Log for #openttd on 24th July 2015:
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06:30:33  <Zuu> What if, a busy bee fork would have: industries are by default at low 33% production. When a goal is completed it level up the involved source industry to produce more.
06:32:29  <Zuu> Perhaps one 33% step at a time. If you play on eg. 255x255 with not too many industries you will then at some point get to level up the same industry more than once.
06:32:31  <andythenorth> try it :)
06:32:42  <andythenorth> one goal of BB was to encourage forks
06:32:56  <andythenorth> especially w.r.t to goal types + rewards
06:33:25  <andythenorth> level up + new destination for the extra cargo?
06:33:46  <andythenorth> it’s ~impossible for GS to enforce source-destination pairs for a cargo
06:34:09  <andythenorth> but it can still provide a goal that encourages certain routes
06:34:42  <Zuu> It cannot enforce destination of cargo.
06:34:59  <Zuu> Not sure how it would detect that the new cargo is delivered to a different location.
06:35:45  <Zuu> IIRC we don't have A->B monitors.
06:36:09  <peter1138> Subsidies manage it
06:38:41  <Supercheese> Unless cargodist is on :P
06:39:01  <andythenorth> cdist doesn’t know
06:39:06  <andythenorth> unless I misunderstand
06:39:11  <andythenorth> cdist only knows next hop
06:39:43  <andythenorth> Zuu: it doesn’t need to enforce the destination, just provide a new goal using the extra cargo
06:39:46  <andythenorth> player can figure it out
06:40:15  <andythenorth> could just do a ‘transported from’ goal, but eh, they’re easy to cheat with piglets :)
06:40:16  <Zuu> It could just be a goal for that cargo type that the industry produces with some random destination industry.
06:40:54  <Zuu> Eg. after leveling up an industry, provide a 'transport to' goal with matching cargo.
06:40:57  <andythenorth> yes
06:41:00  <andythenorth> exactly
06:42:12  <Zuu> which would then level up the destination industry? or can only 'transport from' goals level up?
06:44:38  <andythenorth> dunno :)
06:45:29  <andythenorth> what kind of goal triggers a level up?
06:45:40  <andythenorth> could be things like town delivery goals

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07:21:29  <Zuu> Hmm, you save companies directly into the table returned by Save(). Would make more sense to return { companies: {}, other_data: {}, ..} so it is more extendable.
07:23:10  <Zuu> Also, I see it process data directly in Load() which is okay if you do it fast. I however have seen AIs crash due to doing this, and has since then picked up a practice where I just put loaded data table in a member variable of the main class and then handle it when Start() is called, where you have no time restriction.
07:23:45  <Zuu> See MinimalGS for an example.
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07:41:44  <Alberth> it was my first real script :p
07:42:45  <andythenorth> :)
07:43:49  <Zuu> :-)
07:51:58  <Zuu> Hmm, doesn't this code make it so it will wait until the largest timeout is completed?
07:51:59  <Zuu>
07:52:21  <Zuu> Hmm no.
07:52:34  <Zuu> Just the if statements that are reversed as to how I would write them. :-)
07:58:26  <Alberth> clearly you want a n-ary 'min' function :)
08:04:35  <Alberth> I sometimes wonder if we should have a customizable payment function X + distance * Y + travel-time * Z
08:05:32  <planetmaker> newgrf-able coefficients?
08:05:40  <planetmaker> or GS-able coefficients? :D
08:06:09  <Alberth> where you can define the XYZ values for a pair of src/dest, only src or dest, or  generic (in order of test)
08:06:14  <Alberth> GS-able, imho
08:06:33  <planetmaker> M = A + B*distance^beta + C*travel_time^gamma
08:06:39  <Alberth> grf can do cargo-type specific payments
08:06:44  <planetmaker> make it 5 variables then :)
08:07:05  <Alberth> well, yeah, whatever formula is nice
08:07:23  <planetmaker> I dunno either. I don't even quite know what it's now.
08:07:58  <planetmaker> However currently the value and the cargo aging times t1 and t2 can be set by newGRF
08:08:12  <Alberth> time, distance, cargo-type, speed of arrival, and the number of status in villages along the way :p
08:08:43  <planetmaker> :) And vehicle type - that currently influences station rating
08:09:07  <Alberth> ah, yeah, and if you just washed the train, you get shiny bonus points
08:09:56  <planetmaker> :)
08:10:03  <Alberth> I think cargo aging fits nicely in the newgrf domain
08:10:28  <planetmaker> sure. They define it. they set how fast it decays. Ice cream should have a very short half life time
08:10:35  <planetmaker> coal on the other hand melts less quickly
08:10:52  <Alberth> still too fast :)
08:10:53  <planetmaker> using the dreaded R-argument here, I know :P
08:11:12  <planetmaker> agreed, coal could basically have a 100% flat income curve :)
08:12:01  <Zuu> Well, buring coal could cause nearby farms to produce less crops :-)
08:12:02  <Alberth> well, on the other hand, people are an impatient species :p
08:12:17  <planetmaker> :)
08:13:14  <planetmaker> so next we'll have NewGRFs control vehicle running costs on a daily basis. And in an anti-pattern the GS controlling cargo delivery forumula :P
08:13:33  <Zuu> Btw, to cause this NewGRF to act on all industries, do I have to duplicate the item block for each industry or does nml feature some for loop I could use?
