Log for #openttd on 21st September 2015:
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09:17:25  <Wolf01> o/
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09:48:04  <Demosthenex> so, is there any good means within the 1.5.2 release (no user added mods) to maintain vehicle separation in a shared route?
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10:00:53  <peter1138> no
10:01:19  <peter1138> there's autoseparation hidden away with a ctrl-click somewhere in timetabling, but keeping that separation going is a challenge
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10:19:37  <Demosthenex> i know there is timetables, but they feel so... rough
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10:44:34  <Flygon> ^
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10:55:05  <peter1138> sure, but that's the only way
10:57:36  <Demosthenex> so the wiki tutorial on timetables is opaque... any other suggestions?
10:59:21  <LadyHawk> [20/9][16:05:43] <Flygon> And LadyHawk is either definitely a Hawk or inspired by a movie that I've been meaning to see
10:59:23  <LadyHawk> [20/9][16:07:10] <Flygon> Ever seen a LadyHawk?
10:59:23  <LadyHawk> [20/9][16:07:22] <Flygon> They're pretty
10:59:23  <LadyHawk> [20/9][16:07:23] <Flygon> But
10:59:23  <LadyHawk> [20/9][16:07:28] <Flygon> They'll tear your throat out
10:59:23  <LadyHawk> [20/9][16:07:36] <Flygon> Because shit, she's a Hawk, not a human
10:59:28  <LadyHawk> lmfao
10:59:49  <Flygon> :D
11:00:18  <LadyHawk> ladyhawke movie from 1985 i think
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11:08:07  <Flygon_> Yeah
11:08:08  <Flygon_> It is
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13:06:10  <Demosthenex> ok, so i think i have a temp solution
13:06:28  <Demosthenex> i have a city with 5 stations, and 5 busses. i just want them in sync, i don't care about the passenger traffic, as it's a growth plan
13:06:43  <Demosthenex> so i did autofill to find the route, they are mostly the same, 11 to 17 days between stations
13:07:16  <Demosthenex> so i set an even timetable for all busses, 3 days @ each station, 20 days allowed for travel, reset the late counters and skipped each bus to the right station
13:07:20  <Demosthenex> now they run in a ring.
13:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> use ctrl+click on "start date" to distribute them evenly
13:34:36  <Eddi|zuHause> (provided that you used shared orders, not copied orders)
13:34:59  <Demosthenex> Eddi|zuHause: that does that with the dates, or via the stops?
13:35:55  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have set up the timetable, it sets the start dates evenly apart, and the busses will wait at the first stop until their start date comes along
13:40:45  <_dp_> Demosthenex, why bother that much with timetable for growth booster? just put 5 stations close enough and start one bus
13:41:06  <Sylf> ^
13:46:20  <Demosthenex> _dp_: i made kind of a ring i wanted the town to grow into, and then i have bus stations around the ring, and one at my terminal
13:54:48  <Demosthenex> Eddi|zuHause: that appears not to work if they already were mid-route, i have to reset them all to stop one?
13:58:35  <Demosthenex> hrm. nope. i tried the date with them all on #1, and they all ran there when i hit go
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14:24:37  <Demosthenex> is the control-click spread start date one of those things where they will eventually spread out?
14:24:49  <Demosthenex> as opposed to initially spread out?
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14:51:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Demosthenex: the spreading will start once each vehicle visited the first station
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14:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Demosthenex: occasionally it doesn't quite work out the right order the first time, and then you will end up with some vehicles thinking they're 98% of the timetable late, instead of 2% early
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14:52:59  <Eddi|zuHause> they will then spend an eternity trying to catch up their delay, possibly stuck behind another vehicle that thinks it's on time
14:53:27  <Alberth> hi hi
14:54:58  <Rubidium> the timetable spreading works best with multiplatform stations that have a bit of spare room for overtaking to solve that problem with initial ordering
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14:56:53  <NGC3982> Wat.
14:57:08  <NGC3982> Did.. something happend?
14:59:14  <peter1138> no
15:10:29  <__ln__> *happen
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15:17:07  <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
15:17:07  <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 19 hours and 28 seconds ago: * andythenorth bed
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15:30:28  <NGC3982> Still, there are no logs to give me more verbose information regarding what "connection failed" means with the Soap plugin for supybot?
