Log for #openttd on 14th September 2015:
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07:15:27  <andythenorth> Pikka hello bob
07:16:55  <V453000> yooooo (:
07:18:40  <andythenorth> such FEATURES
07:20:47  <V453000> WHERE IZ THEM
07:22:45  <andythenorth> EVERYWHERE
07:22:52  <andythenorth> mostly FIRS and Road Hog
07:22:55  <andythenorth> also NARS 2
07:23:31  <V453000> what new in firs 2?
07:23:56  <andythenorth> less shit
07:24:01  <andythenorth> still not good
07:24:05  <andythenorth> but not as shit as before
07:24:15  <V453000> :D
07:24:21  <V453000> specifically?
07:24:36  <andythenorth> what, I am your automated changelog here? o_O
07:24:49  <andythenorth> fixed primary industries
07:24:52  <V453000> yes! :D
07:25:02  <andythenorth> clustering + production amounts fixed
07:25:15  <andythenorth> moar better sprites for some industries
07:25:19  <andythenorth> Power Plant!
07:25:26  <V453000> nice
07:25:29  <V453000> should have a look then
07:25:33  <andythenorth> play the game
07:25:34  <andythenorth> it’s fun
07:25:43  <V453000> no thanks :P
07:25:46  <andythenorth> even better if you use other people’s grfs
07:26:45  <andythenorth> I think apart from Redditers, there’s only me left playing tbh
07:26:54  <andythenorth> everyone else who hadn’t already quit now has
07:28:36  <V453000> coop is quite active lately I think :)
07:30:22  <V453000> wtf firs2 isnt loaded on coop yet :) they were talking about loading it yesterda
07:30:23  <V453000> y
07:31:21  <V453000> ah I guess new FIRS doesnt work with stable :)
07:31:43  <andythenorth> eh dunno, it needs some rev, I forget which
07:32:48  <V453000> the quarry si super nice now :) with the pipes and belts and shit
07:33:10  <V453000> the only thing I am a bit wtf about is the belt at the back, it looks like it comes from the top of the heap
07:33:21  <andythenorth> agreed
07:33:30  <andythenorth> I should redraw the heap a bit
07:33:40  <andythenorth> the belt is from behind it
07:33:48  <andythenorth> looks weird
07:33:53  <V453000> yeah I understand the intention
07:34:05  <V453000> perhaps jsut move the conveyor belt
07:34:08  <andythenorth> maybe
07:34:09  <V453000> heap is fine
07:34:18  <V453000> shortening the horizontal part of the belt would be good I guess
07:35:16  <V453000> power plant has no new grafx :(
07:35:22  <andythenorth> nah
07:35:26  <andythenorth> but maybe in future
07:35:31  <V453000> wtf is it for anyway XD
07:35:58  <andythenorth> train set purposes
07:36:04  <V453000> especially if you can get ES from coal
07:36:12  <V453000> how are train sets relative to power plant?
07:36:24  <andythenorth> train set, as in ‘toy trains'
07:36:35  <andythenorth> it’s mostly an eye candy, no-gameplay-purpose thing
07:36:42  <V453000> ._.
07:37:07  <andythenorth> it only makes sense with some GS like Busy Bee
07:37:29  <V453000> == it doesnt make sense? :P
07:37:47  <andythenorth> ha
07:38:04  <andythenorth> I thought about making it do something
07:38:07  <andythenorth> but then I cba
07:38:52  <andythenorth> ‘Feature: 3 more pointless industries'
07:38:57  <V453000> if you are spending cargo on something that cant produce ES opposed to on something that can, it is very wtf
07:39:01  <V453000> XD
07:39:07  <andythenorth> yes
07:39:16  <andythenorth> but ES is less important now
07:39:26  <andythenorth> FIRS got a bit more sandbox-ish
07:39:29  <V453000> how come?
