Log for #openttd on 27th September 2015:
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06:45:04  <andythenorth> o/
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07:00:49  <Alberth> moin
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07:07:54  * andythenorth wonders
07:08:18  <andythenorth> FIRS Tropic Basic has zero sea-based industries
07:08:24  <andythenorth> leaves the sea looking a bit bare
07:09:03  <Alberth> and tropical having such inviting waters
07:10:07  <andythenorth> could have fishing grounds
07:10:11  <andythenorth> producing food
07:10:15  <andythenorth> bit weird
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07:13:35  <Alberth> tourists diving to old wrecks :p
07:25:52  <andythenorth> treasure :)
07:26:03  <andythenorth> actually, treasure is not a bad industry idea
07:27:07  <andythenorth>,0.5,0,0&defaultimage=default_details_George_rd
07:28:13  <Alberth> ah, the inevitable sharks :)
07:30:09  <Alberth> you can also dive for gold, apparently
07:48:13  <TrueBrain> MySQL will be out taking a piss for the next ~15 minutes; a lot of services will be unavailable during that time
07:48:53  <andythenorth> a truebr*in’s work is never done :)
07:49:16  <TrueBrain> well, I am really happy when this is over :P
07:49:38  <andythenorth> a happy TrueBrain is a good thing
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08:01:36  <TrueBrain> MySQL is purring again
08:02:14  <V453000> cat found
08:03:33  <Alberth> :)
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08:26:09  <andythenorth> happy cat
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08:37:26  <dlhero> andythenorth: I think ships are a little bit neglected :(
08:39:10  <andythenorth> in the game, or in newgrfs?
08:42:33  <dlhero> both. I played a long game with Squid Ate Fish and after a certain year running costs rise to the point that they are not usable
08:47:07  <dlhero> generally I think they are not balanced and there is no good ship variety
08:47:31  <dlhero> no roro ships etc etc
08:51:03  <dlhero> or certain ferries are not represented at all. for example this
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08:53:47  <Wolf01> o/
08:53:55  <andythenorth> hmm
08:54:10  <andythenorth> running costs scale linearly in Squid, they’re directly proportional to capacity and speed
08:54:18  <andythenorth> dlhero: do you have inflation on in your game?
08:54:25  <dlhero> of course i do.
08:54:46  <andythenorth> yeah, inflation is a known bug
08:54:54  <andythenorth> really it should be removed
08:55:05  <andythenorth> it generates a lot of ‘newgrf is broken’ reports
08:55:38  <dlhero> hehe i really have no problem with costs
08:55:46  <dlhero> but it doesn't seem to be all that proportional
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08:56:26  <dlhero> e.g. the maspalomas is 233,780gbp/year (speed=42, capacity=1440)
08:56:49  <dlhero> while the pegwell super is 255,944gbp/year (speed=100, capacity=100)
08:57:10  <dlhero> it doesn't seem it scales linearly with speed/capacity
08:57:40  <andythenorth> is that pegwell broken?
08:57:44  <andythenorth> it should be 400 cap
08:58:13  <dlhero> 400pax. 100 cargo
08:59:05  <andythenorth> that’s what happens when I have the development version, and it’s a bit ahead of the released version :P
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08:59:18  <andythenorth> there is no freight refit on the pegwell in my version
08:59:30  <andythenorth> partly because of that silly disparity
08:59:38  <andythenorth> but mostly because, eh not needed
08:59:58  <dlhero> use it for eng supplies on firs.
08:59:59  <Alberth> quak
09:01:09  <frosch123> moin
09:02:44  <andythenorth> it’s possible that the run costs on the big freighters are just too low
09:04:38  <dlhero> a cool feature for certain "tankers" would be disappearing cargo
09:04:48  <andythenorth> disaster: ship sank :P
09:04:56  <dlhero> certain lng freighters run on what they carry :)
09:05:28  <dlhero> that too
09:06:07  <frosch123> hope that your stuff is not in the container on the ship border?
09:06:42  <andythenorth> fwiw, the pax ferries were deliberately removed from current Squid
09:06:54  <andythenorth> no point to them if you have a 70mph, 400 pax hovercraft
09:07:05  <andythenorth> literally never would you choose a slow ferry instead
09:07:21  <frosch123> i thought removing them was an investment?