08:14:10  <planetmaker> I think you really have to duplicate it N times
08:14:25  <Zuu> Which is why you guys use a pre processor? :-)
08:14:30  <planetmaker> :)
08:14:50  <Alberth> hack NML to make it smarter? :)
08:15:16  <planetmaker> Zuu, but of course you can link to the same switches. But you'll need the item blocks
08:15:23  <andythenorth> cargo decay is an attribute of the cargo: proper domain is newgrf
08:15:23  <andythenorth> cargo payment rate is an attribute of the economy on this map at this point in time: proper domain is OpenTTD or GS
08:15:54  <andythenorth> newgrf has custom profit calculation, but nobody ever found any use for it afaik
08:15:56  <Zuu> GS info.nut could have a method where it defines which NewGRFs it want in the game. Then GS authors just need to make NewGRFs to do fine grained stuff with vehicles, and things that need to run too often for the GS domain.
08:15:56  <planetmaker> you don't need to define any single property, it might suffice to just define the callback
08:15:58  <Alberth> btw I hate how NML hides the name of the switch in its parameter list
08:16:10  <andythenorth> +1
08:16:19  <andythenorth> I have to copy and paste switches or read the docs every time
08:16:27  <andythenorth> the structure is hard to learn
08:16:53  <planetmaker> hm, I didn't get what you mean, Alberth
08:17:21  <Alberth> switch (bla bla  name bla bla ) { ...}     vs  name = switch (bla bla bla bla ) { }
08:17:22  <andythenorth> {FEAT_TRAINS, switch_name, params, more params, even more params }
08:17:40  <planetmaker> you mean the switch name should be first like switch SWITCHNAME(feature_x, params,...) ?
08:17:47  <Zuu> Someone made a NewGRF that disabled range based income and also one which made you pay for source cargo and get income only from secondary cargo.
08:18:17  <Alberth> planetmaker: at some other place than the parameter list, imho
08:18:38  <Alberth> because that's stuff going in, rather than coming out
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08:18:54  <planetmaker> for me the normal way is like: function function_name(parameters) { body }
08:19:17  <andythenorth> switch (FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, ${}_switch_graphics_${variation_num}_${cargo_variant_num}_check_preceding_vehicle_same_id,
08:19:18  <andythenorth>                                     ${vehicle.get_nml_expression_for_id_of_neighbouring_unit(unit_offset=-1)}) {
08:19:19  <andythenorth> :P
08:19:28  <Alberth> sure, switch name ( ... )  would also work
08:20:14  <andythenorth> I don’t hate the current syntax
08:20:21  <andythenorth> I just find it slow to remember
08:20:30  <Alberth> but it should work for all blocks
08:20:32  <andythenorth> conceptually, it’s easy to follow
08:21:00  <Alberth> andythenorth: so what should have to change to make it easier to remember?
08:21:15  <Alberth> syntax is supposed to help you write and read it
08:21:56  <andythenorth> foo = switch(params) would make more sense to me
08:21:58  <planetmaker> Alberth, but you're right. I found it awkward as well but stopped to think about it
08:21:58  <andythenorth> declaratively
08:22:25  <andythenorth> I’m not sure my opinion is valid, I largely stopped writing nml
08:22:29  <andythenorth> and I am not the intended audience
08:22:39  <Alberth> I have programmed assembly language, but cannot grok nfo, because *everything* is a number rather than just the numbers
08:22:47  <andythenorth> ha, I like that :)
08:23:05  <andythenorth> no meaningful syntax at all
08:23:14  <Alberth> indeed
08:23:17  <planetmaker> Alberth, so that's a project for nml 0.5 :)
08:23:38  <andythenorth> you can see the kind of syntax I invented :P
08:23:38  <andythenorth>
08:23:47  <andythenorth> it’s not even good python stlye probably
08:23:49  <andythenorth> but nvm
08:23:54  <Alberth> well, yeah, I am somewhat pondering about nml 2.0 :p
08:24:03  <planetmaker> I'd like to continue... but bbl :)
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08:24:21  <andythenorth> also
08:24:48  <andythenorth> I would rather have something like
08:24:58  <andythenorth> foo = road_vehicle()
08:25:13  <andythenorth> rather than item(FEAT_ROADVEHS, foo, stuff)
08:25:16  <andythenorth> or whatever nml does
08:25:49  <Alberth> yeah, nml is built up from nfo concepts, and it shows
08:25:51  <andythenorth> I would also rather that foo was then a first class object that I could actually do naughty stuff to
08:26:07  <andythenorth> rather than an intermediate format that has to be parsed
08:26:14  <andythenorth> but eh
08:26:25  * andythenorth seems to be out on a limb compared to most authors
08:26:35  <Alberth> :)
08:26:48  <andythenorth> I considered making a ‘framework'
08:26:54  <andythenorth> but I’m not a good enough programmer to do it well
08:26:58  <Alberth> building nml objects from python, and handing them to nml for compilation
08:27:01  <andythenorth> and I don’t want the maintenance overhead
08:27:23  <Alberth> you don't want to go back to text, imho
08:27:24  <andythenorth> eddi could do it, but he hasn’t :)
08:27:46  <andythenorth> yeah, dropping the text interchange would be wise
08:27:48  <Alberth> eddi has his own nml fork :)
08:28:21  <andythenorth> I dunno, nml Gets Stuff Done
08:28:40  <andythenorth> I wonder if dropping the initial parsing step makes it any faster
08:29:38  <Zuu> andythenorth: Is .pnml your extension for python script that produces nml or for is it a partial nml file?
