Log for #openttd on 14th July 2015:
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02:46:24  <Supercheese> evenin'
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11:54:47  <Garfield> hi
11:55:15  <Garfield> I would like to ask something about bananas newgrf.
11:56:46  *** Garfield is now known as Garfield222
11:57:42  <Garfield222> I would like to ask something about bananas newgrf.
11:58:54  <planetmaker> just ask
11:59:09  <planetmaker> without a question it's unlikely anyone can answer it :)
12:00:13  <Garfield222> Are there somewhere documentation how version number/naming are created for newgrf files.
12:00:52  <planetmaker> they're defined by the author
12:01:06  <planetmaker> and can basically be chosen arbitrarily
12:01:48  <Garfield222> I am asking because I have difficulty to understand what file are newer. Eg. NuTracks-1.1.2.tar.gz , NuTracks-r234.tar.gz
12:02:05  <planetmaker> additionally there's a numeric-only version, but that is mostly internal and not necessarily exposed to the user
12:03:10  <planetmaker> no-one can say from just looking at those two names. Put both into your NewGRF dir (unzip them there) and start OpenTTD
12:03:21  <planetmaker> With all settings set to default it won#t show the older one
12:03:27  <Garfield222> I don't understand what you mean? I i look at , there are not only numeric version listed. eg. City Objects B06
12:04:09  <planetmaker> yes, those are the versions displayed to users. They can be chosen arbitrarily
12:04:26  <planetmaker> basically that's the 'name' given to a version
12:04:38  <Garfield222> that is exacly what I do not want to do. I takes too much time to start openttd. I would like to desice which files is newer just by looking at file name.
12:04:39  <Garfield222> :-)
12:05:06  <planetmaker> there's no other way except browsing Nutrack's repository and looking there
12:05:43  <planetmaker> or at its build artefacts' dates:
12:05:56  <Garfield222> ok. I see. I could make my life a bit simple, if some policy would exist for naming versions. for example like here
12:06:19  <Garfield222> it is just a proposal.
12:06:31  <Garfield222> thanks for answering
12:07:39  <andythenorth> some of us use something like semver
12:07:43  <andythenorth> major.minor.trivial
12:07:49  <planetmaker> Garfield222, those two versions somewhat compare apples and oranges. 1.1.2 is a released version. While r234 is a development one :) (and r234 is newer than 1.1.2)
12:10:38  <Garfield222> that means to bee alsolutely sure that r234 is newer than 1.1.2, I have to use same algorith, that openttd uses. Compare some ID's inside newgrf file ?
12:11:29  <planetmaker> that ID is also set by the author ;)
12:12:33  <planetmaker> but yes. Or simply learn, that there's tags (release builds) which follow the major.minor.bugfix versioning scheme and development versions which often only use a sequential numbering
12:13:01  <planetmaker> hard to decide then how that matches with the releases, but well. Every author can decide themselves how they do versioning
12:13:20  <planetmaker> In the end it's not OpenTTD, but every NewGRF author individually
12:13:39  <planetmaker> But doing so, they follow OpenTTD's versioning scheme actually
12:14:07  <Garfield222> and how openttd sorts out old newgrf files?
12:14:12  <planetmaker> with sequential builds derived from trunk. And releases in the form of major.minor.bugfix
12:15:27  <planetmaker> reading the NewGRFs internal version, which is numerical only. Trusting that the author always increases it with each commit or release
12:17:07  <Garfield222> ok. thanks.
12:19:52  <planetmaker> Garfield222, anyway, if your intention is to 'cleanup the NewGRF dir', think again. You have those two versions for a reason. And an existing savegame very likely needs that *exact* version of the NewGRF
12:20:41  <planetmaker> Thus in case of doubt, you might end up with savegames where you have NewGRFs which are hard to find, if you didn't get their particular NewGRFs versions from the ingame content download
12:20:52  <Garfield222> the problem is that thera are more than two version :-)
12:21:14  <planetmaker> that's not a problem either...
12:21:29  <planetmaker> the same applies for any number really :)
12:22:40  <planetmaker> 1,2G	./content_download/newgrf
12:22:45  <planetmaker> 279M	./newgrf
12:22:47  <Garfield222> more difficult sample: FISH_2-2.0.0.tar.gz  FISH_2-2.0.2.tar.gz        FISH_2-alpha.tar.gz   FISH_2-squidalpha1.tar.gz  FISH_2-squidalpha3.tar.gz  FISH_2-squidalpha5.tar.gz  FISH_2-squidrc8.tar.gz
12:22:47  <Garfield222> FISH_2-2.0.1.tar.gz  FISH_2-FISH2Alpha3.tar.gz  FISH_2-alpha4.tar.gz  FISH_2-squidalpha2.tar.gz  FISH_2-squidalpha4.tar.gz  FISH_2-squidrc7.tar.gz     FISH_2-squidrc9.tar.gz
12:22:58  <planetmaker> is possibly quite a lot, but so what?
12:23:15  <planetmaker> use the file age
12:23:18  <Garfield222> I woule keep only 2.0.2
12:23:31  <Garfield222> but I am not sure, without starting openttd and testing :-)
12:23:53  <Garfield222> yes, probably age is one of the solutions.
12:24:53  <Garfield222> about version ID inside newgrf. Is action 14, "INFO" -> "VRSN" the right location to check version ?
12:28:47  <planetmaker> yes
12:29:43  <planetmaker> if it doesn't exist, it is interpreted as 0
12:30:22  <andythenorth> dunno what to do about alphas
12:30:25  <andythenorth> they’re not releases
12:30:32  <andythenorth> I can’t give them a released version number
12:30:53  <andythenorth> it dilutes the value of releases
12:31:28  <andythenorth> I would delete all alphas :P
12:31:38  <andythenorth> and get them from bananas again if needed :P
12:34:02  <Garfield222> that could be a problem. I never know maybe some old gamesave need those alphas. It happens sometimes that gamesave need not release version 1.2.3 , but a developement version r432.
12:34:59  <andythenorth> well
12:35:10  <andythenorth> in that case you have to keep them all :)
12:35:10  <Garfield222> Another question. are there maybe some python library to read GRF versions or compare newgrf files.
12:35:21  <Garfield222> :-)
12:35:37  <Garfield222> no space left on disk :-)
12:36:24  <Garfield222> I could dig inside action 14 and write some script, but I am a bit to laisy.
12:36:24  <andythenorth> you have YETI, or Pineapple?
