Log for #openttd on 18th August 2015:
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00:15:15  <argoneus> dank memes
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01:15:32  <Flygon> Eh, you can make OTTD 3D enough. Just prerender a lot of shit and you're done. xP
01:19:06  <Eddi|zuHause> with this it was meant using a 3D engine to make it look like it currently looks (potentially speeding up drawing by offloading spritesorting to the graphics card)
01:22:31  <Flygon> Ooh
01:22:39  <Flygon> I thought all the sprites WERE handled by the GPU...
01:22:52  <Flygon> ...or am I assuming the wrong things of modern graphics hardware
01:23:10  <Flygon> Then again, I don't really know HOW 2D acceleration has ever worked on PC's...
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01:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause> no, all the sprites are handled by the CPU, and then a buffer is pushed to the GPU saying "this is how i want it to look. do it"
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01:44:07  <Flygon> Eddi: Hmm...
01:44:23  <Flygon> Has this ALWAYS been the case with PC?
01:45:33  <Flygon> (one sec, dishwasher)
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01:59:28  <Flygon> (back)
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02:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: at least for '90s PC games, this has always been the case
02:03:12  * Flygon nod
02:03:18  <Flygon> Alright, that would explain a lot
02:03:29  <Flygon> x3 Sorry, waaaay too used to thinking of things in console terms, y'know?
02:03:36  <Flygon> eg. hardware sprite ordering ect
02:04:09  <Eddi|zuHause> that was never needed for PC, as the CPU generally was fast enough to do that
02:04:43  <Flygon> Mm
02:04:56  <Flygon> Fast enough that the inefficiencies weren't a problem, aye
02:05:04  <Eddi|zuHause> consoles usually have way specced down CPUs
02:06:00  <Flygon> Well, that, and... rather bizarro rendering methods sometimes
02:06:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's backwards... people just got very creative with how to abuse the rendering methods that were available
02:07:01  <Flygon> The Sega CD, for example... doesn't so much help the Mega Drive scale sprites. So much as it gets fed tiles from the ROM or CD, scales them, then sends the scaled material to the VDP...
02:07:28  <Flygon> Which is, uhm. Well, for one thing, it consumes VDP tile space, hahaha
02:07:44  <Eddi|zuHause> that might well be an explanation of how the warp drive works...
02:07:59  <Flygon> I don't really know what they were thinking. Given there was other methods available of doing the same thing far more quickly...
02:08:01  <Flygon> Oh, erm...
02:08:03  <Flygon> Basically
02:08:16  <Flygon> Mega Drive gives the Sega CD picture
02:08:20  <Flygon> Sega CD manipulates picture
02:08:30  <Flygon> Feeds it back to Mega Drive, effectively uses Mega Drive as framebuffer
02:09:35  <Flygon> Framebuffers scare me. They work well... until you either don't have enough spare room, or a bottleneck occours
02:09:46  <Flygon> Then again, with modern computers, this really isn't a problem :D
02:09:53  <Flygon> We've come a looong way
02:10:29  <Flygon> Sure, I miss seeing the days where people would come up with clever workarounds for a simple problem... but
02:10:37  <Flygon> It's probably best for the sanity of everyone xP
02:14:32  <Flygon> Ahh... sorry for rambling x.x
02:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause> well, all this abusing of hardware bugs and stuff made it really tricky to port games between platforms
02:16:10  <Flygon> Well, that, and
02:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> even relying on timings was troubling
02:16:21  <Flygon> Y'know, each platform having a different CPU arch. xP
02:16:35  <Eddi|zuHause> 80's PC games ran really really fast on 90's computers
02:16:49  <Flygon> Ooh, yeah. Isn't that why lots of 90s PCs had the Turbo button?
02:17:44  <Eddi|zuHause> only in the very early 90's
02:18:10  <Flygon> (the hardware bugs problem actually kinda bit the Mega Drive on the ass... when you have a console that's gone through that many hardware revisions, you will break at least a few games/utilities @_@)
02:18:20  <Flygon> Hmm...
