Log for #openttd on 13th June 2015:
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00:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the way i see it, there are two basic problems with the daylength patches
00:54:19  <Eddi|zuHause> first, every time a daylength patch was started, they bascally started from scratch and ignored all the experience and mistakes that were done in the previous attempts
00:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> second, all the attempts were "bottom up". starting with changing daylength, and then seeing which things need fixing wrt being per day or per tick
00:55:37  <Eddi|zuHause> where i think the approach must be "top down". first identifying which things should be per day, and which should be per tick, adapting the architecture to reflect that, and THEN adding daylength
01:00:37  <Sylf> Oh bitch, you forum >_<
01:01:52  <Sylf> oh, yet another daylength discussion
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03:29:47  <fkinglag> is openttd the best FOSS game?
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04:28:00  <Flygon> fkinglag: Depends on your opinions towards piracy
04:28:08  <Flygon> And if you would count open source shareware
04:28:12  <Flygon> eg. DooM :B
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05:30:57  <andythenorth> o/
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06:16:22  <Terkhen> good morning
06:21:54  <Supercheese> good evening
06:22:34  <andythenorth> bonjour
06:22:51  <andythenorth> there is a new feature in the sprite aligner recently?
06:22:55  <andythenorth> relative offset?
06:24:00  <Alberth> yes
06:24:26  <Alberth> someone was annoyed enough to make a patch
06:25:01  <andythenorth> either we have sub-pixel alignment now, or it doesn’t account for UI zoom ;)
06:25:17  <andythenorth> or something else :P
06:25:33  <Alberth> sounds complete enough :)
06:26:22  <Alberth> I don't know if it is pre-UIzoom, but it can be
06:26:49  <Supercheese> think it's post
06:27:06  <Alberth> I think there is an issue about it, and maybe frosch even fixed something there
06:27:13  * andythenorth noticed today
06:27:18  * andythenorth has been fixing Iron Horse
06:27:21  <andythenorth> terrible grf, wouldn’t use it
06:27:28  <andythenorth> full of bugs :P
06:27:33  <Alberth> happy horse :)
06:29:05  <andythenorth> happier now
06:30:29  * andythenorth ponders parameter for intro dates
06:30:36  <andythenorth> 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x
06:30:46  <andythenorth> weird or no?
06:32:01  <Alberth> 0x  would be weird :p
06:32:30  <andythenorth> ha ha
06:32:33  <Alberth> well, I still think the daylength solution is in newgrf rather than c++ engine code
06:32:53  <andythenorth> well
06:33:04  <Alberth> so it looks like a good experiment to me
06:33:11  <andythenorth> I can solve it for ships, trains, RVs, industries
06:33:19  <andythenorth> so pikka just needs to do planes and houses :P
06:33:41  <andythenorth> but if the same code is in every newgrf for this, then I wonder if newgrf spec should handle it :P
06:33:58  <andythenorth> ‘scale intro dates'
06:34:03  <Alberth> makes sense
06:34:24  <andythenorth> I think there are problems with how some people use callbacks though :(
06:34:51  <andythenorth> e.g. I have date-based callbacks for graphics
06:35:11  <andythenorth> OpenTTD should just lie to newgrfs about the date :P
06:35:52  <Alberth> problem is that all realistic newgrfs will be horribly broken
06:37:06  <andythenorth> oh dear :D
06:37:14  <andythenorth> how sad
06:37:15  <Alberth> I do like different graphics for the same wagon, it makes the train more colourful
06:37:55  <Alberth> tbh I don't care if you do that based on date or on random or some other method
06:39:11  <Alberth> hmm, maybe we should have unltra-realistic dates, one day == 24 hours
06:39:21  <andythenorth> it’s mostly industry graphics that are date-based in my case
06:39:24  <andythenorth> but eh
06:39:37  <andythenorth> ‘other newgrfs are available’ :P
06:40:08  <Alberth> any shorter day messes up the time in the game :)
06:40:33  <Alberth> yeah, opengfx+trains changes appearance over time
06:42:13  <Alberth> nuts uses hidden features :)
06:42:29  <Alberth> transporting ducks :)
07:02:00  * andythenorth ponders
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07:18:08  <andythenorth> hmm
07:18:19  <andythenorth> it would be nice to switch colour on these tank cars
07:18:49  <supermop_> make them iridescent
07:20:34  * andythenorth considers splitting ‘’tank car’ and oil tank car’
07:20:41  <andythenorth> make them company colour and black
07:21:20  <andythenorth> or ‘chemicals tank car’ and ‘oil tank car'
07:21:21  <andythenorth> dunno
07:23:19  <Alberth> oild and non-oil :)
07:23:54  <andythenorth> I got bored of them all being black
07:24:06  * andythenorth wonders if ‘livery’ should be a thing for vehicles
07:24:14  <andythenorth> or if it’s fine to just handle it in buy menu
07:25:38  <supermop_> liveries could be fun
07:25:46  <supermop_> to make things less boring?
07:26:00  <supermop_> what am i supposed to use this avocet for
07:26:16  <supermop_> should i buy more than one or would that be cheating
07:28:25  * andythenorth looks up ‘over-thinking it’ in a dictionary :P
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07:28:53  <Alberth> just do what your heart tells you to?
07:29:21  <Alberth> no need to have a consistent global idea :)
07:29:32  <Alberth> hi newbie
07:29:42  <newbie> heart
07:30:24  <Alberth> hmm, my unicode fonts aren't very complete :)
07:31:01  <supermop_> oh its a class 90 not 89
07:31:26  <andythenorth> you’re playing UKRS 2?
