Log for #openttd on 17th August 2015:
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08:14:07  <Wolf01> hi hi
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09:21:21  <blathijs> Anyone remember Netstorm, this supercool out-of-the-box rts-ish game? They're going for a remake of it:
09:42:57  <planetmaker> moin moin
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10:19:54  <Wolf01> which grf?
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11:14:48  <Celestar> good day peops
11:15:09  <Wolf01> o/
11:20:48  <openbu> hi
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11:27:53  <V453000> hy
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20:58:41  <argoneus> so uh I have a question
20:58:48  <argoneus> if someone here's played simutrans
20:58:53  <argoneus> is there anything you feel it has over ottd?
20:59:01  <argoneus> or is it p much the same game just done differently
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21:01:03  <argoneus> like openttd is basically from the 90s but it's pretty and looks nice
21:01:07  <argoneus> but simutrans just looks... old
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21:18:10  <Payl> Hi guys, is there a way to make conditional with train length? I wonder why it isn't option in 1.4 (and prob 1.5 aswell..?)
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21:23:23  <Eddi|zuHause> you can use platform length to sort by train length. a train will try to go to the platform it best fits in
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21:24:32  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a massive penalty for too short platforms, and a moderate penalty for too long platforms, and you can also customize it by too long and too long for per tile penalties through the console
21:26:31  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: Well in my case it's waypoint before station - there is buffering of incomming trains, and one of buffers can only accept trains up to X length
21:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> in my experience, waypoints before the station do not work well in combination with path signals
21:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> because you lose the pathfinder penalty for occupied platform (which is behind the waypoint, and thus not checked by the pathfinder at all)
21:29:35  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: Well i'm not as experienced as you probably :) I think it's more convinient to make two stations instead of one+waypoints... anyway, it won't help solve my problem: train can go to buffer it cant fit in and probably lock some quite some track..
21:30:26  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: also, why would i care about penalty for platforms if i use entry signals...
21:30:31  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's what i was trying to say. turn the buffer into a station, and use "go via" orders, to turn it into a waypoint
21:31:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: block signals circumvent the problem i mentioned, yes
21:31:32  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: well, since i have limited space there, i could only fit 3-level buffer, 1-level isn't enough :P
21:31:56  <Payl> so i have trains waiting in tunels and on bridge :P
21:32:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that may be a problem ;)
21:32:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the alternative is an overflow depot
21:32:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it will fit any number and length of trains
21:32:51  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: i probably will convert it to a bigger buffer that can fit all train lengths that arrive there anyway.. just wondering why isn't this option in game? :P
21:33:33  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: overflow depot wouldnt be fast enough probably, also would trains pile up there?
21:33:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the main problem is usually that either nobody has worked on it, or the solution is too complicated to set up or explain to people
21:34:06  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: well conditional orders are in game, and train speed, age is... so i dont get why not train length? :P
21:34:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the thing you're looking for would be called "routing restrictions"
21:35:23  <Payl> well, they would be very useful...
21:36:05  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: are you game dev by any chance? :P
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21:43:32  <Flygon> Everyone here is a game dev if you squint hard enough
21:43:36  <Flygon> Just don't ask me to code
21:43:46  <Flygon> My scripts once caused flamewars I am scared of bringing over to here
21:44:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm mentioned a few times in the commit logs, if that's what you mean. but i've never been an official developer
21:45:28  <Payl> Flygon: can i know this story plx? :PPP
21:45:49  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: next time we'll let you hit return ;)
21:46:00  <Flygon> Payl: Long story short - TASVideos has particular opinions as to what is good coding practice with regards to nested statements
21:46:07  <Flygon> This says a lot about how picky TASVideos is
21:46:21  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: well, since you are closer to community than me, tell me: why devs focus on bugfixing rather than on new features? Thats how it looks to me at least
21:46:37  <Flygon> Payl: Bugtesting new features is a pain in the ass
21:46:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i'll probably refuse :p
21:46:59  <Flygon> Shh, Eddi. Just silently nod and agree with me. I got this.