02:18:30  <Flygon> Coulda sworn I saw Turbo buttons being regular into 1998-1999
02:18:39  <Flygon> But, I was like, a youngass kiddo at the time xP
02:19:09  <Flygon> Our Primary School's computers ran like crap
02:19:15  <Flygon> We used Windows ME PC's into 2004
02:19:22  <Flygon> And the Turbo buttons were always turned on
02:19:33  <Flygon> And the entire school shared a rather slow ISDN connection until 2003
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02:19:37  <Flygon> It was so SLOOOOOW
02:21:26  <Flygon> Didn't help ME kept crashing
02:22:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really have any problems with ME, until it was so infested with malware i had to scrap it
02:22:38  <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> 80's PC games ran really really fast on 90's computers <-- and often unplayable
02:22:58  <Flygon> Eddi: When you put Windows ME in the hands of an 9 year old
02:23:05  <Flygon> Expect bad things to happen
02:23:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: i don't see why that would affect ME more than any other...
02:23:35  <glx> same with any windows
02:23:59  <glx> even with older users
02:24:05  <Flygon> Eddi: It's a Primary School
02:24:22  <Flygon> You'll get all sorts of stupid insane crap happening
02:24:39  <Flygon> And everyone knows it's just preparing them for the insane insanity of absurdity that'll come in High School
02:24:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but that's not the point
02:25:03  <Flygon> True
02:25:15  * Flygon scratches head
02:25:21  <Flygon> And they did like breaking the 9x machines too...
02:25:34  <Flygon> Either way, when 2000 started being phased in, things started crashing far less
02:26:03  <glx> of course it was a NT system
02:26:19  <Flygon> Yup :D
02:26:26  <Flygon> I loved the 2000 computers. Never lost my work
02:26:29  <Flygon> And more importantly
02:26:30  <glx> but not very good at gaming
02:26:32  <Flygon> The games never crashed
02:26:34  <Eddi|zuHause> people had lots of fun with ping of death, for a day or two...
02:26:47  <Flygon> ...I love how glx and I said directly opposing statement simultainiously
02:27:16  <Flygon> Tho, the audio for the older DOS games was troublesome on both 2K and XP x.x
02:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but that wasn't elementary school :p
02:27:34  <Flygon> At least in High School, all the computers had XP
02:27:36  <Flygon> I mean
02:27:39  <Flygon> They ran like utter crap
02:27:43  <Flygon> But at least they worked xP
02:28:40  <Eddi|zuHause> at our school, all the PCs had 98, except one that ran NT, and one that ran linux
02:29:13  * Flygon nod
02:29:17  <Flygon> What year?
02:29:29  <Flygon> Wait, 98 or 98SE? O_o
02:29:30  <glx> at school we had thomson MO5
02:29:58  <Flygon> Thomson MO5... I don't think that brand even existed in Australia
02:30:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i left school in 2000
02:30:22  <Flygon> Eddi: 2010
02:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> the PCs were generally disused ones from big companies
02:30:54  <glx>
02:30:58  <Flygon> Hmm...
02:31:05  <Flygon> Most of the computers we got in Primary
02:31:28  <Flygon> Were either ones that were mass purchased around 1995-1996 (most ran 95 when I first got in, and was clearly their first OS)
02:31:39  <Flygon> Or ones handed down to the school through Government computer retirement programmes
02:31:49  <Flygon> Where instead of scrapping the PCs, they'd give them to Schools
02:32:17  <Flygon> Thus making the Inner City High School Computer joke in Futurama extremely relatable to me xP
02:32:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember that joke
02:32:43  <Flygon> glx: I can see why I may not've heard of the brand x3
02:32:46  <Flygon> Eddi: One sec
02:33:00  <Flygon> The episode where they go to the planet of the robots
02:33:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i do not have all episodes of futurama memorized
02:33:55  <glx> Flygon: and they were still in use in 1993
02:34:12  <Flygon> glx: To me, that would've been extremely cool as a kid
02:34:19  <Flygon> The other kids probably wouldn't have found it cool
02:34:21  <Flygon> But I would've xP
02:35:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the first year we had computer course in school they taught us DOS commands and microsoft works [on win 3.11]
02:35:33  <Flygon> Ah, crap
02:35:37  <Flygon> I can't find the quote x.x
02:35:37  <Flygon> Sorry
02:35:45  <Flygon> oooohh... 3.11
02:35:49  <Flygon> I used that like
02:35:52  <Flygon> In Kindergarten
02:35:57  <Flygon> In 2006...
