Log for #openttd on 17th July 2015:
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07:17:49  <andythenorth> o/
07:19:45  <planetmaker> \o
07:22:43  <planetmaker> andythenorth, are you going to reply to every suggestion that it's pointless and no work done anyway? I do think that it's neither helpful nor exactly true but subject to observation bias
07:23:16  <andythenorth> I did wonder if we should ask for the suggestions forum to be locked
07:23:26  <andythenorth> but then they’d just show up in general OpenTTD forum
07:23:48  <andythenorth> suggestions are inevitable
07:23:59  <planetmaker> yes. And they're good to have
07:24:09  <planetmaker> It's good if there are many more than possible to implement
07:25:09  <andythenorth> I dunno, something feels disingenuous to me about it
07:25:15  <andythenorth> maybe that’s irrational
07:25:41  <planetmaker> yes, maybe. But don't de-value the contributions. Especially in the suggestions forum it's ok to get creative
07:25:41  <andythenorth> encouraging suggestions that will never be acted upon seems a bit morally dubious
07:25:58  <planetmaker> Answers in the order of 'stop suggestions' are not helpful there
07:25:58  <andythenorth> I wondered about pinning a topic
07:26:19  <andythenorth> explain maybe that suggestions are welcome, but that OpenTTD feature development is mostly ceased
07:26:28  <planetmaker> that's neither true
07:27:07  <planetmaker> why do you put an effort in actively killing the project?
07:27:25  <andythenorth> nah it’s already dead :)
07:27:30  <andythenorth> but that’s fine
07:27:33  <andythenorth> it’s done, it works
07:27:45  <andythenorth> most developers left because the work is done
07:27:48  <planetmaker> if it dies due to dwindling contributions... ok. But telling people "no, we won't do anything", that's stupid
07:28:25  <andythenorth> I am not strongly disagreeing, but I don’t see what we lose by that?
07:28:53  <planetmaker> we loose any hope. And any future which we might have for the project when we bury it before it's dead
07:29:13  <planetmaker> so please, bury your openttd future. But let others keep it alive if they wish
07:29:32  <planetmaker> don't bury it for others, too
07:31:28  <planetmaker> I really don't see a point in starting a vicious cycle
07:31:43  <planetmaker> or spinning it more than it does. whatever
07:33:48  <andythenorth> hmm
07:33:52  <andythenorth> I see it differently :)
07:34:37  <andythenorth> I think OpenTTD has won
07:34:46  <andythenorth> I don’t see any loss of hope :)
07:34:54  <planetmaker> well, what's the benefit of calling it done and telling everyone "no point in contributing"?
07:35:02  <planetmaker> It cannot have any positive influence, can it?
07:35:51  <planetmaker> maybe I just don't get it. But please tell me what you want to achieve by that
07:35:55  <andythenorth> moves the burden of responsibility
07:36:15  <planetmaker> No-one has a responsibility. We all do stuff voluntarily
07:36:22  <andythenorth> I’ve seen other projects do this, where most of the core contributors had left
07:36:35  <andythenorth> I don’t know whether it succeeded though
07:36:48  <planetmaker> can you point me to some?
07:36:51  <andythenorth> this = be upfront that there is no more active development
07:39:13  <andythenorth> best example is a now 3 or 4 year debate about future of Plone, here’s an example post
07:39:42  <andythenorth> Plone, similarly to OpenTTD was one of the best open source projects in its area of application
07:40:17  <andythenorth> although tbh, unlike OpenTTD, it’s turned out to be mostly just wrong
07:40:41  <andythenorth> and unlike OpenTTD, it’s bleeding developers to much better projects
07:41:33  <andythenorth> interestingly, a project also largely driven by northern europeans, especially Germans and Dutch and so on, similar to OpenTTD
07:42:48  <planetmaker> to me (4) doesn't read at all like that attitude
07:42:53  <planetmaker> on the contrary
07:43:16  <planetmaker> he just says "we're moving along but with different people"
07:43:36  <andythenorth> yeah, there’s a lot more involved
07:43:54  <andythenorth> couple of people who work with me were involved in the Plone Foundation that looks after the project
07:44:03  <andythenorth> lots of politics for a long time
07:45:28  <andythenorth> ugh, so many Plone articles on google, can’t find what I’m looking for :P
07:46:32  <andythenorth> I dunno, it’s probably a bad example
07:46:39  <andythenorth> Plone mostly sucks, OpenTTD doesn't
07:47:48  <andythenorth> I’ve played it intensively recently
07:47:53  <andythenorth> it’s very good
07:49:20  <JezK> plone?
07:49:26  <JezK> the CMS?
07:49:26  <planetmaker> :)
07:49:32  <JezK> or is there another plone?
07:49:39  <planetmaker> the cms, yes
07:50:04  <JezK> ahh, i was thinking you were talking about another openttd style game called plone =p
07:50:09  <andythenorth> the CMS
07:50:32  <andythenorth> not the ambient music producer on Warp records, for which Plone is named
07:51:00  <JezK> aha
07:51:18  <andythenorth>
07:51:53  * andythenorth wonders if there are other OpenTTDs :P
07:54:38  <andythenorth> eh, I really don’t think the current state of trunk dev is a problem
07:54:48  <andythenorth> there are nearly 70 fixes committed since start of 2015
07:54:53  <andythenorth> mostly by frosch
07:54:57  <andythenorth> that’s a lot of fixes
07:55:27  <andythenorth> most of the rest of the commits are translator
07:56:06  <andythenorth> couple of features, both small but important
07:58:19  <planetmaker> yes, frosch is the true workhorse nowadays
07:58:30  <andythenorth> maybe it just needs articulating more positively
07:58:34  <planetmaker> we should recruit afd88 ;)
07:58:42  <andythenorth> I stand by the factual truth of what I saud
07:58:43  <andythenorth> said *
07:59:12  <planetmaker> what factual truth? That we only fix and add translations? That's not a truth, I think
07:59:20  <planetmaker> that we got less and less commits? sure
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07:59:36  <andythenorth> timeframe probably matters
07:59:37  <planetmaker> but imho you mostly stated an attitude. And I'm not sure many share that
07:59:43  <andythenorth> MHL and cdist are big changes
07:59:58  <andythenorth> whether they’re successful is another matter
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08:19:08  <andythenorth> eh planetmaker thanks, you’ve caused me to work out what is actually bothering me
08:30:21  <planetmaker> :)
08:30:28  <planetmaker> so, what is it actually, andythenorth ?