21:47:00  <Flygon> xP
21:47:02  <Payl> Flygon: well good coding practice is no rules for me :P It all depends on case
21:47:29  <Payl> Flygon: well, just implement feature - if it doesnt crash after 1h then push to trunk and wait for bug reports...
21:47:48  <Flygon> Even then, it depends on the feature...
21:47:56  <Flygon> EVERYONE wants flexible viaducts and subways
21:47:59  <Flygon> But that aint gonna happen
21:48:14  <Flygon> Nobody even agrees on how the GUI would work
21:48:19  <Payl> well, programable signals would be something new :P
21:48:20  <Flygon> Even if we all have a few ideas in our head
21:48:35  <Flygon> Ahh, not too familiar with programmable signals myself
21:48:56  <Payl> i dont think there is any new feature i would use since i started playing this game :P (1.2 i think)
21:49:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: with that strategy, the project would fall apart within months
21:49:23  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: well, isn't development to add new things?
21:50:01  <Eddi|zuHause> if you ever took a development class, they would tell you that 10% is coding new things, and 90% is maintaining the code you wrote previously
21:50:30  <Flygon> Heheh...
21:50:32  <Flygon> That's also true
21:50:50  <Rubidium> also... adding new things becomes significantly easier when you can drop support for old things
21:50:55  <Payl> well, this is true, but it doesnt mean why should focus on this 90% :P
21:51:19  <Flygon> Rubidium: The moment Flygon realizes OpenTTD has the same problems Windows has... xP
21:51:25  <Eddi|zuHause> 90% doesn't get less 90% by not focusing
21:51:28  <Rubidium> e.g. many issues can be solved by removing the ability to play against/with eachother and/or to save/load your games
21:51:41  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: well, but 10%=0 afaik? :P
21:52:02  <Payl> Rubidium: why would anyone want to save game?!
21:52:15  <Payl> Just run it in VM and suspend VM
21:52:36  <Flygon> Uhm
21:52:58  <Flygon> I can see where you're coming at, but that's not a very good solution
21:53:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: that's fine, if you discard the ability to update versions and play on with your old game
21:53:12  <Payl> well, that was a joke :P
21:53:47  <Payl> well, if the game was designed correctly, that adding something new on top of existing stuff should be possible "quite" painlessly
21:54:15  <Payl> i mean, it wont be supereasy, but if we dont want to add new things, why do we dev this anyway?
21:54:16  <Eddi|zuHause> that only works for new things that don't change any existing things
21:54:19  <Flygon> Payl, try not to shoot the hand that feeds you
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21:54:33  <Eddi|zuHause> which is about 0% of all the new things people want to add
21:54:43  <Flygon> Everyone that codes for this projects is a voluteer, doing this in their spare time x:
21:55:08  <Flygon> Sure, more work could be done, but I don't particulary see enough donations rolling in to pay for the developer's full time attention
21:55:10  <Payl> Flygon: thats the case for many projects that make huge leaps forward :P
21:55:13  <Flygon> Anyway
21:55:14  <Rubidium> Payl: you can have a well designed bungalow, but you can't add floors until it's a sky scraper... at some point you really need to redo the fundaments
21:55:18  <Flygon> I gotta disappear for several hours
21:55:19  <Flygon> Bye
21:56:07  <Payl> well, you dont seem to understand my point: My main point is: If you dont want to add new features, why dev this game?..
