Log for #openttd on 18th July 2015:
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05:18:39  <andythenorth> bird of Pikka
05:18:44  <andythenorth> you haz started a kicker
05:20:15  <Alberth> moin
05:20:37  <Alberth> I hope he already knows :)
05:21:32  <andythenorth> pictures and everything
05:27:24  <andythenorth> Alberth: sometimes you are getting up very early it seems
05:27:29  <andythenorth> even earlier than me :o
05:29:05  * andythenorth backs the thing
05:29:06  <Alberth> yeah, trying another day-rythm, get up around 6 am
05:29:43  <Alberth> which is easy I am awake at that time already :)
05:33:31  <andythenorth> my children are experimenting with 4.50 am
05:33:34  <andythenorth> maybe it’s a life hack
05:37:38  <Alberth> I did manage a bit after 5, but not before it, so far :)
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05:45:09  <andythenorth> oh dear
05:45:14  <andythenorth> factorio seems quite addictive
05:45:18  <andythenorth> even though it’s quite ugly
05:56:42  <Pikka> morning all :)
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06:03:53  <Pikka> thanks andythenorth :)
06:12:16  <andythenorth> np
06:15:04  * andythenorth got bored of factorio
06:15:08  <andythenorth> such low attention span :P
06:16:42  <Alberth> :)
06:17:33  <andythenorth> UI is clunky
06:17:36  <andythenorth> and it’s not pretty
06:20:32  <andythenorth> Alberth: btw, you missed an opportunity to propose feature removals :)
06:41:25  <Alberth> :o    I hope you filled in for me :)
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06:47:12  <andythenorth> see the logs :)
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07:09:06  <Terkhen> good morning
07:09:58  <Rubidium> bonjour
07:10:05  <sla_ro|master> Hi
07:10:08  <sla_ro|master> morning :P
07:45:36  * andythenorth wonders about hiding drive-in roadstops in the UI
07:46:09  <andythenorth> probably something related to ShowRVStationPicker
07:48:10  <andythenorth> hmm
07:49:12  <andythenorth> ha ha
07:49:16  <andythenorth> I’ve disabled the widgets :)
07:49:22  <andythenorth> that was easy
07:49:27  <andythenorth> did it in a silly way though
07:49:54  <andythenorth> I’ve replaced ‘_cur_roadtype == ROADTYPE_TRAM’ in some if statements with ‘true’ :P
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07:51:20  <Wolf01> hi o/
07:51:26  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
07:52:36  <planetmaker> moin
07:53:01  * andythenorth proposes to move ‘enable drive-in roadstops’ to a cfg file setting
07:53:06  <andythenorth> and then remove it in future :P
07:57:34  <Wolf01> you mean "drive trough"?
07:57:40  <Wolf01> *+h
07:58:55  <andythenorth> nope :)
07:58:57  <andythenorth> drive-in
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08:07:12  <Wolf01> having 6 sealed lego sets and no space to put them after they are built is a struggle :(
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08:11:02  <Wolf01> where is that setting now? I only have the drive-through one, and just the ownership limitations for it
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08:13:28  <Alberth> using trams?
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08:14:35  <Wolf01> maybe
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08:25:00  <andythenorth> Wolf01: the setting doesn’t exist yet :)
08:25:15  * andythenorth proposes adding it, and hiding it away in .cfg :P
08:25:20  <andythenorth> then turning off drive-in stops
08:25:32  <andythenorth> it’s an example of a boring choice
08:25:51  <andythenorth> drive-in stops have absolutely no benefit
08:25:56  <Wolf01> indeed
08:26:12  <andythenorth> they don’t permit articulated vehicles, and allegedly they perform worse than drive-through
08:26:21  <Wolf01> I still use them at the very beginning
08:26:26  <andythenorth> the only reason for them is ‘because TTD'
08:27:02  <andythenorth> they also enforce odd design choices on newgrfs
08:27:30  <andythenorth> a non-articulated vehicle model can never be superseded by an articulated model
08:27:37  <andythenorth> bit weird
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08:50:10  <andythenorth> o_O ?
08:52:02  <Alberth> wrong icon in the cursor :)
08:52:56  <andythenorth> ha
08:53:00  <andythenorth> patches are never simple :P
08:53:08  <andythenorth> I’d have to redraw that?
08:53:27  <andythenorth> we’d never remove these stops
08:53:37  <andythenorth> because two players might complain about it in forums
08:53:41  <andythenorth> as many as three even
08:53:49  <andythenorth> :)
08:53:53  <andythenorth> but /me can dream
08:57:04  <Alberth> tbh, I quite like them, they very easy to use
08:59:11  <andythenorth> compared to drive-through? o_O
08:59:50  <Alberth> with driver-through you need to make a circle
09:00:02  <andythenorth> because otherwise it looks ugly?
