Log for #openttd on 25th September 2015:
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05:44:54  <andythenorth> o/
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06:35:56  <andythenorth> hrm
06:36:21  <andythenorth> I could branch FIRS from trunk at the point where I tagged 1.4.4
06:36:49  <andythenorth> then do a 1.4.5 tag with no changes, and put that on bananas
06:36:56  <andythenorth> it will make a mess of the version history
06:37:03  <andythenorth> meh
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07:13:21  <planetmaker> andythenorth, why would it make a mess with version history?
07:13:41  <planetmaker> sounds like a legit way to handle it. And a normal way to work with a repo
07:15:50  <andythenorth> I know the repo will handle it
07:16:23  <andythenorth> but won’t it look odd that the history of the release is 1.4.4 -> 2.0.0-alpha -> 2.0.0-beta -> 1.4.5
07:16:24  <andythenorth> ?
07:16:40  * andythenorth is confused tbh
07:17:38  <planetmaker> andythenorth, no. And tbh, look at NML repo. It has the same :)
07:17:56  <planetmaker> I made 0.3.x and 0.2.x releases on the same hour actually
07:20:50  <andythenorth> so what happens to people who have 2.0.0-alpha or beta?
07:20:59  <andythenorth> they’ll be offered 1.4.5 as an upgrade
07:21:10  <andythenorth> which breaks their saves
07:21:32  <planetmaker> no savegame will be broken
07:21:58  <andythenorth> ok, so if you already had 2.0.0-alpha release, that stays
07:22:00  <andythenorth> nothing breaks
07:22:10  <andythenorth> but you wouldn’t be able to obtain 2.0.0-alphas
07:22:14  <andythenorth> etc
07:22:15  <andythenorth> ok
07:22:22  <andythenorth> tbh
07:22:24  <planetmaker> hm... but maybe they'll get it offered as upgrade. but not for existing savegames
07:22:45  <planetmaker> dunno how the internal newgrf version is handled... probably just date, right?
07:22:46  <andythenorth> I didn’t understand this when releasing FIRS 2, which caused broken
07:22:52  <andythenorth> I have no better understanding now
07:23:05  <andythenorth> so my inclination is to do nothing
07:23:26  <andythenorth> if I’ve learnt any lessons about engineering, it’s not to poke twicce without understanding what the mistake was the first time
07:23:41  <andythenorth> mess compounding mess
07:23:48  <planetmaker> probably 'nothing' is even the best path of progression for 1.5.x users
07:27:22  * andythenorth ponders. What happes if I want to join a server using FIRS 1.4.4 and I don’t have that grf?
07:28:14  <planetmaker> you get it from bananas
07:28:29  <planetmaker> you *always* get the version you need for a savegame. Whatever OpenTTD version you have
07:28:38  <planetmaker> and servers == savegame for this matter
07:29:03  <planetmaker> and also whatever you set in the settings of the NewGRF. Savegame requiring it overrules it all.
07:33:53  <andythenorth> ok thanks
07:33:59  <andythenorth> the ‘use a new grfid’ ideas seem bad
07:34:02  <andythenorth> dunno why though
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07:34:42  <Zyme> does anyone want to play co-op with FIRS and hardmode? a bit more casual, regular longterm play to make a massive complex network
07:38:34  <andythenorth> Zyme: try openttdcoop? o_O
07:38:55  <andythenorth>
07:39:02  <andythenorth> maybe you knew that already :)
07:39:39  <Zyme> but they are pros
07:39:46  <V453000> no they arent
07:39:55  <V453000> and in fact, FIRS 2 is on public server right now
07:40:10  <V453000> idk what hardmode is
07:41:37  <Zyme> this client basically:
07:43:09  <andythenorth> ‘pros’ :)
07:43:10  <andythenorth> ha
07:43:18  <andythenorth> they just obsess about train length mostly
07:44:34  <Zyme> I want to have fun and not be OCD, but at the same time build a complex network, but I don't really feel like doing it by myself :P
07:47:45  <V453000> the public is a good place to start .)
07:48:29  <Zyme> people just want to compete :P
07:48:37  <Supercheese> I like Reddit server2, I had a fun game on there before
07:48:56  <Supercheese> was my first time trying a Citybuilder script
07:49:45  <Zyme> its fun yeah but no co-op
07:52:31  <V453000> competing in openttd is kind of pointless :)
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10:11:06  <peter1138> andythenorth, yes, train length and signal spacing (always block) are of course the most important part of the game.
10:11:48  <andythenorth> I like the farm fields
10:11:50  <andythenorth> so pretty
10:11:56  <andythenorth> and they change, with the seasons
10:12:04  <andythenorth> or according to random process
10:12:08  <andythenorth> either way
10:12:48  <peter1138> Imagine an infinite world MMO version of openttd, all with trains of 3 tiles long and signals on every tile.
