Log for #openttd on 14th November 2015:
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00:00:29  <drac_boy> just wondering, any bus fans here?
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00:46:40  <drac_boy> or perhaps at least any train ones :P
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01:52:09  * drac_boy throws some random pixel grfs into here before going off
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02:05:17  <Wolf01> 'night
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07:18:08  <andythenorth> o/
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08:29:26  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
08:29:37  <Alberth> moin andy
08:36:16  * andythenorth throws some FIRS off a cliff
08:36:20  <andythenorth> to make new bits
08:37:44  <Supercheese> synthesis via destruction eh?
08:38:39  <andythenorth> possibly
08:47:48  <andythenorth> hmm
08:57:01  <andythenorth> industry nml props prob_in_game and prob_random
08:57:08  <andythenorth> do the opposite of what I expected
08:59:16  <andythenorth> nvm
09:01:30  <Alberth> you learn new stuff all the time :)
09:03:35  <andythenorth> ambiguously named props
09:03:43  <andythenorth> “this is why we have docs” :P
09:04:27  <andythenorth> I expect prob_random to be industries generated in game, because it uses a random industry construction cb
09:04:30  <andythenorth> nvm
09:05:54  <Alberth> we could add a second name for "prob_random" that better expresses what it does
09:06:17  <andythenorth> prob_map_gen
09:06:24  <andythenorth> I could just fix that in FIRS :P
09:06:52  <Alberth> haha, you copied nml names? :)
09:07:18  <Alberth> own names are always best :p
09:12:41  <Alberth>  :)
09:14:46  <andythenorth> controversially, I kept a 1:1 mapping between the property names in FIRS compile, and the existing nml property that they refer t o :P
09:15:01  <andythenorth> Alberth: push that? o_O
09:15:27  <andythenorth> needs a wiki update too, which I can’t do (can’t login)
09:23:18  <Alberth> using nml names means you get docimented names for free :p
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09:23:48  <Alberth> hi zuu
09:24:00  <Zuu> Hello Alberth
09:24:25  <Zuu> I'm here to admit that I accidently wrote a patch for OpenTTD :-)
09:24:35  <Alberth> oops :)
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09:25:15  <andythenorth> oh noes
09:25:38  <Alberth> planetmaker: how does the added property (see paste) look to you?
09:26:07  <Zuu> When download content window displays a main type of content, it hides all other unless they have been selected for download as dependency.
09:26:28  <Zuu> I though I had a patch for that, but I didn't, so I ended up writing one.
09:26:36  <Alberth> makes sense
09:27:30  <Alberth> ah, too much time travel confuses the mind about past and future :)
09:28:08  <Zuu> Currently it disables that filter when you use text filter. But I might use both filters instead. If not, it would probably need to alter sort order of type sort to show the main type at top.
09:29:35  <Zuu> I saw now when you open the scenario download content window, the whole screen is full of NewGRFs etc. and no scenario is shown unless you scroll past all of them.
09:33:07  <andythenorth> hmm
09:33:48  <andythenorth> FIRS does not need ‘intermediate’ economies
09:33:56  <andythenorth> I reckon
09:34:17  * andythenorth makes another big one
09:34:27  <Alberth> filter on type in the download window would be useful I think
09:34:46  <Alberth> invite others to make such economies?
09:35:35  <Zuu> Hmm, current patch doesn't add onything to the GUI. but maybe it should add a drop down that show eg. 'scenario' and is disabled when you open the window from play scenario?
09:35:43  <andythenorth> I think there’s a standing option to patch their own FIRS :)
09:35:46  <Alberth> although we may end up with loads of firs-like industry grfs :)
09:35:51  <andythenorth> which is what GarryG has done for Australia
09:36:03  <andythenorth> and the other one that I forget the name of
09:36:11  <andythenorth> their are two FIRS forks active atm :)
09:36:20  <andythenorth> SPI
09:36:29  <Alberth> ah yes, the pax thing
09:36:36  <andythenorth> also there / their /s stupid English
09:36:54  <Alberth> never played it, could do that one time
09:37:06  <Alberth> :)
09:37:21  * andythenorth wants to play MP coop game with andythenorth grfs
09:37:28  <Alberth> Zuu: why disable, just select 'scenarios' ?
09:37:44  <andythenorth> but andythenorth grfs are always ‘needs a push build, not on bananas’
09:37:57  <andythenorth> there is a meta problem, I won’t release without testing, and MP testing needs a release :P
09:38:38  <andythenorth> 2016: bananas 2
09:38:51  <Alberth> make an alpha release, test, make a proper release, play in coop?
09:39:35  <Alberth> we need some sort of design first, I think
09:40:22  <Zuu> Alberth: Perhaps. Though I think I will focus on the actual filtering first. Thinking about rewriting it a bit so it will AND the two filters instead of disable the type filter when you use text search. At least for the newbie scenario case, they may still be confused when looking for scenarios and getting lot of hits when typing 'tutorial', but maybe that will make it too easy for them and dumb it down for all others?
09:40:40  <andythenorth> can’t release any FIRS 2 to bananas until April 2016, because of the OpenTTD industry limit :)
09:40:55  <Alberth> you don't think the "space" problem with firs farms exists because he made a scenario or so?  andy?
09:41:20  <andythenorth> I don’t know, I didn’t look further :)
09:41:56  <Alberth>    looks very constructed :)
09:42:07  <andythenorth> ho yes
09:42:52  <Alberth> Zuu: it would probably help if it would be marked as "dependency"  or "used by X" or so
09:43:27  <Alberth> maybe even in a separate list, but that may be a lot of work
09:43:54  <Alberth> not sure why he compresses it that much, at 2048**2, you have enough space
09:43:56  <Zuu> True, but do we have horisontal space for dependency text?
09:44:16  <Alberth> no idea
09:44:29  <andythenorth> maybe he’s trying to get high production
09:45:02  <Alberth> a column with [x]   and a tooltip perhaps?   no idea about feasibility though
09:45:23  <Alberth> definitely for high production, I'd say
09:46:42  <andythenorth> it may even be FIRS 2
09:46:48  <andythenorth> production numbers look high
09:46:55  * andythenorth shrugs
09:47:34  <Zuu> It could be done I guess, but probably would need a reverse of ContentInfo::dependencies array or even just a single bit, as that check would be done for all items in the list. As double-looping the whole list on OnInvalidateData may be a bit too much.
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09:51:23  <Alberth> he's in 1.5.2, not firs2
09:52:12  <Alberth> you need that information anyway to display the dependencies, I think
09:56:53  <Zuu> Actually not. First I did a second loop over all content to see if there are any dependencies. This only need to be performed for content with type different from the main content type. But then I found out it is enough for the filter to just include items of the main type or have been selected (manually or auto) for download.