09:07:22  <dlhero> 2.8κ ψαπαψιτυ?
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09:07:27  <dlhero> 2.8k capacity?
09:07:41  <frosch123> only if you remove stuff, you can later have a feature that reintroduces stuff
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09:08:08  <andythenorth> frosch123: that is rather too close to the truth :P
09:08:23  <andythenorth> anyway, anyone who wants to make a ‘comprehensive’ ship set
09:08:36  <andythenorth> there are a *lot* of currently unused sprites in FISH/Squid
09:08:42  <andythenorth> and the code is quite easy to work with
09:09:46  <dlhero> well it's a shame imho. since there are no fast ships around
09:10:04  <dlhero> and hovercrafts are not really used
09:10:27  <dlhero> I've never seen a hovercraft operating commercially
09:10:45  <Alberth> so?
09:11:02  <Alberth> openttd is a game rather than a real-world simulation
09:11:03  <andythenorth>
09:11:22  <dlhero> Alberth: for fun :)
09:11:26  <Alberth> you ever saw trains going in 45 degrees corners in reality?
09:12:15  <Alberth> dlhero: well, feel free to hide the hovercraft and just not use it
09:12:43  <andythenorth> I went on this one in the summer
09:12:59  <andythenorth> the takeoff is slightly spooky and surreal
09:13:16  <andythenorth> and it powerslides away down the ramp sideways in quite an epic style
09:14:34  <dlhero> hehe yeah
09:37:24  <andythenorth> someone did fork Squid
09:37:29  <andythenorth> to make RedFISH
09:50:06  <TrueBrain> okay, the last machine ... and everything related to that will be unavailable for a few
09:57:10  <TrueBrain> grr, unplug is taking for ever .. :(
10:00:30  <TrueBrain> right; machine is booting ... tick tack
10:01:53  <TrueBrain> okay; all services should be back up and running
10:02:02  <TrueBrain> let me know if anything is not please :)
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10:12:31  * SpComb installs icinga for TrueBrain
10:13:29  <TrueBrain> you won't like the status it returns
10:14:45  <TrueBrain> disk full, out of memory, not enough CPU, etc .. long list of warnings :P
10:14:57  <TrueBrain> connectivity errors
10:14:59  <TrueBrain> invalid protocol
10:15:14  <TrueBrain> hehe, describing a human in terms of nagios is fun :D
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11:06:02  <andythenorth> hurgh
11:06:08  <andythenorth> FIRS Stockyard could use another layout
11:06:11  <andythenorth> I’m bored of this one :P
11:06:26  <andythenorth>
11:07:06  <Alberth> bit massive
11:09:19  <andythenorth> as massive buildings go, I’m ok with it
11:09:27  <andythenorth> but I would do it differently if starting from scratch
11:09:45  <Alberth> everybody would
11:10:55  <peter1138> Does that page show all layouts?
11:10:56  <Alberth> if you wouldn't, you either haven't leaned anything, or or you picked the one optimal solution for the unknown problem
11:11:37  <Alberth> peter1138:  not by a long shot
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11:15:16  <andythenorth> nah
11:15:35  * andythenorth ponders writing a layout renderer for the docs
11:15:56  <andythenorth> I’d need a sprite parser, and a spritesorter, in PIL
11:16:01  <frosch123> sounds like a thing andy would do :)
11:16:13  <andythenorth> I don’t fancy it much tbh
11:16:30  <andythenorth> eh, if I can render industries in python, it’s only one step more to reimplement OpenTTD, right?
