Log for #openttd on 6th April 2015:
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00:10:16  <Samu> nop, can't do it as water either
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00:11:58  <Samu> i need a check that matches the variable _local_company = owner
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00:16:07  <Samu> _current_company != OWNER_TOWN && _current_company != OWNER_NONE && owner != self  -> pass for funding on competitor canal, but fail for demolishing canal of the competitor
00:16:18  <Samu> can't have it both ways
00:16:55  <Supercheese> Well, got a seaplane port looking good graphically, now I just have to figure out how the heck to stop it from being flooded when placed in the ocean...
00:17:23  <Supercheese> could use canals, but they ugly
00:17:46  <Supercheese> I hear rumor that newobjects can work but I have tried several and none seem to stop flooding....
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01:39:40  <Supercheese> Wow, what on earth is special about the water tile from the Seaplane Airport grf that makes it not get flooded?
01:39:52  <Supercheese> I cannot make any object resist flooding like it does
01:44:07  <Supercheese> Ah, I see: (GetWaterClass(tile) == WATER_CLASS_SEA) ? FLOOD_ACTIVE : FLOOD_NONE;
01:44:32  <Supercheese> I will make note of this on the wiki, it is not at all obvious
01:45:18  <Supercheese> case MP_OBJECT: returns the above... hmm
01:46:14  <Supercheese> no wait that still does not answer the question
01:48:25  <Supercheese> Aha, the object must be allowed to be on both land and water
01:53:14  <Supercheese> Huh, this phenomenon is probably unintended behavior
01:53:59  <supermop> hmm
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01:57:56  <supermop> crashed rhino while mdelling pub roof
02:00:50  <supermop> all of my flashing and coping gone....
02:01:04  <Supercheese> sounds like what happened in Glasgow, although instead of a rhino it was a helicopter
02:01:17  <supermop> heh
02:01:20  <Supercheese> crashed through the pub roof
02:01:41  <supermop> ive got pretty sidetracked here...
02:04:31  <supermop> think up bad pun in irc, think up further worse pun based off the first,
02:04:48  <supermop> decide 2nd pun makes a good pub name,
02:05:13  <supermop> spend hours making a pub sign and logo for said pub
02:05:46  <supermop> realize that rendering pub sign on its own looks a bit odd, need a wall or something for context,
02:06:06  <supermop> realize wall of station doesn't look right for a pub sign
02:06:36  <supermop> start modelling basic pub to put sign on
02:06:56  <supermop> realize pub doesnt look right with built in wall materials
02:07:25  <supermop> start working on creating own materials for plaster, tile, and painted brick,
02:07:41  <supermop> realize roof looks too flat,
02:07:56  <supermop> look at pub roofs in google maps
02:08:27  <supermop> crash rhino while modelling the flashing covering joints in roof....
02:08:38  <supermop> thats my last 20 hours
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02:15:22  <supermop> what are you doing with the seaplane airport?
02:27:37  <supermop> ok i was able to redo all that flashing more quickly this time
02:27:44  <supermop> and with simpler geometry
02:45:49  <Supercheese> I'm doing this with seaplane airport:
02:46:00  <Supercheese> Hoping to get it fully functional
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02:46:16  <Supercheese> currently everything works but it gets flooded
02:47:25  <Supercheese> obviously combining grfs there, SNO, marico, and OGFX+ airports
02:52:18  <supermop> looks nice
02:52:36  <supermop> could use a different hanger
02:52:58  <supermop> what about half of an ogfx ship depot as seaplane hanger?
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04:14:03  <Supercheese> perhaps
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04:19:26  <supermop> hmm a whole tile for the beer garden of a pub is a bit excessive
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04:47:44  <chillcore> ggod morning interwebz
04:48:37  <chillcore>
04:53:27  <supermop> yo
04:54:05  <chillcore> hello supermop o/
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04:59:10  <supermop> i've been modelling pub parts all day
04:59:44  <chillcore> I saw the logs ;)
05:00:06  <chillcore> you'll figure it out for sure
05:02:04  <chillcore> there should be a flag to mark stuffs to not flood ...
05:02:22  <chillcore> but not sure how to do it
05:02:53  <chillcore> what I do know isthat you can not change machine states via NewGRF
05:03:07  <chillcore> so your kinda stuck with current behaviour
05:03:16  <chillcore> flightpatchs I mean
05:04:20  <chillcore> so as long as you keep hangar, runways and heliports in the right spot relative to station tile things are fine and you can do whatever
05:05:44  <chillcore> eg. airports can have 10 runways but only the 'normal' ones will be used
05:07:50  <chillcore> I don't see that changing anytime soon, it is something complicated to get right and not for the faint of heart :P
05:07:55  <chillcore> lots of magic nrs
05:10:44  <chillcore> did you see Kamnet's reply?
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05:11:30  <chillcore> It seems you need object tiles with 'water tile' class?
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05:21:43  <supermop> you talking to Supercheese ?
05:22:13  <chillcore> just talking ... XD
05:22:17  <Supercheese> I got things working now
05:22:18  <supermop> im going to model some kegs to sit out back of the pub
05:22:19  <chillcore> checking logs ...
05:22:31  <Supercheese> I cheated and modified the source a tiny bit
05:22:35  <Supercheese> solved my flooding problem
05:22:44  <Supercheese> the main .exe source that is
05:23:04  <chillcore> supermop: seems like I was yes hehe
05:23:36  <Supercheese> now I have nice looking seaports, but sadly I'm relying on a patched version
05:23:58  <Supercheese> ah well, at least my Vintage Commuter can be submitted to  OGFX+ when it's ready
05:24:45  <chillcore> supercheese: this is a mere temp workaround, either use water tiles or submit a patch?
05:25:11  <chillcore> the good thing is that you can continue working ... Yay
05:25:11  <Supercheese> the water tiles work, but I wanted to hook up dock tiles to make it look good like in the image I linked
05:25:22  <Supercheese> and the tiles I was using caused flooding
05:25:43  <chillcore> gotcha
05:25:47  <Supercheese> so now my is fully functional
05:26:06  <Supercheese> with a ~6 character patch to the program source
05:26:26  <Supercheese> I counted, it's 4 characters
05:26:31  <Supercheese> :P
05:26:46  <chillcore> XD
05:26:49  <Supercheese> from FLOOD_ACTIVE to FLOOD_PASSIVE
05:27:03  <Supercheese> amazing what swapping a prefix can do
05:27:33  <chillcore> nice ... but does it break other stuffs now?
05:27:38  <Supercheese> but I change even a single character and it still takes me three minutes to compile o_o
05:28:10  <chillcore> ye depending what file you change more or less files need recompling too
05:28:46  <chillcore> changing settings.ini or lang files triggers the largest amount of them
05:29:04  <chillcore> besides files like tile_map.h and the likes
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05:29:42  <chillcore> o/ Kamnet
05:29:57  <kamnet> Chillcore! Long time no chat!
05:30:58  <supermop> whoa
05:31:02  <supermop> kamnet:
05:31:13  <kamnet> And Supermop? Hello!
05:31:15  <supermop> never seen you in here man
05:31:33  <kamnet> It's been a few years since I've visited. I keep forgetting :D
05:31:42  <chillcore> kamnet: true, hope you're doing fine ;)
05:32:21  <kamnet> Well, I'm alive. Good enough, I guess!
05:32:54  <Supercheese> Certainly been a-postin' on the forums
05:33:18  <kamnet> Yeah, I keep busy there. Too bad it's not a paid job. HAH!
05:33:23  <Supercheese> I got the seaplane port working now
05:33:41  <Supercheese> took me a while to figure out the magic settings for newobjects to resist flooding
05:34:01  <Supercheese> turns out all along my seagulls would have worked just as well
05:34:30  <Supercheese> and it's probably unintended behavior for the game engine
05:34:47  <chillcore> kamnet: did you like my noise? I really should export a newer version ... I had a listen recently on this pc and without my sound blaster live behind it it sounds bad ... just bad. XD
05:34:56  <kamnet> WOOHOO! Yeah it's a nifty GRF. Not quite wild about the stylings of it, I've wanted to revamp it for quite awhile, but not really had the time.
05:35:07  <kamnet> yeah, probably, but it's neat pushing the limits of the game.
05:35:36  <kamnet> LOL chill, I didn't think it sounded bad. I may just have an appreciation of General MIDI more than others thogh.
05:35:53  <chillcore> that may be the difference yes ...
05:36:05  <chillcore> hardware midi rocks
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05:37:21  <chillcore> anyhoo I have a better version and wilsend you a pm when I find some time to boot my other pc ;)
05:37:55  <kamnet> I'm actually kidna excited. My oldest son said he'd make his summertime project building a whole new music set just for me. He's a budding jazz enthusiast and has been listening to a lot of Herbie Hancock's Cantaloupe Island, same music that inspired the original TTD soundtrack.
05:38:10  <chillcore> nice
05:39:17  <chillcore> did you get to hear the new arrangement yet that comes with that new version of Transport Tycoon?
05:39:34  <kamnet> Yeah, not quite wild about it.
05:39:55  <chillcore> I kkinda like the freestyle of it but true it is different
05:40:00  <supermop> this keg is maybe the most geometrically complex thing i've modeled  in a while
05:40:24  <Supercheese> with or without beer goggles on? ;)
05:40:33  <kamnet> It seems like it's more noise than necessary.
05:41:48  <chillcore> Supercheese: :P
05:45:03  <chillcore> kamnet: because John Broomhall, instead of taking full control and trying to keep it, he just said here is the file do your thing the way in the way you feel like doing it
05:45:10  <chillcore> I do understand your feeling
05:45:20  <chillcore> it is different
05:45:35  <kamnet> Perhaps my boy can one-up it all and do the original proud then. :D
05:45:48  <chillcore> hehe
05:45:56  <supermop> i guess a keg is really useful - if i want some somewhat procedural generated pubs can sprinkle those in back, and they can sit on station platforms if alcohol cargo is waiting
05:46:03  <Supercheese> New TTD mixes? Sounds neat!
05:46:03  <chillcore> looking forward to that ;)
05:46:11  <supermop> kamnet: sounds neat
05:46:26  <supermop> i just want to hear the tto title music all the time
05:47:04  <Supercheese> I had exclusively TTD ringtones back when all the cell phones could play were midi files
05:47:30  <kamnet> I think it might be my last one, though. It's been extremely hard the last few years to find quality pieces to borrow. Nobody wants to work on new MIDI stuff, at least not without being paid. I wish I could afford to pay them, but there's no money here. :(
05:47:33  <Supercheese> well, until I added a few Nintendo songs
05:48:17  <kamnet> So unless my kids take up the passion and start making new works because they love it, that may be done. And of course after the poll I took on the forum, it seems like none of them are entirely popular anymore.
05:48:40  <kamnet> Looking for a new OpenTTD project to keep me busy.
05:49:50  <chillcore> yeah doing midi manually is hard work
05:50:59  <chillcore> hmm maybe I could ask my father if he has something laying around :)
05:52:08  <chillcore> not sure if he keeps his messing about or not
05:52:28  <chillcore> I remember him doing midi in hex ...
05:52:49  <kamnet> I still have two sets I want to try to get out. A Mars theme and Halloween theme.
05:53:20  <chillcore> cool
05:54:27  <supermop> was about to start in on the outdor tables and chairs when i realized this pub still has no windows or doors
05:54:35  <kamnet> DOH
05:54:40  <chillcore> hehe
05:55:07  <supermop> need to go buy groceries too
05:55:46  <chillcore> <Supercheese> so now my is fully functional   <- looks nice
05:56:01  <supermop> maybe ill walk to the store and look at pub windows on the way - going for an 1870s style
05:56:03  <Supercheese> Combining grfs, of course
05:56:20  <Supercheese> I'm borrowing marico's delicious objects
05:56:31  <chillcore> huhu
05:56:47  <kamnet> What's the building out in the water?
05:56:57  <Supercheese> The hangar
05:57:12  <kamnet> Oh did you put it back in?
05:57:32  <Supercheese> yes, there are plenty of similar looking floating hangars on the lake nearby
05:57:42  <Supercheese> and we only have like two or three seaplanes
05:58:24  <Supercheese> well, floatplanes rather
05:58:33  <kamnet> If you can draw that in all four directions, good chance of getting it into OpenGFX+ Airplanes! :D
05:59:02  <Supercheese> it's already a patched version of OGFX+ Airports
05:59:10  <kamnet> Oh?