08:31:04  <andythenorth> three things, only one is important
08:32:01  <andythenorth> frosch can speak for himself, but he’s the main committer this year, and I worry he’ll end up rage quitting, or just getting bored
08:32:19  <andythenorth> when you’re the only person really working on a big project, the fun goes
08:32:38  <andythenorth> and when there is a constant stream of demands and requests it is annoying
08:33:09  <planetmaker> agreed
08:33:18  <andythenorth> and when some of the things committed (to get just any new features in) turn out to be failed, or you’re unpicking other people’s mistakes
08:33:24  <andythenorth> then that is a recipe for rage quit
08:33:47  <planetmaker> yes, also agreed
08:33:52  <andythenorth> e.g. the stuff to get MHL in
08:34:28  <andythenorth> and;a=commitdiff;h=80df19434134a46d3a55953d7138df7c32ceeb76
08:35:41  <andythenorth> second thing, although trunk OpenTTD is pretty static, GS, NewGRF, AI and web translations are all active
08:37:23  <planetmaker> ok. How does that bother you, though?
08:37:35  <andythenorth> nah, it’s a good thing actually
08:37:41  <planetmaker> sounds like cause for elation :) ah, ok
08:37:50  <andythenorth> I wonder if it should be emphasised
08:38:51  <andythenorth> third thing is collaboration
08:39:11  <andythenorth> FIRS and OpenGFX both caused a lot of things to advance, because they drew in lots of people
08:39:49  <planetmaker> they did, yes. And tbh, making extensions got a lot easier in the last 5 years or so
08:39:55  <planetmaker> or 6 or 7
08:40:20  <andythenorth> eints was a collaboration
08:40:41  <andythenorth> ah that wasn’t the third thing :P
08:40:43  * andythenorth lacks sleep
08:40:47  <andythenorth> third thing was :D
08:41:10  <andythenorth> far as I can tell, Nobody Who Makes the Game Has Played it in Ages
08:41:20  <andythenorth> I mean, it’s funny for a bit, but actually it’s a good game
08:41:24  <planetmaker> frosch plays regularily. Alberth, too
08:41:34  <andythenorth> ok
08:42:17  <andythenorth> sometimes it seems like irc chat is between people playing the game secondhand via forums :P
08:42:49  <andythenorth> Busy Bee was nearly a collaboration :(
08:42:56  <andythenorth> but I couldn’t learn Squirrel fast enough
08:46:55  <planetmaker> :) Next one then
08:47:04  <planetmaker> with reversed roles
08:51:13  * andythenorth bbl, work time
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09:34:23  <newbie2> Hi. I would like to see the local authority rating points. I can see the rating (e.g. 'poor'), but I want to see the rating points (e.g. '-150'). I want to see the points to learn better how it works/changes. Is there a way to see the points?
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10:12:43  <planetmaker> newbie2, the rating do not have any more detailed interface. However there's a wiki page on those which explain the details
10:13:13  <planetmaker>
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10:21:30  <newbie2> planetmaker: OK, so I don't need to click around more to try to find it. Thanks.
10:22:59  <newbie2> Also for the pointer to the wiki page.
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14:47:22  <Terkhen> hello
14:47:28  <Alberth> o/
14:48:01  <andythenorth> o/
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16:58:17  <peter1138> evening
16:58:28  <andythenorth> lo
16:58:30  <planetmaker> o/
16:58:35  <Rubidium> isn't it still afternoon in BST?
16:58:49  <andythenorth> on the cusp
16:59:00  <andythenorth> in the street outside my office, many people have started their evening
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17:33:49  <Wolf01> o/
17:41:36  <Eddi|zuHause> after the noon is before the noon
17:43:09  <Eddi|zuHause> (vaguely based on a famous german football phrase)
17:45:23  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27336 trunk/src/lang/greek.txt (2015-07-17 19:45:14 +0200 )
17:45:24  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:25  <DorpsGek> greek - 36 changes by Jubilee
17:45:44  <Eddi|zuHause> do english speakers ever use the phrase "beforenoon"?
17:46:39  <Eddi|zuHause> there exists the equivalent german phrase
17:47:05  <peter1138> no, that's just morning
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17:47:58  * peter1138 cracks out the cider
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17:50:29  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well, "beforenoon" would be the phase after you've properly woken up, and are capable of getting actual work done, and before the lunch break
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18:20:19  <andythenorth> also
18:20:58  <andythenorth> peter1138: is it proper cider?
18:23:30  <andythenorth>
18:23:57  <peter1138> it's... store bought
18:25:05  <peter1138>
18:25:40  <andythenorth> not scrump :)
18:25:47  * andythenorth buys westons in pubs
18:25:57  <andythenorth> but it’s a bit
18:26:02  <andythenorth> and doesn’t glow in the dark
18:26:29  <peter1138> an essential attribute
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18:52:05  <andythenorth> eh indulge me
18:52:29  <andythenorth> _if_ there was a v2, and _if_ a v2 is a chance to break backwards compatibility
18:52:34  <andythenorth> what to delete?