11:16:34  <andythenorth> in a slow language
11:16:50  <andythenorth> o_O
11:21:22  <Alberth> people do these things in a browser in javascript :p
11:21:46  <andythenorth> javascript is super awesome
11:21:49  <andythenorth> lightning fast
11:22:02  <andythenorth> and you don’t need to be a good programmer to write highly performant software in it
11:22:06  <andythenorth> said nobody ever
11:22:13  <Alberth> hmm, I need an excuse to learn it
11:23:31  <andythenorth>
11:23:54  <andythenorth> otoh
11:24:11  <andythenorth> my hatred of javascript is nearly 15 years out of date
11:24:26  <andythenorth> I started using it, and had a rapid crash course in browser compatibility
11:24:32  <andythenorth> followed by Much Regrets
11:24:49  <andythenorth> I switched to a ‘proper’ language
11:24:53  <andythenorth> Flash ActionScript :P
11:27:31  <Alberth> language wars are always 'fun' :p
11:29:00  <andythenorth> this rant is enjoyable though
11:29:07  <andythenorth> he’s right
11:29:26  <andythenorth> but I have node.js code in production nonetheless
11:29:32  <frosch123> see, i was lucky: i never had to use mysql, i could already use psql
11:30:23  <frosch123> i never learnt perl, because python was already around
11:30:58  <andythenorth> we did some mysql
11:31:02  <frosch123> i never learnt advanced c preprocessor magic, because templates were already around
11:31:03  <andythenorth> for ‘high performance’ stuff
11:31:07  <andythenorth> ha
11:31:22  <frosch123> i never learnt java awt, because swing was already around (?)
11:32:02  <frosch123> otoh, i learned nfo, because nml wasn't around :p
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11:32:44  * andythenorth misses nfo
11:32:45  * _dp_ never learnt machine code coz assembler was already around...
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11:33:12  <frosch123> hah, i learnt machine code because i wanted to write my own disassembler :p
11:37:27  <andythenorth> this Road Hog is not done yet :(
11:37:46  * andythenorth playing
11:37:56  <andythenorth> none of you ever use FIRS Basic economies, right?
11:38:21  <frosch123> huh? none of us ever uses full firs
11:38:31  <andythenorth> is that because Nobody Uses FIRS? :)
11:38:57  <frosch123> you do, isn't that enough?
11:39:40  <andythenorth> apparently
11:39:50  <andythenorth> it’s still being developed it seems
11:42:22  <andythenorth> might add Fish back to Tropic and Temperate Basic
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11:42:23  <andythenorth><economy.Economy%20object%20at%200xf21dd0>
11:42:37  <andythenorth> eh that’s a terrible id on that div
11:42:43  <andythenorth> who wrote that :P
11:43:42  * andythenorth misses sea industries
11:52:03  <Demosthenex> so, i have a station next to a dairy in FIRS. i deliver milk, i expect to see food come out. turns out the town nearby is attached to the same station and accepts food. is it being automatically sold?
11:52:11  <Demosthenex> i just want ot make sure my food isn't just disappearing
11:53:03  <andythenorth> it won’t automatically be delivered to the town
11:57:37  <andythenorth> do you have vehicles collecting it? o_O
12:06:14  <Demosthenex> no, the food's just gone
12:18:07  <Demosthenex> i have milk trains droppping off.
12:18:40  <Demosthenex> but like i said, the station accepts food, you sure it wouldn't just get "eaten"? the dairy says it produced 155 tons one month and 0 later...
12:18:47  <Demosthenex> no pickup vehicles at all
12:19:06  <dlhero> that's why it's 0
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12:20:14  <Demosthenex> so i should try to pick up food once to start it stocking at the station
12:22:23  <Alberth> it doesn't start stocking until you try loading it
12:23:25  <Alberth> unless you switch a setting back to the original behavior, that is
12:23:44  <Alberth> but then you get bad ratings due to not handling cargo
12:24:13  <Alberth> so it's better to leave the switch as is, and start loading
12:24:36  <Demosthenex> just confused by non-original behavior. got it now.
12:24:53  <Alberth> how did you get milk then?
12:25:11  <Alberth> surely, there was no milk before you started adding vehicles
12:25:39  <Demosthenex> strictly secondary industry.
12:25:48  <Demosthenex> i expected to see an output when i provided an input
12:26:49  <Alberth> confusing default industry behavior with FIRS, eh?
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12:27:24  <Alberth> keep in mind that most industry sets do very different things than the default industries
12:30:21  <Demosthenex> yeah, first time with firs though.
12:30:36  <Demosthenex> milk was the first thing that i could find to ship aorund
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13:26:03  <George> Hi
13:26:32  <George> Is it safe to change Te depending on current speed?
