Log for #openttd on 7th July 2015:
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00:05:47  <Supercheese> Hope the devzone compiles my changeset
00:05:54  <Supercheese> ah crap
00:06:31  <Supercheese> forgot the sprite files
00:10:50  <Supercheese> excellent
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08:33:59  <Nemoder> I think I found a bug, I had just enough money to buy a train depot but only enough for one of the rail connections, after I bought the 2nd track I got a desync
08:35:04  <Nemoder> when I reconnected the train on the track was much farther along, as if the 2nd track had always been there
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09:03:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Nemoder: bugs like this are almost impossible to fix without a way to reproduce them quickly
09:04:26  <Nemoder> understandable
09:06:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Nemoder: the cause for a desync was likely way before it was noticed
09:07:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Nemoder: so the desync wasn't related to building the depot at all
09:07:10  <Nemoder> possibly, but I was the only one connected and hadn't been doing anything else for quite some time
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09:09:24  <Nemoder> I'd try to reproduce it but now I'm busy trying to build an empire :P
09:09:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. that makes things worse. because the less you do, the longer the desync will stay undetected
09:10:26  <Eddi|zuHause> at some point, the desync resulted in the server thinking you have more money than your client did, so the server built the additional rail right away, while your client didn't
09:10:43  <Nemoder> ya that makes sense
09:20:34  <Supercheese> good night
09:23:27  <planetmaker> Nemoder, a desync bug needs action by the server administrator. They need to enable desync debugging on the machine, load a savegame and then wait till it was reproduced by a player
09:24:25  <Nemoder> It's my server, but this was the first desync I've ever had on it.  perhaps one of the mods isn't as happy with the new 1.5.1
09:24:28  <planetmaker> <-- this is a well-reported desync. And unfortunately with anything less, it's near-to-impossible to find and fix it
09:25:04  <planetmaker> mods? If you use faked revisions clients, then of course desyncs are likely
09:25:26  <planetmaker> we can only debug desyncs when both, server and client were built from the exact same source code
09:25:36  <planetmaker> In all other cases, desyncs are rather expected than not
09:26:03  <Nemoder> an not source mod, just newgrf stuff
09:26:10  <planetmaker> ah, sorry.
09:26:44  <planetmaker> They should not matter. But some NewGRFs maybe use a feature which is needed to trigger it. It's still an OpenTTD bug, though
09:26:46  <Nemoder> but ya, that's why I mentioned it casually here instead of proper bug report :)
09:27:12  <planetmaker> NewGRFs are an officially supported thing. They must not trigger bugs :)
09:27:15  <Nemoder> I'll just keep playing and see if it ever happens again
09:27:29  <planetmaker> Nemoder, if you want to see it fixed, enable desync debugging, if you can
09:27:52  <planetmaker> <-- follow these steps
09:28:29  <Nemoder> ya, i'll see if it happens more than once then look into that
09:30:36  <planetmaker> it's worth to dig into it when you saw it once. The more seldom it occurs, the harder to find. And it's not like you can't simply continue to play and try find that desync with desync debugging enabled at the same time
09:31:09  <planetmaker> the only backdraw is that it costs performance on the server side and disk space there. But if nothing is found, simply clean all those savegames and the log file
09:32:12  <planetmaker> and yes, there sadly is really no other way than people who see it to produce the data and give it to us. There's so many variables we are unable to find it ourselves by simply looking and playing
09:32:32  <planetmaker> (and those which we do, are rather quickly fixed, but there's so many NewGRFs and playing styles...)
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10:38:45  <peter1138> me o'clock
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12:16:23  <supermop_> tried a new ramen place
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12:52:44  <andythenorth> o/
13:05:49  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause are the optimum lengths (in n/8 units) for trams in tram stops?
13:06:17  <andythenorth> I want to give trams a significant density advantage (capacity / length) compared to trucks, at the cost of lower speed
13:06:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's a huge difference in efficiency between 1.5 tiles and 2 tiles
13:06:58  <andythenorth> oops, I missed ‘what’ at the start of my question, sorry :|
13:07:03  <planetmaker> andythenorth, 'density' advantage is easiest done by giving it higher capacity. Not necessarily by making them longer. It's independent choices :)
13:07:37  <andythenorth> is 2x the capacity at 2x the length and advantage?
