueBrain> it is really really bad
19:34:43  <TrueBrain> 4:3
19:34:47  <TrueBrain> 240p or something
19:34:52  * chillcore has TT on iOS ... has beta tested and is mentioned in credits.
19:35:01  <TrueBrain> my condolunces
19:35:08  <chillcore> *end bragging*
19:35:09  <chillcore> lol
19:35:37  <TrueBrain> *ends trolling*
19:35:48  <TrueBrain> I am sure what I have said above will be used out of context sooner or later, so meh :P
19:35:49  <chillcore> it was fun testing and they were very swift to fix stuffs
19:35:59  <chillcore> for sure it will
19:36:04  <TrueBrain> I just cant see how these games are played on mobile platforms
19:36:06  <TrueBrain> it doesnt add up
19:36:19  <chillcore> it works suprisingly well to be honest
19:36:29  <TrueBrain> I am sure controls etc can be figured out
19:36:34  <TrueBrain> but the game itself ... it is just not meant for mobile platforms
19:36:35  <chillcore> huhu
19:36:40  <TrueBrain> I cant wrap my head around it
19:36:57  <chillcore> maps are not as big as openttd has them
19:36:59  <TrueBrain> same goes for games like Doom etc :P
19:37:28  <chillcore> ye 3D shooters are pretty bad to play on them
19:37:34  <chillcore> minecraft is soso
19:37:43  <TrueBrain> also a game I wouldnt play on mobile devices
19:37:48  <TrueBrain> it is not meant for htat .. it doesnt make sense ...
19:37:57  <TrueBrain> then again, I would not drive a smart either ..
19:38:00  <TrueBrain> it doesnt make sense :D
19:38:07  <chillcore> It was cheap and I had some credits left
19:38:31  <chillcore> also bought trainz but that is not so handy to control
19:38:45  <chillcore> all the rest is 'free' stuffs
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19:39:00  <chillcore> albeit full versions via appsgonefree
19:39:13  <TrueBrain> hehe
19:39:21  <chillcore> I refuse to invest in microtransaction garbage
19:39:32  <chillcore> or register for that matter
19:39:39  <TrueBrain> I like the free-to-play games, with MT
19:39:44  <TrueBrain> gives me options :D
19:39:48  <TrueBrain> as long as it is not P2W
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19:40:21  <andythenorth> o/
19:40:26  <chillcore> true there are many of those
19:40:37  <chillcore> \o
19:42:11  <chillcore> I have that openttd version too ... still stuck at  1.0.0 and the wrong palette is used
19:42:21  * andythenorth is having a not-understanding day
19:42:26  <TrueBrain> CATS
19:42:27  <andythenorth> wrt refits and also orders
19:42:37  <chillcore> meow
19:43:53  <TrueBrain> time to watch some tv
19:43:55  <TrueBrain> o/
19:44:03  <chillcore> see ya
19:44:37  <chillcore> treubrain before you go ... is there a way to change the pull location of existing hg checkouts without mesing up  the current checkout?
19:45:45  <chillcore> TrueBrain ^^^ darned spelling
19:46:48  <TrueBrain> ask Alberth
19:46:50  <TrueBrain> I dont do hg
19:46:54  <TrueBrain> git ftw!
19:47:26  <chillcore> git has it advantages yes
19:47:42  <chillcore> anyhoo enjoy your tele
19:47:52  <TrueBrain> will do!
19:47:58  <Alberth> mostly our sysadmin knows what to do there :)
19:48:07  <chillcore> moehahahaha
19:48:39  <chillcore> I can test later, I do not have that many checkouts yet on this HDD
19:49:01  <Alberth> I also just discovered that hg now uses 'trunk' branch for svn revisions
19:49:10  <chillcore> 'only' 11
19:49:20  <chillcore> yes it does
19:49:40  <chillcore> 22028 has default still
19:49:41  <Alberth> yeah, tb will fix that in a few days
19:50:07  <chillcore> it is fixed I believe ... it syncs itself if I understood correctly
19:50:12  <Alberth> it was caused by the updates he did
19:50:18  <Xaroth|Work> o/
19:50:21  <chillcore> on purpose yes?
19:50:27  <Alberth> hihi Xaroth|Work
19:50:38  <Wolf01> frosch123:
19:50:39  <Alberth> the updates were on purpose yes :p
19:50:48  <Alberth> the change wasn't :)
19:50:59  <Xaroth|Work> sup Alberth
19:51:20  <chillcore> ah I thought that change too
19:51:22  <Alberth> although it seems to reflect the current ideas of the hg devs
19:51:38  <frosch123> Wolf01: interesting :)
19:51:48  <Alberth> the simplest work around is to do a  hg up trunk
19:52:02  <Wolf01> I always had the suspect :P
19:52:12  <Alberth> but expect that it will change again, so better not do that on too many repos
19:53:15  <chillcore> thanks for the hint alberth ... for the moment the old repos location still works so there is no real rush
19:54:41  <chillcore> I just know it can be changed because of that almost booboo I made once
19:55:19  <chillcore> just not sure how the code will react when pulling from a different location all of a sudden, although the base is the same
19:56:06  <chillcore> workbench tends to crash sometimes ...
19:57:46  <chillcore> if only I knew how to reproduce it reliably I could report
19:57:56  <Xaroth|Work> UukGoblin: for me it's more the confusion on how something that is defined in the headers, can actually not show up in the module
19:58:06  <Xaroth|Work> that, to me, makes little sense.. though I'm not -that- well versed in C
20:00:05  *** Celestar [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:00:37  <UukGoblin> Xaroth|Work, hmm. Headers usually only "declare" functions, they don't define them
20:01:16  <UukGoblin> a function definition gets compiled into a shared (or static) object, and then all the functions from various objects are linked together
20:01:45  <UukGoblin> in C you usually don't include the function's body, only the header that declares it - it's the linker that later joins everything up
20:01:52  <Xaroth|Work> << but it's actually implemented
20:01:58  <Xaroth|Work> might be the visibility of it
20:02:13  <UukGoblin> yeah, I saw, not sure what's going on in the zfs case
20:02:33  <UukGoblin> it doesn't end up in the .so, which means it didn't get linked properly
20:03:13  <UukGoblin> Xaroth|Work, was HAVE_LIBTOPO defined during libzfs's compile time?