09:57:54  <Zuu> OpenTTD auto-select dependencies before the filtering is done, so it can just check for items being (auto)selected.
09:58:18  <Alberth> ah, nice
09:58:44  <Alberth> just indicating it's a dependency might be enough then?
09:59:07  <Alberth> which is probably equivalent to "not the main type"
09:59:27  <Zuu> Yep
09:59:30  <Alberth> until you have newgrfs that depend on other newgrfs :p
09:59:35  <Alberth> eg ECS
09:59:52  <Zuu> oh yeah
10:00:18  <Alberth> don't think it's coded in the download though
10:01:00  <Alberth> maybe it needs a higher level description, sort of groups of things together
10:01:27  <Zuu> Problem is that one item can be selected as dependency for many "main content"
10:02:14  <Zuu> It could use a confirm window which list all you selected and after that all you have as dependency. Or make a third filter that does just that. :-)
10:02:35  <Alberth> hmm, maybe highlight deps if you select some content?
10:02:58  <Zuu> Sort order would of course be to alter the type sort to put 'main type' at top regardles of alphabetical sort.
10:03:16  <Alberth> confirm window would work too, package management update does that too
10:03:48  <Zuu> different bg color? Italics or grey text would be my choice elsewhere, but neither of those I think work in OpenTTD.
10:04:30  <Alberth> hmm, what did I do in "hide vehicle" in buy window?
10:05:25  <Alberth> I added "(hidden)" I think, not sure if I did something else too
10:06:40  <Zuu> They do use grey text color. So perhaps my memory was wrong about grey text and OpenTTd.
10:06:52  <Alberth> it's quite new :)
10:07:09  <Zuu> Oh, there we had time travel again :-p
10:08:58  <Zuu> Hmm buy window use white text to show selected. DL content window use grey background.
10:09:55  <Alberth> obviously, or things would be too consistent :p
10:10:02  <Zuu> :-)
10:10:57  <Zuu> Though, grey background to show selection on a grey window would not work so good. And in a table, it makes sense to highlight using background.
10:12:36  * andythenorth needs more types of port industry
10:12:38  <andythenorth> 3 is not enough
10:13:09  <andythenorth> this is a case where the silly industry random cargo cb could be applied :P
10:13:14  <andythenorth> but that breaks all the things
10:13:14  <Alberth> some container transfer thingie?
10:13:19  <andythenorth> intermodal port?
10:13:22  <andythenorth> maybe
10:14:10  <andythenorth> similarly, petro-chemical terminal
10:14:35  <Alberth> ah yes, some long pipe sticking out into the sea :)
10:15:06  <andythenorth> the ships still have to dock at coast though :)
10:15:09  <andythenorth> due to docks
10:15:20  <andythenorth> NewDocks
10:15:30  <Alberth> can't modify docks?
10:15:40  <Alberth> stuck with 2 tiles I guess :(
10:15:57  <andythenorth> I think that’s fixable
10:16:10  <Alberth> or make a 2tile pipe :p
10:16:13  <andythenorth> I just don’t know how, and I’m inclined to finish some things before trying new things
10:16:19  <Zuu> When you open a dl content window from eg. play scenario, it seems that network layer make a limited fetch of content. Still it manages to include dependencies. My point is though, disable "non main type filter" when you search in would include some more content (dependencies to visible content), but not the whole list of content available. Would that be cunfusing, and maybe better to not show dependencies until you select something needing it?
10:16:31  <andythenorth> better docks are one of the few worthwhile ponies imho
10:16:44  <Zuu> Or is it from usability just better to not even hide them, but make them grey and sorted to the bottom?
10:17:09  <Alberth> good approach andy, finishing X before doing Y, I still mostly fail at that
10:18:10  <Zuu> Hmm.. maybe I should start with the sort part and see what we get out of that. Postpone filtering until it is clear it is needed too.
10:19:01  <andythenorth> I have at least 4X
10:19:04  <Alberth> I would only add display of dependent things
10:19:18  <andythenorth> adding Y would be overwhelming :P
10:19:41  <Zuu> No sort fix? I mean open the scenario dl content, and you see not a single scenario. :-)
10:20:53  <Alberth> euhm, yeah, I was just answering your last question, I didn't understand it included sort fixing too :)
10:22:03  <Zuu> The sort fix could generate bug reports though. "why is not alphabetical sort working in my game?" :-)
10:22:04  <Alberth> I thought it was only about displaying more things
10:23:00  <Alberth> I am missing something here probably
10:23:06  <Zuu> Showing of A being a dependency is something I probably will postpone.
10:23:23  <Alberth> separate patch would be useful at least
10:23:44  <Zuu> yep
10:23:48  <planetmaker> Alberth, I like that change to the property name
10:23:51  * andythenorth considers a gypsum cargo
10:23:55  <andythenorth> gypsum -> cement plant
10:23:57  <Alberth> alphabetical sort includes type of content?  ugh
10:24:10  <andythenorth> but then I have to draw a gypsum mine :P
10:24:21  <Zuu> No, but our type sort is alphabetical sort on the localized type name IIRC
10:24:23  <Alberth> planetmaker:  ok, thanks, and good morning :)
10:24:25  <planetmaker> good morning also :)
10:24:55  <Zuu> My change would put the main type on top (or bottom with descending sort) regardless of its localized name.
10:25:09  <Zuu> Hopefully not making too many users think the sort is broken...
10:25:42  <Alberth> filter on type would be less confusing
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10:26:25  <Zuu> As in strict filter, or as in my patch - include dependecies when selected?
10:27:27  <Zuu> And with a bonus question: disable type filter when using text filter?
10:27:40  <Alberth> I often sort on availability (first column) after selecting 'update', to check what will be downloaded
10:27:59  <Alberth> so you could add such meta types, for example
10:28:48  <Alberth> settings window keeps the filter, and adds a warning
10:29:05  <Alberth> in particular when the filter kills all selection
10:29:25  <Zuu> Oh.. I though it disabled the filter. But that explains why no code in the whole OpenTTD yet use the GUIList capability of selecting what filter to be active.
10:30:11  <Alberth> I coded the warning, to avoid bug reports "where is setting X?" :)
10:31:08  <Zuu> Then I follow your example and hide non-main content in the search filter wihch is what I would prefer myself, but though it would go against the settings window.
10:31:54  <Alberth> ha :p
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10:32:19  <Zuu> Looking up your warning now, it is quite clever in telling you exactly if you need to go to advanced or expert to show all. :-)
10:36:12  <Alberth> warning display is a bit easy to miss, hidden quite well in plain sight :)
10:37:30  <Zuu> Oh.. settings_gui.cpp is not using GUIList.
