Log for #openttd on 24th May 2015:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:05:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i have my doubts it happened that way :p
00:05:40  <frosch123> well, whenever a show was run by the same guy for > 20 years, the show died when they retired
00:05:44  <frosch123> so, there is hope :p
00:07:49  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, the first one he commented was in 1997 :p
00:09:12  <Eddi|zuHause> and he missed the one in 2009
00:10:40  <frosch123> did he appologise for that in 2010?
00:11:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have that memorized, and it doesn't say in the text that google gave me :p
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02:22:50  <supermop> yo
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06:02:36  <andythenorth> moin
06:02:50  <peter1138> yes
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06:03:03  <Pikka> very
06:03:14  <Alberth> great trucks pikka
06:03:20  <Pikka> thankyou :)
06:03:43  <Alberth> V will be very happy with yeti transport :)
06:04:07  <Pikka> I put them in the trains, figured I shouldn't leave them out of the rvs ;)
06:04:44  <Alberth> you should add a steering wheel, so he can drive himself :)
06:04:57  <Alberth> perhaps a bit too much V :)
06:13:44  <andythenorth> Duel tanker
06:13:46  <andythenorth> nice
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06:17:34  <Flygon> Hey, dumb question
06:17:39  <Flygon> Since y'all technical folk
06:17:54  <Flygon> CUETools is giving me shit about the following
06:17:56  <Flygon> <Flygon> Exception: Index was out of range. Must be non-negative and
06:17:57  <Flygon> <Flygon> less than the size of the collection.
06:17:57  <Flygon> <Flygon> Parameter name: index
06:18:18  <Flygon> Now, I'm presuming it's confused because something some such happened wth the .bin and the .cue somehow being a bit off
06:18:27  <Flygon> Even tho they burn completely perfectly in ImgBurn
06:18:40  <Flygon> Anyone got any ideas how to fix this?
06:21:46  <andythenorth> new refinery
06:22:39  <Flygon> Ooh
06:22:42  <Flygon> I like it!
06:26:34  <Alberth> nice andy
06:27:20  <andythenorth> eh Dan did it
06:27:37  <andythenorth> cut-copy-paste of existing sprites
06:29:44  <Alberth> fair enough :)
06:29:54  <andythenorth> trying to eliminate industries using base set sprites
06:31:52  * andythenorth wonders when FIRS32 will be done
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06:37:38  <andythenorth> bbl
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08:19:10  <Pikka> hmm
08:19:14  <Pikka> is not loading for anyone else?
08:20:00  <Taede> loads for me
08:21:22  <Rubidium> can't say it isn't loading for me
08:21:29  <Pikka> how odd
08:21:39  <Pikka> thanks guys
08:22:12  <Rubidium> maybe it's the Australian internet filter?
08:23:28  <Flygon> Hahaha
08:23:37  <Flygon> We'll never live it down
08:23:38  <Flygon> :(
08:24:58  <Flygon> Yep
08:25:04  <Flygon> Ripped very well, hahaha
08:25:06  <Flygon> No pregaps :D
08:28:20  <Flygon> ...
08:28:25  <Flygon> I said that to the wrong channel
08:28:27  <Flygon> Sorry, guys.
08:28:41  <Flygon> (been trying to rip the damn music off this AoE CD all afternoon)
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08:38:50  <Wolf01> O7
08:38:52  <Wolf01> O/
08:39:08  <Wolf01> uhm, I have a big head today
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09:47:48  <Alberth> hihi
09:48:22  <andythenorth> lo
09:48:27  <andythenorth> so 32 cargos per newgrf then?
09:56:19  <Alberth> you'd want to have several industry newgrfs loaded?
10:00:51  <andythenorth> dunno
10:01:20  <andythenorth> for FIRS, the main justification for this is sandboxing
10:01:28  <andythenorth> it clears up the mess with default vehicles
10:01:32  <andythenorth> which is really quite broken
10:02:11  <andythenorth> I have no interest in > 32 cargos in a game
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10:10:25  <Alberth> obviously you can make two newgrfs
10:10:45  <andythenorth> yes
10:11:01  <andythenorth> or load multiple existing industry newgrfs
10:11:05  <andythenorth> which is a thing people do anyway
10:11:05  <Alberth> what I don't understand the "per newgrf" thing
10:11:16  <Alberth> ECS is even designed that way
10:11:39  <andythenorth> I favoured the ’32 per newgrf’ so I can ignore players who request more :P
10:11:49  <andythenorth> and because limits force better design choices
10:12:15  <Alberth> there is a poll or so?
10:12:17  <andythenorth> nah
10:12:43  <andythenorth> this is down to ‘frosch will decide, or he may decide to do nothing'
10:12:56  <andythenorth> ENoFrosch
10:13:39  <Alberth> but if you don't want > 32 cargoes in a game, why the "per newgrf" ?
10:13:52  <Alberth> you can also say "in total" ?
