Log for #openttd on 5th July 2015:
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05:36:52  <andythenorth> o/
05:40:35  <Pikka> !?
05:40:54  <andythenorth> it’s a pikka
05:41:00  <Pikka> only occasionally
05:41:03  <Pikka> what are the haps?
05:41:21  * andythenorth has to deliver 1500 tonnes of Iron Ore to Evilville Steel Mill
05:41:33  <Pikka> better get on with it then
05:41:35  <andythenorth> it is 2049
05:41:44  <andythenorth> I have been playing this game since 1965 or so
05:41:54  <andythenorth> and no new vehicles since 2010
05:42:02  <andythenorth> including your AV9 things
05:42:16  <andythenorth> 2016*
05:42:24  <Pikka> It's hard to make futuristic vehicles that aren't boring
05:42:42  <andythenorth> I only intended to play until 2010
05:42:43  <andythenorth> :P
05:42:51  <andythenorth> I blame Busy Bee
05:43:05  <Pikka> what do you think of av9?
05:44:28  <andythenorth> I find it has exactly what I need, where and when I need it
05:44:40  <andythenorth> I don’t use most of the planes
05:44:43  <andythenorth> due to play style
05:44:48  <andythenorth> I don’t care about that
05:45:16  <Pikka> as long as it has what you need
05:45:39  <Pikka> that's the idea, it's there to suppliment and fill in corners
05:47:11  <andythenorth> Ore can deliver itself
05:47:15  * andythenorth should make trams
05:56:05  <andythenorth> Pikka: how many years between road vehicle generations?
05:56:27  <Pikka> 25-odd I think
05:59:17  <andythenorth> 20 seems to work in Road Hog for gameplay
05:59:22  <andythenorth> but 25 has advantages for andythenorth
05:59:24  <andythenorth> :P
05:59:35  <Pikka> one fewer over 100 years?
05:59:38  <andythenorth> yup
06:00:12  <andythenorth> 11 fewer trucks to  draw + code
06:00:47  <Alberth> mornink all
06:00:56  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
06:11:43  * andythenorth needs a safe word for Busy Bee
06:11:57  <andythenorth> I can’t abandon my game with goals part-met :P
06:12:10  <andythenorth> untidy
06:14:51  <Alberth> some end year ?
06:15:22  <Alberth> or a sign "enough!"  :)
06:15:22  <andythenorth> nah
06:16:08  <andythenorth> I’ll wait until I’ve changed some newgrf so much it breaks savegames
06:16:13  <andythenorth> or a new Busy Bee :P
06:16:26  <Alberth> :)
06:16:51  <Alberth> just "accidently" loose the game file
06:24:51  <andythenorth> ha
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06:26:45  <supermop> hi
06:30:38  <andythenorth> eh
06:30:46  <andythenorth> maybe 30 years is actually better
06:30:57  <andythenorth> then the stats increases are significant
06:38:45  <supermop> hmm i am 30 and i can say my stats have not really increased significantly
06:39:07  <andythenorth> they will from now on
06:39:23  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but maybe the stats of the next generation around you?
06:39:48  <supermop> oh yeah those guys are way better than me at everything Eddi|zuHause
06:40:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: time between different generation needs to be lower than the lifetime of the vehicles
06:42:12  <andythenorth> vehicle, or model?
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06:44:29  <andythenorth> wow, OpenTTD has scroll support :o
06:59:12  <Pikka> I don't know if my stat increases are significant
06:59:45  <Pikka> but then I'm treating my road vehicles like the planes - they're for filling in the corners around trains rather than being universally useful transport. ;)
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07:34:15  <mari_kiri> Woohoo, finally built a working SRNW in a local game
07:34:50  <mari_kiri> Quite basic but it delivers water to water towers
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08:09:34  <Wolf01> hi hi
08:10:11  <Wolf01> I just restored the original colour of some LEGO Technic sets :D
08:15:04  <andythenorth> washed them?