02:36:08  <Flygon> ...there was a meeting going on, and I attended
02:36:24  <Flygon> And noticed their computers were old as hell and asked if they mind I took a stickybeek :B
02:37:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i think this was in 7th grade, which would make this 1994/1995-ish
02:37:22  * Flygon nod
02:37:53  <Flygon> First computer I ever used was in that same year...
02:37:56  <supermop> did you have computers in school in DDR Eddi|zuHause ? or would that have been before your time?
02:37:59  <Flygon> Which actually made using 3.11 really weird
02:38:07  <Flygon> Because, I assumed before Windows 95 existed
02:38:14  <Flygon> ALL desktop computers ran DOS
02:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: no, and yes.
02:38:25  <Flygon> And thought Windows didn't exist before 95
02:38:52  <Flygon> I mean... I booted the 3.11 PC and was like
02:38:58  <Flygon> "Where's da start menu?"
02:39:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: well, windows 1-3 ran on DOS, Windows 95 was basically Windows 4
02:39:15  <Flygon> Then figured out what the Program Manager thing on the desktop was for
02:39:23  <Flygon> I know, but
02:39:29  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i've never seen an east german microcomputer but i assumed there would have been some in some institutions at least
02:39:36  <Flygon> I meant, raw DOS. All text based interface ect x3
02:39:43  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: universities had some
02:40:02  <supermop> local or western? or russian?
02:40:33  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: there was a computer manufacturer in east germany called "robotron", but people also had imported western computers, and especially software...
02:40:51  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: russian computers also existed
02:41:05  <supermop> please tell me someone purchased that trademark from the state in 91
02:41:22  <supermop> best brand name ever
02:41:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what happened to the brand
02:41:54  <Eddi|zuHause> although, many brands were purchased by western companies, and then never used
02:41:57  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: ive seen old soviet russian calculators and microcomputers on ebay from time to time
02:42:10  <supermop> calculators with VFDs
02:43:18  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a shipment of a supercomputer to our university, and some parts of crates for it we used as base for our model railway. i spent a lot of time as a kid staring at the russian letters underneath trying to decipher what they say
02:43:43  <Eddi|zuHause> but the only word i ever could decipher was "Dresden"
02:43:44  <Flygon> My extent of reading Russian letters
02:43:58  <Flygon> Is knowing that Pectopat isn't pronounced Pektopat
02:44:05  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i assume that one was easier to pick out from context
02:44:13  <Flygon> It's pronounced Resturant
02:44:27  <Flygon> Or however you spell it
02:44:39  <Flygon> restaurant
02:44:56  <Eddi|zuHause> restaurant isn't pronounced restaurant either
02:44:59  <Flygon> Jesus Christ. I can spell the thing in Russian but not English. That's how crap English is. :D
02:45:20  <Flygon> Yeah, exactly. I keep trying to type it semi-phonetically and failing baaadly
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02:45:39  <Flygon> In my head, I say it like "Res-trau-nt"
02:46:12  <supermop> hah
02:46:30  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i think it might actually have been the other way around, somebody told me it said "Dresden" and then i matched the letters
02:47:08  <supermop> in the 70s my dad bought an HP calculator, either with LED or VFD display, when he was doing his masters or phd
02:47:09  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i could just have asked my mother to read it to me, she taught russian in school
02:47:15  <supermop> and it cost him more than his car
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02:48:21  <supermop> saved him having to punch cards and carry them to the computer building though
02:48:33  <Eddi|zuHause> calculators always seemed weird to me, as they didn't seem to follow moore's law
02:48:43  <Flygon> Well
02:48:45  <Flygon> To be fair
02:48:48  <Flygon> They sorta have
02:48:58  <Flygon> It's just that for the purposes of being thumb compatible
02:49:09  <Flygon> They have to remain a particular minimum size
02:49:22  <supermop> they certainly do not come down in cost
02:49:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: well, but if they don't go down in size, they should go down in price instead
02:49:45  <Flygon> I was going by an interperetation where Moores Law applied to a Calculator where
02:49:47  <Flygon> Over time
02:49:51  <Flygon> It has a sized power
02:49:53  <supermop> a graphing calculator today is about the same cost and same functionality, and same size, as one from the late 80s
02:50:03  <Flygon> So therefor the improvements come from either size or performance
02:50:10  <Flygon> ...I just said gibberish
02:50:13  <Flygon> Bear with me, flu
02:50:23  <Flygon> The issue with calculators coming down in price
02:50:30  <Eddi|zuHause> a bear AND the flu? poor you.