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10:43:29  <LordAro> morning all
10:44:36  <Alberth> hi hi
10:48:15  <Alberth> planetmaker: added the new property to the industries property list, does it need to be added elsewhere?
10:49:08  * andythenorth ponders hydroelectric plant
10:49:28  <andythenorth> deliver building materials to a river site, then it floods a 4x16 section of the map :P
10:49:34  <andythenorth> can’t quite do that in newgrf
10:51:21  <Alberth> make a new disaster :p
10:51:30  <Alberth> cargo-delivery disaster :p
10:51:35  <andythenorth> ha
10:51:44  <andythenorth> or cargo delivery failure disaster
10:51:46  <andythenorth> dam bursts
10:53:59  <Alberth> hmm, scenario to reconnect cities surrounded by water after a flood, where you have to reclaim land but with a high land-build cost?
10:54:26  <planetmaker> hm, I don't think so - except wiki
10:54:35  <planetmaker> but let's look
10:54:37  <Zuu> Hmm, in GUIList you can supply multiple filter functions. When two filters are to be AND togeather, should I just join that to a single filter function, or in my BuildContentList() apply one filter at a time? The later breaks it a bit in that GUIList will keep track if it has been filtered yet or not. So perhaps just make a single filter function that filter both on text and type.
10:55:18  <andythenorth> ‘waterworld’
10:55:19  <andythenorth> :P
10:55:25  <Alberth> planetmaker: list of changes in trunk?
10:55:34  <andythenorth> needs a GS that hands out more land for completing goals
10:56:07  <Zuu> That is what the Split scenario does :-)
10:56:37  <Zuu> Complete the goal on the main island, and it will raise a land bridge to a smaller island where there are some bonus industries.
10:57:01  <andythenorth> ha
10:57:08  <Alberth> I was thinking you have to pay for the land :p
10:57:10  <Zuu> It was made before GS could construct industries. So you better complete the goal fast enough so the bonus industries doesn't close themself.
10:57:44  <planetmaker> Alberth, for nml that usually is compiled for each release based on the commit messages
10:58:06  <Alberth> ok, sounds easy enough
10:59:44  <Alberth> I just duplicated the text of prob_random mostly, with some added before/after version text, is that enough, does it need "depreceated" or so?
11:00:29  <andythenorth> coal mines in tropic? o_O
11:00:33  * andythenorth teddy bear coding here
11:01:32  * Zuu solved his AND filter he thinks
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11:08:23  <Alberth> gold mines is more likely, isn't it?  (or diamond mines)
11:08:32  <andythenorth> got diamonds
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11:11:40  <andythenorth> loads of coal in congo
11:11:43  <andythenorth> just not mined :)
11:11:50  <Eddi|zuHause> "rare earths"
11:11:57  <andythenorth> for your phone
11:12:01  <andythenorth> with child labour
11:12:09  * andythenorth making alternate reality post-colonial thing now
11:14:34  <Flygon> Now I want a 8192*4096 Africa map :U
11:14:47  <Flygon> It'd be neat to start from 1500 or something, assuming appropriate GRFs
11:18:01  <andythenorth> this will be a big economy, that should be fun to play with Busy Bee
11:18:12  <andythenorth> although Busy Bee needs fixing also :)
11:20:06  <Flygon> Shame it's not possible to have a Civ II style OpenTTD map yet
11:20:09  <Flygon> That'd be kickass as hell
11:20:19  <Flygon> But I understand why that isn't a feature yet
11:20:33  <Flygon> What with the pathfinding, and new method of mapping coordinates required
11:22:21  <Alberth> I wondered whether BB should steer towards re-use of existing infra structure
11:22:46  <andythenorth> interesting idea
11:22:56  <andythenorth> I think that would be Efficient Bee
11:23:09  <andythenorth> or Maximum Utilisation of Capital Assets Bee
11:23:17  <andythenorth> or Ant Trails Bee
11:23:25  <Alberth> ha :D
11:23:46  <andythenorth> I like that BB makes a mess of my map ;)
11:25:46  <Alberth> it needs more random :p
11:25:58  <Alberth> or even actively steering away from re-use :p
11:26:09  <Zuu> It would be interesting with the idea where GS can enable/disable range of tiles for a player to build on. Then it could expand this range as your company grows forcing you to incrementally grow your allowed area.
11:27:14  <Alberth> there are lots of uses for "collections of tiles", eg indsutry creation limits
11:27:31  <Alberth> ie coalmines in the north
11:28:39  <Alberth> but specifying such areas is tricky, you probably either need to do it in squirrel, or in a scenario, with the new format(?)
11:29:18  <Alberth> another option is to give full control over payment of transported cargo
11:29:56  <Alberth> ie as policy, you only get paid for transport between X and Y according to this and this formula
11:30:13  <andythenorth> can we track cargo source?
11:30:17  <andythenorth> I thought that was infeasible?
11:30:20  <Alberth> people will stop transporting other stuff very quickly :p
11:30:36  <Alberth> cargo-payment code does it, right?
11:30:49  <andythenorth> I don’t know :D
11:31:04  <Alberth> well, do you get paid for transported cargo?  :D
11:31:34  <Alberth> but you can't do it for the actual transferred goods, in real time
11:31:53  <Alberth> so you must make a payment policy that openttd follows
11:33:03  <Alberth> hmm, it would collide with cargo-dist
11:33:10  <Alberth> not good :(
12:01:12  <Eddi|zuHause> iirc there was a NewGRF callback for cargo payment
12:01:39  <Eddi|zuHause> but GS don't work in callbacks...
12:04:38  <andythenorth> it wouldn’t have to collide with cdist
12:04:47  <andythenorth> just build point-point
12:06:21  <Alberth> newgrf would work too, but then you need a GS -> NewGRF connection
12:19:16  * andythenorth needs to add some kind of farm for grain<economy.Economy%20object%20at%200x29da210>
12:19:23  <andythenorth> bah I should fix those docs :(
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12:33:22  <andythenorth>
12:33:24  <andythenorth> better
12:37:26  <Alberth> grain grows in sub-tropic?
12:37:54  <Alberth> hmm, I guess it does
12:38:30  <Alberth> I am tempted to add rice, but it's the wrong continent :)
12:38:40  <Alberth> perhaps import grain?
12:40:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: add a Economy.__repr__ function?
12:41:05  <Eddi|zuHause> or use str() at the right place?