21:56:33  <Payl> developing is IMO to add new stuff and also fix broken stuff
21:56:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: the point is that the premise of your point is wrong
21:57:04  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: probably, but i just wonder why new things arent added
21:57:04  <Rubidium> Payl: improving a bungalow doesn't mean adding floors until it's a sky scraper. It's making small modifications so it becomes a better bungalow
21:57:22  <Eddi|zuHause> plenty of new stuff was added between 1.2 and 1.5. if you choose to ignore it, it's not our fault
21:57:41  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: what for example? I might be not informed enough
21:58:10  <Rubidium> i.e. some large features can't be added because that requires making OpenTTD not OpenTTD anymore (go from a bungalow to a sky scraper), whereas quite a few small features are added... but you'll often overlook them
21:58:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: look at the changelog for entries that begin with "-Feature"
21:58:49  <Rubidium> e.g. autorail/autoroad. You won't notice them, but you'll really miss them when they're gone (play really old versions and you'll know what I mean)
21:59:19  <Payl> Rubidium: probably it's easier to get used to new things than to admire them
21:59:40  <Payl> and this is very correct, openttd is quite a leap from ttd
22:00:08  <Payl> but i think i never had a openttd crash so IMO it's very stable
22:00:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: of course the biggest new features recently were CargoDist and More Height Levels
22:00:29  <Payl> Rubidium: i don't get why you think openttd is missing something..?
22:00:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: and those have had years to ripen from idea into a feature
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22:01:32  <Payl> well, this might be big for you guys, but im openttd nub! :P
22:01:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: "stability" isn't necessarily about it blowing up your computer
22:01:49  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: it's about crashing the game. I never had such problem.
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22:02:17  <Eddi|zuHause> for example, play multiplayer for 8 hours with the stable release, and then play multiplayer for 8 hours with one of the patch packs around
22:02:18  <Supercheese> also desyncs in multiplayer
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22:02:53  <Payl> well, desyncs are hard to notice sometimes, im not sure since i'm not openttd pro again
22:03:03  <Eddi|zuHause> patch packs exactly follow this strategy of "add features first, ask questions later"
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22:03:04  <Rubidium> Payl: I don't think that OpenTTD is missing anything, if I thought that I would have solved that issue
22:03:21  <glx> desyncs are easy to notice, but hard to fix ;)
22:03:33  <Payl> Rubidium: are there are any features you would like to see in game? :P
22:04:02  <Payl> glx: I would say both. Im not sure how bad desyncs get in openttd, but surely they are hard to fix
22:04:19  <glx> you are kicked out of the game
22:04:21  <Rubidium> Payl: not really
22:04:31  <Payl> glx: oh well :P
22:04:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: btw. a large part of the features in the recent years were under the hood changes for better modding ability. you won't ever notice these changes until a script or newgrf uses them to make something really awesome
22:05:09  <Payl> aha! there is problem! devs dont plan future of game.. jk, but prob it means something
22:05:44  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: well i messed around with newgrf and was amazed that game handless all my careless modifications
22:06:13  * Rubidium thinks the bungalow skyscraper metaphore isn't clear enough
22:06:26  <Payl> Rubidium: sry, im not native speaker :P
22:06:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: turn a car into a spaceship?
22:06:46  <Payl> you mean that you need to cover basics first?
22:07:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: no. that's a bad strategy usually
22:07:45  <Payl> well, then i dont get your metaphore :P
22:08:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: if you only ever cover bases, you never start the actual project
22:09:06  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: by basics i mean core of project.
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22:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: you need to cover small part of the basis, build the first level of the project, then revisit the basis, build the second level, etc.
22:09:54  <Eddi|zuHause> each added level requires you to revisit all the lower levels and the basis
22:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause> but after you're done with each level, you have a polished project for release
22:10:34  <glx> it's like opendune, now the basic stuff it done and it needs a full rewrite to be able to improve things ;)
22:10:38  <Rubidium> in any case, OpenTTD was never designed to be this large and feature-rich. After all, it was designed to be very much like TTD minus some bugs
22:10:38  <Payl> well, if your code is written correctly this only goes back X levels, but is correct for beggining projects
22:11:30  <Rubidium> so, imagine that version 0.1 of OpenTTD being a bungalow (a single floor house)
22:11:31  <Payl> Rubidium: true, openttd is now almost new game now.
22:12:15  <Payl> Rubidium: so, you mean you need to improve core of the game first?