18:54:35  <planetmaker> base set backward compatibility
18:55:17  <planetmaker> removing newgrf ability to modify the base vehicles. Thus allow base sets to do what they want
18:55:23  <andythenorth> o_O
18:55:38  <planetmaker> --> better out-of-box experience
18:56:23  <planetmaker> we would need to recruit andythenorth, Pokka and V to make us a new, nice one, though
18:56:35  <planetmaker> but I'm sure they'll manage
18:57:00  <frosch123> he, that's about the most sane suggestion for v2 i have read :)
18:57:44  <frosch123> v1 was to not depend on original baseset
18:57:49  <frosch123> v2 is to not depend on any baseset :p
18:58:12  <andythenorth> :)
18:58:15  <Rubidium> graphics: replace with something better, i.e. no NewGRF but something more sane (remove many inconsistencies), forced rotation of graphics (and thus map rotation), ...
18:58:25  * andythenorth would get rid of drive-in roadstops :P
18:58:36  <andythenorth> small thing, but they’re really crufty
19:00:03  <andythenorth> frosch123: which bits of newgrf spec would go in the bin? o_O
19:00:16  <planetmaker> v6 and earlier
19:00:21  <planetmaker> at least
19:00:26  <andythenorth> if Rubidium’s suggestion was enacted, all of newgrf :P
19:00:35  <planetmaker> vehicles not
19:00:42  <peter1138> multicore rewrite ;)
19:00:47  <andythenorth> if there was rotation, FIRS buildings would all become square, and symmetrical in both axes :P
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19:01:09  <peter1138> cubicals
19:01:24  <andythenorth> that’s new stuff :)
19:01:27  <andythenorth> not deleting :)
19:01:29  <frosch123> well, certainly decoupling of graphics from game logic
19:01:46  <frosch123> no animation state in map array and such
19:02:15  <frosch123> no tileloop and such
19:02:42  <andythenorth> drop the crazy cargo refitting decision tree :P
19:02:43  <planetmaker> that then would allow a true client-server structure
19:03:52  <andythenorth> delete outsized maps :)
19:04:12  <frosch123> make it like factorio
19:04:23  <frosch123> make the map expand when you explore/build things
19:04:28  <andythenorth> do I have to install factorio? :P
19:04:36  <andythenorth> it seems to have fans here :)
19:04:39  <frosch123> then we could play multiplayer
19:04:54  <frosch123> i haven't played factorio in multiplayer
19:05:10  <frosch123> but i think it needs to played at #ccop scale
19:05:12  * andythenorth needs time off work
19:05:23  <andythenorth> but if I take time off work, I’ll spend it with my kids
19:05:26  <andythenorth> this is how it goes :P
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19:05:40  * andythenorth isn’t complaining, it’s fun
19:05:53  <frosch123> make the children do the work instead
19:06:17  <andythenorth> ha
19:06:22  <andythenorth> nah they’ll be big enough soon
19:06:32  <andythenorth> already 5 years gone by
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19:10:08  <andythenorth> not many deletion suggestions eh? :)
19:10:40  <Rubidium> okay, you're asking for it... Windows and OSX support
19:10:58  <andythenorth> plausible
19:12:18  <frosch123> airports :)
19:12:26  <andythenorth> ho
19:12:32  <andythenorth> total removal? o_O
19:13:05  <frosch123> similar to drive-in roadstops
19:13:28  <andythenorth> no planes? o_O
19:13:44  <frosch123> <- build aircraft infrastructure like road stops
19:14:05  <andythenorth> hmm
19:14:07  <andythenorth> feature
19:14:07  <frosch123> remove the statemachine stuff
19:14:12  <frosch123> statemachines are boring
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19:14:28  <andythenorth> docks?
19:14:38  <andythenorth> canals :P
19:14:57  <frosch123> boring as timetables, cdist, pbs, pathfinders, ... all the things that decide things for the player
19:15:18  <frosch123> though i guess pathfinders needs to stay an option :p
19:15:26  <andythenorth> timetables are boring
19:15:39  <andythenorth> cdist is
technically impressive, but only really works for pax :P
19:15:46  <andythenorth> pbs I would really miss :(
19:15:59  <andythenorth> PBS probably the single most transforming feature I’ve seen ship :P
19:16:11  <andythenorth> hmm
19:16:13  <andythenorth> actually
19:16:20  <frosch123> we need a different type of pbs :p
19:16:36  <frosch123> it should not be one that routes vehicles automatically
19:16:55  <andythenorth> by making trains pretty easy to route on complex networks, PBS disadvantages the other transport types even more
19:17:00  <frosch123> but one that allows players to (optionally) micromanage which routes may enter the signal block in parallel
19:17:29  <andythenorth> also PBS introduction was when I turned breakdowns off
19:17:47  <frosch123> nah, breakdowns will stay, else it's no "ttd" :p
19:17:51  <andythenorth> probably coincidence, but trains seemed to not find depots reliably without explicit orders
19:18:00  <andythenorth> after PBS
19:18:11  <frosch123> no coincidence
19:18:13  <planetmaker> lol frosch123 :)
19:18:30  <frosch123> a train follows a reserved path
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19:18:48  <frosch123> so, a train needs to make the decision to go to a depot at the signal instead of at the junction
19:18:53  <frosch123> so, path to depots is longer
19:19:03  <frosch123> also, path penalties are different with pbs signals
19:19:51  <frosch123> so, i am not surprised that pbs breaks some depot track layouts
19:19:56  <frosch123> though none which i use :p
19:21:08  <andythenorth> :o
19:21:12  * andythenorth is shocked
19:21:17  <andythenorth> nobody mentioned high score table :)
19:21:42  <frosch123> aren't they already removed? :p
19:22:05  <frosch123> funnily noone complained about that :p
19:23:04  <planetmaker> no-one used it anyway ;)
19:23:40  <andythenorth> still here for me :P
19:24:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: there were once 4 highscore tables
19:24:06  <frosch123> now there is 1
19:24:33  * andythenorth has to test this
19:24:34  <andythenorth> :P
19:25:28  * andythenorth finds
19:25:36  <andythenorth> - high score table in start game screen
19:25:40  <andythenorth> - high score table in game
19:25:50  <andythenorth> - detailed performance rating
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19:26:00  <andythenorth> - company league table
19:26:20  <frosch123> there are 5 highscore tables
19:26:46  <andythenorth> balls, I missed some :(
19:26:50  <frosch123> 3 for difficulty levels (removed), 1 for custom difficulty (still exists), 1 for multiplayer (only within a single game, not stored on disk)
19:27:21  <andythenorth> well
19:27:27  <andythenorth> in the start game screen
19:27:41  <andythenorth> get rid of ‘game options’ and ‘high score table’ and the layout balances :)
19:29:09  <planetmaker> and add 'wiki' and 'favourite server' buttons instead
19:32:16  <andythenorth> ha
19:32:44  <andythenorth> in this mind game, you can’t make feature suggestions, no matter how good :)
19:33:02  <andythenorth> remove maglev :P
19:33:07  <andythenorth> mostly because it’s ugly
19:33:57  <frosch123> well, i guess remove the stuff which noone care about, like stocks :p
19:34:30  <andythenorth> they are so lame
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19:34:42  <andythenorth> railroad tycoon 3 had an awesome stock market
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19:34:49  <andythenorth> some scenarios were pure stock trading
19:35:29  <andythenorth> did infrastructure costs actually achieve the aim of rebalancing the game?