07:31:30  <Alberth> supermop_: hmm, not a bird eh?
07:31:47  <supermop_>
07:31:58  <supermop_> yeah
07:32:07  <Alberth> newbie: but feel free to join the discussion, we're pretty much never on-topic :)
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07:32:30  <supermop_> with manpower industries
07:32:36  <andythenorth> Pineapple and Iron Horse solve these realism dilemmas for you supermop_ :P
07:32:42  <supermop_> very hard to make money
07:32:44  <Alberth> Aardvark :)
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07:33:42  <Alberth> wb
07:34:09  <andythenorth> hmm
07:34:10  <supermop_> andythenorth: i like the liveries?
07:34:17  <supermop_> but i play with cc
07:34:26  <andythenorth> do default trains shift y position by 1 pixel when reversing direction? o_O
07:34:35  * andythenorth may have done something wrong in Iron Horse :(
07:34:41  <supermop_> just like how the things turn grey in the 80s when pulling freight
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07:35:11  <supermop_> ogfx+ should have different liveries for sh 30 and 40
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07:35:28  <supermop_> so they dont just look like two identical toasters
07:35:51  <Alberth> ogfx+ has as general problem lack of choice imho
07:36:53  <openbu> idea
07:38:22  <peter1138> supermop_, not possible without newgrf.
07:38:34  <supermop_> ogfx+ is a newgrf
07:38:53  <peter1138> Oh, +
07:51:42  <supermop_> how do i get the pointy cab car on the back of my class 90 hauled trains?
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08:02:08  <peter1138> mail carriage?
08:04:53  <supermop_> oooh ill try that
08:05:10  <supermop_> mail car can only do 160 though
08:06:06  <supermop_> hmm nope
08:13:18  <supermop_> Alberth: you mean that ogfx+ trains should have more locomotives, or what?
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08:14:25  <Alberth> mostly yes, currently it just replicates default vehicles
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08:15:15  <Alberth> it'd be nice if you could postpone switching to eg monorail or maglev a bit
08:15:37  <Alberth> or even electric, for the climates that use that
08:16:36  <Alberth> not sure it should go much further though, after all it's default-ish, which in my view, includes forced transition to other railtypes
08:17:05  <Alberth> although openttd makes it too easy to do that "wrong"
08:17:33  <Alberth> ie upgrade to next railtype in a few mouse clicks basically kills the idea
08:18:22  <supermop_> hmm
08:18:23  <Alberth> what you'd want is more time to make the transition, and some incentive not to just replace all you have
08:18:47  <supermop_> the american/tropic climates should have some electrics maybe
08:19:30  <supermop_> and some standard gauge locomotives beyond 1994 would help in temperate
08:19:57  <Alberth> maybe monorail + maglev is too much, switching rail type so often in 100 years feels a bit forced to me
08:20:21  <supermop_> the 'arctic' climate could use a train of any kind before the 50s
08:20:31  <Alberth> I am suspecting CS ran out of ideas what to do in 100 game years
08:20:41  <supermop_> true...
08:21:01  <supermop_> but maglev is quite ttd feeling maybe?
08:21:43  <Alberth> everybody uses that as it's the final type, and it has the fastest engines and is most reliable
08:22:01  <Alberth> although reliability is useless for most
08:22:03  <supermop_> i never have used default maglev myself
08:22:29  <supermop_> also  i have rarely played a default game long enough to get maglev
08:23:09  <Alberth> yeah, I have only reached that point a few times
08:23:56  <Alberth> and I can see the value of adding a completely new track type
08:24:09  <Alberth> but as complementary to what you have, imho
08:24:19  <Alberth> no idea how to do that though :(
08:25:05  <Alberth> in the original game, you had to take down your network, and rebuild it
08:25:24  <Alberth> that had the advantage that you reconsidered place of tracks, etc
08:25:52  <supermop_> also we could say "maglev is passenger and mail only" - much like tto monorail
08:26:03  <supermop_> but
08:26:09  <supermop_> that feels too limiting
08:26:36  <supermop_> maglev should maybe carry coal, but perhaps not as well as rail?
08:26:39  <Alberth> then you need to add 'normal' engines for the industries
08:27:04  <Alberth> coal is probably the most useless stuff to transport fast :)
08:27:29  <Alberth> it's a million years old, taking a year to ship it is not going to make any difference :)
08:27:29  <supermop_> like maybe a maglev car can carry col if you really want, but only 10T insted of 40...
08:27:59  <supermop_> and takes longer to unload because it is not a regular hopper - cannot dump out the bottom
08:28:09  <Alberth> you need some competition at normal tracks imho
08:28:27  <Alberth> much like nuts is doing
08:28:35  <supermop_> so maybe you get a new efficient rail locomotive in 2050
08:29:07  <supermop_> maybe it only does 160 kmh but is cheap to run, has lots of power
08:29:15  <Alberth> much much earlier, you won't be able to keep normal rail running until 2050
08:29:31  <Alberth> but yep, something like that
08:29:35  <supermop_> well also in 1995, 2005,...2045...
08:29:46  <supermop_> once every 10 years or so
08:29:56  <Alberth> woow :)
08:30:01  * andythenorth was going to add Maglev to Iron Horse, but....hasn't
08:30:03  <andythenorth> for reasons
08:30:05  <andythenorth> like ‘why?'
08:30:20  <supermop_> andythenorth: didnt some airport in uk have a maglev in the 80s?
08:30:28  <Alberth> supermop_: you know entire electric in default is just 2 or 3 engines, right?
