Log for #openttd on 23rd July 2015:
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00:00:27  *** acklayy [] has joined #openttd
00:00:42  <acklayy> Hey
00:00:46  <acklayy> Anyone here?
00:01:44  <acklayy> I have a general question, me and my buddy want to Play Together vs each other... but we can never find each other when trying to make a mulitplayer game?
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06:00:20  <ade> nmlc ERROR: "sprites/extra/extra-openttd-recolour.pnml", line 2: OTTD_RECOLOUR is not a valid sprite replacement type
06:00:20  <ade> Included from: "ogfxe_extra.pnml", line 25
06:00:55  <ade> Bugs?
06:01:08  <ade> opengfx error
06:03:18  <ade> compile the opengfx by nml0.3.1
06:04:46  <ade> that error appear.
06:08:09  <Supercheese> I don't think I've ever compiled ogfx before
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06:16:31  <ade> thanks
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07:02:38  <V453000> Pikka your thread got polluted by Baldys Boss XD
07:02:49  <Pikka> he's an insightful fellow
07:04:23  <V453000> without question
07:25:21  <planetmaker> ade, you need a newer NML. try 0.4.0 or newer
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07:52:37  <Zuu> Hello
07:52:44  <andythenorth> o/
07:53:40  <Zuu> I created a thread some 30 minutes ago. Perhaps a bit hidden in NewGRF developments forum. :-)
07:55:32  <andythenorth> Zuu: good thread :)
07:55:56  <andythenorth> I am away for a few weeks soon, I won’t be able to make a grf for this immediately
07:56:02  <andythenorth> McZapkie or someone else might
07:56:06  <Zuu> Maybe a bit lengthy, but I took the chance to also sumarize what has been done so far in one place.
07:56:22  <andythenorth> there are a few people active writing industry grfs at the moment
07:57:10  <Zuu> andythenorth: Yeah, you told me. Well let's see if anyone is interested.
07:57:12  * andythenorth would use the value in cb 29 to set a tile red / green / blue / yellow
07:57:55  <Zuu> Assuming that doesn't need the animation callback, it sounds good.
07:58:01  <andythenorth> it doesn’t
07:58:48  <ade> I'm working a NewGRF base on
08:01:30  <andythenorth> Zuu: the GS will set the bits in var 10?
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08:04:14  <planetmaker> o/
08:04:31  <planetmaker> intriguing patch series idea :)
08:05:03  <Zuu> Well at the moment the series is quite short :-)
08:05:25  <andythenorth> I can’t remember how to extract a var with nml when there’s no keyword for it
08:05:34  <andythenorth> var[0x00] ?
08:05:43  <andythenorth> with a bitmask and shift?
08:06:11  <andythenorth> having an industry push this permanent storage is trivial, planetmaker could write it for you in 5 mins :)
08:06:19  <Supercheese>
08:06:23  <andythenorth> I could do it in 10 mins, if I was a better programmer
08:07:08  <planetmaker> var 0x10 and 0x18 are extra_callback_info1 and extra_callback_info2
08:07:15  <andythenorth> ah
08:08:02  <andythenorth> so: random_prod_change: STORE_TEMP(extra_callback_info_1, 0x01);
08:08:03  <andythenorth> ?
08:08:22  <planetmaker> that's temporary storage, but yes
08:08:25  <andythenorth> oops
08:08:31  <planetmaker> you probably wanted STORE_PERM :)
08:08:38  <andythenorth> random_prod_change: STORE_PERM(extra_callback_info_1, 1)
08:08:50  <andythenorth> and registers can be accessed without hex afaict
08:09:20  <planetmaker> you do not need hex anywhere, also nowhere in nfo. In some places it's just more convenient
08:09:26  <andythenorth> I would recommend patching ogfx+ industries or such to do that
08:09:33  <planetmaker> a number is a number is a number. There are just ways to write it down :)
08:09:36  <andythenorth> it’s probably easier and faster to compile than FIRS
08:09:43  <planetmaker> probably, yes
08:09:49  * andythenorth must to work
08:09:52  <andythenorth> and also haircut
08:09:53  <planetmaker> can't right now, ^
08:09:54  <Zuu> And the permanent storage can be inspected by newgrf_developer_tools?
08:09:58  <andythenorth> yes
08:10:06  <andythenorth> there’s a grid of values in the UI for it
08:13:19  <andythenorth> I’m not sure whether just returning that STORE_PERM will give a valid cb result
08:13:36  <andythenorth> it might need to be in a switch chain, storing, and then giving a valid return value to the cb
08:13:50  * andythenorth bbl :)
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08:19:59  <planetmaker> yes, there needs to be some valid return value to the CB
08:20:02  <planetmaker> or should
08:20:06  <planetmaker> at CB_FAILED
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08:29:18  <Zuu> Currently the patch discards the value returned by NewGRF. With some work it is possible to rely it back to the GS. This happens eg. when a GS create some new object and get the ID of the object back through some sort of global variable where the new ID is stored so the GS API can pick it up later when the command returns, possible in a different tick than it was called.