12:36:43  <andythenorth> sort your newgrf folder by size :P
12:37:00  <andythenorth> 32bpp EZ grfs are acres bigger than most 8bpp grfs
12:37:51  <Garfield222> zBase-* takes some space
12:37:54  <andythenorth> yes
12:38:10  <andythenorth> by contrast, Squid Ate FISH is about 1.3MB
12:38:22  <andythenorth> how big is your disk? o_O
12:39:03  <Garfield222> I was joking about disk space. I just what to clean up a bit. But I am afraid to delete "possibly" necessary newgrf files
12:39:23  <andythenorth> occasionally I just delete all
12:39:25  <andythenorth> and get them again
12:39:36  <andythenorth> the ‘scanning newgrfs’ gets slow on game start
12:41:54  <Garfield222> but seriuosly. Are the maybe some library or command line tool get newgrf version (like openttd does) it order to be able to compare
12:43:56  <andythenorth> not that I know of
12:44:13  <andythenorth> there are various ways to decompile that you could exploit
12:44:17  <andythenorth> grfcodec with -d
12:44:23  <V453000> sup
12:44:29  <andythenorth> or grf2html, but that _might_ be dead
12:44:34  <andythenorth> lo V453000
12:45:17  <andythenorth> this fly is annoying
12:45:22  <andythenorth> in my room
12:45:28  <andythenorth> I wish it would fuck right off :)
12:45:36  <andythenorth> oops, swearing
12:47:36  <planetmaker> Garfield222, seriously, the only maintained library is OpenTTD itself
12:48:47  <andythenorth> planetmaker: have _you_ played any openttd recently? o_O
12:58:10  * andythenorth is curious who’s playing
12:58:13  <planetmaker> not very much really
13:00:41  <planetmaker> I blame my girl friend ;)
13:01:20  <andythenorth> openttd is not compatible with relationships :P
13:01:27  <andythenorth> it is mostly for single people :P
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14:36:57  <Terkhen> hello
14:39:55  <andythenorth> lo Terkhen :)
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14:59:37  <andythenorth> Terkhen: played any OpenTTD? o_O
15:00:54  <V453000> wtf is this poll again andy :D
15:01:23  <andythenorth> ‘survey says'
15:01:35  * andythenorth is curious how dead OpenTTD really is
15:01:53  <V453000> it isnt :)
15:02:10  <andythenorth> yeah I think it is
15:02:15  <andythenorth> actually finally dead
15:02:28  <andythenorth> as a programming project
15:05:11  <Terkhen> andythenorth: not really :P
15:05:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think your narrow field of view makes this observation universal
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15:06:25  <andythenorth> narrow field of view = forums, irc channel, version control
15:06:33  <andythenorth> what secret place do I miss? o_O
15:07:49  <V453000> openttdcoop, reddit, competitive servers
15:08:00  <andythenorth> nah, who’s writing game code there?
15:08:02  <andythenorth> really?
15:08:20  <andythenorth> someone has github or something with All The Ponies?
15:08:27  <V453000> people seem to play more and more from what I see
15:08:35  <andythenorth> play != programming
15:08:41  <V453000> more players should eventually turn into more developers I believe
15:08:45  <andythenorth> playing is fine, the game is fun
15:08:50  <andythenorth> but eh, it’s dead for development
15:08:53  <V453000> I actually played the game at some point too
15:08:54  <andythenorth> we should have a part
15:08:56  <andythenorth> party *
15:09:36  <andythenorth> frosch is the only person left committing
15:09:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just that you visit all these places doesn't mean you see everything that is going on
15:09:53  <andythenorth> tree, falling, forest
15:10:00  <andythenorth> if it doesn’t get committed, it’s irrelevant :P
15:10:13  <planetmaker> we should dev-ify afd88. Then we got two active committers again ;)
15:10:26  <andythenorth> translators are going strong
15:11:20  <andythenorth> it’s mature
15:11:21  <andythenorth> finished
15:11:22  <andythenorth> done
15:11:38  <andythenorth> put a banner on it, have a party :)
15:13:07  <planetmaker> banner... maybe. party... sure. mature... probably
15:13:20  <planetmaker> finished... no. done... no ;)
15:14:24  <andythenorth> what’s left beyond bug fixes?
15:14:28  <andythenorth> and maintaining the compile
15:14:29  <andythenorth> ?
15:14:56  <Alberth> scenario format
15:15:01  <Alberth> expanding GSes
15:15:17  <Alberth> probably something group-ish
15:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> roadtypes ;)
15:15:38  <Eddi|zuHause> airports ;)
15:15:45  <planetmaker> some MP league
15:15:46  <Alberth> RV balance :)
15:16:02  <Alberth> sane "new game" gui
15:16:02  <V453000> button for blitter swapping
15:16:27  <V453000> sensible tutorial, not just a GS
15:16:43  <Eddi|zuHause> infrastructure sharing (including solving the transfer issue)
15:17:01  <planetmaker> daylength
15:17:19  <Alberth> I think we pretty much reached 2.0 by then :p
15:17:45  <planetmaker> extended default game components (default newgrfs?)
15:17:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there is ever going to be a 2.0
15:17:59  <planetmaker> in 5 years ;)
15:18:05  <andythenorth> ‘what is v2’ is a thorny question :)
15:18:09  <Eddi|zuHause> then there's 1.10 :p
15:18:09  <V453000> on a serious note, what do you guys think about some blitter button in the game? I feel it is kind of important
15:18:27  <andythenorth> I work on about 6 different projects where ‘v2?’ is a question :P
15:18:30  <planetmaker> V453000, yes, handy. wanted. and a detail ;)
15:18:37  <V453000> not a detail at all
15:18:41  <V453000> it is a huge deal for players
15:18:46  <V453000> nobody wants to mess with cfg all the time
15:18:54  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: can't be more than 10 LOC
15:18:54  <V453000> and new players demand 32bpp a lot
15:18:56  <Alberth> it is?
15:19:12  <Alberth> I mean you set it once, and you're done, right?
15:19:19  <V453000> most people have no idea how 32bpp / 8bpp is handled
15:19:25  <V453000> Alberth: no, often you want to swap
15:19:30  <planetmaker> really?
15:19:33  <andythenorth> why is it an interesting choice?
15:19:36  <Eddi|zuHause> 32bpp is enabled automatically when you load a 32bpp grf
15:19:41  <Alberth> I never ever swap
15:19:55  <andythenorth> I had picked up some FUD that 8bpp blitter was dead
15:20:03  <andythenorth> all my blitters are slightly dead tbh :
15:20:05  <andythenorth> :P
15:20:08  <V453000> sure but when 32bpp demolishes your cpu, or you want them to be more coherent, 8bpp is win
15:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you have a perception bias against death, apparently
15:20:33  <andythenorth> for some OS / hardware combos, isn’t 32bpp more performant?
15:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only for weird ones
15:20:57  <V453000> idk try loading yeti with a lot of animations :)
15:20:58  <planetmaker> like osx :P
15:21:01  <andythenorth> like OS X
15:21:06  <Eddi|zuHause> like OS X
15:21:08  <planetmaker> actually both, windows and osx have 32bpp blitter as default
15:21:32  <planetmaker> it's hardware which plays the bad tricks
15:21:34  <andythenorth> full animation is borked with both 8bpp and 32bpp
15:21:37  <andythenorth> for me
15:21:44  <andythenorth> black screen regions
15:21:46  <Alberth> the real step is going to switch to using a gpu, but that's very complicated afaik
15:22:05  <planetmaker> yeah
15:22:10  <V453000> the choice we get with various blitters is great and quite powerful tool, I know many users on our welcome server even (newer players) swap to 8bpp often due to performance, or just to make 32bpp newgrfs look more like their 8bpp base set, etc
15:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> use shaders for palette animation and stuff
15:22:12  <planetmaker> like an opengl blitter or stuff
15:22:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't have a clue how to even start with that
15:22:43  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, start with deprecating palette animation
15:22:50  <V453000> XD
15:23:05  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: why?