08:15:33  <Wolf01> no, I had to use the air compressor because they were plenty of stickers
08:18:39  <Wolf01> and I "can't" disassemble them because most of the old axles relatd pieces have cracks on them and I feel they won't be capable of staying together again
08:19:22  <Wolf01> I think the next bricklink order will be full of those pieces
08:22:25  <Alberth> hi hi
08:22:36  <Taede> ello
08:29:55  <mari_kiri> Also finally made a not gate, might have to have a go at a few other things
08:30:37  <Wolf01> make a nand and open the road for *everything*
08:32:54  <mari_kiri> I suspect I'd know how to make nand and nor
08:36:47  <supermop> i got confused and thought someone was saying they made a technic nand gate
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08:37:19  <Wolf01> I think mechanical logic gates are possible, but I'm not a mechanic :D
08:37:54  <andythenorth> there are videos of technic logic gates
08:38:08  <supermop> im sure they are possible,
08:38:10  <andythenorth> most combinations can be done mechanically
08:38:17  <supermop> but id be astounded none he less
08:38:35  <andythenorth>
08:41:29  <mari_kiri> Yeah I've managed to suss out NAND + NOR
08:42:05  <Wolf01> interesting, but the problem is that you can't attach a motor to them, maybe you can attach a keyboard
08:42:30  <andythenorth> hmm
08:42:40  <andythenorth> sometimes it would be nice if RVs could be refitted within a range
08:42:41  <andythenorth> nvm
08:42:53  <andythenorth> (for capacity)
08:43:16  <Wolf01> I was able to build an and gate with a differential, but I have no clue on how to build a mechanical not gate... the torque won't generate from thin air
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08:49:24  * andythenorth must to trams now
08:49:32  <andythenorth> have any of you lot played Road Hog? o_O
08:49:54  <supermop> yeah
08:50:30  <supermop> trams are a bit frustrating until the two hills or whatever shows up
08:51:29  <andythenorth> what do you miss?
08:51:55  <supermop> i want 300 person trams that load instantly in 1600
08:52:06  <andythenorth> ‘boats’
08:52:15  <andythenorth> just do venice :P
08:52:40  <supermop> but basically i think the performance gap between the balloon and modern tram is too great
08:53:03  <supermop> they are essentially different types of vehicle so not a fuid upgrade
08:53:27  <supermop> but i assume that is the point as the UK basically did not have mid-century trams
08:53:30  <andythenorth> it’s only a capacity jump of 270% :P
08:53:35  <andythenorth> where’s the problem?
08:53:45  <supermop> haha
08:53:48  <andythenorth> yeah, the UK lacked trams, but I’m bored of the history lesson now
08:53:54  <andythenorth> history lesson = bad game
08:54:17  <supermop> well maybe egrvts is not so mad an approach
08:54:39  <supermop> in that double deck and single deck trams have different lineages
08:55:18  <andythenorth> this could be a point
08:55:29  <andythenorth> that’s how buses / coaches are handled
08:55:42  <supermop> also if one is two lazy to properly timetable, you cant cheat it by making a 'dripper' of a stop with 10 day or whatever wait, and using long trams
08:56:03  <supermop> that will roughly keep trams evenly spaces if you spam enough of them
08:56:49  <supermop> i associate double deck trams with uk and hk, and articulated trams with aus and europe
08:57:33  <supermop> not sure if RH will have different rosters, but you could have a better double deck tram between the balloon and two hills
08:57:55  <supermop> or an earlier worse articulated tram that loads faster than balloon
08:58:32  <supermop> sometimes i end up overcapacity with the balloon but can work around it
08:58:58  <andythenorth> can’t find any mid-century UK prototypes for articulated
08:59:05  <andythenorth> but I could put two single trams together
08:59:23  <supermop> well no need to limit yourself to reality
08:59:50  <supermop> then again caould just keep it as is and tell users thats what they get for playing a british themed game
09:02:02  <andythenorth> hmm
09:02:07  <andythenorth> what’s the gameplay distinction?
09:03:05  <supermop> between double deck vs articulated?
09:03:38  <andythenorth> yup
09:03:50  <andythenorth> just capacity?
