Log for #openttd on 2nd August 2015:
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01:58:53  <supermop> hi all
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08:33:06  <Wolf01> hi hi
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09:44:28  <fjb> Moin
09:45:04  <frosch123> hola
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09:46:16  <fjb> Quak frosch123
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11:00:55  <argoneus> hm
11:01:01  <argoneus> I just realized
11:01:10  <argoneus> that I don't need to build super optimized networks
11:01:18  <argoneus> I just make networks that work and when they choke I rebuild parts of it
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11:11:37  <peter1138> don't tell V
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11:12:56  <argoneus> why
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12:01:04  <argoneus> so for pax
12:01:15  <argoneus> I want a line of X stations where trains go back and forth
12:01:21  <argoneus> and have multiple lines like that?
12:01:26  <argoneus> and a bus network in the city or so
12:01:39  <argoneus> so like a network of multi-station lines
12:02:07  <argoneus> or do I want to have like A->B->C->D->A
12:02:42  <Alberth> it's hard to know what your mind wants :)
12:03:46  <Alberth> in the latter case, I'd also add  A->D->C->B->A trains
12:04:11  <argoneus> im just wondering how to make a proper pax network
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12:09:39  <Alberth> both seem very reasonable solutions to me
12:10:08  <argoneus> well
12:10:14  <argoneus> when I have A B C D A
12:10:23  <argoneus> what does the train do when it reaches D
12:10:26  <argoneus> ._.
12:10:48  <argoneus> it should be a circle
12:10:49  <Alberth> I read that as a cycle
12:11:11  <argoneus> but adding new stations to the cycle sounds painful
12:11:16  <Alberth> which implies A and D should be somewhat close-ish to each other
12:11:17  <argoneus> in which case
12:11:28  <argoneus> i dont add stations, i make new cycles
12:11:45  <argoneus> does that sound valid
12:12:08  <Alberth> I think you need not too large cycles, more cycles helps there too
12:12:29  <argoneus> i can also chain cycles
12:12:38  <argoneus> so from a O cycle
12:12:44  <argoneus> I can make a 8
12:12:49  <argoneus> if you understand?
12:12:56  <Alberth> if you have a string of small villages, then back and forth between A and D seems like the only solution to me
12:13:15  <argoneus> back and forth or a cycle?
12:13:25  <Alberth> make two independent cycles?  seems nice
12:13:54  <Alberth> if you have A at one end, and D at the other end, cycles don't seem useful to me
12:14:13  <argoneus> hmm
12:14:20  <argoneus> but then the train has to go all the way back
12:14:28  <argoneus> and mirrored orders are a pain
12:14:47  <Alberth> yeah, so back and forth between A and D would work best
12:15:04  <argoneus> what about B C?
12:15:11  <argoneus> or does my train do A B C D C B A
12:15:12  <Alberth> nah, just make the train stop at every station, and let it run between A and D
12:15:38  <argoneus> is there an easy way to do that without mirroring orders manually?
12:16:07  <Alberth> yep, go to A, go to D (disable non-stop)
12:16:19  <argoneus> hmm
12:16:19  <Alberth> make sure the train cannot avoid B and C
12:16:35  <argoneus> will cargodist figure it out?
12:16:45  <argoneus> oh wait
12:16:46  <Alberth> afaik it does/should
12:16:52  <argoneus> it will make implicit orders
12:16:56  <argoneus> so it should
12:18:01  <Eddi|zuHause> as long as it does not chaotically avoid B and C
12:18:07  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. by going to depot
12:18:16  <Eddi|zuHause> so better make an explicit depot order
12:21:45  <argoneus> wouldn't a cycle be better though
12:22:01  <Alberth> just try both, and compare?
12:22:06  <argoneus> if I have A-B-C-D-C-B-A, then I will need to manage train separation a lot
12:22:21  <argoneus> because when a train is in D, A will be full of pax
12:22:32  <argoneus> and timetabling trains seems like a pain
12:23:00  <Alberth> simplest form of timetabling is to make a big gap in your track blocks
12:23:27  <Alberth> next train won't enter the block after the previous has left
12:23:36  <argoneus> oh
12:23:39  <argoneus> so separate signals?
