Log for #openttd on 30th October 2015:
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00:21:46  <Wolf01> 'night
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07:45:16  * andythenorth considers making chibi chinese trains
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07:46:17  <Pikka> but it's been done
07:46:31  <andythenorth> really nicely too
07:46:35  <andythenorth> I’m just jealous
07:46:42  <Pikka> are they hand drawn? I can't tell
07:48:09  <Supercheese> they're certainly well-drawn
08:07:31  <andythenorth> super-rendered no?
08:07:34  <andythenorth> also
08:20:57  <andythenorth> yeah, super-rendered
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11:24:57  <Pikka> o/
11:25:03  <Alberth> moin
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11:29:31  <andythenorth> o/
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12:27:55  <andythenorth> the thing about trucks
12:28:01  <andythenorth> is you need a lot on long routes
12:28:04  <andythenorth> a *lot*
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12:28:53  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what ctrl+clone is for
12:29:18  <andythenorth> then if there is a supply problem, they block stations horribly :D
12:29:41  * andythenorth may be missing the point of the game somewhere
12:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no "overflow depot" for trucks
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14:58:12  <Alberth> o/
14:59:52  <andythenorth> o/
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15:01:16  <Wolf01> o/
15:01:35  <Alberth> \o
15:02:47  * andythenorth wonders what % of lines in the channel are o/
15:03:38  <Eddi|zuHause> an insignificant amount compared to "x is joining/leaving"
15:03:59  <Wolf01> mmmh, i need to find a way to optimise my game engine, just the tiles and a moving square runs at 42-50FPS and eats about 60MB of RAM :|
15:04:41  <Alberth> nah, make a deal with a major memory chip manufacturer :p
15:04:54  <Wolf01> also i want the tile array to support multiple levels in future
15:05:17  <Wolf01> so i'll switch to a jagged array
15:05:47  <Alberth> I use stacks of voxels
15:06:11  <Alberth> ie base_height + number of levels
15:06:36  <Wolf01> mine is a 2D game, a remake of a remake i made a lot of time ago
15:07:17  <Alberth> ah, meta-meta-game creation :)
15:07:45  <Alberth> I have a dimetric view
15:07:52  <Wolf01> but voxels are interesting, they could add nice special effects to the game
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15:08:57  <Alberth> voxels for me are nothing more than a cube box in conceptual 3d space, nothing to do with graphics
15:09:35  <Alberth> ie it's a tile + height upto the next level tile
15:10:27  <Alberth> a way to split the world in tiles
15:10:31  <Wolf01> yeah, but since i have destroyable walls, i could make them with voxels (just one level) and spread them around with each explosion
15:10:59  <Alberth> sounds good :)
15:11:59  <Wolf01> the game is this one:
15:12:25  <Wolf01> there are a lot of 2/3D clones, but i want to make mine, with modding support :)
15:15:39  <Alberth>  this is the game I am talking about, clone of a well-known theme park development game :p
15:16:06  <Wolf01> :o
15:17:09  <Wolf01> eheh, i see some well known names on the contributors page, well done ;)
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15:37:50  <Alberth> figured out how you need 50MB for that? seems a bit steep for a flat 2d area
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15:39:17  <Wolf01> at least 15MB are for the jit debugger
15:39:40  <Wolf01> so the release build should be less hungry
15:39:42  <Alberth> that should be simple to reclaim :)
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15:41:36  <Wolf01> i think it's the tiles data structure i'm using, oop is really memory wasteful compared to other solutions, but it's easier to work with
15:44:18  <Wolf01> i'm tuning the rendering engine now, maybe that could help a lot
15:46:30  <Wolf01> since some layers don't change for the entire match, i compose the images starting from the tiles just once, then i have a hamburger of bitmaps to draw at every tick
15:47:29  <Wolf01> maybe the bitmaps are too much expensive and i should just redraw the dirty tiles
15:47:53  <Alberth> blitting at the video is pretty fast
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15:48:05  <Alberth> as long as you use GPU
15:49:07  <Wolf01> uhm, i didn't think about that, i should use the xna stuff instead of the internal functions
15:50:39  <Alberth> isn't xna sort of dead?