08:29:49  <Alberth> scanning is the real problem, as ply pulls in the the entire file as 1 string
08:30:16  <andythenorth> Zuu: I think it’s  ‘processed nml'
08:30:24  <andythenorth> or ‘nml for pre-processing’ or such
08:30:30  <Alberth> so you have python handling *very* large strings
08:30:31  <andythenorth> anywhere it’s an intermediate format
08:30:43  <Zuu> Ok
08:30:58  <Alberth> it' probably C pre-processor input
08:31:04  <Alberth> +'s
08:31:05  <andythenorth> what Alberth said
08:31:20  <Alberth> andy typically generates .nml from .py
08:31:24  <Zuu> Makes sense. I was about to make a self contained script that running it will generate the nml file, but that is probably not a good thing if you ever want to make your second NewGRF.
08:31:28  <andythenorth> and .pypnml is a template file with python templating that results in a pnml file
08:31:42  <andythenorth> and .pynml is a template file with python templating that results in an nml file
08:31:46  <andythenorth> there is some ‘history’ here :P
08:33:00  <andythenorth> Alberth if $somebody wanted to try writing out nml using the output parts of nmlc
08:33:07  <andythenorth> I have python objects for vehicles and such :P
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08:33:50  <Alberth> in my view, you'd start with a language design first
08:34:01  <andythenorth> for a long time, I thought it would be too hard to define switch chains in python, but then I figured out how to use a tree
08:34:04  <Alberth> ie what do you write down in text
08:34:20  <Alberth> + to
08:34:54  <andythenorth> properties are trivial to handle
08:35:05  <Alberth> and the ":" versus "=" or ";" etc aren't very interesting at first
08:35:06  <andythenorth> logic chains are complex I think
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08:35:35  <andythenorth> it’s hard to define switches without some big string
08:35:41  <andythenorth> or at least a template that has to be supplied
08:35:48  <Alberth> with the few things I  wrote, I found you need a lot of chains
08:36:06  <andythenorth> yes
08:36:19  <andythenorth> chains are really simple in concept, but do a lot of the work
08:36:26  <andythenorth> and they can branch to all kinds of destinations
08:36:40  <andythenorth> and they have scope
08:36:55  <Alberth> but you cannot see that in the source
08:37:08  <andythenorth> in the nmlc source?
08:37:25  <Alberth> in your newgrf nml file
08:37:55  <andythenorth> dunno, I would be able to see it
08:38:02  <andythenorth> just reading backwards from the graphics block
08:38:08  <andythenorth> then following switch names
08:38:16  <Alberth> in C or Python you never make   int i;    int i2;  int i3; .... int i4;      if they are not used together
08:38:37  <Alberth> yet you have all kinds of template hacks to make names unique globally
08:38:50  <andythenorth> yes, it’s a global namespace
08:39:02  <andythenorth> or rather, there is no concept of namespace
08:39:19  <andythenorth> there is the concept of nfo of ‘last time this ID was defined'
08:39:20  <Alberth> if you had proper scope, switch names could live in a small part of the code
08:39:47  <Alberth> and you want that in nml ?
08:39:59  <Alberth> or should the nml compiler worry about that?
08:40:02  <andythenorth> it’s of no use to me
08:40:20  <andythenorth> it was a practical fact of writing nfo that needed to be understood, and could be exploited usefully
08:40:31  <andythenorth> but nml magics it all away
08:40:45  <andythenorth> except that it does it a bit slowly
08:41:02  <andythenorth> eh, so
08:41:15  <andythenorth> from nfo -> nml, we lost the concept of ‘last defined ID’ for switch IDs
08:41:21  <andythenorth> but we didn’t gain any form of namespacing
08:41:34  <andythenorth> so actually it looked easier, but was retrograde
08:42:00  <andythenorth> now the author has to manage switch names explicitly, and in my code you see all those chameleon loops handling that
08:42:12  <Alberth> yep
08:42:30  <andythenorth> previous IDs could be defined over and over again, with no problem, as long as you understood the execution order
08:42:38  <andythenorth> previously *
08:44:03  <andythenorth> hmm, there is also a mostly-complete implementation of context in nfo/nml
08:44:04  <andythenorth> but not quite
08:44:24  <andythenorth> so SELF / PARENT exist, as well as special cases like ‘next vehicle’
08:45:15  * andythenorth should confuse the implementation in the newgrf inside openttd and the implementation in the compiler :P
08:45:16  <andythenorth> oops
08:45:34  <Alberth> sorry, but I have to type some pages of text now
08:45:36  <Alberth> :)
08:45:47  <Alberth> so many newgrf processing things :)
08:49:11  <andythenorth> yexo deliberately left out templating and such
08:49:22  <andythenorth> to wait and see how nml was used
08:49:35  <andythenorth> now we have evidence :)
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08:55:28  <andythenorth> Alberth: if global switches were banned, or made a special case, a lot of the switch management could be actually hidden away :P
08:55:54  <andythenorth> as ultimately it’s just going to write out 00 02 or 00 FF or whatever, local to a specific action 3 chain :P
08:56:06  <andythenorth> (action 3 -> action 2 chain)
08:57:04  * andythenorth opens a grf in a text editor
08:57:22  <Alberth> gives a bit of a garbled text :)
08:57:52  <andythenorth> ha
08:58:06  <andythenorth> I assume that encodes instructions or something as codepoints
08:58:16  * andythenorth well out of depth
08:58:35  <Alberth> quite possible :)
09:01:42  <andythenorth> bbl, work
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09:19:50  <Bob__> hi
09:20:05  <Bob__> us the free graphics for openTTD the same as the ones from the original game??