07:39:39  <andythenorth> base production is higher at most primaries
07:39:48  <V453000> hm
07:39:54  <andythenorth> or has higher range for the randomiser at game start anyway
07:39:59  <andythenorth> also ES from Ports etc
07:40:08  <V453000> right
07:40:15  <andythenorth> although
in my current game I badly need ES
07:40:19  <V453000> yeti ftw. :P
07:40:21  <andythenorth> and some Zeppelins to move them around
07:40:32  <andythenorth> moar Zellepins
07:40:45  <andythenorth> AV9 is missing Zellepins
07:41:00  <V453000> wat
07:41:09  <V453000> Pikka clearly removed too much :D
07:42:13  * andythenorth must to work and such
07:50:33  <Supercheese> Removing zeppelins? Heresy! :P
08:02:16  <andythenorth> tbh, they’re too slow and silly
08:02:18  <andythenorth> so eh
08:04:04  <V453000> I like them
08:06:03  <Supercheese> They're excellent for delivering supplies in early games
08:06:35  <Supercheese> as only the 1x1 helipad is required and at a plane speed factor of 1/1 they are not slow at all
08:07:03  <Supercheese> 80mph as the crow flies beats other methods of transport until the mid-1930s or so
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09:25:53  <Wolf01> o/
09:44:57  <__ln__> ö/
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09:50:03  <Xaroth|Work> __ln__: you have something weird floating over your head
09:50:19  <__ln__> must be the antennas
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10:38:06  <Pikka> silly zellepins
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10:59:47  <andythenorth> silly Pikka :)
11:00:15  <andythenorth> so I could just de-compile NARS 2.5.1 and change costs myself...
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12:55:44  <wito> Why is founding towns so expensive?
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12:56:35  <Flygon> Stamp Duty
12:56:38  <alluke> because buildings roads and infrastructure cost like shit
12:57:07  <alluke> unless you build a slum
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12:58:03  <wito> True.
12:58:28  <wito> But even so, funding a new town costs on the order of a hundred times as much as funding new buildings in an existing town.
12:58:50  <wito> And those seem like -pretty- similar activities.
12:59:02  <wito> So my thought is that there's some game balance reason that I'm not grasping.
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13:01:20  <alluke> funding is too cheao
13:01:22  <alluke> cheap
13:02:21  <wito> Fair enough. But by a factor of 100?
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13:49:45  <alluke> andythenorth: when will chips become snow-aware?
13:49:52  <alluke> the sprites already exist
13:54:03  <andythenorth> no
13:54:09  <andythenorth> there is no coder
13:54:19  <andythenorth> so it won’t happen, unless a coder is found
13:54:26  <alluke> who coded the previous versions
13:54:32  <andythenorth> yexo
13:54:35  <alluke> ok
13:54:41  <alluke> and he has disappeared?
13:54:45  <andythenorth> real life
13:54:49  <alluke> died?
13:54:57  <alluke> wait nvm
13:56:44  <alluke> its going to be big step forward when nml works with stations
13:57:01  <alluke> my station sprites may finally get released
13:57:20  <peter1138> s/when/if/
13:57:28  <andythenorth> my words
13:57:28  <andythenorth> exactly
13:57:38  <andythenorth> can’t see that happening any time soon
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15:04:50  <andythenorth> is cat
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15:31:53  <Alberth> o/
15:34:13  <andythenorth> o/
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15:45:31  <Alberth> so, realistic recyclables eh?   we have the technology, just nobody uses it for 20 years :p
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15:50:48  <andythenorth> :P
16:02:27  <alluke> i wonder if zephyris has snowy coast sprites laying on his hdd
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16:07:28  <Alberth> it doesn't make sense to me unless you also have frozen water
16:08:51  <Alberth> but, they should be easy to make, right?
16:09:18  <Alberth> just use the open gfx ones, with some small adjustments to stay away from the water
16:12:38  <alluke> sea doesnt freeze
16:13:51  <Alberth> oh, that's why we have those ice breaker ships
16:13:55  <alluke> or does near coasts but it'll stay liquid for gameplay's sake
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18:15:25  <Wolf01> electric steam locomotives... mmmh...
18:17:25  <andythenorth> hrm
18:17:41  <Wolf01> i'm in that part of the interwebz again
18:17:57  <Wolf01>
18:21:24  <alluke> why is clay needed for making paper
18:42:24  <Sylf> clay is a common additive for paper manufacturing
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19:18:19  <dlhero> quick question: is there a way to get a monthly count of in/out per cargo type on a transfer station?
19:18:25  <edeca> I can't see FIRS in the bananas newgrf list in 1.5.2, am I doing something wrong?
19:18:46  <andythenorth> no
19:18:48  <andythenorth> expected
19:19:07  <edeca> Ah, a compatibility issue?  Stray flux from the capacitor?