09:00:27  <Alberth> it does tome
09:00:41  <andythenorth> +1
09:00:51  <andythenorth> the drive-in stops look much better
09:00:59  <andythenorth> and make neater stations
09:01:02  <Alberth> drive-in also has no problem with loaded vehicles getting blocked
09:01:14  <andythenorth> depends how many you have adjacent
09:01:52  <andythenorth> Alberth: you only use base set or ogfx RVs?
09:02:15  <Alberth> mostly baseset I think
09:02:24  <andythenorth> hmm
09:02:34  <andythenorth> Pikka: your ‘articulated’ vehicles aren’t actually articulated?
09:02:49  <Alberth> can't usually be bothered to load a RV set
09:03:02  * andythenorth wonders if articulated vehicles are the problem
09:03:06  <andythenorth> maybe delete those
09:03:21  <Alberth> although your road hog is nice, with the trams
09:03:59  <andythenorth> maybe all trucks should be 1 unit, like original game
09:04:17  <andythenorth> that also solves overtaking
09:04:27  <Alberth> longer vehicles make more diversity, which is nice
09:05:13  <Alberth> but eg loaded vehicle blocked behind a loading vehicle should just try to overtake
09:05:21  <andythenorth> eventually they’ll wormhole
09:05:33  <andythenorth> I think
09:05:48  <Alberth> they do afaik, but you want to avoid that
09:06:09  <andythenorth> something is awry with current RVs
09:06:16  <andythenorth> it’s not ‘just the design, live with it’
09:06:22  <andythenorth> it’s fractured somehow
09:06:55  <andythenorth> designing an RV set is ridiculously hard
09:07:11  <Rubidium> andythenorth: regarding your question of yesterday; the removal "graphics" also includes reconsidering better scaling of vehicles and the likes
09:07:39  <andythenorth> lengths and so on?
09:07:40  <Rubidium> i.e. get rid of the lengthening/shortening in corners, bridges being lower than vehicles, ...
09:08:08  <andythenorth> :)
09:08:12  <Rubidium> and maybe even increase the "default" length
09:08:18  <andythenorth> to...?
09:08:21  <andythenorth> 16/8?
09:08:24  <andythenorth> 12/8?
09:08:27  <andythenorth> 10/8?
09:08:28  <andythenorth> :P
09:08:56  <Rubidium> plus probably some method to give a more 3D bounding box of the vehicle to prevent loads of glitches
09:09:31  <Rubidium> the latter would, in essence, make it possible to not care much about vehicle length at all. Just provide an appropriate bounding box
09:10:02  <andythenorth> no more crazy Iron Horse 3-part train wagons
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09:24:54  <Pikka> yoyo
09:25:03  <andythenorth> walk the dog
09:25:04  <Pikka> my trucks aren't articulated, yes
09:25:13  <andythenorth> maybe that is the way forward
09:25:21  <Pikka> optional road trains with additional trailers will be
09:25:56  * andythenorth is finding that an RV set is quite rage-quity
09:26:07  <andythenorth> not surprising there is only one good one complete
09:27:19  <Rubidium> oh, andy... dropping all graphics and NewGRF also allows us to make all climates available on the same map
09:28:56  <Rubidium> yay for going from toyland to desert via arctic ;)
09:29:16  <Pikka> keeping it simple is definitely helping me, andy
09:31:53  <andythenorth> Pikka: no trams? o_O
09:32:10  <Pikka> yes trams.
09:32:44  <Pikka> at the moment only passenger trams planned though
09:32:45  <andythenorth> trams are appalling
09:33:05  <Pikka> people seem to like them, so I'll add them and not fret over them too much :)
09:33:34  <andythenorth> do all your truck models go the same speed?
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09:34:24  <Pikka> not quite, but I only have one of each truck type per generation, I don't have seperate fast/big/powerful/cheap/etc classes.
09:35:00  <andythenorth> me also
09:35:09  <andythenorth> but eh, yours aren’t articulated
09:35:14  <andythenorth> so you can set whatever speed you like
09:35:27  * andythenorth realises
09:35:45  <andythenorth> with articulated, there is no point setting speeds differently on different models
09:36:24  <andythenorth> slowest vehicle sets the speed of all other vehicles
09:39:23  <Pikka> slight differences within generations, c.5mph.
09:40:16  <Pikka> trams and buses are the faster/slower outliers, coaches are about the same speed as trucks.
