Log for #openttd on 31st May 2015:
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01:33:29  <Jimmy_Bignuts> rededit i think
01:33:32  <Jimmy_Bignuts> or somethign like that
01:33:38  <Jimmy_Bignuts> do those games get recorded?
01:36:10  <ST2> usually most communities have commands to call and admin, try !help or !commands    (to call an admin it's usually !admin <reason>)
01:36:27  <ST2> but I'm not aware with reddit commands, sorry :(
01:37:18  <sim-al2> Hey some user named  Jimmy_Bignuts is on #openttd
01:37:44  <sim-al2> errrr the reddit channel is #/r/openttd
01:37:53  <sim-al2> Brain is crossed sorry
01:39:01  <sim-al2> yeah we have !admin
01:40:03  <ST2> was talking by heart, to Jimmy_Bignuts get some help... if he still needs it ^^
01:41:38  <Sylf> recording the game - if the server keeps enough autosaves, that would be the closest thing to the actual record of the game itself
01:43:18  <Jimmy_Bignuts> that is unfortunate
01:43:22  <sim-al2> It's likely that any autosaves are gone by now
01:43:26  <Jimmy_Bignuts> yesterday i had my path blocked by an opponent
01:43:26  *** mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
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01:43:45  <Sylf> train path? truck/bus path?
01:43:50  <Jimmy_Bignuts> you can tell it was legit, because you can see my commencement, followed by him blocking me 360 degrees
01:43:57  <Jimmy_Bignuts> blocked me in two ways
01:44:11  <Sylf> oh, actual sabotage
01:44:14  <Jimmy_Bignuts> nah he had good coal mine, so i built a station next to his
01:44:26  <Jimmy_Bignuts> then as i build in from one way, he blocks it.
01:44:35  <Jimmy_Bignuts> so i build another station and try going out the other way
01:44:37  <Sylf> does reddit allow resource sharing?
01:44:39  <Jimmy_Bignuts> he blocks that to
01:44:46  <Jimmy_Bignuts> then he blocks it all around me so i am stuck
01:45:02  <Jimmy_Bignuts> well the other guys said primary industries are meant to be shared
01:45:23  <Sylf>
01:45:27  <Sylf> Read their server rules
01:46:04  <Jimmy_Bignuts> 2) Blocking other players
01:46:05  <Jimmy_Bignuts> Intentionally blocking other players is strictly forbidden. If you're trying to build and you notice that someone else might be getting in your way, try to work it out with each other.
01:46:14  <Jimmy_Bignuts> i was not on his way, he was already there
01:46:19  <ST2> "This is why primary industries are fair game for all companies." <<-- I guess that includes coal mines ^^
01:46:29  <Jimmy_Bignuts> so i start building a station on opposite side, and he saw it and started getting funny
01:46:50  <Jimmy_Bignuts> when i tell him why he did it
01:46:54  <Jimmy_Bignuts> he said i was stealing his coal
01:46:55  <Jimmy_Bignuts> LOL
01:47:04  <Jimmy_Bignuts> so talk about a subtle admission of blocking
01:47:06  <Sylf> ah.  different definition of stealing
01:47:19  <Sylf> on some servers, that's stealing.  on reddit, it's competition
01:47:29  <Jimmy_Bignuts> you kiddin me
01:49:24  <Sylf> either way, like sim-al said, talking in #/r/openttd will be more helpful than talking about that here
02:01:42  <Jimmy_Bignuts> another thing i dont like about this game is that some levels block aircraft
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02:47:05  <Sylf> airplanes are virtually no-brainer money printing machines
02:47:35  <Sylf> plop 2 airports at 2 far end of the map, add planes, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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03:16:48  <Jimmy_Bignuts> airplanes are part of transport
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04:52:48  <Jimmy_Bignuts> i would like to host one of these games
04:53:04  <Jimmy_Bignuts> can you run a server version of this game on linux?
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06:23:23  <andythenorth> huzzah
06:23:48  <Pokka> o
06:23:51  <Supercheese> forsooth?
06:24:00  <Pokka> foshizzle
06:24:08  <andythenorth> yes
06:24:31  <andythenorth> can CivilAI occasionally build some pointless road bridges ?
06:24:44  <andythenorth> it spoils my shipping empire :P
06:25:14  <Pokka> how pointless did you have in mind?