05:59:16  <Supercheese> but the problem is to get everything perfect I rely on a patched version of OTTD
05:59:34  <Supercheese> those docks can't be nicely hooked up to the marico quays in trunk
05:59:40  <Supercheese> else the airport floods
06:00:26  <Supercheese> in any event, I need to polish the Vintage Commuter airports first
06:02:04  <kamnet> Probably needs some custom graphics work to make it look nice.
06:02:19  <supermop> i placed all of the kegs in places where you can't see them in dimetric...
06:02:27  <supermop> ok brb
06:28:24  <chillcore> I should have another look at this permanent rivers patch ...
06:28:49  <kamnet> permanent rivers?
06:28:59  <chillcore> when you build something on a canal it forgets the river flag is lost
06:29:07  <chillcore> ye samu his idea kinda
06:29:25  <chillcore> but he has trouble doing one thing in one patch
06:29:43  <chillcore> the idea is that rivers cannever be destroyed
06:30:14  <chillcore> not terraformed, not bulldozed, only have stuff build on it
06:30:34  <chillcore> and when that stuff is removed the river is back where it was
06:31:08  <chillcore> it is a great idea ... but as you can see in his topic ...
06:31:54  <chillcore> there is no talking to this kid he just keeps going, heading for disaster :P
06:32:03  <kamnet> Oh oh that's right
06:32:14  <chillcore> like that couple that drove of that bridge recently ... so sad
06:33:00  <chillcore> but yeah, his other ideas might work ... not saying that
06:33:11  <chillcore> it is just the way he does it
06:33:14  <chillcore> oh well
06:33:36  <chillcore> me too has to learn the hard way sometimes :P
06:35:27  <chillcore> funny story ... when I was young I thought having one brake on my bicycle  was good enough
06:35:35  <kamnet> *chuckle*
06:35:48  <chillcore> so one day I go out at night without lights because ... it was not far
06:35:57  <kamnet> I do look forward to some expanded and improved river play.
06:36:11  <chillcore> so this cop comes chasing me and blocks me ...
06:37:01  <chillcore> like he litterally stops 5 meters in front of me and with his front wheel against the curb
06:37:11  <chillcore> guess what happened
06:37:21  <chillcore> I pull that brake like ad and it snaps
06:37:26  <chillcore> moeahahahahah
06:37:33  <kamnet> you went end over teakettle?
06:37:55  <chillcore> nope I plowed into him :P
06:38:21  <chillcore> "You mofo why you block me like that?"
06:38:45  <chillcore> just as he took out his notepad he gets an urgent call ... see ya
06:38:54  <chillcore> scracthes and all he was gone
06:38:58  <chillcore> lucky me
06:39:10  <chillcore> but it could have neded worse
06:39:10  <kamnet> What a jerk
06:39:31  <chillcore> they are thought that way ...
06:39:52  <chillcore> don't leave room for running
06:40:02  <chillcore> not that I was going to but yeah
06:40:32  <chillcore> never got ticket for no lights
06:41:08  <chillcore> last thing he said was "you'r lucky and get some flipping light on that thing"
06:41:30  <chillcore> kids ...
06:41:34  <chillcore> XD
06:41:54  <kamnet> lol
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06:43:25  <chillcore> but yeah rivers that stay helps a bit against land leveing idiots
06:43:46  <chillcore> also you can not rebuild them in normal games
06:43:46  <kamnet> plus makes more interesting landscape
06:43:55  <kamnet> That's something else that should change
06:44:06  <Alberth> moin
06:44:15  <kamnet> Morning to you Alberth
06:44:16  <chillcore> ye ... I found a neat setting ... lenght 50 and the other setting on 5 in the config ;)
06:44:38  <chillcore> morning Alberth o/
06:44:46  <Alberth> making rivers more irritating eh? :)
06:44:56  <chillcore> yeah ...
06:45:35  <chillcore> I got what samu has but with only 8 lines ... except for a string and an include
06:46:03  <chillcore> it is still his code mind you  ...
06:46:18  <chillcore> without fluff
06:46:19  <Alberth> not adding owner stuff saves a lot of room :)
06:46:38  <chillcore> ye docks having two owners is beyond me
06:47:20  <chillcore> he'll figure itout someday ... I hope
06:47:48  <kamnet> I've got a revamp of a scenario I'm working on, trying to make some new rivers. One major one at sea level through the length of the map, and then needing to make rivers that feed into it. They'll be at least two tiles wide because I wanna facilitate more boat traffic and trade.
06:48:23  <chillcore> cindini?
06:48:24  <Alberth> sounds nice
06:49:22  <kamnet> No not Cindini. It's already got a ton of sea-level rivers to manipulate.
06:50:06  <chillcore> ok
06:50:07  <kamnet> It's a revamp of my "Birth of an Empire" scenario with a few more tweaked settings, and made on OpenTTD 1.5.0
06:52:23  <kamnet> I'm stuck though because the land generation patches that are used in an earlier version of the 2013 Spring Patch Pack isn't the same as in later packs, and I like it better than what 1.5.0 generates. I can't export either the scenario to OpenTTD 1.5.0 because it's incompatible, and can't use the heightmap either because the importer still only recognizes grayscale levels.
06:53:06  <chillcore> what do you mean only greascale levels?
06:53:13  <chillcore> gery*
06:53:18  <chillcore> damned
06:53:22  <chillcore> spelling*
06:53:25  <kamnet> recognizes 16 grayscale levels.
06:53:33  <chillcore> it does way more then that
06:53:48  <kamnet> Did that change?
06:53:53  <chillcore> change badly implemented max_height setting
06:53:55  <Alberth> /me hopes so
06:54:24  <chillcore> thanks for reminding me of that one ...
06:54:48  <chillcore> the best result for now is to have it at the same value it was when exorting the map
06:55:20  <chillcore> it has changed yes but the heightmap does not kow what it was before
06:55:39  <chillcore> but that is yet something else
06:55:46  <kamnet> So if I export the heightmap in 2013SPP, I can import it into 1.5.0 as long as I make sure to keep the same max height setting?
06:55:53  <chillcore> yes
06:56:00  <kamnet> awwwwwww sweet!
06:56:11  <chillcore> dont go more then *2 or /2
06:56:23  <chillcore> you can fiddle a bit but exact the same is best
06:56:40  <chillcore> I just never change that setting from 255
06:56:45  <chillcore> where it should be
06:56:48  <chillcore> IMHO
06:57:23  <chillcore> this breaks tropical badly but I have a patch for that one
06:57:26  <kamnet> i had been setting my height level at 60 when generating a new map.
06:57:46  <chillcore> leave it at 255 then you get  1 / 1  results
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06:58:17  <chillcore> but yeah at 60 to import
06:58:57  <chillcore> then change it to 255 and export again
06:59:34  <chillcore> I really need to get rid of that setting
06:59:48  <chillcore> I never had it and everything was fine
07:00:37  <chillcore> except for a few things I was not aware of
07:01:17  <chillcore> it just does not mmake sencse having it at 255 and then generating maps that are flat as a pancake
07:01:58  <chillcore> just allow moreheightlevels and done should be 'it'
07:02:13  <chillcore> WIP
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07:04:04  <andythenorth> o/
07:06:05  <kamnet> Good morning
07:09:22  <Alberth> \o
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07:18:04  <andythenorth> bob
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07:18:16  * andythenorth is kicking goals
07:20:15  <Supercheese> better than kicking gaols, I suppose
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07:21:55  <kamnet> Grumble, I don't think I'm exporting the height map right. Importing it into 1.5.0 is completely killing it. :-(
07:22:51  <chillcore> hmm ... phone ...
07:30:16  <andythenorth> hmm
07:30:25  <andythenorth> Pikka’s AI has grown a 17k city
07:30:34  <andythenorth> covers about 10% of my map
07:30:38  <Pikka> huzzah
07:30:39  <andythenorth> how civil of it
07:30:51  <andythenorth> oh there’s one next door to it
07:30:52  <andythenorth> 23k
07:31:05  <Pikka> very civil
07:31:18  <kamnet> Alberth, so what I proposed to Planetmaker was to essentially replace Grfcrawler with a new wiki where initial article titles are "GRFID: <whatever>", and then a standard template for some basic information about a NewGRF. Then visitors or whoever anages the NewGRF can come along and add to it, use it as the homepage, publish documentation, link to websites discussion, whatever.
07:31:20  <Pikka> is it aircrafting or just bussing?
07:31:48  <supermop> would these kegs be useful to other, as renders or as 3d blocks?
07:31:48  <andythenorth> just bussing
07:32:10  <Alberth> kamnet: sounds nice
07:32:59  <Alberth> note that grfcrawler is owned by orudge, afaik, but we have a similar problem with the bananas front-end, that needs revamping, but nobody knows how/what to do
07:33:50  <Alberth> it needs someone designing some pages
07:34:18  <kamnet> I thought eis_os owned grfcrawler?
07:34:34  <andythenorth> Alberth: banaramas is quite easy imo
07:34:35  <Alberth> oh, very possible, at least it's not us
07:34:49  <andythenorth> I just lack motivation to learn how to build a django dev env
07:35:02  <andythenorth> too many unfinished newgrfs
07:35:22  <Alberth> some mockup-ishes would be a big step already imho
07:35:24  <kamnet> I haven't had motiviation to build web pages in ages. *sigh* I'm so out of practice now.
07:35:35  * andythenorth should firebug something
07:35:43  <andythenorth> also the design is aging
07:35:54  <andythenorth> but that’s a separate story
07:36:14  *** Rubidium_ is now known as Rubidium
07:36:16  <Alberth> we are just a bunch of techies, we can build anything, no clueless about what to build for a user :p
07:36:25  <Rubidium> kamnet: you are aware there are about 1250 unique / used GRFIDs?
07:36:27  <Alberth> s/no/just/
07:36:44  <andythenorth> bananas only misses an overview page for each grf
07:36:49  <kamnet> Rubidium: Yup. Huge task.
07:37:06  <andythenorth> nah
07:37:16  <andythenorth> autogenerate a page for every grfid
07:37:20  <andythenorth> every possible
07:37:30  <andythenorth> then wait for users to populate them
07:37:33  <kamnet> Although perhaps made a little easier if somebody could generate a script to scrape the current bananas database and then spit that out into individual pages with a template.
07:37:43  <andythenorth> hey, people could ‘claim’ a grfid via the wiki? o_O
07:37:48  <Alberth> "this grfid could be yours, get it now, for only $$"   :D
07:37:51  <kamnet> Exactly what I was thinking Andy.
07:38:13  <andythenorth> there might be a url dispatcher with regex
07:38:17  <andythenorth> so ranges could be claimed
07:38:21  <andythenorth> on a partial match
07:39:00  <kamnet> I was thinking that if somebody added a new file or updated one to bananas, there'd be a box to allow for creating a new wiki page, and maybe an entry in the client and on bananas that links to that.
07:39:33  <Rubidium> but how do you do that in the command line bananas tool?
07:39:34  <Alberth> bananas is bigger than newgrf, it also has scenarios, height maps, AIs, and game scripts
07:40:34  <Alberth> Rubidium: send a file?
07:40:46  <kamnet> For command line, maybe you just don't. And, of course, what if somebody didn't want to bother with info on a wiki? I'm not imagining this as something that must be done, just being reasonable.
07:41:34  <Alberth> what about useful combinations of newgrfs?  (just throwing ideas in the air)
07:41:34  <kamnet> Trying to figure out a way to make it happen for every possible way may just be too much work for the effort.
07:42:02  <andythenorth> Alberth: (digression) your idea for smaller components when setting orders, is that a vague idea, or more fully-formed?
07:42:15  <Alberth> it's vague
07:42:38  <Alberth> I severely lack openttd dev time
07:42:44  <andythenorth> me too :D
07:43:10  <kamnet> You can always create new pages to pull together various grfid's into a set. There are several pages on the OpenTTD Wiki now that essentially do that.
07:43:36  <Alberth> sounds good enough
07:45:02  <chillcore> Kamnet: heightmap: do you already have a scenario with terrain you want to export for re-use?