15:33:01  <Alberth> logs would be at your end, most likely, or at the isp end
15:33:37  <NGC3982> Yes, it's my own supybot on my own server. So somewhere, i should be able to figure out what i'm doing wrong.
15:34:07  <NGC3982> I've set the host, ive set the admin port and password.
15:34:23  <peter1138> what happened is the connection dropped
15:34:25  <peter1138> these things happen
15:35:28  <NGC3982> You guys are the weirdest people on the internet
15:35:32  <NGC3982> It solved itself.
15:35:53  <Alberth> common cause is isp is optimizing too much for speed, and sacrificing stability
15:37:03  <Taede> NGC3982, make sure openttd is fully up and listening on the adminport. it doesnt start network till it has scanned all newgrfs
15:37:26  <Taede> so if you have a lot of them, itll take a while before itll accept incoming adminport connections, and you'll get connection failed
15:38:07  <__ln__> Taede: ' ' '
15:39:01  <Taede> as for logs, there's openttd.log next to the executable, and there should also be a log file created by the bot in botdir/bin/logs or thereabouts
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15:40:05  <NGC3982> Taede: I see. I found the log, and as usual it was very simple. I had the admin port open in my NAT, and correctly written in my openttd.cfg. Although, i missed out on the Soap.port parameter.
15:40:11  <NGC3982> Thank you :-)
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16:07:05  <NGC3982> How exciting to see that game creation is one-core, but split between them accordingly.
16:08:39  <Alberth> OS weirdnesses :)
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16:41:26  <Wolf01> it's nice when cortana does what you need... if you cut all the alternatives it can do only the right thing :P
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16:55:52  <andythenorth> DanMacK eh, boot
16:56:00  <andythenorth> island supply vessel
16:57:30  <Alberth> from germany?  :)
16:58:36  <andythenorth> ha
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17:45:16  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27402 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-09-21 19:45:08 +0200 )
17:45:17  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:18  <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
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18:53:00  <andythenorth> is cat
18:55:31  <Wolf01> i've never seen a thing like this (Amsterdam boat traffic), or better, maybe last time i had a trip to Cairo
18:58:01  <andythenorth> wow
19:01:36  <Xaroth|Work> that's the yearly Sail event
19:01:59  <Xaroth|Work> it gets that crazy for a few days every year
19:02:20  <Xaroth|Work>
19:02:31  <Xaroth|Work> << sail at night
19:03:04  <Xaroth|Work> << or a more higher-up view
19:03:56  <Rubidium> Xaroth|Work: you spoiled the fun... you should've said it's just normal rush hour traffic ;)
19:04:41  <Rubidium> having said that, yearly is a bit optimistic
19:06:13  <Rubidium> it's only quinquennial
19:07:09  <Xaroth|Work> true that
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19:21:43  <frosch123> Wolf01: and people already get scared when driving next to a suv :)
19:22:35  <Wolf01> :)
19:25:51  <Wolf01> we have a similar event here in Italy, every year in the Trieste gulf we do the "barcolana", a regatta for every kind of sail boat, all together :P
19:27:27  <NGC3982> 4096^2 map was unplayable on my atom. :(
19:29:49  <frosch123> playing a 4kx4k map is like ending your sentences with 3 exclamation marks
19:30:27  <NGC3982> Hehe
19:30:33  <peter1138> What's wrong with that!!!
19:30:38  <NGC3982> !!!!
19:32:21  <frosch123> peter1138: you need more variety ¡“¿?ï¿œ!
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19:34:48  <NGC3982> Even 2048^2 is unusable as a dedicated server.
19:34:54  <NGC3982> 100% CPU
19:58:30  <_dp_> Is there a way to disallow company from getting cargo from specific industry?
19:58:39  <_dp_> to prevent "stealing" cargo for example
20:01:05  <frosch123> no, but you could detect the stealing and then make the gs remove the station
20:03:04  <_dp_> don't think it can be removed if there is always a train waiting
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20:10:19  <_dp_> also.. any chances for a patch that will address the issuue?)