08:31:36  <planetmaker> uh, I first have to untar the file to see tha patches? :D
08:31:57  <planetmaker> ah, that's the GS, sorry
08:32:31  <Zuu> It is only a 01.patch at the moment :-)
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09:57:47  <Pikka> well
09:58:17  <andythenorth> I agree
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14:22:00  <Terkhen> hello
14:22:06  <Zuu> Hello
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16:01:48  <Lantizia> Hey it's been a whilst since i've played and the 'difficulty options' are gone
16:02:04  <Lantizia> i can't see a way to turn off competitors - where is this?  it doesn't seem to be in the advanced settings
16:02:47  <Lantizia> hmm - ok think i've found max no. competitors in the AI/Game script bit - but after a little while into the game it still tries to make one :S
16:04:02  <frosch123> changing settings in main menu is different from changing settings in-game
16:04:09  <frosch123> main menu only affects new games
16:06:47  <Lantizia> ok - then new question... if I've downloaded a map... how can I start a new game on that map without using 'Play Scenarion'
16:06:54  <Lantizia> which seems to force the scenarios rules on me
16:09:30  <frosch123> load it in scenario editor and change the rules
16:10:36  <Lantizia> that seems - reeaally dumb
16:10:53  <Lantizia> i don't think even the original ttdlx had this issue
16:11:01  <Lantizia> you could just rename ss0's to sav's and they'd open
16:11:18  <frosch123> you can still do that
16:11:24  <frosch123> but that doesn't change the settings
16:12:15  <Lantizia> when i open it in the scenario editor - can I just tell it to use my default settings for new games? and save?
16:13:31  <Zuu> In the settings window, there is a filter to show only the settings that has a different value compared to your new game settings.
16:14:45  <Zuu> This filter is in the category drop down btw.
16:14:52  <Lantizia> yeah i've seen it before
16:15:01  <Lantizia> still means i have to rechoose everything though yes?
16:16:14  <Zuu> Unless there is a console command for it or some solution, I don't see, you have to go through the settings that show up with this filter and one by one change them so that they disappear form the list.
16:16:27  <frosch123> Lantizia: really, why are you using a scenario then?
16:16:39  <frosch123> if you only want the shape, you can also save it as heightmap
16:18:14  <Lantizia> frosch123, well i want the towns and roads  - etc.. not just shape
16:18:30  <Lantizia> i just don't want the authors rules and settings - that would see (to me) to be a very usual thing to request
16:18:37  <Lantizia> load in the map - just don't in their settings
16:19:33  <frosch123> that approach fails for half of the settings
16:19:53  <frosch123> settings also affect where industries can be built and such
16:20:16  <Lantizia> right but if your loading a map that already has maps, industries, roads, etc... - no problem
16:21:05  <frosch123> haha, that would likely give 1000 people complaining that the industry number reduce to 1/10 within 3 years :p
16:21:18  <frosch123> maps are not static
16:21:21  <frosch123> they change all the time
16:21:27  <frosch123> towns change, industries change
16:22:06  <Lantizia> i really don't see what the issue in
16:22:21  <Lantizia> load in the actual map ... don't load in settings - just assume the global/default ones
16:23:09  <Lantizia> i'm sure ttdlx was the same - no settings were stored in the actual save files - as you could change them after starting a game
16:24:41  <Zuu> Having them in the save file makes it easier when you switch between different games. And make it easier to reproduce bugs as well.
16:25:13  <frosch123> yes, ttd had that option
16:25:23  <frosch123> but it was trashed when it was no longer possible to support
16:25:29  <frosch123> because of more advanced settings
16:25:41  <frosch123> anyway, my point was mood, industries close in all custom scenarios
16:25:52  <frosch123> probably why scenarios generally are unpopular
16:26:04  <Lantizia> why do they close?
16:30:15  <Zuu> Default industries close after some time when not beeing served. New industries are opened at random place.
16:30:47  <Zuu> You can find out more in the wiki if you like to know more on the logics behind closure.
16:31:10  <Lantizia> that was the same in ttdlx anyway
16:32:39  <Zuu> Well, when making a scenario you may want to turn off industry closure and also random industry generation. To do so you need a mixture of both a NewGRF and settings to achieve this.
16:33:24  <Zuu> If your new game settings, doesn't include the setting to turn of generation of new industries, the scenario will have new industry generation, but no closure.
16:33:46  <Lantizia> i don't normally use newgrf - i'm on original ttd gfx's/music/sound
16:34:20  <Zuu> But if you load a scenario, you get the NewGRFs it has choosen.
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16:34:45  <Lantizia> ??? graphics come with scenarions?
16:34:52  <Lantizia> is NewGFX more than just graphics?
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16:35:45  <Zuu> NewGRF contain much more than just graphics. It contains rules for industries, vehicels etc. that the NewGRF provides.
16:36:12  <Zuu> For example a NewGRF can make vehicles cost half price at 24 dec every year if it wish. :-)
16:36:33  <Lantizia> then it (as well as heightmaps) has a very confusing name
16:37:17  <Zuu> You could read it out as New Game Resource File if it helps you.
16:37:36  <Lantizia> i always thought GFX was graphics
16:37:51  <Lantizia> sorry GRF
16:37:58  <frosch123> that's what it was 10 years ago :p
16:37:58  <planetmaker> that's why it's called grf - game resource file :)
16:38:37  <glx> even 10 years ago it contained stuff not related to graphics
16:40:17  <Lantizia> i now just feel like loading up ttdlx - at least i know where I am with that
16:40:42  <Lantizia> this just has too many hidden options, mods, and terminology (that tbh needs eliminating in a future major release)
16:42:09  * andythenorth recommends it
16:42:14  <andythenorth> all this newfangled stuff is silly
16:42:25  <andythenorth> try TTO
16:43:28  <Zuu> although that doesn't allow 64x64 maps which is also kind of interesting. :-)
16:44:34  <Lantizia> why would you want such a tiny map?