02:50:38  <Flygon> If we compleeeeetely ignore the monopolies making the prices artificially high
02:50:41  <supermop> maybe the bear has the flu
02:50:54  <Flygon> Is stuff like plastic casing. Stuff gotta be made out of Nintendium yo :B
02:50:59  <Flygon> I'm not a Bear
02:51:09  <Flygon> I'm not that sort of non-straigt person
02:51:10  <Flygon> :B
02:51:13  <supermop> calculators are like text books
02:51:15  <Flygon> ...non-straight
02:51:22  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean a plastic case worth 10 cents makes a calculator cost 120€?
02:51:22  <Flygon> Because h's are evil
02:51:33  <Flygon> Eddi: It's a very pretty case! xP
02:51:41  <Flygon> But, yeah. Calculators got the same problem as Text Books
02:51:42  <supermop> high school or professor suggests or requires a certain model for a certain course
02:51:59  <supermop> so TI has no reason to improve it or make it cheaper
02:52:02  <Flygon> Sure. It'd be cheaper to just use a 0 laptop which can open both the Textbook PDFs AND a suitable calculator software
02:52:10  <Flygon> But that'll never fuckin' happen xP
02:52:30  <supermop> and even if casio or HP make a competitor that is better, no one buys it unless a professor mandates that one instead
02:52:41  <Eddi|zuHause> every phone nowadays could just run a calculator app that beats out any calculator ever.
02:53:19  <supermop> but course mandates TI-86, even if it was meager in 1990
02:54:04  <supermop> so you have a guaranteed market going to buy a TI-86 no matter how expensive or crappy it is,
02:54:32  <Flygon> Eddi: AND have a big enough screen for the textbooks
02:55:02  <Flygon> Well, if there's any upshot of this. All these TI calculators can run Pokemon Red and Blue flawlessly xP
02:55:16  <supermop> Flygon: most proctors would not let you sit for an exam with a laptop on your desk
02:56:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: well, when i went to university, the running gag was that someone ported command&comquer to TI-86. with multiplayer capability
02:59:05  <Flygon> Sorry for the delay, was cooking
02:59:10  <Flygon> supermop: Welll...
02:59:14  <Flygon> That's a good point
02:59:16  <Flygon> Eddi: Hahaha :D
03:01:50  <supermop> Flygon: maybe they should, maybe not. Today you could make arguments that rote memorization and traditional examination are increasingly obsolete as educational tools, but that's a matter for different debate among educators
03:02:01  <Flygon> Well...
03:02:06  <Flygon> There's a time and place for memorization
03:02:30  <supermop> there is also a lot of a club mentality - "if i had to do this with only this equipment then kids today should have to do so too"
03:02:41  <Flygon> But setting students up for an environment where they must force themselves to remember an absolute truckload of information across a wide berth of subjects
03:03:03  <Flygon> Just to fill in answers on a sheet for a week long period of their lives
03:03:13  <Flygon> Is not very healthy for the students
03:03:21  <Flygon> And won't likely have them REMEMBERING the information later
03:03:58  <Eddi|zuHause> our math teacher once asked us whether we wanted to write the test with or without graphical calculator. followed with: "when you want to write with, the questions will be formulated in a way that you won't have a use for it."
03:04:20  <supermop> a standardized test that you make as hard to cheat at as possible is pretty much state of the art for the late 19th century when people first began to seriously try to make a science of education.
03:04:20  <Flygon> Harsh
03:04:29  <Flygon> Then again
03:04:33  <Flygon> I failed math x:
03:04:42  <Flygon> I still can't remember a thing about algebra or trigonometry...