12:42:16  <andythenorth> I just used the name string instead and do replace(‘ ’, ‘-’).lower()
12:42:23  <andythenorth> .lower is only for appearance, it’s not needed
12:42:31  <andythenorth> even ‘ ‘ gets %20 but that’s ugly :P
12:42:45  <andythenorth> Alberth: there is rice growing in africa it seems :)
12:44:25  <Zuu> Alberth: Oh, you are not in I posted a filter patch there. :-)
12:44:27  <andythenorth> I think I’ll save rice, but it should be included in FIRS
12:45:28  <andythenorth> hmm too many stockyards
12:45:33  <andythenorth> they’re everywhere
12:45:37  <andythenorth> people should eat less meat
12:46:18  <Zuu>
12:47:07  <Zuu> If you are interested to read it.
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13:01:13  <Wolf01> hi
13:01:49  <Alberth> o/
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13:06:31  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r27443 trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp (2015-11-14 14:06:26 +0100 )
13:06:32  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Negoation in comment was wrong.
13:08:47  <Wolf01> "negoation" is wrong too
13:14:08  <Wolf01> pfff each time i open steam it needs to update almost 6 games :|
13:15:42  <Alberth> luckily it only updates 5.9 games then :)
13:15:50  <andythenorth> I can’t use steam
13:15:59  <andythenorth> I’d rather just not buy games than suffer steam
13:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause> you can tell it to only update on start of the game...
13:16:08  <Wolf01> 8 games today
13:16:15  <andythenorth> I don’t want to enter my password just to play a game
13:16:19  <andythenorth> I don’t want forced updates
13:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i hardly have 8 games in total...
13:16:27  <Wolf01> pfff and when i want to play a game i need to wait for it to update?
13:17:04  <Eddi|zuHause> or you could have just steam always running, and never notice the updates until they are already done :p
13:17:22  <Wolf01> i only have 322 (200 installed) and about 120 from bundles to redeem
13:18:20  <Wolf01> also let's play a game, help me to not buy fallout 4 before xmas, __ln__ could play on enemy side if he wants
13:18:36  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i actually have 11 games, 2 of which were free and i never even installed/started
13:19:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no interest in fallout...
13:19:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i actually got 3 games for free, but one of them i really played :p
13:19:39  <Wolf01> neither do one of my personalities, but the other 2 want it, so i need support
13:20:02  <Eddi|zuHause> 2 vs. 1 is unfair.
13:20:30  <Wolf01> eh, i might need to develop another one personality, but 3 is the perfect number
13:21:24  <Alberth> 1, 2, 3  who needs any other number :)
13:21:39  <Wolf01> one of them is "buy it yesterday!", one "wait at least until xmas" and the last one "no, don't buy it, you'll en up playing it for a ween non stop"
13:21:53  <Wolf01> *end up
13:22:01  <Wolf01> *week
13:22:19  <Wolf01> they are again taking control of my hands at the same time
13:22:21  <Eddi|zuHause> just one week?
13:22:27  <Wolf01> 24/7
13:22:32  <Eddi|zuHause> just one week?
13:22:40  <Alberth> :)
13:22:50  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 24*7
13:22:50  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 168
13:23:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a really healthy 1300 hours on Europa Universalis IV
13:23:27  <Wolf01> no, i still play skyrim, fallut 3/new vegas, i have about 400 hours build up for each of them
13:23:28  <Alberth> food + coffee at least an hour / day
13:24:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and i never actually played through a full game
13:24:55  <Wolf01> eh, i'll try to finish at least the main story line for every game
13:26:00  <Wolf01> i played starcraft LotV for the last 4 days and finished the campaign in 2 days
13:27:27  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there technically isn't a story in Europa Universalis IV. nor is there really a victory condition. but the game goes from 1444 to 1821 or something
13:28:02  <Eddi|zuHause> latest i got so far was 1720-ish
13:28:50  <Eddi|zuHause> then it kinda got out of hand as i was winning wars faster than i could integrate territory...
13:29:24  <Zuu> Wolf01: Sorry to confuse you
13:31:23  <Wolf01> np, just pointed out the evidence, one of my personalities is grammar nazi capt. obvious
13:36:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to put something intentionally misspelled here, but my brain just refuses...
13:36:58  <Eddi|zuHause> take this instead ;)
13:38:23  <Wolf01> ahah
13:38:53  <frosch123> did you watch that for 6 hours?
13:39:28  <Eddi|zuHause> not really...
13:39:38  <Eddi|zuHause> at least, not in one piece
13:40:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you can watch the individual episodes as well ;)
13:40:58  <Wolf01> i think i've seen 2 or 3 episodes, but that 6 hours straight is really too much :P
13:41:45  <Wolf01> also, anime time, i need to see the last 7 episodes
13:42:30  <Wolf01> uhm, no only 5
13:45:03  <argoneus> does anyone here want to help me with a group project at uni
13:45:11  <argoneus> ;_;
13:46:04  <Zuu> Wolf01: I was unsure about the spelling so I only googled it to see that it was not misspelled, but forgot to check I got the right word. :-)
13:46:23  <Wolf01> i googled it too XD
13:46:29  <Alberth> you're looking for a group project?
13:46:46  <argoneus> Alberth: no I already have one
13:46:52  <argoneus> but my teammates are giving me a headache
13:47:08  <Alberth> and you think we are any better :p
13:47:09  <Wolf01> on first sight i was "oh a new english word i didn't know"
13:47:15  <argoneus> Alberth: im pretty sure
13:47:22  <argoneus> one of them got a git merge conflict
13:47:28  <argoneus> and he decided to discard all my code
13:47:29  <Alberth> \o/
13:47:36  <argoneus> and rebased the repo
13:47:47  <argoneus> and just now
13:47:49  <argoneus> another guy pushed this code
13:47:53  <argoneus> self.max_thread_count = multiprocessing.cpu_count()
13:48:02  <argoneus> help
13:48:37  <Alberth> you're not making much sense to me, sorry
13:48:55  <argoneus> they think you can only have as many threads as you have cpus
13:49:00  <argoneus> or cpu cores, or logical cpus, w/e
13:49:03  <argoneus> ;_;
13:49:18  <Alberth> if it's a cpu bound problem, it makes sense
13:49:35  <frosch123> i need a mirror for the graphviz docs
13:49:47  <frosch123> somehow the server is down every second day
13:49:58  <frosch123> hmm, oh, let's use the manpages
13:50:36  <Alberth> :)
13:51:27  <Alberth> my package manager doesn't have graphviz-docs, maybe you have such a package?
13:51:38  *** and [] has joined #openttd
13:51:41  <frosch123> "man dot" works for me
13:52:32  *** and [] has quit []
13:52:45  <andythenorth> argoneus: who’s project lead? :P
13:52:52  <andythenorth> and then you have politics also :P
13:53:02  <argoneus> frosch123: you can use the magic of internet
13:53:06  <argoneus>
13:53:31  <argoneus> andythenorth: we are 6, the project lead is another dude, not me
13:53:40  <argoneus> hes actually decent but hes a huge idea guy
13:53:46  <andythenorth> are you using feature branches?