07:45:11  <kamnet> Yes.
07:45:35  <chillcore> ok then, like this ... make sure moregeightlevels is on and the max heigt setting is at 255
07:45:37  <chillcore> export
07:45:57  <chillcore> now load in trunk with both setting as before
07:46:02  <chillcore> should work
07:46:19  <chillcore> s trunk/stable
07:47:04  <chillcore> forget the 60 from before, height map may look rather black but that is fine
07:50:55  <kamnet> Right... it's still killing my terrain.
07:51:11  <chillcore> hmm can I download the sceanrio?
07:51:22  <chillcore> scenario*
07:51:43  <kamnet> Yeah gimmie a sec I'll upload it
07:51:55  <chillcore> not having newgrf is fine I only care about the terrain anyways
07:52:00  <supermop> anyone who wants these as dressing or cargo, have at it:
07:52:01  <supermop>
07:54:19  <supermop> pm me or whatever if you need the actual file, or it to exported
07:55:55  <supermop> forum won't let me attach .3dm to post
07:57:43  <chillcore> haha nice ... I hope you have some nice trappist in there
07:58:05  <Alberth> wrap a zip around it :p
07:58:55  <supermop> that arrives in 750ml bottles with corks as it is double or triple fermented in the bottle - this pub isn't buying the mass produced trappist chillcore
07:59:22  <chillcore> supermop: even better ;)
07:59:30  <kamnet> for a look at what's happening
07:59:32  <supermop> the back lot of the pub still looks too empty maybe ill model some crates of empty bottles to stack up
08:00:13  <Alberth> and some trash cans
08:00:19  <supermop> BEER->pub->MNSP->Brewery->repeat
08:00:41  <supermop> andythenorth: pls add above to FIRS beer economy
08:01:39  <andythenorth> :P
08:02:11  <kamnet> Scenario here:  build w/ 2013 Spring Patch Pack v2.1.143 Full
08:03:18  <chillcore> 404 on both links Kamnet
08:03:26  <supermop> i can see
08:03:46  <supermop> looks like some tall levels are flipping to zero...?
08:03:48  <chillcore> hmm must be browser defauing to https
08:03:50  <kamnet> chillcore: Hrm... they're working for me.
08:03:53  <chillcore> 1 sec
08:04:24  <chillcore> for you I will undo some stuffs temporarily . ;)
08:04:28  <kamnet> Ah, guess that would be explaining that LOL
08:05:07  <kamnet> supermop: Can you have those kegs repaint in 2CC? Every railway should have their own custom brew :D
08:06:13  <supermop> actually a flat color stripe around the middle would help alot with the overwhelming aluminum color
08:06:45  <chillcore> Kamnet: right I can see what happens now ... yay
08:06:47  <supermop> i thought about having a few colors of cap on them
08:07:17  <chillcore> also got the scenario just need that openttd build now
08:08:03  <supermop> for the pub at least im sure someone can come up with some fancy masking to give them CC or random other colors, but unsure if it is worth doing...?
08:08:24  <supermop> if they are on a platform to load or in a boxcar, CC is easy
08:08:38  <supermop> although stations only support 1cc so far
08:09:35  <kamnet> chillcore:
08:09:36  <supermop> andythenorth: early hog city bus could use dudes sitting upstairs when full
08:10:09  <supermop> going to go cook dinner brb
08:10:15  <kamnet> What's for dinner?
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08:10:34  <Supercheese> road hogs?
08:10:50  <Supercheese> or pineapples
08:11:02  <Supercheese> alternatively, fish & chips
08:11:17  <Alberth> squid &chips
08:12:35  <andythenorth> urgh, passengers
08:15:00  <kamnet> Just drop in some YETI dudes!
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08:29:27  <chillcore> Kamnet this may take a little moment but I should be able to fix that for you ... going to build spring patchpack myself as the binaries refuse duty and I don't feel like faffing much with fixing that. ;)
08:29:42  <kamnet> lol. Thanks
08:29:48  <chillcore> no crashlog so ...
08:30:24  <kamnet> Of course it woud just be nicer if the entire scenario could be imported into 1.5.0...
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08:31:39  <kamnet> Or, perhaps more helpful, just get a recent nightly with adf88's single house picker patch.
08:32:20  <Supercheese> Now I can finally get back to actually playing my saved game
08:32:55  <Supercheese> I find I often get sidetracked for days going, "Oh why doesn't this yet exist in some newgrf, I think I'll make it"
08:33:32  <chillcore> brb. reboot to get rid of something that is slowing down my system ... yay for enabling stuffs
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08:35:11  <kamnet> Start posting those gems then, Supercheese :D
08:35:31  <kamnet> I wish I had the time and eergy to buckle down and get some of my stuff finished
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08:42:58  <Alberth> new stuff to try always looks nicer to work on :)
08:56:59  <chillcore> Kamnet: I am surprised this even runs ... so much warnings ...
08:57:34  <chillcore> also motionsickness ... this moving main screen is killing me
08:57:37  <chillcore> XD
08:58:05  <kamnet> *laughs* Well, it's from a 2013 build, devs have been busy.
08:58:45  <supermop> steaks
08:58:56  <supermop> and lentils
08:58:58  <supermop> and beer
08:59:12  <kamnet> Yum! I'm hungry now. It's only 5am.
08:59:32  <chillcore> this patch ... that moves the viewport location ... just no ... but that may be just me
08:59:55  <kamnet> I don't ever pay attention to it
09:00:16  <chillcore> I have to ... advanced settings to check
09:00:59  <chillcore> also according to the warnings I have no choice in blitter and the prog sigs will not work as intented
09:01:09  <chillcore> anyhoo ... not what I am here for so
09:02:33  <chillcore> hmm this build does not have morheightlevels?
09:03:20  <chillcore> nvm
09:03:39  <kamnet> I was gonna say, how the heck did I build a 60 level map then??
09:04:13  <chillcore> ye the toggle option seems MIA
09:04:21  <chillcore> enabling show all ...
09:04:54  <chillcore> got it ... someone has a lot of work to do
09:04:58  <chillcore> not me
09:05:10  <kamnet> I'm sorry.
09:05:31  <kamnet> Truth be told, under the hood it's probably a horrible patch pack.
09:05:48  <chillcore> it's fine ... it is just that it does not show when selecting the "show patches settings"
09:06:29  <chillcore> not saying that it is horrible ... it may be made a bit more user friendly perhaps
09:06:39  <chillcore> and consistent in the gui department
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09:08:19  <kamnet> Latest version has quite a few bugs that haven't been resolved, ut understandable considering Pi1985 is in ukraine.
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09:15:07  <Supercheese> By the way kamnet, I'm using the Pacific Northwest Town Names grf in this game, and it's great; since I'm from the area myself I recognize nearly all of the names
09:15:27  <kamnet> Awesome, glad somebody is enjoying it.
09:15:36  <Alberth> they're just at the wrong place relatively to each other :p
09:15:53  <Supercheese> Sadly my town didn't come up in this mapgen
09:16:06  <Supercheese> but it's definitely in there, I'd seen it befor
09:16:07  <Supercheese> e
09:16:15  <Alberth> that would count as broken map, wouldn't it? :D
09:16:20  <Supercheese> heh
09:16:31  <Supercheese> anyway, need to post screens before I pass out
09:18:49  <chillcore> right: Kamnet you're not losing your sanity ... this exporting heightmaps code can not produce anything sensible
09:19:04  <chillcore> I really hope this is not what trunk has
09:19:12  <chillcore> not checked yet
09:19:27  <chillcore> anyhoo ... gimme some and you'll have a nice map to toy with
09:20:13  <kamnet> I got a lot of editing ahead of me still. I love the heights and the mountains created, but it's too hilly and alpinist in many parts, need more flat areas.
09:21:02  <chillcore> yeah them steep slopes at the borders and rivers and such I can not remove
09:21:17  <chillcore> but I can export a 1/1 copy after chaning heightmap.cpp
09:21:28  <chillcore> just need to replace that with my patchpacks code
09:21:31  <chillcore> :P
09:22:13  <kamnet> The river that cuts through the middle, that's hand-made and literally roughed in just to get a start. I tried to follow the lowest points in the middle of the map.
09:22:58  <chillcore> cool but I would have followed terrain .... all you need is locks on slopes ;)
09:23:00  <kamnet> I like the steep cliffs on most of the oceanside, though. The higher points all snow over in winter and I load those up with forests and mines. Abundant, but a real pain in the butt to get to.
09:23:06  <chillcore> your scenario though so your call
09:23:22  <chillcore> hehe
09:23:23  <kamnet> Oh there will be more rivers that follow terrain as well.
09:23:38  <peter1138> Hmm, should I install ottd on my tablet...
09:23:52  <chillcore> don't give it all away now ... surprise us
09:24:00  <chillcore> ^^^ Kamnet
09:24:53  <kamnet> LOL... I tried to whip this one out before 1.5.0 was released. I gave up after a week because i realized it's just going to take me too long. Heck. The original scenario took me three months.
09:25:08  <chillcore> ok
09:25:36  <Supercheese> Grrrr my .png keeps changing some colors on me when I save it
09:26:02  <kamnet> If I could get a recent nightly with afd88's single house picker patch, maybe rainfall generator too, that would speed up my development quite a bit
09:27:01  <chillcore> you would still be messing with a custom build ... games will no load in vanilla
09:27:08  <chillcore> waste of time TBH
09:27:11  <kamnet> Drats.
09:27:28  <kamnet> Afraid of that.
09:27:52  <chillcore> poke some devs for inclusion of single house picker :P
09:28:15  * chillcore hands poker to Kamnet
09:28:32  <kamnet> I talked to adf abou it, he said it's nowhere near ready for trunk inclusion.
09:28:41  <chillcore> ah ok
09:29:05  <chillcore> wait with the poking then but keep the poker for laters xD
09:29:19  <chillcore> I has more where that came from haha
09:29:34  <kamnet> But after I get this done, perhaps I'll finally get back to Thomas the Tank Engine scenario.
09:29:46  <chillcore> Toyland wot
09:29:49  <chillcore> woot*
09:30:20  <chillcore> let's call it Toddler the Tank
09:30:27  <kamnet> Nope. Temperate.
09:30:28  <chillcore> copyright and shizz
09:30:48  <chillcore> fine too
09:30:53  <kamnet> LOL
09:31:13  <kamnet> Although I guess I could build it in Toyland too.
09:31:30  <chillcore> ye animated models
09:32:13  <Supercheese> Ugh, I swear the water turns a different color when I upload my screenshots and view them in Firefox
09:32:18  <Supercheese> dunno what's going on there
09:32:31  <kamnet> compressing them?
09:33:40  <Supercheese> I can't say, they view fine on my local disk
09:33:51  <Supercheese> might just be Firefox being poopy
09:34:06  <Supercheese> anyway, good night
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09:35:25  <kamnet> Huh, they look fine to me.
09:55:13  <peter1138> Hmm, installing 1.5.0 gives you an out of date baseset :S
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09:57:02  <planetmaker> re bananas & wiki: there is an URL which can be speicifed for NewGRFs in bananas. That could well be a wiki page relating to it
09:59:27  <planetmaker> hm, so that link in the installer needs updating
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10:04:03  <planetmaker> I've honestly no clue as to where to update that information, though
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10:05:24  <Wolf01> o/
10:05:31  <Alberth> moin
10:05:58  <chillcore> hi wolf o/
10:07:19  <chillcore> Alberth: this may be testing your grey cells a bit too much ... when exporing heightmaps was added ... do you recall which file it was you added the code to devide the grey scale by 16?
10:07:38  <chillcore> it was not heightmap.cpp ...
10:08:44  <Alberth> loading or saving?
10:08:49  <chillcore> I kowit was you and I remember adjusting it ... this photographic memory of mine needs a higher resolution :P
10:08:52  <chillcore> saving
10:09:04  <chillcore> loading is in heightmap.cpp
10:09:52  <chillcore> but saving was not ... hmm
10:10:52  <chillcore> I'll find it for sure ...
10:11:30  <chillcore> I can always look at the function, don't sweat on it too much ;)
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10:14:46  <Alberth> MakeHeightmapScreenshot(const char *filename)     screenshot.cpp?