15:23:47  <planetmaker> in order to outsource to GPU :P Palette and 32bpp doesn't work too well anyway
15:24:15  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if you want the easy way out, pre-process all sprites with all the palette states, and then flip the cached sprites all the time
15:24:30  <planetmaker> something like that, for instance, yes
15:24:48  <planetmaker> memory is cheaper than cpu power :)
15:25:24  <andythenorth> :)
15:25:32  * andythenorth misses the waves
15:25:36  <andythenorth> the waves the waves the waves
15:25:48  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it might cause combinatory explosion if the sprite uses multiple cycles with non-matching cycle lengths
15:26:15  * andythenorth wonders if we should play the game a bit :P
15:26:42  <Eddi|zuHause> lcm(cycle1,cycle2)
15:27:27  <Eddi|zuHause> also, you have to check which magic colour cycles are actually used
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15:29:07  <andythenorth> the last game I played, the only thing I would have changed is Busy Bee
15:29:16  <andythenorth> and that is within even my capabilities :P
15:30:07  <andythenorth> there are tons of minor annoyances, but very few that are worth adding Ever More Code for
15:31:39  <Eddi|zuHause> 24h clock, timetable visualisation, ...
15:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> (24h clock has nothing to do with daylength, btw.)
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15:46:05  <openbu> I can't
15:48:27  <openbu> Why not add the army to zbase ,Such as tank.
15:48:46  <andythenorth> moar tanks
15:48:59  * andythenorth considers a ‘trench’ industry
15:49:06  <andythenorth> accepts: conscripts
15:49:11  <andythenorth> produces: corpses
15:50:31  <planetmaker> :P
15:50:37  <andythenorth> pretty horrible :P
15:50:47  * andythenorth was reading the other day about WW1 railroad logistics
15:50:54  <planetmaker> totally politically correct and family friendly
15:50:57  <andythenorth> it’s obvious that moving troops and amunition was required
15:51:10  <andythenorth> but less commonly mentioned was the traffic the other way, in stacked corpses
15:51:17  <andythenorth> then I stopped reading
15:51:30  <andythenorth> because I’m 37, and I’ve been reading about horrible things for at least 20 years
15:51:33  <andythenorth> and I’ve had enough of it
15:51:37  <planetmaker> openbu, make a NewGRF, if you really need that.
15:51:59  <Alberth> or find a proper war game
15:53:49  <planetmaker> hm... a friend of mine is just reading through "Kaigun: Strategy, Tactics and Technology in the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1887-1941" Sounded to me similarily appealing
15:54:29  <andythenorth> there’s only so much mass slaughter that you need to understand
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15:59:37  <openbu> ok,the newgrf of red alert 2 is coming ,
16:00:05  <Alberth> you know you cannot distribute copyrighted graphics, right?
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16:00:56  <openbu>
16:01:21  <Alberth> fair enough
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16:02:10  <andythenorth> minor annoyances
16:02:26  <Alberth> people think war is fun?
16:02:32  <andythenorth> it’s glamorous
16:02:49  <andythenorth> actually I’ve read some accounts of people who’ve been in wars, some people find it incredibly exciting
16:03:17  <Alberth> I can imagine, but it seems kind of deadly to me
16:03:18  <andythenorth> not everyone, but some people definitely, including people who might consider themselves cowards in ordinary life
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16:04:03  <andythenorth> if you’re a nervous person, a *real* risk of death might be more mentally manageable than other less likely risks
16:04:43  <andythenorth> e.g. I used to find rock climbing reset my sense of risk
16:04:55  <andythenorth> oops, not talking about trains :(
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16:05:23  <Alberth> you didn't go to the rock by train? :)
16:05:27  <Alberth> hoi f
16:06:19  <andythenorth> nah :P
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16:11:00  <planetmaker> o/
16:14:47  <frosch123> hola
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16:16:54  <Dax> hello, could anyone help me ? I wanted to ask if there is a way to change the game's default town names
16:17:33  <Dax> i am referring to the town names that are listed under the game options such as france, italy, etc
16:18:43  <planetmaker> Dax, yes, add a townname newgrf in the newgrf settings. Then its townnames shop up as an additional option in the townname dialogue
16:19:00  <planetmaker> s/shop/show/g
16:19:03  <Dax> hey thanks, indeed I already seen that there was that options
16:19:07  <Dax> option*
16:19:19  <Dax> I was just wondering if I could instead edit those who are already in the game
16:19:33  <planetmaker> yes. But not without re-compiling the game
16:19:36  <Dax> oh okay
16:19:42  <Dax> then that's not an option I guess...
16:19:52  <Dax> it's just that at first glance they look all made up names :(
16:19:58  <planetmaker> they probably are
16:20:03  <Dax> and there is no newgrf for italian town names that I've found
16:20:14  <Dax> i guess I will create it
16:20:15  <planetmaker> but thus: use a townname newgrf. If there's none, make one. It's very easy
16:20:20  <Dax> understood
16:20:24  <Dax> is there a tutorial anywhere?
16:20:31  <Dax> hope it's just notepad stuff :p
16:20:49  <Alberth> you don't need one, it's trivial once you look at the source of an existing one
16:20:57  <planetmaker> yeah, that sufficies mostly, but not entirely. has loads of examples
16:21:03  <Dax> oh I see
16:21:08  <Dax> I downloaded a couple
16:21:12  <Dax> I can just open them with notepad right?
16:21:17  <Dax> to check how they're made
16:22:07  <planetmaker> but you'll need to compile it into a NewGRF:
16:22:24  <planetmaker> you cannot exactly open an existing NewGRF; they're binary data
16:22:37  <Dax> oh ok
16:22:40  <Dax> yeah I just noticed
16:22:48  <Dax> that they are not formatted "notepad like"
16:22:50  <Dax> thanks :)
16:23:00  <planetmaker> yes, but notepad and that compiler suffice :)
16:23:05  <Dax> if possible, I would happily send the file to you later if you want to add it
16:23:10  <Dax> since it seems that nobody did italian towns...
16:23:49  <planetmaker> register with openttd services, upload your result to the content manager. No intervention by anyone else needed. You can do it all :)
16:23:52  <Alberth> wordpad is better at handling unix files, just be sure to save in plain text
16:23:59  <Dax> I see
16:24:08  <Dax> uh-oh I just opened your getting started link and welp
16:24:14  <Dax> I know nothing of phyton or programming
16:24:22  <Dax> let's see if I can understand something lol
16:24:44  <Alberth> you mostly need the install instructions
16:25:26  <Dax> unfortunately I don't understand...
16:25:35  <Dax> so i opened this link
16:25:37  <Dax>
16:25:45  <Dax> I guess I have to get the compiler from here?
16:26:20  <Dax> ok i guess I have to take
16:26:25  <planetmaker> yes. Download the one which suits your OS (the file names should give it away)
16:27:13  <planetmaker> brb... food
16:27:30  <Alberth> planetmaker:    CB_RESULT_IND_PROD_DECREMENT_BY_1 | 1 << 8      works w.r.t. operator priorities?
16:28:05  <Dax> urgh I guess it's going to be too complicated for me :/
16:28:18  <Dax> i downloaded that by the only .exe files in there open and closes itself
16:28:27  <Dax> also I don't know a thing about phyton commands :(
16:29:26  <Alberth> it's not a graphical program
16:29:40  <Dax> yeah no GUI I noticed
16:29:41  <Alberth> open a DOS shell (command program)
16:30:07  <Dax> ok yes
16:30:10  <Dax> I opened it now
16:30:15  <Dax> but I'm still a little lost at everything
16:30:24  <Dax> I mean, where am I supposed to write the town names now? :(
16:30:50  <Dax> I really thought this thing was much easier at the beginning XD
16:30:52  <Alberth> in a .nml file, have seen an example of those?
16:31:02  <Alberth> +you
16:31:22  <Dax> no, my bad, I had opened only some .grf files
16:31:29  <Dax> where can I find an nml one?