16:44:41  <Zuu> Why not?
16:45:08  <Zuu> I played a MP with 4-5 companies on 64x128 once. It was very interesting.
16:45:09  <Lantizia> umm, a short and boring game
16:45:26  <Zuu> The game played for several hours.
16:45:35  <Lantizia> wow - hours
16:45:48  <Lantizia> i don't see ttdlx that way
16:45:52  <Lantizia> it's a days on end thing
16:45:59  <andythenorth> preferably without sleep
16:46:03  <andythenorth> or eating
16:46:13  <andythenorth> or attending to bodily functions
16:46:24  <Lantizia> kaboom?
16:49:15  <Alberth> shorter quarry looks much nicer andy, more in line with the other industries
16:49:21  <andythenorth> thanks
16:49:27  <andythenorth> I think it’s an improvement
16:49:30  <andythenorth> also more layouts
16:50:34  <Alberth> yeah, more variation :)
16:50:43  <Alberth> and better placement probably
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16:53:00  <andythenorth> way more placement options
16:53:15  <andythenorth> I got very detailed with which tiles can have foundations under them :P
16:53:35  <andythenorth> btw, for terminology, I proposed just renaming everything as ‘mod’
16:53:43  <andythenorth> newgrf, GS, heightmap, AI, patch
16:53:50  <andythenorth> it will simplify it greatly for the player
17:09:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i doubt that
17:09:45  <Eddi|zuHause> terminology is really easy to pick up
17:10:51  <planetmaker> no no, you get it all wrong. It's sooo confusing, Eddi|zuHause !
17:10:59  <andythenorth> we can do a major release eliminating it
17:11:01  <andythenorth> it will be great
17:11:17  <planetmaker> it also became all much simpler as every type of programme is nowadays called 'app'
17:11:29  <andythenorth> c.f. the long discussion about deleting everything
17:11:34  <andythenorth> best discussion we’ve had here for a while
17:11:42  <andythenorth> what does ‘c.f.’ mean?
17:11:51  <planetmaker> compare for?
17:12:34  <andythenorth> "The abbreviation cf. derives from the Latin word confer, while in English it is commonly read as "compare"."
17:12:37  <andythenorth> how rare
17:12:40  * andythenorth did not know that
17:13:48  <frosch123> hmm, another latin abbreviation to add to my english :) i.e., e.g, cf.
17:13:49  <Alberth> I'd translate it as"as discussed before", or "along the lines of"
17:15:56  <frosch123> translate it as \ref :p
17:16:10  <andythenorth> I had no idea :P
17:16:20  <Alberth> \cite   :p
17:16:27  <andythenorth> anyway, we’re deleting newgrf for 2.0?
17:16:49  <Alberth> yeah, they will be called oldgrf by then
17:16:51  <frosch123> i thought about removing the user interface
17:17:01  <frosch123> moving gameplay to ais is way more time efficient
17:17:07  <andythenorth> easier to understand
17:17:13  <andythenorth> I would keep *a* UI
17:17:17  <andythenorth> but not the current one
17:17:23  <andythenorth> just a chart showing which AI is winning
17:17:32  <andythenorth> performance will also be improved, no sprites to draw
17:17:40  <andythenorth> we can use vectors for the chart
17:17:43  <frosch123> belugas had one for his song a few years ago
17:17:52  <frosch123> it was the main screen with a single "tuut tuut" button
17:18:00  <frosch123> or was that for your kid?
17:18:06  <andythenorth> not mine :)
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17:24:53  <Wolf01> hi hi
17:29:43  <Wolf01> mmmh, I don't know what is worse: (o)tt(d), factorio, terraria or gnomoria...
17:31:18  <frosch123> isn't terraria really boring?
17:32:00  <Wolf01> only if you don't find anything funny to do
17:32:35  <frosch123> like drowning your co-players? :p
17:33:12  <Wolf01> or digging a 48 tiles wide hole to the hell in large maps
17:33:29  <frosch123> and flood it with the sea from the map border?
17:33:37  <Wolf01> or building a minecart rail with bumpers and jumps
17:34:05  <frosch123> minecart must be something newish
17:34:45  <Wolf01> it was there since 1.2, but in 1.3 there are lots of random tracks you can use for fast-exploring the map
17:39:28  * andythenorth can’t click with factorio
17:39:47  <andythenorth> bbl :)
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17:40:48  <Belugas> I was summoned from the deads!  hello
17:40:57  <Zuu> Hello Belugas
17:41:05  <Wolf01> hello Belugas :D
17:41:38  <frosch123> do zombies drink coffee?