10:14:05  <andythenorth> hmm, not sure
10:14:19  <andythenorth> proposal was from frosch :)
10:14:21  <andythenorth> iirc
10:14:30  <Alberth> oh, missed that
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10:16:02  <andythenorth> default vehicles are extra-broken with FIRS now
10:16:12  <andythenorth> and there’s no good way to handle the problem
10:16:19  <andythenorth> unless FIRS also includes vehicles
10:16:25  <andythenorth> should FIRS include vehicles? o_O
10:18:23  <Alberth> make a FIRS baseset, like V :)
10:19:02  <andythenorth> interesting idea
10:19:08  <andythenorth> I’d want to ship it included in the grf
10:19:27  <Alberth> check for known compatible vehicle sets, and if missing throw a warning
10:20:38  <andythenorth> nah, chases a moving target :)
10:20:46  <andythenorth> and also might annoy authors who aren’t listed
10:21:13  <andythenorth> also, apparently OpenTTD is already supposed to identify if no vehicles are available for a cargo
10:21:17  <andythenorth> although mine doesn’t
10:22:20  <Taede> just check against any vehicle set being loaded, and check against known incompatible ones
10:22:40  <Taede> that way new ones (which should be compatible) wont require you to add them to the list
10:23:30  <andythenorth> nah
10:23:38  <andythenorth> default vehicles isn’t a set
10:23:44  <andythenorth> so can’t check for that
10:23:44  <andythenorth> :)
10:24:08  <Taede> but you can check if there is no vehicle set loaded at all, presumably?
10:24:15  <andythenorth> nah
10:24:30  <andythenorth> only by having the list of all known vehicle sets
10:24:33  <andythenorth> which isn’t knowable
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10:27:44  <Alberth> iirc, I once tried to check for compatibility, don't remember if it ended up in trunk
10:28:09  <Alberth> it doesn't work nicely, as you have these "all but X" compatibilities
10:29:31  <Alberth> i think we should move to unique ids for cargoes
10:30:19  <Alberth> don't know how feasible that is
10:30:34  <Alberth> maybe it's just fixing default vehicles?
10:31:56  <andythenorth> maybe
10:32:05  <supermop> what am i supposed to use in nars to carry metal etc around
10:32:15  * andythenorth thinks replace default vehicles with a grf :P
10:32:16  <supermop> all these engines look the same to me
10:32:32  <andythenorth> totally isolated, just give the grf a special location and ship it with OpenTTD
10:32:49  <Alberth> it's nice that you can play without any newgrf
10:32:50  <andythenorth> no new code needed, except to handle loading the special grf, and compiling it
10:33:13  <Alberth> and I see no big problems in defining PASS etc for default vehicles
10:33:18  <andythenorth> well yes
10:33:24  <andythenorth> it just means touching OpenTTD code
10:33:32  * andythenorth favours dogfood approach :P
10:34:07  <Alberth> then you never solve the case where a user donwloads eg FIRS, and nothing else
10:34:26  <andythenorth> if OpenTTD ships the default vehicles grf, then it’s solved
10:34:33  <Alberth> even I got tricked by that with OpenGFX+industries
10:34:51  <Alberth> same cargoes, not compatible
10:34:56  <andythenorth> yes
10:35:00  <supermop> all of these freight locomotives go 112kmh going to mess up passenger timetables
10:35:11  <andythenorth> supermop: it’s realism
10:35:50  <supermop> if i wanted to play a realistic nrth american game i'd have no passenger service at all
10:36:28  <andythenorth> Alberth: it’s a problem for all industry sets I think
10:36:42  <andythenorth> my favourite option for FIRS is to disable all default vehicles :P
10:36:48  <andythenorth> sledgehammer, nut :P
10:37:02  <Alberth> would work
10:37:08  <andythenorth> brute force :)
10:37:36  <Alberth> they are totally useless with firs anyway
10:37:51  <Alberth> except pax perhaps
10:38:59  <Alberth> but in my view, we should stop with the cargo slot crap and use ids everywhere
10:39:07  <andythenorth> agreed
10:39:34  <Alberth> maybe add some newgrf-ish feature to map slots and ids onto each other
10:39:45  <Alberth> although that is perhaps the cargo table already
10:40:06  <andythenorth> there are various props for that kind of thing :)
10:40:12  <andythenorth> cargos are not short of properties :)
10:40:47  <Alberth> too much detail for random stuff you throw in trains :p
10:41:34  <andythenorth> +1
10:42:33  <andythenorth> bbl
10:42:36  <Alberth> although I must confess I don't like using a pax ship for transporting coal  :)
10:42:40  <andythenorth> he :)
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10:59:49  <Flygon> supermop: Depends
10:59:53  <Flygon> In Victoria?
11:00:05  <Flygon> You'd have the freight locos going faster than pax
11:00:06  <Flygon> :B
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11:27:38  <Alberth> hihi
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11:36:17  <frosch123> yay, new pikka pictures
11:36:26  <frosch123> old trucks with huge yetis on them
11:37:00  <Alberth> they look great :)
11:37:12  <Alberth> no I just have to find time to play with them
11:37:20  <frosch123> the cabin looks a bit small compared to the huge trailers
11:37:54  <frosch123> not sure what the closed vans are for
11:39:53  <Alberth> valuables? :)
11:40:42  <Alberth> or goods or food
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11:49:51  <frosch123> huh, are all depots in the new nuts invisible?