13:07:49  <andythenorth> are the two dimensions orthogonal?
13:07:56  <andythenorth> an / and /s
13:07:58  * andythenorth has typing troubles
13:08:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd make between 1 and 1.5 tiles, probably
13:08:26  <andythenorth> 1 tile is 16/8?
13:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:08:38  <Eddi|zuHause> shorter than 1 has issues with overtaking at end stations
13:09:07  <Eddi|zuHause> because before the 1st one arrives and marks the platform as occupied, the 2nd one has already chosen a platform
13:09:09  <andythenorth> so 2 units at 8/8
13:09:33  <andythenorth> or 6/8 engine, 5/8 + 5/8 wagons
13:10:02  <Eddi|zuHause> and 2 or longer means you have to increase station size significantly for multiple units loading at the same time
13:10:09  <andythenorth> yeah, that’s tedious
13:10:22  <andythenorth> the long refit for HEQS trams is annoying in practice
13:10:31  <Eddi|zuHause> this, however is most significant for passenger trams
13:10:53  <Eddi|zuHause> so i'd say 1.5 gives the optimum result
13:10:54  <andythenorth> long trams results in trams that behave like trains w.r.t to blocking, but don’t have any signals etc to handle routing proably
13:11:02  <andythenorth> properly *
13:11:09  * andythenorth is going to go away and drink coffee
13:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe 1.2
13:11:43  <andythenorth> 24/8 or 20/8
13:12:03  <Eddi|zuHause> 3x6/8
13:13:47  <andythenorth> hmm
13:13:57  <andythenorth> current vehicles are annoyingly 7/8
13:14:14  <andythenorth> but they need redrawing anyway
13:18:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i suppose 3x7/8 would work
13:18:26  <andythenorth> doesn’t seem optimum though
13:18:51  <andythenorth> currently only 75t capacity for 21/8 length
13:19:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on how exaggerated your truck capacities are
13:22:53  <andythenorth> approx 200% of RL
13:23:03  <andythenorth> as a rough guide
13:23:45  <andythenorth> 30t or 40t
13:23:55  <andythenorth> for the ‘brit’ and ‘euro’ rosters
13:24:43  <andythenorth> typically that would be around 8/8 long
13:25:03  <andythenorth> 1 cab + 1 trailer
13:26:33  <andythenorth> (RL is no guide but
) RL trams have axle loads of about 10t, so a 4 axle tram would be 40t gross
13:26:41  <andythenorth> of which about 50% would be payload
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14:43:32  <planetmaker> Alberth, *prove* wrong ;)
14:44:12  <planetmaker> Alberth, and you could throw in for reference - that both you and him underestimate the work ;)
14:47:14  <Alberth> hmm, website is failing for me
14:47:21  <Alberth> perhaps my provider
14:49:25  <planetmaker> it quotes 63 years of work for 241k LOC on OpenTTD using the COCOMO model
14:49:38  <planetmaker> the difference of 60k LOC is probably the comments
14:50:07  <planetmaker> and blanks
14:50:56  <planetmaker> anyway, I think your reply is a very nice one
14:51:09  <planetmaker> as was your original answer
14:51:37  <Alberth> thanks for the additions
14:52:34  <planetmaker> :) No worries
14:52:46  <Alberth> I doubt it will help, but it never hurts to try :p
14:53:19  <planetmaker> the answer probably won't sway the person you replied to. But is useful for nearly everyone else :)
14:54:05  * planetmaker --> shopping
14:59:48  <peter1138> BLACK DUCK OPENHUB
14:59:53  <peter1138> Because "ohloh" was too hard
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15:09:14  <Alberth> it wasn't 'open' enough :)
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15:47:01  <Eddi|zuHause> "with   decreasing Y-O-Y commits" <-- so they also agree, openttd is dying :p
15:47:09  <andythenorth> dead
15:47:10  <andythenorth> not dying
15:47:22  <andythenorth> all the problems are solved
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16:24:27  <andythenorth> really?