20:03:37  <Xaroth|Work> no idea, using ubuntu's pre-built binaries
20:03:40  <Xaroth|Work> but that might be it
20:04:05  <UukGoblin> Xaroth|Work, actually, it probably wasn't. Because the only function that you see in the .so, "libzfs_fru_clear", is the one defined when HAVE_LIBTOPO is undefed
20:04:14  <UukGoblin> so, yeah, that's probably it :-)
20:04:24  <Xaroth|Work> that explains a lot
20:05:02  <Xaroth|Work> you just cleared up a puzzle that kept me going for hours, thanks :D
20:05:16  <UukGoblin> yw :-) thanks for all the help with openttd too, guys :-)
20:05:18  <Xaroth|Work> now to find a sane way to actually implement that on the python side
20:06:00  <UukGoblin> Xaroth|Work, hmm. You could dlopen() the .so and see what functions are defined inside of it (with dlsym())
20:06:26  <UukGoblin> if you don't see all the libzfs_fru_*, then raise an exception in python code trying to access them
20:06:59  <Xaroth|Work> not sure if python-cffi has functionality for that, but will have a look
20:07:29  *** CrackedP0t [] has joined #openttd
20:07:32  <UukGoblin> dlopen() and dlsym() are conformant to POSIX.1-2001
20:07:39  <UukGoblin> (at least according to the manpage I'm reading)
20:08:46  <UukGoblin> but yeah, finding which is being used might be tricky
20:09:05  <Xaroth|Work> yeah, but python-cffi has to have the implementation for it, if it doesn't have any easy wrapper around dlsym there's not much use in making my own
20:09:22  <Xaroth|Work> seeing the cost of trying to figure all that out outweigh the loss of a handfull not-so-useful functions
20:09:45  <Alberth> chillcore: what's these "backup" parameters about?
20:09:55  <Xaroth|Work> worst-case I can dlopen it and try to access them, I -think- python-cffi tries to do a dlsym at that point
20:09:55  <UukGoblin> oh, I assumed it let you write some C code
20:10:16  <Xaroth|Work> python-cffi is all about creating a thin wrapper around C libraries so youc an use them from python
20:10:28  <Alberth> chillcore: it seems weird to save them in settings
20:10:28  <Xaroth|Work> i.e. I can hook into libzfs so I can get zfs' information out of it, from within python
20:10:45  <UukGoblin> yeah, but with, say perl XS, you actually wrote some funky C code to help the framework glue things up together
20:11:01  <UukGoblin> oh, then that's probably the way to go :-)
20:11:15  <Xaroth|Work> I probably could, but at that point it's cost/benefit
20:11:20  <UukGoblin> if you can catch the "undefined symbol" exception then yeah, profit
20:12:22  <chillcore> Alberth: ye I understandwhat you mean. I was thinking of having them in a seperate file later on as custom presets kinda like newgrf presets?
20:12:53  <Alberth> those are in openttd.cfg afaik
20:12:59  *** Supercheese [] has joined #openttd
20:13:28  <Xaroth|Work> there's a thousand things still to implement, I'm long glad I can now work around having to package different versions' header info for 3 different platforms and 5 different versions of libzfs :P
20:13:41  <Xaroth|Work> when most of the important stuff didn't really change
20:13:57  <Alberth> chillcore: well, I sort of worked through the first 3 patches, not sure if there is any point in continuing now
20:14:14  <Alberth> as the changes will ripple through the entire queue
20:14:29  <chillcore> Alberth: maybe in a seperate file ... if I figure out how to do that, and also would be better done before being commited to trunk to avoid having to use afterload.cpp
20:14:46  <chillcore> yes thenewgrf configs are in the normal config file
20:14:54  <Alberth> don't know, depends on their purpose
20:15:17  <chillcore> also, true the changes will ripple throughout the rest of the patches but functionality should not change much?
20:15:27  <Alberth> maybe the name "_backup" is just wrong
20:15:57  <chillcore> for now I have a live custom setting and presets are loaded into that
20:16:02  <Alberth> just looked at the code structure
20:16:18  <chillcore> yes the backup code is to become write to file ... if I manage to do that
20:16:46  <chillcore> I just wanted to get things working for now ...
20:16:55  <Alberth> well, some presets would be fine to have, I can imagine to add them to openttd.cfg
20:17:21  <Alberth> but don't know
20:18:09  <chillcore> we have hotkeys in a seperate file ... and I would not mind seeing the newgrf presets go in their own file too.
20:18:22  <chillcore> or would that become too many config files?
20:18:30  <chillcore> I am not sure on that
20:18:49  <chillcore> it feels like the right thing to do
20:20:32  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
20:20:34  * chillcore mentions writing to files and string manipulation is another one of those things I skipped the exercises on mostly
20:20:59  <chillcore> after this patch I am going to hit my books a bit harder ...
20:21:32  <Alberth> use a hammer? :p
20:21:36  <chillcore> hehe
20:21:40  <Alberth> sent you PMs
20:22:18  <chillcore> It is just that I have so much fun with plenty of things and then I get frustrated with the 'simple' stuffs and say balls to it
20:22:40  <chillcore> the luxury of not being a proffesional programmer :P
20:22:55  <chillcore> checking PMs ...