08:30:39  <supermop_> yeah -
08:30:55  <Alberth> a new one every ten years is too much :)
08:31:00  <supermop_> i like ukrs 2 because it is like playing tto but with more electrics
08:31:15  <supermop_> well maybe not every ten
08:31:16  <Alberth> many newgrf have way too many engines
08:31:41  <Alberth> openttd makes it workable by the autoupdate
08:31:51  <supermop_> but a mix of a few powerful and a few small locomotives to last until 2100 or so
08:32:50  <supermop_> one every 20 years maybe
08:32:50  <Alberth> something like that, 2050 is enough, unless you extend maglev too
08:34:08  <Alberth> you would have to check what default does currently, and keep that mostly to get a continuous line
08:34:24  <supermop_> i also like IH because it is like tto with more locomotives
08:34:25  <Alberth> although with diesels, I always found I got too many
08:34:29  <supermop_> but not too many
08:35:06  <supermop_> well in temerate you get all 3 diesels in the same 5 year span, then never get any more
08:35:29  <Alberth> oh, could be, never really checked that
08:35:45  <Alberth> but normally I pick one and use that for everything
08:36:03  <Alberth> also due to reliability, making the others quite useless
08:36:21  <supermop_> in that regard default is almost too realistic, BR did build a lot of diesels in late 50s-early 60s, then did not design more for a long time
08:36:53  <supermop_> in default temperate, the floss 47 is pretty much the only one to use
08:36:56  <Alberth> ungrade should be worthwhile imho. From 150 km/h to 160 km/h  doesn't do much
08:37:22  <Alberth> *upgrade
08:38:01  <supermop_> i dont think i've played an IH game into the 80s though
08:38:28  <Alberth> me neither, probably, as it starts really early :)
08:39:21  <supermop_> i think it does diesels well though -
08:39:56  <supermop_> there is a big difference between small branch line, fast express, and powerful freight
08:40:32  <Alberth> I mostly do the latter only :)
08:41:06  <Alberth> pax is nice due to the insane amount of cargo :)
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08:41:32  <supermop_> more multiple units could be nice
08:41:44  <supermop_> but not as many as some newgrfs have
08:41:44  <andythenorth> I have just played from 1968 or so to 2014
08:42:13  <supermop_> in 2cc set there are so many EMUs you have no idea what to pick
08:42:59  <supermop_> in default there are only two DMUs, only in temperate, and they come at a sort of akward time
08:43:01  <Alberth> of course, you put a bunch of train collectors together, and ask what to draw :p
08:43:32  <supermop_> ogfx+ could use maye one more dmu, and maybe 3-4 emu
08:43:33  <Alberth> obviously, you'll end up with the union of everything ever built :)
08:43:37  <supermop_> haha
08:43:53  <supermop_> except for some odd huge gaps
08:43:56  <andythenorth> IH diesels and electrics, it’s always obvious which one to choose
08:44:00  <andythenorth> to me anyway :P
08:44:02  <andythenorth> which was the goal
08:44:40  <supermop_> for some reason 2cc set has almost no american or australian multiple units, but an insane number or european ones
08:44:55  <andythenorth> the progression in IH is a bit fast 1950-1980
08:44:57  <Alberth> supermop_: yep, reality has this problem of not working out that it fits perfectly in a game :p
08:45:39  <supermop_> andythenorth: the chinook gets let out in the cold a bit
08:45:49  <supermop_> i try to keep a few running
08:45:59  <supermop_> by cascading them other places
08:47:06  <supermop_> but the combination of slow and long means they usually get replaced by vulcans before the gridiron even arrives for me
08:47:45  <supermop_> is the gridiron a 58?
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08:49:32  <andythenorth> nah
08:50:14  <andythenorth> most things are not anything in Iron Horse
08:50:25  <andythenorth> Chinook is fairly obvious and realistic
08:50:35  <andythenorth> the rest
08:51:30  <andythenorth> gridiron could be HS 4000 / 56 / 58 / 59 / 60 / 66
08:52:01  <andythenorth> Vulcan is any of DP 2 / Deltic / 37 / 50
08:53:00  <andythenorth> we looked at quite a lot of prototypes or proposed prototypes
08:53:10  <andythenorth> but stats are all done for game balance
08:58:45  <supermop_> aha
09:00:00  <supermop_> i've found use for these little 08s in this game
09:00:50  <supermop_> by using them to fillout out a shared orders group for timetabling before i can afford to buy a full complement of trains
09:02:07  <supermop_> if a turn takes 200 days and i want it served every 40 days, but can only afford 2-3 trains right now, ill fill out the group with shunters parked in depots to set the start dates
09:02:27  <supermop_> then substitute in trains as i can afford them
09:02:41  <Alberth> nice idea
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09:03:07  * andythenorth wonders if Iron Horse needs EMUs
09:03:25  <supermop_> it has the tube emus
09:03:30  <Wolf01> moin
09:04:02  <supermop_> Alberth: it gives me an excuse to have the cute little shunters sitting around
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09:09:40  * andythenorth bbl
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09:11:06  <Alberth> hi
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09:20:20  <openbu> hi
09:24:32  <frosch123> hola
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10:16:37  <leg> hi. I am running an openttd and a player forgot his company password, is it possible for me to recover/reset it?
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10:23:09  <frosch123> use the console to move them to their company
10:23:16  <frosch123> then they can set a new password
10:24:01  <frosch123> <- see "clients" and "companies" and "move"
10:25:28  <frosch123> alternatively move yourself to that company, and set your own password
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10:28:04  <leg> thanks frosch123
10:28:05  <leg> :)
10:28:39  <NumberNoid> is there a newgfr that adds passanger destinations?