16:32:33  <Dax> oh ok i found this
16:32:36  <Dax> should help
16:33:15  <Dax> hmm I'm still very much confused
16:33:23  <Dax> now I know what's the formatting like
16:33:29  <Dax> but I don't understand where I can write these commands...
16:33:36  <Alberth>
16:33:55  <Dax> oh great, thank you
16:34:04  <Dax> I can download this and edit it, right? :p
16:34:26  <Alberth> yeah
16:34:53  <Alberth> text("Horsthoek", 1),     <-- this is a town name, and a chance of appearance (bigger number = more likely)
16:35:22  <Dax> yeah I am checking with the previous NML:Town_names thing thanks :)
16:35:28  <Dax> so I'm missing just a piece of the puzzle now
16:35:32  <Dax> once my file is ready
16:35:46  <Dax> I guess I should use nmlc.exe to somehow convert the nml file into grf
16:35:50  <Dax> is that right?
16:35:57  <Dax> where can I find the proper dos commands to do so?
16:37:12  <Dax> also, sorry, there's this part which I'm not sure what it does\means
16:37:12  <Dax> grf {
16:37:12  <Dax>     grfid: "DTN2";
16:37:12  <Dax>     name : string(STR_GRF_NAME);
16:37:12  <Dax>     desc : string(STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION);
16:37:13  <Dax> 	url : string(STR_GRF_URL);
16:37:13  <Dax>     version : 2;
16:37:15  <Dax> 	min_compatible_version : 2;
16:37:15  <Dax> }
16:37:23  <Alberth>    the 'grf' part needs to be changed too, in particular the 'grfid' line
16:37:27  <Dax> should I just leave it as it is?
16:37:45  <Dax> oh
16:37:52  <Alberth> it's the identification of the grf, grfid should be unique
16:38:01  <Dax> all right
16:38:36  <Dax> not sure about these 'versions'
16:38:38  <Alberth> the other strings are in
16:39:05  <openbu> visual nml 4.1.the NewGRF IDE.
16:39:09  <Alberth> just increment both whenever you make a new grf
16:39:20  <Alberth> (with changed set of names)
16:39:36  <Dax> ok
16:39:48  <Dax> I opened your last link but I'm slightly confused
16:39:56  <Dax> for example I have
16:39:57  <Dax> name : string(STR_GRF_NAME);
16:40:00  <Dax> and there it's
16:40:04  <Dax> STR_GRF_NAME                    :Dutch Town Names
16:40:09  <Alberth> yes
16:40:12  <Dax> which is a different formatting..
16:40:23  <Alberth> STR_GRF_NAME is the name of a string (a piece of text)
16:40:45  <Alberth> "Dutch Town Names" (without : ) is the content of the string in English
16:40:54  <Dax> no ok
16:40:59  <Alberth>
16:41:02  <Dax> that's clear, it's just the formatting that's different
16:41:06  <Alberth> you can have other languages too
16:41:26  <Alberth> yeah, it's a different file format with different history :)
16:41:32  <Dax> sigh
16:41:37  <Dax> so uhm
16:41:56  <Dax> grf {
16:41:56  <Dax>     grfid: "ITLN";
16:41:56  <Dax>     name : Italian Town Names(STR_GRF_NAME);
16:41:56  <Dax>     desc : Italian Town Names(STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION);
16:42:00  <Dax> this wouldn't work?
16:42:08  <Dax> or I shouldn't have changed "string" into the actual name? :x
16:42:52  <Alberth> no, it should stay string(STR_....);   :)
16:43:10  <Dax> ok so let's try this
16:43:22  <Alberth> you should make a folder with the townname.nml file, and a "lang" folder
16:43:45  <Alberth> and inside the "lang" folder an english.lng file like above
16:44:04  <Dax> oh, really? even if then it's just a single grf file?
16:44:11  <Dax> it's starting to get too complicated I fear :(
16:44:28  <Alberth> nml packs it all into a single grf, no worries :)
16:44:57  <Dax> ok let's try to not give up immediately then I guess
16:44:58  <Alberth> townnames are a bit very tiny, so nml is a bit overkill for it
16:45:03  <Dax> so uhm
16:45:16  <Dax> what's confusing me a lot
16:45:22  <Dax> is that that english.lng file
16:45:25  <planetmaker> you need the nml file which defines the grf and what it does. And a language file which defines the strings the grf uses
16:45:36  <Dax> contains
16:45:37  <Dax> ##grflangid 00
16:45:37  <Dax> STR_GRF_NAME                    :Dutch Town Names
16:45:37  <Dax> STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION             :Dutch Town Names (Hyronymus, 2012)
16:45:37  <Dax> STR_GRF_URL						:
16:45:40  <Dax> however
16:45:47  <Dax> this stuff is Also in the Nlm file that I have
16:45:51  <Dax> is this normal?
16:45:56  <Dax> I don't get it :(
16:46:00  <planetmaker> STR_GRF_NAME is a name for a string. And that name can be used in the nml file
16:46:08  <Dax> like
16:46:09  <Dax>  grfid: "ITLN";
16:46:09  <Dax>     name : string(STR_Italian_Town_Names);
16:46:09  <Dax> ?
16:46:26  <Alberth> you should not change the "string" lines
16:46:26  <planetmaker> like name: string(STR_GRF_NAME)
16:46:34  <Dax> oh
16:46:41  <Dax> so I should've left it as it was okay
16:46:48  <Alberth> nml takes the text from the .lng files, and fills it in for you
16:46:53  <Dax> oh ok ok
16:46:56  <Dax> I understand now
16:47:24  <Dax> so in the nlm file i should just leave
16:47:26  <Dax> grf {
16:47:26  <Dax>     grfid: "ITLN";
16:47:26  <Dax>     name : string(STR_GRF_NAME);
16:47:26  <Dax>     desc : string(STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION);
16:47:26  <Dax> 	url : string(STR_GRF_URL);
16:47:27  <Dax>     version : 1;
16:47:27  <Dax> 	min_compatible_version : 1;
16:47:33  <Dax> only the grfid nees to be set, I guess
16:47:47  <Dax> and then I edit that english.lng file
16:47:53  <Alberth> and if you make an italian.lng, that gets added too , and you can select italian language in openttd, and the newgrf speaks italian too
16:47:56  <planetmaker> yes
16:48:13  <Dax> yeah that's actually important
16:48:18  <Dax> since I'm using the game in italian
16:48:34  <planetmaker> for townname NewGRFs there's little point in adding translations, though
16:48:40  <planetmaker> except maybe for the description
16:48:43  <Dax> oh, okay
16:48:51  <Dax> let's just leave the description in english honestly
16:48:53  <planetmaker> a townname is a townname is a townname, no?
16:48:56  <Dax> yeah
16:49:21  <Eddi|zuHause> translateable town names could be fun :p
16:49:48  <Dax> ok so I have the nlm file and I create a lang folder, was there anything else?
16:49:52  <Dax> other folders or files
16:50:00  <planetmaker> yeah... Aix-aux-chapelle. or however it's called in French. No resemblance to Aachen ;)
16:50:52  <Alberth> copy the engish.lng into the lang folder
16:51:03  <Dax> I did
16:51:05  <Dax> editing it right now
16:51:09  <Dax> STR_GAME_OPTIONS_TOWN_NAME_DUTCH :Dutch -> what about this line ?