17:49:55  <V453000> okay so I made a todo list what I need in order to create a base set
17:50:06  <V453000> not very thrilled after seeing the length XD
17:50:44  <frosch123> haha, what priority did you assign to gui sprites? :p
17:50:57  <V453000> yeah somewhere around UFO
17:51:01  <frosch123> they are the most boring ones, but also those which we need most (imho)
17:51:21  <V453000> I might even do gui before industries/houses
17:51:55  <frosch123> are you going to render them? :)
17:52:08  <frosch123> more zoom levels and such
17:52:24  <V453000> I guess, yeah
17:52:33  <V453000> most convenient way I feel like
17:52:34  <frosch123> someone tried to make svgs
17:52:42  <frosch123> but they were not particulary pretty either
17:52:48  <V453000> I might edit the x1 ones and push some pixels
17:52:55  <V453000> but the source will likely be 3D
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17:54:57  <V453000> about to try sketching some signals I thin k
17:55:09  <V453000> I want roads, tracks, landscape, trees to go into 0.0.1
17:55:48  <frosch123> signals have a good rendering ratio :)
17:55:51  <frosch123> 8 rotations
17:55:58  <frosch123> red/green almost same
17:56:08  <frosch123> signal variannts not much different and so :)
17:56:10  <V453000> sure sure but they need to look nice and clear :)
17:56:12  <V453000> yeah
17:56:17  <V453000> trees are hell so far
17:56:35  <V453000> (I am making them kind of grow and die etc in detail)
17:56:38  <V453000> is cute but WORK
18:15:00  <Zuu> I was bored, and tried to write some nml. I got it working except for the production change callback which is kind of the key part. Does anyone easily see why nmlc complain about unrecognized identifier?
18:16:04  <frosch123> no "_" in front of the 1
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18:17:58  <frosch123> not sure whether just a STORE_PERM works there
18:19:59  <frosch123> <- try something like that
18:25:25  <Zuu> Just removing the "_" before 1 make it compile.
18:25:45  <Zuu> But maybe the switch is useful still.
18:27:27  <frosch123> well, it needs some return value
18:27:35  <frosch123> otherwise i have no idea what nml would output :p
18:27:57  <Zuu> As in return value of the callback?
18:28:01  <frosch123> yes
18:30:23  <Zuu> nmlc complain on line 12 of your version. Should there be a , between ] and {, and possible a terminating ) at line 14?
18:30:40  <frosch123> ah, the ) goes after the ]
18:30:43  <frosch123> before the {
18:33:48  <Zuu> Thanks.
18:34:00  <Zuu> Tried to test in trunk, but my GS crashed. :-)
18:34:17  <Zuu> Silly me
18:35:13  <frosch123> you can see the persistent storage in the newgrf inspector window
18:36:09  <Zuu> Ah yes, I just need to manually repaint the window to see it.
18:36:14  <Zuu> But it works.
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18:39:33  <Supercheese> yeah the newgrf debug window doesn't get automatically marked dirty and repainted very often
18:39:59  <Zuu> andythenorth: You missed I made my first NewGRF! :-)
18:40:03  <Zuu>
18:40:20  <Zuu> With some help from frosch123 to actually make it work though :-)
18:43:06  <andythenorth> \o/
18:43:22  <andythenorth> does it work? o_O
18:44:43  <Belugas> i drink coffee, so.. am i a zombie?
18:44:46  <Belugas> noooo...
18:44:49  <Zuu> Yep it works
18:44:51  <Belugas> bloodddddd!!
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18:45:24  <Zuu> I can place signs on coal mines with integer values that show up in the NewGRF permanent store. :-)
18:47:27  <frosch123> i guess we need a real gs/industry idea for the next testcase :)
18:48:26  <frosch123> make industry production depend on other industries being serviced in the same town? or something like that?
18:48:28  <andythenorth> eh I will mod FIRS for it - but not before mid August :)
18:48:40  <andythenorth> and it will be a branch-of-a-branch :P
18:48:50  * andythenorth will have to learn how to merge properly
18:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> how about: primary industries offer contracts: "transport X amount of cargo to Y over the next 5 years", and they don't produce anything outside these contracts?
18:49:30  <Zuu> I uploaded the NewGRF + sources to my dev directory.
18:49:34  <andythenorth> an obvious application is electricity
18:49:38  <frosch123> or make it part of busy bee?
18:49:49  <frosch123> transport coal from A to B to make C increase production?
18:49:52  <andythenorth> production boost if a nearby power plant is supplied
18:50:37  <frosch123> that is complicated, because gs needs to know about what a powerplant is :p
18:50:41  <andythenorth> yeah :P
18:51:06  * andythenorth ponders 3 modes for FIRS supplies: “temporary boost | level up | GS controlled"
18:51:23  <andythenorth> supplies / primary industries /s
18:51:56  <frosch123> hmm, gs can detect supplies
18:52:04  <frosch123> so, yeah, maybe we can make something special with supplies
18:52:07  <andythenorth> approximately yes
18:52:29  <andythenorth> there is nothing to handle setting text
18:52:43  <frosch123> text?
18:52:46  <andythenorth> ach, industry window text was one of my ponies, and I forgot :P
18:52:50  <andythenorth> poor lost pony
18:53:07  <andythenorth> it’s in your newgrf draft spec somewhere frosch123
18:53:12  <frosch123> anyway, what should gs do about supplies?
18:53:24  <andythenorth> dunno, I have enough headaches with them :
18:53:25  <andythenorth> :)
18:53:45  <frosch123> should it autodistribute them to nearby industries? :p
18:53:57  <andythenorth> I have considered before delivering to, e.g. a supply depot
18:53:58  <frosch123> deliver stuff to one industry, boost all in town
18:54:01  <andythenorth> to boost all neighbouring
18:54:21  <andythenorth> I am dubious that it makes good gameplay, but eh
18:54:27  <andythenorth> experimentation is good...