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09:21:54  <Zuu> Hmm, I make al sorts of noob mistakes. Trying to transport oil from a refinary to the oil wells.. :-)
09:23:00  <planetmaker> back
09:23:29  <planetmaker> hehe, Zuu :) That's industry 5.0. Getting the ressources back to the place they originated from back then
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09:23:55  <Bob__> could somebody explain the free graphics for me?
09:23:59  <planetmaker> Bob__, not exactly sure what you ask, but every graphics base sets can be used and they're exchangable
09:24:30  <Zuu> Base sets contain no game modifications, only graphics.
09:24:32  <planetmaker> graphics are best explained by simply looking at them
09:24:57  <Bob__> who makes the free graphics and is it similar to the original?
09:25:33  <planetmaker> people make them (the readme will tell you). And they provide sprites for everything as well. Of course they're not identical or it would be  blunt copy and copyright violation
09:26:01  <planetmaker> so really: just *look* at them. And judge yourself
09:26:13  <planetmaker> you can have them all and change it ingame
09:26:25  <planetmaker> the baseset which you use
09:26:30  <Bob__> is there a way to easily compare them?
09:26:41  <planetmaker> yes. start openttd. and see!
09:26:46  <Bob__> also is the name of train changed?
09:26:48  <Zuu> Open download content window and dowload all
09:27:04  <planetmaker> all base set. All NewGRF might be a bit much :)
09:27:22  <Zuu> Yes, I ment all base sets. But good you clarified. :-)
09:27:47  <planetmaker> luckily there's no "download all" button, though :)
09:27:51  <Zuu> It will use some bandwith for the 32 bit sets. So if you are low on bandwith, here is a list of all available base sets on bananas:
09:28:23  <planetmaker> bob you might get an impression and comparison from the titlegame competition screenshots:
09:30:02  <Bob__> what's the difference between basesets and newgrf?
09:30:39  <Zuu> NewGRFs explained:
09:31:18  <Zuu> Base set is a pure graphics file with all essential graphics needed to even start the game.
09:31:44  <Zuu> Eg. it contains a bitmap font used to display text when no ttf font is defined.
09:32:06  * planetmaker --> lunch. Laters :)
09:32:07  <Zuu> It contain GUI icons, but also graphics for default vehicles, industries etc.
09:32:21  <Zuu> planetmaker: Good idea :-)
09:32:48  <Alberth> hmm, already had that :(
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09:37:47  <Zuu> Hmm, the wiki stll call it avdanced settings. s/advanced settings/settings/g would be good, but I guess some work.
09:39:10  <Alberth> wiki is terribly outdated
09:47:30  <Bob__> how do i change the volume in game??
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09:57:32  <Alberth> I usually change the volume of the computer
09:58:14  <Alberth> isn't there a music icon somewhere in the menu bar???
09:58:20  <Alberth> don't remember exactly
09:58:32  <Zuu> There is a loundspeaker icon in OpenGFX.
09:58:48  <Bob__> so i have to be in game to do it, cant do it from the start menu??
09:59:05  <Zuu> No I don't think that is possible.
09:59:17  <Zuu> You can always do it at system level in your OS.
09:59:49  <Zuu> At least Windows 7 has a per program volume control.
10:01:34  <Bob__> what newgrf should i get?
10:02:39  <Zuu> Depends on what type of game you like to play.
10:02:44  <Zuu> And what you like.
10:03:11  <Zuu> Complexity or simple, specific country, etc.
10:03:25  <Bob__> i want a nice graphics set
10:03:38  <Bob__> which one is a good 32bit?
10:04:03  <peter1138> There is no good 32bpp set.
10:06:15  <Bob__> is there a good 8bit one ?
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10:12:07  <Bob__> why dont i see any server when i press 'find server' in multiplayer??
10:15:00  <Alberth> old openttd version?
10:15:59  <Alberth> many newgrfs have nice graphics, however, each is typically tuned towards a kind of play style
10:17:19  <Bob__> why doesnt multiplayer work???
10:17:44  <Alberth> ie "make massive transport system" has powerful cheap engines, "realistic play" has all the zillion engines of the region they represent, "hard play" has very expensive engines
10:18:22  <Alberth>   <-- this is what exists for multi-player
10:18:37  <Alberth> do you have matching openttd version?
10:18:38  <planetmaker> Bob__, multiplayer obviously works for many people... so either you use a 'wrong' version or your network is not proper
10:19:03  <peter1138> lan/internet button?