10:29:11  <Alberth> no
10:29:20  <Alberth> newwer openttds have cargo dist though
10:29:25  <Alberth> *newer
10:29:38  <NumberNoid> what does cargo distribution do though?
10:30:25  <openbu> setting
10:30:28  <Alberth> it gives cargo (which can include passengers and mail) a destination they want to go to, in your network
10:30:52  <NumberNoid> and where is that setting?
10:31:06  <Alberth> in 'settings'  :p
10:31:19  <NumberNoid> found it
10:32:02  <Alberth> k
10:32:30  <Alberth> you can enable passengers/mail, valuables, and 'other cargo' separately afaik
10:32:42  <NumberNoid> is asymetric more realistic than symmetric?
10:33:34  <Alberth> symmetric is easier in a sense, and both directions get more or less the same amount of cargo
10:33:43  <openbu> welcome to our servers Dedicated -#1-[1995,2050] MBA,EMBA,Capitalism lab,Stock Market,Apartment,
10:34:30  <Alberth> on the other hand, produced cargo by an industry is rarely symmetric :)
10:34:42  <NumberNoid> thanks :D
10:34:43  <Alberth> openbu:  please don't do that, we don't need advertising
10:35:19  <openbu> oh,sorry
10:35:47  <NumberNoid> so this finally means I can have a useful interchange system :D
10:36:09  <Alberth> well, it depends on what you think is useful :)
10:36:20  <NumberNoid> it gets used
10:36:31  <Alberth> oh sure
10:36:32  <NumberNoid> not just a liability that sometimes snips the overflow
10:36:47  * NumberNoid glares at previous airport interchange
10:37:02  <Alberth> but there are no alternatives, so "use" doesn't mean a lot
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10:38:12  <NumberNoid> is there any plans to add a subway system to openttd?
10:38:16  <NumberNoid> aswell as cliffs?
10:38:33  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
10:38:35  <Alberth> it sounds like you have a plan, so yes :p
10:38:43  <Alberth> but nothing concretely
10:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what you consider a "plan"
10:38:58  <NumberNoid> my programming skills don't extend past livecode, which I had to learn at school
10:38:59  <Alberth> and I very much doubt it would fit in openttd, tbh
10:39:19  <Alberth> maybe the subway would fit
10:39:29  <NumberNoid> yeah, that's what wouyld be very good
10:39:44  <NumberNoid> I tried simutrans but the UI is just wtf
10:39:48  <Eddi|zuHause> for me, "subway" is a natural extension of the tram system
10:39:57  <NumberNoid> along with the cycles being laggy
10:40:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you lay the tram tracks under (or over) the road to prevent blocking by road vehicles in crowded cities
10:40:43  <Alberth> NumberNoid: ever tried this program called OpenTTD? it also has lots of weird UI corners where you need to know how to use it :)
10:40:44  <NumberNoid> yeah
10:40:47  *** PulecB is now known as Pulec
10:40:58  <NumberNoid> I am playing openttd :P
10:41:05  <NumberNoid> and the UI is intuitive
10:41:20  <Alberth> If you know a system, it's always intuitive
10:41:45  <NumberNoid> I guess
10:41:58  <Eddi|zuHause> there are definitely cases where you know a system, and it's still wtf :p
10:42:08  * NumberNoid glares at blender
10:42:17  <Alberth> and git :)
10:42:23  <NumberNoid> oh god git
10:42:29  <NumberNoid> why no GUI
10:42:39  <Alberth> that's normal
10:42:46  <NumberNoid> its annoying
10:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause> there are probably plenty of git guis
10:43:01  <Alberth> I have yet to see a VCS that comes with a UI
10:43:12  <Alberth> UI is always separate
10:43:28  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: not of any useful quality, I am afraid
10:43:42  <Alberth> maybe the github client
10:43:51  <Alberth> haven't tried that
10:44:05  <Alberth> but it may not run at linux :)
10:44:48  <NumberNoid> my main issue with linux is that it just doesnt have many GUI's or a simple package installer
10:44:57  <NumberNoid> ...that isnt in the command line
10:45:06  <Alberth> huh?
10:45:16  <Alberth> ever tried yumex?