16:51:20  <Alberth> if you want to make an italian version, copy english.lng to italian.lng
16:51:30  <Alberth> just change the text behind the :
16:51:40  <Dax> no it's okay really
16:51:43  <planetmaker> and the grflangid in the header
16:51:54  <Dax> ##grflangid 00  should be changed into what?
16:52:06  <Alberth> ##grflangid 27   for italian.lng
16:52:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: that line is what is written in the "town name" selection drop down in the main menu
16:52:11  <planetmaker> for english.lng: not at all.
16:52:26  <Dax> no okay guys
16:52:31  <Dax> i don't care about an italian.lng file really
16:52:36  <Dax> let's just keep it simple please
16:52:38  <Alberth> ok
16:52:45  <Dax> so what's the ID? :(
16:52:53  <Alberth> what it is already
16:53:07  <Dax> 00? all right
16:53:11  <Alberth> it's the number identifying which language it is, and 00 is UK english
16:53:16  <Dax> oh gotcha
16:53:25  <Dax> in the last string hough you said to change just after the :
16:53:29  <Dax> however this would lead to
16:53:45  <Dax> I don't understand what this line is doing
16:53:56  <Dax> should I just replace dutch with italian ?
16:54:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: the part on the right of the ":" is what is displayed in the game, the part on the left is what is used in the NML file to reference the string
16:54:58  <Alberth> you can but the STR names in the .nml and the .lng must be identical
16:55:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: the part on the left is only important for you as the developer, it can be named anything you feel comfortable with
16:55:16  <Dax> hm
16:55:58  <Dax> okay i found it
16:56:02  <Dax>   styles: string(STR_GAME_OPTIONS_TOWN_NAME_DUTCH);
16:56:07  <Dax> this is in the nlm
16:56:16  <Dax> i'll just change dutch to italian there, but i get what you're saying
16:56:24  <planetmaker> that's probably a part you don't want to worry about right now
16:56:38  <Dax> no it's just to make sure it matches
16:56:42  <Alberth> then also change it in the .lng file, the STR names must stay the same
16:56:42  <planetmaker> seems that the dutch grf offers two options, dutch writing and english writing.
16:56:59  <planetmaker> or is it really just the name? /me checks
16:57:14  <Dax> yes Alberth
16:57:44  <Dax> back to the nlm file, now it's like this
16:57:47  <Dax> grf {
16:57:47  <Dax>     grfid: "ITLN";
16:57:47  <Dax>     name : string(STR_GRF_NAME);
16:57:47  <Dax>     desc : string(STR_GRF_DESCRIPTION);
16:57:47  <Dax> 	url : string(STR_GRF_URL);
16:57:49  <Dax>     version : 1;
16:57:49  <Dax> 	min_compatible_version : 1;
16:57:51  <Dax> }
16:57:51  <Dax> town_names(A) {
16:57:53  <Dax>   styles: string(STR_GAME_OPTIONS_TOWN_NAME_ITA);
16:57:53  <Dax>     {
16:58:13  <Dax> not sure what's "A" after town_names or if it matters and it's everything all right :p
16:58:21  <planetmaker> ah, it's a style... so yes, you want to change it indee
16:58:23  <planetmaker> indeed
16:59:21  <Alberth> compiling is     nmlc --grf=ita_townnames.grf  ita_townnames.nml
16:59:21  <Dax> so everything is correct so far right?
16:59:25  <Dax> oh okay
16:59:27  <Dax> thanks :D
16:59:41  <Dax> just another little question
16:59:44  <Alberth> where "ita_townnames" is probably something else :)
16:59:51  <Dax> the towns here are named by alphabet
16:59:57  <Dax> but I don't need to care about that I hope
17:00:01  <Dax> I mean, in this nlm file
17:00:13  *** Pensacola [] has joined #openttd
17:00:13  <Dax> they're like from A to Z
17:00:15  <Alberth> order is not important
17:00:17  <Dax> ok
17:00:18  <Dax> also
17:00:21  <Dax> they are all like
17:00:23  <Dax> 	text("Aan Reijans", 1),
17:00:25  <Dax> and then
17:00:28  <Dax> the very last one
17:00:32  <Dax> 	text("Zwolle", 32),
17:00:34  <Dax> 32 ?
17:00:47  <Alberth> it's the chance of appearance
17:00:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: that makes "Zwolle" 32 times more likely to appear than "Aaan Reijans"
17:01:00  <Alberth> Zwolle has 32 times more chance of being chosen
17:01:02  <Dax> oh I see
17:01:08  <Dax> that's a really cool feature
17:01:24  <Dax> all right so time to write
17:01:25  <Eddi|zuHause> most likely this is done for lager towns that are more recognizable
17:01:34  <Dax> oh right, last thing
17:01:36  <Dax> so
17:01:41  <Dax>  town_names(A) {
17:01:43  <Dax> that (A)
17:01:48  <Dax> i don't need to care right?
17:02:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: that A will probably be referenced somewhere further down
17:02:39  <Dax> doesn't seem so...
17:02:48  <Dax> there's literally only the town names
17:02:50  <Dax> and then it ends
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17:03:15  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
17:03:34  <Alberth> it  looks unused
17:03:41  <Alberth> seems safe to just keep it
17:03:48  <Dax> ok thanks
17:03:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the specs will probably tell what it is supposed to mean
17:04:43  <Alberth> but you can use it to concatenate parts
17:04:55  <Alberth>
17:05:12  <andythenorth> so how about v2? :P
17:05:27  <andythenorth> cos that never kills a software project :D
17:06:04  <Dax> oh i see
17:06:10  <Dax> so it's just to name "blocks"
17:06:14  <Dax> like regions or whatever
17:06:26  <Dax> i'll just don't care anyway
17:06:59  <Alberth> it's useful if you have some common suffixes or prefixes, and you want {random prefix}{random middle}{random suffix} names
17:07:13  <Alberth> like the default townnames do
17:07:18  <Dax> only thing that concerns me a little
17:07:21  <Dax> is that it says
17:07:22  <Dax> town_names[(<name>)]
17:07:28  <Dax> however, it's not formatted like that in my file
17:07:35  <Dax> there are no [ ]
17:07:53  <Alberth> the [] means "the text inside is optional"
17:08:01  <Alberth> ie it's meta syntax
17:08:04  <Dax> oh
17:08:08  <Dax> all right
17:09:20  *** openbu [~ade@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:09:53  <Dax> is any number fine, for the "chances to appear" numbers?
17:10:01  <Dax> i mean, they're not multiple of 2 or anything like that?
17:10:06  *** tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:10:16  <Alberth> mostly any number is fine
17:10:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: i think in each block the numbers should add up to 256
17:10:41  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: false
17:10:49  <planetmaker> numbers in a block must add up to a number < 256
17:11:07  <Dax> oh okay, that's important then
17:11:09  <Alberth> it does???
17:11:59  <Alberth> numbers are relative       A:1    B:2       B has twice as large chance
17:12:15  <Alberth> A:2   B:4   B also has twice as large chance
17:13:03  <planetmaker> hm... not sure. But one block may not have more than 255 entries :)
17:13:17  <Alberth> planetmaker: it does??
17:13:20  <planetmaker> you need more blocks, if you want to define more town names. Yes
17:13:33  <Alberth> nml is pretty smart in splitting blocks you know :p
17:13:43  <planetmaker> says so :)
17:13:57  <planetmaker> but I think you last re-vamped that part... so is it a documentation rot?