19:35:38  <andythenorth> or is it just something that we forget to turn off in multiplayer?
19:35:39  <andythenorth> :P
19:36:04  <frosch123> it removed airports from the game or so :p
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19:36:39  <andythenorth> hmm
19:37:24  <frosch123> anyway, yes, none of the air features like noise limit, distance limit, infra cost seem to have received any big scale approval
19:37:36  <planetmaker> inflation... should go
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19:37:56  <planetmaker> but doesn't really matter
19:37:56  <frosch123> realism should go :)
19:38:01  <andythenorth> +lots
19:38:22  <andythenorth> noise limit is just a thing I have to use OpenGFX+ Airports to circumvent
19:38:37  <andythenorth> one reason we don’t play those fun MP games very often
19:38:47  <andythenorth> is that it takes so fricking long to configure a game ‘correctly'
19:39:13  <frosch123> that's only because my settings are always messed up due to debugging
19:40:01  <andythenorth> and so are mine
and planetmaker’s
and alberth’s :P
19:40:07  <frosch123> we need settings profiles :)
19:40:57  <frosch123> maybe load the previous game, change the seed and use "restart" to get new map with same settings
19:41:31  <andythenorth> intriguing idea
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19:41:39  <andythenorth> what else confuses people to no benefit?
19:41:50  * andythenorth is looking in the game
19:41:57  <andythenorth> so many *good* features got added
19:42:11  <andythenorth> the game is radically better than 0.4 or whatever I started playing
19:42:21  <frosch123> the best features were always the interface features :)
19:42:53  <frosch123> and removing building restrictions
19:42:55  <andythenorth> yes
19:43:00  <andythenorth> roadstops on steep slopes
19:43:04  <andythenorth> alphabetised lists
19:43:08  <andythenorth> map colour
19:43:16  <andythenorth> and so on
19:43:38  <andythenorth> most of the attempts to ‘fix game balance’ or ‘add realism’ are FAIL
19:44:19  <planetmaker> they're fail because of backward compatibility
19:44:51  <frosch123> really? why?
19:45:16  <frosch123> game balance is not fixable, because "money" is the only thing in ottd, and money is gained exponentially in every game i have ever seen
19:45:22  <frosch123> thus most games have something other than money
19:45:50  <andythenorth> the casual games (dragon farming, angry birds etc) my kids play
19:46:05  <planetmaker> maybe not because of that. But makes it definitely harder :)
19:46:11  <frosch123> "realism" is has ruined quite some features which should have been interesting, but i do not see where compatibility goes into that
19:46:48  <andythenorth> frosch123: is ‘smooth economy’ actually better?
19:46:53  <andythenorth> I never tested FIRS without it
19:46:55  <frosch123> no
19:47:01  * andythenorth wondered
19:47:12  <frosch123> when i was a noob to ottd i thought smooth economy was awesome
19:47:13  <andythenorth> and saw the comment added
19:47:18  <andythenorth> +1
19:47:33  <frosch123> but it's a stochastical fallacy
19:47:36  <frosch123> like your 3 doors thingie
19:47:44  <andythenorth> what was the intent of it?
19:47:54  <frosch123> smooth economy actually removes randomness, by adding so many small random changes, that they all average out
19:48:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: likely "realism" :p
19:48:06  <andythenorth> needs black swan events :P
19:48:32  <andythenorth> ’multiple industries per town’ still a setting, really?
19:48:35  <andythenorth> how boring
19:49:16  <frosch123> yeah, that's a weird setting :p
19:49:32  <planetmaker> that's indeed weired
19:49:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: FIRS overrides smooth economy with the production callback
19:49:42  <andythenorth> I know
19:49:42  <planetmaker> is it still real?
19:49:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so the setting has no effect
19:50:01  <andythenorth> yes, the help text also explains the same
19:50:50  <andythenorth> towns can’t prevent newgrf building multiple industries per town?
19:50:52  * andythenorth tests
19:51:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the last time i played without an industry set (and thus with smooth economy) was before industry sets were supported
19:51:32  <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, the first industry set i played was alpine, which probably leaves smooth economy untouched
19:51:40  <andythenorth> ho, no the multiple industry setting does apply to newgrf
19:52:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, why wouldn't it?
19:53:11  <andythenorth> because the location cbs are used?
19:53:29  <andythenorth> why wouldn’t the smooth economy apply to industries using production cb?
19:59:36  <Eddi|zuHause> because there can only ever be one way to set the production level
20:00:04  <andythenorth> dunno, seems to be unclear about proper domain
20:00:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody made the production callback compatible with non-power-of-two increments
20:00:43  <andythenorth> remove canals?