10:15:24  <Alberth> chillcore: ^
10:15:34  <chillcore> got it ... thank you so much Alberth
10:18:04  <Alberth> ack PNG  :)
10:20:29  <chillcore> I was searching in my patchpack ... it is a oneliner that needs fixing-ish still there and is not adjusted at all in the patchpack Kamnet is using
10:21:42  <peter1138> Hurr, do we have a tablet mode? Seeing a point is weird :)
10:32:51  <chillcore> Kamnet: you have a PM, enjoy ;)
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10:35:54  * chillcore checks trunk now
10:39:36  <chillcore> has been taken care of but ... peeps need to rember what the correct height setting is
10:39:55  <chillcore> do we include that value in the heighmap name?
10:40:47  <chillcore> anyhoo
10:43:03  <chillcore> I'll add fixing-ish that to my gui version too
10:43:33  <chillcore> I just do not want different maps between saving and loading
10:43:59  <chillcore> unless that is the thing peeps want ofcourse
10:45:39  <chillcore> so adding a number at the end of hte file name is simplest to keep everybody happy I guess
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10:54:27  <alluke> what was the translate page ?
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11:05:07  <Alberth> translate of what?
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11:26:19  <alluke> newgrf
11:26:29  <alluke> id like to fix a few errors from firs
11:27:34  <planetmaker>
11:30:08  <Alberth> o/
11:31:11  <alluke> thanks!
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11:32:31  <alluke> what to do if there reads done! instead of start fixing?
11:33:44  <Alberth> click at the project, select the language
11:33:54  <Alberth> select the string, imrprove
11:34:33  <Alberth> s/rp/p/
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11:37:16  <frosch123> planetmaker: the installer does not distinguish "compatible" versions of ogfx
11:37:28  <frosch123> there is a ogfx for 0.7 - 1.1
11:37:33  <frosch123> and a ogfx for 1.2 - ...
11:38:04  <frosch123> <- that's what needs updating
11:38:11  <frosch123> but we need to make a new release of ogfx anyway
11:38:21  <frosch123> there were some more fixes pending on the forums somewhere
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11:39:18  <frosch123> <- ah, i made a bookmark :)
11:43:47  <alluke> access denied?
11:44:07  <alluke> when i click  a string
11:44:15  <frosch123> what language?
11:44:50  <alluke> finnish
11:45:06  <frosch123> try again
11:45:16  <frosch123> i promoted you to finnish translator
11:45:27  <alluke> thanks
11:46:31  <frosch123> <- we have dedicated translator roles
11:46:51  <frosch123> there is no wildcard role for everyone :)
11:53:55  <alluke> steel mill ain't on the list?
11:54:29  <alluke> is it ottd base string?
11:54:48  <frosch123> quite possible
11:58:30  <supermop> i sure am getting a bunch of pub greeble out of this diversion
12:01:16  <frosch123> kamnet: the wiki supports sortable tables
12:02:21  <frosch123> <- take a look at the penis list
12:12:03  <Marty> really... frosch123
12:12:11  <Flygon> penis... list
12:12:52  <chillcore> XD
12:12:57  <frosch123> i didn't make that page, i have no idea what it is for
12:13:24  <frosch123> but i remembered that it was sortable :)
12:13:45  <Flygon> CTRL+Fing "penis" doesn't bring up penis
12:13:46  <Flygon> :|
12:13:47  <Marty> It was your way of referring to the page...
12:15:56  <frosch123> sorry, if you took offense
12:16:03  <Flygon> Mate
12:16:09  <Flygon> I'm in a wide variety of channels
12:16:13  <Flygon> Some raunchy, some not
12:16:16  <Flygon> This isn't raunchy
12:16:19  <Marty> Not at all, just made me smile
12:16:27  <Flygon> Sooooo
12:16:31  <Flygon> Yeah, I was surprised O_O
12:16:32  <Flygon> Anyway
12:16:34  <Flygon> AWAY I GO
12:16:46  * Flygon whooop whoop whoop whoop whoop, whoop whup
12:17:36  * chillcore tries to get rid of Mary Poppins sorting the damned things
12:17:51  <chillcore> there go my childhood memories
12:18:00  <chillcore> up up and away
12:18:10  <Flygon> God... this channel
12:18:13  <Flygon> Only this channel
12:18:26  <chillcore> lol
12:18:28  <Flygon> Could somehow make me think "Does Mary Poppins have a penis list?"
12:18:37  <Flygon> I'm rubbing my own forehead at this
12:18:44  <Flygon> Because I'm just "urg, dammit Flygon's brain"
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12:49:33  <chillcore> brainfood
12:49:49  <chillcore> may contain panda
12:50:21  <chillcore> but no nuts XD
12:58:17  <heffer> hmm. okay. so i need opengfx 0.5.2-RC1 to run openttd 1.5.0? is there any pre-release of nml that i can package so that our buildsystem could build 0.5.2-RC1?
12:58:42  <frosch123> no, only the broken one
12:59:03  <heffer> not what i wanted to hear :P
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13:40:37  <andythenorth> cat is surprised
13:45:44  <Alberth> you found it!
13:47:17  <V453000> xd
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14:16:34  <planetmaker> frosch123, re OpenGFX: the current version on bananas is a version which is suitable for 1.5.0 as it at least has all sprites.
14:16:42  <planetmaker> No doubt, though, it could use more bug fixes :)
14:18:42  <planetmaker> heffer, yeah, sorry. But I was away the last 4 weeks and I needed at least some OpenGFX for people to play with... even when it's hard for mainainers
14:25:39  <frosch123> i am currently fixing the alignment
14:25:45  <frosch123> of the gui sprites
14:28:51  <planetmaker> oh
14:29:00  <planetmaker> is it that bad?
14:29:19  <planetmaker> and how do I update the download-opengfx link?
14:29:27  <planetmaker> would be nice if I could do that in principle myself
14:29:36  <frosch123> no idea, ask Rubidium :)
14:29:45  <supermop> need to find a public domain photo of a pannier tank
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14:31:11  <chillcore> wikipedia?
14:31:40  <frosch123> hmm, the cursor sprites in 2x zoom are all wrong :p
14:33:12  <chillcore> fuuu mobile sites
14:33:57  <planetmaker> oh, the 2x sprites... yeah, maybe
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14:36:15  <chillcore> supermop:
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15:21:40  <kamnet> Hoorah, I got my nap in!
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15:27:39  <kamnet> Of course now everybody's skipped off for lunch or dinner. :D
15:30:40  <chillcore> <kamnet> Hoorah, I got my nap in!    <- Yay now daddy can eat without making a mess on the floor ... XD
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15:30:59  <chillcore> ah wait you did not leave out a k ... woopsie
15:31:01  <kamnet> SMH
15:31:14  <chillcore> o/
15:32:50  <chillcore> kamnet:  to repeat myself from earlier ... you've got a forum PM ;)
15:33:07  <kamnet> I got it, and thank you! What did you have to fix?
15:33:18  <chillcore> I replied to my own message
15:33:35  <chillcore> but I just changed a 16 into a 1 in screenshot.cpp
15:33:41  <chillcore> that is all
15:33:54  <chillcore> trunk does it a little different
15:34:56  <kamnet> Does this require a fix for trunk?
15:35:09  <chillcore> nope ... just load at level 255
15:35:31  <chillcore> or stable if you prefer
15:35:48  <chillcore> more audience that way for your scenario ;)
15:36:15  <kamnet> Was it the PNG being created by spring patch pack that was bad then?
15:36:21  <chillcore> it was the spring patchpack that missed on a change to make somehow
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15:36:30  <chillcore> yes it reduced levels to 16
15:36:33  <kamnet> Ah.
15:36:51  <chillcore> my fix just keeps the greayscale intact
15:37:21  <chillcore> so max_height at 255 and your map will be whatever it was before. ;)
15:37:28  <kamnet> *ponders* That may be fixed in the most recent version then.
15:37:47  <chillcore> maybe I don't know
15:38:01  <kamnet> I should check.
15:38:34  <chillcore> for trunk to keep the map as is you should load it at the same level maxheight was when exporting
15:40:02  <chillcore> too much room to mess up IMHO since the heightmap does not remember what it was
15:40:32  <chillcore> eg if you upload a heightmap to bananas ... the one downloading has no clue what to do
15:41:09  <Alberth> examine the file?
15:41:29  <chillcore> how Alberth?
15:41:42  <Alberth> it's being loaded into memory right?
15:41:52  <chillcore> I mean after that
15:41:56  <frosch123> we need a mapgen preview :p
15:42:13  <chillcore> yes that too
15:42:14  <Alberth> I need openttd dev time for that :(
15:42:34  <chillcore> what I mean is this:
15:42:52  <chillcore> say I have this nice game game and want to share my heightmap
15:43:10  <chillcore> my maxheight is 60 so the greayscale is adjusted to that
15:43:17  <chillcore> that seems fine in a way
15:43:25  <chillcore> but now I upload it to bananas
15:43:37  <chillcore> how does the one downloading know that I had 60
15:43:50  <chillcore> that is the only way his game looks like mine
15:43:58  <Alberth> don't think the one knows
15:44:10  <chillcore> that is the prob indeed
15:44:13  <frosch123> heightmaps are not scenarios
15:44:16  <chillcore> so my suggestion is this
15:44:24  <frosch123> with heightmaps you are free to choose map size and height
15:44:42  <chillcore> when exporting with moreheightlevels off ... scale to 16
15:44:42  <Alberth> but you can walk over the data, and check min/max value, and tell the one these numbers, or have a toggle "automagically copy map values"
15:45:03  <chillcore> and when the setting is on do scale to 255
15:45:04  <frosch123> but i see that there is an issue with saving, the max allowed mapheight has nothing to do with the max used mapheight
15:45:34  <chillcore> yes indeed frosh ... I kept things way simpler in my patchpack
15:45:36  <Alberth> good point
15:45:45  <frosch123> [17:44] <chillcore> when exporting with moreheightlevels off ... scale to 16 <- that is already the case
15:45:58  <frosch123> all heightmaps are always scaled to the full greyscale range
15:46:02  <chillcore> not anymore
15:46:26  <chillcore> Alberth yes indeed that part is fine
15:46:39  <chillcore> it is when the setting is on that probs come
15:47:02  <chillcore> so to continue with loading the map
15:47:24  <chillcore> if moreheightlevels is off we load at 16
15:47:30  <chillcore> of on we load at 255
15:47:38  <frosch123> mhl is no bool switch :p
15:47:45  <chillcore> it used to be frosh
15:47:51  <chillcore> and all was good
15:47:56  <frosch123> anyway, the problem is really the max height setting
15:48:00  <chillcore> yes
15:48:06  <chillcore> it has to go
15:48:11  <frosch123> it breaks heightmaps, it breaks snowline, everything with absolute heights
15:48:12  <Alberth> please tell current state, it's confusing enough without history
15:48:25  <chillcore> true
15:48:26  <frosch123> so, the issue is not specific to heightmaps at all
15:48:31  <chillcore> no
15:48:37  <chillcore> way beyond that
15:48:48  <frosch123> Alberth: current state is that both save and load map the complete greyscale range to 0 to max-height setting
15:48:50  <chillcore> but ok heightmaps
15:48:53  <Alberth> I think you need a new "current largest used height" var
15:49:01  <frosch123> Alberth: which is the only sane thing to do
15:49:26  <chillcore> we ned maxheight at 255 at all time if moreheightlevels is on
15:49:37  <chillcore> and do the rest differently
15:49:46  <frosch123> Alberth: problem is, that max-height is used to decide what height are high and which are low (for various things, including snowline)
15:49:54  <chillcore> eg my fix for tropical in the tgen light patch
15:50:00  <frosch123> Alberth: but map generator has its very own idea what heights to generate
15:50:22  <frosch123> chillcore: i disagree, maxheight at 255 makes no sense
15:50:46  <frosch123> i does not solve any issue with map height percentages
15:50:58  <chillcore> yes it does
15:51:09  <chillcore> i di not finish my explanation
15:51:41  <chillcore> say I got this game with topheight 60 (actual tile)
15:52:03  <chillcore> and export scaled to 255 ... when I load it my top tile is still 60
15:52:11  <chillcore> it is as simple as that
15:52:27  <chillcore> please trust me on this ;)
15:52:59  <Alberth> yes, but I want max at 128 (ie load your 60 high map, but limit raising to 128
15:53:01  <chillcore> maps that are loaded remain as they were ahen saved
15:53:02  <frosch123> you did not answer my question
15:53:21  <frosch123> chillcore: what heightlevel is snow at, if it is set to 90%?