06:25:25  <andythenorth> utterly
06:25:35  <andythenorth> I have no serious suggestion :P
06:25:49  <andythenorth> but the roads block canals / lowering land for ship canals
06:26:04  <Pokka> oh, right
06:26:13  <andythenorth> doesn’t stop me using it in games
06:26:15  <andythenorth> but eh
06:26:22  <Pokka> no more than any other AI's routes, I guess
06:26:56  <Pokka> with the update, all you have to do is build some tracks over its roads and squash a car on it
06:27:09  <Pokka> then it will remove the road and build a bridge over your tracks. remove tracks, replace with canal?
06:28:25  <andythenorth> ha
06:28:29  <andythenorth> nice hax
06:42:20  <andythenorth> should I company colour the vehicles?
06:42:21  <andythenorth>
06:42:23  <andythenorth> also buildings?
06:42:35  <Pokka> why not?
06:42:57  <Pokka> perhaps not the buildings entirely, give them different coloured roofs or stripes or something. Or too much work? :)
06:44:23  <andythenorth> nah
06:44:31  <andythenorth> I’m pretty quick at colouring in buildings
06:44:35  <andythenorth> done a  few now :P
06:45:52  * andythenorth must also make a power station
06:46:42  <Pokka> I have some bits of an oldeworlde one lying around, if it's any help... but you've probably got enough industry bits of your own.
06:46:58  <andythenorth> is it base set sprites?
06:47:02  <andythenorth> or you drew some?
06:47:19  * andythenorth needs a cooling tower probably
06:47:44  <Pokka> actually, never mind, it's got too many bits of base set sprites
06:47:50  <Pokka> and no cooling tower. :)
06:47:59  <andythenorth> there’s always OpenGFX
06:48:05  <Pokka> true
06:48:15  <Jimmy_Bignuts> is there any way to exit a game but have your company continue to grow? then re-enter and continue where you left off providing you dont get bankrupt?
06:49:46  <Pokka> on multiplayer? depends on the server whether your company gets wiped or not.
06:52:12  <andythenorth> also this builders yard
06:52:13  <andythenorth>
06:55:19  <Pokka> internet is playing up, doesn't want to load openttdcoop
06:55:23  <Pokka> nor google, apparently
06:55:35  <andythenorth> australia has special internet
06:55:46  <andythenorth> sometimes bits of internet aren’t there for you
06:55:54  <Pokka> yes
06:56:08  <andythenorth> it’s extra special for those of us who have servers in australia :P
07:02:49  <Pokka> even those of us in australia are sensible enough to keep our servers somewhere else :)
07:03:05  <andythenorth> :)
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07:13:49  <andythenorth> eh, so power plants
07:14:00  <andythenorth> must to have an acceptance limit?
07:14:06  <andythenorth> tied to town population?
07:14:15  <Pokka> does anything else have an acceptance limit?
07:14:52  <Pokka> I thought that stockpiling wasn't generally a FIRS mechanic :P
07:17:11  <andythenorth> not
07:17:33  <andythenorth> also don’t really want to add it :P
07:17:42  <Pokka> I guess that's the answer then
07:17:46  * andythenorth must try harder
07:17:55  <andythenorth> produce building materials?
07:17:58  <andythenorth> bit odd tbh :P
07:20:14  <andythenorth> generate electricity?
07:20:25  <andythenorth> moved by a new railtype?
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07:29:31  <Supercheese> tried that, was sort of eh
07:30:15  <Supercheese> general consensus seemed to be "needs a GS to make things work nicely"
07:31:10  * Supercheese is too lazy to write an electricity GS
07:31:19  <andythenorth> eh, it’s a bad use of a GS
07:31:29  <andythenorth> because there’s only one GS per game
07:31:37  <andythenorth> using it to do a show-pony cargo trick is daft
07:31:40  <Supercheese> eh I don't use any at the moment
07:31:45  <Supercheese> my slot is free
07:31:48  <Supercheese> still too lazy
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07:35:45  <Alberth> moin
07:37:18  <andythenorth> o/
07:48:09  <supermop> needs to be a better way of seeing topography through trees
07:48:54  <andythenorth> transparency :P
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07:50:10  <supermop> better than that
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07:50:51  <supermop> currently the only reason to have trees visible to to avoid destroying them,
07:50:52  <Alberth> you know transparency includes making trees invisible?