13:53:54  <argoneus> we agreed to use them
13:53:57  <argoneus> but no one bothers
13:54:04  <andythenorth> discarding code for a merge conflict is daft
13:54:21  <andythenorth> otoh, you all have to learn this the hard way
13:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> make a merge war?
13:54:38  <argoneus> there was no war
13:54:41  <argoneus> he just rebased the repo
13:54:43  <andythenorth> it has taken me 20 years to be approximately competent
13:54:47  <argoneus> it's like my code never existed
13:54:49  <argoneus> it was really awkward
13:54:53  <Eddi|zuHause> so? you just push again :p
13:54:54  <argoneus> copypasting it from the commit
13:55:00  <argoneus> I pulled first
13:55:05  <andythenorth> so you had commits?
13:55:10  <argoneus> on the website yes
13:55:10  <andythenorth> so go back to that rev
13:55:18  <argoneus> but in the repo itself the commit seemed to be gone
13:55:22  <argoneus> not sure how that works
13:55:25  <argoneus> gitlab showed them properly
13:55:33  <argoneus> but there was no commit deleting my code
13:55:38  <argoneus> it just disappeared into the abyss somehow
13:55:51  <andythenorth> only if he’s rewritten history afaik
13:55:58  <andythenorth> which is daft, dangerous, hostile and stupid
13:56:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it just means it's somewhere, but not a parent of the current commit
13:56:02  <andythenorth> and rarely works
13:56:21  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like an unnamed branch
13:56:23  <argoneus> I just copypasted the files from the web commit
13:56:31  <andythenorth> ?
13:56:34  <argoneus> im not a git wizard myself, would probably break things
13:56:40  <argoneus> at least I know not to rewrite history
13:56:45  <andythenorth> how can you see web commits, but not local?
13:56:56  <argoneus> i have no idea
13:56:59  <argoneus> gitlab showed them linearly
13:57:05  <argoneus> but in my repo I couldn't find my commit
13:57:14  <Eddi|zuHause> use the hash, luke.
13:57:34  <argoneus> it wasn't that much of a problem
13:57:37  <argoneus> I commit every like 20 lines
13:57:41  <argoneus> but it was annoying
13:57:56  <Eddi|zuHause> so, why are you talking to us, instead of to him?
13:57:58  <Alberth> git is quite dangerous
13:58:03  <andythenorth> nah
13:58:06  <argoneus> sorry then
13:58:17  <andythenorth> some people using git are quite dangerous
13:58:17  <andythenorth> :)
13:58:45  <Alberth> git is fine, just don't go near it :p
14:00:00  <Alberth> but yeah, argoneus, as Eddi said, you can talk to us, but it doesn't actually solve much
14:00:39  <Alberth> except telling other about your woes may make you feel better :)
14:02:07  <andythenorth> I could send him peopleware
14:02:26  <andythenorth>
14:02:34  <andythenorth> most software project problems are people problems
14:03:25  <Eddi|zuHause> most people problems are not solved by throwing more software at it
14:03:40  <frosch123> andythenorth: what next?
14:03:46  <frosch123> <- commit?
14:03:54  <frosch123> does it work for you?
14:04:18  <frosch123> i just fixed some links and hoover tooltips
14:04:29  <frosch123> don't know more bugs :)
14:06:33  <andythenorth> frosch123: just push it, I’ll pull :)
14:06:46  <frosch123> let's break devzone :)
14:06:53  <andythenorth> yair!
14:06:57  <andythenorth> why not!
14:09:40  <frosch123> let's see :)
14:10:19  *** sla_ro|master [] has quit []
14:13:44  <frosch123> <- he, seems to work out of the box :)
14:14:22  <Wolf01> nice
14:16:28  <andythenorth> he
14:16:40  <andythenorth> I’ll tweak colours and find a way to add ‘click for larger’ or such
14:16:49  <andythenorth> biab
14:17:51  <Eearslya> Understanding the OTTD codebase has been..quite a challenge so far; especially with no experience with vectors..
14:19:39  <Alberth> just a glorified array :)
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14:21:08  <Eearslya> Yeah, a lot of C++ things are tripping me up here and there; I've had plenty of experience with plain C, but C++ has so many new features..
14:21:40  <Wolf01> i instead don't understand sprite batches and graphics devices very well
14:21:55  <Alberth> wait until you see a proper c++11 program :p
14:22:26  <Eearslya> Struct inheritance and initialization had me googling for an hour at least
14:23:04  <Alberth> it may be faster to read a c++ book :)
14:23:28  <Eddi|zuHause> well, struct and class is really the same thing
14:23:56  <Eddi|zuHause> the only difference is public/private if neither is specified
14:24:59  <Wolf01> struct need to be fully initialized via constructor or default values, iirc
14:25:17  <Eearslya> See, I am tempted to read a C++ tutorial or something of the like, but..I'm mainly worried it's going to be 75% things I already know XD
14:25:33  <argoneus> Eearslya: learn java or C# or another language that doesn't butcher OO
14:25:34  <Eearslya> Unless you know of a book for C++ that's specifically targeted to those already proficient in C..
14:25:36  <argoneus> OOP*
14:25:55  <argoneus> it will help you understand things with an easier syntax
14:25:56  <Eearslya> I'm decent with Java, I did liken the inheritence to Java's 'extend' pretty quickly
14:26:10  <argoneus> C++ has some magic stuff like multiple inheritance
14:26:13  <argoneus> which may or may not be useful
14:26:24  <argoneus> depends who you ask
14:26:32  <argoneus> also templates are the best and worst feature of C++
14:26:34  <Eearslya> Unlike Java, which has one inheritance and multiple..implements. Whatever you'd call those.
14:28:14  <argoneus> I can't remember the last time I needed more than one inheritance
14:29:22  <Eearslya> Are 'virtual' functions essentially the same as 'abstract'?
14:29:45  <argoneus> not really
14:29:46  <Alberth> no, "virtual" is what java does by default
14:29:56  <argoneus> virtual means you may override the function iirc
14:30:02  <argoneus> abstract means you have to override it
14:30:04  <Alberth> ie you can re-implement the method in a derived class
14:30:38  <argoneus> which reminds me how horrible C++ is
14:30:49  <argoneus> you want an abstract class?
14:30:49  <Alberth> abstract is  class X { void f() = 0 ; };    <-- the "=0" means the function exists, but not in this class
14:30:56  <argoneus> ^
14:31:34  <argoneus> Alberth: add a virtual there
14:31:38  <argoneus> virtual void f() = 0
14:31:45  <argoneus> else... not sure what happens actually
14:31:45  <Alberth> which like java also means you cannot instantiate X
14:31:54  <argoneus> I think that won't even compile
14:32:00  <Alberth> hmm, good point
14:32:15  <Alberth> I think it would compile just be very non-usable :p
14:32:17  <Eearslya> Oh boy. Maybe I really should try and find some reading material..