15:53:31  <chillcore> same as it is now
15:53:52  <frosch123> ...
15:53:56  <chillcore> hm wait where did the 90% come from?
15:53:57  <frosch123> well, it is broken
15:54:01  <chillcore> NewGRF?
15:54:18  <frosch123> yes, all newgrf heights are defines as percentage
15:54:24  <frosch123> since that is the only thing that makes sense
15:54:35  <chillcore> aha ...
15:54:41  <chillcore> I can fix that
15:54:57  <chillcore> take 90% of what the user has as snowlevel
15:55:04  <chillcore> instead of max_height
15:55:09  <chillcore> simples
15:55:11  <frosch123> snowline is only an example
15:55:23  <chillcore> same for desert and everythin else
15:55:35  <chillcore> you can not rely on that maxheight setting
15:55:43  <chillcore> it makes no sense at all
15:55:43  <frosch123> you need a general rule what heightlevel is high, and what is low
15:55:50  <chillcore> true
15:56:08  <chillcore> that is what terrain type does
15:56:14  <frosch123> i would think that the maxheight setting need to be adjusted to mapsize
15:56:27  <chillcore> hmm ...
15:56:29  <frosch123> or possibly a warning if it is very off
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15:56:39  <frosch123> like when loading a heightmap and choosing a very different aspect ratio
15:57:04  <chillcore> thinking ...
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15:57:46  <chillcore> snowline for when loading heightmaps ...
15:58:04  <chillcore> we scan for the highest tile after loading the terrain
15:58:12  <chillcore> just like I fixed tropical
15:58:25  <frosch123> that makes no sense
15:58:32  <frosch123> the user can scale heightmaps
15:58:41  <frosch123> both x, y and z dimensions
15:58:55  <chillcore> the z dimension is kinda a bad idea but ok
15:58:56  <frosch123> the loading of heightmaps is completely fine
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15:59:20  <frosch123> the issue is with saving the heightmap, because the maxheight setting does not reflect the actual heights of the map
15:59:43  <chillcore> hmm ...
15:59:48  <frosch123> chillcore: think of heightmaps coming from realworld data, not as them being saved with ottd
16:00:03  <frosch123> the latter is only a trick to circumvent the issues with scenarios
16:00:34  <frosch123> loading heightmaps loads a greyscale image from any source, and it scales it correctly to x,y,z dimensions configured in ottd
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16:00:47  <chillcore> hmm yeah but peeps have always had to cheat anyways so nohing changes there
16:00:58  <chillcore> not much*
16:01:46  <frosch123> snowline, rainforrest, save-heightmap, other-newgrf conditions... they all have the same issue with maxheight being unreleated to what the mapgen acutally produces
16:01:58  <chillcore> exactly
16:02:05  <chillcore> so why do we rely on it?
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16:02:59  <frosch123> because we have no other "height scale" setting
16:03:12  <chillcore> ok fair enough
16:03:22  <chillcore> I'll fix it for you guys
16:03:26  <frosch123> maybe we should change the snowline setting to also be in percent in the gui
16:03:47  <frosch123> and rename the maxheight setting to "height scale" or something
16:03:49  <chillcore> yeah maybe that is a good idea
16:04:30  <chillcore> I will fix all of what is currently wrong ... at least I will try
16:05:06  <chillcore> but please apply tgen light ... pretty please ...
16:05:08  <frosch123> all 100 fs tasks? :p
16:05:15  <chillcore> moehahahaha
16:05:23  <chillcore> I'll start with MHL
16:05:32  <chillcore> if that is k with you ;)
16:06:42  <chillcore> I know there is quite a bit to do and change ... and not is as simple as it seems ... I'll admit that
16:06:49  <chillcore> +all
16:07:23  <chillcore> the thing iqs that ic111 told me to stop tweaking
16:07:31  <chillcore> because he wanted to get o with it
16:07:41  <chillcore> so I did my patchpack
16:07:57  <chillcore> and when I did give things back to him he did not imlpement
16:08:06  <chillcore> so I said balls to it
16:08:19  <chillcore> then the committing started and I could not get inbetween
16:08:23  <chillcore> I felt ignored
16:08:27  <chillcore> then ISP happened
16:08:38  <chillcore> anyhoo moving forward
16:09:03  <chillcore> ther is a decent fix for tropical in tgen light ... does not depend on the rest ;)
16:09:17  <chillcore> let's start with that?
16:10:04  <chillcore> the first three patches are optional but make such a big difference already
16:10:20  <chillcore> actually playable coasts
16:10:49  <chillcore> the tuning of perlin params could use a bit more tweaks
16:11:01  <chillcore> but generate so much nicer maps than what we currently have
16:11:36  <chillcore> there is nothing else in the light version
16:11:46  <chillcore> just some magic numbers tweaking
16:12:18  <chillcore> commit messages should speak for themselves
16:12:52  <Alberth> yeah yeah, it's already on my list :p
16:12:59  <chillcore> I don't like to push like this
16:13:08  <chillcore> I just know that my thing is good
16:13:28  <chillcore> thank you Alberth, and take your time
16:13:28  <Marty> Im sure you heard this a mio times, but isnt the days in the game a bit short?
16:14:11  <frosch123> Marty: you mean the overall gametime is too short?
16:14:24  <Alberth> playing a game to the 'end' is 24 hours, too short?
16:14:51  <frosch123> the length of a day is only a result of dividing the time a game on 256x256 map should take by 100 years
16:14:53  <Marty> I mean trains traveling for several weeks
16:15:15  <Alberth> Marty: yes, scales have no meaning
16:15:52  <frosch123> Marty: oh, so if you build a piece of track, you want to wait 5 years till it is completed? :p
16:16:37  <Marty> no I just think days are a bit short compared to the cargo pickups and station rating etc
16:16:56  <frosch123> that's how computer games are
16:17:55  <Alberth> time and sizes are chosen "to work" in the game, not balanced against reality or so
16:18:26  <Alberth> so a train is 1/2 house, and an airport is just 5-6 houses or so
16:18:38  <Marty> train velocity and acceleration doesnt really compare with the real world
16:21:53  <Alberth> nothing does :)
16:22:26  <Terkhen> hello
16:22:31  <Alberth> hi hi Terkhen
16:22:53  <chillcore> hello Terkhen
16:23:28  * chillcore takes some notes of things to fix and the way that is prefered to fix them
16:25:31  <chillcore> - exporting heightmaps at 255 or 16 base on allowmoreheightlevels, instead of current top tile
16:25:54  <frosch123> why are you so obsessed with the 16 and 255?
16:26:05  <chillcore> because that works
16:26:09  <chillcore> 16 for old maps
16:26:15  <chillcore> 255 for anything new
16:26:34  <chillcore> hmm wait ... not needed
16:26:42  <chillcore> just 255 when exporting
16:26:47  <chillcore> that will do
16:26:47  <frosch123> old maps also used the whole greyscale range
16:26:54  <chillcore> yeah
16:27:26  <chillcore> it is when loading that the old ones need 16 ... my bad
16:27:48  <frosch123> i really don't understand your thoughs :/
16:27:53  <chillcore> adding a line to my file ;)
16:28:00  <chillcore> I know frosch sorry about that
16:28:26  <Alberth> just add a scale parameter, imho
16:28:53  <chillcore> thing is that I do not think about most of that stuff no more because I did many times before
16:29:08  <chillcore> Alberth: scale for loading or exporting?
16:29:24  <Alberth> loading
16:29:39  <chillcore> frosch and explaing it not my forte ... I prefer showing
16:29:39  <Alberth> imho it doesn't make sense to destroy information when exporting
16:29:51  <chillcore> Alberth ... makes sense ... adding to my file
16:30:18  <Alberth> adding sense to the file is always a good thing(tm)  :D
16:30:30  <chillcore> XD
16:32:27  <chillcore> I think the way heighmaps as it is now does not need much tweaking ... maybe just a warning like there is for resizing the map?
16:32:38  <chillcore> + loading*
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16:33:35  <chillcore> scaling down is prety much fine but up does not work quite well
16:33:57  <Alberth> yeah, inventing information is always a problem
16:34:11  <Alberth> no surprises there :)
16:34:17  <chillcore> you get these uglyy slopes due to there not being more then 1 tile height difference between tiles too
16:34:31  <chillcore> as you say it Alberth
16:35:12  <frosch123> again, the primary purpose of load heightmap is to load images from external sources
16:35:19  <chillcore> hmm  what else is still broken ... we fixed a few things a few weeks back already ...
16:35:33  <chillcore> frosh for that we have the setting no?
16:35:38  <frosch123> there is no point in adjusting loading heightmaps to please whatever save-heightmap does
16:35:44  <chillcore> it is prety much good as is for that
16:35:51  <chillcore> true
16:35:53  <kamnet> Apparently I found a great way to cause some trouble today chillcore!
16:36:15  <Alberth> :)
16:36:32  <chillcore> not at all Kamnet ... this discussion has to happen some day anyway ... so thank you
16:36:36  <frosch123> chillcore: as, said i do not understand your thoughts at all :) i only see that there are arguments for how load-heightmap should work wrt. previously exported heightmaps, which i consider an invalid reasoning in geneal
16:36:53  <chillcore> I dig that
16:37:23  <chillcore> so lets leave loading as is
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16:37:38  <chillcore> just export at 255
16:37:47  <chillcore> then when loaded at 255 all is good
16:37:57  <chillcore> if loaded lower all is good too ;)
16:38:03  <chillcore> players choice
16:38:49  <chillcore> if exported at 255 people like kamnet can redo scenarios without losing height info
16:39:00  <chillcore> ^^^ that is my only concern
16:39:17  <chillcore> this is near impossible right now
16:39:18  <Alberth> wrong concern
16:39:21  <chillcore> hehe
16:39:34  <Alberth> you should be able to load a heightmap as-is
16:39:56  <Alberth> that's it, source of the heightmap it totally irrelevant
16:40:08  <chillcore> sure if you know the level it was exported at then you can no prob
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16:40:31  <frosch123> exporting and loading heightmap works for all x/y/z dimensions, as long as they are the same for loading and saving
16:40:32  <chillcore> for importing from extarnal sources ... yeah
16:40:37  <frosch123> so, i do not see what the issue is
16:41:04  <LordAro> frosch123: heh, i was going to update the wiki page, but seems someone else got there first :)
16:41:09  <frosch123> if you save a heightmap with a different maxheight setting than you load it with later, you get a different map the same way as when you load it with a different x/y size
16:41:24  <frosch123> LordAro: yeah, i wondered whether you changed your name :p
16:41:46  <LordAro> :)
16:42:01  <frosch123> though i think the template was still missing or something
16:42:11  <LordAro> yeah, that was the only thing left for me to do :)
16:42:31  <chillcore> frosch: yes ... indeed it will be different
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16:43:46  <chillcore> but what if I do not want it to be different at all ... let me do some testing here ... and produce something to show you
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17:11:30  <chillcore>
17:11:33  <chillcore> last post
17:11:47  <chillcore> hint the value you are looking for is not 255
17:12:01  <chillcore> it could have been but that would be too easy
17:12:40  <chillcore> anything slightly off and the map looks like garbage
17:12:53  <chillcore> read: unplayable
17:13:21  <chillcore> I do not kow how else to explain it
17:13:51  <chillcore> if I had exported at 255 by automatic all you had to do was load at 255
17:13:53  <chillcore> alas
17:14:34  <chillcore> I will reveal the magic value ... just not yet
17:14:44  <chillcore> also imagine I upload to bananas as is
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17:14:55  <chillcore> I will not I promise
17:15:02  <Alberth> we already established that loading is broken right?
17:15:11  <chillcore> this is exporting ...
17:15:20  <chillcore> I exported at some value
17:15:41  <chillcore> it hangs together Alberth
17:15:43  <soupy> So I'm seeing there was a patch a while back that simulated signals in tunnels, but I can't seem to find it for download or as a NewGRF.  Any clues?