10:13:02  <andythenorth> would be best if it was flat
10:13:18  <peter1138> yes, no obstructions, no pesky towns in the way, and no competition.
10:13:28  <peter1138> trees, they're not needed.
10:13:37  <Eddi|zuHause>  <andythenorth> then do a 1.4.5 tag with no changes, and put that on bananas <-- i would not bother with that...
10:14:44  <Eddi|zuHause> either you get someone to extend bananas to have more than one "newest" version, or you live with the fact that people can't get FIRS for half a year.
10:16:11  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, there may be a way to force availability through some dependency stuff. i've seen things available in multiple versions because some addon grf stated that it required the older version
10:16:12  <andythenorth> what’s the downside of splitting the grfid?
10:16:22  <andythenorth> I don’t like splitting grfid, but can’t remember why
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10:16:44  <Wolf01> hi hi
10:16:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: people won't get the update if they go on bananas and tick "get all updates"
10:17:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and you need to extend compatibility bullshit, because people can add both GRFs to the same game
10:17:26  <andythenorth> yeah
10:17:44  <andythenorth> fun bugs
10:17:46  <andythenorth> for fun
10:17:54  <andythenorth> and broken update chain
10:17:58  <peter1138> just reserve a block of grfids and then disable stuff
10:18:09  <andythenorth> I would like 1 million please
10:18:14  <peter1138> don't ask, just do it
10:18:18  <peter1138> and don't tell anyone
10:18:26  <peter1138> and think people will care
10:18:29  <andythenorth> can I rage quit?
10:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but only if you replace all your existing posts with "..."
10:19:06  <andythenorth> can someone (not me) compile FIRS 1.4.5 with a different grfid, and release it to Bananas as “Stolen FIRS”?
10:19:16  <andythenorth> it would be a nice conflation with Stolen Trees
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10:22:22  <andythenorth> 

10:22:58  <andythenorth> fwiw, I don’t care either way whether FIRS is available for 1.5.x users, I just don’t like that I made a mistake :x
10:23:27  <V453000> XD
10:23:33  <V453000> great logic
10:24:03  <andythenorth> nobody uses FIRS anyway
10:25:11  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you did not do a mistake (I think)
10:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the thing with jokes like "Stolen FIRS" is that they get old pretty quick, and then you sit here in three years asking "why the hell did i do this?"
10:30:40  <V453000> bananas should offer the "last compatible" version of newgrfs imo
10:31:48  <planetmaker> yes, it should
10:31:58  <planetmaker> maybe andy can work on changing bananas accordingly? :)
10:32:24  <V453000> andy should do everything
10:32:32  <V453000> roadtypes go
10:48:06  <andythenorth> andythenorth is busy eating Skyr
10:48:24  <andythenorth> ‘Icelandic style’ yoghurt, made in Germany
10:48:48  <andythenorth> V453000: do you want me to finish RAWR and whatnot?
10:49:58  <V453000> sure
10:50:01  <V453000> want full source?
10:50:14  <V453000> ready for 12849 GB? :P
10:51:47  <andythenorth> nah, no space on my SSD
10:51:53  <andythenorth> sorry :)
10:52:12  * andythenorth counts remaining active contributors
10:52:19  <andythenorth> on fingers
10:52:25  <andythenorth> not down to one hand yet
10:52:29  <V453000> 0?
10:54:10  <andythenorth> 4 OpenTTD committers, one sysadmin, one NoAI/GS, a handful of remaining newgrf authors capable of releasing a finished playable set
10:54:18  <andythenorth> still needs two hands
10:55:07  <andythenorth> :)
10:55:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you know that "<whatever> style" is a euphemism for "knockoff"?
10:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause> "Schnitzel Wiener Art" vs. "Wiener Schnitzel"
10:56:44  <Eddi|zuHause> now i'm hungry...
10:56:48  <andythenorth> “FIRS is TTD-style graphics"
10:57:44  * andythenorth eats a banana
10:57:57  <andythenorth> then ham, bread, cheese, tomato, cucumber after that
10:58:01  <andythenorth> then some crisps
10:58:03  <andythenorth> and coffee
10:58:09  <andythenorth> still hungry? o_O
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10:59:45  <Eddi|zuHause> if you scratch the cheese (unless it's baked), and the coffee...
11:00:18  <Eddi|zuHause> a cordon bleu would be lovely...
11:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not actually sure what a cordon is, and why it's blue...
11:01:54  <SpComb> gordon blue
11:02:04  <peter1138> blue ribbon
11:02:42  <Eddi|zuHause> then, what does that have to do with schnitzel?
11:04:40  <peter1138> no idea, we don't use the word schitzel
11:05:22  <V453000> sauerkraut blitzkrieg
11:06:19  <Eddi|zuHause> your german has detoriated since we last met, i think :p
11:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i think his name was gordon brown :p
11:09:19  <V453000> xd
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15:46:56  <Sylf> Is there a way to change Bananas so it'll make firs 1.X to stable client? Can I volunteer to help?