07:51:03  <Alberth> ah :)
07:51:31  <Alberth> just avoid towns :p
07:51:57  <supermop> if they are visible the land looks ugly because they completely hide any contours - so the whole map looks flat
07:52:28  <supermop> current map has some nice mountains - but cannot see them if trees are on
07:52:42  <supermop> and if trees are off, then the mountains look too bare
07:53:33  * andythenorth always hides
07:53:41  <andythenorth> can’t build anything with trees on
07:53:45  <andythenorth> too hard to see
07:53:54  * Supercheese agrees
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07:54:42  <supermop> i guess a more sparse set of trees would help
07:55:12  <supermop> but i think shading trees based on tile slope would make landscapes look pretty nice
07:55:19  <andythenorth> use the original tree algorithm
07:55:22  <andythenorth> better results
07:55:36  <andythenorth> the ‘improved’ algorithm isn't
07:55:43  * andythenorth just tested
07:58:32  <supermop> the problem isn't really that i can't build stuff - it's that trees look ugly when they become essentially just green noise
07:58:55  <andythenorth> agreed
07:59:05  <andythenorth> tried both algorithms?
07:59:28  <supermop> it's been awhile
08:01:41  <supermop> man there are a lot of north american diesels that i have a really hard time bringing myself to care about
08:02:07  <supermop> like I had no idea that this thing existed:
08:02:09  <supermop>
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08:02:24  <supermop> looks pretty underwhelming
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08:42:11  <Alberth> it has good colours
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08:43:02  <Alberth> and I have been using the "none" tree algorithm, works quite nicely, although eventually, you get a few more trees than "none" :)
08:43:21  <andythenorth> ha
08:44:07  <Alberth> also, playing other than temperate climate helps :)
08:44:34  <Alberth> hmm, maybe also not toyland, it's also quite tree-ish
08:45:05  <andythenorth> I like Evilweed
08:45:12  <andythenorth> nice location for the port
08:45:34  <andythenorth> looks like Canadian northwest coast
08:45:46  <Alberth> nice :)
08:46:07  <Alberth> would look good in the screenshot section :)
08:47:25  * andythenorth rarely goes there :)
08:48:21  <Alberth> no need, you have your own pretty little towns :)
08:49:12  <Alberth> now you only need a few stations in the big city, and you have covered it
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09:00:33  * andythenorth refactors
09:00:50  <andythenorth> refactoring is like doing work without having to do work
09:00:54  * andythenorth should refactor more
09:02:59  <Alberth> indeed :)
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09:04:26  <andythenorth> no design needed, very few decisions, lots of commits :P
09:04:31  <andythenorth> way easy
09:05:23  <Alberth> you should have an idea of direction, but other wise, yep :)
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09:51:32  <andythenorth> beebul
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11:53:31  <Wolf01> hi hi
12:05:31  <jjavaholic> what is the basic construction of a side chain
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12:42:39  <andythenorth> hmm
12:42:43  <andythenorth> ‘industries for the sea'
12:42:47  * andythenorth ponders
12:43:24  <Jimmy_Bignuts> how do i exit a game, and return tomorrow with it still running?
12:45:45  <supermop> on a server?
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12:46:58  <kamnet> I think you got all the sea industries covered, andy
12:47:15  <supermop> or just leave your computer on all night
12:47:34  <kamnet> unless you want to make a cultured pearl farm. :D
12:47:56  <supermop> floating fishing village
12:48:08  <supermop> for vietnam economy
12:48:23  <kamnet> whalers
12:48:55  <supermop> metabolist floating cities
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12:50:11  <kamnet> kelp fields
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12:53:23  <andythenorth> windfarms
12:53:25  <andythenorth> :P
12:53:28  <andythenorth> deliver nothing
12:53:31  <andythenorth> produce nothing
12:54:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that's called an "object"
13:02:41  <supermop> good night
13:03:13  <andythenorth> eh
13:03:31  <andythenorth> over-sized spritesheets aren’t going to make much difference to compile time?
13:03:41  <andythenorth> probably negligible or undetectable?
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13:06:25  <frosch123> all images files are loaded onlyonce
13:06:45  <frosch123> encoding of sprites is sorted by source file
13:06:53  * andythenorth files refactoring spritesheets under ‘tmwftlb’
13:07:27  <frosch123> anyway, if you compile multiple times, you use the cache anyway
13:07:53  <frosch123> so, maybe separate those sprites, which you change every 5 minutes :p
13:08:05  <andythenorth> :P
13:08:17  <andythenorth> I did consider again an nml->nfo compile
13:08:30  <andythenorth> for cases where only the graphics change
13:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but that means it can't use the graphics cache, which may make things actually slower when you change code and no graphics
13:10:04  <andythenorth> I’d have to have two compiles :P
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13:10:11  <andythenorth> and choose the right one for the work that day
13:10:13  <andythenorth> seems lame
13:10:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think "lame" is the right word :p
13:11:01  <andythenorth> more superlative than ‘lame'?