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16:24:38  <andythenorth> pissing contests about LoC count? :o
16:24:42  <andythenorth> :)
16:25:43  <planetmaker> :)
16:26:18  <andythenorth> everyone talking about LoC should go into management :)
16:26:28  <andythenorth> and pay programmers according to how many LoC they write :)
16:26:32  <andythenorth> that works well
16:27:14  <planetmaker> :D
16:27:27  <andythenorth> FIRS is 354958 LoC :P
16:33:17  <Alberth> I'll stop cleaning up code then :p
16:33:37  <andythenorth> does that reduce LoC? o_O
16:33:57  <Alberth> it happens yes
16:35:00  <Alberth> it's like the transfer problem, you think you need N, but later someone shows you can do with N-M  :)
16:38:06  <andythenorth> has anyone done a linkgraph of dependencies in openttd?
16:38:23  <andythenorth> I can write 300k LoC to do things like generate web pages
16:38:26  <andythenorth> where nothing is connected :P
16:39:04  <Alberth> firs will have that too, I think
16:39:39  <andythenorth> _most_ of my newgrf compiles would have low-connectedness
16:39:50  <andythenorth> not all, but mostly I achieved it
16:39:57  <andythenorth> whereas OpenTTD is probably very connected
16:40:25  <Alberth> I would expect so :)
16:41:05  <andythenorth> eh
16:41:06  <andythenorth> also
16:41:29  <andythenorth> the estimates for ‘from scratch’ should figure in ‘build a community'
16:41:34  <andythenorth> or ‘do all your own QA'
16:41:59  <andythenorth> as well as ‘now you have to do support for players'
16:42:16  <andythenorth> ‘now you need automated builds'
16:42:28  <andythenorth> ‘now you need to maintain your cross-platform toolchain'
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16:42:33  <andythenorth> LoC is silly :)
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16:48:24  <frosch123> read it as "lines of comments" and it is better :p
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17:47:53  * andythenorth wonders about ‘lines of bugs'
17:49:46  <michi_cc> That's identical to lines of code, isn't it? :p
17:50:09  <frosch123> i have seen code with a ratio of 1 to 5
17:50:23  <frosch123> 1 easy to spot bug per 5 lines
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17:53:28  <andythenorth> I aim for 1 per line
17:53:39  <andythenorth> more than that is not a good sign
17:55:40  <andythenorth> hmm
17:55:43  <andythenorth> this game might finally be over
17:55:48  * andythenorth played 1970-2050
17:55:54  <Alberth> :o
17:56:08  <andythenorth> BB has given me a run of boring goals :)
17:56:24  <andythenorth> either I win them automatically due to service provided already
17:56:26  <Alberth> it's trying to encourage you to stop :p
17:56:38  <andythenorth> or there’s no convenient source for the required cargo
17:56:45  <andythenorth> and I made myself a ‘no funding’ rule :P
17:56:49  <Alberth> hmm, there should be
17:57:07  <andythenorth> I could use planes :P
17:57:30  * andythenorth screenshots the whole map :P
17:59:23  <andythenorth> only 32MB
18:06:40  <andythenorth> wow
18:06:49  <andythenorth> OpenTTD’s screenshot compression is aggressive
18:06:57  <andythenorth> 865MB -> 32MB
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18:08:30  <Alberth> :)
18:08:30  <andythenorth> photoshop is giving me OOM warnings about attempting to export the same image
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18:10:57  <andythenorth> Alberth:,%2007-02-2050%20export.png
18:11:07  <andythenorth> about 50% of the connections are due to BB goals
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18:26:23  <andythenorth> Alberth: any Bee features we should add?