11:50:11  <frosch123> oh, nvm, i guess i broke ottd
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11:53:57  <Pikka> glad you like them, frosch
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12:52:49  <frosch123> V453000: <- it looks different
12:53:10  <frosch123> ignore the dark green, it's only a 8bpp sprite
12:54:59  <frosch123> i have a feeling we may need both, but i have no idea how one would create sprites for that
12:55:50  <frosch123> one could also try to combine them
12:55:51  <V453000> interesting :)
12:55:57  <frosch123> black - cc begin - cc end - white
12:59:55  <V453000> regarding the look it looks like the contrast is lost but idk how much it can be worked with :)
13:00:13  <frosch123> well, that is also a matter of the sprites
13:00:33  <frosch123> previously 0 was black, now 0 is the dark shade or cc gradient
13:01:42  <V453000> yeah
13:02:17  <V453000> shouldnt 0 stay black/very dark though ? :P
13:03:08  <frosch123> as dark as the original vehicle s:p
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13:04:54  <andythenorth> quak
13:05:11  <TrueBrain> you are a plane?
13:05:27  <andythenorth> a bird
13:05:40  <TrueBrain> ah!
13:12:24  <frosch123> V453000: <- some intermediate thign
13:12:49  <V453000> better :)
13:12:58  <V453000> the idea imo shouldnt be to kill contrast, just to allow more CC shades :)
13:14:55  <frosch123> well, you cannot adjust the algorithm using a single engine sprite :p
13:15:54  <V453000> sure
13:16:05  <frosch123> zbase bridges become a lot brighter in both new algorithms
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13:16:51  <V453000> mhm
13:17:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that giant eye looks creeeeeeepy
13:17:36  <frosch123> no, cute
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13:25:48  <andythenorth> iron ore mine
13:25:52  <andythenorth> default one is daft
13:26:10  <andythenorth> not everything has to be in scale, but still
13:26:32  <andythenorth> it’s too small for an open pit mine
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13:30:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it wasn't an open pit mine in TTO
13:31:05  <Eddi|zuHause> those graphics were used for the copper mine in TTD, which always confused me
13:31:44  <Eddi|zuHause> whenever i see a copper mine, i think iron ore mine
13:32:45  <andythenorth> FIRS reuses the copper mine sprites for bauxite :)
13:32:46  <andythenorth> also
13:32:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:33:02  <Eddi|zuHause> which doesn't make this easier :p
13:33:34  <andythenorth> Dan has mocked up a deep-mine layout for iron ore mine
13:34:23  * andythenorth looking for photos for inspiration
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13:43:13  <supermop> maybe just have various generic deep and open mines?
13:43:33  <supermop> then color the piles of stuff outside to whatever it's meant to be
13:45:08  <andythenorth> that’s the direction of travel
13:45:17  <andythenorth> but needs a little more interest / distinction
13:45:45  <andythenorth> FIRS coal mine uses the off-green colour, same as default
13:45:55  <andythenorth>
13:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> we've had endless discussions about colour of bauxite before...
13:46:05  <andythenorth> that yes :)
13:46:10  <andythenorth> CHIPS has it wrong
13:46:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it may make it difficult to distinguish bauxite and iron ore mines
13:46:46  <andythenorth>
13:46:56  <andythenorth> +1
13:49:12  <Alberth> neon-green!
13:50:07  <andythenorth> IRL, underground mines seem rare for bauxite
13:50:09  <andythenorth> I can’t find any :P
13:54:18  <supermop> pre-20th C you could have volcanic mud pits for it
13:54:46  <supermop> as that was pretty much the only pre-modern way to get aluminum
13:55:30  <supermop> i'm playing my first ever NARS game
13:55:43  <supermop> don't care for the american trains
13:56:12  <supermop> mostly just wanted to build some HSR routes with metroliners
14:07:04  <andythenorth> hmm
14:07:05  <andythenorth>
14:07:11  <andythenorth> also
14:07:12  <andythenorth>
14:07:55  <andythenorth> do open pit mines work?
14:08:13  <andythenorth> it would be a PITA to make it look good; worth it?
14:08:29  <Eddi|zuHause> those two look quite alright
14:09:01  <andythenorth> they seem small to me
14:09:06  <andythenorth> even allowing for scale compression
14:09:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the giant excavator might be a bit misplaced
14:09:42  <andythenorth> looks like 9x9
14:09:54  <andythenorth> biggest FIRS industry is probably a 9x7 fruit plantation
14:10:03  <Eddi|zuHause> well, we've had plenty of discussions about industry sizes already
14:10:05  <andythenorth> yes
14:10:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, open pit mines should be giant
14:10:49  <andythenorth> one option would be to draw sprites for every possible slope combination
14:10:52  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to account for some elevation changes in this area
14:11:07  <andythenorth> including options to join to neighbouring tile correctly
14:11:12  <andythenorth> but that is
.much work
14:11:37  <frosch123> andythenorth: if you would do deep mines, you only need piles of different colour outside
14:11:46  <Eddi|zuHause> use always the same sprites, with different height offsets?