13:12:59  <andythenorth> those trucks
13:13:02  <andythenorth> should be removed?
13:14:29  * andythenorth is going to tweak a few things, but lacks inspiration
13:18:07  <andythenorth> dragline gravel pits are pretty minimal
13:18:11  <andythenorth>
13:23:03  <andythenorth> considered animating the crane, but I’d have to include multiple turning angles
13:23:07  <andythenorth> total PITA :)
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13:40:34  <krinn> hi guys
13:40:57  <krinn> Alberth got a min? (i don't want report a non bug again)
13:41:10  <Alberth> sure
13:42:18  <krinn> looks like i'm unable to build a bridge from slope_N to slope_E
13:43:07  <krinn> but that's not a define limit in the api (of course slope_E and slope_N are opposite tiles, same tileX...)
13:43:23  <krinn> while by hands i'm able to build it
13:44:02  <krinn> (and yes, build on slope is on of course)
13:44:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure dozens of AIs managed to build bridges
13:46:10  <krinn> lol Eddi|zuHause sure, but they only do it because the pathfinder hint them on where to build it, and the pathfinder ONLY gave them a tile source or target slope_SE/SW/NE/NW
13:46:27  <krinn> never a S/N/W/E
13:47:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that seems like a shortcoming in the pathfinder
13:48:17  <krinn> maybe, but that's looks fine then if you cannot have the BuildBridge function to build a bridge on a tile that isn't NW/SE/NE/NW
13:48:29  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, what do you want us to do now?
13:48:48  <Alberth> give magical answers :)
13:49:03  <krinn> well, confirm it's a limit from openttd or a bug?
13:49:18  <krinn> i don't see why i could do a bridge by hands and by API i cannot do the same
13:49:18  <Alberth> but I don't have them, I don't have an AI that shows it fails
13:49:52  <krinn> can pack mine, but its state is really poor now
13:49:56  <Alberth> krinn: I agree, an AI should be able to do what a user can do
13:50:22  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: try to make a reduced example that only tries to build such a bridge
13:50:41  <Alberth> as simple as possible, so your AI code doesn't contain errors
13:51:06  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, erf, we need a special map/condition, it's not common to find an area slope_N slope_E to build a bridge on
13:51:30  <krinn> a screenshot and the code that try to build the bridge would do?
13:51:34  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: make a savegame/scenario with the right condition then
13:51:36  <Alberth> make a map, or test specific tiles to have some confiuration
13:52:09  <Alberth> or tarreform tiles to the right form
13:52:54  <Alberth> it doesn't have to be complete, it can be mostly manual, whatever, the code just has to be as easy as possible, so you can concentrate on the bridge build problem
13:54:18  <Alberth> if you can show that the simple code fails, and manually it doesn't fail, it's a bug
13:55:07  <Alberth> eg in my signal tester, I had hard-coded positions for the test area
13:56:46  <krinn> ok, going to build a tiny ai that build bridge only
13:57:41  <Alberth> ok, thank you
14:00:10  <Alberth> It's often a useful exercise with these problems. If the tiny example fails, you have a piece of code to demonstrate the problem (just like I did, "my code works, could you have a look?")
14:00:31  <Alberth> if the tiny example works, you know the problem is not the bridge itself, but elsewhere
14:01:43  <krinn> i know, just that this time i have check more than once (ok i might still be wrong more than once)
14:03:51  <Alberth> another tactic that often works is to post the question at the forum, but also there you need to provide something to show the problem
14:05:30  <krinn> i'm doing the test ai, so my ai code will be out of the problem
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14:30:52  <krinn> ok done, testmap + testai
14:31:13  <krinn> the ai fails on two bridge while is able to build a 3rd test one
14:32:29  <krinn> wants bugreport with the map and ai to test?
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14:46:32  <Alberth> sounds good
14:48:16  <krinn> weirds, the same function is able to build one, and fail on the two other
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14:52:11  <krinn> Alberth, confirm at least code "seems" ok for ai part?