12:23:41  <argoneus> a lot
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12:23:50  <Alberth> so they are always "big gap length" apart from each other
12:23:56  <Alberth> no, a lot of no signals
12:24:21  <Alberth> one straight track of 20-30-40 tiles wtihout signals
12:24:22  <argoneus> that's problematic though
12:24:29  <argoneus> because the train will be waiting in the gap
12:24:32  <argoneus> while it could still be loading people
12:24:55  <Alberth> if it's waiting, it's early
12:25:37  <Alberth> you have any doubt that your train is not going to be full for 100% all the time??  :)
12:26:48  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: if the signal method is too crude for you, you can always switch to timetabling
12:27:33  <argoneus> well
12:27:35  <argoneus> I guess you're right
12:27:47  <argoneus> I should get a pax game save
12:27:49  <argoneus> and check things out
12:28:14  <Alberth> try it, and adapt to improve :)
12:28:40  <Alberth> testing whether your idea actually works is half the fun :)
12:29:03  <Eddi|zuHause> <argoneus> wouldn't a cycle be better though <- no, because circles are terrible for cargodist, and you still need to worry about separation
12:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> other people's savegames are usually terrible
12:31:27  <argoneus> i could look at coop savegames
12:31:38  <argoneus> but with that sort of planning it won't help me much on a small scale
12:32:08  <Alberth> luckily, everybody thinks other people cannot make a train network :p
12:33:31  <Eddi|zuHause> coop savegames are especially terrible :p
12:34:52  <Eddi|zuHause> "i want to learn woodworking" ... "here take a look at this industrial scale machine"
12:36:28  <Alberth> true tycoons always do things at grand scale :D
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12:54:57  <Audiopulse> Hi there
12:57:18  <argoneus> hi
12:59:54  <Audiopulse> sad_dude - thanks for the changes. My first impression is they really do well with the whole package.
13:00:10  <Audiopulse> From what ive seen the trams are even in good balance with the trucks
13:09:03  <Audiopulse> There is something else that crossed my mind, that might beg for a try:
13:11:57  <Audiopulse> I kind of like how the game rewards you with way higher outputs when you deliver all the required resources instead of just one. In the past I just slammed factories with, lets say all coal I could find but cared less about glass, gravel etc.
13:13:19  <Audiopulse> It kind of actually makes you feel like you really own the factory as you have to tend to it nicely.
13:15:38  <Audiopulse> Now, what if every factory produced a little bit even with no supplies at all (Only some do atm) but to further boost your output, you would have to fund supplying factories yourself? Primary resources like forests, Farms, Fishing-grounds etc. would still be there from the start, of course.
13:16:48  <Audiopulse> The idea behind that would be you would actively work on your chain and make sure you find a good place to settle with amp supplies in the first place.
13:18:11  <Audiopulse> Now ... on the hind-sight it might just stretch out the gameplay too much and make it all too boring, but it may be worth a try.
13:31:06  <Audiopulse> Prices for new industries might have to be readjusted as well. I dont know if thats something you can do.
13:40:56  <Alberth> yes, use a basecost modification newgrf
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13:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> if you make a new industry set anyway, you can set the prices for each industry individually
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14:00:59  <argoneus> when you have a timetabled bus service
14:01:04  <argoneus> and you want to add another station
14:01:12  <argoneus> should you send all buses to depot and then autofill again or just autofill?
14:01:22  <argoneus> im wondering how to do this without breaking everyting
14:01:24  <argoneus> thing*
14:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i would just estimate the time and put it in manually
14:05:56  <Eddi|zuHause> but you have to put new vehicles into the gap and/or redistribute the start times anyway, so the whole thing gets disrupted either way
14:07:27  <argoneus> hmm
14:16:57  <argoneus> is there a hotkey to change time in timetable?
14:20:50  <Audiopulse> Not true... keep CTRL pressed while you click "Starting Date" and it automatically accounts for the number of vehicles
14:21:49  <Audiopulse> its been a while since i got myself into timetables, but i just CTRL-pressed Autofill, let it do its magic and then CTRL-press Start-date
14:22:10  <Audiopulse> Worked like a charm back in 1.4 - havent really used it since then.
14:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> in theory, yes. but there may be ways how the separation puts dates way into the future and vehicles just keep clogging the start station
14:31:42  <Audiopulse> No sucht thing as a foolproof mechanic in TTD, huh? :D
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14:48:47  <argoneus> hm
14:48:51  <argoneus> timetabling trains with implicit orders is a pain
14:49:05  <argoneus> i cant figure out how to separate passenger trains going through several stations
14:49:13  <argoneus> someone here told me to make very sparse signals
14:49:17  <argoneus> but that seems kinda awkward
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14:55:38  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could also make the orders explicit
15:12:39  <Eddi|zuHause>  <Audiopulse> No sucht thing as a foolproof mechanic in TTD, huh? :D <-- if you make something foolproof, someone invents a bigger fool
15:13:33  <argoneus> I wish there was an easy way to mirror orders
15:13:41  <argoneus> like A->B->C->D->C->B->A
15:13:42  <argoneus> :(
15:14:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. make one
15:14:37  <Audiopulse> True, eddi.
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16:03:28  <argoneus> timetabling is still magic
16:03:42  <argoneus> is there an easy way to see how long it takes a vehicle to load/unload everything?