10:19:22  <Bob__> i use 1.5.1 version
10:19:37  <Bob__> oh it's the 'advertised' option lol
10:19:47  <Eddi|zuHause> <Zuu> Not sure how it would detect that the new cargo is delivered to a different location. <-- a possible solution for that: 1) you offer a subsidy along with the goal, 2) the subsidy records how much cargo was transported while it is active, 3) upon finishing the subsidy, you test if cargo amount is at least X, and mark the goal as fulfilled
10:19:48  <Bob__> isn't newGRF mean graphics?
10:20:07  <planetmaker>
10:20:13  <planetmaker> grf = game ressource file
10:20:21  <planetmaker> graphics are only one ressource among others
10:20:51  <Alberth> stats are the resources with a bigger impact on game play :)
10:21:12  <Eddi|zuHause> <Bob__> why dont i see any server when i press 'find server' in multiplayer?? <-- often this is because your firewall is too aggressive with UDP packages
10:22:14  <peter1138> *packets
10:23:04  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i treat these words as synonyms
10:23:09  <peter1138> They're not.
10:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause> they are.
10:23:14  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Interesting idea. Though the API as far as I can see doesn't allow reading amount of cargo transported for a subsidy. But yes, you can use it to check that at least 1 cargo was transported.
10:23:18  <Zuu>
10:23:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: yes, the game currently does not record that number, but it should be fairly easy to do
10:24:00  <peter1138>
10:25:02  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that sounds like nonsense
10:25:15  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, they're not synonyms in computing, at all.
10:26:08  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: german manages just fine without this totally arbitrary distinction
10:26:14  <peter1138> English isn't German.
10:26:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it is
10:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> except it has totally simplified grammar and totally blown out of proportion vocabulary :p
10:28:09  <Bob__> all words are made up, therefore, it is pointless to assert that a word means a certain thing, any assertion is equivalent to "i will only recognise this definition" and is mostly based on stubborn refusal and "kids these days" mentality
10:28:23  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause:  so you have Java packets ?  :)
10:28:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i haven't used java in ages
10:29:11  <Alberth> :)
10:29:30  <Alberth> it's backward compatible to the extreme :p
10:30:36  <Bob__> what does 12/50 - 15/15 mean in the clients column on the multiplayer window?
10:30:58  <Alberth> 12 of 50, 15 of 15
10:31:42  <Alberth> so there is no company free for you to play with
10:31:51  <Bob__> whats the first number mean?
10:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Bob__: number of players - number of companies
10:32:04  <Bob__> oh ok
10:32:12  <Bob__> so the first one can only watch??
10:32:39  <Eddi|zuHause> you can watch, or join another person's company (if they let you)
10:32:43  <Alberth> unless you get invited, or know the password of a company
10:32:54  <Bob__> oh ok
10:32:56  <Bob__> thx
10:33:20  <Alberth> given there are fewer clients than companies, some maybe free for taking over, but that depends on the server rules
10:36:09  <V453000> holy shit I managed to write replacenew block for first try on my own :D
10:36:13  <V453000> wtf is happenign
10:36:28  <V453000> hm cant type though
10:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> black magic! witch! burn him!
10:37:41  <planetmaker> V453000, clearly the typos moved from your code to your irc output ;)
10:37:50  <Alberth> :D
10:37:53  <planetmaker> that's wtf was happening :P
10:37:54  <V453000> haha :)
10:40:43  <V453000> made it :>
10:40:56  <V453000> the offset was a bit confusing but after seeing first issue, it got me :D
10:43:17  <Alberth> before you know it, you understand what you're doing :p
10:44:57  <V453000> I wouldnt go that far to say such things :P
10:49:02  <Alberth> no worries, there is plenty of other fish in the sea to try :)
10:52:48  <V453000> XD
10:53:10  <Zuu> Hmm, my leveled up factory produces goods without input :-)
10:53:18  <V453000> big level up
10:53:22  <planetmaker> :)
10:53:32  <planetmaker> Achievement unlocked: producing stuff out of thin air :)
10:54:11  <Zuu> Need to fix so that it actually check if goal is completed in order to level up too. :-)
10:54:15  * andythenorth wonders where frosch is going with the JSON idea
10:55:13  * andythenorth had an idea about utility grid or such
10:55:30  <andythenorth> purely as a convention managed by GS
10:55:55  <andythenorth> ‘this industry provides water / gas / electricity to the [local | map-wide] grid’
10:56:08  <andythenorth> ‘this industry would like to be supplied with water / gas / electricity’
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11:02:23  <Zuu> Hmm, I miss my AI function SendToDepotForSelling when I play using GUI :-)
11:02:58  <Zuu> It takes care of even turning vehicles with speed zero around (likely in a queue)
11:03:45  <Zuu> And it marks up the vehicle that it should be sold, so that the depot cleaning procedure will sell it automatically later on. :-)
11:04:50  <Alberth> :)
11:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause> cheat yourself into an AI company :p
11:05:12  <Alberth> make a sign "sell vehicle #123"
11:05:15  <Zuu> Or I should just let an AI test the GS.