14:57:20  <Alberth> looks ok-ish at first sight
14:58:26  <Alberth> a and b are a bit magic, you may want to compute the tile index the next time (making it easier to adjust the code for further experiments)
14:58:44  <Alberth> "c == false" is normally expressed as "!c"  :)
14:58:55  <Alberth> but for testing it's all fine enough
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14:59:26  <krinn> i've put sign to help see start & end and find them fast on the map
14:59:44  <krinn> and i tooked a & b to be close middle map, so they should be easy to get when loading it
15:00:25  <Alberth> I saw, but  TileIndex(100, 100)  is easier to understand
15:00:44  <Alberth> but just for a next time, no need to change this any more
15:01:10  <krinn> ah yes, will try keep it in mind for next time
15:01:58  <krinn> i know i should kept some lower openttd version to test, but i only have 1.4.4 right now
15:02:17  <Alberth> ha, I test in trunk :)
15:03:07  <krinn> 2 fails on trunk too?
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15:04:07  <Alberth> don't know, didn't actually try to run the code yet
15:06:06  <krinn> was trying to optimize path result of pathfinder, i think i know why pathfinder was sucking at building bridge now :)
15:14:37  <andythenorth> :(
15:14:44  <andythenorth> my compile got slower
15:16:03  <V453000> 1s?
15:18:37  <andythenorth> about 14s :(
15:18:44  <andythenorth> just for changing one industry
15:19:26  <V453000> world ends right the hell now then
15:20:50  <andythenorth> it’s ~28% slower
15:21:04  <andythenorth> just due to refactoring
15:21:09  <andythenorth> that’s insane
15:23:32  <Alberth> krinn:
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15:23:45  <Alberth> you have this too?
15:24:38  <Alberth> I have no signs
15:25:05  <krinn> enable seeing other company sign :)
15:25:07  <Alberth> nvm thats my fault\
15:25:27  <krinn> or switch to the ai company to see them
15:25:50  <krinn> i'm glad only one is build for you too :D
15:26:27  <Alberth> :D
15:27:11  <krinn> the signs are good help, at least they shown the S & E points, and it's easy to see they are good points to build a bridge on
15:27:39  <Alberth> looks like it
15:27:48  <krinn> what doesn't really help is the ERR_UNKNOWN
15:30:58  <krinn> it's also fail if you set currentroadtype to ROAD and try build road bridges (so at least it's not VT_RAIL depend)
15:31:59  <Alberth> good to know
15:39:36  <andythenorth> ground aware spritelayouts are insanely inefficient to compile
15:41:11  <krinn> i've heard Eddi|zuHause saying he has put plenty noop() and sleep() in it to bug newgrf makers to death
15:44:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that's libel!
15:46:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: of course optimizing for worktime means that the optimal solution is doing no work at all.
15:46:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you're done the quickest
15:47:12  <andythenorth> depends if you do achievement = work / result
15:47:14  <andythenorth> or such
15:47:20  <andythenorth> or result / work
15:48:17  * andythenorth wonders why the damn thing is so slow
15:48:21  * andythenorth reads the nml
15:49:08  <andythenorth> eh, does nml incur any time parsing empty lines?
15:49:16  <andythenorth> if that was significant, I would be surprised
15:49:23  <andythenorth> but eh
15:50:50  <Eddi|zuHause> my experience in that matter is very old...
15:51:09  <Eddi|zuHause> back then, the biggest impact was complex formulas e.g. in templates
15:51:36  <Eddi|zuHause> empty lines should be handled in ply
15:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause> nml won't ever see those
15:52:47  <krinn> might also be a good idea to really drop that zx81 and change your computer andythenorth
15:53:51  <andythenorth> yeah
15:54:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but i have never seen you complain about that ratio. you only ever complain about compile time
15:54:46  <andythenorth> slow is bad
15:55:04  <krinn> oh speaking off, would you go for a 6xcores i58xx or 4xcores 4970 intel cpu? (i'm unsure the ref, the first is newest gen with 6cores, the other previous gen but at 4ghz)
15:55:45  <andythenorth> stick with the zx81
15:55:51  <krinn> ;)
15:57:13  <andythenorth> hmm
15:57:20  <andythenorth> the nml compile time is only 35s on average
15:57:27  <andythenorth> so wtf is eating the rest of the time
15:57:29  * andythenorth explores
15:58:38  <Alberth> krinn: max speed for single core is what counts :)
15:59:35  <andythenorth> 1s to run chameleon templating
15:59:38  <andythenorth> 2s to render docs
15:59:50  <andythenorth> there are 20-30s missing somewhere
16:00:14  <krinn> Alberth, i think so, alas the extra cores won't beat up the extra ghz on most apps
16:00:36  <andythenorth> ach, how do I profile a makefile :(
16:01:25  <krinn> andythenorth, did you try use a tmpfs to see if may help?