18:54:27  <frosch123> ok, maybe something more silly
18:54:38  <frosch123> usually mail transport is really boring
18:54:41  <andythenorth> yes indeed
18:54:47  <frosch123> so, make good mail service boost production of all industries :)
18:54:59  <frosch123> Zuu: how does that sound? :p
18:55:20  * Zuu reads backlog
18:55:24  <andythenorth> ‘realistic’ ideas: local population, politics, geology, water supply, fuel supply
18:55:25  <frosch123> it's even realistic
18:55:32  <frosch123> you cannot sell stuff without mail
18:55:53  <frosch123> deliver all the paychecks :)
18:55:57  <andythenorth> valid
18:56:01  <V453000> maybe something as complicated as a single signal would be more interesting ;)
18:56:07  <V453000> like a combination of PBS and entry signal
18:56:24  <andythenorth> also town deliveries, food and such
18:56:25  <Zuu> frosch123: sounds like a nice and silly idea.
18:57:02  <frosch123> does it affect primary, or also secondary industries?
18:57:05  <andythenorth> good mail service in that town?
18:57:08  <andythenorth> or everywhere?
18:57:11  <Zuu> IIRC there is a love letter AI (aka MailAI) that only transports mail.
18:57:36  <andythenorth> deliver n% of the available mail / month?
18:58:24  <frosch123> n% of mail delivered from a town set production to base-production * (50% + n%)
18:58:36  <frosch123> so 50% to 150%
18:58:47  <frosch123> really low if no mail, tripled if 100% mail
18:59:05  <frosch123> same for primary and secondary :p
18:59:17  <frosch123> i.e. secondary output more than delivered if they have good mail
18:59:31  <frosch123> possibly mail is averaged over 3 month or so
19:01:14  <andythenorth> so (theoretical case) that this is used with FIRS
19:01:21  <andythenorth> are supplies redundant?
19:01:29  * andythenorth ponders ways to work that
19:01:56  <Zuu> You could always include both in a formula giving both supplies and mail bonus?
19:02:15  <Zuu> But if that is desired is a different question.
19:02:45  <Zuu> Or you only get the mail bonus, if you also provide suplies.
19:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> that is complicated, because gs needs to know about what a powerplant is :p <-- there needs to be a standardized interface, where the GS asks each industry what behaviour it supports, e.g. some flags that are returned similar to the way cargo classes work
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19:04:44  <frosch123> <- Zuu: that makes the variable modify the production of the coal mine
19:05:02  <frosch123> 50% if 0 (default), 100% if 128, 150% if 256, ...
19:05:54  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that exists, and sv makes use of that
19:06:09  <frosch123> but in the end you cannot check all weird newgrfs
19:06:44  <Eddi|zuHause> of course not. only non-weird newgrfs will work, but there needs to be work done to decide what is "weird" and what is not
19:07:08  <frosch123> Zuu: the normal production changes of the industry are actually disabled that way, so only the gs affects production
19:07:09  <Eddi|zuHause> like how long did railtypes exist until we came up with the standardized railtype scheme?
19:07:38  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: sorry, but purr is the only good railtype grf out there
19:07:48  <frosch123> everything else has been a disappointment
19:07:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but that was not the question :p
19:08:03  <frosch123> (except for pure graphics like swedish rails)
19:08:25  <Eddi|zuHause> "good" and "weird" are totally orthogonal
19:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause> like wasteland is totally "weird" on almost all accounts, doesn't prevent it from being "good" in its own way
19:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> or this mars set
19:09:33  <Eddi|zuHause> was that ever released?
19:09:35  <andythenorth> cargo labels works
19:09:35  <frosch123> railtypes with different speed and weight limits are not interesting on any scale
19:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: maybe not for your playstyle.
19:09:59  <andythenorth> but I cannot think where to start on defining a convention for industries
19:10:00  <frosch123> possible :)
19:10:15  <andythenorth> cargo labels have a single dimension
19:10:28  <andythenorth> industry properties are n-dimensional
19:10:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: cargo labels have the problem of not being future-proof
19:11:10  <andythenorth> ?
19:11:16  <andythenorth> seem pretty future proof to me :)
19:11:18  <andythenorth> what do I miss?
19:12:00  <frosch123> andythenorth: eddi's railtype schema totally accounts for pipelines and wetrail
19:12:11  <andythenorth> eh well
19:12:20  <frosch123> and vacuum rail
19:12:23  <andythenorth> good
19:12:27  <andythenorth> let’s do that then?
19:12:48  <andythenorth> cargo labels are a bad example, they’re just a UUID, almost zero information content
19:13:22  <frosch123> let's make a gs that favours transporting pourable cargos
19:13:25  <frosch123> call it junkie gs
19:14:01  <Zuu> frosch123: That newgrf make relative changes? Or is it ment to be absolute production levels?
19:14:18  <frosch123> absolute level
19:14:28  <frosch123> set once, never changed until set again
19:14:33  <andythenorth> hmm, what is the purpose of exposing some range of industry attributes to GS?
19:14:42  <andythenorth> these are about industry behaviour?
19:14:58  <Zuu> I meant, if you make two subsequent changes, do they add up or will 255 always mean the same production?
19:15:17  <frosch123> setting to same value again does not change anything
19:15:40  <Zuu> Only, that it takes time for monthly production to shift over to the new value.
19:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like there should be ways to do both relative and absolute changes
19:15:57  <andythenorth> there is
19:16:02  <andythenorth> just set the appropriate value
19:16:03  <frosch123> a gs can easily remember what values it set
19:16:15  <andythenorth> those CBs are remarkably complete :)
19:16:27  <frosch123> relative changes are overrated
19:16:40  <frosch123> they just add an integral term, which makes stuff behave unpleasant
19:16:45  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but what if it doesn't take full control, only wants to tweak stuff here and there?