10:45:32  <NumberNoid> nope
10:45:39  <NumberNoid> only debian and ubuntu
10:45:46  <NumberNoid> my laptop is debian
10:45:48  <Eddi|zuHause> there are quite certainly package manager GUIs
10:45:57  <Alberth> ah yes, the pure unixy stuff :)
10:46:04  <NumberNoid> I guess I could get windows bakc on it
10:46:17  <NumberNoid> but I don't see the point outside of increased software support
10:46:22  <NumberNoid> like
10:46:39  <NumberNoid> I cant think of any game that I play that doesnt run on linux
10:46:49  <NumberNoid> and more specifically on 5y hardware
10:46:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on how many games you play
10:47:29  <Alberth> as well as type of game
10:47:31  <NumberNoid> OTTD, ETS2, cities
10:47:40  <NumberNoid> sometimes Planetside2
10:47:47  <NumberNoid> but im done with that game for a while
10:47:53  <Alberth> but the linux support is growing, which is good
10:48:11  <NumberNoid> I guess
10:48:33  <NumberNoid> I wish there was a good emulator for linux that could run all the games without hitches
10:48:38  <NumberNoid> or wine got developed more
10:48:47  <Eddi|zuHause> out of the 9 games i have on steam, 3 are windows-only
10:49:06  <NumberNoid> I have 140 games on steam, about 60 are linux compatable
10:49:17  <NumberNoid> and about 20 run on 5y hardware
10:49:28  <NumberNoid> my PC is a proper gaming one
10:49:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and then i have some games outside steam, which almost all are windows games
10:49:48  <NumberNoid> but I need other things before a new laptop
10:50:15  <Alberth> like money :)
10:50:22  <NumberNoid> yeah, that too
10:52:17  <NumberNoid> or hacking abilities :3
10:53:10  <Alberth> you already have those
10:53:34  <NumberNoid> I guess
10:53:41  <Alberth> you just need to use them, to get more :)
10:54:01  <NumberNoid> considering I said this on the net im quite sure it wouldnt be wise to hack anyone
10:54:10  <NumberNoid> especially with windows on my machine
10:57:39  <Alberth> hacking other peoples property doesn't sound right to me
10:58:21  <Alberth> I see "hacking" in the original meaning, "finding out how things work"
11:00:15  <Alberth> you can do that with just your own stuff
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11:02:05  <NumberNoid> im quite sure it'd be difficult to optise 5yr old hardware
11:03:59  <NumberNoid> optimise*
11:05:50  <Alberth> most gain is not in the hardware, but in the software
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11:06:53  <NumberNoid> I guess
11:07:12  <NumberNoid> but there is bound to be some hardware inefficencies in the terms of addressing and task managment
11:07:31  <jottyfan> yesterday I gave a patch for game script busy bee to Alberh if I remember correctly
11:07:34  <NumberNoid> which, ironically, goes back to "driving" software
11:07:49  <jottyfan> then my time ran out
11:08:06  <jottyfan> I just wanted to have a look for comments / questions about that
11:08:15  <jottyfan> are there some?
11:08:55  * NumberNoid doesnt use game scripts
11:09:07  <NumberNoid> also, there is a bug on the roads with one way arrows
11:09:16  <NumberNoid> on slopes they don't slope with the road
11:11:09  <Alberth> jottyfan: patch was not complete
11:11:23  <jottyfan> ok, what is missing?
11:12:15  <Alberth> functionality :)
11:14:24  <Alberth> ie a new setting and a bunch of new string doesn't make a new feature :)
11:14:57  <jottyfan> yes
11:15:07  <jottyfan> I wonder where the diffs of the nut files are...
11:15:09  <jottyfan> sorry
11:15:27  <Alberth> np, it happens, especially when you're in a hurry
11:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> wrt that setting: what use is a value range of 0..99 if only 3,2,1 give sane results?
11:16:51  <Eddi|zuHause> also, why not reuse the game setting?
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11:18:42  <jottyfan> now here you go:
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11:19:27  <jottyfan> @Eddi|zuHause: these settings are useful for changing the game in a way the player wants - why not a range from 0 to 99?
11:20:10  <jottyfan> btw. it's not the subsidy factor itself
11:20:29  <jottyfan> it's the factor for the delivered cargo to become reward
11:20:34  <jottyfan> nothing more
11:20:39  <Eddi|zuHause> jottyfan: so setting 0 means no income at all? and between 1 and 2 (which the original setting had a 1.5 option) you have no variation potential?
11:20:49  <jottyfan> correct
11:21:12  <jottyfan> 0 is useful if you want to disable financial rewards for fulfilling jobs
11:21:20  <jottyfan> which is default
11:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and factor 50 or 99 have no use, because both of them mean "make this ridiculously easy"
11:21:47  <jottyfan> but for people like me who want to use that, I'd like to choose for example factor 1
11:21:50  <jottyfan> or 16
11:21:52  <jottyfan> or whatever
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11:22:35  <jottyfan> but if I want to play openttd the easy way, I can choose 99
11:22:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but there is almost no difference between 98 or 99
11:23:01  <Alberth> it sounds too big to me
11:23:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so why have so many options in that range?
11:23:13  <jottyfan> well
11:23:24  <jottyfan> I've just guessed a bit
11:24:00  <jottyfan> one can easily change it to a lower bound before it is included to the official sources (if so)
11:24:20  <Alberth> that would be now :)
11:24:24  <jottyfan> so ok
11:24:31  <Alberth> I can see the point of Eddi
11:24:59  <Alberth> maybe make smaller steps in the low end of the range, and skip most if not all of the top part?
11:25:05  <jottyfan> what about a factor of 10, instead of range 0 - 99 a range of 0 - 9 multiplied by 10?
11:25:25  <Alberth> note that BB gives you a lot of assignments, much more than subsidies
11:26:13  <Alberth> why do you want anything above say 5 ?
11:26:52  <Alberth> maybe even 3 or 4 ?
11:26:57  <jottyfan> ok, so a range from 0 to 4 multiplied by 20?
11:27:42  <jottyfan> I don't know how to make a value of 1.5 in the GSInfo.AddSetting...
11:27:44  <Alberth> 0 to 4 sounds good, perhaps in increments of 0.5?
11:28:34  <Alberth> just use integers 0..9, and divide by 2 in the reward calculation
11:28:47  <Alberth> or 2.0, for that mater
11:28:50  <Alberth> *matter
11:29:21  <Alberth> why do you double town goals?
11:29:38  <jottyfan> did I?
11:29:52  <Alberth> this.reward = this.reward * 2; // for town goals, multiply reward
11:30:38  <Alberth> indenting is wrong in the paste, used a weird tab setting?
11:30:40  <jottyfan> oh yes
11:30:57  <jottyfan> no, I just wanted to make town rewards more attractive
11:31:03  <jottyfan> but this could be a config option, too
11:32:01  <leg> Can I update openTTD server 1.4.1 to 1.5.1 without losing everything?