20:23:06  <Alberth> I mostly pointed in the direction where I think is the better solution, but don't know the details either
20:23:34  <Alberth> if you hit a problem or a wall, just ask, and we'll see if we can convince the code to co-operate :)
20:23:40  *** CrackedP0t [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:24:28  <Alberth> ha ha, yeah, unfortunately, I cannot just start writing code without bothering about things that will happen tomorrow in the next step
20:24:39  <chillcore> will do, thanks for your help so far ... also sssst but I do not know all the details neither
20:25:12  <chillcore> eg. that desertline needing to be seperated from snowline is a prob I just discovered
20:25:13  <Alberth> so I always set it up properly immediately, which is a lot of work at times
20:25:18  <chillcore> last week or so
20:25:44  <Alberth> hmm, sounds useful, as desert and snow don't go well together :)
20:26:23  <Alberth> although.... it can get quite cold at night in the desert :p
20:26:42  <chillcore> ye that is why I have the patches on top of 200 to be integrated afterwards, to get it right the first time ... and then I still end up rewriting all of it 4 times
20:27:09  <Alberth> that's only 1 tome more than I do :)
20:27:14  <Alberth> *time
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20:27:43  <chillcore> I have to say that all sand dunes look pretty nice, unfortunatly no tropical forest means broken chains too
20:27:51  *** JacobD88 [] has joined #openttd
20:28:25  <chillcore> but the same can hapen with snowline ... I stil am convinced that the current trunk implemantation is no good
20:28:48  <Alberth> I am not surprised, there is a lot broken in trunk :p
20:28:53  <chillcore> it being bases on the max height setting instead of generated height at mapgen
20:29:23  <chillcore> ye ... I hope I can fix most of it befre 1.5 but it is not looking very good at this point in time
20:29:24  <Alberth> hmm, yeah, smallmap colours are weird too
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20:29:48  <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: so what if you terraform the topmost tile? or what if you start with a flat map in scenario editor?
20:30:11  <chillcore> same as now ... don't change it
20:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause> but you need a way to specify it beforehand
20:30:29  <Alberth> chillcore: I won't do worldgen stuff before 1.5
20:30:43  <chillcore> eg. if top tile is 100 snowline gets 25 eddi
20:30:56  <chillcore> or rather the desertline
20:31:10  <chillcore> andthen if you want to o lower then so ne it
20:31:13  <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: there's variable snowline in NewGRFs
20:31:21  <chillcore> then so be it*
20:31:37  <Eddi|zuHause> it needs a point where 0% and 100% snow are
20:31:37  <chillcore> yes I know we can leave that as is
20:31:45  <chillcore> true
20:31:51  <chillcore> as it is now
20:31:58  <chillcore> was rather
20:32:02  <Eddi|zuHause> so what is the problem?
20:32:28  <chillcore> if I now set snowline at 50 ad the generate deset at 25 there is no trpical forest
20:32:30  <chillcore> at all
20:32:42  <chillcore> damn typing ... sorry
20:32:51  <chillcore> typing a bit slower
20:33:13  <Eddi|zuHause> so your problem is not how it works, but that you can enter nonsensical settings?
20:33:19  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27191 branches/1.5/ (2015-03-17 21:33:12 +0100 )
20:33:22  <DorpsGek> [1.5] -Branch: Let's get serious.
20:33:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: now you're free to go :p
20:33:50  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27192 /trunk (15 files in 12 dirs) (2015-03-17 21:33:44 +0100 )
20:33:51  <DorpsGek> -Change: heading for 1.6 now
20:33:53  <chillcore> a non sensical setting that breaks chains ... yes
20:34:23  <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: you can't really prevent that.
20:34:25  <chillcore> I am going to read these PMs real quick ... brb
20:34:32  <chillcore> true eddi
20:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> like full FIRS on a 64x64 map will also break chains
20:34:45  <frosch123> Alberth: sorry to spoil your excuses :p
20:34:53  <Eddi|zuHause> because you just can't cram that many industries into it
20:34:53  <Alberth> :D
20:35:10  <andythenorth> bloody FIRS
20:35:25  <Alberth> hi hi andy
20:36:28  <chillcore> hehe frosch :P
20:36:39  <andythenorth> I am really perplexed by this
20:36:53  <andythenorth> usually Wally makes complete sense, but I can’t understand that post at all
20:37:01  <andythenorth> and I had 7 hours sleep too
20:37:31  *** JacobD88 [] has quit [Quit: JacobD88]
20:37:52  <andythenorth> do I miss something?  refit has nothing to do with non-stop or not
20:37:56  <andythenorth> AIUI
20:38:53  <Alberth> would need change of the newgrf specs anyway
20:39:10  <frosch123> hmm, i forgot some version number somewhere
20:43:26  *** CrackedP0t [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:44:05  <andythenorth> hey it’s HEQS!
20:44:11  <chillcore> Alberth: thank you for commenting thse patches
20:44:11  <andythenorth> remember HEQS?
20:44:41  <Alberth> yw, I hope I didn't cause too much chaos :)
20:44:51  <chillcore> Alberth: the alignment of colons is right after a few patches ... it makes the chhanges in late rpatches smaller
20:45:02  <chillcore> no not at all ;)
20:45:54  <Alberth> we don't align colons I think
20:45:59  <chillcore> I can not add the custom settings to the existing presets array without making it modifiable
20:46:03  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27193 trunk/src/ai/ai_info.cpp (2015-03-17 21:45:57 +0100 )
20:46:04  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r27192): Incomplete copy/paste.
20:46:49  <Alberth> I suggested to add the default custom values
20:47:24  <chillcore> ahlike that ... ye that makes sense
20:47:34  <Alberth> or at least I thought I did :)
20:47:57  <chillcore> maybe a struct would work better then an array indeed for the custom ones
20:49:05  <chillcore> re dafaults: ye I read too fast :P
20:51:32  <chillcore> as for trailing whitespace ... ye I need to check the patch for those but I believe there is a script mentioned on the coding style wiki page
20:51:58  <Alberth> I configured my editor to show them
20:52:16  <Alberth> as well as displaying TAB and spaces differently
20:52:30  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o]
20:53:41  <chillcore> the re-use of 'tgen_smoothness' that setting existed already and is saved as difficulty setting in older savegames ... changing that would require messing with afterload?