19:16:48  <andythenorth> I’ve always found the industry spec very sane and easy to work with, despite some odd bits
19:17:01  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: so what, write a different grf
19:17:03  <frosch123> this one does this
19:17:08  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: like a disaster that halves all production of food
19:17:26  * frosch123 throws ENoSense
19:17:44  <andythenorth> locusts :P
19:17:45  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we're talking about different things :p
19:18:00  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: in this case I’m missing what you think is missing?
19:18:02  <andythenorth> :)
19:18:32  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the goal was to make mail transport affect production
19:18:52  <frosch123> i consider relative production changes the root of all evil
19:19:45  <Eddi|zuHause> sure. absolute dictatorships were always better wrt. economy.
19:19:50  <frosch123> setting absolute levels depending on limited environment variables results in way better predictable/handleable behaviour
19:20:06  <frosch123> releative changes either grow to 0 or to infinity, both is terrible
19:20:36  <Eddi|zuHause> they may do that, if you don't have proper feedback loops
19:20:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the current game doesn't have any useful feedback loops, though
19:20:59  <frosch123> if you add a feedback loop, setting relative or absolute values is equivalent
19:21:08  <frosch123> so, what's even your point?
19:21:25  <andythenorth> was it a spec point, or a gameplay point? o_O
19:21:51  <frosch123> no idea, maybe i should clean my dishes
19:21:56  <frosch123> may be more useful
19:22:01  <andythenorth> :(
19:22:02  <Eddi|zuHause> well, my original point was a spec point about being able to set relative changes
19:22:08  <andythenorth> you can :)
19:22:17  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the spec is that there is no spec
19:22:21  <Eddi|zuHause> then we diverged
19:22:53  * andythenorth has a “can’t we all be friends?” moment :(
19:23:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, we need some a14 to make newgrf give information to gs
19:23:34  <frosch123> like, industry 1 understand "gs interface 'andy's finest'"
19:23:41  <andythenorth> yeah agreed
19:23:48  <andythenorth> except I have no idea what to use it for :)
19:23:58  <frosch123> likely this would just be a key->value table, which gs can query
19:24:02  <Zuu> GS can currently read last month production. If it had current production rate, it could make accurate relative production changes.
19:24:05  <frosch123> so, one can add random other properties
19:24:41  <andythenorth> eh Eddi|zuHause are you thinking of the case where the industry is using production cb?
19:24:47  <frosch123> Zuu: above newgrf does not change production on its own, so if you remember that yuo assigned a value to the industry, you do not need to read it
19:24:49  <andythenorth> and you want to specify some message passing spec?
19:24:58  * andythenorth puzzling
19:24:59  <frosch123> you have to keep track of what industries got which values anyway
19:25:36  <Zuu> frosch123: Yep, I was more thinking in general terms for other NewGRFs, in respect to the remark by Eddi.
19:25:48  * andythenorth thinks it might be convenient if the GS can have convenience methods to set value as per
19:26:01  <andythenorth> so that the GS / NewGRF interfaces match up
19:26:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: but i consider all those return values terrible :p
19:26:22  <andythenorth> ha
19:26:29  <andythenorth> I like 0C personally :P
19:26:33  <frosch123> did you ever use them?
19:26:39  <andythenorth> eh, no
19:27:03  <andythenorth> FIRS uses production cb currently for all case IIRC
19:27:18  <andythenorth> multiplier is currently ignored
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19:27:26  <andythenorth> I have been wanting to change that for a long time though
19:27:40  <frosch123> [21:27] <andythenorth> multiplier is currently ignored <- exactly, and i think all proper newgrfs do that
19:28:03  <frosch123> there is nothing as useless as the production multiplier, except for interfacing the cheat :p
19:28:27  <Zuu> Which is now available as a sign cheat, yay :-)
19:28:49  <frosch123> we, should implement all ttdp sign cheats as gs :p
19:28:49  <Zuu> Or well, not the multiplier, but production change.
19:29:23  <frosch123> Zuu: the method above is already better than the production mulitplier ever could be :/
19:30:39  * andythenorth is amused by frosch123’s vitriol
19:30:40  <andythenorth> :)
19:31:54  <Zuu> Hmm, when I put a sign with 0, it doesn't go back to 120 tones of coal.
19:32:29  <Zuu> But then, my dev build is a bit slow so I haven't waited more than 2-3 months.
19:33:22  <andythenorth> can GS control move-cargo-to-station? o_O :P
19:33:34  <Zuu> ?
19:33:42  * andythenorth didn’t know that only the two highest rated stations were served with cargo :P
19:33:48  <andythenorth> until last week or so
19:33:55  <Zuu> GS cannot control that.
19:34:01  <Zuu> Unless NewGRF can.
19:34:05  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a weird feature anyway
19:34:11  <andythenorth> it’s not appropriate to GS, runs too often
19:34:21  <andythenorth> and newgrf can’t control it
19:34:44  <andythenorth> it’s needed to fix freight cdist though
19:34:46  <andythenorth> nvm
19:35:17  <Zuu> It could perhaps just be a regular setting "number of stations to deliver to". Or is there a point of allowing people to write different NewGRFs for this property?
19:36:25  <Zuu> frosch123: Does 0 mean that it pass back control to OpenTTD?