15:51:25  <Wolf01> maybe it is, i have also unity as alternative
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16:06:56  <Alberth> quak
16:10:10  <frosch123> hoi
16:11:18  <Wolf01> o/
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16:17:03  <Wolf01> o/
16:18:10  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27418 trunk/src/pathfinder/follow_track.hpp (2015-10-30 17:18:03 +0100 )
16:18:11  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6329] [FS#6379]: Desync due to incorrect storage of segments with different railtype in the YAPF cache. (JGR)
16:18:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27419 trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp (2015-10-30 17:18:39 +0100 )
16:18:46  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6369]: CmdSellRailWagon did not revert all actions properly when no orderlist could be allocated. (Juanjo)
16:19:15  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27420 trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp (2015-10-30 17:19:09 +0100 )
16:19:16  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6362]: GrowTownAtRoad sometimes returned false, even when a house was built. (_dp_)
16:19:32  <andythenorth> yay :)
16:19:33  <andythenorth> commits :)
16:19:38  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27421 trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp (2015-10-30 17:19:33 +0100 )
16:19:39  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6265]: Consider text and icon sizes when drawing the client list. (_dp_)
16:20:06  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27422 /trunk/src (aircraft_cmd.cpp direction_func.h) (2015-10-30 17:20:00 +0100 )
16:20:07  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6341]: Aircraft picked the wrong airport entry point, if airports were rotated by 180 degree. (marcole)
16:22:12  <frosch123> <- some more patches by myself for review
16:23:05  <andythenorth> o_O
16:23:08  <andythenorth> busy
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16:50:36  <Alberth> frosch123: 22241  would it be useful to move the todo text to the order gui?
16:56:02  <Alberth> 22244  !(flags & DC_QUERY_COST)   ->  (flags & DC_QUERY_COST) == 0      ?
16:56:10  <Alberth> otherwise looks good to me
17:15:13  <frosch123> do you know a good place in order_gui ?
17:16:48  <Alberth> in the class header, @todo     ?
17:18:00  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27423 trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp (2015-10-30 18:17:54 +0100 )
17:18:01  <DorpsGek> -Fix: When towns expanded single-bit roadtiles using a grid-layout, they used the layout position of the neighbouring tile.
17:19:08  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27424 trunk/src/road.cpp (2015-10-30 18:19:01 +0100 )
17:19:09  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6374]: Towns did not connect roads to existing roads, unless they had only a single roadbit. Otoh, towns also tried to connect to single roadbit tiles such as tunnels and depots, even though they were not connectable in the direction of interest.
17:22:30  <_dp_> yaaay, bugfixes!)))
17:23:23  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27425 /trunk/src (order_gui.cpp window.cpp) (2015-10-30 18:23:16 +0100 )
17:23:24  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5842]: Crash when switching to or taking over companies, when an order window of a vehicle of the new company was opened. Now close those windows.
17:24:11  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27426 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2015-10-30 18:24:05 +0100 )
17:24:12  <DorpsGek> -Change: Round loading percentage in loading indicators and conditional orders towards 50%, so that 0% and 100% mean completely empty or full.
17:24:36  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27427 /trunk/src (4 files) (2015-10-30 18:24:30 +0100 )
17:24:37  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Use the NewGRF railtype sorting order in the infrastructure window.
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17:27:27  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27428 /trunk/src (vehicle_cmd.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp) (2015-10-30 18:27:21 +0100 )
17:27:28  <DorpsGek> -Fix: When selecting a refit cargo for orders, do not check whether the vehicle is in a depot or station, and do not ask whether the vehicle currently allows station-refitting. Also hide the refit cost for orders, it is not predictable.
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17:32:43  <andythenorth> ^ what does that actually change?
17:32:53  <frosch123> <- that
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18:08:52  <andythenorth> might be time for a Busy Bee game again soon
18:08:56  <andythenorth> after I beat SV :P
18:17:34  <Alberth> :)
18:17:51  <andythenorth> I should fix my BB patch :P
18:18:00  <andythenorth> it needs savegame support
18:18:15  <andythenorth>
18:18:36  <andythenorth> oh there was some reason I couldn’t just do savegame support
18:18:57  <andythenorth> there is a serialise function that needs extending iirc, it assumes only goals
18:20:12  <Alberth> reverse condition?   if (this.accept.ind in cdata.won_goals["industries"]) { ... } else { /* do something */  }   :)
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18:20:46  <Alberth> probably if (!(this.accept.ind in cdata.won_goals["industries"]))
18:23:50  <Alberth> gn
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18:54:26  <planetmaker> good evenink :)
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18:55:07  <andythenorth> lo planetmaker
18:56:28  <tipsyTentacle> Hello. (:
19:04:48  <Wolf01> uh, i just remembered i need to write a collision system :|
19:06:53  <tipsyTentacle> Are you coding a game? :O
19:06:57  <Wolf01> yes
19:07:22  <tipsyTentacle> :O good luck and have fun!