18:26:27  * andythenorth is going to start a new game
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18:38:43  <Alberth> download fails, I can't seem to connect to most of the internet this evening :(
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18:47:11  <andythenorth> slow internet is slow :P
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18:55:02  <Supercheese> I don't think I've ever bothered to obtain grfcodec source
18:55:09  <Supercheese> since I always use NML
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18:56:11  <frosch123> who would want grfcodec :p
18:56:55  <Rubidium> Dale?
18:58:02  <Supercheese> pm suggested I also patch grfcodec to support a new animation trigger
18:58:09  <andythenorth> Iron Horse uses grfcodec
18:58:17  <frosch123> i doubt nforenum knows about animation triggers
18:58:18  <andythenorth> although that might be a dubious choice
18:58:49  <Supercheese> I don't entirely know what would be required
18:58:56  <Supercheese> NML just wanted a new global constant defined
18:59:13  <Supercheese> but just using bit 5 without the global constant was perfectly fine too
19:10:00  * andythenorth adventures in trams :P
19:10:38  <andythenorth> Alberth: do you have an opinion on trying to prevent repeating goals in BB? :)
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19:11:04  <Alberth> yes
19:11:07  <Alberth> hi W
19:11:16  <Alberth> it should avoid them imho
19:11:20  <Wolf01> hi hi
19:11:30  <andythenorth> can we just track the destination-cargo pairs?
19:11:57  <Alberth> should be possible
19:12:03  * andythenorth has deadlocked flash games that way
19:12:06  <andythenorth> unclosed loop
19:12:16  <andythenorth> but eh, that’s maybe not a problem here
19:12:17  <Alberth> but eventually you'll run out of goals then
19:12:23  <frosch123> the cheap method would be: decide for a goal, hide it for a while, and only if it is not completed within 3 months, actually annouce it as goal
19:12:29  <andythenorth> ha
19:12:51  <andythenorth> this is why andythenorth can be an engineer and product designer, but not a programmer :(
19:12:57  <andythenorth> I never think of things like that
19:13:19  <Alberth> it's experience :)
19:13:25  <andythenorth> nah, it’s brain
19:13:34  <andythenorth> I have more experience than lots of people here
19:13:50  <andythenorth> @calc (37-5)/37
19:13:50  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.864864864865
19:13:57  <andythenorth> 86% of my life :P
19:14:02  <Alberth> I am sure you can come up with neat tricks in engineering or product designs
19:14:14  <andythenorth> mostly I design things to try and avoid programming :P
19:14:37  <Alberth> do they work?
19:14:39  <andythenorth> mostly
19:14:43  <andythenorth> meta-programming :P
19:14:44  <Alberth> qed
19:15:20  <andythenorth> maybe I just ‘solved’ my tram roster
19:16:01  <andythenorth> gen 1 is steam engine + wagons
19:16:06  <andythenorth> gen 2 is this style
19:16:25  <peter1138> just shove everything in
19:16:41  <andythenorth> gen 3 this style
19:16:46  <andythenorth> peter1138: no no no
19:16:58  <andythenorth> I have to shove it in, but pretend there’s a rationale :P
19:17:25  <andythenorth> also I need to minimise drawing
19:19:17  <frosch123> maybe try making vehicles like industries
19:19:24  <frosch123> draw some partial vehicles
19:19:35  <frosch123> and recombine them into many vehicles
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19:28:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: oddly enough
19:29:08  <frosch123> make some inclined vans
19:29:30  <frosch123> where the front part is higher than the rear part
19:29:41  <andythenorth> o_O
19:29:41  <frosch123> looks weird, but less regular
19:29:54  <frosch123> it even seems to be common for some tank wagons
19:29:57  <andythenorth> oh step-frame trailers?