14:32:25  <argoneus> you should learn a good language
14:32:35  <argoneus> that isn't plagued by 30 year old philosophies and deprecated standard libraries
14:32:38  <Eearslya> C and Java don't count?
14:32:52  <argoneus> C won't help you understand object oriented things
14:32:54  <Alberth> argoneus:  please, you made that point a few times now, stop it now
14:32:54  <argoneus> which you seem to struggle with
14:33:30  <Eearslya> Well, no, I'm fine with OOP; I was just confused with C++'s syntax of inheritance
14:33:34  <Alberth> argoneus: read c++11 or c++14
14:33:36  <argoneus> Alberth: I just don't get the idea of schools and stuff forcing C++ onto students
14:33:51  <argoneus> when it's a huge mess
14:34:00  <argoneus> e.g. in school we were taught about pointers in C++
14:34:07  <argoneus> thing is, once you go into C++11, suddenly raw pointers are evil
14:34:11  <argoneus> unless they are non-owning
14:34:22  <argoneus> it's just
14:34:22  <argoneus> blah
14:34:28  <Alberth> most schools have no clue about languages
14:34:37  <Alberth> but that doesn't mean the language itself is bad
14:34:38  <argoneus> better learn a modern language imo
14:34:42  <argoneus> the language isn't bad
14:34:46  <argoneus> but it lets you do a LOT of bad things
14:34:49  <argoneus> without warning you
14:34:51  <Alberth> it just means schools need to fix their knowledge
14:35:03  <Alberth> like git, and anything else powerful
14:35:20  <argoneus> thing is
14:35:26  <argoneus> with C++ there's like 5 different ways to do everything
14:35:29  <argoneus> and 4 of them are frowned upon
14:35:32  <Eearslya> I don't think C++ is going anywhere for a long time
14:35:51  <argoneus> C++ is a good language that can do most everything you want
14:35:54  <argoneus> that's also the problem with it :D
14:36:11  <Alberth> argoneus: wrong, the philosophy is not to force people into a choice, and different options are good for different use cases
14:36:13  <Wolf01> i never understood pointers vs dots
14:36:21  <argoneus> dots?
14:36:29  <argoneus> you mean a->val vs a.val?
14:36:33  <Wolf01> yes
14:36:42  <argoneus> well
14:36:46  <argoneus> one of them is *val and the other is val
14:36:52  <argoneus> er
14:36:54  <Wolf01> the compiler is smart enough to know when you need a reference or a value, why do you let it to the developer?
14:36:54  <argoneus> *a and the other is a
14:36:55  <argoneus> sorry
14:37:10  <Alberth> Wolf01:  I agree, it seems a weird thing not to handle automatically
14:37:37  <argoneus> from what I've seen on ##c++
14:37:43  <Alberth> although with operator overloading, it may get messy
14:37:45  <Wolf01> ok, other languages have it too, but is used at function argument level
14:37:48  <argoneus> the latest philosophy seems to do "try to avoid pointers, the stack is large enough"
14:37:49  <Alberth> eg iterators
14:38:27  <argoneus> ugh
14:38:28  <argoneus> iterators
14:38:34  <Eearslya> How on earth are you expected to avoid pointers entirely?
14:39:02  <argoneus> for (std::vector<MyClass>::const_iterator it = myvec.begin(); it != myvec.end(); it++) { }
14:39:11  <argoneus> THANKS BJARNE
14:39:20  <Alberth> for (auto v : myvec)
14:39:24  <argoneus> yeah
14:39:29  <argoneus> luckily
14:39:33  <Alberth> ^ that's c++11
14:39:35  <argoneus> that's c++11 though
14:40:17  <Alberth> so please don't throw in obsolete constructs as argument against the language
14:40:44  <argoneus> iirc there've been arguments against "auto" as wel
14:40:44  <argoneus> l
14:40:52  <argoneus> when it first came out
14:41:07  <argoneus> that it's hard to tell what it really is
14:41:16  <argoneus> there's also the auto& and auto&& magic and that kind of stuff
14:41:25  <Alberth> nothing that stops you from not using it
14:43:26  <argoneus> as I said
14:43:30  <argoneus> the language is not bad
14:43:38  <argoneus> but there's way too many options for a new programmer imo
14:43:53  <argoneus> I see hacky workarounds at uni all the time
14:43:59  <argoneus> things that just should not work but they do
14:44:05  <argoneus> because they forced c++ to make it work
14:44:09  <Alberth> yep, you don't want to use it as first language
14:44:35  <argoneus> I never meant to discourage Eearslya from learning C++
14:44:39  <Eearslya> My first language was..Perl.
14:44:41  <argoneus> I just wanted him to get a good base in a "modern" language
14:44:42  <argoneus> OUCH
14:45:09  <argoneus> Eearslya: remember how I said that C++ lets you do nasty things?
14:45:16  <argoneus> well, in perl you can do nasty things, with even nastier syntax! :D
14:45:34  <Alberth> like he doesn't know :p
14:45:38  <Eearslya> I have done C++ before, but..Usually when I've done C++ it's been extremely basic, I've never gotten into vectors, inheritances, or anything like that
14:45:39  <Eddi|zuHause> in perl, you can't do non-nasty things :p
14:46:14  <Eearslya> It also doesn't help, trying to understand OTTD that I'm swimming around in a codebase and I don't know where anything is XD
14:46:47  <Alberth> ag or grep is your friend :)
14:46:50  <argoneus> I just think every programmer should start with C
14:46:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd argue that noone in here actually knows where EVERYTHING is
14:46:59  <argoneus> and then proceed with something like C# or Java or whatever
14:47:03  <argoneus> before getting into C++
14:47:11  <argoneus> to get a solid base
14:47:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i think no programmer should start with C
14:47:34  <andythenorth> frosch123: eh how about doing something on Busy Bee next? o_O
14:47:41  <andythenorth> it is a playground for GS ideas
14:47:46  <argoneus> C teaches you to realize "oh I can't just flail memory around"
14:47:51  <Alberth> Eddi: ha, I don't even know what everything contains exactly :p
14:48:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: what to visualise in busybee using graphviz? :p
14:48:06  <argoneus> because then you open java code
14:48:10  <argoneus> and see new() everywhere on everything
14:48:12  <Alberth> argoneus: euhm, something about pointers being complicated.....?
14:48:14  <andythenorth> frosch123: goals :P
14:48:21  <Eearslya> C is..segfault city, in my experience.