11:32:07  <jottyfan> about the tab setting - yes, I used kwrite... :-(
11:32:08  <Alberth> towns only seems wrong, it would need balance to both sides
11:32:35  <Alberth> but I am not sure it's wise to add anything like that
11:33:20  <jottyfan> why not a town bonus factor?
11:33:20  <Alberth> leg: just install next to it?
11:33:32  <leg> but will I not lose the map, Alberth?
11:33:38  <leg> if I upgrade the server to 1.5.1
11:34:14  <Alberth> leg: no idea, I never did any server install stuff
11:34:34  <Alberth> but in general, don't overwrite the file, and you should still have it :)
11:35:03  <Alberth> leg: "next to it" specifically means not overwriting anything :)
11:35:14  <Alberth> jottyfan: why only towns?
11:35:44  <jottyfan> ok, so also for industries
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11:36:19  <Alberth> yeah, the main problem is that number of industry cargoes and number of town cargoes is not balanced
11:36:23  <Alberth> hi andy
11:37:26  <jottyfan> should they depend?
11:37:36  <Alberth> they already do
11:38:19  <leg> thanks Alberth
11:38:34  <Alberth> 2xtown means you give more to town goals (for their cargoes), than to industry (for their cargoes)
11:38:58  <Alberth> so if you change the number of cargoes by a different industry set, that balance changes too
11:39:41  <jottyfan> yes
11:39:59  <jottyfan> but if I put that to the config options, the player can choose what the balance is
11:40:27  <jottyfan> what range is good for that? Also 0 to 5 by step 0.5?
11:40:46  <jottyfan> better 1 to 5?
11:41:03  <Alberth> I'd say 0 to 2  in steps of 0.1 or so
11:41:08  <andythenorth> o/
11:41:16  <Alberth> but it needs something with the cargoes
11:42:13  <Alberth> or perhaps I am just overthinking it :)
11:42:32  <jottyfan> yes, that would be best, but I don't know how to get cargo price values in the script
11:42:48  <supermop> yo andy
11:43:25  <Alberth> well, one step at a time
11:43:37  <jottyfan> ok, I'll post the current changes
11:43:44  <Alberth> take out the city reward for now
11:43:44  <jottyfan> but didn't test that yet
11:44:23  <Alberth> tbh I am far from convinced for all this reward tuning
11:45:54  <Alberth> jottyfan: If you want more than just this one step, I think it might be better to make a fork
11:46:35  <jottyfan>
11:46:38  <jottyfan> that's the current code
11:46:40  <jottyfan> ok
11:46:52  <jottyfan> so you would prefer to become this a fork?
11:47:54  <jottyfan> I don't know how to make this a fork
11:47:55  <Alberth> giving a reward is one, I can live with that in BB
11:48:31  <Alberth> further tuning will be a maze of cases that you can or might want to handle
11:48:41  <jottyfan> ok
11:48:51  <Alberth> I am quite sure, there'll be lots of interest in it :)
11:49:09  <jottyfan> so If I remove the reward factor for towns and industries, you may include that patch into busy bee?
11:49:33  <Alberth> jottyfan: if you want a fork, you have to decide where to host it
11:49:49  <jottyfan> yes, and this is making me trouble
11:49:56  <Alberth> ...
11:50:16  <jottyfan> I just wanted to have subsidies for cargodist goods - using busy bee I can
11:50:24  <jottyfan> with that patch
11:50:52  <Alberth> you don't want reward factors?
11:50:54  <jottyfan> but it's just a sort of subsidies
11:51:12  <Alberth> yes, lots of subsidies
11:51:32  <Alberth> BB generates a lot of goals
11:51:52  <jottyfan> I like reward factors, but I cannot take care of a fork for that
11:52:06  <jottyfan> therefore, I'd like to see it in busy bee
11:52:23  <jottyfan> so whenever I come back in let's say a year, download openttd, install game script busy bee
11:52:35  <jottyfan> I can be able to use subsidies for cargodist goods
11:52:38  <jottyfan> that's the idea
11:52:57  <Alberth> so ownership of the project is your problem
11:52:57  <jottyfan> and if I cannot have reward factors for towns and industries, that's ok
11:53:03  <jottyfan> yes
11:53:23  <jottyfan> and therefore, I'd like this little reward patch to be included in the main project
11:53:31  <jottyfan> it's not that much change
11:53:34  <Alberth> andythenorth:  fancy another BB to take care of? :)
11:53:47  <Alberth> do you have a nice name jottyfan?
11:54:12  <jottyfan> to honour busy bee, I just called it busy bee rewards
11:54:22  <jottyfan> but I'm not convinced by that
11:54:24  <jottyfan> :-)
11:55:06  <Alberth> I have no problem with becoming owner of the fork
11:55:15  <Alberth> do you want to become co-owner?
11:55:36  <Alberth> or some other role in the project (don't know exactly what devzone has)
11:55:39  <jottyfan> that would be nice, but I'm always busy, don't have much time for that
11:55:59  <Alberth> please make an account at the devzone
11:56:08  <jottyfan> currently expecting the birth of my second child
11:56:35  <Alberth> hmm :)
11:56:41  <jottyfan> ?
11:57:01  <Alberth>
11:57:50  <jottyfan> a new password - argh
11:57:56  <andythenorth> on the plus side the second one is not as much work as the first one
11:57:59  <jottyfan> if I forget that, a new one is mailed to me?
11:58:16  <andythenorth> on the minus side, it’s still nearly double the work in total :P
11:58:24  <Alberth> jottyfan: don't know, probably
11:58:57  <Alberth> andythenorth: I expect more work here, as there will be more users addicted to getting stuff in return
11:59:06  <jottyfan> what's an OpenID-Url?