22:12:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: what i mean is, the more levels you already have, the more work needs to be done before you can add a new level
22:12:27  <Rubidium> then we added a lot of features; in the bungalow case this would be adding more floors, but now we have reached the stage where we can't continue adding floors without redoing the fundament of the building
22:12:53  <Payl> Rubidium: yup, so it was going back to basics :P
22:13:05  * NGC3982_ does actually feel like playing some OTTD.
22:13:10  <Rubidium> i.e. from bungalow to a three story house might be possible without too many invasive changes to the fundament, but adding more floors requires replacing the fundament
22:13:33  <glx> we already rewrote huge parts (all the GUI code)
22:13:38  <Rubidium> now all these new features essentially add a new floor, making the whole thing fairly unstable even if it doesn't look like that
22:13:54  <Payl> oh, so now major game rewrite is being done?
22:14:17  <Rubidium> in any case, to add relatively big features, you basically need to start some stuff from scratch...
22:14:27  <Eddi|zuHause> major rewrites are never "done"
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22:14:55  <Payl> Rubidium: I understand, im dev myself so i understand you cant add new things unless game core supports it correctly
22:15:25  <Payl> and this would explain lack of features
22:15:40  <glx> usually when you want to add a big feature you need to rewrite many parts of the code to simplify/help the integration
22:15:43  <Rubidium> the only problem is, when you start stuff from scratch you want to be able to re-evaluate all design decisions, but many if not all are set in stone by NewGRF and AI/GS specifications
22:16:16  <Eddi|zuHause> what i said initially still holds, things like more conditional orders or routing restrictions are not really held back by "core" not supporting them, but rather by gui-design being insufficient
22:16:35  <Rubidium> so, either you drop support for a lot of existing content, or you don't do it, or ... you wait until someone has an incredibly good idea
22:16:46  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: don't forget the pathfinders
22:16:47  <Payl> Eddi|zuHause: well, what GUI limitation plays role here? train length is an int...
22:17:03  <glx> all full of magic voodoo :)
22:17:38  <Payl> Rubidium: well, there is never perfect solution. All solutions have their drawbacks and pros.
22:17:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Payl: it's not a matter of things being too limited, but there must be a clear design underneath, so it's not just bloated
22:18:11  <Rubidium> Payl: a vehicle is 8 pixels high, the top of the bridge is 8 pixels above the ground (for a single height level bridge), then there is catenary that needs to be above the vehicle but below the bridge...
22:18:15  <Payl> right, and right now i would imagine it's rather bloated
22:18:25  *** NGC3982_ is now known as NGC3982
22:18:55  <Rubidium> which is one of the reasons why a proper 3D engine doesn't work in OpenTTD's scale
22:19:16  <Rubidium> unless you say... okay, vehicles may only be 6 pixels high, but then you scrap essentially all graphics
22:19:25  <glx> a good example is variable daylength, many tried, noone had a real working solution
22:19:33  <Payl> well, making OpenTTD 3D isn't an option, it would be another game.
22:19:57  <Payl> glx: well, in my game i "fixed" it with cheatengine
22:20:16  <Payl> just froze day variable...
22:20:28  <Payl> it's not without it's problems, but good enough
22:20:34  <Rubidium> ah well, have fun with the discussion
22:20:50  <Rubidium> time to do something my body fancies doing
22:21:01  <Payl> Rubidium: I get your point, dont think that i deny your arguments :P
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22:22:09  <Payl> so, one more question: is stuff being reworked now? Because from Rubidium it sounds like waiting until stuff fixes itself? :P
22:22:25  <NGC3982> Yes, i rock!
22:22:43  <NGC3982> Logged on, joined a random network game, did something wrong, got kicked.
22:22:58  * NGC3982 returns to DS9.
22:23:17  <Payl> NGC3982: dont worry, you didnt get banned after all
22:25:52  <NGC3982> :p
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23:41:14  <Wolf01> 'night
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