11:05:27  <Eddi|zuHause> $someone arbitrarily disabled AI support for human company
11:06:19  <Alberth> yeah, AIs don't like to be too close to humans
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11:30:18  <Zuu> Now this game is a bit wierd. BusyBee goals 'transport X amount to Y' causes industry Y to be leveled up. Also these so called secondary industries are producing base production by default and production is increased when they are leveled up. :-p
11:30:40  <andythenorth> ha
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11:32:33  <Zuu> Goals 'transport X amount from Y' doesn't seem to be implemented in base BusyBee. But if my fork would do that, and the NewGRF is changed to only alter primary industries, that may make a bit more sense. :-)
11:32:56  <andythenorth> nah, BB has only one goal type :)
11:33:00  <andythenorth> 'transport to’
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11:33:13  <Zuu> Though to can be either industry or town.
11:33:35  * andythenorth wonders if there is a case for a GS library for goals
11:33:43  <andythenorth> abstracting the BB Goal class or such
11:33:52  <andythenorth> dunno much about GS
11:34:48  <Zuu> I know krinn like the idea that a GS should be written as a library and then a tiny GS that use this library. This to allow mixing GSes easier.
11:35:10  <Zuu> At least when it come to utility GSes.
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11:35:52  <andythenorth> might be interesting
11:36:09  <andythenorth> dunno, if it got too much framework, and bureacracy then it’s boring :)
11:36:15  <Zuu> But then he do wierd things like overriding API methods with his own variants with side effects.. :-)
11:36:23  <andythenorth> if I have to call a factory class first, and then use it to create other classes, then I might get bored :P
11:36:37  <Zuu> Eg. his variant of build bridge will record were all bridges are in an array.
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11:36:57  <planetmaker> it sounds compelling to me. But there was some argument against that, but I forgot which. It was rather 'design/conceptual not wanted' than 'not possible'
11:37:26  <Zuu> I think the idea was the GSes should be simple.
11:37:38  <planetmaker> I think the problem was along the lines of "what to do when two parts try to modify the same thing in different ways"
11:37:56  <planetmaker> And then we'll end up in a worse hell than we are with NewGRF compatibility :)
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11:38:46  <Zuu> Yep, and instead we put it on someones task to merge two GSes in one. One way to make it easier for someone who would like to do that is to offer eg. NoCarGoal as a GS library and then have a very slimmed NoCarGoal GS that just use that library.
11:39:11  <Zuu> Then if someone want to combine two such GSes that are a library + gs, you load both libraries and hope they don't conflict. :-)
11:39:18  <planetmaker> yes. So that combining different things is an easy programming task
11:39:34  <planetmaker> are there gs libs? there are ,yes?
11:39:40  <Zuu> But it is still up to someone to combine it and test out and then release as one GS on bananas.
11:39:54  <Zuu> There are GS libraries.
11:40:06  <andythenorth> my view is distorted probably
11:40:11  <andythenorth> I think of it like python modules
11:40:23  <andythenorth> where there are vast numbers of well defined modules that can be imported
11:40:25  <Zuu> But not for every GS, as mentioned above.
11:40:27  <andythenorth> some good, some bad :P
11:40:42  <Zuu> It is mostly things like SCP, SuperLib, ServerGS and ToyLib IIRC.
11:41:06  <Zuu> And road pathfinder, A*, and some data structures.
11:41:07  <planetmaker> yeah, right. Well, so the idea of a slim GS with fat libs is already viable, though
11:41:21  <planetmaker> ho, I should know since the doxygen stuff :D
11:41:29  <Zuu> hehe :-)
11:42:04  <planetmaker> I made a build job for each lib. And yes... there were GS libs among those :P
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11:42:55  <planetmaker>,%20GS,%20Libraries%29/
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11:44:05  <Zuu> There is also the list of libraries on the bananas web site:
11:46:36  <planetmaker> indeed :)
11:49:31  <V453000> issues with holes in ground sprites is a problem I have no clue how to solve
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11:53:40  <planetmaker> holes in ground sprites?
11:54:03  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:59:58  <V453000> like at the edges
12:00:09  <V453000> things not connecting properly
12:00:11  <V453000> for some reason
12:01:00  <V453000> hm
12:01:09  <V453000> guess I fucked up some offset I just dont see how yet
12:02:30  <planetmaker> oh, you mean at tile borders?
12:02:38  <planetmaker> there... should be no holes :P
12:02:57  <planetmaker> anti-aliasing might introduce some if it makes the result smaller / partially transparent
12:07:11  <V453000> no, I have no antialiasing on edges
12:07:20  <V453000> this is just something moved, but in a very weird way
12:10:51  <planetmaker> what's the exact width and height of the ground tiles?
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12:45:09  <V453000> they are fine, there are some issues with some sloped  things, researching what is going on
12:46:17  <V453000> ah got it
12:46:18  <V453000> was x offset
12:46:23  <V453000> I forgot I touched that XD
12:46:59  <V453000> would be great if the game drew black or some well visible colour in case of such holes
12:47:03  <V453000> :)
12:47:10  <V453000> is quite tough to debug now
12:47:51  <V453000> k fixed :>
12:48:34  <Alberth> load a paused game, and don't move it?