03:04:53  <supermop> today you could probably better measure someones comprehension with other methods
03:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the test was about differentiation or integration or something along that line
03:05:43  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: actually not much need for calculators in the conceptual basics of calculus
03:05:59  <Eddi|zuHause> so the questions would have been things so complicated that the calculator wouldn't be able to do
03:06:25  <supermop> making someone sit a basic calc exam where they need a calculator is more painful busywork than actually determining if they learned the material
03:06:59  <Eddi|zuHause> everyone somewhat agreed that we'd write the test without calculator :p
03:07:58  <supermop> i only really got a lot of use out of my ti 86 in AP chemistry
03:08:32  <Eddi|zuHause> what does AP stand for?
03:08:42  <supermop> advanced placement
03:08:52  <supermop> its a sort of worthless system in the us
03:09:07  <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, graphical calculators are generally more useful in applied sciences, where you've got statistics to plot and stuff
03:09:45  <supermop> whereby you take a very basic level university course in high school, and then depending on the AP exam results may get some university credits for it
03:10:09  <supermop> so you can then save time at university or skip some classes
03:11:08  <supermop> my AP german scores placed me in german iii at university but would not give me 'credits' for skipping i and ii unless i also completed iv and v
03:11:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and after German V you can speak german like a 5-year-old?
03:12:21  <supermop> so where i just wanted to take an easy german course as an elective on the side and stay current in my proficiency, i was dropped into a hard class which made me decide to give it up after ii
03:12:23  <supermop> iii
03:12:51  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i could speak german better after my high school german than after my university german!
03:13:06  <supermop> and better still after my middle school german
03:13:31  <Eddi|zuHause> skipping introduction classes doesn't seem like a great idea generally
03:13:38  <supermop> i was never that serious about keeping up with it unfortunately so i'd put myself at the 3 year old level today
03:13:49  <Eddi|zuHause> they might cover pieces you didn't actually discuss in school
03:13:55  <supermop> indeed
03:14:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and even for the other stuff, repeating it is never wrong
03:15:02  <supermop> the other AP classes i took in high school were all for thinks i never needed to touch in university anyway except physics and calculus
03:15:42  <Eddi|zuHause> like i took advanced maths courses in a specialized maths school, but even though until the 4th semester i encountered lots of stuff we already covered in school, skipping the first two semesters would have been deadly
03:15:43  <supermop> so i gave up on german and tried japanese and swedish instead
03:16:31  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i also found some things were done differently between my UK middle school and US high school
03:16:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably normal
03:17:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that is even a problem just moving between schools
03:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause> or within germany, moving from one state to another
03:17:25  <supermop> so while generally i was 2 or so years 'ahead' in math when i came back to the us, there were a couple important things i would have missed if i actually tried to skip those years
03:18:12  <supermop> same in the US, generally public school curricula are set by states, not the federal government for better or for worse
03:18:20  <supermop> (mostly for worse)
03:18:41  <Eddi|zuHause> this is kind of a big discussion in germany as well
03:19:04  <Eddi|zuHause> especially about comparing the final results wrt university application
03:19:13  <supermop> yes
03:19:48  <Eddi|zuHause> a 1.0 [best grade] in Bremen is potentially much easier to reach than a 1.0 in Bavaria
03:20:09  <supermop> universities generally try to have their own methods for ranking different high schools across the country
03:20:17  <supermop> which can lead to all sorts of problems
03:20:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yet for courses like medicine, which have a Numerus Clausus, both these results are treated the same
03:21:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the individual universities don't actually have much to say in this
03:21:34  <supermop> universities here are a bit weird
03:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a centralized system for distributing students which want to take such courses
03:21:53  <supermop> and give objectively some of the best educations in the world,
03:21:58  <supermop> but in many many cases not
03:22:41  <Eddi|zuHause> so basically the university says "we have 100 seats", and the system assigns them 100 students which either have good enoug grades or accumulated waiting semesters
03:22:50  <supermop> the public schools each have variying amounts of independence from their state, and varying motivations and goals
03:23:16  <supermop> and the private universities are sort of unchecked
03:23:49  <supermop> which causes many public universities to go to great lengths to try to match them
03:24:21  <supermop> and other private universities are not at all competitive
03:24:49  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: are german universities federal or state governed?
