Log for #openttd on 2nd June 2015:
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06:03:30  <andythenorth> Pikka:
06:03:34  <andythenorth> btw
06:16:37  <planetmaker> moin
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08:23:18  <Wolf01> hi o/
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15:11:30  <luaduck> Forwarding a question from /r/openttd: has the idea of an in-game version updater ever been considered by the team?
15:13:21  <__ln__> what would be the point?
15:14:00  <Eddi|zuHause> like windows nags you to update to windows 10?
15:14:03  <luaduck> for some reason, a number of users this update seemed to query it
15:14:19  <Hiddenfunstuff> For some reason it seems too much effort to go to the website and download new version
15:14:20  <luaduck> I think they just want something like "click here to update to the latest version" ala NewGRFs
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15:14:30  <luaduck> yeah I do agree it seems like major laziness on their part
15:14:32  <Hiddenfunstuff> it doesnt even require unisntallations or anything.. it saves even the settings..
15:14:44  <Hiddenfunstuff> it takes like 3 mins max..
15:14:56  <Eddi|zuHause> luaduck: but this poses all kinds of "run as administrator" problems
15:15:15  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if it's worth the hassle
15:15:19  <Hiddenfunstuff> Ah yes windows permission problems, we have dismissed that claim..
15:15:43  <luaduck> one of the guys complaining made a comment on our 1.5.1 post, feel free to comment back
15:16:32  <luaduck> I've never seen it as a problem personally but clearly some people feel strongly enough about it to make a post
15:16:41  <luaduck> even though making that post probably took longer than downloading the update
15:17:05  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably a valid question. but i don't see it happening any time soon
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15:18:11  <Alberth> it'd need support at all our platforms
15:18:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that is not a valid reason at all. download of opengfx on first startup isn't supported on all platforms either
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15:20:09  <Taede> also, should it handle updating to non-stable version?
15:20:17  <Eddi|zuHause> no.
15:20:19  <planetmaker> g'evening
15:20:27  <planetmaker> you'd probably choose update-plans :)
15:20:46  <planetmaker> however there is
15:21:06  <planetmaker> automatically updating probably is not even what most players want.
15:21:11  <Taede> yup
15:21:19  <planetmaker> they want an update to whatever their favourite server runs
15:21:23  <Taede> they want the version that runs on the server they wish to join
15:21:31  <planetmaker> and that's solved by all those auto-updaters listed in that webpage
15:22:55  <Hiddenfunstuff> theres no end to some people's laziness
15:23:29  <planetmaker> Hiddenfunstuff, automatically updating to the server you want to join seems a reasonable request to me
15:23:44  <Eddi|zuHause> laziness drives a large portion of invention and engineering
15:23:51  <planetmaker> ^^
15:24:13  <Hiddenfunstuff> Yep.. sadly to wrong direction sometimes
15:24:20  * Hiddenfunstuff looks at automatic transmission
15:25:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm terrible at driving automatic. i always want to step on the clutch...
15:25:39  <Hiddenfunstuff> It might be good on small cars.. heavy vehicles? Absolutely no..
15:25:39  <planetmaker> automatic transmissions certainly aren't either
15:26:00  <Hiddenfunstuff> Once i nearly killed somebody on the road because of the gearbox downshifting and making the wheels lose all traction
15:26:39  <Eddi|zuHause> there are certainly some terrible solutions to automatic transmission out there
15:27:44  <planetmaker> technology can fail. However most road accidents are due to human error. So... doesn't sound like technology is the one to be put to question there
15:28:05  <planetmaker> we will get the fully automatic car. Not this decade. Maybe not next. But probably during our lifetime
15:28:23  <Alberth> hmm....
15:28:26  <Hiddenfunstuff> That as well but untill the machines can see properly whats infront of itself.. not just lazors but the road condition.. I will never let the car decide what it does
15:29:01  <Hiddenfunstuff> for sake of all drivers, i hope those self driving trucks never make it to public
15:29:07  <Alberth> You should read more Asimov :)
15:29:22  <planetmaker> I read it all, Alberth :)
15:29:28  <planetmaker> well. Most of him
15:30:24  <planetmaker> Hiddenfunstuff, *you* may choose not to have your car decide for you. *I* will be happy to have that option when I'm tired and just want a nap on the way back from a weekend trip
15:30:42  <planetmaker> and image recognition isn't that bad already
15:31:09  <Hiddenfunstuff> I avoid new cars anyways.. they're full of electronics that will fail in few cycles of winter here
15:33:43  <Hiddenfunstuff> road salt sludge water mixture does intresting things to your car and all exposed wiring..