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19:19:46  <andythenorth> brb
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19:21:15  <Sylf> looks like firs2 was released as an update for firs1 series
19:21:32  <edeca> Sylf: That's alpha, so wouldn't be expected in bananas from my understanding
19:21:41  <Sylf> and firs2 isnt compatible with openttd 1.5
19:21:49  <edeca> Aah, hm
19:22:07  <edeca> Does anybody use ECS any more?  I notice it has been a while since a release
19:22:21  <Sylf> and bananas probably is showing the latest version
19:22:39  <Sylf> yes, ecs is widely used
19:22:49  <edeca> I love it, when I last played (~12 months ago) it was what I used
19:23:07  <edeca> But I'm having issues with stations not accepting cargo, months after the input queue is empty
19:23:10  <edeca> So I was looking at alternatives
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19:25:56  <Sylf> you can download firs manually
19:26:13  <edeca> I'd rather fix ECS I guess, if it is widely used :)
19:26:15  <Sylf> from
19:26:18  <planetmaker> edeca, yes... that's an issue with bananas... it only shows the latest, even when there is one which you could use with your version
19:26:18  <edeca> My brain aches though
19:26:22  <planetmaker>
19:28:04  <andythenorth> hmm
19:28:29  <andythenorth> have I broken FIRS downloading for =< 1.5.2 players? :(
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19:30:35  <andythenorth> yeah
19:30:36  <andythenorth> gah
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19:36:57  <Supercheese> well, searching for content when joining MP servers should still be fine, since it'll look for the older version
19:37:07  <andythenorth> hmm
19:37:14  * andythenorth is quite confused
19:37:20  <Supercheese> but just searching for FIRS without any savegame associated may be busted
19:37:26  <andythenorth> FIRS doesn’t appear for me in 1.5.0
19:37:44  <andythenorth> this is
bad :(
19:39:34  * edeca throws cheese at andythenorth
19:40:49  <andythenorth> is there anything I can do to fix this?
19:41:51  <Sylf> can you release firs 1.4.5, with some translation updates maybe?
19:50:15  <alluke> planetmaker, have you ever drawn any snowy coasts sprites?
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19:54:49  <andythenorth> bah
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19:55:20  <planetmaker> yes and no. They do exist but are not really used
19:58:47  <planetmaker> alluke, the problem is that the snow content of coasts cannot vary. They always stay the colour (=snowyness) which you give them initially. Thus any varying snowline height will look funky
19:59:09  <alluke> i know and its not a problem
19:59:33  <alluke> id set the snowline to 0 in janyary and june anyway
20:00:21  <dlhero> another question... in FIRS some industries say: "cargo waiting to be processed"
20:00:42  <dlhero> is there really such a mechanic where an industry can process specific number of input cargo?
20:02:41  <alluke> the snow coasts could be separate grf or on/off switch in ogfx ls
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20:04:53  <planetmaker> the ideal solution for snow coasts would be to use appropriately snowy coasts in opengfx+landscape when the min *and* the max snowline height are equal
20:05:25  <alluke> true
20:05:28  <planetmaker> you can get snowy coasts by placing river tiles for coastal water
20:06:07  <alluke> diagonal costs will look like shit
20:06:11  <alluke> coasts*
20:06:31  <planetmaker> oh, not really
20:06:48  <alluke> plus its hell of a job in big map
20:07:20  <planetmaker> that, yes
20:07:50  <alluke> the diagonal costs will end up looking like sawteeth
20:09:59  <planetmaker> <-- not really
20:10:24  <planetmaker> opengfx+landscape has quite advanced river sprites to make diagonal rivers look better :)
20:11:07  <planetmaker> using any other river newgrf will make it look like shit, though, yes
20:12:22  <alluke> hmm
20:12:42  <alluke> 1 level is never full snowy
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20:12:54  <planetmaker> nope
20:13:01  <planetmaker> 50% snowyness at snowline height
20:13:17  <alluke> i guess the hidden winter wonderland easter egg needs to change those sprites too
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20:15:36  <planetmaker> probably
20:15:52  <alluke> ended up looking like this
20:16:25  <alluke> not as bad as i thought
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22:15:55  <wito> How do you make timetables less of a pain in the neck to manage throughout the train speed upgrade cycle?
22:15:59  <wito> Can you?
22:16:59  <Eddi|zuHause> well, either you delete it and start from scratch, or you adjust all times by x% depending on how much faster the trains are
22:17:15  <Eddi|zuHause> which needs to be done one-by-one
22:19:00  <wito> I notice there's an automatic "weak" autofill now.
22:19:23  <wito> Which shows how long the train actually took, but only when no time is set.
22:19:51  <wito> Which is neat.