03:25:38  <Eddi|zuHause> in the german federal system, education is strictly a state business, and there is even a ban on "cooperation" between the states [which is currently under controversial debate]
03:26:08  <supermop> are they funded by state taxes?
03:26:23  <Eddi|zuHause> so universities are usually state funded, but also have some autonomy
03:26:26  <supermop> so that rich states would have better funded programs?
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03:27:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that could be the case, but i don't think it has a lot of effect in practice
03:28:08  <supermop> here tuition is relatively cheap if you are a state resident at a state university, but full price if not
03:28:32  <Eddi|zuHause> tuition isn't really a thing in germany
03:28:41  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you go to a private university
03:29:09  <supermop> so state schools are mandated to primarily serve their residents but try to attract as many foreign students as the reasonably can to subsidize the cost
03:29:36  <supermop> to a lesser extent with us residents from other states too
03:30:04  <Eddi|zuHause> a few years ago there was a court case, which, on an almost unrelated topic, said there isn't actually a ban on tuition fees. then some states enacted fees of about 500€ per semester, but all those states rolled back the tuition fees again
03:30:11  <supermop> even before the last 15-20 years when tuition got so expensive here, this was common practice
03:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> now, the 500€ usually applies to students that exceed the regular studying time by more than 4 semesters
03:30:59  <supermop> i would have loved to pay 4000 eur to go to school
03:31:14  <supermop> instead of the 160,000 usd
03:31:40  <Flygon> 160k??
03:31:41  <Flygon> Holy.
03:31:42  <Flygon> FUCK.
03:32:14  <supermop> going back for my masters would be about another 100,000, all in loans as no college savings left obviously
03:32:19  <Eddi|zuHause> most universities charge you some 50-150€ per semester, which covers some basic administrative tasks and often public transport within the city
03:32:34  <Eddi|zuHause> then you have to figure out a place to live and pay for that and your food
03:32:41  <supermop> some americans pay off their student loans when they are in their 40s or 50s
03:33:01  <supermop> and they didnt even pay as much as people of my generation
03:33:16  <supermop> back then tuition was maybe a few thousand at most a year
03:33:26  <supermop> in some cases a few hundred
03:33:52  <supermop> and more many people free if they got the right scholarships
03:35:01  <supermop> Flygon: and in the us it is almost impossible to get much of any kind of job without university degree
03:36:05  <supermop> even if you want to be a machinist or welder, you pay quite a bit for the post-secondary technical degree or certificate program
03:36:50  <Flygon> supermop: What about Trade School?
03:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> there is also a student funding program which gives you money based on the income on your parents, half of which you never have to give back, and the other half you have to pay back once you get a decently paid job
03:37:49  <Eddi|zuHause> (so if you have rich parents you don't get anything, if you have poor parents you get like 400€ per month)
03:39:22  <supermop> Flygon: trade school costs money, sometimes more than just going to a basic state university
03:39:39  <Flygon> True
03:40:38  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: schools do that here on their own, but its up to them how much, and a poor student still often ended up with a gap to pay which may be quite hard to cover
03:42:25  <supermop> even if the gap is just a few thousand dollars, they will need to take loans and work to cover all their costs, and the work may prevent them from taking classes full time, which means they take more years to graduate, so they need to get more money to pay for more school
03:44:02  <supermop> Flygon: many trade and vocational programs are borderline predatory
03:44:24  <supermop> almost none are publicly run outside of the military
03:44:36  <Flygon> Ooh...
03:44:44  <Flygon> Yeeaaah I wouldn't join the military
03:44:55  <supermop> you probaby can get a grant to do something weird like be a shipwright for free
03:45:30  <supermop> but if you want to do a basic in demand manufacturing job that requires special training, you are paying for it
03:45:36  <supermop> ok bed time here
03:45:43  <Flygon> Night brah!
03:45:46  <supermop> later
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09:30:13  <jjavaholic> when it comes to creating ship systems it is best to place depots as close to the actual route/path ship will travel to reduce inefficiencies?