14:11:51  <andythenorth> open pit mines are benched, so it’s not implausible to try and draw sprites for them
14:11:52  <frosch123> which should already exist in various station sets
14:12:01  * andythenorth ponders a hack on foundations :O
14:12:07  <andythenorth> custom foundations...
14:12:08  <Eddi|zuHause> except at the rim, maybe
14:12:41  <andythenorth> frosch123: you wouldn’t find it boring to have 3 types of mine, all same colour + sprites, except for cargo?
14:13:12  <frosch123> widelands also only has minimal deviations on the mines
14:13:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think that is an entirely valid approach
14:13:22  <frosch123> like material and maybe roof shape
14:13:42  <andythenorth> I could recolour the buildings at least
14:14:04  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: widelands (or settlers) materials are more obviously distinguished than iron ore and bauxite
14:14:23  <andythenorth> Dan has done this for bauxite, but I dunno
14:14:30  <andythenorth> open pit is tricky
14:14:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that looks both too small and too bland
14:14:59  <andythenorth> drawing the excavated rock is hard
14:15:09  <Alberth> too green, and I doubt you'd see the bauxite
14:15:54  <Eddi|zuHause> green buildings always look off to me
14:16:06  <Eddi|zuHause> ... one of the reasons i don't play with TTRS
14:16:28  <andythenorth> interesting
14:16:39  * andythenorth considers recolouring FIRS quarry buildings
14:16:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (i never even got far enough with TTRS to get annoyed by towns full of skyscrapers)
14:16:52  <andythenorth>
14:17:03  <andythenorth> ^ colour of tropic grass tile
14:17:06  <andythenorth> in proper base set
14:17:36  <Cif> I've compiled openttd trunk with gcc 5.1.0 on Archlinux and I have a small diff to mute a warning, I'm using the git repo, how can I submit a patch?
14:17:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the only green buildings i see, ever, are copper roofs
14:18:22  <andythenorth> different green :P
14:18:36  <andythenorth> I could CC the quarry
14:18:42  <andythenorth> it’s on the list for tweaks anyway
14:19:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds reasonable
14:19:52  <TrueBrain> Cif: by making a patch out of it, and submitting it to
14:22:44  <Alberth> andythenorth: clay pit is fine, it's the green excavator that kills the picture for me
14:23:58  <andythenorth> better in company colour?
14:24:00  <Alberth> and something of a ramp edge at the south-west :)
14:24:26  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the excavator is even worse than the buildings
14:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the empty truck should maybe be sloped
14:24:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and the full truck is practically invisible on that ground
14:24:53  <andythenorth> or moved / removed
14:25:22  <andythenorth> that industry probably has had 2x or 3x more work than any other :)
14:25:37  <andythenorth> for not 2x or 3x better result :)
14:25:47  <Eddi|zuHause> indeed.
14:26:03  <andythenorth> shading the banks :|
14:26:08  <Eddi|zuHause> but one part of the project always uses 90% of the work :p
14:26:24  <andythenorth> standard
14:26:34  <andythenorth> well it’s on a list for repaint + animate
14:26:54  <Eddi|zuHause> the slope doesn't look like much of a slope
14:27:27  <andythenorth> it’s not
14:27:39  <Eddi|zuHause> make the pit deeper, and the slope longer/more distinguished
14:27:46  <andythenorth> shallow excavation
14:28:21  <andythenorth>,_Old_Warden,
14:28:37  <Eddi|zuHause> (and it is still too small for an open pit mine)
14:28:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm talking about the bauxite mine, not the clay pit
14:29:45  <andythenorth> oh yeah
14:29:54  <andythenorth> +1 to that then
14:30:05  <Eddi|zuHause> the clay pit is basically fine
14:30:36  <andythenorth> any kind of open pit mine needs a lot of care
14:30:48  <andythenorth> slopes :|
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14:33:29  <andythenorth> the original TTD iron-ore mine is blatantly a drift mine ;)
14:33:31  <andythenorth> must be
14:33:42  <andythenorth> dunno where the drift is :)
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15:06:24  * andythenorth ponders
15:13:45  * TrueBrain ponders with you
15:19:21  <andythenorth> it helps
15:29:40  * andythenorth dibbles FIRS primary production
15:29:49  <andythenorth> higher for farms
15:30:02  <andythenorth> and greater range of randomisation on construction
15:30:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i just read "disables"
15:30:17  <andythenorth> he
15:30:29  <andythenorth> the values were distorted by me playing too much NoCarGoal
15:31:01  <andythenorth> shame I can’t randomise the production multipler property on build, to vary per cargo
15:31:07  <andythenorth> multiplier *
15:31:57  <Eddi|zuHause> really? i'd have expected that to work individually for each output cargo
15:32:24  <andythenorth> nah
15:32:40  <andythenorth> the production level is changed, not the multiplier
15:32:59  <Eddi|zuHause> then i have no idea how it works at all
15:33:35  <andythenorth> very few of us do
15:36:53  <andythenorth> iirc, monthly production = production level (per industry, default 16) * production multiplier (per cargo) * 8 [9]
15:37:21  <andythenorth> the cb to set prod. level on build sets
prod level
15:39:19  <Eddi|zuHause> so why would you want to vary the production multiplier when it is global=
15:39:21  <Eddi|zuHause> ?