11:59:31  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't know that, ignore it
11:59:36  <jottyfan> ok
12:00:29  <Alberth> jottyfan, andythenorth:  Bee Rewards?
12:00:42  <jottyfan> nice
12:01:18  <jottyfan> ok, I've logged in to
12:01:28  <jottyfan> my nick name is jottyfan, as you might expect... :-)
12:01:38  <Alberth> nice and simple to guess :)
12:02:15  <jottyfan> yes
12:02:25  <Alberth> please join #openttdcoop.devzone
12:02:28  <jottyfan> ok, what do I have to do to publish the forked code?
12:03:14  <jottyfan> ok, switched chat room
12:03:18  <jottyfan> so I leave this one
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12:06:26  <Eddi|zuHause> ... you can be in more than one chatroom :p
12:06:42  <NumberNoid> lol
12:18:47  <andythenorth> fork it
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12:32:44  <andythenorth> you developers and your obscure scripting language
12:35:24  <frosch123> i wondered what it refered to :)
12:35:30  <frosch123> i somehow doubt it was squirrel
12:35:35  <frosch123> rather newgrf, or even c++
12:38:00  <NumberNoid> I need to ask, is there any way of setting fare prices?
12:39:29  <Eddi|zuHause> NewGRFs can change them
12:40:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you can adjust all of them up or down by base cost, or you can adjust each one individually in industry grf
12:42:12  <NumberNoid> so I can charge exorbitant fees for planes >:D
12:42:47  <Eddi|zuHause> set plane speed factor to 1
12:42:52  <NumberNoid> done that
12:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> fly large distances
12:43:11  <Eddi|zuHause> swim in money
12:43:33  <Eddi|zuHause> (or turn on airport maintenance and go bankrupt)
12:44:08  <NumberNoid> I don't see that option
12:46:15  <NumberNoid> oh god
12:46:20  <NumberNoid> Ive lost a train
12:46:25  <NumberNoid> I have no idea where its gone
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12:47:00  <NumberNoid> there it is
12:47:10  <NumberNoid> it went on an inter-network voyage to find a depot
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13:50:43  <andythenorth> hmm
13:50:52  <andythenorth> up to 16 livery options per vehicle
13:51:06  <andythenorth> applied by a UI similar to the consist refit UI, which allows partial-selection
13:51:11  <andythenorth> don’t bother with previews, overkill
13:51:17  <andythenorth> nah better it make it 255
13:51:22  <andythenorth> due to WAS and such
13:53:55  <andythenorth> in fact, 16536 might be needed
13:55:37  <andythenorth> all this because I want to choose black or CC tanker wagons :P
14:01:15  <Alberth> :O
14:01:32  <NumberNoid> any way to increase the fast forward speed?
14:01:47  <Alberth> buy a faster computer, or play a smaller world
14:01:57  <Alberth> close the window, or make it smaller
14:02:10  <Alberth> disable some animation stuff
14:02:35  <Alberth> look at trains while they go by
14:02:37  <NumberNoid> im 100% sure my pc is capable of running fastforward faster than this
14:02:53  <Alberth> I am 100% sure it isn't :)
14:03:07  <NumberNoid> fx8320, gtx770, 12gbram?
14:03:07  <Alberth> "fast foward" means "as fast as the computer allows"
14:03:41  <NumberNoid> on realtime
14:03:45  <NumberNoid> nothings changed
14:03:58  <Alberth> note openttd doesn't use much memory, the gpu, or multiple cores (well, it does, but not much)
14:04:08  <NumberNoid> exactly
14:04:16  <NumberNoid> it should be able to run this faster
14:04:21  <NumberNoid> currently at 16% cpu
14:04:28  <NumberNoid> and 800mb ram
14:04:31  <Alberth> yes 1 core full load
14:04:32  <Taede> 6 cores?
14:04:42  <NumberNoid> nope, 8
14:04:54  <NumberNoid> the load is distrubuted primarly though cores 3,4
14:04:57  <Alberth> 100 / 8 is 12.5 %
14:05:21  <NumberNoid> according to task manager its not using any core fully
14:06:04  <Alberth> then it's waiting for video or disk io, or something
14:06:40  <andythenorth> maybe I just change colour by cargo
14:06:52  <andythenorth> weird side effects with station refit, but eh, who cares? o_O
14:06:55  * andythenorth bll
14:06:59  <andythenorth> or bbl
14:07:00  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
14:07:10  <NumberNoid> yeah, diskIO
14:07:37  <NumberNoid> im confused as in why system is using 55MB
14:08:07  <NumberNoid> nvm
14:08:09  <NumberNoid> it just spikes
14:08:14  <NumberNoid> to 3/4
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14:09:23  <Alberth> my guess would be video, especially if you have a large window, and use 32bpp
14:09:39  <NumberNoid> c'mon mate
14:09:45  <NumberNoid> gtx770 rendering sprites
14:09:50  <Alberth> ha, nope
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14:09:56  <Alberth> cpu is rendering sprites
14:10:11  <NumberNoid> any way to force gpu rendering?
14:10:19  <Alberth> yes, rewrite openttd
14:10:27  <NumberNoid> wait
14:10:29  <Alberth> oh, and people tried, and failed
14:10:35  <NumberNoid> openttd is coded to render using cpu?!
14:11:01  <Taede> opengl style patches tended to be slower
14:11:01  <Alberth> yep, TTDX is pre-gpu era
14:11:28  <NumberNoid> O.O
14:11:31  <NumberNoid> that's old
14:11:45  <NumberNoid> time to OC I guess
14:11:49  <NumberNoid> to 4.5GHz
14:12:06  <Taede> previous milennium really
14:12:40  <NumberNoid> Is the other, 3d openttd, like game on steam worth it?