09:31:24  <planetmaker> yes. That's true for all vehicle types
09:31:33  <planetmaker> Though best it's to give explicit service orders
09:32:03  <planetmaker> Then you know when they service, where they service and you make sure they don't try to find a depot at the most inconvenient time
09:32:28  <jjavaholic> refitting orders would also count as service orders?
09:34:18  <planetmaker> I'm not 100% sure
09:34:51  <jjavaholic> same effect?
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10:41:22  <planetmaker> @ports
10:41:22  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
10:46:23  <_dp_> why not tcp for masterserver btw?
10:46:47  <planetmaker> too much overhead
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10:49:43  <Ether_Man> Anyone that could explain the purpose of the combosignals in the steel pickup area exits?
10:49:50  <Ether_Man>
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11:07:21  <planetmaker> Ether_Man, they relay the occupation of the following block to that very signal
11:08:16  <planetmaker> basically it means that the *exit* signals turn red when a train is leaving into that exit with the combo signal
11:08:43  <Ether_Man> Which is exactly the same as the block signal right next to it isnt it?
11:09:48  <planetmaker> looks like it, yes
11:10:02  <planetmaker> maybe V453000 can explain what he thought back then :)
11:10:24  <V453000> fuken work internet, gaming sites prohibited
11:10:27  <V453000> cant access the image :(
11:10:48  <V453000> sec
11:10:52  <planetmaker> wait
11:10:52  <Ether_Man> heh
11:12:06  <V453000> ha, seeing it on phone
11:12:17  <V453000> poorly XD
11:12:22  <V453000> so what was the question
11:12:29  <V453000> ah right
11:12:35  <V453000> that is an overflow detection
11:12:38  <Ether_Man> V453000, the purpose of the combo signal at the exits :)
11:12:47  <V453000> you can read about that in the Overflows III article
11:12:50  <V453000> found on the blog
11:13:03  <V453000> but they basically just detect all of the platforms
11:13:22  <planetmaker> but is that information used anywhere?
11:13:30  <V453000> sure at the entry signal in front of the station
11:13:36  <V453000> trains coming from overflow
11:13:44  <V453000> with the dutch catenary the signals look damn similar to PBS
11:13:59  <planetmaker> oh! That's the missing clue indeed
11:14:01  <V453000> yeah
11:14:05  <planetmaker> I deemed them path signals
11:14:29  <V453000> the entry signal lets the train into the block, where PBS takes over
11:14:29  <V453000> magix
11:15:25  <planetmaker> really playing the path finders :D
11:15:32  <V453000> :)
11:15:54  <V453000> I say it all the time that a combined entry + PBS signal would be nice ;)
11:16:09  <Ether_Man> Sure seems like V is playing a completely different game from me at least ^_^;
11:16:28  <V453000> duh
11:18:02  <Ether_Man> would prefer a more realistic path reservation system myself. At least your problem there can be worked around seemingly relatively simple. Realistic pathing, cannot be done right now it seems
11:18:08  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: what would the semantics of that be?
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11:18:30  <V453000> signal which lets trains pass if green from presignals AND a path would be clear?
11:18:34  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you probably want a programmable signal
11:18:41  <V453000> no programmable signals are bullshit
11:18:51  <V453000> one signal, one purpose, visually clear
11:18:59  <Ether_Man> At least not without manually programmed signals mod, and then using quite advanced logics to do so :)
11:19:07  <V453000> exactly this screenshot shows when signals look the "same" and have different usage
11:19:15  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: but your need is too specific for a generic signal
11:19:24  <V453000> too bad :)
11:19:43  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: there are 8 visually different signal types
11:19:46  <Ether_Man> Eddi|zuHause, it's actually not. Real signals use dwarf signals for among other things, that very purpose
11:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Ether_Man: dwarf signals have the exact same meaning of regular signals
11:20:20  <V453000> yes Eddi but the grf used in that screenshot makes PBS and entry look very similar
11:20:22  <Eddi|zuHause> they are just smaller
11:20:27  <Ether_Man> Which are incorporated in all signals within any range of a station or switch
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11:20:37  <Ether_Man> Eddi|zuHause, no they don't.