15:39:58  <andythenorth> so e.g. arable farm has prod. multiplier [10, 10]
15:40:03  <andythenorth> grain, sugar beet
15:40:13  <andythenorth> so the two cargos are always produced in same amount, lockstep
15:40:19  <andythenorth> some players don’t like that
15:40:49  <Eddi|zuHause> but changing the multiplier would automatically change the production of ALL industries
15:40:53  <Alberth> randomize amounts on creation?
15:40:55  <andythenorth> production multiplier isn’t global to FIRS, the ‘per cargo’ means defined per cargo at each industry
15:41:02  <andythenorth> sorry for confusion :)
15:41:17  <andythenorth> Alberth: would need a new cb, but yes that’s one option
15:41:21  <Eddi|zuHause> then i still don't understand
15:41:25  <andythenorth> the other is to use the production cb
15:43:19  <Eddi|zuHause> so industries have a production level which is fixed at creation, and a multiplier that is increased/decreased during the game?
15:43:29  <andythenorth> vice versa
15:43:50  <andythenorth> the terminology is known to be confusing :)
15:44:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the multiplier is fixed and the level varies?
15:44:41  <andythenorth> yes
15:44:52  <andythenorth> it’s a neat system :P
15:44:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and you can't vary the level by cargo?
15:45:20  <andythenorth> by using the production cb, it’s relatively trivial
15:45:32  <andythenorth> just means handling the production cb, which is awkward
15:46:37  <andythenorth> FIRS primary industries already do that to handle supplies
15:46:43  <andythenorth> I could poke at that
15:48:00  <andythenorth> probably stick some random multiplier in permanent storage
15:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause> let's conclude that i can't give you any advice on that
15:48:07  <andythenorth> me neither :|
15:48:13  <andythenorth> not my code :)
15:50:02  * andythenorth reads it
15:50:43  <andythenorth> ok, so I could read the prod_multiplier values when the industry is constructed
15:50:56  <andythenorth> add a random -ve/+ve increment
15:51:03  <andythenorth> store that to perm register
15:51:11  <Eddi|zuHause> can you really? sounds like data that is not yet available on construction
15:51:30  <andythenorth> dunno, it’s an industry prop
15:51:52  * andythenorth will test in a bit
15:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> callbacks run during construction usually cannot access such variables
15:52:26  <andythenorth> hmm
15:52:44  <andythenorth> I could read it during production cb
15:52:48  <andythenorth> probably works
15:52:50  <Eddi|zuHause> if callbacks wish to use such data, it must be passed via extra_callback_info1/2
15:52:56  <andythenorth> not even sure it’s adding anything to gameplay :P
15:53:32  <andythenorth> does it matter to have some farms produce more livestock than milk, and vice versa?
15:54:13  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to run combined trains, keeping the values together is preferable
15:54:38  <Eddi|zuHause> if they change separately, then you have to constantly adapt train composition
15:54:59  <Eddi|zuHause> (or use refit at station)
15:55:00  <Alberth> not if you do 'fully load one cargo'
15:55:18  <Alberth> you may run partly empty, but who cares
15:55:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that only helps prevent short-term lockups, but it's still inefficient
15:56:11  * andythenorth favours leaving it alone
15:56:20  <Eddi|zuHause> part of the problem is that production always makes these double/half jumps
15:56:39  <andythenorth> nah, not in FIRS
15:57:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so every production change must be met with a capacity change. you can't have sensible reserves
15:57:43  <Eddi|zuHause> tbh, i haven't played with modern FIRS yet
15:57:54  <andythenorth> it has the same problem, but mediated by supplies
15:58:19  <andythenorth> single -> double -> quadruple production
15:58:30  <andythenorth> hitting quadruple means a lot more infrastructure / vehicles
15:58:54  <andythenorth> and unless the networks are totally segregated, any failure to deliver supplies causes total deadlock
15:59:35  <andythenorth> it’s valid for playing NoCarGoal in 3-hour multiplayer games
15:59:38  <andythenorth> but otherwise not
15:59:53  <andythenorth> suggestions?
16:00:27  <andythenorth> my notes are ‘more options, on player parameter: linear, geometric’ :P
16:01:04  <Alberth> while I usually don't bother with supplies, I can see the value in the mechanism
16:01:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i think supplies should be sublinear
16:01:27  <Alberth> it forces players to handle big variations in transport capacity
16:01:35  <Eddi|zuHause> if you double the supplies, you don't get double the production
16:01:47  <Alberth> at least, if you are prepared to move everything you get
16:02:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and supplies should be less dependent on timetables
16:02:05  <andythenorth> they are sub-linear currently
16:02:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so when you deliver supplies <whenever>, the effect should degrade over time, not suddenly disappear when a delivery fails
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16:03:34  <andythenorth> I considered extending the window
16:03:48  <andythenorth> with a ramp-down
16:03:49  <Eddi|zuHause> that probably does not help
16:04:32  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe good would be an s-curved decay
16:05:03  <andythenorth> what about ramped production?