12:48:41  <V453000> good point
12:48:43  <V453000> but yeah :P
13:09:45  <V453000>
13:09:49  <V453000> x2 zoom :)
13:10:04  <V453000> there is a lot of things missing and things needing improvement, but :)
13:10:36  <V453000> also, SpotTheYeti :P
13:11:24  <V453000> ... I might search for a way to keep the tunnel look more "flat" instead of being so elevated in compare to the actual ground
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13:16:57  <Zuu> Tunnels is always a problem. I didn't looked too much on them until you mentioned them.
13:17:36  <V453000> they are a gigantic problem in 3D
13:17:40  <V453000> in pixel drawing they are kind of fine :D
13:18:39  <V453000> omg posted on forums
13:18:43  * V453000 goes burn himself
13:18:55  <Zuu> My first thought is that the light setting is a bit dark. But then, in the winter it get dark early and if this is a cloudy day, then the light setting is quite fine.
13:19:15  <V453000> the brighter bits will make it look fine
13:19:25  <V453000> vehicles/buildings/industries will be colourful
13:19:55  <Zuu> I like the touch of light in tunnels. And if active parts in the game are brighter, then it can probably look very nice.
13:19:57  <V453000> but yeah maybe a little bit brighter would not harm
13:20:03  <V453000> yarr
13:20:11  <V453000> the idea is to make the important things stand out
13:20:16  <Zuu> Well, no a dark background can make the important things light up more.
13:20:19  <V453000> like, if you zoom out on the map you can clearly see where are industries
13:21:57  <Zuu> It will probably be very nice
13:22:26  <V453000> I love it so far
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13:23:50  <Zuu> Great. It is most important that you like it. :-)
13:23:50  <V453000> omg frog
13:23:55  <V453000> exactly :D
13:24:00  <V453000> got bored with RAWR
13:27:51  <frosch123> hoi
13:28:02  <Zuu> hello frosch123
13:28:30  <V453000> frog how do you like this
13:28:42  <V453000> second rocky tileset is coded but not visible yet :PP
13:29:18  <frosch123> the horizontal track looks weird
13:29:26  <frosch123> the rails blend in too much with the background
13:29:35  <V453000> that is kind of the point
13:29:46  <V453000> + there will be fences
13:29:52  <frosch123> wut? there is light in the tunnel :p
13:30:08  <V453000> diagonal tracks look wtf in general, yeah :|
13:30:10  <V453000> sure! :)
13:30:31  <V453000> tunnels are secret yeti gold mines
13:30:36  <frosch123> what is the yeti driving?
13:30:41  <frosch123> some harvester?
13:30:52  <V453000> no it is cutting down the tree
13:31:04  <frosch123> oh, it's chainsaw?
13:31:09  <V453000> aye
13:31:11  <frosch123> left-handed yetis :p
13:31:16  <V453000> when it animates it is clear what is going on :P
13:31:41  <V453000> idk I hold chainsaw either way, as it fits the situation
13:31:52  <V453000> but yeah yetis are confused out of their minds
13:32:23  <frosch123> i see, they cut the trees comfortably at hip level
13:32:37  <V453000> yeah easy
13:33:31  <frosch123> it's weird that almost everything in that screenshot is white/grey, except the helmet :p
13:33:43  <V453000> yeah that is the fun part :)
13:33:58  <frosch123> will the D12 tree get digits?
13:34:04  <V453000> D12 tree? :D
13:34:10  <frosch123> no, it's a d20
13:34:23  <V453000> ah that one
13:34:27  <V453000> no :>
13:34:31  <V453000> maybe in toyland
13:35:12  <Alberth> looks moon-ish to me
13:35:34  <Alberth> but nice grey with white-ish sprinkles :)
13:35:35  <Zuu> or just a dull winter day
13:36:12  <V453000> mhm :)
13:36:39  <Alberth> but who wants to play in winter if you can play at the moon?
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13:36:58  <frosch123> lol @ forum guy who registered 2 weeks ago as "garfiled" and now wants to change name to "garfield" :p
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13:38:07  <Alberth> :)
13:38:11  <V453000> not bad
13:39:17  <SpComb> likely to cause mass confusion
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13:43:12  <Zuu> frosch123: Further more, his only post seem to be the post in which the user want to be renamed. That said, acounts are useful too for reading history.
13:46:52  <V453000> btw it is fun how the small amount of colours reduces file size
13:47:56  <Alberth> :)
13:48:56  <Alberth> greyscale is even better, all channels have the same value
13:49:16  <V453000> this is not entirely grayscale, it is slightly tinted into yellow but I might desaturate it some further
13:49:22  <andythenorth> V453000: it is looking nice
13:49:27  <andythenorth> tints ftw btw
13:49:29  <V453000> thanks andythesouth :)
13:49:40  * andythenorth does a lot of near-monochrome UI design
13:49:45  <andythenorth> but with one or two key tints
13:49:45  <V453000> :)
13:49:50  <V453000> yeah
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13:52:04  <andythenorth> V453000 :P
13:53:10  <V453000> yeah :) nice
13:53:29  <V453000> I will cut your fingers off andy :)
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13:54:33  <andythenorth> you’ll need very long scissors
13:54:40  <andythenorth> from prague or such
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14:01:18  <ade> thanks to planetmaker
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14:08:23  <V453000> andythenorth: the page said it not me
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14:59:18  <andythenorth> where is cat though
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15:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause> in your page, cutting off your fingers
15:22:00  <frosch> do you expect him to read the logs for that?