09:45:16  * andythenorth has about 10mph, some things are more express than others
09:45:27  <andythenorth> hmm also log trucks and dump trucks are much slower
09:45:41  <andythenorth> and that blocks everything else
09:46:01  <Pikka> overtaking definitely helps
09:46:38  <Pikka> also, as with the trains, most of my vehicles are underpowered and don't spend all of their time cruising at top speed, especially if it's hilly... which means power makes a bit of difference too.
09:48:07  <andythenorth> same for Road Hog
09:48:14  <andythenorth> only by accident :P
09:48:35  <andythenorth> capacity is double RL, but I didn’t double HP :P
09:51:56  <Pikka> my capacities are tiny
09:54:17  <Pikka> except passengers
09:56:54  <Pikka> seems to work reasonably well
10:01:30  <andythenorth> tiny = ?
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10:09:59  <Pikka> 15-25 for box trucks
10:10:12  <Pikka> 10-20 for flat/hopper/tanker/etc
10:11:01  <Pikka> plenty for low-production industries or short transfers, but not challenging trains for main-game status ;)
10:15:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the drive-in stations work better for pickup/transfer stations if you use "full load"
10:15:39  <Eddi|zuHause> provided you use non-articulated trucks
10:17:03  <andythenorth> time for a Road Hog redesign
10:18:08  <andythenorth> and another redraw :(
10:23:18  <andythenorth> no road trains eh
10:24:33  <andythenorth> ugh
10:24:42  <andythenorth> if it looks like an articulated truck, but doesn’t bend
10:24:43  <andythenorth>
10:24:47  <andythenorth> is that stupid?
10:27:05  <peter1138> hello
10:27:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand what you mean
10:28:00  <andythenorth> do I have to draw new sprites, when I remove all the articulated trucks?
10:28:37  <andythenorth> the sprites look like RL articulated trucks, but will be a single unit in game
10:28:47  <andythenorth> is that dumb?
10:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that is stupid, yes.
10:28:57  <andythenorth> ok
10:29:03  <andythenorth> thanks
10:30:08  * andythenorth has designed Road Hog completely 100% wrong
10:30:13  <andythenorth> it’s embarassing :P
10:30:22  <andythenorth> the trams are single-unit, the trucks are articulated
10:31:56  <andythenorth> should be the other way round
10:32:48  <andythenorth> time to abandon it I think :D
10:32:58  <andythenorth> that’s two RV sets I’ve given up on
10:33:06  <andythenorth> Pikka: how many RV sets have you failed at? o_O
10:34:38  <Pikka> well this one's called HOVS 75, which is approximately how many iterations the design has been through :)
10:35:15  <peter1138> And everything will just use LV4 instead.
10:37:01  <andythenorth> the one with the nudey pictures in it?
10:37:10  <andythenorth> RVs suck ass
10:46:26  <frosch123> for 0 you can get a complete custom trainset
10:46:56  <Pikka> nope... for 0 you can get a new base set, house, industry, and vehicle newgrfs.
10:47:06  <Pikka> the custom train set is a little bonus :)
10:47:24  <frosch123> well, i guess it is supposed to say custom train, not custom train set
10:47:45  <Pikka> "train set" as in locomotive and matching carriages
10:48:37  <frosch123> anyway, don't put sponsors on the newspaper screen :) otherwise we get conflicts when trashing that picture :p
10:49:42  <Pikka> mmhm :)
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10:57:00  <andythenorth> how much does a decent RV set cost? o_O
10:57:21  <frosch123> 0 per vehicle
10:57:22  <andythenorth> I have spent weeks on Road Hog, and I could freelance my time for £300 / day :P
10:57:30  <andythenorth> and give it to someone else
10:57:35  <andythenorth> to make newgrfs :P
10:57:39  <frosch123> limited to 32 vehicles
10:57:57  <andythenorth> that’s less than a month of work for me
10:58:06  * andythenorth can’t actually do freelance work, no time
10:59:10  <Pikka> andy: I suppose an xxxtreeme level backer reward could be negotiable. :P
10:59:40  <andythenorth> I could just wait for you to finish it
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11:01:13  <Pikka> if pineapple rvs fits your requirements, sure. :)
11:01:33  <andythenorth> ‘requirements’ is a moot point with RVs
11:01:48  <andythenorth> at this point, ‘FIRS support’ and ‘works’ would be enough
11:01:57  <andythenorth> maybe OGFX+ RVs will do
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11:50:52  <Terkhen> it doesn't do anything fancy, but unless someone did crazy stuff with cargos it should still work :P
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12:48:44  <Pikka> goodnight all :) round me up some more kickstarter backers while I sleep!