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20:54:47  <Alberth> you just extended the value range by 1, I think adding a new case for the new range is ok
20:54:57  <Alberth> don't have much experience there though
20:55:34  <chillcore> the rest is obvious makes sense and gives me some stuff to do ... yay and thanks.
20:55:35  <Alberth> old savegames don't have the new value, and the old values keep the same meaning
20:56:09  <Alberth> no need to change values  in afterload  (it would be x = x;   :)  )
20:56:22  *** tokai [] has quit []
20:57:27  <chillcore> I see ...
20:58:34  <Alberth> you can write the code, but the compiler will probably optimize it away :)
20:58:44  <Samu> i just found an exploit with transfers :(
20:59:11  <chillcore> most likely yes
21:00:29  <Samu> hard to describe it, maybe I'll make a video
21:00:59  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has joined #openttd
21:01:02  <Samu> it happens when a truck is transfering cargo to a station
21:01:04  <chillcore> Alberth: most of your comments apply to the rest of the patches too so indeed little point in going through all of them right now
21:01:30  <Samu> it transfers 5 cargo units at a time
21:01:34  <Alberth> it felt that way
21:01:58  <Samu> between these 5/10/15/etc... tell it to go to depot
21:02:15  <Samu> for each time it drops 5 cargo, it gets a high transfer value
21:02:46  <Samu> i got a truck with £20k right now, doing that
21:03:20  <Alberth> ok, but it's all virtual money right?
21:03:31  <Samu> i am unsure of that
21:03:42  <Alberth> so when you deliver the cargo, do you get a large negative sum?
21:04:03  <Samu> that would be the train
21:04:10  <Samu> i have to check this better
21:04:29  <chillcore> Alberth: maybe if you have some free time you can playtest some and see if you find stuffs that could be improved gui / usability wise, I lack some feedback in that department, except for my own vision of where I want to end up that is
21:05:05  <Alberth> still sounds like a bug, but if you don't get more real money than you would normally, it's not really exploitable
21:05:30  <chillcore> Alberth: by that I mean ... for the rest of the patches you'd be repeating yourself mostly as I have my style
21:05:46  *** efess [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:05:52  <chillcore> anyhoo thanks a bunch for your time
21:05:57  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
21:06:00  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
21:06:01  <michi_cc> Samu: If, with transfer value, you mean the sum in the vehicle details window, then it is indeed purely virtual.
21:06:35  <Samu> profit for this truck last year was £11,544
21:06:45  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:06:47  <Samu> for the other truck which didn't use this exploit, it was...
21:06:57  <Samu> £1,202
21:07:08  <Samu> train profit, I am unsure
21:07:13  <Samu> must test it
21:07:58  *** Klanticus [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:08:42  <Samu> trying a new game in single player to check this
21:09:19  <Alberth> chillcore: I am not really sure what I would like to have wrt gui usage
21:11:12  <michi_cc> Samu: Even more easy: is the money shown on the map yellow or green? If it is yellow, you haven't actually made money yet.
21:11:30  <chillcore> Alberth: that makes two of us :P ... the gui is mostly to avoid having to recompile between making changes to the values
21:11:37  <Samu> it's yellow, but the truck had a last yeart of £11k
21:11:45  <Samu> makes me wonder
21:12:07  <chillcore> and it may be usefulll for peeps wanting to play araund that can/will not compile
21:12:12  <Alberth> chillcore: in your slider test thingie,  int32 x = (tgen_smoothness_scale_slider * (r.right - r.left) / 429467295);   looks wrong, dividing by UINT32_MAX  will make x quite close to 0,which is what your slider does iirc
21:12:38  <Alberth> (oh, and yeah, use UINT{16,32}_MAX instead of random large numbers :)
21:12:45  <michi_cc> About the wrong thing though. All figures in the vehicle window are purely accounting and have no direct relation to the finance report.
21:12:51  <chillcore> for trunk just patch 10 with some values 'could' do
21:13:23  <chillcore> hmm except for a second array for smaller maps maybe
21:13:55  <chillcore> although I could just reduce the first two params (not scale) to 1 codewise too
21:14:57  *** Belugas [] has quit [Quit: On snow, everyone can follow your traces]
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21:14:59  <chillcore> Alberth: Ye magic numbers need to be removed still and replaced with their min max counterparts from genworld.h
21:15:15  <Alberth> :)
21:15:18  <chillcore> for testing having numbers there was/is easier
21:15:37  <chillcore> less recompilation of files ;)
21:15:38  <Alberth> fair enough :)
21:16:30  <chillcore> I still have that int32 overflowing too ... while it should not due to clamping
21:16:45  <chillcore> it never ends ... hahahaha
21:17:07  <Alberth> makes sense, 42... doesn't fit in int32
21:17:57  <Alberth> maybe the slider value is too big?
21:18:08  <Alberth> ie tgen_smoothness_scale_slider
21:18:10  <supermop> hi
21:18:17  <Alberth> hi supermop
21:18:58  *** tokai [] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o]
21:19:01  <Alberth> andythenorth: yep, tram looks HEQs-ish
21:19:25  <Alberth> I may even have a previous picture of it :p
21:20:00  <Samu> testing in single player, train had a Cost when delivering to factory
21:20:04  <chillcore> Alberth: possisbly yes ... I left the adjustments too int32 as a seperate pacth ... perhaps uint16 is good enough but being able to put negative values did a lot of good; needs moar testing
21:20:15  <Samu> truck gets a high profit though
21:20:26  <Samu> train gets a negative profit
21:20:51  <Alberth> ok, not exploitable thus
21:20:58  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
21:21:01  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
21:21:09  <Alberth> as the sum of both stays the same
21:21:34  <Alberth> it's just how the sum is split between the truck and the train
21:21:43  <Samu> train income says £799
21:21:57  <chillcore> if you do not like that samu change the transfer payout percentage to be higher
21:21:59  <Samu> but his profit is -£3,293
21:22:19  <Alberth> depends on running costs and so on
21:22:53  <Samu> hmm
21:23:01  <Alberth> not easy to track back to profit for the cargo
21:23:33  * andythenorth -> bed
21:23:34  *** andythenorth [] has left #openttd []
21:23:42  <Alberth> night andy
21:26:36  *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd []
21:30:56  <chillcore> fuu noisy neigbours ... sleeping all flipping day and renovating after dark ...