17:15:43  <frosch123> Alberth: i thought loading is fine, only exporting is broken :p
17:15:52  <chillcore> and yes we astablished that some things are broken
17:16:01  <chillcore> see what I mean :P
17:16:22  <chillcore> we can not agree on what is broken
17:16:47  <chillcore> without wanting to sound cocky I can fix all this
17:17:12  <chillcore> my rerasons seem not to be valid (due to me not being able to explain all of it)
17:17:21  <Alberth> to me, a heightmap can come from anywhere, and I want to have control while loading it
17:17:45  <chillcore> you will have alberth I will not take that away from you ;)
17:18:08  <chillcore> just exporting at 255 and done with it
17:18:12  <soupy> Oh, hi Chill.  In fact, I think you had included the tunnel signal in a patchpack at one point.
17:18:18  <chillcore> if peeps want the same they do so at 255
17:18:27  <chillcore> and you can at whatever you want still
17:18:30  <chillcore> ;)
17:18:31  <Alberth> chillcore: i mean from ANYWHERE
17:18:47  <Alberth> not just export from openttd
17:18:49  <chillcore> yes I need not touch loading
17:19:09  <chillcore> soupy: yes I did and hello
17:19:30  <Alberth> and I can set max height at 156 or so ?
17:19:40  <chillcore> yes
17:19:43  <chillcore> no prob
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17:20:07  <Alberth> k, then sure, export might be broken too :)
17:20:43  <chillcore> but you will not be fishing after some magic value if you know the map was exported from openttd
17:21:02  <Alberth> I don't need to, I have full control
17:21:38  <chillcore> hehe
17:21:44  <chillcore> yes you do
17:21:55  <soupy> Chill, do you know what happened to the signal in tunnel simulation?
17:22:04  <Alberth> soupy: NewGRF won't work, what does "find for download" mean?
17:22:34  <Alberth> at best there is a source code patch that you have to insert into the openttd program while compiling it
17:22:46  <soupy> Alberth: I'm not sure, to be honest.  I know how to use NewGRFs, but I was hoping there was a patch or something.
17:23:00  <Alberth> chillcore: so how do I have full control of loading then?
17:23:22  <soupy> Ah, I'm not savvy on that side of things yet.
17:23:23  <Alberth> soupy: depends on your definition of "patch".  Here that includes source code patches :)
17:23:53  <soupy> It seemed like a good idea, disappointed it hasn't made it into the main source.
17:24:14  <Alberth> it's too hacky, imho
17:24:38  <Alberth> soupy: maybe in the "new map features" topic in the development forum?
17:24:51  <Alberth> it is a fork of openttd, maybe they have such a thing included
17:24:54  <chillcore> soupy: the last version is floating around in its topic, for my patchpack go here
17:24:59  <soupy> Gotcha.
17:25:07  <chillcore> mind that newer NewGRF might not work
17:25:08  <Alberth> and they tend to have prebuilt binaries too
17:25:20  <chillcore> Also other patchpacks are available ;)
17:27:07  <soupy> I don't want to break other NewGRFs for this one function... I guess I'll stick to periodic open spots in my lines for signalling for now.
17:28:17  <chillcore> Alberth: you have full control by using the height value that is in the load heightmap gui ... that value is not tied to max_height IIRC
17:28:31  <Alberth> soupy: just build several tunnels next to each other
17:28:58  <soupy> I don't know why that never occured to me...
17:29:49  <Alberth> people tend to try the first idea they get working in the way they want it
17:30:00  <Alberth> even if it's not the best idea
17:30:04  <soupy> Ah, that is the truth.
17:30:54  <chillcore> Alberth: hehe we change max_height level on the fly when loading the heightmap ...
17:30:56  <Alberth> so the trick is to know when to discard a solution :)
17:31:52  <Alberth> chillcore: the game should tell me used height levels imho, or I cannot load anything safely
17:32:10  <soupy> Oh man... Chill's pack also includes Cargo Distribution.  That's the other thing I've been a-Googlin'.
17:32:22  <Alberth> it's in stable :)
17:32:26  <chillcore> ^^^
17:32:33  <Alberth> about a year already :p
17:34:19  <soupy> Well, I am now excited.  I don't know how I've missed it in-game.  The Let's Play I was watching with it on (Damage's Modded LP) seems to act differently.
17:34:36  <soupy> I'll pay closer attention though and see what I'm doing wrong.
17:35:54  <Alberth> it's off by default? :)
17:36:37  <chillcore> Alberth: "or I cannot load anything safely" I understand that. and it is exactly that that i want to solve by getting rid of an ever changing value  ,in multiple guis, that makes absolutely no sense
17:37:02  <chillcore> to me thtat is
17:37:05  <soupy> Hey now, I never claimed I was a clever man...
17:37:33  <Alberth> you're going to fix all image generating programs in the world chillcore?
17:37:48  <chillcore> we do not need to ...
17:37:59  <chillcore> we load heightmaps whatever their colour may be
17:38:15  <chillcore> you still get to choose the height of the result
17:38:18  <Alberth> soupy: no harm intended, just pointing out a possible reason why you missed it
17:38:34  <soupy> I know, man.  It's all good.
17:38:38  <chillcore> but while choosing you will not be changing 'that' value ;)
17:39:13  <chillcore> it will just be a number that needs no saving
17:39:26  <chillcore> in the load heightmap gui that is
17:39:57  <Alberth> hmm, you're going to throw away scaling?
17:40:17  <chillcore> scaling agains the gryscale will be there
17:40:36  <chillcore> no changes to make
17:40:46  <chillcore> except thet setting it is tied to
17:40:52  <chillcore> maybe I should just do
17:40:58  <chillcore> and let the code speak
17:41:03  <chillcore> or rather the gamplay
17:41:07  <chillcore> good idea?
17:41:08  <Alberth> well, you've lost me then, for now at least
17:41:25  <chillcore> I'll just do it
17:41:36  <chillcore> and let you guys decide
17:41:45  <Alberth> yeah, I'll find some random heightmaps to load :p
17:42:00  <chillcore> coolios
17:42:10  <Alberth> I think I have a staircase somewhere :p
17:42:28  <chillcore> if all works will you then apply :evil_grin:
17:42:43  <Alberth> s/evil/big/
17:43:11  <chillcore> aha the staircase ... i should have it here somewhere ... still
17:43:29  <Alberth> that map is fun, I made a test map with some heights, uploaded it to bananas
17:43:44  <Alberth> it's totally unplayable, yet downloaded a zillion times :p
17:43:51  <chillcore> Alberth yeah thanks for correcting ... I forgot the 'twisted'  part
17:44:45  <chillcore> I'll do my tgen gui after MHL fixes ;)
17:44:51  <chillcore> s fixes/changes
17:45:43  <Alberth> it would be nice if tgen gui could be done in a new worldgen gui, but that may be a long time
17:46:32  <chillcore> btw to generate a nice map from the heightmap I posted ... 57 is the magic nr ;)
17:47:02  <chillcore> still going to wait to post it
17:47:56  <chillcore> Alberth: yeah I agree might be a while ... I have a lot to learn still when it comes to guis ...
17:49:23  <chillcore> brb
17:56:01  <chillcore> re
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18:09:56  <andythenorth> o/
18:09:59  * andythenorth delurks
18:10:06  <andythenorth> been looking at cats
18:10:29  <chillcore> meow
18:10:35  <V453000> asdf
18:16:14  <Marty> :/
18:17:00  * chillcore whoppas
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18:27:16  <Marty> V453000: I just saw the post about RAWR at openttdcoop.. very nice. But howcome it is a GRF and not installed though the check online content menu like zBase?
18:27:57  <Marty> I mean you cant really choose Rawr in the game option menu
18:28:45  <V453000> it is a newgrf, not a base set
18:29:03  <V453000> so you can load it as a static newgrf, since it uses no functions
18:29:56  <Marty> What is the difference between a base graphic set and a newgrf then?
18:30:09  <Marty> Or where can I read more about this?
18:30:09  <V453000> you can select a base set at the game menu :)
18:30:20  <V453000> idk probably nowhere
18:30:28  <V453000> but you can read how to apply a static newgrf at the rawr wiki
18:30:42  <V453000>
18:30:53  <Marty> oh okay. If rawr aimes to replace all sprites .. then it become a basic set I guess
18:30:53  <Alberth> in the source code, but it may be a bit very unreadable :p
18:31:42  <Alberth> Marty: I think that's the idea yeah, you cannot have a base set that is not complete. This is an easy way to test the sprites without having to be complete
18:32:08  <Marty> Okay then I have understood it kind of correct then.
18:32:25  <V453000> yeah pretty much
18:32:32  <Alberth> in particular, a base set also have eg gui things, that V may not want to draw at all
18:32:34  <V453000> also, the newgrf allows me to do shenanigans with parameters
18:32:55  <Marty> The NewGRF system works pretty well
18:32:59  <V453000> I want to eventually draw everything without exceptions Alberth, but yeah ... eventually is time
18:33:16  <Marty> I like what you have done so far
18:33:17  <Alberth> Marty: for some value of "well", yep :)
18:34:09  <V453000> I would like it to be nicer, the quality is ok but not great
18:37:09  * andythenorth ponders Hogs
18:39:07  <Marty> In time Im sure it will work out
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18:41:33  <TartarusMkII> Heya, I'm new to Open TTD and quite like it. I am wondering though, how do I get goods as a resource to be picked up? From the beginning of the game, I see my road vehicles can pick up passengers and mail, but goods trucks are not picking anything up. Why is that? I got a message saying that valuables were not available in a certain town- so is it
18:41:33  <TartarusMkII> a progression type thing? Please do let me know!
18:43:16  <frosch123> only raw industries produce on their own
18:43:31  <frosch123> processing industries only produce if you deliver raw cargos to them
18:43:39  <frosch123> so, start with coal or wood
18:43:42  <frosch123> or oil
18:43:48  <TartarusMkII> So then where do "goods" come from?
18:43:57  <TartarusMkII> Or is that what "goods" is refering to?
18:44:05  <frosch123> oil well -> oil -> refinery -> goods -> town
18:44:16  <frosch123> forest -> wood -> saw mill -> goods -> town
18:44:30  <TartarusMkII> Oh I see, goods is a product like steel? Okay, I thought it was something generic.
18:44:31  <frosch123> farm -> grain/livestock -> factory -> goods -> town
18:44:34  <TartarusMkII> oh okay I see, I see.
18:44:36  <TartarusMkII> cool.
18:45:01  <TartarusMkII> Yea, I've never played a game like this except one iOS game where you'd do that sort of feeder service tihng
18:45:30  <TartarusMkII> but beyond that, I'm just exploring. Right now I have a big feeder service for a dual city metro area feeding a train to send off to a small town, which has its own small feeder to send mail and passengers back
18:45:46  <TartarusMkII> and I'm glad I got the orders correct so that the feeder works right, transfering people so that the money is made when the train reaches its furthest destination
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18:48:07  <TartarusMkII> ALso, I am wondering, how can I carve rail or roads through farm lands to get to the farm building? Can I just.. build through it? Or what do I have to do?
18:48:10  <Alberth> indeed pax is one of the easiest ways to get some understanding of things
18:48:26  <Alberth> you can just build at it, no problem
18:48:36  <Alberth> it's just more expensive
18:48:40  <TartarusMkII> Okay cool, thanks.
18:48:59  <Alberth> which depending on your amount of money may or may not be a problem :p
18:50:19  <TartarusMkII> There is a steel mill in the middle of a city I'm using, and it'd be a huge pain to build a rail way there- but the iron is far away, but a straight shot. Do you think I should build a road way all the way out there, or rail?
18:50:27  <Alberth> you can get more loan, but at some point you cannot pay the interest any more :p
18:50:29  <TartarusMkII> Like, to give the network its own little local railway
18:51:38  <Alberth> I heavily prefer trains, so I'd build a track, but I know others use trams and RVs (road vehicles)
18:51:56  <Alberth> and I'd probably find a steel mill outside a town :p
18:52:06  <TartarusMkII> why outside of town?
18:52:18  <Alberth> less pain in getting space
18:52:27  <TartarusMkII> ah true true.