14:13:14  <Alberth> it can't be openttd
14:13:21  <NumberNoid> I guess
14:13:29  <NumberNoid> but does it have the base features of openttd?
14:13:32  <Alberth> maybe a transport-ish game, but it's definitely not openttd
14:13:36  <NumberNoid> i.e. planes, trains, cars
14:13:41  <NumberNoid> plus signalling
14:13:43  <Taede> name f the game?
14:13:52  <Taede> train fever?
14:13:56  <NumberNoid> yeah
14:13:58  <NumberNoid> that
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14:14:07  <Taede> dunno, cant play it on this laptip
14:14:42  <Taede> there may be a thread on the tt-forums about it
14:15:01  <Taede> no doubt itll compare it to openttd
14:15:30  <NumberNoid> Id love to code a 3d openttd but as I mentioned my programming skills are terrible
14:16:55  <Alberth> it probably takes a 10 years if you mostly know what you're doing
14:17:02  <Alberth> if you don't, longer
14:17:30  <Alberth> so it's not a short term project by any means, learning to program can be a good first step
14:17:56  *** supermop [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:19:41  <Alberth> you should focus on the journey, the end product is a nice 'accident' :)
14:22:27  <NumberNoid> a 64x64 map runs considerably faster
14:22:28  <NumberNoid> but
14:22:36  <NumberNoid> still a bit slow
14:33:58  <Alberth> you're supposed to play the game at normal speed :)
14:34:10  <NumberNoid> I don't have all year
14:34:13  <NumberNoid> I wish I did
14:34:14  <NumberNoid> but I don't
14:34:55  <Alberth> hmm, having free time, and still stressed on time?
14:35:32  <Alberth> just save, and continue next time
14:36:40  <Alberth> a single game takes me ages, as I don't play often, but who cares, nobody is setting a deadline
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14:52:37  <andythenorth_> Eh
14:53:01  <andythenorth_> Two kinds of dump truck in Road Hog
14:53:55  <andythenorth_> Farm trucks, and trucks that refit coal, sand, scrap metal, recyclables etc
14:54:12  <andythenorth_> Dunno what to call the second kind
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14:56:07  <Alberth> "trucks" ?
14:57:10  <Alberth> "agriculture trucks"
14:58:05  <andythenorth_> Inorganic Material Dump Trucks? :p
14:58:48  <andythenorth_> Maybe just Dump Truck :p
14:59:08  <Alberth> sounds fine to me
14:59:29  <Alberth> dump truck refitabble to ...  :)
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17:48:37  <kahiru> hey, i was playing openttd (about a year old version) and everything was great and dandy. today  i upgraded to 1.5.1 and the map generator seems broken to me. no matter what i set it generates awful lot of water everywhere
17:56:38  <Alberth> set the water level to custom, and some very low amount?
17:58:20  <kahiru> well, that would be a workaround. i just wanted to ask if this setting should generate a map like this or if its a bug or something
18:00:34  <Alberth> don't know
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18:01:28  <kahiru> and also generating arctic climate map gives me a popup that there was no place for a forrest and that i should tweak my map generating parameters, but nothing seems to work. any ideas?
18:01:28  <frosch123> there is a fs task about very smooth and very flat land generating lots of water
18:01:29  <Alberth> afaik "very low" is still a lot
18:01:38  <kahiru> oh
18:01:51  <frosch123> kahiru: forests only appear above snow line
18:02:16  <kahiru> thanks, didnt know that
18:02:18  <Alberth> in arctic climate, at least :)
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18:13:13  * andythenorth tinkers
18:22:54  <Alberth> good plan
18:54:02  <andythenorth> dunno why I feel the need to be mean to the pipelines guy
18:54:16  <andythenorth> I just suspect he’s a douche
19:00:27  <andythenorth> which is better?
19:00:45  <andythenorth> 1. black tankers for oil, company colour for petrochemicals, determined by vehicle refit
19:01:04  <andythenorth> 2. randomised black / cc on build, if you want a train all one colour, you have to build and delete vehicles until you get the effect you want
19:01:05  <andythenorth> ?
19:06:19  <frosch123> 1.
19:06:24  <Sylf> On the topic of lots of water, if you combine Flat terrain and any variety distribution, it leads to lots of water.  At least that's been my experience
19:06:28  <Sylf> with 1.5
19:07:20  <andythenorth> rebuild-until-desired-color is boring
19:07:40  * andythenorth changes it
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19:24:21  <andythenorth>
19:24:28  <andythenorth> oil, petrol, chemicals
19:24:42  <andythenorth> white ones are food tankers, a different vehicle type
19:33:27  <Alberth> you're polishing them every day :)
19:33:41  <Alberth> but colours are nice
19:34:02  <Alberth> I expected the oil one to be darker
19:34:35  <Alberth> maybe in the game they are different?
19:34:47  <Alberth> the grey walk area seems to be in the way here
19:43:58  <andythenorth> the oil one should probably be darker
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19:57:43  <andythenorth> darker
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20:08:46  <Alberth> better, more distinct from the others
20:12:51  <andythenorth> yup
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21:15:50  <jottyfan> got an error on building game script - what does that mean / how can I solve it?
21:15:53  <jottyfan> python3 lang/english.txt info.nut
21:15:53  <jottyfan> ** Comparing file lang/english.txt, current version and at revision bf1430b223d5df73a0c6ba9c996594a77d497cf1 **
21:15:53  <jottyfan> Compatibility of language files failed.
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23:45:01  <Wolf01> 'night
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