11:22:01  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: yes, those are the original (TTDP) signals, which is why openttd later changed the path signals to be more visually distinct. but how is that a point against progammable signals?
11:22:36  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: the game currently uses 6 of the 8 signal types, so you still have 2 signal types free to customize their behaviour
11:23:16  <V453000> ..
11:24:39  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: alternatively, you could invent a system to visually distinguish more signal types, without needing hundreds of sprites
11:25:02  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I think afd88 made a good point recently in one of the threads: signals are signals and routing can well use a visually distinctive thing (like waypoints)
11:25:10  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. using recolouring of mast signs
11:25:13  <planetmaker> it also eases the UI a lot
11:25:46  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but this isn't about routing restrictions, this is about progammable signals
11:25:49  <V453000> I dont think I will be able to do anything for openttd anytime soon at all :)
11:26:09  <V453000> programmable signals mean that you need to open some gui to see what they do I assume
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11:26:14  <V453000> which is just insane to manage and orientate in
11:26:42  <planetmaker> so you're now totally lost to factorio?
11:26:48  <V453000> pretty much
11:26:53  <planetmaker> :(
11:27:12  <V453000> atm I have both jobs, so openttd is utterly out of the question, idk if after I have only 1 job I will find some love for it
11:27:20  <V453000> but honestly, zero interest at the moment
11:27:27  <V453000> I would like to finish BRIX one day though
11:28:04  <V453000> also, nothing is sure yet :P
11:28:11  <Eddi|zuHause> well, IMO there are two ways programmable signals could work, one would be to program an individual signal on the map, and the other would be to make a generic signal (like a template) that you can place
11:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause> an entry signal template would then read "force red if all exit signals are red"
11:29:54  <Eddi|zuHause> and an individually programmed signal would read "force red if signal at (X,Y) is red"
11:30:05  <Ether_Man> Eddi|zuHause, why not like real life with connecting all signals on a track to a main controller that you can then program? Basically make it two parts. One that you can program, but can reference all signals and trains on all tracks connected to it?
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11:30:24  <Wolf01> moin
11:30:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Ether_Man: that may be a possibility
11:30:41  <Ether_Man> Because signals in real life are not just based on what other signals are reading, but also what the trains are doing
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11:31:07  <V453000> yay discussion de-railed to real life
11:31:08  <V453000> gg
11:31:25  * V453000 back to factories :P
11:31:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Ether_Man: that basically means all signals share a program
11:31:44  <Ether_Man> Eddi|zuHause, in essence, yes
11:31:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Ether_Man: but that immediately causes trouble when you want to join or split such a block
11:32:13  <Ether_Man> But not just signals, also the trains
11:32:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Ether_Man: that won't happen. trains can only react to signals, they have no other way of communcication except marking their presence
11:33:17  <V453000> trains cant communicate =(
11:33:23  <Ether_Man> In TTD yes I know. That's what I would have liked to be improved
11:34:12  <Ether_Man> Like, today, we have trains choosing a path based on signals. I would prefer the opposite, where signals choose a path, and trains just follow the signals :)
11:35:18  <Ether_Man> But well, that's just me. I prefer games as realistic as possible :)
11:35:31  * V453000 runs like hell
11:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Ether_Man: again, that is more like routing restrictions, which should be a separate feature
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18:40:14  <argoneus> lel
18:40:17  <argoneus> github, everyone
18:44:22  <peter1138> :S
18:44:54  <peter1138> hopefully they all need a passphrase... yeah right
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19:01:09  <peter1138> bah at amazon lightning deals that get "100% claimed" within seconds.
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19:43:47  <peter1138> why can i not find a paperclip? :S
19:45:48  <__ln__> install word 97
19:59:57  <Hiddenfunstuff> did you remember to plug VGA, PS/2, sound?
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20:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> must have disappeared in a transdimensional fault
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20:20:11  <peter1138> i found some paperclips
20:20:16  <peter1138> in a tool chest, wtf?
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21:39:21  *** Netsplit <-> quits: Zr40, Myhorta, +glx, JGR, TrueBrain, TheMask96, kais58, Defaultti, SpComb, Stimrol,  (+1 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
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22:34:45  <Wolf01> 'night
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