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13:23:49  <andythenorth>  /me is confused
13:24:01  <andythenorth> which is the best type of roadstop?
13:24:14  <glevans2> one with free food
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13:24:41  <andythenorth> finally, a simple answer
13:25:07  <glevans2> hey, I am a simple person
13:25:24  <glevans2> one with free beer is better though
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13:33:29  <andythenorth> is it just a meaningless question?
13:33:34  <andythenorth> are both roadstop types crippled?
13:40:12  <Alberth> for some value of 'crippled', yes
13:40:51  <Alberth> not sure if that's a problem though. If there is one without flaws, what's the use of the other ones?
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13:44:34  <andythenorth> well
13:44:43  <andythenorth> it makes set design hard :)
13:45:12  <andythenorth> I used articulated trucks in Road Hog on the basis that drive-through stops are preferable
13:45:28  <andythenorth> but that seems like a mistake, because drive-in stops are also preferable
13:46:53  <frosch123> are they?
13:47:01  <Alberth> any particular reason you want to have both?
13:47:31  <frosch123> rv are for short distance high capacity
13:47:37  <andythenorth> well, if trucks can only be single unit that changes the set design somewhat
13:47:42  <frosch123> so, something that allows quick enter, load, leave, looks like the main point
13:47:43  <andythenorth> no trailer trucks
13:47:48  <frosch123> so, drive-in are kind of useless
13:48:19  <frosch123> you should do it like pikka :)
13:48:30  <frosch123> make a good set, don't care about game limitations wrt. overtaking
13:48:42  <andythenorth> I could just wait for pikka
13:48:44  <frosch123> just like pikka does not care about length of vehicles on diagonals
13:49:34  <andythenorth> frosch123: do trucks like this look stupid if not articulated?
13:50:12  <andythenorth> they’re 8/8 max afaict
13:50:19  <frosch123> yes, esp those with a long front part
13:50:40  <andythenorth> the ones longer than 8/8 would have to be changed
13:51:16  <frosch123> did you decide for rv capacity yet?
13:51:19  <andythenorth> yes
13:51:23  <andythenorth> 30-40t for RVs
13:51:29  <andythenorth> 60-120t for trams
13:51:42  <andythenorth> 60t-120t for ‘off-highway’ RVs
13:51:50  <andythenorth> 20t for express vans
13:52:02  <andythenorth> play-tested multiple games, works
13:52:25  <andythenorth> (for trucks; trams are being changed now)
13:52:51  <andythenorth> is there any way to empirically prove which roadstop is best?
13:53:15  <frosch123> check how much cargo you can transfer from nidustry to rail station
13:53:20  <frosch123> with as little space as possible
13:53:25  <frosch123> (road station space)
13:53:55  <andythenorth> are the optimum road layouts known?
13:54:00  <andythenorth> to prevent blocking?
13:54:08  * andythenorth has no idea about this stuff
13:54:12  <frosch123> a T shape
13:54:20  <andythenorth> for both types?
13:54:27  <frosch123> road approaches drive-through orthogonal do driving direction
13:54:27  * andythenorth looks in the wiki
13:54:42  <frosch123> and then can take equal-cost turns left or right to enter road stop from both sides
13:54:56  <andythenorth> if I play long enough, I’ll learn this stuff
13:54:59  <andythenorth> it’s only been 10 years
13:56:41  * andythenorth wonders if ‘not having to redraw the sprites, yet again’ is the best heuristic for the set design
13:56:50  * andythenorth hates this set
13:57:11  <andythenorth> RVs are the absolute prime example of non-interesting choices
14:01:32  <frosch123> <- with that layout rv evenly distribute on both drive through lines
14:01:42  <frosch123> which gives maximum throughput
14:02:13  <frosch123> important is that the distance to both entry sides is the same
14:02:29  <frosch123> and that the roadstop does not immediately start after the junction, so rv are less likely to block the junction
14:02:56  <frosch123> it does not work for too many rows of roadstops though
14:03:08  <frosch123> else the ones in the front are always nearer than those at the rear
14:03:15  <frosch123> even with roadstop-in-use penalty
14:03:36  <andythenorth> is there an equivalent for drive-in stops?