16:01:30  <andythenorth> ?
16:01:42  <andythenorth> is that a ramdisk or what?
16:01:50  <Alberth> memorydisk
16:02:03  <andythenorth> eh, no idea how to set that up on OS X
16:02:12  <andythenorth> doubt that IO is the problem
16:02:27  <Alberth> simple way is to add "time" to the commands,   time nmlc ....
16:02:46  <krinn> well, if you keep loading the same groundpic other & other it could
16:02:46  <Alberth> which dumps timing of the executed comand
16:03:16  <andythenorth> so I need to find all the commands :)
16:03:17  <Alberth> krinn: nmlc uses lots of caching
16:03:17  <andythenorth> ok
16:03:32  <Alberth> no variable for that?
16:03:41  <Alberth> NMLC = nmlc    or such
16:03:54  <Alberth> and in the rule $(NMLC) ....
16:04:09  <Alberth> then you can change to   NMLC = time nmlc
16:04:43  <Alberth> you can also do verbose build   _V=  make
16:05:04  <Alberth> which should dump all commands as they are executed, that may give a hint what takes time
16:05:16  <krinn> andythenorth, dunno for os/x look at /proc/filesystems if you can use tmpfs
16:05:40  <andythenorth> all I found so far was a thing saying “don’t bother with this for BSD-like systems” :)
16:05:50  <andythenorth> it can be done, but apparently it’s a bad idea
16:05:55  <Alberth> it's probably different for osx, as it's BSD-based
16:06:42  <Alberth> don't you have ssd ?
16:07:05  <Alberth> I seem to remember that, at least
16:07:44  <andythenorth> yeah
16:07:57  <andythenorth> it puts about 600MB/s through on average
16:08:16  <Alberth> disk times are probably negligible then
16:08:36  <andythenorth> also I know the main factor is the nml source
16:08:41  <Alberth> seek times are more relevant, as you have lots of small files
16:08:41  <andythenorth> for nml compile time
16:08:45  <krinn> did you then try see if you can alter ccache to handle nmlc?
16:08:53  <andythenorth> nah
16:09:20  <Alberth> time make firs.nml   ?
16:09:21  <andythenorth> IO isn’t going to affect advanced varaction 2 expansion times in spritelayouts ;)
16:09:25  <andythenorth> it’s absolutely not disk bound
16:10:07  <andythenorth> with everything cached, a make run is 11s
16:10:09  <Alberth> nml is quite inefficient in expression simplification afaik
16:10:22  <andythenorth> of that 11s, 2.5s is spent in nmlc
16:10:30  <andythenorth> so the makefile has some base overhead somewhere
16:10:31  <Alberth> :O
16:10:45  <andythenorth> I can’t understand the makefile yet
16:10:49  <krinn> dunno could also look at your makefile and ignore some steps if you are sure the result won't change from previous
16:10:49  <andythenorth> it is...sophisticated
16:11:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that means the inefficiency is in your generator script?
16:11:08  <andythenorth>
16:11:15  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: plausibly
16:11:28  <andythenorth> although the code generator is < 1s to run when cached
16:11:47  * andythenorth adds a time to that
16:14:15  <krinn> that's a kickass makefile
16:14:38  <krinn> do everything for you
16:15:38  <V453000> spend years writing it :P
16:16:33  <andythenorth> is it just expected that make has a significant overhead?
16:16:38  <andythenorth> it has to dep check, yes/no?
16:17:07  <Eddi|zuHause> it has to check the date of every file it is supposed to touch
16:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause> also, build a dependency tree
16:17:38  <krinn> maybe you can try /bin/sh if there's no bashism, people keep saying sh is faster
16:18:34  <Alberth> I don't trust lines like 219
16:18:34  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a fractured directory tree, checking the dates may take some disk access time
16:18:57  <andythenorth> Alberth: +1
16:19:01  <Alberth> nested for-loop, long pipe lines
16:19:15  <andythenorth> but I think that’s turned off
16:19:51  <krinn> it's also not that good to assume sed == gnu/sed for people using bsd/sed
16:20:34  <andythenorth> what is custom_tags.txt?