16:03:45  <argoneus> worst case
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16:11:21  <Alberth> worst case is easy, that's "inifinite"
16:11:38  <argoneus> well
16:11:40  <argoneus> uh
16:11:43  <argoneus> can't argue with that
16:12:57  <Alberth> I tend to use a few hundred ticks, together with the slack, it works out nicely, in general
16:24:49  <Sylf> some slow loading train takes 1000+ ticks, especially passenger/main trains that do both unloading and loading at a same station
16:27:33  <Wolf01> why does the postgres upgrade guide tells one to do stuff which does not even exists in the face of the planet?
16:28:50  <peter1138> Like what?
16:29:03  <Wolf01> like running a shell with "postgres" user
16:29:08  <peter1138> sudo -u postgres -s
16:29:21  <Wolf01> I don't have any postgres user :|
16:29:35  <peter1138> then you don't have postgres
16:29:44  <Wolf01> it works like a charm
16:29:58  <peter1138> running as root or something horrible?
16:31:11  <Wolf01> no, just the plain basic install, I didn't even touch the pg_hba.conf as I only need to run it locally
16:31:45  <peter1138> plain basic install makes a postgres user on all my systems
16:33:16  <Wolf01> if it needs to configure some stuff, the installer must configure that stuff, the installer let me just chose a password to connect to the server engine, but I don't have any system user
16:33:40  <peter1138> are you doing something horrible like running it on windows then?
16:33:46  <Wolf01> yeah
16:33:47  <peter1138> though even then i think it made a user
16:33:52  <peter1138> but yeah, nobody uses that
16:33:55  <Wolf01> no, it doesn't
16:34:09  <peter1138> everyone's all in love with sql server express on windows
16:34:19  <peter1138> all my postgreses are on debian of course
16:34:42  <Wolf01> last time I dumped all the databases and imported in the new engine, this time I wanted to try with pg_upgrade
16:39:14  <peter1138> dump is what i do
16:39:50  <Wolf01> it's what I'm doing that now too
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16:59:06  <peter1138> yeah, that's the surefire way of not losing everything
16:59:46  <peter1138> hmm, maybe i should consolidate my databases
16:59:58  <argoneus> argh
17:00:01  <argoneus> timetabling is so tedious and boring
17:00:04  <peter1138> i tend to just deploy a container for somethig and include its own postgres
17:00:10  <argoneus> after timetabling one big city I don't feel like doing passengers anymore
17:00:40  <peter1138> if i use a central server it'll be much easier to set up a replication slave, eg
17:03:30  <Wolf01> ok, restored all
17:06:14  <Wolf01> tomorrow I could start my new wonderful job as a freelance
17:45:20  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27358 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2015-08-02 19:45:14 +0200 )
17:45:21  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:22  <DorpsGek> catalan - 25 changes by juanjo
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18:14:02  <Eddi|zuHause> <argoneus> is there an easy way to see how long it takes a vehicle to load/unload everything? <-- each loading step is 40 ticks for trains and road vehicles (planes and ships are shorter), and while the size of the loading step is not listed in the buy menu, it's fairly easy to figure out. so capacity/(loading steps)*2*40 in ticks, or /74 for days
18:17:43  <argoneus> .).
18:17:45  <argoneus> ._. *
18:18:57  <Eddi|zuHause> default loading step is 5 pieces of cargo, btw
18:19:12  <Eddi|zuHause> but NewGRFs can freely change that
18:24:31  <frosch123> "Factorio's railway system works basically exactly the block signals in Open Traffic Tycoon Deluxe" <- unsubbed :p
18:25:10  <frosch123> "If you ever played that game you will find some elements also in Factorio. If not, you can learn from their documentation. " <- aw, should have copied the next sentence as well :)
18:25:48  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like someone who played each game for half an hour
18:26:07  <Eddi|zuHause> like journalists making an interview with you and then spelling your name wrong
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18:29:06  <Eddi|zuHause> also, shortening the sentences you made and thereby twisting the point you were trying to make
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21:10:37  <Audiopulse_> "Your computer is too slow to keep up with the server"
21:10:51  <Audiopulse_> Haha... did not expect that from a game as TT :D
21:11:46  <Taede> you'd be surprised how much a modern cpu can struggle
21:11:54  <FLHerne> Audiopulse_: OTTD can be a lot more resource-consuming than it looks
21:12:13  <ST2> [21:56:59] *** Audiopulse quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds) <<-- probably same dc that caused you ping timout here ^^
21:12:45  <ST2> and irc is lot lesser consummer that OpenTTD ^^
21:12:45  <Audiopulse_> Yeah, i saw it :9
21:12:48  <FLHerne> Audiopulse_: Remember that current maps can be 250x bigger than those in the original game
21:13:10  <FLHerne> Tens of times more vehicles
21:13:12  <Audiopulse_> yes yes - plus im playing on a Road-heavy server
21:13:35  <Audiopulse_> The culprit is probably the rendering im doing at the side.
21:14:22  <ST2> I guess it's all about: what happens ingame <-> what client gets/shows
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21:42:46  <Wolf01> 'night
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