21:30:57  <UukGoblin> goddammit. I've built 2 separate stations, one for farmsup pickup, the other for engsup pickup, both from the same machine shop. Now a train got an "implicit" order when it left a depot and is picking up farmsup from the engsup station...
21:31:11  <chillcore> I'll have my revene after saving some moneyz ... grrrrr
21:31:21  <Eddi|zuHause> chillcore: over here, you can call the police on people making noises after 22:00
21:31:21  <UukGoblin> how will the engsup station now know not to get farmsup from the shop? :-/
21:32:11  <Eddi|zuHause> UukGoblin: make the train orders "non-stop"
21:32:24  <Eddi|zuHause> UukGoblin: then the station will forget about the wrong cargo after about 2 years
21:32:32  <UukGoblin> 2 years!
21:32:33  <UukGoblin> ;-)
21:32:37  <UukGoblin> ok I guess that's good enough
21:32:48  <UukGoblin> thanks :-)
21:33:25  <chillcore> eddi: ye here too ... but ... they just moved in one the one side so ... if it continues for longer then a week or two then I will have a talksie with them
21:33:27  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't make it non-stop, then the next train going to that depot will try to load there again, screwing it up over and over
21:33:48  <chillcore> its not like they are drilling or so ... more silent nailing stuffs to the walls or something
21:36:32  <chillcore> supporting a bit now gives me the chance to be noisy too form time to time :P
21:38:14  <UukGoblin> Eddi|zuHause, thanks. Yeah but this time the implicit order only came about because I reversed the first train and made it ignore signals
21:38:24  <UukGoblin> (turned out the depot wasn't placed too well)
21:38:30  <UukGoblin> so should be good now :-)
21:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause> UukGoblin: implicit orders just record where the train went. they don't steer the train
21:39:05  <Eddi|zuHause> UukGoblin: using "non-stop" will prevent implicit orders from showing up
21:39:17  <Eddi|zuHause> regardless where the train goes
21:39:27  <supermop> i don't understand why anyone ever uses stopping orders
21:39:35  <Samu> woah, train delivered a cost of 31k
21:39:38  <Samu> lol
21:39:40  <supermop> in what case would you not want non-stop
21:40:26  <chillcore> single line with 6 stations ... make it go to first and last and be done with it ;)
21:40:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: well, all the money that you "cheated" for the truck, the train loses 1:1
21:41:13  <UukGoblin> Eddi|zuHause, yup, makes sense
21:41:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: this unload-depot-unload trick used to work on deliveries, too, but it was fixed years ago.
21:41:40  <UukGoblin> Eddi|zuHause, I'm just saying, the train shouldn't go through the wrong station at all in this case (it only went there accidentally because I faffed about)
21:42:03  <UukGoblin> I was just worried the station would start picking up the wrong cargo, but it's good to know it'll go away after 2 years
21:42:03  <chillcore> supermop: that is provided the train has nowhere else too go but via the middle 4 stations
21:42:17  <Eddi|zuHause> UukGoblin: just because things *shouldn't* happen, doesn't mean they never do happen :p
21:42:41  <UukGoblin> Eddi|zuHause, basically if I add a non-stop order now, it will mean the train will be going via the wrong spot ;-)
21:42:53  <supermop> but then you can't expand the line in the future
21:43:03  <Eddi|zuHause> UukGoblin: why?
21:43:37  <Samu> income was still better with the exploit, £3,929 vs £3,627 normal transfer
21:43:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: that can be normal fluctuations
21:44:10  <Samu> normal transfer is faster
21:44:15  <Samu> hmm
21:44:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: probably completely unrelated
21:44:46  <UukGoblin> Eddi|zuHause, because it only got that implicit order accidentally (due to me reversing and ignoring signals manually)
21:44:50  <chillcore> supermop: yes and no ... depends how you build your networks really ... I build so vehicles can go everywhere from evrywhere so I do not use 'em much
21:45:29  <Samu> normal transfer would pay off in the long run, unless I have uber gosu micro
21:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause> UukGoblin: like i said, the implicit order doesn't tell the train to go there
21:46:30  <Samu> then the trick would maybe pay off
21:46:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: there are more useful exploits in this game...
21:46:41  <UukGoblin> Eddi|zuHause, yup :-) it's all good now ;-)
21:48:59  <Samu> got to try a long distance transfer
21:49:07  <Samu> see if the trick pays off or not
21:50:58  <chillcore> there is no trick there samu ... some vehicles in the chain get overpayed (or not enough) and then the last vehicle pays the bill or makes huge profits it should not get
21:51:12  <chillcore> as the money goes to thesame company it does not matter much
21:51:47  <chillcore> set transfer payout at 100 % if you want ... it will make no diff to your balance in the end
21:52:28  <chillcore> except for minor fluctuations that is ... delays, breakdowns, longer/shorter loading times and so on
21:54:37  <chillcore> I myself find 75% most enjoyable
21:58:58  <Samu> £11,354 - transfer cheating
21:59:33  <chillcore> you should write an anti-cheat patch ... :P
21:59:51  <Samu> £21,464 - normal transfer
22:00:01  <Samu> okay, so it doesn't pay off after all
22:02:59  <Samu> £8,498 - transfer cheating 2nd time
22:03:31  <chillcore> hmm ... dur dur de comprenure, comme d'habitude
22:03:53  <chillcore> :P
22:03:59  <Samu> £15,371 - normal transfer
22:04:32  <Samu> oh well, it was fun to see trucks with £24k though
22:05:01  <TrueBrain> what is this weird thing in front of those numbers?