14:48:32  <frosch123> hmm, i don't think i played a single game with busybee
14:48:35  <argoneus> shouldn't every good programmer know how pointers work?
14:48:37  <frosch123> so, i have no idea about it :p
14:48:43  <andythenorth> busybee has a bug currently :P
14:48:44  <argoneus> like every high level language uses pointers transparently
14:48:46  <andythenorth> which gets annoying fast
14:49:00  <Alberth> it's more a lack in features :p
14:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no programmer, good or otherwise, needs to know what pointers are
14:49:12  <argoneus> in java you pass by reference, shouldn't a java programmer know what a reference is?
14:49:14  <andythenorth>
14:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no.
14:49:32  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: especially not a beginner coder
14:49:58  <Alberth> well, in  java, he should, as primitive types and non-primitive types are different
14:50:25  <andythenorth> hmm, I need graphviz locally now
14:50:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that is one of the weirdest things in java, yes.
14:50:50  <argoneus> what do you classify as a beginner coder?
14:50:53  <Eddi|zuHause> but definitely pretty low on the C-scale of weird language constructs
14:50:57  <argoneus> not understanding loops for example?
14:51:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: i remember my suggestion back then: plan goals ahead and only announce them if they have not been completed after 6 monhts
14:51:14  <argoneus> I've been programming for like 4 years and I still feel like a beginner
14:51:22  <andythenorth> that has quite some latency :)
14:51:38  <andythenorth> it means min. 6 month wait for a new goal after winning one, no?
14:52:15  <andythenorth> ach bollocks
14:52:22  <andythenorth> I didn’t upgrade macports when I last upgraded OS X
14:52:24  <andythenorth> meh
14:52:27  <frosch123> you can keep a stockpile ahead
14:52:40  <andythenorth> now my afternoon will be spent getting graphviz :D
14:53:06  <frosch123> download the source and build yourself? :p
14:53:18  <andythenorth> I should fix macports anyway
14:54:07  <andythenorth> I hate that I have to get macports from sourceforge, and then use sudo with it
14:54:08  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: a beginner, in this context, would be someone who does not know the effects that a change will have ahead of time, a trial-and-error type approach.
14:54:31  <andythenorth> what could be more evil than giving a sudo password to a binary from sourceforge?
14:54:44  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: doesn't fixing a segfault teach you a lot though?
14:54:50  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: and C is one of the worst places you would do trial-and-error programming
14:55:05  <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no, because "Segfault" is not telling you what's wrong.
14:55:19  <argoneus> fair point
14:55:23  <argoneus> C errors are........not very good
14:55:59  <frosch123> <- andythenorth: are those useful?
14:56:02  <Alberth> nah, assembly language without knowing what you're doing is worse :p
14:56:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: nah, they’re old :)
14:59:21  * andythenorth watches macports
14:59:53  <Eearslya> I've been wanting to try and contribute to OTTD which is why I'm trying to familiarize with the codebase..I think I found a good 'things in C++ not in C' page to read, too
15:01:04  <Zuu> I think it shouldn't be so hard to find a C++ book for C programmers. Both languages are fairly common still today and have a long history. And sure there should be web pages on the subject too as you found out.
15:01:43  <Eearslya> Currently reading this:
15:02:47  <argoneus> this reminds me
15:02:50  <argoneus> does ottd even use C++11?
15:03:19  <Zuu> OpenTTD does compile in Visual Studio 2008, so no features not in that compiler are used.
15:03:30  * andythenorth has wondered for a long time about function overloading
15:03:34  <andythenorth> and why that would be sane
15:03:35  <frosch123> we fixed the stuff that failed in c++11
15:04:33  <Eddi|zuHause> function overloading makes sense in polymorphic contexts, or templates.
15:05:02  <Zuu> Or for typed variable parameter count.
15:05:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: think of it as a ways to imitate duck typing :p
15:05:23  <andythenorth> ok
15:05:26  <andythenorth> that works
15:06:03  <frosch123> just that it only works for known types of ducks :p
15:07:36  <andythenorth> hmm
15:07:45  <andythenorth> subversion port takes a while to arrive :P
15:09:24  <Zuu> And svn is picky about using -R instead of -r for recursive. :-)
15:11:43  <andythenorth> meh ports also locks, can only run one install at once
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15:30:53  <andythenorth> ach, can’t get openttd to find lzma
15:30:59  <andythenorth> or I don’t have a valid lzma port
15:32:24  <andythenorth> it also can’t find zlib or libiculx
15:32:30  <andythenorth> which I have just installed :P
15:41:41  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
15:41:43  <drac_boy> hi
15:43:45  <andythenorth> ha ha I’ve broken everything
15:43:57  * drac_boy hands andy a lot of gremlins? :P
15:44:05  <andythenorth> can’t build newgrfs, openttd, nor any work stuff
15:44:11  <andythenorth> python and everything else is now broken
15:45:13  <drac_boy> I see
15:45:19  <drac_boy> any good news otherwise?
15:48:08  <Alberth> it's saturday?
15:48:24  <drac_boy> heh I dunno if thats good news to andy :)
15:49:13  <andythenorth> hmm openttd compiles again now
15:49:38  <andythenorth> I gave up trying to install ‘only needed ports’ and just restored the old ones
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15:57:18  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r27444 trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp (2015-11-14 16:57:15 +0100 )
15:57:19  <DorpsGek> -Add: When viewing online content of a particular type, hide content of other types unless they have been (auto)selected for download.
16:01:25  <andythenorth> :)
16:08:13  <drac_boy> anyway I think I'm going off for a bit for no
16:08:16  <drac_boy> now*
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16:12:12  <Eddi|zuHause> ... silicoid farmers, i think i play this game wrong :p
16:16:38  <Eearslya> Can I get voiced in
16:18:09  <frosch123> Eearslya: but you can also just talk here
16:18:19  <frosch123> .dev is only needed when eddi is spamming this channel
16:19:08  <frosch123> there is noone in .dev who isn't here as well
16:23:20  <Eearslya> True. Well, I was looking at trying to fix my first bug (6389) and I'm slightly confused; there's a buffer for the name, 32 characters wide, but the name in the bug report gets cut off at 29; So, minus one for the null terminator, are there 2 bytes of control characters or something of the like?
16:34:05  <andythenorth> grr
16:34:41  <V453000> Yo
16:34:44  <andythenorth> most things now have the ports they need, except buildout.python will no longer build, and that’s the only sane way to get python on a mac :(
16:34:56  <andythenorth> also newgrf makefiles are sulking
16:36:27  <frosch123> Eearslya: no idea, maybe some utf8 magic?
16:36:37  <frosch123> i.e. do some letter take more than a byte?
16:36:52  <Eearslya> Is there any reason we can't just bump that to, say, 48? Wouldn't break any compatibility?