15:33:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: i'm sure many said that 100 years ago when the first cars came out. or 150 years ago about trains. or about steam ships, or...
15:34:23  <Hiddenfunstuff> indeed.. the first thing people said when first trains came out that was it? 24kph speed is way too dangerous for humans..
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15:35:56  <Hiddenfunstuff> But from my point of view where i spend more time on the road than at home in my life, I rather have control over the vehicle myself and not some computer. Because computers do fail.. its just when. and how many dies when it happens
15:36:37  <Flygon> Hiddenfunstuff is the sort of guy that'd thrive in the world of Mad Max
15:36:49  <Hiddenfunstuff> Probably yeah
15:36:52  <Flygon> :D
15:36:55  <Flygon> But yeah
15:36:57  <Flygon> I fully getcha
15:37:02  <Flygon> I'd like a Telsa... but
15:37:13  <Flygon> Holy fuck that touch screen alone is fucking horrifying
15:37:28  <Flygon> Why can't I have a car with the dashboard and centre console of my '94 Magna?
15:37:34  <Flygon> Is that too much to ask for?...
15:37:38  <Flygon> Just... turn the keys on
15:37:38  <Hiddenfunstuff> considering how i know my way around the machines and that I can hold a hammer and blow torch.. Yeah i probably do fine..
15:37:42  <Flygon> Tune to the radio station
15:37:52  <Flygon> Drive to whereever the fuck I want to go
15:38:05  <Flygon> I shouldn't have to pull over, stare at a touch screen, just to tune a fucking radio
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15:38:31  <Flygon> Then again, I'm the guy that's fucking pissed his current car doesn't have a tape player
15:38:35  <Flygon> ...or aux in
15:38:37  <Flygon> Awkward year :U
15:38:42  <Flygon> ('07 Falcon)
15:38:45  <Hiddenfunstuff> Yeah.. tesla is crossing the point of.. too fancy, too overengineerd for simple task
15:38:53  <Hiddenfunstuff> I have a tape player but no aux in!
15:38:57  <Flygon> It's annoying... the Tesla would otherwise be perfect
15:38:58  <Flygon> Uh
15:39:02  <Flygon> Tape players ARE aux in
15:39:17  <Flygon> Just get a headphone jack>cassette adaptor
15:39:17  <Hiddenfunstuff> I mean the 3.5mm jack
15:39:30  <Hiddenfunstuff> How does that even work?
15:39:30  <Flygon> Yes, tape players can accept raw 3.5mm input with a physical adaptor
15:39:50  <Hiddenfunstuff> does it record it onto the tape on the fly and then the deck reads it?
15:39:51  <Flygon> The tape's prongs directly connect with the tape player's heads
15:40:04  <Flygon> And dummy tools trick the radio into thinking the tape is playing
15:40:08  <Flygon> Zero conversion happens
15:40:11  <Flygon> It's just a raw physical adaptor
15:40:25  <Hiddenfunstuff> mind blown
15:40:25  <Flygon> Raw analogue audio and tape audio are electronically compatible
15:40:47  <Hiddenfunstuff> Damnit! I can listen to modern music while i'm driving!
15:41:01  <Flygon> :D FLYGON SAVES THE DAY
15:41:02  <Hiddenfunstuff> not some "best of 1989" tapes
15:41:03  <Flygon> But yeah
15:41:09  <frosch123> [17:28] <planetmaker> we will get the fully automatic car. Not this decade. Maybe not next. But probably during our lifetime <- the funny thing is that we probably get no automatic cargo trains :p
15:41:10  <Flygon> I wish my car had a tape player
15:41:11  <Hiddenfunstuff> or ancient mixtapes
15:41:15  <Flygon> I wanna play my 80s and 90s mixtapes
15:41:23  <Rubidium> Hiddenfunstuff: then what do you say about Google's self driving cars? All accidents were either when the vehicle was driven manually, or when the self driving vehicle was hit by another car
15:41:25  <planetmaker> hm... no, frosch123 ?
15:41:27  <Flygon> frosch123: That's very true
15:41:43  <Flygon> planetmaker: They won't exist in Australia. Too stronger rail lobby.