20:00:49  <Eddi|zuHause> no.
20:01:05  <Eddi|zuHause> make them cheaper to build, but more expensive to maintain
20:01:15  <andythenorth> that’s just newgrf
20:01:31  <Eddi|zuHause> ignore newgrfs
20:01:39  <andythenorth> fair comment
20:01:40  <Eddi|zuHause> 99% of all people will never use newgrfs
20:01:49  <planetmaker> I don't think so
20:02:06  <Eddi|zuHause> 99% of all people will never change the default settings
20:02:08  <andythenorth> remove rivers?
20:02:29  <frosch123> remove flooding sea?
20:02:29  <Eddi|zuHause> (this applies to almost all programs ever made)
20:02:56  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that sounds fine
20:03:03  <andythenorth> frosch123: interesting
20:03:15  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: offer flat shore sprites
20:03:43  <andythenorth> ha
20:03:47  <andythenorth> ‘Disable electric rails’
20:03:54  <andythenorth> is that just a setting in case you have a stuck train?
20:04:01  <andythenorth> does it also make all railtypes powered?
20:04:12  <frosch123> it's from the time when catenary was horribly misaligned
20:04:16  <frosch123> and people wanted to play without elrails
20:04:16  <Eddi|zuHause> or remove the current way of providing sea shores, and provide them more like river shores (but a sandy-er version)
20:04:31  <frosch123> then it was properly aligned, and then came transpacency settings
20:04:40  <planetmaker> :)
20:04:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: you missed eddi's hind
20:04:45  <frosch123> *hint
20:04:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is a setting for TTD-purists that basically has no point in being there anymore
20:04:50  <frosch123> flat shores mean flat docks :p
20:05:01  <andythenorth> that’s a feature :)
20:05:02  <planetmaker> :)
20:05:04  <andythenorth> not a deletion
20:05:17  <andythenorth> you have to phrase it as ‘delete docks that need slopes'
20:05:18  <planetmaker> probably would make sense. And flat bridges= :P
20:05:43  <andythenorth> deleting a lot of things would transform the game to a v2, and clear away a lot of crap
20:05:49  <andythenorth> and is achieveable :P
20:06:00  <andythenorth> adding features needs design, spec, blah blah blah
20:06:18  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the "remove electric rail" settings make all electric trains also powered on non-electric rail
20:06:36  <andythenorth> it looked like a thing for unsticking stuck trains :P
20:06:41  <andythenorth> seems daft
20:06:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and then converts all ELRL to RAIL
20:07:14  <andythenorth> remove river rapids?
20:07:20  <andythenorth> dunno, rivers are tedious
20:07:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, but make it more obvious that ships cannot traverse them, and make locks easier to place along such a rapid
20:07:44  <peter1138> oh yeah, i was doing something with docks wasn't i?
20:07:59  <andythenorth> probably :)
20:08:04  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: shorter locks?
20:08:31  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no reason why locks are as huge as they are, other than the ships are also huge
20:09:17  <planetmaker> locks should just be normal station tiles which can be placed on water or shore tiles
20:09:18  <andythenorth> remove the bit of cb15E that makes it trivial to break orders silently :)
20:09:28  <andythenorth> planetmaker: locks / docks /s
20:09:28  <andythenorth> ?
20:09:30  <planetmaker> freely buildable like track-less rail station tiles
20:09:38  <planetmaker> yes, dock tiles. sorry
20:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i called these things "traffic objects"
20:09:56  <andythenorth> ha, remove cargo subtypes
? o_O
20:10:02  <andythenorth> they’re dozy
20:10:04  <planetmaker> yes, probably
20:10:13  <andythenorth> even though I use subtypes in a few places still :P
20:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> look at how subtypes are abused currently, and provide new methods reproducing those features without abusing anything
20:11:29  <Eddi|zuHause> like "vehicle views" that are set in purchase menu, and then cannot be changed anymore afterwards
20:11:44  <Eddi|zuHause> other than selling the vehicle and buying a new one
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20:14:07  <andythenorth> remove the cbs that aren’t cb 36, but duplicate it
20:14:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: we were already at remove newgrf
20:14:58  <frosch123> why do you talk calbacks?
20:14:59  <andythenorth> oh yeah
20:15:08  * andythenorth apologises profusely
20:15:56  <andythenorth> somehow I’d like to remove finances window, but that makes no sense
20:16:05  * andythenorth finds the finances window really non-useful
20:17:39  <peter1138> remove openttd
20:18:00  <andythenorth> :(
20:18:10  <andythenorth> this is not a game of mornington crescent
20:18:17  <andythenorth> and you do not pass go and collect £200
20:19:21  <andythenorth> ho, remove trams...?
20:19:24  <andythenorth> they’re a bit silly
20:19:45  <frosch123> maybe remove vehicle income
20:20:09  <andythenorth> that is actually interesting
20:20:17  <andythenorth> would totally change the game
20:20:31  <andythenorth> it’s crap as an economic sim
20:20:46  <andythenorth> the economics were clearly a total “can’t really be arsed” for Chris Sawyer
20:20:54  <frosch123> you get money for building tracks and providing a transport capacity
20:21:06  <andythenorth> you have a total cost, and a total revenue
20:21:12  <frosch123> you lose money if you fail to provide the capacity
20:21:17  <andythenorth> no more leg profit calculation crap
20:21:26  <andythenorth> no more ‘this vehicle is losing money'
20:21:38  <andythenorth> no more feature requests for full vehicle economic history
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20:21:52  <andythenorth> no need for red / green symbols in the vehicle list
20:22:49  <andythenorth> frosch123: experimental branch? o_O
20:23:26  <frosch123> not for me :p
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20:23:39  <frosch123> money is after all still not interesting :p
20:23:50  * andythenorth wonders if it’s a good idea, or just sounds like a good idea
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20:24:18  <frosch123> it's certainly an idea which noone will understand :p
20:24:35  <andythenorth> well, I understood it :(
20:25:09  <andythenorth> in the dragon farming casual game, individual dragon profitability is not tracked :P
20:25:21  <andythenorth> they just farm wood and fish, and you get a score :P
20:25:33  <andythenorth> you pick the ones that look cool and have good stats
20:27:45  <andythenorth> frosch123: eh, money is not interesting, or money should be removed from the game totally?