14:03:40  <andythenorth> although tbh
14:03:57  <andythenorth> redrawing the sprites is unappealing
14:04:05  <frosch123> i don't think road layout makes any difference for drive-in
14:04:11  <frosch123> there is no choice about drive-in
14:04:17  <frosch123> rv can enter from one side only
14:04:22  <andythenorth> pikka is hedging by offering trucks with and without trailers :P
14:04:23  <frosch123> you cannot make them longer or similar
14:04:38  <andythenorth> k ta
14:12:59  * andythenorth unborks trams
14:13:02  <andythenorth> they look better now
14:22:02  * andythenorth considered chibi trams, but too much redrawing
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14:38:09  <andythenorth> note to self
14:38:17  <andythenorth> making ~symmetrical sprites is fun
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15:56:58  <andythenorth> teaching the 5 year old about the redraw regions :P
15:58:54  <V453000> XD
16:04:56  <andythenorth> is ‘repainted’ enough difference between old and new tram models?
16:05:10  <andythenorth> with 10mph speed difference and 50% HP boost?
16:05:18  <andythenorth> otherwise visually identical :P
16:09:42  <Alberth> if you don't have graphic variations of the same model, that should be sufficient, imho
16:10:42  <andythenorth> thanks
16:10:45  <andythenorth> helps :)
16:11:00  * andythenorth trying to decide tram capacity
16:11:10  <andythenorth> has to be cleanly divisible by 2 and 3
16:11:14  <andythenorth> currently 90t
16:11:26  <andythenorth> doesn’t really give trams any advantage over trucks though
16:11:37  <andythenorth> two 40t trucks fit in the same number of tiles and are much faster
16:11:53  * andythenorth wonders if 120t is too high
16:12:29  <Alberth> 102?
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16:14:29  <Alberth> 90 96 102 108 114 120  to be precise
16:16:03  <andythenorth> where are the nice neat 5s or 10s :D
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16:21:01  <andythenorth> 100t will do
16:21:07  <andythenorth> bit boringly round though
16:23:51  <frosch123> switch to imperial tons
16:25:13  <andythenorth> HEQS is quite ‘realistic’ on capacities
16:25:36  <andythenorth> but uses the imperial, long, or metric ton value from RL, according to how much capacity I wanted in game :P
16:26:05  <andythenorth> 110t looks ok
16:26:15  <andythenorth> bit visually implausible
16:26:17  <andythenorth> but eh
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16:59:52  <andythenorth> there is a standard gauge tram tracks grf
17:00:02  <andythenorth> I am not recommending it
17:01:00  <Alberth> ok :)
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17:50:03  <Garfield222> hi, could you tell me how to make scenarion, with same group of buildings, like it this image
17:51:22  <Garfield222> I mean , when I create a town, I can only expand it. I grows and create different kinds of buildings. No I dea how to grow city and keep same buildings.
17:51:55  <Wolf01> patience, you need to demolish buildings you don't want and expand again
17:52:29  <Garfield222> :-O ............. noooooooooooo
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17:54:16  <Wolf01> or use newobjects if you find a building set... but they don't count as real houses
17:55:27  <Garfield222> are the no cheats for this purpose ?
17:56:50  <Garfield222> with delete/expand method it will take ages :-)
18:17:24  <Alberth> improve town building in the scenario editor?
18:20:17  <Garfield222> what is "improve town building" ?
18:20:32  <Garfield222> scenario is without any newgrf
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18:32:52  <andythenorth> sorted the trams
18:33:36  <andythenorth> 110t
18:33:42  <andythenorth> 16/8 long
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18:35:44  <andythenorth> (this is impossible to constrain due to newgrf mix, but...)
18:36:30  <andythenorth> is it annoying or not when a bunch of new vehicle models (across all transport types) are made available within a small number of years
18:36:33  <andythenorth> ?
18:37:52  <andythenorth> with my sets, 1900-1910, 1930-1940, 1950-1960 seem to have a lot of model introductions
18:45:26  <Alberth> I typically click yes, and then don't care
18:45:44  <Alberth> tbh I'd like to have an "off" option
18:46:52  <andythenorth> for exclusive previews?
18:47:00  <andythenorth> or for all new vehicle models?
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19:27:53  <Alberth> exclusive preview cannot be disabled, new model news is off-ish
19:28:17  <Alberth> ie when I need a new engine, or need a renew, I'll have a look :)
19:34:16  <andythenorth> so you don’t feel compelled to go replacing vehicles when a new one is released
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19:41:49  <Alberth> no, also not because reliability of new vehicle is too low
19:47:15  * andythenorth had forgotten about breakdowns :)
19:47:43  <andythenorth> perhaps I should set reliability values to something
19:47:44  <andythenorth> dunno
19:47:49  <andythenorth> nobody complains :P
19:49:40  <Alberth> otherwise you get whatever vehicle you copied from, I guess :)
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19:51:40  * andythenorth also
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23:35:31  <Wolf01> 'night
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