22:05:03  <TrueBrain> can I eat them?
22:06:11  <Samu> half the income was a bit unexpected though
22:06:22  <Samu> i was hoping at least nearly same income
22:08:54  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27194 /branches/1.5 (bin/baseset/opntitle.dat src/misc_gui.cpp) (2015-03-17 23:08:48 +0100 )
22:08:55  <DorpsGek> [1.5] -Change: New titlegame (Emperor Jake)
22:09:13  <Samu> emperor jake wins?
22:09:18  <Samu> well, okay
22:09:21  <chillcore> I am not sure what part of 'you have to add the whole chain of vehicle incomes together to get meaningfull data' you missed above samu
22:09:37  <frosch123> did i commit the wrong one? :p
22:09:57  <chillcore> woopsie ...
22:10:08  <Samu> this was the income i was seeing at finances window
22:10:25  <chillcore> yes samu from one vehicle in the chain ...
22:10:40  <Samu> truck gets nothing
22:10:59  <chillcore> oh my
22:11:26  <chillcore> train gets too much then maybe yes no perhaps?
22:11:39  <chillcore> if the last vehicle is a train that is
22:11:54  <Samu> i made 2 tests
22:12:04  <Samu> first test was truck transfer to train, short distance
22:12:18  <chillcore> yes transfer
22:12:21  <Samu> 2nd test, train goes a very loong distance transfers to another train
22:12:29  <chillcore> that means two vehicles handle the same cargo
22:12:43  <chillcore> cargo payment is devided
22:12:57  <Samu> these last resusts were for the 2nd test, sorry about the confusion
22:13:01  <chillcore> but at transfer the code does not yet know how far the packets still have to travel
22:13:23  <chillcore> you are not confusing me at all :P
22:13:35  <chillcore> I tested cargodist much
22:13:38  <Samu> the income is for the last vehicle
22:13:40  <Wolf01> 'night
22:13:45  <chillcore> night wolf
22:13:47  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:13:53  <Samu> i made sure i was getting only one income per year
22:14:32  <Samu> at finances window i get the real income
22:14:41  <Samu> isn't it?
22:14:55  <chillcore> ye and was the travel distance and delivery speed the same in both tests... in both cases
22:15:04  <chillcore> also did the year not skip in the meantime
22:15:20  <Samu> there were breakdowns
22:15:27  <Samu> that was a variable
22:15:31  * chillcore mumbles something about maintenance costs at new year
22:16:08  <Samu> i looked at train income, not total expenses
22:16:35  <chillcore> ye did you look at the dates too?
22:17:15  <Samu> I'm confused
22:17:58  <chillcore> the same trip starting in march and ending in june will not look the same as a trip starting in november and ending in febrauri in the finances gui
22:18:14  <chillcore> befause the taxman comes jan 1
22:18:43  <chillcore> and maintenance personal wants to be payed that date too
22:19:16  <Samu> why would that matter if I'm only looking at income
22:19:25  <Samu> i'm not looking at train running costs
22:19:31  <chillcore> exactly
22:19:36  <chillcore> you should
22:20:00  <Samu> ok, let me test again
22:20:20  <Samu> no breakdowns
22:25:07  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
22:31:10  <Samu> £74,584 - no cheating
22:32:07  <chillcore> and added running cost to that?
22:33:39  <Samu> £73,217 - cheating
22:33:43  <Samu> ah now it makes more sense
22:33:57  <UukGoblin> how do I autoreplace a train that doesn't have a depot in its orders?
22:34:16  <UukGoblin> (having a "service if needed" in orders also doesn't cause the train to go there and get upgraded)
22:34:29  <chillcore> send it to depot manually UukGoblin
22:34:32  <Samu> running costs should be equal on both tests
22:34:40  <UukGoblin> chillcore, ouch ;-)
22:35:11  <Samu> -£4,240 - cheating running cost
22:35:13  <chillcore> vehicles follow orders so ...
22:35:42  <UukGoblin> chillcore, yeah but there's a lot of 'em
22:35:46  <chillcore> if evenually it goes because of the 'service if needed' setting it will be replaced then
22:35:49  <UukGoblin> and I'd like to disrupt the services as little as possible
22:36:01  <Samu> £-4,240 - no cheating running cost
22:36:12  <UukGoblin> it won't ever need service as I took the advice and switched breakage off
22:36:18  <Samu> my tests are complete
22:36:33  <chillcore> I always have a depot order even if playing without breakdowns UukGoblin, for that reason
22:36:56  <Supercheese> vehicles should head for autoreplacement automatically
22:37:03  <UukGoblin> chillcore, so your trains always stop at a depot?
22:37:03  <Supercheese> no manual sending to depot needed
22:37:15  <Supercheese> even if they don't normally stop at any depot
22:37:18  <UukGoblin> hmm.
22:37:21  <Supercheese> autoRenew however
22:37:26  <Supercheese> different story
22:37:44  <chillcore> yeah usually at the beginning or end of route I have a depot order
22:37:44  <UukGoblin> it's replacement, I want to upgrade the engine
22:37:52  <Supercheese> yeah it should handle that automagically
22:37:58  <chillcore> or middle if my network has one there already
22:37:59  <Supercheese> just hit replace and wait
22:38:22  <Supercheese> as long as there is a depot somewhere along its route, it will head for it with minimal disruption of schedul
22:38:25  <Supercheese> schedule*
22:38:55  <UukGoblin> yeah, I wonder if there is ;-)
22:38:55  <Supercheese> only problem you might get is if there is no depot anywhere along its route
22:39:10  <UukGoblin> that might actually be the problem. :-)
22:39:17  <Supercheese> if not, just build one and it will find it
22:39:19  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
22:39:23  <Supercheese> no extra action needed
22:39:26  <UukGoblin> yup, OK, confirmed, it's happening allright
22:39:31  <Supercheese> :)
22:40:16  <chillcore> but I often end up with steam somewhere near the year 3000 too ... just because 'choo choo' :P
22:40:25  <Supercheese> steam ÃŒber alles
22:40:30  <Samu> hmm so all this means the last year on vehicle information window is a lie
22:40:35  <UukGoblin> :-)
22:40:43  <Samu> last year profit
22:43:58  <chillcore>
22:44:04  <chillcore> I can sense it ...