20:29:47  <frosch123> you need something to pace the game
20:30:00  <andythenorth> could be other ways
20:30:03  <andythenorth> tech levels and such
20:30:12  <andythenorth> ‘level up’ is a very silly mechanic
20:30:18  <andythenorth> except it works, annoyingly well :(
20:30:21  <frosch123> you should be able to do what is necessary, but not more
20:30:55  <andythenorth> ‘state-owned transportation tycoon'
20:30:57  <andythenorth> :P
20:30:58  <frosch123> hmm, remove landscaping? :p
20:31:02  <andythenorth> ha
20:31:10  <andythenorth> that would hurt my game style :)
20:31:16  <planetmaker> well, one kinda can do that already. To some degree
20:31:30  <frosch123> i think most modern games do not support landscaping
20:31:35  <frosch123> but only tunneling and foundations
20:31:39  <frosch123> to some limited amount
20:31:48  <andythenorth> minecraft? o_O
20:31:55  * andythenorth doesn’t play many games tbh
20:32:26  <frosch123> i don't think "landscaping" fits into the minecraft category
20:33:01  * andythenorth considers trying a game with self-imposed no landscaping rule
20:33:02  <frosch123> can you landscape in todays' simcity? or train fever?
20:33:05  <andythenorth> dunno
20:33:11  <andythenorth> not in Railroad Tycoon
20:33:15  <frosch123> i only saw bridges, tunnels and foundations
20:33:20  <frosch123> but no manual hills
20:34:03  <frosch123> and certainly no hill flattening or sea flooding
20:34:32  <frosch123> i.e. the landscape is static except for where tracks are
20:35:32  <andythenorth> interesting
20:35:50  <andythenorth> how about landscaping, but only 1 level above or below original grade?
20:38:49  <planetmaker> yes... would increase the challange in some places
20:41:46  * andythenorth has run out of removal ideas
20:41:52  <andythenorth> did I mention trams?
20:43:02  <peter1138> that would ruin copy & paste
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20:46:07  <andythenorth> just remove that :)
20:46:11  <andythenorth> perhaps not :P
20:49:52  <andythenorth> frosch123: remove station walking? o_O
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20:51:52  <frosch123> one could reduce the incoming for the distance from train wagon to industry
20:52:01  <frosch123> but we already removed vehicle income
20:52:03  <frosch123> so, crap :p
20:52:54  <frosch123> i.e. a feeder truck from industry to station platform should be cheaper than using the station spread for transport
20:53:13  <frosch123> possibly needs trucks on stations
20:53:24  <andythenorth> ?
20:53:46  <frosch123> cargo is not stored in the station sign, but on single platforms or even tiles
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20:53:54  <frosch123> you can use trucks to move cargo to platforms
20:54:08  <frosch123> or pay for expensive automatic transport within station spread
20:54:32  <andythenorth> interesting
20:54:51  <frosch123> whenever the game does something automatically for you
20:55:01  <andythenorth> would also unintentionally improve the display of cargo at stations (except we’re deleting newgrf) :)
20:55:01  <frosch123> there should be the option to do it better with micro management
20:55:19  <frosch123> i think that holds for everything in the game: signalling, routing, cargo distribuition
20:56:00  <frosch123> automatic is easy mode, manual adjustments are advanced mode
20:56:13  <andythenorth> like a camera :P
20:56:30  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> you lose money if you fail to provide the capacity <-- that is how i think subsidies should work
20:57:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you get 60 months exclusive rights, if you transport <X> during that time, you get paid, otherwise you lose money
20:57:20  <frosch123> whenever there was something that could not be controlled correctly in ottd, someone added some automatic to solve it
20:57:40  <andythenorth> except
20:57:46  <andythenorth> that’s hard to do well :P
20:57:52  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i always wanted to micromanage approach loops on airports
20:57:56  <andythenorth> but it avoids user interface design
20:58:10  <frosch123> like pbs to replace detailed signalling/routing, cdist to replace fractional transfer orders
20:58:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but the timetabling was not fine enough
20:58:22  <andythenorth> also the trend to larger maps tends towards automation
20:58:29  <planetmaker> then we need to allow afd88 the polyline track tool. And the other one with multi-tracks, too ;)
20:58:35  <andythenorth> because I have 10,000 trains :(
20:58:36  <frosch123> timetabling to replace programmable orders
20:58:45  <planetmaker> and actually... they make sense
20:59:03  <frosch123> polyline is nice, yes
20:59:07  * andythenorth would sooner have a 100 year game on a 256x256 map :P
20:59:17  <planetmaker> we should probably tell him...
20:59:32  <frosch123> multitrack is not quite for me
20:59:48  <frosch123> it's along the copy&paste stuff, it has no purpose on interesting maps
21:00:03  <andythenorth> I just spent 75 years making one spine route work on this map :P
21:00:03  <andythenorth>,%2007-02-2050%20export.png
21:00:13  <andythenorth> maybe I’m just bad at train networks, dunno
21:00:22  <andythenorth> but Busy Bee kept wanting stuff added :P
21:00:22  <Eddi|zuHause> multitrack tool will only mean that i always pick the wrong track tile to extend
21:00:33  <Eddi|zuHause> so the other track is on the wrong side
21:02:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: why does this screenshot look so distorted?