15:50:07  <andythenorth> frosch packaged bananas and such onto a VM image so that it could be developed on
15:50:19  <andythenorth> ask when he arrives? ;)
15:50:25  <andythenorth> maybe there’s a repo
15:50:26  * andythenorth looks
15:50:44  <andythenorth>;a=tree
15:51:50  <andythenorth> I don’t know how the OpenTTD client talks to bananas though
15:52:04  <andythenorth> I’ve skimmed that repo, it _looks_ like admin UI code
15:52:07  <Alberth> one bit at a time
15:52:26  <andythenorth> the code for returning content to OpenTTD client might be in there somewhere
15:53:31  <Rubidium> msu
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15:53:49  <andythenorth> ?;a=tree
15:54:44  <Alberth> that name sounds like the part that copies stuff to the mirrors
16:00:09  <andythenorth> hmm
16:00:15  * andythenorth is baffleds
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16:01:01  <Alberth> more than one time even, apparently
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16:29:05  <Wolf01> mmh this makes me sick
16:29:37  <Wolf01> but it's indeed a good piece of art
16:30:09  <Alberth> it definitely looks great
16:31:01  <andythenorth> ha ha
16:31:04  <Alberth> it may not be designed to drive around :)
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16:45:38  <__ln__>
16:48:21  <Wolf01> is there a relevant part or we must read everything?
16:49:05  <__ln__> read the pdf linked to at the top
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17:07:57  <Wolf01> lol, they rewrote anything, but hey:
17:09:57  <lastmikoi> that mindset makes me a bit sick...
17:12:14  <Wolf01> "// Hack to support launch, will fix next week" ahah, who does not have a comment like this buried in code... and written ages ago
17:13:46  <lastmikoi> people without silly deadlines.
17:15:53  <Wolf01> so, long story short, he fucked up his own account
17:16:38  <Alberth> :)
17:16:49  <lastmikoi> long story short, they lack a staging environment
17:17:24  <lastmikoi> which is very odd.
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18:18:28  <andythenorth> quak
18:18:46  <frosch123> hoi
18:19:31  <Wolf01> o/
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18:34:29  <andythenorth> so the next version of Iron Horse breaks saves completely, and needs beta testing
18:34:39  <andythenorth> so I should go back to releasing test grfs on forums?
18:34:57  <andythenorth> it was decided some years ago that was a bad pattern and should stop
18:35:19  <andythenorth> but the bananas route doesn’t handle major version changes at all
18:35:24  <Wolf01> release it on bananas as "stolen iron horse"
18:36:17  <andythenorth> stolen fish
18:36:36  <andythenorth> why don’t we change grfids any more?
18:36:44  * andythenorth is in world of puzzle :)
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18:42:30  <andythenorth> ha
18:43:34  <andythenorth> could the road vehicle pathfinder be weighted to avoid traffic?
18:43:51  <andythenorth> if there are two equal edges between current node and next node?
18:44:07  <andythenorth> or is that too computationally demanding?
18:44:50  <frosch123> it does that for roadstops, but for regular road tiles there is no good method to track whether there are vehicles
18:45:16  <blathijs> The train pathfinder already does that (or at least, NPF does)
18:45:34  <frosch123> yes, but for trains it is easier, especially since pbs reservations
18:45:44  <andythenorth> I can understand the problem
18:45:45  <andythenorth> nvm
18:46:10  <andythenorth> the ‘problem’ is that andythenorth is too lazy to build and signal train routes
18:46:17  <andythenorth> so spams a lot of RVs
18:46:27  <andythenorth> also pikka’s AI keeps building the roads I need for me
18:46:29  <andythenorth> so why not?
18:47:03  <andythenorth> it leads to boring set design though, because I make everything in Road Hog the same speed per generation
18:47:12  <andythenorth> and all types have new generations introduced at the same time
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19:13:33  <andythenorth> wow
19:13:44  <andythenorth> pikka’s AI has grown a 30k popn town, with just a few buses :P
19:14:25  <Alberth> 4 buses and patience is sufficient afaik
19:16:45  <frosch123> 1 bus is enough
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20:32:09  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> could the road vehicle pathfinder be weighted to avoid traffic? <-- iirc there was a patch about that
20:32:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, trains do this by signal states and track reservation, neither of which works for roads
20:33:16  <Eddi|zuHause> track reservation somewhat assumes that only one vehicle is on that track
20:34:05  <Eddi|zuHause> two trains on the same trackbit is really tricky to achieve, but it happens all the time for road vehicles
20:34:59  <Eddi|zuHause> so for road you rather need a reservation counter, but road tiles are some of the most stuffed tiles in the game
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