22:21:17  <wito> Could that maybe be shown even if a time _is_ set? Like "Travel for 45 days (+3)" or "Travel for 45 days (took 48)", to make updating timetables easier?
22:22:10  <wito> (Well, that's an example of a traffic jam, not a faster train, but you get the idea.)
22:26:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i agree, that would be useful
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22:27:07  <Eddi|zuHause> there are a few timetable patches on the forum
22:28:35  <Wolf01> 'night all
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22:32:10  <wito> Also, another thing.
22:32:23  <wito> Generational train car autoupgrade.
22:33:31  <wito> Some train sets, like the Japan Set, has several generations of PAX wagons and mail wagons, with different speed limits and capacities, but because they're all just 'passenger car', they can't be autoreplaces.
22:33:38  <wito> autoreplaced*
22:33:43  <wito> From one generation to the next.
22:34:25  <wito> Although I suppose it could be argued that the GRF is broken for doing it that way.
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22:42:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is a known problematic clash of systems
22:43:13  <Eddi|zuHause> especially older sets tried to have as few vehicles as possible, because number of IDs was very limited
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22:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> now, you can just have a bunch of different passenger cars, instead of upgrading the same model with different stats
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22:51:12  <drac_boy> sorry if this is maybe a bit OT but how popular (and long-lasting) were these kind of electric locomotives that had the big traction motor mounted within the body? (rather than the then-typical later axle-slung ones)
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23:08:16  <Eddi|zuHause> not at all
23:08:37  <Eddi|zuHause> only the first few test engines had those, and they were usually discontinued very quickly
23:11:10  <Eddi|zuHause> bavaria adopted the axle-motors with its first high speed series ES 1 (later called E16). prussia hold on to the system with bigger motors and rod transmission a bit longer, but the E06, which was purchased at the same time as the E16 didn't make it past WWII, whereas the E16 was used until like the '80s
23:13:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem that the prussian electric networks were in silesia (belonged to poland after WWII), and in east germany (had to remove electric equipment for war reparations) didn't help either
23:13:05  <drac_boy> thanks for letting me know it probably wasn't me lacking language translations .. I had suspected the actual numbers might be a bit low but wasn't too certain
23:13:23  * drac_boy goes to look some bavaria images still
23:15:12  <drac_boy> btw about bavaria I really like the S3/6 and Gt 2x4/4 when it comes to their steam locomotives
23:15:15  <Eddi|zuHause> for slower services, the large motor+rods system was used a bit more, like the E77 and E91
23:15:21  <drac_boy> but these were quite big examples for in their class :)
23:15:50  <Eddi|zuHause> E91 is a freight locomotive, and E77 a hybrid passenger/freight locomotive
23:16:05  <Eddi|zuHause> there was also the E52
23:16:34  <Eddi|zuHause> all those purchased around the same time, right after WWI
23:16:47  <Eddi|zuHause> during the hyperinflation
23:17:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the technique was already pretty outdated by then, as the engines were actually ordered before WWI, but delivery was delayed
23:17:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the next generation (E17, E04, E44) already had the axle motors
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23:19:41  <drac_boy> holy.....mack!  0_0
23:19:52  <drac_boy>  that is HUGE motor
23:20:12  <drac_boy> and are these exposed transformer assembly toward the left end of the body
23:20:47  <drac_boy> crazy, I never did ever think they would build a locomotive like that till you had me looking up prussian (which I never thought of)
23:20:50  <Eddi|zuHause> that's one of the test engines i meant
23:21:13  <drac_boy> at least this looks like the sort of locomotives I was curious about
23:21:32  <drac_boy> interesting that the traction siderod goes inside the body instead of staying on the outside
23:22:01  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the diagonal rod is connected to the motor
23:22:06  <Eddi|zuHause> which is inside the body
23:22:57  <Eddi|zuHause> ES9-19 is basically the first "series"
23:26:44  <drac_boy> theres always also the few heavy train locomotives with the motor mounted almost horizontal with the standard siderods (but more than often still using its own rod attachment for good reason) .. the swiss crocodile is probably one easy example of that
23:30:47  <drac_boy> either way like I mentioned earlier on, thanks still :)
23:33:28  <drac_boy> one partial reason I asked was because .. well I'm just mulling with a bit of paper mockup for an actual model locomotive and I thought it could be a bit fun to loosely model something with a 'realistic' drive .. you know .. not the usual toy-like worm driven motor inside body
23:33:41  <drac_boy> I didn't start the idea but I'm interested in seeing what I can do tho :)
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