15:41:52  <frosch123> planetmaker: automatic only makes sense for small vehicles
15:42:00  <frosch123> for big ones, it is not worth the effort
15:42:00  <Hiddenfunstuff> Rubidium.. Would you let a machine control a truck with total mass of 76 tons (metric)
15:42:08  <Flygon> HOWEVER
15:42:17  <Rubidium> Hiddenfunstuff: yes
15:42:21  <Hiddenfunstuff> you are insane
15:42:23  <Flygon> I also forgot Australia DOES already have semi-automatic freight trains
15:42:37  <Flygon> And semi/fully-automatic trucks
15:42:46  <Flygon> But they're only used in the mining industry
15:42:54  <Flygon> And are isolated from the public roads/rail system
15:42:55  <Hiddenfunstuff> yeah far from civil traffic
15:43:12  <Rubidium> Hiddenfunstuff: really? Do machines get tired? Do machines want to go home? Do machines get heart attacks?
15:43:20  <Hiddenfunstuff> No, but machines get broken
15:43:22  <Flygon> But, yeah. A huge fuss about ATO is being made here in Melbourne...
15:43:24  <Flygon> But
15:43:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: so, would you let a HUMAN control a truck with total mass of 76 tons (metric)?
15:43:29  <Flygon> I'm not sure it'll ever eventuate
15:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: humans make errors
15:43:42  <Hiddenfunstuff> I am driving a 76 ton combination, and last time i checked, i'm human
15:43:44  <Flygon> The Metro lines share tracks with freight trains, V/Line trains, maintainence trains...
15:43:58  <Flygon> Hiddenfunstuff: Is it a War Rig?
15:43:59  <Hiddenfunstuff> when i was driving an 68 ton automatic truck.. that thing nearly killed somebody
15:44:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: and statistically, humans probably make more errors than machines.
15:44:08  <Hiddenfunstuff> no, just a standard delivery truck
15:44:11  <Flygon> :(
15:44:12  <frosch123> Hiddenfunstuff: Eddi|zuHause: why do you care whether you are run over by a 1 ton or 76 ton vehicle?
15:44:27  <Flygon> frosch123: Conservation of momentum
15:44:35  <Hiddenfunstuff> just saying that 76 ton vehicle takes a shitloads of longer distance to stop..
15:44:38  <Flygon> I'd take the 1 tonne vehicle
15:44:49  <Hiddenfunstuff> and 1.5 ton renault doesnt stop the truck's speed much
15:44:57  <Hiddenfunstuff> Yes, it does do damage but it doesnt stop it
15:45:04  <Flygon> The only way you're gonna stop a 76 tonne vehicle quickly
15:45:18  <Hiddenfunstuff> is to drive it to a ditch or off the road
15:45:23  <Flygon> Is if it's a train/tram, and you apply those electromagnetic anchors to the tracks
15:45:23  <frosch123> Flygon: do you want to hide behind the street light or something?
15:45:28  <Flygon> But even then
15:45:32  <Flygon> If you're going fast enough
15:45:41  <Flygon> You'll probably wreck the train/tram and kill all the occoupants
15:45:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen tanks stop nearly instantly
15:45:56  <Flygon> Tanks use treads, not wheels
15:46:02  <Hiddenfunstuff> and tanks do not weight 70 tons
15:46:11  <Hiddenfunstuff> or well.. some do but generally they are lighter
15:46:11  <Flygon> Of course it'll stop. It has near perfect adhesion to the road
15:46:14  <Hiddenfunstuff> around 30-40 tons
15:46:24  <planetmaker> there's a good reason that things like lane assist, distant assist, emergency breaks are *first* introduced in big trucks: human error is the far biggest cause of accidents involving trucks
15:46:25  <Eddi|zuHause> how does that make a difference?
15:46:40  <Flygon> The more adhesion, the more something stops moving more easily
15:46:50  <Flygon> That's why it's called adhesion
15:46:58  <Hiddenfunstuff> tank treads have more surface contact i belive..
15:46:59  <frosch123> Hiddenfunstuff: the first tank i look up, weights 62 tons, at 72 km/h
15:47:39  <Flygon> (iirc, the electromagnetic brakes on Trams here aren't allowed to be deployed when going over 35km/h here, due to the fact that going any faster, the stop would be so sudden that... well, you'd kill the passengers)
15:47:56  <Flygon> (safer to just smash the car in front, or mince the pedestrian if necessary >_<)
15:48:11  <Hiddenfunstuff> Yep
15:48:30  <Hiddenfunstuff> electrocmagnetics are sticks quite hard..
15:48:35  <Flygon> (of course, it's incredibly unlikely that a pedestrian will be in front of a Tram going 70km/h that can't brake fast enough to THEN apply the electromagnetic brakes)
15:48:39  <planetmaker> hehe... that reminds me. Once the tram driver announced that passengers should please hold on tight because the primary breaks were broken. First passengers laughed... until the thing needed to start braking
15:48:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: when the ICE was tested for dutch railways, their speed was reduced because invoking magnetic brakes at that speed would have dragged all sorts of track equipment with it
15:48:54  <Flygon> (I mean, you'll have enough stopping distance to slow down then brake...)