16:05:09  <andythenorth> hmm
16:05:12  <Alberth> just do a linear ramp-down?
16:05:12  <andythenorth> nah, annoying latency
16:05:23  <Eddi|zuHause> if delivery of supplies was less than 1 month ago, little decay, between 1-3 months steadily climbing decay, after that, decay is dropped drastically, but not quite disappears
16:05:33  <andythenorth> (ramping production up would be annoying)
16:05:47  <Eddi|zuHause> what is "ramped"?
16:06:24  <andythenorth> same as your proposal for decay, but linear
16:06:32  <andythenorth> same concept
16:06:33  <Eddi|zuHause> basically my suggestion would work somewhat like the default station rating
16:06:35  <andythenorth> different curve
16:06:40  <Alberth> in the initial yeti programming, I once programmed that you needed 10 production iterations to get rid of the collected input cargo, it has the effect that out is not immediate, which is nice, imho
16:08:18  <Eddi|zuHause> a delayed effect of increase would work this way as well
16:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause> so delivering supplies increases a maximum value, and the production slowly increases to this maximum
16:08:45  <andythenorth> delayed effect doesn’t show you what production amount you need capacity for :)
16:08:53  <andythenorth> hmm
16:09:00  <andythenorth> industry window text is the main problem here :|
16:09:02  <Alberth> perhaps use X amount of provided supplies / month, if you get more, you get high production longer
16:09:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the maximum decays if delivery is not repeated
16:10:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the current mechanism is probably fine for certain play styles, so don't just throw it out
16:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause> example: production output may be any value between 100% and 400%. sum of supplies deliveries during last 3 months (rolling average) sets the maximum production also to a value between 100% to 400%. production value changes by +/-1% in each production cycle towards the current maximum
16:17:02  <Eddi|zuHause> this means, if supplies delivery disappears, maximum production drops down to 100% in 3 months, but production output will be higher than 100% for a longer time
16:18:15  <Eddi|zuHause> this also means, you can have random events that increase/decrease the production output (with their effect vanishing over time if not met with a change in supplies delivery)
16:19:14  <andythenorth> not planning to throw out the current mechanic, it’s battle tested
16:19:20  <andythenorth> I want to offer one or more alternatives
16:19:36  <andythenorth> and not just some ‘change values here’ parameters that will baffle most players :P :)
16:20:33  <andythenorth> ok so rolling average
16:20:46  <andythenorth> assume ‘requirement’ is 60t / month for 400% production (example values)
16:20:48  <Eddi|zuHause> this separation between current and maximum output factors may also be used for secondary industries
16:21:26  <andythenorth> if 3 month rolling average is 45t, produce this month at 300%
16:21:26  <andythenorth> ?
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16:22:02  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you deliver a steel mill with only ore, production will be 100%. if you start delivering coal as well, max production will be 200%, but actual production will slowly rise from 100% to 200%
16:23:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how to come from "amount of supplies delivered" to "x%" is a different issue
16:23:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: say i have never delivered supplies before. then max and current output is 100%
16:23:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then i deliver 60t supplies
16:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: max immediately jumps to 400%, but current is 101%, 102%, 103% in each 256-tick production step
16:25:20  <Eddi|zuHause> after 3 months, there were about 25 production steps, so production is 125%
16:25:30  <andythenorth> that is somewhat like original FIRS
16:25:31  <andythenorth> ish
16:25:33  <Eddi|zuHause> if i never delivered supplies again
16:26:02  <Eddi|zuHause> then max would drop to 100%, but production goes 124%, 123%, ...
16:26:50  <andythenorth> how to explain to players?