20:11:23  <_dp_> I bet there were tons of suggestions regarding stealing, it's so common problem
20:11:56  <_dp_> all major communities have anti-stealing rule of some kind, and players break it quite often
20:12:20  <peter1138> the idea of "stealing" is bogus
20:12:25  <frosch123> the biggest mistake of every ottd player is to think that everyone plays like them
20:12:44  <frosch123> i am quite sure the "i destroy the ais"-community is 10 times bigger than yours
20:14:09  <V453000> it isnt as much about any playstyle but about following rules
20:14:24  <V453000> if a server cant manage people to follow them, it doesnt matter what rules they are
20:14:28  <frosch123> there are endless ways to break rules
20:14:32  <frosch123> by blocking paths and what not
20:14:34  <V453000> and it just goes to shit over time
20:14:36  <V453000> yes
20:14:50  <V453000> that is what admins are for
20:14:53  <V453000> to solve shit like that
20:15:27  <V453000> since stealing can be the same as building too close to somebody else == blocking, it is all very close to define :)
20:16:10  <V453000> having people have each their own area is safest for people to not cause problems
20:16:38  <frosch123> yeah, just let everyone play in singleplayer on the same map
20:16:40  <NGC3982> I kind of get what he means, but i still like this game because it's not EVE.
20:16:43  <frosch123> it cannot be fairer than that :)
20:16:54  <V453000> that is in fact a part of the point
20:16:56  <andythenorth> what is ‘stealing’?
20:17:00  * andythenorth is perplexed
20:17:00  <V453000> it is just a way some people enjoy playing
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20:17:07  <V453000> you dont need to compete with anybody or anything
20:17:18  <V453000> you just want to talk to them, learn from them, show them what you do, and discuss it
20:17:20  <_dp_> why require moderators attention for stuff that can be ruled out programmatically?
20:17:27  <V453000> and that is what can drive you to play the game forever
20:17:39  <andythenorth> where is that quote
20:17:47  <andythenorth> about technological solutions to social problems
20:17:48  <V453000> dp the best rule is "do not behave like assholes" and that is hard to do by program :)
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20:18:04  <V453000> every limitation the game could make by program could always be walked around
20:18:18  <V453000> the atmosphere on the server can be spoiled just by agressive chat etc
20:18:35  <_dp_> also stealing sometimes can be worse than blocking, as one useless station immediately takes half of industry production, which can completely screw up your game in no time
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20:19:36  <frosch123> play singleplayer, that makes the players completely indepenent
20:20:01  <V453000> chatting is way important
20:20:21  <NGC3982> _dp_: It seems you wish a new feature in the game, not a rule change. I can understand you, but i do not really think it follows the essence of this game.
20:20:27  <NGC3982> Or at least it's creators.
20:20:56  <andythenorth> industries distribute cargo to multiple players
20:21:07  <andythenorth> they aren’t captured
20:21:22  <andythenorth> it could be probably done as hax in newgrf by dumping rating though
20:21:32  <andythenorth> or by hax on ‘exclusive town rights'
20:22:05  <_dp_> esiest way would be to prevent building any station close to industry, but that's ugly
20:22:10  <frosch123> true, you can make the gs purchase exclusive transport rights for everyone
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20:22:21  <frosch123> and also donate the money to everyone which is used by that
20:23:19  <_dp_> and anti-stealing rules are there for good reason, I experienced that countless times myself how annoying stealing can get
20:23:29  <frosch123> but anyway, i just don't get competitive playing in ottd :)
20:23:49  <frosch123> i get singleplayer and i get cooperative play (which is singleplayer but at larger scale)
20:24:08  <frosch123> competitive with "don't get into each others way" makes no sense to me
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20:24:14  <_dp_> also stealing sometimes provoke blocking wars
20:24:28  *** Taco [~kitty@2407:500::2:981d:d5e9] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:24:57  <_dp_> and I'm only playing competitive :P
20:25:15  <frosch123> yup, you are a mystery to me :)
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20:25:32  <_dp_> btw, anti-stealing rules I'm talking about usually allow sharing primary industries but prohibit taking from secondaries
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20:26:05  <_dp_> as competition is fine, but you can do ridiculous amount of damage taking from secondary
20:26:37  <frosch123> you can also make the gs purchase a 20x20 area around everyones secondary industry :)
20:27:31  <Taede> wouldnt that also prevent the original player from expanding station later on?