19:38:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: i doubt there is a case to make for NewGRFs to do this
19:38:15  <Zuu> Me too
19:38:39  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i'm not sure what sane settings would be there
19:40:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it should be changed to a two-step model: all stations of one company get averaged, and then the two players with the highest average get the cargo. then it's distributed between all stations of that player
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19:41:59  <frosch123> Zuu: 0 means 50% of default, there is no passing back control
19:42:18  <frosch123> without gs the industry will never change production or even close :)
19:43:44  <Zuu> Hmm, when the map was created, it had 120 tonnes. When setting to 0 it went down shortly to 176 and is now back at 198. Hmm and now on 176 again, and then on 198.. Hmm
19:44:05  <Zuu> Maybe an affect of moths with different lengths?
19:44:15  <Zuu> months*
19:44:36  <Zuu> 30 or 31 days.
19:47:13  <Zuu> But right, it do react to 0, 128, 255, 512 etc. I was only surprised that 0, gave a higher production than when the map was fresh.
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19:48:30  <Zuu> Hmm.. that said, restarting the game and waiting some time (without placing any sign) will make it change from 120 to 176/198 tonnes.
19:49:00  <Zuu> So I guess it is confirmed it do work rather predictable.
19:52:46  <andythenorth> first month production is usually weird
19:53:01  <andythenorth> and yes, you’re seeing variation due to 8 or 9 production cycles in a specific
19:53:42  <Zuu> Then I learned something new :-)
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20:05:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: production runs every 256 ticks. there are about 8.8 production cycles fitting into each month
20:06:27  <frosch123> it produces 180 tons at 0?
20:06:35  <frosch123> i expected something like 60...
20:07:14  <frosch123> @calc 15*8
20:07:14  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 120
20:07:18  <Eddi|zuHause> 176 is a weird value, it's 11*16
20:07:21  <frosch123> @calc 15*9
20:07:21  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 135
20:07:33  <Eddi|zuHause> so it produced 22 cargo per step
20:07:42  <frosch123> so i expected 60 to 68
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20:12:07  <andythenorth> what is production_rate_1 set to?
20:12:12  <andythenorth> this is default coal mine?
20:12:20  <frosch123> 15 for coal mine
20:13:07  <andythenorth> yeah 60 would have been my expectation
20:13:23  <andythenorth> umm
20:13:31  <andythenorth> it will still produce conventionally no?
20:13:42  * andythenorth checks
20:13:48  <frosch123> oh, that may be the case
20:14:03  <frosch123> yeah, it does :)
20:14:18  <frosch123> ok, then 180 is correct :)
20:14:35  <andythenorth> even andythenorth can debug sometimes :P
20:16:02  <andythenorth> FIRS code was the clue
20:16:14  <andythenorth> ‘quadruple production’ is multiplied by 3 :P
20:16:34  <andythenorth> which adds to the base production
20:16:49  <andythenorth> took me a long time to understand that :P
20:17:42  <Zuu> Ah ok. So base production is 180 for coal mine. And 0 is 180 + 0?
20:19:28  <andythenorth> nearly
20:19:38  <andythenorth> base production is about 120 or so
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20:19:59  <andythenorth> and the production multiplier code adds 60 + 0
20:20:24  <andythenorth> it’s just a side effect
20:20:32  <Zuu> Ok
20:20:43  <andythenorth> it could be handled better relatively trivially
20:21:05  <andythenorth> as long as you know the cause, it’s a non-issue for the GS test :)
20:21:06  <Zuu> Those 60 is that from the formulas in the NewGRF?
20:21:10  <andythenorth> yes
20:21:28  <Zuu> Yep indeed.
20:21:38  <andythenorth> 8* ((15 * 128) / 256)
20:21:48  * andythenorth put the unnecessary brackets in, can’t read it otherwise
20:24:40  <frosch123> Zuu: <- improved version
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20:26:23  <andythenorth> “now includes closure” :)
20:26:40  <andythenorth> are you just setting a closure bit? o_O
20:26:45  * andythenorth is not very good at shifts :P
20:27:00  <frosch123> yup, just a closure bit :)
20:27:12  <frosch123> i guess i can compile a complete manual industries set like this
20:27:23  <frosch123> just give production and closure control to gs
20:27:27  <andythenorth> yes
20:27:28  <frosch123> they can fund stuff anyway
20:27:33  <andythenorth> it’s the way forward
20:27:39  <andythenorth> more experimental branches :)
20:28:09  <Zuu> Hmm, I though GS could close industries, but I don't find that API so I was wrong until now. :-)
20:28:28  <frosch123> Zuu: cleartile might have worked
20:28:39  <frosch123> as owner_deity, but maybe not :p
20:28:54  <Zuu> frosch123: Btw, I add you to list of authors and there is a note that the grf is in GPLv2 which I think is fine to you, but may be good to you to be aware of.
20:29:09  <frosch123> gpl2 is fine :)
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20:31:01  * frosch123 ponders how to compose json structues with newgrf
20:31:06  <andythenorth> o_O
20:31:20  <andythenorth> a modern, easy to compile format?