13:26:42  <George> Would it cause desync?
13:45:34  <peter1138> why would you do that?
13:53:32  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
13:53:37  <Flygon> peter1138: Gears
13:53:48  <Flygon> Some Diesel-Hydralic DMUs use Gears
13:53:56  <Flygon> The VLocities and Sprinters being examples locally
13:54:17  <Flygon> And they do have different acceleration curves depending on what gear they're in. It's not exactly 'smooth' like an Electric motor xP
13:58:52  <peter1138> yers
13:58:59  <peter1138> George, it will desync
13:59:55  <George> Thanks, peter
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15:06:24  <andythenorth> Demosthenex: FIRS should produce output straight away when cargo is delivered, otherwise there’s a bug :)
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15:30:26  <andythenorth> @seen danmack
15:30:26  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 0 hours, 58 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
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15:44:45  <Demosthenex> andythenorth: it does, AFTER i've made something capable of picking up the cargo show up at the station
15:44:53  <andythenorth> yeah
15:45:16  <Demosthenex> that was the problem. i was putting in milk, and getting paid, but no food. i was going ot stockpile a bit while i made my next route
15:45:52  <andythenorth> there is an advanced setting in OpenTTD somewhere
15:45:57  <Demosthenex> its ok
15:46:00  <Demosthenex> now that i know, no prblem.
15:46:19  <andythenorth> hmm
15:46:20  <Demosthenex> i'm still broke but i love the challenge. i may finally get the chance to figure out cargodist
15:46:32  * andythenorth should write a better cargodist guide
15:46:45  <Demosthenex> i've just started experimenting with feeder stations in vanilla ttd
15:46:56  <andythenorth> Demosthenex: if you have cargodist questions, ask them here, I might be able to write answers I can reuse later
15:46:57  <Demosthenex> so keep my mainlines open, and use transfers and long haul
15:47:06  <Demosthenex> the next logical step would be to learn cargodist
15:47:10  <Demosthenex> sure
15:47:50  <Demosthenex> actually, is is cargodIst or cargodEst?
15:52:11  <andythenorth> dist
15:52:30  <andythenorth> it’s in the ‘Cargo distribution’ section of settings
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15:53:44  <andythenorth>
16:01:02  <_dp_> is there a way to nerf planes without newgrfs?
16:01:39  <Demosthenex> and the difference between {station,amount}/{waiting,planned}?
16:06:32  <Demosthenex> it was non-obvious that the cargo distribution legend was where you actually controlled the view
16:06:57  <Demosthenex> also, you can't say "30% of this output to this dest, and 70% to another". cargodist is just going to evenly or psuedorandomly spread it out?
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16:11:42  <andythenorth> there is a demand function
16:11:59  <andythenorth> if distance effect is 100%, demand is scaled by distance
16:12:08  <Demosthenex> even better, so more cargo to where it makes more money.
16:12:14  <andythenorth> no
16:12:18  <andythenorth> just by distance
16:12:33  <Demosthenex> f(money) ~= f(distance)
16:12:37  <andythenorth> and cargo will be distributed in proportion to the distance
16:12:56  <andythenorth> if distance effect is 0%, then cargo will be distributed evenly as 1/number destinations
16:13:23  <Demosthenex> lastly, i have a small network of trucks in a star pattern now, with cargodest is it better that i change that pattern to a ring or multistop?
16:13:27  <andythenorth> *less* cargo to more distant locations btw
16:13:40  <andythenorth> broadly, distance effect makes no sense except for pax, but can’t be tuned by cargo
16:13:59  <Demosthenex> really?! i thought you made more $ the further it goes.. so why wouldn't it try to send it far?
16:14:44  <andythenorth> I believe the intention is (1) to simulate local pax journeys (commuting etc) (2) long-distance floods pax networks with unmanageable numbers of pax
16:15:12  <Demosthenex> ok.
16:15:22  <Demosthenex> bakc to the route pattern, star or other?
16:16:31  <dlhero> andythenorth: when does pax become unmanageable?
16:16:37  <dlhero> 12k-14k?