17:13:58  <Alberth> yeah, but nml isn't grfcodec :p
17:14:06  <planetmaker> that's nml docs :P
17:14:24  <Eddi|zuHause> "If a part contains even more entries, NML tries to make it fit by creating sub-blocks. "
17:14:34  <Eddi|zuHause> so i suppose that overrides the 256 limit
17:14:54  <planetmaker> hm... so ... documentation rot
17:15:07  <Dax> I have deleted the old file but I would have been surprised if it was less than 256 names tho
17:15:22  <Dax>
17:15:29  <Alberth> in my mind, you can pretty much do anything within reason
17:15:29  <Dax> and since every one of them is '1'
17:15:48  <Dax> okay in fact it's 4000+
17:15:55  <Dax> dunno
17:15:56  <Alberth> but it's a long time ago that I wrote that code :)
17:16:08  <Dax> i will still keep most towns at 1 and whatever
17:16:09  <planetmaker> well... that block has 4k+ entries
17:16:12  <Dax> yeah
17:16:13  <planetmaker> so... will be safe :)
17:16:23  *** DDR_ [] has joined #openttd
17:16:44  <Alberth> until you hit the random number size limit of 32 bit :p
17:17:26  <planetmaker> :)
17:24:50  <Dax> all right i'm done, i will add more of them maybe (did around 200) but for now i'll test
17:24:54  <Dax> i'll try to compile now
17:26:26  <Eddi|zuHause> a huge map with lots of towns may easily reach 3000 towns that need a unique name :p
17:26:57  <Dax> I guess you're right..
17:27:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you should test compile, though
17:27:11  <Dax> I won't upload the file for now, just doing a test on local
17:27:12  <Dax> yeah
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17:28:08  <Dax> done
17:28:09  <Dax> hmm
17:28:21  <Dax> however I have only a grf file
17:28:26  <Dax> do I need to create a .tar ?
17:28:29  <planetmaker> no
17:28:29  <Eddi|zuHause> no
17:28:38  <Dax> so i just put that in the documents
17:28:41  <Dax> near the other ones...
17:29:01  *** Pensacola [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:29:08  <Eddi|zuHause> .tar is just an archive, openttd treats that like a directory, and looks for the .grf file inside
17:29:09  <planetmaker> Documents/OpenTTD/newgrf
17:29:09  <Dax> hmm no there's a newgrf folder tho
17:29:11  <Dax> yeah
17:29:19  <Dax> ok
17:29:27  <planetmaker> that's for things manually downloaded or created yourself
17:29:48  <planetmaker> content_download is better not touched. That's for OpenTTD's usage when using ingame content download
17:30:00  <Dax> all right, appearing in the game
17:30:04  <Dax> let's make a test map
17:30:08  <Dax> yeah you're right
17:30:19  <Dax> so uhm
17:30:35  <Dax> what happens if it finishes the names? does it go back to what's set in the game options, or just repeats those in the grf?
17:30:57  <planetmaker> neither. you don't get more towns
17:31:09  <Dax> lmao
17:31:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: it'll generate 300 towns, then try 1700 more which it can't find new names for, which takes ages and doesn't put the towns down
17:32:00  <Dax> XD
17:32:08  <Dax> aand i failed
17:32:14  <Dax> not sure why but it's not working...
17:32:17  <Dax> I added it
17:32:23  <Dax> but it made a map with the old names :(
17:32:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: you need to select the town name in the settings
17:32:45  <Dax> let's double check then
17:32:49  <Eddi|zuHause> just adding the grf is not enough
17:32:52  <Dax> oh
17:33:16  <Dax> hmmm
17:33:18  <Dax> i'm confused
17:33:25  <Dax> you're talking about the game options window?
17:33:56  <planetmaker> yup
17:34:15  <Dax> hmm
17:34:19  <Dax> but
17:34:23  <Dax> it's not appearing there
17:34:26  <Alberth>
17:34:32  <Dax> yeah i'm there
17:34:34  <Dax> but it's not in the list
17:34:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: it should be at the very bottom of the list
17:34:41  <Dax> could it be because i did not create a italian.lang ?
17:34:45  <Dax> let's check again
17:34:56  <Dax> nope, it's not there :(
17:35:11  <Eddi|zuHause> then something failed
17:35:24  <Dax> yeah but there's something that's puzzling me
17:35:34  <Dax> under city names:
17:35:46  <Dax> i see austrian, french etc
17:35:57  <Dax> but... what word would appear for my gfx file?
17:36:08  <Dax> because i don't remember setting any kind of word to appear in this menu
17:36:13  <Dax> so i'm not sure where it should take it from
17:36:33  <Eddi|zuHause>   styles: string(STR_GAME_OPTIONS_TOWN_NAME_ITA); <-- this one
17:37:01  <Dax> oh
17:37:08  <Dax> then I suspect there might be a conflict
17:37:18  <Dax> because I had named it Italian just like the default one
17:37:20  <Dax> or maybe not
17:37:29  <Dax> well let's try to change it
17:37:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that would only mean that there will be two "Italian"s
17:37:47  <Dax> i guess so
17:37:52  <Dax> then I don't know what's wrong
17:38:02  <Dax> I guess i will take out that (A) thing maybe just to be sure ?
17:38:20  <Dax> also when i compiled i never told him to search for the lang folder
17:38:26  <Dax> did it really do it by himself?
17:39:15  <planetmaker> yes
17:39:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it has a default path for that
17:39:31  <Dax> hmm
17:39:56  <Dax> well I don't know what's wrong here :/
17:40:06  <Dax> let's take out that A
17:40:18  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably not that :p
17:40:35  <Dax> i'd guess so
17:40:47  <Eddi|zuHause> can you pastebin your file?
17:48:35  <andythenorth> annoyances noticed in my last game: consist management (change the formation of all trains in a group at once); pointless difference between drive-in/drive-thru stops (drive-in are always worse); RV overtaking; can’t build docks on rivers easily; locks are 3 tiles to ‘add difficulty’ but it’s boring; can’t build station tiles on corner slopes (can be mitigated by copying station set tiles to object set); trains
17:48:35  <andythenorth> significantly better (more ‘done’) than all other transport types
17:48:56  <andythenorth> but eh, this is not new
17:49:09  <andythenorth> and they’re all minor
17:50:03  <andythenorth> the performance issues are quite bad too, and they were even worse in a Windows VM :P
17:50:21  <andythenorth> but andythenorth uses an esoteric hardware & OS
17:52:07  <Dax> yeah i will patebin it
17:52:08  <andythenorth> also road-building is tedious, don’t know why, but auto-road is much worse than auto-rail
17:52:10  <Dax> *pastebin
17:52:56  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a guy here that wanted to make tile highlighting for autoroad. what became out of that?
17:54:07  <Dax> does the grfid need to be referenced somewhere?
17:54:10  <Dax> don't think so tho
17:54:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Dax: no, it should just be different from everybody else's IDs
17:54:44  <Dax> very likely that it is
17:55:14  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: <- there were already 3 guys in 2010
17:55:30  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, but i meant last week or so :p
17:55:33  <Dax>
17:55:52  <Dax> at the end, there is also the content of the lang file
17:55:53  <Alberth> july 5
17:56:16  <Dax> july 5?