19:07:35  <andythenorth> bounding box
19:07:46  <Wolf01> i expected "you are a fool"
19:08:27  <andythenorth> you are a fool
19:08:50  <frosch123> i wondered whether you want to detect, prevent or encourage collissions
19:09:04  <Wolf01> all the three
19:10:28  <Wolf01> i want to prevent tanks colliding with walls, i want projectiles colliding with walls and tanks, and i want to know when something is colliding with something but not to block it
19:11:28  <Wolf01> i'm doing it from zero, i want to learn the hard way before giving up and use gamemaker or some other game studio
19:11:51  <tipsyTentacle> So have a system to detect it first and then everything else will fall into place? If collision detected, prevent movement?
19:12:18  <Wolf01> yes
19:14:31  <andythenorth> I don’t know how it’s done properly
19:14:39  <andythenorth> but I would use primitive shapes
19:14:44  <andythenorth> and test for overlap
19:14:57  <andythenorth> by comparing ranges of x and y co-ords
19:15:01  <Wolf01> me too, with rectangles i have the intersect functions
19:15:01  <andythenorth> on each frame
19:15:08  <andythenorth> oh easy then :)
19:15:14  <Wolf01> so, i can test on bounding boxes
19:15:21  <andythenorth> job done, no?
19:15:25  <Wolf01> maybe
19:15:42  <Wolf01> it's all easy when it's an idea
19:15:48  <andythenorth> if the shape is too big / complex for a single rectangle, more rectangles
19:15:59  <Wolf01> nah, i just have squares
19:16:11  <andythenorth> in flash I sometimes used to ‘optimise’ by not checking objects that were too far apart to collide
19:16:36  <frosch123> Wolf01: you may want to divide objects into moving ones and static ones
19:16:42  <andythenorth> it’s quite easy to calculate and cache that for n frames if your objects have predictable velocity
19:17:02  <andythenorth> oops
19:17:04  <Wolf01> frosch123, yes, the moving ones are the only which should check
19:17:05  <frosch123> put the static ones into an octree or similar to reduce the number of tests
19:17:11  <andythenorth> if I look like I know how to program, no-one will help me :o
19:17:18  * andythenorth thinks of dumb questions to ask
19:17:26  <andythenorth> octree, that’s a good word I don’t know
19:17:30  <andythenorth> proves I’m not proper
19:17:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: do you know what a binary tree is?
19:17:58  <andythenorth> unfortunately
19:18:33  <frosch123> if yes, then think of a binary tree as something one dimensional, a quadtree as the same in two dimensions, and an octree as the same in three dimensions
19:19:28  <andythenorth> makes sense
19:19:30  <Wolf01> also, i really need to reduce drastically the code duplication, i just started to develop using c# :P
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19:57:46  <andythenorth> I won!!!
19:58:11  <andythenorth> time for a new game
19:59:08  <frosch123> my only customer :)
19:59:56  <andythenorth> GS is a neglected area
20:00:03  <andythenorth> if we had a new scenario format

20:05:32  * andythenorth needs snow in tropic
20:05:37  <andythenorth> for Argentina / Chile
20:05:38  <andythenorth> :P
20:13:46  <andythenorth> what will I play next?