16:16:56  <andythenorth> depends on what newgrfs you have etc, and your play style, and the game date
16:17:11  <andythenorth> ‘unamanageable’ is a function of capacity-per-tile-per-unit-of-time
16:19:28  <andythenorth> Demosthenex: for pax I’d just connect everything
16:21:14  <andythenorth> the pattern doesn’t matter much as long as your vehicles flow well
16:21:50  <andythenorth> for freight cargo, point-to-point is easiest to manage
16:22:26  <andythenorth> transfers work fine too
16:22:58  <andythenorth> be sure to use ‘no loading’ orders on vehicles at drop-off stations
16:23:19  <andythenorth> otherwise you can get cargo unexpectedly back-loading
16:23:48  <andythenorth> also use non-stop orders if the vehicle travels through any intermediate stations, or the effects can be very weird
16:25:23  <andythenorth> also if a station already has a route, and additional routes are added, there is a long delay (3 months in my games) before cdist will assign cargo to the new route, which can cause vehicles to wait a long time, blocking stations
16:25:36  <andythenorth> (for pickup stations)
16:28:24  <andythenorth> finally, whatever anyone else says, cargodist *does not* attempt to assign cargo to destinations in proportion to route capacity
16:29:50  <andythenorth> however if there are two valid routes for the same source-destination, cargodist *does* attempt to load-balance between those routes
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17:24:59  <dlhero> andythenorth: several industries with cargodist could "ask" for certain cargo
17:25:27  <dlhero> e.g. port asks for 224 units of goods/fruit/msupplies whatever
17:45:25  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27405 /trunk/src/lang (latin.txt vietnamese.txt) (2015-09-27 19:45:15 +0200 )
17:45:26  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:27  <DorpsGek> latin - 2 changes by Supercheese
17:45:28  <DorpsGek> vietnamese - 18 changes by nglekhoi
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18:37:28  <George> Hi.
18:38:10  <George> Is there a way to display current TE in realistic acceleration?
18:39:18  <George>
18:39:28  <George> TE = min (TE{SUB()}eng{SUB}, TE{SUB()}max{SUB})
18:40:15  <George> F{SUB()}incl{SUB}
18:46:33  <frosch123> isn't it shown in the train details?
18:47:07  <Demosthenex> any shortcuts for changing time in a timetable i should  know? doubleclicking doesn't let me edit
18:47:23  <frosch123> check hotkeys.cfg
18:47:28  <frosch123> and possibly add your own ones
18:56:24  <peter1138> only the current max TE is shown
19:04:13  <Terkhen> hello
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19:12:19  <George> peter1138: and how can I see current TE, not max TE
19:12:22  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen :)
19:13:17  <peter1138> you can't, there's no particular need
19:13:35  <peter1138> maybe a debug window shows it
19:14:45  <George> how can I see it in debug window?
19:23:47  <peter1138> try the usual debug windows, i doubt its shown though
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19:42:39  <peter1138> they're justified
19:42:44  <peter1138> and they're ancient
19:43:29  <peter1138> bound for mu mu land
19:47:46  <andythenorth> all aboard all aboard
19:48:08  <andythenorth> but have you got?
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20:04:23  * andythenorth wants to see this
20:04:32  <andythenorth> it was at dismaland, but that’s over now
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21:35:35  <Demosthenex> omg, so what's the fastest way to reconfigure 20 trains (ie: cars)
21:39:20  <Demosthenex> i know how to replace engines, but to reconfigure all the wagons...
21:39:27  <Demosthenex> i'm likely to just sell them all :P
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22:42:49  <FLHerne> Demosthenex: You can replace wagons the same way as engines
22:44:27  <FLHerne> Demosthenex: Where it says "Replacing: Engines", toggle it
22:44:27  <FLHerne> If the new wagons are longer than the old ones, you might need to toggle wagon removal
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22:52:35  <Demosthenex> FLHerne: only with replacements for the same cargo type
22:53:26  <FLHerne> Well, yes
22:53:35  <FLHerne> Generally that's what people want to do?
23:06:46  <Demosthenex> i needed to reconfigure the wagons on 20 trains :P
23:06:58  <Demosthenex> i just sold them all
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23:28:52  <Wolf01> 'night
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