16:27:32  <Eddi|zuHause> effect of supplies on production: immediate [current]/delayed[new]
16:27:48  <Alberth> if you deliver more, production will rise, but slowly
16:27:52  <Eddi|zuHause> or "on production boost"
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16:29:11  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: old FIRS was different, because it relied on the builtin randomized production changes. there is nothing randomized in this proposal
16:32:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: with this 1% change, going from 100% to 200% takes about a year
16:33:02  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe dropping can be accelerated to 2%
16:34:25  <Eddi|zuHause> or dropping is 1% if between 100 and 150%, 2% if between 150% and 200%, 3% if between 200% and 250%, ... then missing delivery may have a bigger impact on higher levels
16:35:30  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's still not immediately causing a deadlock
16:39:29  <Eddi|zuHause> if a farm is hit by a random event that halves production, then on original 100% production, it takes half a year to recover. if you were on 400%, (and thus dropped to 200%) it takes 2 years to recover
16:39:43  <andythenorth> so this is labelled ‘gradualist’ or something
16:40:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't come up with that word :p
16:40:08  <andythenorth> I am not planning to actually ship FIRS 2 for some time, so this could be implemented and tested
16:40:12  <andythenorth> provide a better word :)
16:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "effect of supplies on production: {immediate|gradual}" could work
16:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think this proposal is difficult to implement
16:48:02  <andythenorth> no
16:48:12  <andythenorth> needs handling in a few cbs
16:48:20  <andythenorth> text is the hardest part :P
16:49:37  <Eddi|zuHause> text: "current production level is X% {({increasing|decreasing} towards Y% due to {surplus|shortage} of supplies)}"
16:50:33  <Eddi|zuHause> where each {} is a nested sub-string that needs pushing to the stack
16:51:09  <Eddi|zuHause> if X==Y, then the second part is omitted
16:51:37  <Eddi|zuHause> if X>Y then the second part contains decreasing/shortage
16:51:47  <Eddi|zuHause> if X<Y then the second part contains increasing/surplus
16:52:17  <Eddi|zuHause> can be done in one switch, if X and Y are cached in storage
16:54:00  <Eddi|zuHause> may be easier in two steps, where the first one checks for X==Y
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17:02:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something along these lines:
17:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, "STORE_TEMP," should read "STORE_TEMP("
17:07:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the string would then be something like "current production level is {0:NUM} ({2:STRING} towards {1:NUM} due to {3:STRING})"
17:07:48  <andythenorth>
17:08:03  <andythenorth> kids bath time, bad time to test this :)
17:08:09  <andythenorth> but I’ve added the issue
17:09:37  <Eddi|zuHause> one would assume kids at some point learn to bathe by themselves :p
17:10:12  <Eddi|zuHause> (possibly after flooding the living room once) :p
17:11:13  <Eddi|zuHause> (including water dropping through the downstairs neighbours' ceiling)
17:15:39  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what is about this mechanic that appeals to you?
17:15:43  <andythenorth> + it
17:16:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that it is less dependent on exact timetabling. you just sort of throw things at the industry and it balances out at some value
17:18:05  <andythenorth> what will be the effect on capacity for picking up cargo?
17:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause> same as now, if you're efficient at supplies delivery, production will end up at 400%
17:19:35  <andythenorth> you’ll spend more time adding ‘one more wagon’ to trains or ‘one more truck’ for RVs?
17:20:05  * andythenorth wonders why we grow industry production
17:20:13  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not. you balance for the expected final volume
17:20:20  <andythenorth> on a tiny map it makes sense for gameplay, because you run out of things to connect
17:20:40  <andythenorth> would static industry production be better on larger maps?
17:21:02  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: low starting production is better when starting out. you're not immediately swamped with cargo
17:21:11  <andythenorth> also vehicles improve
17:21:16  <andythenorth> speed, capacity per tile
17:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: once you get a decent network going, you have more money to invest
17:21:30  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and can invest that in improved capacity
17:21:42  <andythenorth> ok, so I can rule out ‘static’ as a supplies mechanic
17:21:51  <andythenorth> would be daft
17:22:19  <Eddi|zuHause> probably
17:22:42  <andythenorth> already achievable: just don’t deliver
17:22:45  <Eddi|zuHause> there would also be no point in having supplies in the first place :p
17:23:32  <Eddi|zuHause> also, people would just increase production by placing more industries nearby
17:25:01  <andythenorth> that’s actually what I tend to do now
17:25:09  <andythenorth> transporting supplies is quite tedious
17:25:17  <andythenorth> and cdist isn’t very good at routing them
17:25:57  <Alberth> make them valuables?
17:27:30  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you could have a mode where you remove supplies, and reinstate the original randomized growth algorithm
17:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but i wouldn't use that :p
17:29:38  <andythenorth> me neither
17:29:45  <andythenorth> it never quite worked satisfactorily
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17:49:32  <andythenorth> so Supplies Effect:  Gradual | Immediate (Gentle) |  Immediate (Aggressive)
17:49:41  <andythenorth> current version is aggressive
17:49:54  <Eddi|zuHause> what then is "gentle"?
17:50:37  <Eddi|zuHause> also, like i said, the gradual effect might also be useful on secondary industries
17:51:11  <Eddi|zuHause> where the range may be 25% to 100% (of input cargo converted)
17:56:00  <argoneus> WE ARE THE HEROES OF OUR TIME
17:56:03  <argoneus> WHOO HOO HAA HOO
17:56:17  <argoneus> WHOA HOO WHOA HAA
18:00:32  <andythenorth> gentle is the 2x, 4x mechanic, but the values changed to 1.5x and 3x or so
18:00:41  <andythenorth> and the window is maybe relaxed
18:00:52  <andythenorth> I find providing 4x the capacity is tedious :P
18:01:28  * andythenorth wonders about delivering annually :P
18:03:50  <Alberth> once in the entire game :p
18:04:00  <andythenorth> that too
18:04:12  <andythenorth> ach, 3% battery :(
18:04:21  * andythenorth needs to deliver electricity
18:04:31  <Alberth> add a power plant :p
18:12:42  <andythenorth> should there be a variant where supplies have unbounded effect?