09:04:11  <supermop> can fit more double deck in a length of road for a given capacity, articulated can load fasted (if you code as such)
09:04:23  <supermop> is how i would intuit it
09:05:29  <supermop> presumably for less capacity one would have a single deck single car tram, but i don't think you'd ever need that with most house sets
09:06:19  <supermop> unless it's a hardcore tram focused set i don't think most people will care
09:06:44  <supermop> people just want to move around people quickly two and from rail stations
09:09:47  <Supercheese> ugh, nml cache issue
09:09:55  <Supercheese> I knew my code wasn't wrong
09:10:01  * Supercheese mutters
09:13:30  <andythenorth> ‘make clean’ :P
09:13:34  <andythenorth> is your friend
09:15:02  <andythenorth> twin car, 1950s
09:15:05  * Supercheese does not use any sort of "make"
09:15:13  <Supercheese> makefiles confuse me greatly
09:15:35  <mari_kiri> $ vim Makefile
09:15:42  <mari_kiri> If you see one that is
09:15:53  * Supercheese has no idea what that is
09:16:11  <mari_kiri> Makefiles are pretty straightforward, just open a few in vim
09:16:37  <supermop> that pantograph tower seems to imply this creature had to share the road with double-deckers as well
09:16:48  * Supercheese does not use any sort of "vim"
09:17:00  <Supercheese> although in Bioshock I did use Vigors ;)
09:17:55  <supermop> andythenorth: maybe thinking too much on trams is a bit fruitless with the way tram tracks work
09:18:30  <andythenorth> I need to think just enough to put them in the grf ;)
09:18:32  <supermop> various types of historical configurations are going to end up pretty homogenized
09:18:33  <andythenorth> and not more
09:18:49  <andythenorth> there are very few gameplay points for trams
09:19:02  <supermop> tram tracks and junctions are highly simplified
09:19:02  <andythenorth> fast / slow, big / small
09:19:25  <supermop> anything past loading speed and capacity is insignificant
09:20:18  <supermop> tram track is too clunky for interurbans except in most cases so top speed doesn't matter
09:21:13  <supermop> i find you can timetable 2 days for a tram to turn around at end of line for almost every tram from 1900 to 2100 in any game or set ive ever used
09:22:19  <supermop> egrvts could also have used something before the first two car tram though
09:24:22  <andythenorth> North American, Euro rosters will probably have interurbans
09:24:26  <andythenorth> UK, not
09:30:37  <supermop> not sure if fast trams are that useful in game though
09:30:51  <andythenorth> 65mph
09:30:56  <andythenorth> fast enough
09:31:12  <andythenorth> I dunno, feel like just one progression of trams is enough
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09:32:30  <supermop> nah i mean trams are fast enough in most of my games
09:32:40  <andythenorth> eh solved: more buses earlier
09:32:44  <andythenorth> and trams are always just big
09:32:50  <andythenorth> then the progression is simples
09:33:05  <supermop> i never find myself needing a small fast intercity tram: i would always use a train for that
09:34:21  <V453000> moar pondering
09:35:05  <andythenorth>
09:35:38  <Supercheese> baking bread on the boiler, ha
09:37:36  <supermop> andythenorth: please make a steam coach in RH called "The infernal Difiance"
09:37:42  <supermop> defiance
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09:44:51  <Supercheese> Difference engine, meet defiance engine
09:47:12  <Supercheese> bloody cache at it again
09:47:21  <Supercheese> should disable it
09:48:40  <andythenorth> nah
09:48:43  <andythenorth> way slower
09:48:58  <Supercheese> but this is the second time tonight it's messed up my perfectly fine code
09:49:07  <Supercheese> or well, messed up the grf generated anyway
09:49:54  <Supercheese> and I do not mind the extra ~3 seconds or so
09:50:35  <supermop> sold our fridge and now i have to keep beer outside
09:50:46  <supermop> doesnt seem cold enough
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10:00:37  <Supercheese> dig a hole? Might be cooler a bit down
10:00:56  <Supercheese> if you've no cellar
10:01:19  <Supercheese> even if*
10:07:36  <supermop> actually i've never seen a house with a basement in melbourne
10:07:41  <supermop> quite odd
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10:12:49  * andythenorth -> chores
10:12:56  <andythenorth> someone fix the trams while I’m gone, ta
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11:36:02  <rav> wow, adding custom sprites is hard! after digging around, I've found out how to patch media/extra_grf/openttd.nfo, src/newgrf.cpp, src/table/sprites.h, and the separately packaged projects opengfx, grfcodec and nml. to my naive eyes it looks like a lot of code duplication across several projects :-(
11:38:32  <rav> is there a secret way of keeping all those projects synchronized?
11:45:10  <Alberth> oher than knowing how it works? not really :)
11:46:32  <Alberth> not sure you'd have to bother with opengfx, grfcodec and nml at this point
11:47:01  <peter1138> grfcodec you do, else it won't let you add anything new
11:47:14  <peter1138> someone made it clever ;(
11:47:16  <Alberth> :o good point
11:48:11  <Alberth> ah, 'intelligent' software, such a pain :(
11:54:16  <rav> nml is also clever...
11:54:53  <rav> I had to add an entry to action5_table in nml/actions/
11:55:30  <Alberth> yeah, but openttd doesn't depend on it
11:56:16  <Alberth> ie nml is only relevant after your patch has been integrated into openttd
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12:01:04  <andythenorth> so
12:01:10  <andythenorth> is OpenTTD actually dead now? o_O
12:04:17  <Alberth> define a measurement of deadness, and you'll know :)
12:08:20  <andythenorth> no longer dying
12:08:20  <andythenorth> ?