18:52:51  <Alberth> it depends on how much iron you want to move to it though
18:53:05  <TartarusMkII> I notice in some forum screenshots for the graphics packs I can download from the Open TTD client, ther'es a lot of packs made for a really high resolution. What's the deal with that? I'm afraid to download any extra graphics.
18:53:07  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:53:33  <Alberth> you mean zoom in?
18:54:11  <Alberth> yes you can look at things at very close range if you like, you can set max zoom in
18:54:17  <Alberth> upto 4x
18:55:01  <Alberth> graphic artists, and people making eye candy like high resolution stuff, as it gives more details
18:55:19  <Marty> why afraid?
18:55:25  <Alberth> but you can play everything at 'normal' zoom if you like
18:55:43  <Alberth> or at 2x zoom, or at 4x zoom, just select what you want
18:57:18  * andythenorth was afraid of newgrf for ~2 years
18:57:29  <andythenorth> it seemed like I was hacking OpenTTD and would break the game
18:58:29  <TartarusMkII> Like here
18:58:30  <TartarusMkII>
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18:58:45  <TartarusMkII> My game doesn't look like that at all.
19:04:38  <TartarusMkII> =o
19:05:05  <Alberth> oh, that is mostly zBase
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19:05:27  <Alberth> I assume you have OpenGFX now as base set
19:05:49  <Alberth> or the base set of the original TTD  CD-rom
19:06:15  <Alberth> but there is also a 32bpp baseset (and yes in 1x, 2x, or 4x, your pick)
19:06:35  <TartarusMkII> Yea, I guess I am using OpenGFX
19:06:46  <TartarusMkII> so I am using 8 by default?
19:06:52  <Alberth> 8 ?
19:07:04  <TartarusMkII> the other setting of bpp. Sorry, alien to me. lol
19:07:09  <Alberth> oh, 8bpp?
19:07:13  <Alberth> depends
19:07:37  <Alberth> if you load a 32bpp newgrf, or if your system cannot handle 8bpp, it will switch to 32bpp by itself
19:07:59  <Alberth> note that the number of available colours has nothing to do with the number of used colours
19:08:25  <Alberth> it's perfectly possible to use < 256 colours of the 256^3 that exist in 32bpp
19:08:43  <TartarusMkII> I see, I See.
19:09:02  <TartarusMkII> So in OpenGFX, those chinese trains might look a bit odd and out of place?
19:09:53  <Alberth> yeah, you get more details with those trains and blocky graphics for the rest
19:10:16  <Alberth> that's why people use zbase, as it has fullt detail all the way to 4x
19:10:45  <TartarusMkII> It does look pretty cool, but the original GFX are so charming! X3
19:10:49  <Alberth> but if you don't like it, or never use it, it's just wasted resources :)
19:11:14  <Alberth> I fully agree with you, I don't like the clean 32bpp sprites at all
19:11:27  <TartarusMkII> Hehe why not?
19:11:34  <kamnet> me is waiting for OpenGFX 8bpp Extra Zoom baseset ;-)
19:11:44  <Alberth> too clean, too generated look
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19:12:01  <Alberth> kamnet may be waiting for a very long time :p
19:12:43  <Alberth> RAWR could be the answer, haven't really looked at it, but knowing the author, it's going to be awesome
19:12:51  <kamnet> I waited 10+ years to stop pirating Transport Tycoon Deluxe :P
19:13:08  <kamnet> Another 7 to finally stop using TTD's base set
19:13:34  <frosch123> opengfx is from 2007
19:13:37  <Alberth> I just bought the CD-rom :p
19:13:41  <frosch123> so only 12 years after original
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19:13:46  <Marty> I have completly forgotten how the original TTD looks
19:14:02  <TartarusMkII> hahaha
19:14:11  <Alberth> I tried that again recently, it looks much nicer than opengfx, imho, more details
19:14:20  <frosch123> kamnet: ottd is older than ttd was when ottd started :p
19:14:24  <kamnet> Somebody's been posting screenshots from original TTD. IMO, it looks dreadful LOL
19:14:54  <Alberth> yeah, that were great shots :)
19:15:05  <kamnet> I'll grant you there's a lot more detail in TTD vs. OpenGFX, but everything is darker, looks more dirty and depressing
19:15:28  <TartarusMkII> the transport industry is depressing
19:15:29  <TartarusMkII> LOL
19:15:55  <kamnet> Exactly! This is supposed to be a FUN GAME. If I wanted entirely realistic I'd go step outside.
19:16:11  <Alberth> remove everything but toyland!
19:16:19  <chillcore> :P
19:16:22  <kamnet> But I'd have to drive 20 miles to my closest railyard to go sit and be emo about it all.
19:19:06  <Marty> Haha though life kamnet
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19:19:56  <kamnet> Yeah all the rail lines were abandoned and sold off in my town in the 1970s. All we have left is the old station that's been vandalized and partially burned down by vandals.
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19:21:14  <Marty> I live in the city but modern rail are very disapointing by comparison
19:21:21  <Alberth> kamnet: I am wondering why your aero train doesn't crash into the side wall?
19:21:25  <Marty> basicly no cargo is moved by train where I live
19:21:28  <TartarusMkII> I live in New York, and I believe the Long Island Rail Road here is the most used passenger rail service in the US? But I forget.
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19:22:59  <kamnet> Alberth: I'm guessing because of a cushion of air building up on the sides between the wings and walls.
19:23:27  <Alberth> yeah, must be something like that
19:23:49  <kamnet> The big challenge of the real life technology has been controlling pitch and yaw, to basically stop it from taking off like a plane and then twisting in the wind.
19:24:08  <Alberth> sounds like another big problem :p
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19:25:33  <kamnet> Interesting: BNSF is the world's largest private consumer of diesel, gasoline and other petroleum products. It is second globally behind the United States Navy.
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19:29:01  <frosch123> i would have expected some airline
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19:30:07  <Samu> hi
19:30:25  <Samu> AMD plays transport tycoon
19:33:53  <soupy> So, I'm trying to figure out what my standard train length should be.  I've gone over it a few times, and the only upside I can see to having more than 4 spaces long is less actual vehicles.
19:34:26  <andythenorth> V453000: 32bpp FIRS?
19:34:34  <TartarusMkII> Isn't there some kind of bonus to having a station 4 sspaces or larger?
19:34:35  * andythenorth considers replying in the thread
19:34:46  <soupy> Seems to me that smaller trains are way better.  They improve station ratings, faster service, and can move goods much faster.
19:35:03  <Alberth> they lack capacity
19:35:07  <andythenorth> not per hour
19:35:10  <andythenorth> or whatever
19:35:16  <andythenorth> capacity only matters as a rate measure
19:35:17  <soupy> I don't think there's a bonus for having a larger station, but there is a penalty if your train is longer than the platform.
19:35:33  <andythenorth> or capacity matters because long trains look cool
19:35:38  <andythenorth> and mess up your network
19:35:46  <soupy> Right...
19:35:47  <Alberth> andythenorth: ok, you need more platforms?
19:35:52  <andythenorth> yair
19:35:55  <andythenorth> or just 2
19:36:00  <andythenorth> and some kind of holding thing
19:36:23  <soupy> I really would love to have huge long trains pummeling down the tracks, but it just doesn't make any sense as far as gameplay goes.
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19:37:18  <Alberth> you can do that with feeders
19:37:57  <Alberth> short trains from industry to a central point, then long trains to some further away destination
19:37:59  <andythenorth> 1 tile trains are best :P
19:38:04  <andythenorth> continous flow
19:38:13  <Alberth> andythenorth: hmm, running costs,perhaps ?
19:38:37  <andythenorth> maybe
19:38:41  <andythenorth> also bedtime :)
19:38:44  <andythenorth> bye
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19:39:02  <Alberth> bye andy :)
19:39:23  <soupy> I still haven't scienced the whole "transfer" thing.  How the paychecks work with timing, etc..
19:39:56  <Alberth> clock starts running when loading cargo
19:40:10  <Alberth> faster delivery == more money
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19:40:50  <Alberth> clock stops when you unload or transfer
19:41:46  <Alberth> payment is at the end of the feeder chain, but you get virtual payments for the vehicles along the way, so they don't go into the red
19:42:04  <soupy> So if we had A feeding B, which is transferred and taken to destination C, there's no time penalty for how long it sits at B?
19:42:40  <Alberth> no, but there is station rating. if it drops too low, cargo disappears
19:45:57  <soupy> Well I guess that makes sense.
19:48:58  <soupy> Huh, you only start losing cargo at <50% station rating... That should be easy to maintain.
19:49:18  <Samu> slope steepness
19:49:23  <soupy> Beginning to think trucks might have a use after all.
19:49:47  <Samu> put 10% on it
19:49:58  <Samu> create some alpinist kind of map
19:50:05  <Samu> and see trains cry
19:50:13  <Alberth> soupy: I don't care about money at all, it's dead easy to get loads of it
19:50:30  <soupy> This is true.
19:51:44  <Samu> i just don't like multi-engines defeating the purpose of slope steepness
19:52:50  <Alberth> but it looks great, several steam engines pulling up a train along the hill
19:53:33  <Alberth> imho the purpose of slope steepness is making multi-engines required
19:54:05  <Samu> :(
19:54:27  <Alberth> why? you rather want to do it with just one?
19:55:33  <Samu> slope steepness would force either shorter trains or look into an alternative type of transportation
19:55:51  <Samu> trucks
19:56:14  <Alberth> there is nothing stopping you from doing so
19:57:28  <Samu> or if intending to use long trains, then more careful route plan
19:58:03  <Samu> tunnels, bridge, going around a hill
19:59:42  <Samu> if i recall this was the topic that got me banned
19:59:53  <soupy> Generally by the time I've gotten far enough in that my infrastructure really matters, I have enough money to just terraform everything anyway. :)
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20:05:54  <Alberth> Samu: there is nothing stopping from doing so
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20:27:57  <__ln__>
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20:35:58  <soupy> Does the available airport list rely on anything other than the year?  Yesterday I found that I had the late-game aircraft, but the biggest airport I was allowed to build was a commuter, not nearly big enough.
20:38:06  <soupy> Aaand I just noticed the dropdown at the top of the airport building window
20:38:34  <Alberth> :)
20:39:34  <planetmaker> soupy, all the default airports have no other criterion than the game year for availability limits
20:40:04  <soupy> Aye, turns out I'm an idiot.
20:40:07  <planetmaker> but in principle it could be climate or other stuff, too, when NewGRFs change them. But I know of no such NewGRF (OpenGFX+ airports doesn't change availability)
20:40:48  <planetmaker> idiots are fools who don't learn. You just didn't see a (tiny) button. And OpenTTD has many
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20:41:01  <soupy> Quite true.
20:41:54  <Alberth> not to mention all the hidden ones :p
20:42:12  <Wolf01> 'night
20:42:15  <planetmaker> yep, many of those, too :)
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20:42:18  <planetmaker> g'night, Wolf01
20:43:11  <TartarusMkII> Hi again, guys. Is there a quick way to replace a vehicle with a new model and have it keep its orders, or no?
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20:43:40  <planetmaker> there is. Autorenew (same model) or autoreplace (different model)
20:44:26  <planetmaker> and
20:44:41  <TartarusMkII> Thankyou planetmaker =)
20:44:47  <planetmaker> it should be unified really. but isn't (yet?)
20:45:50  <Alberth> lots of things 'should' :)
20:45:59  <planetmaker> yup :)
20:49:30  <TartarusMkII> So, I made a dock next to an oil refinery with a ship dock thing, made an oil tanker, gave it orders to go to an oil field, then go to the refinery, but when it goes to the oilfield, it just turns around and never picks anything up. Thoughts?
20:50:39  <Alberth> oil only gets delivered (and accepted, for that matter)  at a few tiles
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20:50:49  <Alberth> maybe your dock is out of reach?
20:51:00  <TartarusMkII> the dock says Accepts: Oil
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20:51:11  <TartarusMkII> But it's not even picking up the oil from the oilfield to begin with =v
20:51:18  <planetmaker> does it have full load orders? was it the first trip?
20:51:30  <TartarusMkII> it was the first trip, but it did have full load orders
20:51:45  <Alberth> accepts is at the refinery side, isn't it ?