17:57:02  <Alberth> the autoroad guy Eddi talked about :)
17:57:18  <Dax> ops sorry
17:57:22  <Dax> also i made a mistake in the pastebin
17:57:35  <Dax> it ends with
17:57:35  <Dax>     }
17:57:35  <Dax> }
17:57:37  <Dax> obviously
17:57:40  <Dax> :p
17:57:48  <Dax> but it was only a copy paste mistake
17:57:57  <Alberth>  Eddi|zuHause
17:57:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you put the lang file not at the end but inbetween
17:58:14  <Dax> what?
17:58:19  <Dax> ah yeah
17:58:19  <Dax> haha
17:58:23  <Dax> sorry
17:58:39  <Dax> what a mess
17:58:47  <Dax> i'll redo it xD
17:59:52  <Dax>
18:00:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: so patch is here: anyone care to review? :p
18:00:53  <Dax> i noticed that in the compiler it says
18:01:08  <Dax> nmlc info: town names: 1/128
18:01:10  <Dax> is this normal?
18:01:21  <frosch123> yes, you only defined "italian" townnames
18:01:25  <frosch123> so only 1 set
18:01:42  <Dax> hm
18:01:46  <Dax> then what's wrong ;_; sigh
18:01:50  <frosch123> if you would define "northern italian", "southern italian", "ancient roman", you would have 3
18:02:07  <frosch123> Dax: nothing, it's the amount of sets you can choose in the game options
18:02:22  <Dax> no sorry, i mean
18:02:28  <Dax> then why it's not working in the game to me :/
18:02:30  <Dax> or rather
18:02:35  <Dax> it's not appearing in my game options
18:03:08  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it did not activate properly?
18:03:23  <Dax> i tried activating it and closing and reopening...
18:03:33  <Dax> here's the file if anyone wants to waste 5 minutes
18:04:24  <Dax> oh crap
18:04:26  <Dax> never mind.
18:04:35  <Dax> I'm an idiot
18:04:47  <Dax> i had just added it
18:04:55  <Dax> but did not press "apply"
18:04:58  <Dax> sigh
18:05:04  <Dax> now it's there
18:05:06  <Dax> sorry :/
18:05:15  <Dax> time to test
18:05:20  <Dax> then i'll add cities an upload it...
18:05:41  <Alberth> \o/
18:05:56  <Dax> yup it's working ^_^
18:06:04  <Dax> thank you so much!
18:11:22  <planetmaker> :)
18:13:22  * andythenorth wonders how to get a patch from github
18:13:29  <andythenorth> must be a ‘raw’ diff somewhere
18:13:47  <frosch123> you need to add ".diff" or ".patch" to the url
18:13:52  <frosch123> one of those
18:14:36  <andythenorth> yay
18:14:40  <andythenorth> hidden nav :)
18:14:51  <andythenorth>
18:15:45  <andythenorth> Linter failure on sprite 4252.
18:16:13  * andythenorth pokes
18:16:49  <andythenorth> grfcodec r986
18:17:05  <andythenorth> looks new enough
18:17:34  <frosch123> make a patch to remove nforenum from ottd :)
18:18:05  <andythenorth> :P
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18:26:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: basically anything that adds to openttd.grf also needs a patch to nforenum
18:27:22  <andythenorth> ah
18:27:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the real problem is that nforenum treats "i don't know about this bit" as "THIS IS CRITICAL ERROR! HALT!"
18:28:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and the makefile exaggerates this even further
18:29:11  <Eddi|zuHause> you could just change the makefile to ignore renum errors, but that may be not desireable also, depending on the seriousness of the error
18:29:19  <frosch123> the real problem is that all that nforenum does on openttd.grf is setting the number of sprites at the beginning
18:29:47  <andythenorth> impedance mismatch :)
18:30:09  <andythenorth> this is why there are only about 7 people in the world who can add actual features to openttd :)
18:30:40  <andythenorth> I have abused the term badly :P
18:35:15  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, things like this stopped me from pursuing a project multiple times already
18:35:56  <andythenorth> if we removed them, you’d have to find other reasons :)
18:36:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'm a hopeless case anyway :p
18:36:54  <Eddi|zuHause> try helping the me from 3 years ago :p
18:37:02  <andythenorth> ha :)
18:39:46  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you don’t enjoy yak-shaving? o_O
18:40:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no. i write code generators for that :p
18:41:03  <andythenorth> I think that is yak-shaving :P
18:41:54  <andythenorth> so how about ignore all the silly little annoyances, and go for something big?
18:42:14  <andythenorth> add a new transport type (packets) and rework roads AND water
18:42:23  <andythenorth> that would be a nice v2
18:42:27  <andythenorth> and it’s a hard problem
18:42:59  <andythenorth> introducing lots of nice new bugs, UI, spec and game balance issues
18:42:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sure. but that inevitably gets to a point to add sprites, which brings us to the exact location where it failed the last time
18:43:11  <andythenorth> ha :)
18:43:42  <andythenorth> it is essential that openttd.grf is compiled with openttd though?
18:43:58  <planetmaker> frosch123, so, numbering all sprites explicitly in openttd.grf would do the trick... would we really want that?
18:44:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, and if you don't have grfcodec installed it will just skip it
18:44:45  <frosch123> iirc grfcodec prints a warning, so it would even get noticed
18:45:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it will just use the previously compiled .grf
18:45:28  <andythenorth> but if the previously compiled grf misses the sprites...
18:45:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this piece is only there for religious zealots who want EVERYTHING to be compiled from source
18:46:01  <andythenorth> we respect them highly though no?
18:46:06  <andythenorth> because they submit lots of useful patches?
18:46:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can fairly easily compile the grf manually
18:46:30  <andythenorth> and we wouldn’t get packaged on major distros if you couldn’t 100% build from source?
18:46:43  <andythenorth> cos nobody ever uses pre-build game art packages or anything
18:47:02  <andythenorth> built *
18:47:33  <michi_cc> Debian insists. And half the other distros take from Debian.
18:48:41  * andythenorth tries to make a counter argument, fails to find any
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18:49:47  <andythenorth> hmm, the most fun thing about my last game was the requirement to totally change my play style
18:50:07  <andythenorth> to suit cdist behaviour at secondary industries with multiple destinations
18:50:19  <andythenorth> new rules => new game, ish
18:51:50  <andythenorth> the amusing fallacy in that
18:52:20  <andythenorth> is that my ‘new rules’ essentially neutralise cdist, by providing one station for every source-destination pair
18:52:38  <andythenorth> and never connecting any links for secondary cargo
18:53:11  <andythenorth> so there are many linkgraphs composed of single directed links
18:53:12  <andythenorth> what larks
18:55:47  <Alberth> hmm, 290 tonnes of wood from a forest in 1934 :)
18:56:09  <andythenorth> not much :)
18:56:13  <andythenorth> deliver supplies :P
18:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause> wood cutting supplies?
18:56:50  <Alberth> tree multipliers
18:56:51  <andythenorth> moar axes
18:57:14  <Supercheese> more lumberjacks
18:57:14  <andythenorth> new cb
18:57:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you have my axe
18:57:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and my sword
18:57:24  <andythenorth> ‘industry occasionally plants trees'
18:57:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and my bow
18:57:25  <andythenorth> :P
18:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> [in wrong order, probably]
18:57:59  <andythenorth> can we set a ‘sustainable forestry bit’ for ‘industry cuts trees’?
18:58:09  <andythenorth> ‘industry plants one tree for every tree cut'
18:58:31  <andythenorth> ‘deliver supplies regularly and industry will plant more trees’
18:58:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's what the temperate forest is supposed to represent, right?