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15:35:45  <Terkhen> hello
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16:31:32  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch: yes :p
16:31:40  <Eddi|zuHause> (as i do for this :p)
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17:45:27  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27338 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/frisian.txt (2015-07-24 19:45:18 +0200 )
17:45:28  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:29  <DorpsGek> frisian - 8 changes by BAJansen
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17:53:43  <andythenorth> still no cat
17:53:46  <andythenorth> nvm
17:54:10  <andythenorth> V453000: so is brixxxxxx replacing ogfx?
17:54:26  <andythenorth> including an 8bpp option, for those of us who refuse to
redraw all of FIRS :P
17:54:31  <V453000> no, it will probably have very specific style compared to everything else
17:54:40  <andythenorth> I think FIRS will fit right in
17:54:41  <andythenorth> tbh
17:54:51  <V453000> it will
17:55:03  <andythenorth> have you tested? o_O
17:55:09  <V453000> nope
17:55:11  <V453000> just know
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18:19:33  <andythenorth> pig train realisms
18:20:37  <V453000>
18:20:48  <V453000> 1:1 representation
18:21:36  <Zuu> Nice yeti variation on the train.
18:22:23  <V453000> actually I think that random is quite bad
18:22:29  <V453000> should be at least 5 kinds I think
18:22:52  <V453000> k there is 5
18:22:56  <V453000> but poor distribution :P
18:24:19  <Zuu> Hmm.. noise polution make my life hard.
18:26:05  <andythenorth> yours is more realisms than the photo V453000
18:26:11  <Zuu> I changed the imessenger.grf to only allow GS to control primaries. I also changed my Bee fork to level up industries when a town goal is completed for mail cargo. It then levels up all industries that are closest to that town. However, completing mail goals require many sources as mail production is low.
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18:26:33  <andythenorth> how is the mail goal defined?
18:26:45  <Zuu> It is the usual mail goal of Busy Bee.
18:27:00  <andythenorth> ah ok
18:27:01  <Zuu> I check if cargo has town effect mail.
18:27:25  <andythenorth> yeah, also BB has a wide range of possible values for the cargo delivered goal
18:27:34  <andythenorth> mail goals can take years :)
18:27:51  <andythenorth> I wondered about transporting 50% of the mail in a town
18:28:07  <andythenorth> using the town stats, if GS can read them
18:28:14  <Zuu> GS can read them.
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18:30:57  <Zuu> If the GRF is possible to make so that secondaries retain the normal function (in that the output is a factor of input), but GS can improve the output/input ratio, then Bee-fork could level up receiving industry again.
18:32:05  <andythenorth> that could be done
18:32:21  <andythenorth> for (not FIRS) it’s quite trivial I think
18:32:39  <andythenorth> set a multiplier in a register, and use it during 256 tick production cb
18:32:50  <Zuu> I think I for short term will allow any town goal to level up industries. Then try to set up some repository or at least update published versions.
18:32:52  <andythenorth> for FIRS, which already combines cargos in a ratio, it would be tricky
18:33:13  <andythenorth> Zuu: sounds good...proof of concept
18:33:38  <Zuu> That is what I like doing. Prof of concepts. :-)
18:33:48  <Zuu> Just look at the Tutorial AI for example :-D
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18:35:45  <Zuu> As for the name of the Bee-fork, I currently use ProducingBee.
18:37:09  <Zuu> But I'm open for suggestions.
18:38:14  <Zuu> BeeProductive?
18:39:14  <Zuu> BeeProduction
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18:48:44  <andythenorth> BeeProductive :D
18:48:44  <andythenorth> ha
18:49:04  <andythenorth> we can make another fork for BeeLine
18:49:07  <andythenorth> BeeHappy
18:49:22  <andythenorth> BeeTheChangeYouWantToSee :P
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18:51:30  <Zuu> Hmm, played 28 game years to complete my mail goal only to catch an error in the script. I think next time I'll cheat a bit and make the script level up goals that has timed out. :-)
18:52:05  <andythenorth> he :)
18:54:31  <Zuu> At least I didn't forgot to make bundle. :-p
18:56:23  <Zuu> Oh.. my NewGRF allow me to fund battery farms in tropic. But at least they don't show up on random.
18:56:23  <andythenorth> V453000: I think lukasz1985 is going to make his own set
18:56:55  <Zuu> Hmm, the battery farm produces fruit. :-)
18:58:50  <V453000> andythenorth: well lets see :)
18:58:53  <V453000> why do you think so?
18:59:12  <V453000> ah hate on both me and pikka :D :P
18:59:17  <Zuu> Btw, in BusyBee, there is a setting to set the goal timeout. Allowed range is 4 to 20 years. But the hard value is 3 years. So if I try to change it, I cannot get it back to 3 years other than removing the GS and adding it back again. :-)
18:59:19  <V453000> I like his comment, it is quite constructive
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19:04:28  <andythenorth> yes
19:04:31  <andythenorth> he’s an expert
19:05:06  <andythenorth> Zuu: thats unfortunate :)
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19:50:50  <supermop> yo
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20:06:38  <Terkhen> good night
20:13:53  * andythenorth -> bed
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20:44:25  <Wolf01> hi hi
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23:28:38  <Wolf01> 'night
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