22:44:56  * Supercheese actually plays a game of OTTD
22:46:09  <chillcore> I would not call it a lie samu ... more you not understanding all that needs to be understood
22:48:16  <chillcore> do you have inflation on? do you have a year of recession happening? ... etc etc etc
22:49:33  <Samu> no
22:49:44  <Samu> oh i like bjork
22:51:00  <chillcore> for a decent test you need to make a savegame and test with the same starting dates, same vehicles, make sure that the total trip incuding transfers takes exactly the same time, and more
22:51:35  <Samu> same time for transfers isn't quite possible
22:51:50  <Samu> there was a few days difference
22:52:47  <chillcore> cool me too samu ... I landed you on her own channel, so enjoy
22:53:34  <chillcore> also 4 days diff on a 40 days trip is 10% faster delivery ...
22:54:20  <Supercheese> Aaaaargh
22:54:20  <chillcore> thus higher pay for the same cargo and 10% less running cost too
22:54:26  <Supercheese> accidentally bulldozed a river
22:54:34  <Supercheese> no way to get it back.....
22:54:54  <Supercheese> wellp, other than the scenario editor
22:55:05  <chillcore> scenario editor ye
22:55:30  <Supercheese> there really really should be an in-game way to fix that
22:55:43  <chillcore> samu almost had a patch but he got distracted by something else ...
22:55:45  <Supercheese> "shit, accidentally blew up the river"
22:55:59  <Supercheese> what else can you do but .sav -> .scn, fix, .scn -> .sav
22:56:05  <Supercheese> very annoying process
22:56:30  <Samu> lol
22:56:37  <Samu> the "almost" part
22:56:39  <chillcore> nothing at the moment, build a little piece of nice looking canal?
22:56:56  <Supercheese> canal is not nice looking
22:56:58  <Supercheese> at all
22:57:00  <Supercheese> that's the problem
22:57:52  <Samu> it was a long distance, started at early january, final delivery was in december
22:57:53  <Supercheese> ah well, it's annoying but at least not insurmountable
22:58:14  <Samu> at least 450 tiles away
22:58:53  <chillcore> ye samu almost ... all you had to do was loop over the map at gamestart and store those river tiles so they could be restored automagically (except for when the tile was terraformed)
22:59:30  <chillcore> then you started doing 4 things at once (still no clue what for) and you got lost in details
22:59:35  <chillcore> anyhoo
23:00:24  <chillcore> you are doing the same thing now?
23:01:23  <Samu> i couldn't do it without doing the others too
23:02:12  <chillcore> it could be there are still bugsies but cargodist took a long time to finish and was tested by a huge number of peeps
23:02:31  <Samu> I thought I had to free up the bit first
23:02:52  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
23:03:04  <UukGoblin> Eddi|zuHause, right, 2 years have now definitely passed, but the station is still receiving the wrong cargo, even though I've never picked it up since
23:03:23  <UukGoblin> there's 200 crates waiting, they slowly expire, but the station keeps getting more and more (effectively stealing it from the nearby correct station)
23:03:41  <Eddi|zuHause> UukGoblin: if you're playing 1.4.4, that feature was not implemented yet
23:03:54  <UukGoblin> Eddi|zuHause, oh. That's the debian latest :-S
23:04:11  <UukGoblin> so yeah, that's what I'm playing
23:04:32  <Eddi|zuHause> how do "debian" and "latest" even fit in the same sentence? :p
23:04:43  <UukGoblin> ugh
23:04:46  <Samu> let me look at my topic, I nearly forgot what were my plans
23:05:01  <UukGoblin> Eddi|zuHause, it's actually the latest stable version too
23:05:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
23:05:27  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
23:05:39  <UukGoblin> ugh, savefiles are binary.. :-S any chance I could edit them?
23:05:58  <Eddi|zuHause> not really
23:05:59  <UukGoblin> I'll just scrap the station I guess :-(
23:06:05  <Supercheese> save files are compressed by default IIRC
23:06:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is the easiest
23:06:28  <Eddi|zuHause> build a new station in its place (with ctrl pressed), and reroute the trains
23:06:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the old station sign will decay in about a month
23:15:07  <Samu> okay, i see why I had to do 4 things at once
23:15:18  <chillcore> <Supercheese> "shit, accidentally blew up the river" what else can you do but .sav -> .scn, fix, .scn -> .sav very annoying process   <- 'someone' mentioned a few days back it would be nice to be able to load/save normal saves too in scenario editor ... needs patch however and most patchers are quite occupied already as it is. ;)
23:15:44  <Samu> i was planning for the future :o
23:16:40  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
23:16:45  <chillcore> yes indeed, instead of just focussing on (re)storing river tiles first and then moving on to the future
23:17:33  <Samu> the future would screw me
23:17:35  <Samu> :p
23:17:52  <chillcore> no your impatience will :P
23:18:49  <Samu> so, where would i put the 1-bit canal think?
23:18:53  <Samu> at m6?
23:19:01  <Samu> thing*
23:19:23  <chillcore> the patches I am able to write now I could not have done in 2008, just because of not enough knowledge on important details I picked up while doing 'simpler' stuffs
23:20:00  <chillcore> yeah you just needed 1 free bit to store a 1 or 0 in ... no shuffling needed
23:21:45  <Samu> then in the future i'd have a big mess for ownership bits splattered around
23:22:27  <Samu> focusing only on canal on river tile
23:22:37  <chillcore> nah you just had 1 more bit to shuffle around, that is all
23:22:54  <chillcore> and ther you go again ... canal and river is two things ... grrrrrr
23:23:14  <Samu> how?