19:30:38  <frosch123>
19:30:58  <andythenorth> oh sloped :)
19:31:04  <andythenorth> in 8bpp? o_O
19:31:20  <andythenorth> at 1x zoom
19:32:56  <frosch123> <- or some flatbed loaders with cargo on different levels
19:33:11  <andythenorth> yeah that’s step-frame
19:33:16  <andythenorth> trucks in trucks :)
19:35:17  <frosch123> <- hmm, i guess that glitches in ottd
19:36:05  <andythenorth> why? :)
19:36:31  <frosch123> trailer is above cabin, not purely behind it
19:36:40  <andythenorth> nah it’s a rigid truck ;)
19:36:47  <andythenorth> ‘overtaking permitted’ :P
19:37:09  <andythenorth> overlapping that way does work with trailers, but yeah, not perfect
19:37:35  <andythenorth> have to cut pixels out of the cab
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19:40:34  <frosch123> anyway, i mean the trailers could be more irregular shaped
19:40:49  <frosch123> instead of rectangular
19:41:29  <andythenorth> agreed
19:41:49  <andythenorth> the set needs some feedback tbh
19:41:53  <andythenorth> I am a bit stuck with it
19:42:02  <andythenorth> and Nobody Uses RVs :P
19:43:30  <frosch123> i would use them, if they had some advantage over trams :)
19:44:08  <andythenorth> what qualifies as advantage?
19:44:13  <andythenorth> and which trams? :P
19:44:36  <frosch123> i use them for short distance feeder services
19:44:40  <frosch123> where other people station-walk
19:44:54  <frosch123> they do not need to be fast
19:45:02  <frosch123> but they need high capacity on little space
19:45:40  <andythenorth> how much is ‘high'
19:45:54  <andythenorth> looking at HEQS, the capacities are quite high
19:46:14  <frosch123> servicing 500 units per month using a single road stop
19:46:38  <andythenorth> 125t per tram?
19:46:47  <frosch123> usually i use the medium length
19:46:50  <andythenorth> yeah
19:46:51  <frosch123> 80t or so
19:47:27  <frosch123> so, maybe rv could be faster accelerating than trams
19:47:34  <frosch123> so they free the stop faster
19:47:41  <andythenorth> cheat the TE?
19:47:46  <andythenorth> hmm
19:47:57  <frosch123> big TE and big loading speed
19:48:01  <frosch123> and not too small capacity
19:48:17  <andythenorth> Road Hog trucks are 30-40t
19:48:20  <andythenorth> seems to work
19:48:52  <andythenorth> they struggle to reach top speed though :P
19:49:52  <andythenorth> so trams need to be 80t-150t or so
19:50:01  <andythenorth> within a 16/8 length
19:50:07  <andythenorth> or a 24/8 length
19:51:15  <andythenorth> so probably 40t per unit or so
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20:02:46  <andythenorth> frosch123: 25mph / 35mph / 45mph? (3 generations 1860-1960)
20:02:49  <andythenorth> or so
20:03:48  *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd []
20:05:53  <frosch123> @calc 45*1.6
20:05:53  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 72
20:06:09  <frosch123> @calc 120/1.6
20:06:09  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 75
20:06:22  <frosch123> add another generation 1990 with 75 mph?
20:06:51  <frosch123> hmm, maybe only 65
20:12:09  *** JacobD88 [] has joined #openttd
20:14:33  <andythenorth> oddly enough
20:14:41  <andythenorth> yes
20:14:51  * andythenorth hoped someone would suggest that
20:15:10  <andythenorth> now I just need the option for diesel trams :P
20:23:48  <andythenorth> ha
20:23:55  <andythenorth> the Baldy’s Boss bot is still posting :)
20:24:05  <andythenorth> whoever wrote that code has a good sense of humour
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20:41:55  <andythenorth> also
20:41:56  <andythenorth> bed
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21:21:36  * planetmaker ponders the airplane landing trigger patch
21:24:25  <frosch123> it should pass something usefil in var18
21:24:29  <frosch123> just not sure what :p
21:24:43  <frosch123> not sure whether there is a runway id in the statemachine
21:24:59  <frosch123> and it should also trigger for heliports then
21:25:11  <frosch123> and likely also for taking off :)
21:26:05  <planetmaker> hm, taking off does not cause black stuff on the runway :)
21:26:18  <planetmaker> so it would need means to distinguish take-off and touch-down
21:26:31  <frosch123> yes, i think the current patch is over-specific
21:26:55  <frosch123> only triggering for planes is stupid, instead there should be a var which indicates that
21:27:40  <frosch123> something like runway/heliport id
21:27:47  <frosch123> and possibly a second trigger for takeoff
21:28:00  <frosch123> though not sure whether takeoff triggers at the start or end of takeoff
21:28:25  <frosch123> so, possibly touchdown only is better defined for now
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21:37:49  <planetmaker> hm, yes... landings only. But all, both heli and plane
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21:41:45  <frosch123> doesn't look like the runways are numbered in current state machines
21:43:19  <planetmaker> any numbering scheme would be arbitrary. And make any newgrf airports even more difficult :)
21:44:10  <frosch123> well, one could use the state number :p
21:44:24  <frosch123> but it has not been as constant in the past
21:44:31  <frosch123> people kept on changing the state machines
21:44:37  <frosch123> to make them more efficient
21:44:50  <frosch123> otoh, number of runways do not change :p
21:45:17  <planetmaker> but for really custom airports? Also, for the existing ones, how are the runways numbered?