15:49:07  <Flygon> Eddi: Hahaha, fuck, wow O_o
15:49:24  <Hiddenfunstuff> Electroc magnetic retarder is used in coaches and buses..
15:49:56  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'd ask all passengers to leave the tram and return to depot in that case.
15:50:01  <Hiddenfunstuff> it basically resists the spinning of driveshaft which will slow down the vehicle
15:50:11  <Flygon> Eddi: While that is the safest thing to do
15:50:17  <Flygon> It isn't exactly the most possible thing to do
15:50:21  <Hiddenfunstuff> But ofc it cant be too powerful otherwise you'll end up locking up the driveshaft/twisting it in a screw/locking up the wheels
15:50:51  <Flygon> Keep in mind, Melbourne's Yarra Trams has had such things as Z1's literally getting rained on inside through the cab getting approved for normal service
15:50:56  <Flygon> And other such incredibly serious faults
15:51:01  <Flygon> Because it was still considered drivable
15:51:15  <Flygon> And I'm not getting into how utterly fucked a lot of BUSES are here...
15:51:28  <Hiddenfunstuff> convertible?
15:51:32  <Flygon> The entire principle of public transit here is "Drive it til it's dead"
15:51:42  <Flygon> Hiddenfunstuff: Rust
15:51:50  <Flygon> The rust was so bad, it leaked inside the cab of the Tram
15:51:51  <Hiddenfunstuff> Oooh rust is everywhere
15:52:01  <Flygon> When it rained, that is
15:52:05  <Flygon> So, yeah
15:52:13  <Flygon> The Z's being nigh invulnerable's becoming a bit of an issue
15:52:18  <Flygon> Thank fuck they're being retired soon
15:52:25  <Flygon> They're the coolest looking Trams on the network
15:52:30  <Flygon> And they've served us fucking well
15:52:37  <Flygon> They're around 40 years old by this point
15:52:40  <Hiddenfunstuff> They dont use roadsalt in there do they
15:52:46  <Flygon> Doesn't snow
15:52:49  <Hiddenfunstuff> oh wait.. melbourge.. no snow
15:52:53  <Flygon> We don't use roadsalt
15:53:01  <Hiddenfunstuff> roadsalt when mixed into snow/water.. thats like acid
15:53:04  <Flygon> That's only for out in Melbourne's outer North-East and the alps
15:53:08  <Hiddenfunstuff> Eats through anything
15:53:18  <Flygon> The Trams were getting eaten through out of sheer AGE
15:53:30  <Flygon> And lack of maintainence thanks to cost cutting
15:53:36  <Flygon> Yarra Trams really wanted to get rid of the Z's
15:53:50  <Flygon> And letting them rot unceromoniously was the only possible way to do so
15:54:04  <Flygon> As sad as it is (esp. since they're so awesome), it's probably for the best
15:54:32  <Flygon>
15:54:40  <Flygon> (old MTA livery)
15:54:50  <Hiddenfunstuff> Oooh
15:54:53  <Hiddenfunstuff> Ouch
15:55:10  <Flygon>,_December_2013.JPG Modern livery
15:55:29  <Hiddenfunstuff> did they just paint over the rust?
15:55:54  <Flygon> You can't paint over a gaping hole
15:55:59  <Hiddenfunstuff> oh yes you can
15:56:03  <Hiddenfunstuff> just slap some scrap metal over it
15:56:12  <Hiddenfunstuff> ofc without grinding the rust under it first
15:56:16  <Flygon> The Z1s (the oldest, unsurprisingly) that did get those gaping holes did get retired
15:56:22  <Hiddenfunstuff> so the rust will eat the new piece of scrap metal withn months
15:56:24  <Flygon> When the fact that they had giant holes in them became obvious
15:56:28  <Flygon> Hiddenfunstuff, again
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15:56:37  <Flygon> Yarra Trams were looking for an excuse to forcibly retire them
15:56:39  <Flygon> To get new Trams
15:56:43  <Flygon> They don't want to fix them up cheap
15:56:53  <Flygon> That being said
15:57:41  <Flygon> The Z3 Trams (there's three revisions. And Z3 and Z2 Trams are parts compatible with the B and A-Class Trams, meaning they'll last far longer. Tho, most Z2 are retired by now too) will last at least another decade and a half
15:58:04  <Flygon> THEY'RE SO PHOTOGENIC
15:58:51  <Alberth> yep, nicely colourful :)
15:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> how is that a reason for keeping them?