18:12:55  <andythenorth> (subject to newgrf spec production limit)
18:13:03  <Alberth> unbounded?
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18:13:16  <andythenorth> currently max production is 4x default
18:13:29  <andythenorth> that was a gameplay choice
18:13:49  <andythenorth> I don’t think it’s interesting to deal with thousands of tonnes of output at a single industry
18:14:17  <Alberth> people do it the other way around :)
18:15:02  <Alberth> but you can just ignore the production
18:17:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe have two settings. one for the gradual/immediate method, and one for the maximum production multiplier
18:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> so people could have 1600% multiplier if they wish
18:17:47  <andythenorth> wondering about that
18:18:02  <andythenorth> I dislike that kind of parameter, but it might be valid here
18:18:36  <Eddi|zuHause> (possibly required supplies would grow with this value)
18:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> (or even have another setting for that)
18:19:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: two separate settings are imho better than combining unrelated things
18:20:50  <andythenorth> I think my dislike is that it stops being a plain choice, and starts being an economic exercise
18:21:07  <andythenorth> basically, like going to IKEA
18:21:18  <andythenorth> without the upside of bad sausages and good mustard
18:21:40  <Eddi|zuHause> what's there to have against horse sausage? :p
18:21:54  <andythenorth> never knowingly tried horse :)
18:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember ever being at an ikea
18:22:00  <andythenorth> you should go
18:22:06  <andythenorth> as a scientific exercise
18:22:20  <andythenorth> but you have to actually need furniture and utensils
18:22:26  <andythenorth> otherwise it’s invalid
18:22:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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18:23:44  <andythenorth> I am unconvinced by setting the max multiplier :)
18:24:10  <andythenorth> there must be something more interesting to explore
18:24:41  <andythenorth> Alberth: do you _ever_ deliver supplies?
18:24:43  <andythenorth> o_O
18:24:53  <Eddi|zuHause> well, have no limit but some extreme sublinear scaling
18:25:15  <andythenorth> plausible
18:25:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and have the effect in 50% steps
18:25:30  <andythenorth> especially if the explanatory text is reworked (and uses text stack)
18:25:36  <andythenorth> basically a ‘level up’ mechanic
18:25:45  <andythenorth> with progressively greater requirement
18:25:56  <Alberth> very seldomly, basically after I am 'done' with the transport network
18:26:01  <Eddi|zuHause> so 1 supply: 50%, 4 supplies: 100%, 9 supplies: 150%, 16 supplies: 200%
18:26:18  <Eddi|zuHause> or something like that
18:27:18  * andythenorth ponders powers of 2
18:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> or exponential instead of quadratic
18:27:24  <andythenorth> or geometric requirements :P
18:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that is the same thing :p
18:27:57  <andythenorth> 2, 4, 16, 256
18:27:58  <andythenorth> :P
18:28:01  <andythenorth> evils
18:28:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that is double-exponential?
18:28:33  <andythenorth> level 5 would be
challenging :)
18:28:41  <Alberth> 'impossible' :p
18:28:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that would be kinda the point :p
18:28:48  <andythenorth> very big ship
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18:36:11  <Alberth> so yeah, I would like a bit more randomized industry behavior, but I can see it doesn't fit in your design
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18:41:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought the design was supposed to take the randomness out... but if you want to add randomness, you could either change the base production, or the amount of supplies required for each "level up" on a per-industry-basis
18:42:45  <Eddi|zuHause> so one industry has a 2,4,8,16 progression, and another industry has 3,9,21,63 progression
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18:57:31  <andythenorth> interesting idea
18:57:32  <andythenorth> biab
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19:59:28  <andythenorth> Alberth: more randomized? o_O
20:00:07  <Alberth> well, without doing supplies, you set up an industry once, and you never ever have to check if there are sufficient trains etc
20:01:17  * andythenorth wonders
20:01:24  <andythenorth> can GS set the prod_level?
20:02:22  <andythenorth> hmm
20:02:26  <andythenorth> seems GS can only read industries
20:02:38  <andythenorth> not set props
20:02:57  <Alberth> I would expect so, although that gives options :p
20:03:20  <Alberth> but payments for transported cargo are perhaps more interesting
20:03:30  <andythenorth> how about an AI that deliver supplies? o_O
20:03:34  <andythenorth> haphazardly :P
20:04:09  <Alberth> haha, could be fun :)
20:04:51  <Alberth> but I may interfer :p
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20:06:53  <Alberth> gn
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20:23:27  <andythenorth> also
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21:26:03  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:02:59  <sim-al2> Hi guys anyone here wiling to helo me set up a non-dedicated server? I've opened ports as per but I'm not seeing any thing on the server list
23:25:23  <glx> set it to advertise and check
23:26:55  <glx> some routers prevent servers from being accessed from local ip with outside ip
23:33:48  <sim-al2> I did get that. It seems to work if I use dedicated mode now

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