20:31:20  <Terkhen> good night
20:31:24  <andythenorth> how rare :)
20:31:27  <andythenorth> bye Terkhen
20:31:38  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i have my doubt that json fits into 15 bits :p
20:31:40  <andythenorth> compile / pasrse /s
20:31:49  <andythenorth> or parse even :(
20:31:53  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that's the trick, it does not need to
20:31:58  <andythenorth> somebody else was borrowing my fingers :P
20:32:13  <Zuu> frosch123: You have 2 syntax errors. I fixed both though. Great you give me some nml challenges ;-)
20:32:25  <frosch123> i am just to lazy to compile myself :p
20:32:31  <frosch123> i typed it right into the paste
20:32:40  <frosch123> and coop paste has no nml syntax checker :p
20:32:41  <Zuu> One is in the switch and one is for prod_multiplier.
20:32:47  <frosch123> (at least i hope it does not :p )
20:33:02  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: let me divert your attention to a possible subproject: make the textstack behave like an actual stack (so any write access to a register, say 0x100, will be a push operation)
20:33:37  <Eddi|zuHause> (possibly 0x100/0x101/0x102 behaving like 8/16/32 bit pushes)
20:33:57  <frosch123> are you sure yuo want to do that? :p
20:34:13  <frosch123> that makes it nearly impossible for nml to optimise action2 chains
20:34:19  <frosch123> if the order of assignment suddenly matters
20:34:21  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it would simplify like 10 LOC of CETS :p
20:35:04  <Zuu> frosch123: compiled newgrf should it be of interest of you:
20:35:09  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you need sequence points :p
20:35:28  <frosch123> rather add a action2 operand, which uses indirect adressing of word on the textstack
20:35:38  <Eddi|zuHause> (one of the weirdest semantics of C)
20:35:44  <andythenorth> frosch123: is the json a manifest?
20:35:50  <andythenorth> or something else?
20:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: how does that resolve this?
20:41:14  <frosch123> you would be able to store 8 and 16 bit values without having to OR them
20:45:15  <Zuu> frosch123: To close a coal mine, I should place a sign with 65536?
20:46:18  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but you would still have to keep track at which position in the stack you are
20:46:46  <Eddi|zuHause> which defeats the point of a stack
20:47:10  <Eddi|zuHause> which makes it not a stack at all, basically.
20:47:24  <frosch123> <- information query callback with json result :p
20:47:30  <frosch123> Zuu: yes
20:47:43  <Zuu> It doesn't close for me :-/
20:47:55  <frosch123> Zuu: it shoudl announce closure on next 1st
20:48:00  <frosch123> and close on second next 1st
20:48:21  <Zuu> It changes production to 40-50 tonnes a month.
20:49:06  <frosch123> yes, the 0x10000 is a flag, production is still set
20:51:51  <andythenorth> ha
20:52:01  <andythenorth> the start of a technology ladder :) :P
20:52:13  <andythenorth> vehicles next :P
20:52:59  <Zuu> I get no news message and no closure. :-/
20:54:29  <frosch123> well, might check saturday
20:54:35  <frosch123> i won't be here tomorrow
20:54:35  <andythenorth> why is L 38 returning CB_RESULT_IND_PROD_CLOSE?
20:54:53  <Zuu> no problem
20:55:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: c&p :)
20:55:15  <frosch123> should be NO_CHANGE
20:55:20  <andythenorth> yup :)
20:56:12  <andythenorth> the problem will just be a shift that is wrong or similar
20:57:41  <andythenorth> Zuu: strictly, these industries should have been closing straight away, according to the paste :)
20:58:01  <frosch123> only when the random change triggers
20:58:21  <frosch123> which highlights a flaw of our current 'experimental branch'
20:58:32  <frosch123> the random change resets the gs data :p
20:59:21  <Zuu> As var 10 is zero there?
20:59:45  <frosch123> yup
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21:01:04  <frosch123> hmm, "json template" is no good google term
21:01:30  <frosch123> it only gives results which use json to set template parameters
21:01:31  <Zuu> So it should use some bit in var 10 to indicate it is a call from GS. and NewGRf only set permanent store if that bit is set. Can NewGRF do that?
21:01:35  <frosch123> but none to output json :p
21:02:01  <Zuu> Or we are just aware of it for now, and it will be fixed once GS get its own callback.
21:02:07  <frosch123> Zuu: in theory yes, but if we care about that, we should rather add a new callback :p
21:02:20  <Zuu> I think we just don't care for now.
21:02:21  <frosch123> it's good enough for the experimental branch
21:02:55  <Zuu> GS could spam the industries with updates to work around it. :-)
21:03:01  <frosch123> hmm, "<" is no reserved character in json, right?
21:03:22  <Zuu> as in literal strings?
21:03:30  <frosch123> so, should template parameter be written like functions "PARAM(1)" or like c++ "<1>"
21:03:48  <frosch123> '{ "Supports": ["GSProduction"], "Production": PARAM(1), "Technology": PARAM(2) }'
21:04:00  <frosch123> '{ "Supports": ["GSProduction"], "Production": <1>, "Technology": <2>) }'
21:04:13  <frosch123> which one is easier to process? :p
21:04:39  <Zuu> The later is to me easier to read as human, but then I'm not trained in nml reading :-)
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21:06:18  <frosch123> well, night :)
21:06:21  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
21:08:31  * andythenorth must also to bed :)
21:08:32  <Zuu> Reminds me that I saw a resturant called Golden Unicorn in Finland.
21:08:44  <andythenorth> Unicorn Farm for FIRS
21:09:22  <Zuu> bed sounds good
21:09:41  <andythenorth> nice that this patch advances :)
21:09:42  <andythenorth> bye
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21:09:48  <Zuu> gn
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23:02:16  <Wolf01> 'night
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