21:02:39  <frosch123> anyway, to finish my point. i don't think automatics make good gameplay
21:02:48  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i do
21:02:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: compressed to make it smaller
21:02:54  <frosch123> there should always be a micromanagent option
21:02:55  <andythenorth> it was silly size
21:03:07  <andythenorth> frosch123: +1
21:03:19  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, but there should always also exist an atomatic option
21:03:24  * andythenorth is now micro-managing cdist :P
21:03:25  <frosch123> same for airports. the newgrf statemachine spec makes an interesting challenge for the newgrf author to design their favorite airport
21:03:38  <planetmaker> :) true. But not for the player
21:03:46  <andythenorth> too many features for authors :P
21:03:50  <andythenorth> except the ones I asked for
21:03:51  <frosch123> but it is as boring to gameplay as placing a fixed 16x16 object that always looks the same
21:03:52  <andythenorth> they’re great
21:03:52  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: include the airport minigame into grfcodec ;)
21:04:08  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: or the game, for that matter
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21:05:13  <andythenorth> frosch123: after my last few games, I’m convinced the fun is cramming routes into the terrain
21:05:30  <andythenorth> not pissing about making pseudo economic choices about which vehicle to use and such
21:05:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: that has always also been my goal :)
21:06:17  <frosch123> thus mountainious maps, and silicon valley
21:06:52  <andythenorth> yup
21:07:05  <frosch123> the goal of silicon valley is actually how i mostly play
21:07:46  <andythenorth> my last map had only one of each major processing industry
21:07:57  <andythenorth> defacto, similar result :P
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21:08:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never used silicon valley
21:09:04  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i rarely ever get to play with cargos, as passengers are trumping everything
21:09:31  <Eddi|zuHause> passengers are IMBA!
21:09:42  <frosch123> i never liked pax, because they are bidirectional
21:10:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i always liked pax since i played paxdest
21:10:00  <frosch123> transporting something back after you transported it to some place never made sense to me :p
21:10:36  <Eddi|zuHause> before that i found pax incredibly boring and stupid
21:10:41  <frosch123> well, the only interesting thing i see about cdist is that it increases the network load over time, by making cargo stay longer on board
21:10:49  <frosch123> but that likely only works for pax
21:11:37  <frosch123> so, well, yes, cdist for pax :)
21:12:06  <andythenorth> I don’t like to criticise cdist :|
21:12:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, cargodist works best on passengers, and worst on goods/food
21:12:22  <andythenorth> but it has rather a lot of user visible settings, for something that only automates transfers
21:12:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it makes other cargos easier to transfer, but may have side effects
21:13:56  <andythenorth> you just have to change route building
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21:14:20  <andythenorth> one pickup station per destination
21:14:34  <Eddi|zuHause> no. one destination per cargo
21:14:36  <andythenorth> then station rating takes care of distribution, and cdist does the transfer
21:14:38  <frosch123> maybe we should rename it
21:14:49  <frosch123> "cargo distribution" -> "cargo-based pathfinder" :p
21:14:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: nah that is totally incompatible with GS like Busy Bee
21:15:01  <andythenorth> my method works
21:15:29  <andythenorth> and it increases the challenge interestingly, because more stations have to be crammed in around an industry
21:15:35  <andythenorth> instead of one mega station, which is trivial
21:15:39  <Eddi|zuHause> well, one destination per linkgraph connected component
21:15:44  <andythenorth> exactly
21:16:13  <Eddi|zuHause> but you run into the problem of only 2 stations getting cargo
21:16:35  <andythenorth> ah
21:16:40  <andythenorth> is that a thing that happens?
21:17:04  <andythenorth> I had unexpected vehicles-waiting when I had 5 or so pickup stations
21:17:07  <andythenorth> all with very high ratings
21:17:15  <andythenorth> and cargo waiting at other stations
21:17:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, only the 2 stations with highest rating get cargo. so unless the rating drops because of cargo waiting, the other stations never get cargo
21:17:56  <andythenorth> ach
21:18:01  <andythenorth> my new method is totally flawed :(
21:18:07  <andythenorth> I thought I’d defeated cdist :(
21:18:25  <planetmaker> I think that's a limit which also could go. Or the logic behind distribution onto stations could use a change
21:18:50  <andythenorth> I assumed it was a bug :P
21:19:01  <frosch123> yup, reduce station spread, and add truck transport to single industries :p
21:19:15  <frosch123> the problem does not exist with zero station catchment area :p
21:19:34  <frosch123> give all industries built-in truck stops
21:19:36  <andythenorth> how do the trucks pickup from the industry? o_O
21:19:38  <andythenorth> oh
21:19:39  <andythenorth> that
21:19:47  <andythenorth> we had a hack for that in FIRS :P
21:19:54  <andythenorth> gaps in buildings :P
21:19:58  <andythenorth> failed
21:19:58  <planetmaker> hm, interesting idea, frosch123
21:20:28  <frosch123> but rv capacity actually must be able to serve a single industry's output :p
21:20:42  <andythenorth> that is
21:20:45  <andythenorth> could be done :P
21:20:51  <frosch123> usually that has been a fail part of those "gaps in building"
21:20:58  <frosch123> a signle tile station cannot handle the load
21:21:06  <andythenorth> make RV stations like depots :P
21:21:12  <andythenorth> probably not a direction you like :)
21:21:35  <andythenorth> infinite capacity, constrained throughput rate
21:21:54  <andythenorth> ‘upgrade this industry’
21:21:57  <andythenorth> :P
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21:22:14  <frosch123> make rv slow, high capacity and expensive
21:22:23  <andythenorth> I believe somebody tried that once
21:22:26  <andythenorth> :P
21:22:28  <frosch123> so they work only as feeder
21:22:43  <andythenorth> add the conveyor / pipe transport type
21:22:48  <andythenorth> but also slow and expensive
21:22:51  <frosch123> the high capacity makes them able to move cargo to station
21:23:07  <frosch123> but the slow speed and high cost makes them unable to turn in a profit
21:23:08  <andythenorth> sounds like a tram :P
21:23:12  <frosch123> which must be done by the fast train
21:23:22  <frosch123> but the fast train is unable to pickup the cargo directly from the industry
21:23:41  <andythenorth> is this how factorio works?