15:59:12  <Flygon> You'll never guess what happened here
15:59:49  <Eddi|zuHause> probably some sort of celebration
15:59:54  <Flygon> Crappy VHS tape image too
16:00:00  <Flygon> Celebration?...
16:00:02  <Flygon> Hehe.... hehehe...
16:00:13  <Eddi|zuHause> when they opened a new tram line over here, they put all sorts of old equipment on it on the first day
16:00:22  <Hiddenfunstuff> ..
16:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause> of course those were properly maintained museum vehicles
16:00:46  <Flygon>
16:00:51  <Flygon> This image will explain everything
16:01:08  <Eddi|zuHause> ah. that's something different then ;)
16:01:14  <Flygon> Eddi: They're kept because Yarra Trams are forced to. They gotta run EVERYTHING possible to keep up with demand
16:01:19  <Flygon> But, yeah
16:01:24  <Flygon> Huge shitstorm in 1990 over Conductors
16:01:34  <Flygon> Sadly, the last did get retired by 1999 :(
16:01:42  <Eddi|zuHause> tram conductors were long gone over here by that time
16:03:30  <Flygon> Yeah =/
16:03:32  <Flygon> It's annoying...
16:03:39  <Flygon> Everyone here wants them back
16:03:43  <Hiddenfunstuff> I should get back to work.. my break is over
16:03:46  <Flygon> Aye
16:03:47  <Flygon> I should sleep
16:03:48  <Flygon> 2AM
16:03:50  <Flygon> Night!
16:03:54  <Hiddenfunstuff> evening
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16:04:01  <Flygon> Hope I haven't bothered you guys with my Aussiefoaming x3
16:04:07  <Flygon> I know Australia aint interesting :3
16:04:11  <Flygon> And, like
16:04:14  <Eddi|zuHause> they were trying to get rid of train conductors here, but they reversed that decision
16:04:14  <Flygon> You're all European :P
16:04:15  <Hiddenfunstuff> not at all
16:04:21  <Hiddenfunstuff> Hhe
16:04:34  <Hiddenfunstuff> sometimes a nice change to talk to people..
16:04:36  <Eddi|zuHause> in local trains that is
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16:54:23  <andythenorth> o/
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16:57:42  <Alberth> hi hi
17:00:14  <planetmaker> \o
17:01:43  <andythenorth> is cat
17:02:26  <V453000> nope
17:03:44  <andythenorth> is coffee?
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17:20:06  <andythenorth> bbl
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19:28:55  <argoneus> are there any major features planned in the near future?
19:29:06  <argoneus> or is 1.5 bugfixing
19:30:02  <frosch123> it's the same as every year
19:31:46  <Eddi|zuHause> same procedure as last year, miss sophie?
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19:36:41  <andythenorth> increased industry IDs
19:36:45  <andythenorth> major feature
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20:05:09  <andythenorth_> eh
20:05:14  <andythenorth_> industry sound effects
20:05:17  <andythenorth_> like?
20:05:19  <andythenorth_> no like?
20:06:29  * Eddi|zuHause has horrible memories of PBI reusing the train crash sound for quarries
20:07:03  <Pukka> boom!
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20:07:16  <Eddi|zuHause> very traumatizing
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20:08:13  <andythenorth> boom
20:08:31  * andythenorth considers sounds for meat packer
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20:08:40  <andythenorth> also sheep farm
20:08:48  <Eddi|zuHause> mÀh!
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20:11:35  <andythenorth>
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20:14:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you want sounds that blend in with the environment and don't stand out very much
20:14:43  <andythenorth> like the default sawmill
20:14:48  <Eddi|zuHause> also, you changed colour.
20:14:58  <andythenorth> ideally all the sounds would be as nice as the default sawmill
20:15:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it's driving me mad.
20:15:08  <andythenorth> I have a colour?
20:15:35  <Eddi|zuHause> my client assings a colour to everyone
20:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause> but you joined with an alternate nick, which gets a different colour than your usual nick
20:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and then that colour sticks with you through renames
20:16:50  <Eddi|zuHause> until either you or me /hop
20:17:23  <andythenorth> there’s a lot of hopping today
20:17:31  <andythenorth> somewhat involuntary
20:17:46  <andythenorth> hmm
20:17:51  <andythenorth> other people have strange irc
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21:36:25  <Wolf01> 'night
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