23:23:28  <Samu> canal on river means there's a river when you destroy the canal
23:23:30  <chillcore> a river is not a canal is not sea
23:24:03  <chillcore> you don't need a river to build a canal do you?
23:24:34  <Samu> no, but the game let's me build a canal on a river tile
23:24:42  <chillcore> and?
23:24:56  <Samu> if you destroy the canal, it won't revert to river
23:25:03  <Samu> becomes a bare land tile
23:25:30  <chillcore> yes ... it would be nice if it became river again ... but only if there was a river first
23:25:41  <chillcore> is that really so hard to understand?
23:25:50  <Samu> we're talking about the same thing
23:25:56  <chillcore> no not at all
23:25:56  <Samu> canal on river
23:26:01  <chillcore> ye then yes
23:26:27  <chillcore> still not the same
23:26:58  * ST2 grabs some popcorns
23:27:01  <ST2> xD
23:27:03  <ST2> hi :)
23:27:04  <Samu> I don't get it
23:27:06  <chillcore> if there was no river to start with it should become river?
23:27:08  <Samu> hey
23:27:15  <chillcore> I know samu
23:27:36  * chillcore has cookies to munch on
23:27:42  <Samu> if there was no river, then canal on river would turn = false
23:27:48  <Samu> something like that
23:27:57  <Samu> destroying it would check that condition
23:28:12  <Samu> becomes bare land
23:28:22  *** gelignite [] has quit [Quit:]
23:29:20  <chillcore> ye and for that you store only river tiles and don't give a damn about canals ... at first
23:29:28  <chillcore> anyhoo
23:30:33  *** JacobD88 [] has joined #openttd
23:30:55  <Samu> okay, i name it RebuildRiver
23:31:08  <Samu> is that just because of the name?
23:31:24  <chillcore> o/ ST2
23:31:41  *** JacobD88 [] has quit []
23:32:22  <chillcore> samu ... do something simpler first ;)
23:32:51  <Samu> I'm not doing anything now
23:33:17  <Samu> there's nothing else that can be built on rivers that don't currently revert correctly into a river
23:33:36  <Samu> I don't understand what you mean
23:34:28  <Samu> dock on river, destroy dock, river is restored
23:34:44  <Samu> ship depot on river, destroy ship depot, river is restored
23:34:45  <chillcore> to put it simple ... as long you do not store rivertiles there is nothing to restore neither
23:35:20  <chillcore> read: nothing to check against
23:35:43  *** flipFLOPS [] has joined #openttd
23:36:11  <chillcore> also you need to grasp the basics of programming ... we can not teach you the concept of asserts and stuffs
23:36:51  <Samu> canal on river, canal is destroyed, river is restored?
23:37:47  <chillcore> river is destroyed code does not know there was a river ... boom
23:38:07  *** glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
23:39:39  <Samu> destroying a river, becomes bare land
23:39:54  <Samu> i just don't get what you're saying
23:39:55  <chillcore> it is like people trying to explain to me how pointers or string manipulation work ... I do not get the basics so there is little use of them trying to explain it to me
23:40:36  <chillcore> I need to get my hands dirty with simple exercises and only then their feedback becomes usefull to me
23:40:52  <chillcore> more importantly while they help me their time is not wasted
23:41:27  <chillcore> AFTER I get the basics not before will their time not be wasted
23:42:23  <chillcore> ofcourse they can write code for me and sure enough it will work ... but what will I have learned?
23:42:27  <Samu> canal and river are different, they build on top of the other
23:42:46  <chillcore> how to ask other peeps to do stuffs for me and nothing else?
23:42:58  <Samu> or actually, just the canal
23:43:27  <Samu> okay, I give up, I don't get what you're trying to tell me
23:43:38  <Samu> canals aren't like the other structures
23:43:43  <chillcore> they are very different ... rivers are generated on mapgen, canals are buildable wherever and whenever
23:43:51  <Samu> canal is a waterclass
23:44:17  <Samu> they're not in the same group as a dock
23:44:38  <Samu> meh, I stop
23:46:15  <chillcore> ye better do something else first samu, there is a reason I do not touch bits or as little as possible
23:47:45  <Samu> I need 1 bit for this canal on river thing, that's all I know
23:47:58  <Samu> if this is wrong
23:48:07  <Samu> then .... I don't know why
23:49:35  <chillcore> yes 1 bit that is set to 1 or 0 at gamestart, then later whena canl is removed on a tile check the value
23:49:49  <chillcore> o is bare land, 1 is restore river
23:50:03  <chillcore> that is it it stops there
23:50:14  <chillcore> for this restore river tile patch
23:51:08  <chillcore> you make it way too complicated with I don't know what kind of details that do not matter for this
23:52:55  <chillcore> ^^^ this is what went wrong when you tried ... not needed details and you got frustrated ...
23:53:56  <chillcore> not ponting fingers or anything ... I get frustrated too sometimes but I move on and go back later to try again
23:54:00  <Samu> I'm gonna try that again tomorrow, but without the "details"
23:55:19  <chillcore> that is a good idea ... there is code in afterload.cpp that loops over the map that you can re-use to give you a head start ;)
23:56:08  <Samu> those "details" you mention were the owners.
23:56:32  <chillcore> and for god sake don't try to work around asserts, they are there for a reason, if you hit one you are doing it wrong
23:56:52  <Samu> ok, only 1 owner then
23:57:07  <Samu> or in other words, I am not touching that part
23:57:42  <Samu> in the future, maybe... I'll think on finding a way to store 2 owners, this was the "details"
23:58:08  <Samu> the reason I was trying to shrink them from 5 to 4 bits
23:58:26  <chillcore> don't worry about them yet ... store the bit first and worry about restoration once you have that part working
23:59:08  <Samu> this means m1 bit 4 can't be used for CanalOnRiver flag :(
23:59:16  <Samu> so be it
23:59:50  <chillcore> that's the spirit :P

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