18:58:39  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes :)
18:58:43  * andythenorth is just dicking around
19:00:58  <Dax> hey guys
19:01:01  <Dax> i just finished my pack
19:01:15  <Dax> i forgot how I can upload it though on the community...
19:01:18  <Dax> i need to register to the forum ?
19:01:46  <Supercheese> you need to register with Bananas at least
19:01:53  <Supercheese>
19:03:12  <Dax> thanks
19:05:42  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want feedback from users, a forum post probably helps ;)
19:07:27  <frosch123> unless you want useful feedback :p
19:10:34  <andythenorth> you can’t predict in advance :)
19:10:39  <andythenorth> well, you can statistically :P
19:11:08  <andythenorth> sometimes forums are valuable
19:15:42  <andythenorth> sometimes the value of forum comments is inestimable :P
19:19:28  <Dax> well honestly I don't know what feedback I could expect on a bunch of city names :p
19:20:15  <Dax> hmm I'm logged into the Bananas
19:20:24  <Dax> but I can't see any submit content button or stuff like that
19:20:49  <Supercheese>
19:20:59  <Dax> ah, thanks
19:21:00  <Eddi|zuHause> typically a bunch of "nice" and "well done", before anyone complains that the whole thread consists only of "nice"s and "well done"s
19:21:01  <Dax> i have to sign up
19:21:06  <Dax> XD
19:23:09  <andythenorth> then a complaint about the unrealistic payment model, and a request for subways
19:23:24  <andythenorth> ‘unrealistic’ :P
19:24:15  <Supercheese> I tried to give the masses their subways
19:24:26  <Supercheese> not sure it caught on
19:25:32  * andythenorth wonders if newgrf can do distance-neutral cargo payment
19:25:35  <andythenorth> for the idiots :P
19:26:35  <Alberth>   claims it can, it seems
19:26:44  <Dax> just one tiny problem left
19:26:50  <Dax> i have no clue how to make .tar archives
19:26:55  <Dax> to pack it with the readme file
19:27:03  <Dax> i guess openttd won't read .zip or .rar ?
19:27:14  <Alberth> you guessed right :p
19:27:19  <Supercheese> think it reads .zip
19:27:30  <Alberth> :o
19:27:40  <Supercheese> I upload my grf bundles as .zips
19:27:43  <frosch123> yes, a zip with readme.txt and the .grf should work
19:27:44  <Supercheese> seems to take
19:27:48  <Dax> great
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19:32:46  <Dax> hmmm nope my openTTD doesn't see it :( it's not appearing in the newGRF options when it's zipped
19:32:58  <Dax> dunno
19:33:35  <frosch123> well, yes, openttd does not understand it
19:33:37  <frosch123> but bananas
19:33:37  <Eddi|zuHause> no, openttd won't read the zip, but bananas wil repack it into a tar with the right files
19:34:03  <Dax> oh!
19:34:06  <Dax> i see now :)
19:34:07  <Dax> thanks
19:36:56  <Dax> it asks me for a minimum openTTD version...
19:37:08  <Dax> honestly I have no idea, I'm guessing it should be compatible with all?
19:38:03  <frosch123> select 1.2
19:38:19  <Dax> thanks
19:38:22  <frosch123> nmlc compiles for >= 1.2
19:38:27  <frosch123> the .grf format changed back then
19:39:08  <Dax> i see
19:39:16  <Dax> oh god it wants a license and won't let me go further otherwise
19:39:21  <Dax> but I don't care -_-
19:39:35  <planetmaker> select gplv2
19:39:41  <planetmaker> or cc-0
19:39:44  <andythenorth> we should add wtfpl
19:39:44  <planetmaker> if you don't care
19:39:46  <Dax> all right
19:39:53  <frosch123> use cc-0, gpl is too much work with sources :)
19:40:00  <planetmaker> true
19:40:21  <Dax> too late XD
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19:40:28  <Alberth> Dax: not having a license means you don't want others to use and distribute it
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19:40:44  <Dax> Alberth I wrote on my readme about that
19:40:50  <Dax> but when I tried to select Custo
19:40:53  <Dax> *Custom
19:41:04  <Dax> it said that "it couldn't find a custom licence" and I don't know what it wanted
19:41:06  <planetmaker> it needs then a license.txt
19:41:13  <Dax> amen :p
19:41:16  <planetmaker> as openttd has buttons for both, readme and license
19:41:48  <planetmaker> if you ever looked at a newgrf in the newgrf selection window you could know ;)
19:42:23  <Dax> yeah i did see them
19:42:39  <Dax> but I thought it was just people being precise
19:42:46  <Dax> btw it's uploaded
19:43:03  <Dax> at the moment it appears in black though, not sure if it's because it needs time
19:43:06  <Dax> i mean, non-clickable
19:43:12  <Dax>
19:43:19  <Dax> no sorry
19:43:23  <Dax> i think it's time i go to sleep
19:43:29  <Dax> that's 'cause i didn't set any URL :p
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19:43:40  <Dax> i'll try to download the .gz now
19:44:22  <Supercheese> it does take a short time before the download link appears
19:44:31  <Dax> actually no, let's try from OpenTTD
19:44:37  <Dax> no Supercheese it was me being stupid no worries
19:44:51  <planetmaker> the website download link is different from the ingame one
19:44:51  <frosch123> Supercheese: i think it is pretty instant these days
19:45:24  <frosch123> the mirror scripts took some evolution classes :)
19:45:57  <Dax> yeah planetmaker i downloaded it from openttd
19:46:07  <Dax> seems fine, just need to launch a game and i'm done
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19:47:15  <Dax> working fine
19:47:24  <Dax> thanks to all who helped :D
19:47:37  <Dax> bye ^^
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19:49:04  <planetmaker> now that was a pleasant surprise :) Not often a user comes, wants a grf and immediately makes it himself
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19:51:33  <Wolf01> hi hi
19:52:42  <frosch123> there is our resident italian guy :)
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20:52:22  <__ln__>
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20:58:18  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: is there that much difference between the languages?
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21:31:24  <Dax> sigh
21:31:48  <Dax> i know some people already saw my thread but I'm having some problems with the game:
21:31:57  <Dax> appreciate anyone who could offer help :/
21:32:56  <Dax> a simple question: will my in-game settings be resetted if i uninstall and reinstall it?
21:44:25  *** Supercheese [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:57:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. settings are stored in Documents\OpenTTD. uninstalling does not touch that
21:57:27  <Eddi|zuHause> eh. i mean no, i misread your question
21:57:48  <Eddi|zuHause> for resetting, you need to delete openttd.cfg in that same place
21:59:13  <Dax> no no you read it right
21:59:21  <Dax> i just wanted to have a backup of my current settings
21:59:28  <Dax> so that I could understand if it's something there indeed or not
21:59:43  <Dax> since I actually had tweaked them a lot, and if that's not where the problem is, so that I won't have to do it again :)
22:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, just make a copy of that entire folder before messing with stuff
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22:02:08  <Dax> I actually did something more simple
22:02:13  <Dax> instead of uninstalling
22:02:21  <Dax> i deleted the cfg file to re-set things to zero
22:02:26  <Dax> of course i kept a backup
22:02:29  <Dax> i'm testing now
22:02:44  <Dax> ok nope, didn't change anything :(
22:05:52  <Dax> silly question: is there any way to rotate the visuals btw?
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22:15:48  <Dax> nvm found a thread, doesn't seem so. would've been cool to at least rotate the minimap
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22:37:39  <Wolf01> 'night
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