20:51:59  <TartarusMkII> Yes
20:52:08  <Alberth> which is not 'pickup' :)
20:52:08  <TartarusMkII> Okay now the ship is loading up for what ever reason. Oh well =x
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20:52:44  <chillcore> when playing with cargodist you make an empty trip to establish a route ... once the route exist it will start picking up cargo too ;)
20:52:58  <chillcore> as you just found out xD
20:53:04  <TartarusMkII> interesting. thanks
20:53:17  <Alberth> not really needed, you just have to wait for cdist to pick up the route
20:53:22  <chillcore> your welcome
20:53:39  <Alberth> and going through the route empty is one way to spend that time :)
20:53:54  <chillcore> ah it reads the orders without making the trip now ... cool
20:54:18  <Alberth> it monitors orders being changed
20:54:27  <chillcore> nice nice
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20:54:40  <Alberth> but calculation starts every X days, and takes Y days
20:54:54  <Alberth> so it takes a while before you notice it
20:54:56  <TartarusMkII> So, how do I get the oil from the docks to the refinery? do I need to set it as a transfer order? and then what? It's already in range (as it says it accepts oil)
20:55:31  <Alberth> build a second dock
20:55:46  <Alberth> but you won't make any worthwhile money
20:55:56  <Alberth> as transport distance is ~0  :)
20:56:15  <TartarusMkII> It would generate goods though, no?
20:56:16  <Alberth> gn
20:56:23  <Alberth> sure
20:56:35  <chillcore> good night alberth
20:56:39  <TartarusMkII> I'm confused, why the second dock would be necessary since it's already connected
20:56:44  <TartarusMkII> but thanks I appreciate your help so far!
20:56:57  <soupy> Thanks for the help Alberth
20:57:09  <Alberth> you cannot deliver cargo to the originating station
20:57:40  <TartarusMkII> Ther'es only one dock involved, and it's connected to the refinery already which is why it says it accepts oil, I thought
20:57:52  <Alberth> to not totally mess up your transport, make sure the 2nd dock is out of reach of the oil field
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20:58:19  <TartarusMkII> Does anyone else know how I mean? =x
20:59:10  <TartarusMkII> Oh nevermind, it does seem tohave worked, just took more time.
20:59:40  <TartarusMkII> I just wonder why the goods that the refinery produces is not seen by the docks
21:00:35  <chillcore> you do not have a vehicle picking up the goods there?
21:01:12  <TartarusMkII> So until I make a vehicle like a goods carrier pick up from the dock (or with a truck stop attached for example) they won't even appear?
21:03:00  <luaduck> is there any chance max_heightlevel could be made an unlocked cvar so we can change it in the middle of network games?
21:03:19  <luaduck> we're stuck on 60 at the moment and everyone's complaining
21:05:43  <Supercheese> jeez, must be some steeeep slopes
21:05:54  <Supercheese> that or a huge map
21:09:06  <chillcore> luaduck ... changing it midgame is a bad idea ...
21:09:28  <luaduck> either that or have it tied to the map
21:10:02  <chillcore> I have my opinion about that setting ... noone agrees
21:10:04  <luaduck> ie have it saved with the save file at generation time
21:10:48  <chillcore> anyhoo ... what is it you want to do?
21:11:02  <chillcore> higher lower?
21:11:02  <planetmaker> luaduck, changing the max height level in the middle of a network game will not be possible. It's newgrf-readable, thus changing that is a desync cause
21:11:10  <chillcore> ^^^
21:11:10  <luaduck> peg it back down to 30 for the next map
21:11:16  <luaduck> yeah I guess you're right planetmaker
21:11:23  <chillcore> that you can do yes
21:11:46  <chillcore> or use some heightmaps ;)
21:11:47  <luaduck> right now I'm going to have to be awake at 5am for the next map cycle to kill the server, change it in openttd.cfg, then restart
21:11:56  <chillcore> someone must know how to rotate them
21:12:06  <chillcore> without shutting down the server
21:12:21  <planetmaker> you can rcon set the mapgen variables
21:12:40  <luaduck> except max_heightlevel can't be rcon set
21:12:47  <planetmaker> or newgame.XXX or something like that
21:13:12  <planetmaker> not those of the existing. It's a difference
21:13:36  <luaduck> unless you think tweaking the generation settings is a better idea than directly modifying the heightlevel
21:14:06  <planetmaker> change config, reload config
21:15:09  <luaduck> won't that just ignore the config file when it reloads because it's a cvar that can't be changed while the server's live?
21:15:42  <planetmaker>  !rcon list_settings. Find the one which relates to newgames and heightlevel. Change that
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21:15:56  <luaduck> lol
21:16:35  <luaduck> wait am I being an oldfag, is reload_cfg an option
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21:24:05  <chillcore> luaduck: no idea about reloading configs
21:24:13  <chillcore>
21:24:25  <luaduck> just complains about it being a network game
21:24:37  <luaduck> unless I'm missing something
21:24:48  <luaduck> I pushed it to the config and set reload_cfg on
21:24:54  <luaduck> will see if it works tonight
21:25:37  <chillcore> I am really sorry for the mapgeneration results ... I feel responsable :/
21:25:59  <chillcore> hope it works out for you ;)
21:27:09  <chillcore> if you need heightmaps with big playable mountains give me a buzz
21:27:38  <kamnet> Damnit Supercheese, quit ruining my dreams!!!
21:27:53  <Supercheese> Sorry, I just tried with a test grf
21:27:59  <Supercheese> and it does not work
21:28:03  <Supercheese> :(
21:28:37  <Supercheese>  aerotrain would be perfectly viable as a new railtype though
21:28:54  <kamnet> wel, yeah, that's easy enough. :D
21:29:27  <kamnet> (well, easy enough for somebody familiar with coding trains)
21:29:41  <kamnet> (which isn't me. I just dream crap up only for people to shoot it down!)
21:30:08  <kamnet> CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! *rips clothes off*
21:32:16  <Supercheese> Calm down there Monty ;)
21:33:52  * chillcore really has to resist giving luaduck a modified version that allows vanilla players
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21:41:02  <TartarusMkII> I am having an issue with Auto Renew. I am concerned that I am asking all of my busses to convert to Leopard Busses, even the Leopard Busses I already have. I keep getting messages from the busses saying autorenew failed (money limit) but I have like, 0,000. What is wrong? =s
21:42:25  <glx> and what is the limit you set for autorenew ?
21:43:13  <TartarusMkII> I don't see anything about setting a limit =x
21:43:21  <TartarusMkII> And I am not even trying to renew, just replace.
21:44:16  <TartarusMkII> I used the road vehicles menu on AllVehicles (because I dont have all of my Regals in one section), then click manage list to replace, then clic kregal bus to leopard bus, then I click Start Replacing, then I used the road vehicles manager to "send for maintenance" seemingly on the whole list (which I'm oka ywith, just to learn how this works)
21:45:57  <TartarusMkII> I tried to do this for my oil tankers too, and they just are not doing it.
21:46:12  <TartarusMkII> In the menu I see the arrow circle which seems to denote that they are pending replacement..
21:46:19  <glx> when autorenew is enabled every old vehicle are renewed to new one of same model when visiting depot (depends on autorenew settings)
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21:46:23  <TartarusMkII> but they don't seem to be replacing when they go to depots, since these old things are constantly exploding
21:47:09  <glx> auto replace is done for all models ignoring age
21:47:27  <glx> of course following the auto replace rules you set
21:47:36  <TartarusMkII> where do I set such rules?
21:47:50  <TartarusMkII> now it says autorenew failed on ship 6 (money limit), but I ahve 4,000 lol
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21:48:18  <glx> the money limit is somewhere in the game settings
21:49:04  <TartarusMkII> Okay I found it, so lets see..
21:50:00  <TartarusMkII> Nah, this autorenew stuff in the option is not what I mean.
21:50:20  <TartarusMkII>
21:50:21  <TartarusMkII> I mean this.
21:50:38  <glx> then ignore the autorenew messages :)
21:50:45  <glx> they are not related
21:50:53  <NGC3982>
21:51:41  <TartarusMkII> I appreciate the help anyway ^^; but is any other advice available?
21:52:01  <TartarusMkII> NGC3982: wow that looks awesome what game is that
21:52:40  <glx> The company needs to have more money than (autoreplace money limit) + 2 * (price for new vehicles).
21:52:40  <glx>
21:52:40  <glx>     Auto Replace does not consider the sell price of old vehicles.
21:52:40  <glx>     The auto replace money limit is the same limit as the Autorenew minimum needed money configured in Advanced Settings.
21:52:48  <NGC3982> TartarusMkII: Cities Skylines.
21:54:03  <glx> so what is the limit in the settings ?
21:54:04  <TartarusMkII> Oh I'm gonna buy that soon
21:54:59  <TartarusMkII> ok lets see.
21:55:06  <chillcore> good night all
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21:55:40  <TartarusMkII> glx: the limit for me is 200,000 so I guess it would make sense then, that the game required +2* the price
21:55:59  <TartarusMkII> I guess I can lower it for my own self a bit since I don't like to have so much liquid casherino
21:56:22  <glx> you can lower the limit yes
21:57:15  <TartarusMkII> Thanks I appreciate it =D
21:57:46  <TartarusMkII> In the world generation, what is "variety distribution"?
21:59:39  <glx>
21:59:46  <TartarusMkII> oh thanks man, I apologize
21:59:53  <TartarusMkII> I am not used to wikis as good as the one we have for OTDD
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22:18:01  <Supercheese> Hmmm, should the Seaplane version of the airport have lower maintenance costs...?
22:18:08  <Supercheese> it is mostly water, after all
22:23:15  <Supercheese> Oh wow, the Small airport is already at minimum maintenance costs when using Av8...
22:23:34  <Supercheese> unless it can go negative
22:25:41  <Supercheese> Guess I won't mess with it then
22:26:22  <Supercheese> It's a shame that airports do not have an animation trigger for "When airplane lands"
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22:31:50  <ChrisM> Is it right that a path signal reserves the track including the next signal if it's a block signal, but doesn't reserve that track if it's another path signal?
22:32:09  <kamnet> Yes
22:32:45  <ChrisM> Thanks
22:34:26  <ChrisM> Why are they treated differently?
22:36:04  <kamnet> Block signals are a holdover from TTD, retained in part for backwards compatability. PBS is a new signal system on top of it.
22:37:02  <ChrisM> Ah
22:37:34  <ChrisM> Entry/exit signals are treated like the block signals too
22:37:49  <ChrisM> It's not a big deal, I think I just to need to stick in another signal (:
22:41:07  <kamnet> I typically only play with PBS.
22:44:24  <ChrisM> I'm mixing them to do a priority merge
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23:41:08  <TartarusMkII> Hey guys, question. I put train depots in a lot of places along a long train line so that there'd be close by places to fix problems. But my trains still prefer one specific depot (that isn't even the oldest or anything), and I don't know why.
23:41:10  <TartarusMkII> Is this normal, or no
23:42:11  <supermop> yo
23:44:09  <TartarusMkII> o/
23:44:55  <Supercheese> I'm not sure, you don't order them to go to a specific depot do you?
23:45:53  <TartarusMkII> no. WHen they break down, sometimes they just keep going, but sometimes they need to go to a depot first, and they seem to choose not the closest one for this.
23:48:56  <Supercheese> Ah, I do not enable breakdowns, so I can't help you there
23:49:05  <TartarusMkII> why do you choose to do that?
23:50:37  <TartarusMkII> Also, is there anything I can do to help industries produce more stuff? Like woods creating wood?
23:55:28  <Supercheese> With the default industries, you must get as high a %cargo transported as possible
23:55:53  <glx> and always have a vehicle waiting
23:55:57  <Supercheese> So, build a station nearby and take cargo, trying to ensure there's always one vehicle loading in the station at all times
23:56:01  <Supercheese> ninja'd
23:56:05  <Supercheese> grr
23:56:28  <Supercheese> also try and use the fastest vehicles possible
23:58:16  <glx> and industries prefer young vehicles too IIRC
23:58:33  <Supercheese> yes, but there's not much to be done there
23:58:43  <Supercheese> could build statues too if you have the $$$

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