16:20:40  <krinn> and gnu/sed kick bsd/sed ass by far :)
16:21:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: thing that puts hg revision into the version info of the grf, and stuff
16:21:26  <andythenorth> thanks
16:21:29  <andythenorth> hmm
16:21:33  <andythenorth> how long is CPP spending?
16:21:41  * andythenorth tests that
16:21:57  <andythenorth> historically, CPP has been treated as near-instant
16:22:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: shouldn't be significantly longer than reading in the file and writing it out again
16:23:11  <krinn> oh! football on tv, later guys
16:23:26  <Eddi|zuHause> that's kinda the point of a simple text replacement engine
16:23:30  <andythenorth> 0.2s
16:23:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd put a time on that line Alberth mentioned
16:24:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also, try "_V=time make"
16:24:42  <andythenorth> L219 is wrapped in an ifdef
16:24:48  <andythenorth> I don’t think it’s called
16:24:51  <andythenorth> but I’ll test
16:26:09  <andythenorth> the echo line above is never printed
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16:28:05  <Eddi|zuHause> then try that last line i mentioned
16:28:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it will time each individual command
16:28:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you can then sum that up, and the difference to a "time make" will be the time spent in make itself
16:38:08  <andythenorth> neat
16:39:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also do "_V=time time make" to do that all in one go
16:39:38  <Eddi|zuHause> try not to combine this with a -jX :p
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17:07:41  * andythenorth finds nothing obvious
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17:15:35  <Alberth> so dependency calculation or time-stamp checking perhaps?
17:16:13  <Alberth> or perhaps something as simple as collecting all files that are part of the project
17:18:26  <Alberth> hmm, it does an awful lot of $(shell ... )
17:25:35  <frosch123> so, processing .bashrc :p
17:26:06  <frosch123> not sure whether $shell would trigger reading that
17:26:38  <Alberth> probably it will
17:26:48  <Alberth> make help  is quite fast for me though
17:27:07  <Alberth> less than a second
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17:32:50  <andythenorth> pretty certain the earlier (10-15s slower) results were an aberration
17:32:59  <andythenorth> think my laptop was running some system task
17:33:24  <andythenorth> compile times now are back where they were yesterday
17:33:42  <andythenorth> still, the nmlc part takes 35s, and the makefile takes 48s total
17:33:49  <andythenorth> so something is filling that gap :)
17:34:14  <Alberth> the "" line was quite slow here
17:34:20  <Alberth> *
17:34:42  <Alberth> but I couldn't pinpoint the program
17:40:24  <andythenorth> FIRS can do single industry compiles
17:40:36  <andythenorth> for those, nmlc takes 3-4s
17:40:43  <andythenorth> makefile takes ~16s
17:40:47  <andythenorth> interesting
17:41:47  <andythenorth> -include Makefile.dist
17:41:55  <andythenorth> there is no Mafkefile.dis
17:42:05  <andythenorth> or even Makefile.dist :P
17:42:52  <Alberth> that wouldn't take 12 seconds :p
17:43:32  <frosch123> maybe it scans the network drives for it :p
17:43:33  <Alberth> but to get a handle on things, maybe write a shell script that runs the computations?
17:44:22  <Alberth> although that may take more time than you ever gain :)
17:50:59  <andythenorth> maybe my nmlc timing runs are wrong
17:59:10  <andythenorth> nah
17:59:21  <andythenorth> oh nvm :)
17:59:24  * andythenorth got bored finally
18:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: lines starting with "-" mean "don't error out when this doesn't work"
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18:06:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: did you read the log about me telling you something, then arguing about forgetting it, and now i forgot it?
18:08:20  <andythenorth> can’t remember
18:08:42  <Eddi|zuHause> was yesterday, i think, and you went away before i said it
18:19:38  <andythenorth> floppy versions? <-- at least provide sloped versions of the outer rim tiles
18:20:04  <andythenorth> that
18:26:15  <Eddi|zuHause> that seems like it.