12:09:25  <andythenorth> there are only 2 of you left making regular commits
12:09:49  <andythenorth> forums are just Baldy’s Boss and newbies from Reddit asking questions that were already old in 2008
12:10:18  <andythenorth> irc is just andythenorth writing monologues
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12:11:50  <andythenorth> I’ve just played an 80 year game, and there are no interestingly broken or missing features
12:12:38  <andythenorth> newgrf is ‘solved’, except for RVs and maybe ships
12:12:57  <andythenorth> gameplay and economy variation is provably solved by GS
12:13:06  <andythenorth> content comes from bananas
12:13:12  <andythenorth> translation is sorted
12:13:45  <andythenorth> there are no factions left in the openttd community, all the outsiders got bored or driven away
12:30:35  <Alberth> sounds like it is then :)
12:31:26  * andythenorth wonders where all the programmers came from
12:31:43  <andythenorth> did they play original TTD in the 1990s?
12:32:35  <Alberth> quite likely, or at least simulation-ish games, I think
12:32:54  <andythenorth> there was a cohort of people with significant capability :)
12:33:32  <andythenorth> and now
12:33:34  <andythenorth> there is not :)
12:33:51  <Alberth> programming in the previous century implied getting your hands dirty in the compiled languages
12:34:16  <Alberth> except for BASIC :)
12:34:23  <andythenorth> ha
12:34:33  * andythenorth never got beyond BASIC :)
12:34:56  <Alberth> but even there you had a lot of POKE and PEEK stuff
12:36:14  <Alberth> a lot of todays programmers grew up with GPU and 3d rendering
12:36:35  <Alberth> combined with C# or so
12:36:58  <andythenorth> or javascript
12:37:06  <Alberth> sure
12:37:29  <Alberth> but then it's a long way to C++ stuff in openttd style
12:37:58  <Alberth> not to mention the graphics look ancient to those programmers
12:38:48  <andythenorth> +1
12:47:00  <andythenorth> are there any interesting patches?
12:51:39  <Alberth> my notion of 'interesting' is quite skewed wrt general opinion :)
12:58:17  <rav> nice, my autoroad sprites are working:
12:58:30  <rav> (waiting for YouTube to process my 15 second screencast)
12:58:44  <rav> I'll be back in 30-60 minutes
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15:14:26  <andythenorth>  hmm
15:14:29  <andythenorth> freight trams next
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15:16:46  <fjb_mobile> Moin.
15:18:35  <Alberth> moin
15:19:02  <andythenorth> o/
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15:51:02  * andythenorth thinks that freight trams are long-lived
15:51:10  <andythenorth> and stats don’t change much
15:51:18  <andythenorth> more power, higher speed, same capacity
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16:16:58  <andythenorth> logger
16:17:29  <andythenorth> they’re quite big
16:18:15  <Alberth> sufficient space off-road :)
16:18:34  <Alberth> I wonder what goes wrong if you don't increase stats
16:19:15  <andythenorth> if there are no increases at all?
16:19:24  <andythenorth> redundant vehicles :)
16:19:41  <Alberth> sure
16:20:06  <Alberth> but nuts has models with 255 year lifetime, yet you get increasing stats all the time
16:20:48  <Alberth> so what 's the game play goal for increasing stats?
16:21:09  <andythenorth> micro-management
16:21:23  <andythenorth> also keeps up with increased industry + town production
16:21:50  <andythenorth> not all micro-management is bad
16:22:58  <Alberth> yeah, increasing produnction seems a good reason
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16:23:28  <andythenorth> also, the speed of earlier vehicles is annoying
16:23:44  <andythenorth> and there’s a sense of achievment when the vehicles are better
16:23:49  <andythenorth> despite that the player did little :)
16:24:15  * andythenorth has considered some kind of technology ladder before :P
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17:58:17  <Alberth> evenink
18:07:05  <andythenorth> quak
18:11:27  <frosch123> hoi
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19:38:01  <Supercheese> nice autoroad improvement, rav
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19:41:38  <rav> thank you
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19:52:48  <rav> the autoroad patch is here -- hopefully I'll get the time to submit it at some point:
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22:01:15  <Eddi|zuHause> the thing i love most about election nights is that everybody has a completely different opinion on what the result actually means
22:11:35  <Wolf01> 'night
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