21:45:57  <frosch123> whatever provides the graphics always has runways in specific positions ni mind
21:46:09  <frosch123> it does not matter whether the airports would be big entities, or tile based
21:46:22  <frosch123> the graphics would always be blocks
21:46:30  <frosch123> either one big, or multiple small ones
21:48:39  <planetmaker> I thought of providing the tile_pos in extra_callback_info2 (that's var 0x18, I think)
21:48:40  * frosch123 ponders adding a trigger byte to AirportFTAbuildup / AirportFTA structs
21:49:09  <frosch123> planetmaker: that's complicated wrt. rotations
21:49:22  <planetmaker> tile_pos relative to Northern tip... meh :P
21:50:15  <frosch123> but ok, a relative position in default rotation could also work
21:51:21  <frosch123> one byte for X, one byte for Y, one byte for the state change (takeoff start, takeoff end, land begin, touchdown, land end)
21:51:34  <frosch123> (... start loading, finish loading)
21:51:46  <frosch123> possibly all of the transitions states
21:51:51  <planetmaker> one *byte* for x and y?
21:52:05  <planetmaker> 7 bits each would definitely suffice
21:52:08  <frosch123> yes, airports are bigger than 16x16, aren't they?
21:52:22  <planetmaker> stations can't be bigger than 64^2
21:52:37  <planetmaker> and airports are not bigger than 16x16 (currently)
21:53:04  <planetmaker> biggest is 11x9
21:53:21  <frosch123> <- also uses YYXX
21:55:38  <planetmaker> I had been thinking of
21:56:59  <frosch123> well, there are either YX or YYXX formats
21:57:07  <frosch123> i would pick YYXX if there is enough space
21:58:10  <frosch123> might try something tomorrow
21:58:13  <frosch123> night for now
21:58:17  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
21:59:12  <Wolf01> 'night
21:59:18  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
21:59:56  <planetmaker> g'night
22:00:02  <planetmaker> Also from here :)
22:07:06  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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22:08:33  *** DDR [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:08:44  <bigyihsuan> Hello all
22:08:56  <bigyihsuan> I'm assuming that this is in the game chat, yes?
22:09:33  <bigyihsuan> wait, never mind
22:09:46  <bigyihsuan> looking for /r/openttd channet
22:09:50  <bigyihsuan> *channel
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22:59:03  *** Rejf [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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23:10:52  <a_sad_dude> is there a place i can go to to spam my new server with weird rules? :)
23:11:45  <Eddi|zuHause> you're probably not going to reach a significant audience in here. and especially not at this hour :p
23:12:20  <Eddi|zuHause> "significant" meaning 1000 people reading it, so 1 of them will actually try it
23:15:24  <a_sad_dude> right :) it's just too hard to find someone to play with these days
23:17:15  <a_sad_dude> anyway, if anyone finds "payment for 20 tiles maximum, no time bonus" an interesting rule to play with, come to "ECS local service" server
23:44:40  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has quit [Quit: Tired of mIRC? Try AdiIRC! []]

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