18:28:42  <andythenorth> the inner tiles of the pit will build on slopes
18:28:56  <andythenorth> which will be hidden
18:29:07  <andythenorth> the processor buildings also build on slopes
18:29:16  <andythenorth> I think the placement issue is broadly solved
18:29:26  <andythenorth> I’m getting the expected number on mountainous maps
18:35:07  <Alberth> \o/
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18:57:16  <andythenorth> eh
18:58:30  <andythenorth> so if I replace L161 with the following line, it saves about 10s:
18:58:31  <andythenorth>  REPO_VERSION_STRING ?= "FOO"
18:58:43  <andythenorth> replacing
18:58:44  <andythenorth> REPO_VERSION_STRING ?= $(shell [ -n "$(REPO_TAGS)" ] && echo $(REPO_TAGS)$(REPO_MODIFIED) || echo $(REPO_DATE)$(REPO_BRANCH_STRING) \($(NEWGRF_VERSION):$(REPO_HASH)$(REPO_MODIFIED)\))
18:59:28  <andythenorth> I get a 39s compile, of which 35s is nmlc
18:59:35  <andythenorth> which is appropriate
19:00:33  <andythenorth> there’s a stack of hg stuff, from L129 or so
19:19:13  <Eddi|zuHause> so, make here took 40 seconds, 25s of which were "render pnml", then nmlc crashed with "no module named 'ply'"
19:24:30  <andythenorth> that’s exciting
19:24:54  <andythenorth> pip install ply? :P
19:26:41  <Eddi|zuHause> already beyond that
19:26:55  <Eddi|zuHause> nmlc takes 1m17s
19:27:13  <frosch123> wrt. hg you might try to replace some ?= with :=
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19:29:10  <Eddi|zuHause> total time 2m1s
19:29:36  <Eddi|zuHause> so there's definitely stuff happening inbetween
19:30:18  <Eddi|zuHause> from my limited experience i'd also guess it's the mere fact of calling $(shell ...) that's slow
19:32:22  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: second run is significantly faster btw
19:32:37  <andythenorth> even with changes (limited changes)
19:32:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but i'm not interested in second runs.
19:32:58  <andythenorth> first run, chameleon is very slow
19:33:01  <andythenorth> *very*
19:33:11  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: they make very terrible benchmarks
19:33:24  <andythenorth> should benchmark common case no?
19:33:58  <andythenorth> dunno, the engineering priniciple here seems to be use caching :)
19:34:05  <andythenorth> any non-primed cache will be slow
19:34:15  * andythenorth wishes it were otherwise :|
19:35:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but... you're always interested in the cases where you changed something that's not in the cache.
19:37:09  <andythenorth> caches are fine-grained afaict
19:37:22  <andythenorth> typically only some small % of stuff is changed in FIRS between compile runs
19:37:42  <andythenorth> chameleon cache is fine-grained, compiled .pyc per template
19:37:53  <andythenorth> nml caches _seem_ to be quite fine-grained
19:38:35  <andythenorth> hmm
19:38:40  <andythenorth> what is all that hg stuff actually for?
19:39:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: still the same thing. putting the version into the grf
19:39:44  <Eddi|zuHause> revision hash, branch/tag name, age, ...
19:40:06  * andythenorth looks for an equivalent to git describe
19:40:28  <frosch123> you proabably want the script for the nml make framework
19:40:37  <andythenorth> ho maybe
19:40:38  <frosch123> instead of those calls within the makefile
19:40:48  <andythenorth> sounds highly plausible
19:40:49  <frosch123> and you likely want to use many := instead of ?= or =
19:41:35  <andythenorth> what’s the difference? o_O
19:41:49  <frosch123> := evaluates once and stores result
19:41:59  <frosch123> ?= and = reevaluate on every usage
19:42:07  <andythenorth> ah
19:46:09  <andythenorth> nah
19:46:23  <andythenorth> just changing those can’t make 8s speed difference :o
19:46:45  <frosch123> how often is hg called and asked whether the working copy is modified?
19:47:10  <frosch123> by using = i would not be surprised if you get to numbers like 32 times :p
19:47:13  <andythenorth>
19:51:34  <andythenorth> primed caches, 38s compile, 35s of which is nmlc
19:53:51  <andythenorth> single-industry compile, 6s
19:54:08  <andythenorth> that’s more like it :P
19:58:03  <andythenorth> now all I need is a flag to tell nmlc that only pngs have changed
19:58:19  <andythenorth> no-parse=[true|false]
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20:15:14  <andythenorth> so for FIRS 1.4.4 (current trunk), best-case compile was ~1m15s
20:15:27  <andythenorth> and single-industry compiles weren’t possible
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20:49:03  <andythenorth> also bedtime
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21:04:57  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> now all I need is a flag to tell nmlc that only pngs have changed <-- that exists. it's called a dependency.
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22:11:01  <Wolf01> 'night
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