21:23:47  * andythenorth googles
21:24:00  <frosch123> factorio has 4 transport methods
21:24:06  <frosch123> belts, which are awesome
21:24:21  <frosch123> pipelines which are boring, essentially like canals :p
21:24:55  <frosch123> trains which i haven't figured out how to use correctly, and i am currently thinking they only work at #coop scale
21:25:37  <frosch123> and flying robots, which are like aircraft. too easy to be fun
21:27:28  <andythenorth> hmm, there is OS X version
21:28:07  <andythenorth> ach /me should go to sleep
21:28:52  <andythenorth> did someone make a copy of the deletion roadmap then? ^^^^^ o_O
21:29:46  <frosch123> just delete everything
21:29:52  <frosch123> then add back what you want to keep
21:30:02  <frosch123> that way you do not miss something to remove
21:31:04  <andythenorth> oh I actually have to run around in factorio?
21:31:24  <frosch123> it is also possibly to play without character
21:31:27  <andythenorth> hmm inventory and stuff
21:31:34  * andythenorth is not very good at this kind of game :P
21:31:43  <frosch123> not sure what method is easier to play
21:31:44  <andythenorth> I have enough trouble remembering my RL phone and keys
21:31:56  <frosch123> with a character you are blocked by inftrastructure
21:32:30  <andythenorth> the alternative is freeplay?
21:32:36  * andythenorth will try more tomorrow
21:32:47  <andythenorth> I tried Kerbal for a bit, but couldn’t work it
21:33:04  <andythenorth> Euro Truck Simulator 2 has awful graphics, so that was disappointing
21:33:17  <andythenorth> I had a bridge building game, but couldn’t complete level 12 or such
21:33:21  <andythenorth> and 2048 is over :P
21:33:24  * andythenorth needs a new game
21:33:44  <andythenorth> also bed
21:33:45  <andythenorth> bye
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21:35:10  <frosch123> hmm, bridge builder... that was a thing in 2001 :p
21:35:26  <frosch123> hmm, likely even somewhat earlier
21:40:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i played bridge builder around 2001, but none of the updated/remade versions that came later
21:40:29  <frosch123> i also tried the first 3d version as a demo
21:40:36  <frosch123> but it did not convince me
21:40:37  <Eddi|zuHause> what ever happened to Moorhuhn?
21:40:54  <frosch123> it got replaced with candy crush
21:41:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that was probably the first viral game i came across
21:41:18  <frosch123> after solitaire?
21:41:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that wasn't exactly viral, in the sense that it was spread by "mouth-to-mouth"
21:42:02  <frosch123> anyway, today people play on their smartphones at work, no longer on the office computers :p
21:42:02  <Eddi|zuHause> it was just there, so everybody played it
21:42:03  <Hiddenfunstuff> how bout that space pinball found from Win XP?
21:42:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: same story
21:42:35  <frosch123> i liked the epic pinball from 1993 or so
21:42:46  <frosch123> no other pinball was as interesting after that
21:43:02  <frosch123> "epic megagames pinball" or so
21:43:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember how the pinball game i played was called
21:43:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the first game ever that i remember playing was sokoban
21:43:40  <frosch123>
21:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and a version of tetris that went way too fast unless you pressed the turbo button
21:44:16  <frosch123> wow, i guessed the date correctly :o
21:44:18  <frosch123> didn't expect that
21:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, it was definitely not that
21:45:52  <Eddi|zuHause> also, it was probably earlier than that
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21:51:54  <frosch123> <- there was also that one
21:52:01  <frosch123> cleary written with borland stuff
21:52:05  <frosch123> and seriously buggy
21:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that wasn't it either
21:52:45  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i have no clue what to search for
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21:53:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and i have no floppy disk drive to comb through old disks
21:53:36  <frosch123> well, that one was from 1989
21:53:46  <frosch123> those two are the oldest ones i know
21:54:21  <peter1138> gotta love those borland fonts
21:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it had a guy with a long nose on the title screen
21:55:46  <peter1138>
21:56:19  <peter1138> oh that url :(
21:56:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe i'm totally mixing up memories there
21:57:39  <frosch123> egavga.bgi is only about 5kb :p
21:58:17  <frosch123> goth.chr is 8.5kb
21:58:57  <Eddi|zuHause> first time someone showed me a program displaying gothic font, it blew my mind
21:59:47  <Eddi|zuHause> it was actually really simple, i think it showed "hello world" in 3 sizes (erasing the previous one before displaying the next)
21:59:55  <frosch123> likely same here, but i mostly remember the laserjet 4 which could print with dom casual
22:00:08  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what that is
22:00:21  <frosch123> hmm, laserjet 4 is too new, maybe laserjet 2
22:00:23  <Eddi|zuHause> wingdings was fun to play with for about 10 minutes
22:00:27  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: comic sans, but oldschool
22:00:56  <frosch123> those were postscript fonts built into the printer
22:01:02  <frosch123> you could actually not display them on screen
22:01:28  <frosch123> dos word 5 supported them, textmode on screen, fancy bold hand writing when printing
22:01:32  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i recently read an article that talked about how comic sans was a perfectly acceptable font, and when it became "the most evil thing ever invented" it was already on decline
22:02:24  <Eddi|zuHause> well, dos wordperfect had a mode where you could display a graphical version of the page, showing the layout and fonts and stuff
22:02:24  <frosch123> <- well, it's the grand father of comic sans or so
22:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but you couldn't edit in that mode, that WYSIWYG stuff was a buzzword for windows
22:03:38  <frosch123> i think dos word also had a graphical preview, but it did not know the printer fonts :p
22:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, in wordperfect, you could select a printer driver, and then it would change the selection of fonts available
22:04:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if it knew all the fonts of all the printers ever invented
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22:13:39  <Wolf01> 'night
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