20:27:53  <frosch123> no, the gs would purchase it on behalf of the player
20:28:09  <frosch123> gs can execute almost every command in the name of any company
20:28:30  <_dp_> yeah, area blocking is ok solution, we are already using it for a long time actually (just for some cases though)
20:28:53  <_dp_> but would be really nice to have something more accurate, is't just overkill to block everything
20:29:00  <frosch123> though not sure whether purchase land is avaialble in the api, or whther it was considered bad
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20:30:53  <frosch123> _dp_: revive the head2head branch :)
20:30:55  <_dp_> also blocking area can't deal with stations that are already there
20:31:39  <Taede> someone could also build usess stations at any unused secondaries, and end up blocking them all
20:33:24  <_dp_> well, blocking can activate only after successful loading, but still is't a good solution
20:33:49  <Taede> not hard to build a depot and have a small truck start loading
20:33:54  <_dp_> that's why I'd like to have a way to block transfer from industry to station
20:33:57  <Taede> even if theres no cargo to load
20:37:05  <_dp_> h2h is a nice idea but that's not what I'm looking for
20:38:28  <_dp_> actually it's quite easy to do h2h without even patching client
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20:39:51  <_dp_> just rejecting all building commands on wrong side
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20:41:10  <frosch123> so, why don't you do your blocking on the server?
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20:41:23  <frosch123> only allow one station near secondary industries
20:41:37  <frosch123> and only allow players to have 3 unserviced stations at secondary industries
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20:41:40  <frosch123> or something like that
20:42:06  <_dp_> we do blocking for funded industries, that works ok
20:42:33  <_dp_> but doing that for every industry is too much imo, also can be cheated anyway
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20:44:35  <_dp_> probably better solution would be to screw with train orders to prevent it from loading
20:45:01  <frosch123> good luck with non-non-stop orders :p
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20:46:39  <_dp_> yeah, that will be tricky to get right, but it's much closer to preventing taking cargo than land blocking
20:47:35  <_dp_> mb not even touch orders but constantly stop train
20:48:15  <_dp_> still quite ugly solition, would be much better if it was just built in game, with some error message showing even.
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20:58:13  <Eddi|zuHause> <_dp_> don't think it can be removed if there is always a train waiting <-- GS can also send the trains to depot
21:00:05  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, if there is a way to depot ;)
21:00:20  <Eddi|zuHause> GS can also build a depot :p
21:01:06  <_dp_> ... not always either :P
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21:01:49  <_dp_> anyway, I'm not saying it's completely impossible to do now, but still very tricky
21:04:11  <_dp_> patching ttd would probably be easier ;)
21:05:11  <_dp_> and much more clear for players
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21:07:05  <_dp_> ha, I know, if someone tries to steal I can just reset his company xD
21:07:44  <_dp_> modarator would eventualy do the same anyway :P
21:07:45  <Eddi|zuHause> so how do you imagine such a patch would look like?
21:08:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, the solution is fairly simple, change the ratings so the "stealer" gets 0% and thus no cargo, ever. but how do you determine who is stealing and who has a legitimate claim on the industry?
21:08:56  <_dp_> well, it needs a bit of thinking what is the best way to approach it
21:09:26  <_dp_> ye, one option is to add gs command to set station rating
21:09:46  <_dp_> and leave determening stealer for gs
21:10:34  <_dp_> other I just though of is to do some "sharing mode behaviour" switch for every industry (controllable with gs)
21:10:57  <_dp_> most flexible would be to add company mask for industry with some gs api
21:11:27  <Eddi|zuHause> use the recolour bits :)
21:11:51  <Eddi|zuHause> (has the side effect that recolourable industries show the colour of the company that claimed them
21:11:53  <Eddi|zuHause> )
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21:14:59  <_dp_> that sounds fishy :p
21:15:18  <_dp_> also are they rly bits or just company id?
21:17:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how industries store this, but generally recolouring is an index into a list of tables
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23:06:57  <Wolf01> 'night
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