20:13:51  <andythenorth> FIRS Tropic Basic is boring
20:13:58  <andythenorth> I mean, I’ve improved it, but still boring
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20:26:38  <andythenorth> I could play NoCarGoal o_O
20:26:43  <andythenorth> I _could_ write a GS
20:26:48  <andythenorth> but then I’d have two problems :P
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20:37:13  <Wolf01> enough for today... i can draw multiple tiles and tiles with sub-tiles
20:37:52  <Wolf01> monday i could try to develop the collisions
20:37:59  <andythenorth> :)
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20:39:10  <Wolf01> tiles with subtiles could be nasty, because they are the destroyable wall tiles and i need to check the bounding boxes of the sub tiles
20:41:19  <andythenorth> nah should be ok
20:41:28  <andythenorth> if I’ve understood you correctly
20:41:39  <andythenorth> “when I used to write flash games
20:42:04  <andythenorth> it’s reasonably common to check the (fast) bounding box of a large parent object
20:42:18  <andythenorth> and then iff collision detected, check the bb of subtiles
20:42:27  <andythenorth> or subobjects
20:43:26  <andythenorth> the interesting cases are when multiple moving objects collide with a destroyable or movable object :P
20:43:43  <andythenorth> at what point do you move or destroy the object? o_O
20:43:54  <andythenorth> after all the collisions, or whilst detecting?
20:44:42  <andythenorth> and if the movable objects have a trajectory, how do you calculate it when there are multiple collisions to sum the effect of? o_O
20:44:50  <andythenorth> assuming you don’t have ‘proper’ physics :P
20:45:49  <Wolf01> oh, i don't really need physics
20:46:04  <Wolf01> i just want the objects to stop or destroy on contact
20:46:28  <andythenorth> easy
20:46:40  <andythenorth> you can get a long way without physics anyway :D
20:46:51  <andythenorth> faking works well
20:46:59  * andythenorth wonders if the universe actually fakes it too
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20:47:54  <Wolf01> if you think we might be a shadow of a 4th dimension object, all we can observe is fake
20:48:45  <andythenorth> plato’s cave
20:51:41  <Wolf01> yeah
20:56:35  <andythenorth> hmm
20:56:37  * andythenorth wonders
20:57:06  <andythenorth> is the FIRS Heart of Darkness economy actually just a nasty joke with racist underrtones?
20:57:53  <andythenorth> is it just bad taste?
20:57:57  <Wolf01> is it based on the book?
20:58:24  <andythenorth> kind of yes
20:58:25  <andythenorth><economy.Economy%20object%20at%200x1545250>
20:58:33  <andythenorth> it’s based on the economy of congo
20:59:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that link is not properly encoded
20:59:13  <andythenorth> no
20:59:18  <andythenorth> I should fix that
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21:00:05  <andythenorth> anyway
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21:04:19  <Wolf01> i think it reflects really well the spirit of the game
21:04:35  <andythenorth> colonial exploitation? o_O
21:06:50  <Wolf01> nah, just the interpretation of Mr. Conrad: if you let a man to obtain power, he will use it to become a destroyer trying to become a god
21:08:28  <Wolf01> if you want to become a god of transportation, you'll end up with a massive infrastructure and the map is no more what it was at the start of the game
21:13:13  <andythenorth> good words
21:14:35  <Wolf01> also i bet you don't give a fuck of the poor people you just bulldozed with their houses only to make some space to enlarge the station
21:14:38  <Wolf01> :)
21:16:55  <Wolf01> bah, lego ideas failed all the 2015 projects on the first review round :|
21:17:51  <Wolf01> too much intellectual property
21:20:29  <andythenorth> ha
21:21:11  <Wolf01> lovely
21:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> so, what happened to "intellectual property increases the creativity"ß
21:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> ?
21:22:51  <Eddi|zuHause> because, alledgedly, people get more creative with the prospect of owning property afterwards?
21:24:51  <Wolf01> i think the problem is another, lego awards creativity (or at least it should), but people do what they like more, and they like well done creativity of other people (which owns the property)
21:26:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and that is the ultimate flaw of all the intellectual property legislation. it assumes a world where all creativity is unrelated, but in the real world, all creativity is based on other people's previous creativity. there is never something isolated or completely new.
21:26:45  <Wolf01> correct
21:29:49  <Wolf01> for example, i wanted to submit some creations to ideas, but none of them is really a new thing, all is based on the work of other people, i put my own changes but it's not enough
21:30:50  <Wolf01> also because creations from my own fantasy are a bit awful :P
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23:00:54  <Wolf01> lol, it suits me really well
23:04:56  <Supercheese> Jeez, I can't pick which to vote for this month's screenshot contest, they are all so good
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