16:36:52  <frosch123> anyway, mind that the server uses the same structure
16:37:03  <Eearslya> Would that*
16:37:05  <frosch123> so, changing it in the client won't make it work :p
16:37:21  <andythenorth>
16:37:26  <andythenorth> and more of those
16:38:16  <andythenorth> ach no mercurial installed
16:38:18  <andythenorth> that might solve that
16:38:31  <Eearslya> ..Is the server actually built seperately? I'm looking at network/core/tcp_content.h..Is that not shared?
16:40:35  <frosch123> ottd uses the same packet type for both udp and tcp packages
16:40:42  <frosch123> udp packages are severely limited in size
16:40:50  <frosch123> unfortunaltely ottd caries that over to tcp
16:41:05  <frosch123> i started a patch to separate that, but didn't finish it :p
16:41:39  <frosch123> Eearslya: the server is at svn://
16:41:50  <Eearslya> So this is more of a 'feature-not-bug' issue?
16:41:55  <frosch123> the stuff in the "core" directory is shared via svn:external
16:42:18  <frosch123> Eearslya: it's a limitation of the current implementation :)
16:43:19  <frosch123> you can try to explore where the other 3 character are though
16:43:20  <Eearslya> Welp, guess I should find another bug then!
16:43:31  <frosch123> i don't know where the other 3 bytes are used
16:43:49  <Eearslya> Well, assuming it's null-terminated (which it might not be, since it's explicity 32 bytes), there's 2 I have to look for
16:44:21  <Eearslya> I should switch to my PC, bug-searching is horrible without an IDE to jump to declarations and such.
16:44:53  <frosch123> but if the server already truncates it, you will have a hard time to debug that :p
16:45:10  <Eearslya> Here's hoping it doesn't. XD
16:45:52  <Zuu> You could still try to find out why the sever truncates it?
16:45:59  <Zuu> (if it dose)
16:46:04  <Zuu> does*
16:47:25  <Eearslya> Well, first thing I'm gonna try is printing out the string byte-by-byte on client side, see if anything is off
16:48:14  <Eearslya> If the client-side string is -actually- truncated at 29 bytes, well..Then I'll have to dig into the server code.
16:48:19  <Zuu> The unique_id of that content is 3841 btw
16:49:00  <Zuu> So all you need is a conditional breakpoint in network_content.cpp on line 65-ish to figure out what is received from the server. :-)
16:50:00  <Zuu> But maybe I shouldn't spoil your debugging because I started on the same bug before reading that you did as well. :-)
16:50:08  <Eearslya> Can MSVC do breakpoints? I've never really used it.. XD
16:50:32  <Zuu> MSVC can do that. I use 2008 edition for OpenTTD. 2015 got even more features and a black theme.
16:51:07  <Eearslya> Love dark themes.
16:51:17  <Zuu> You just click in the left margin in the code editor to create a breakpoint. Then right click to set a condition.
16:52:28  <Zuu> Mind that on some IDEs breakpoints with condition are sloooow, so altering the code to have a compiled if-statement with some dummy code to break at may greatly improve the performance. Not sure how good/bad visual studio is on this matter. Probably not as bad as others. :-)
16:52:54  <Eearslya> Welp, we're about to find out!
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16:55:00  <Eearslya> ..Well, that was a pretty easy open-and-shut case.
16:55:23  <Eearslya> They've got some strange UTF-8 apostrophe in the name
16:55:56  <Eearslya> That would account for 2 more bytes than it should
16:58:29  <Zuu> The bananas web interface have maxlength="32" on the name <input>. While I haven't checked the django backend validator, it likely count that UTF-8 character as a single character.
17:00:00  <Eearslya> Which, of course, explains the discrepancy
17:00:14  <Eearslya> Welp, still need to find another bug, then!
17:00:16  <Zuu> Eearslya: If you like to continue your bug hunt experience, please post your findings to the issue on flyspray.
17:02:21  *** sla_ro|master [] has joined #openttd
17:02:37  <Eearslya> Odd, Flyspray doesn't like my login. Is there a delay between registering and the usernames synchronizing across the services?
17:03:04  <frosch123> no, but you need the confirmation mail
17:03:14  <Eearslya> I did that
17:03:29  <frosch123> also, where did you register? :p
17:03:36  <frosch123> for example forums are separate
17:03:38  <Eearslya>, about 5 minutes ago
17:03:47  <frosch123> that one should be fine
17:04:00  <Eearslya> Flyspray disagrees
17:04:20  <Zuu> Eearslya: Can you log in to other services? Eg. banans, wiki etc?
17:04:33  <andythenorth> ha ha, graphviz works now
17:04:48  <Zuu> bananas*
17:04:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: i hope the rest did not stop due to that :)
17:05:28  <Eearslya> Yep; bananas and wiki work fine
17:05:47  <andythenorth> frosch123: well, I needed to update all of macports :P
17:06:12  <frosch123> so you will only notice during the next week, that half of everything broke :)
17:06:37  <Eearslya> I wonder if my password has characters Flyspray doesn't like; I just threw in a password from Keepass
17:08:20  <Eearslya> ..Nope, didn't fix it. Odd.
17:13:00  <andythenorth> ho my FIRS repo is broken after installing mercurial
17:13:19  <andythenorth> it reports changed files on some paths, but refuses to recognise those paths for commits
17:15:04  <Eearslya> ..Ah. That would explain it. FlySpray has a password length max of 30.
17:18:42  <andythenorth> well
17:18:51  <andythenorth> rm -r * and then revert :P
17:18:56  <andythenorth> repo fixed
17:19:25  <Eearslya> There, finally made my comment XP
17:20:06  <Zuu> Great
17:20:55  * Zuu tries to understand #6378.
17:22:04  <Eearslya> That is..a lot of math.
17:22:59  <Zuu> The code blocks (as in Markdown code blocks) are not really math. But it is a lot of text and reasoning in that issue.
17:23:30  <Eearslya> They did attach their own patch for the issue apparently
17:25:19  <andythenorth> frosch123: so the cargoflow graph colours are hard-coded in the template? :)
17:25:36  <frosch123> yes, i derive them from the life_type
17:25:48  <frosch123> also supply cargo ids are specified at the top
17:26:51  <andythenorth> I am going to try and use css-for-svg
17:26:56  <andythenorth> I want to learn it, for other reasons
17:27:17  * andythenorth wonders if raphael has a linkgraph layout algorithm :P
17:28:08  *** Bluelight [~chatzilla@] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 42.0/20151029151421]]
17:28:12  <Zuu> I made a web game where I used svg and angular directives to render the game screen. Didn't use of css for svg there though. As the whole svg was inline in the html template and parameterized by angular.
17:29:58  <Zuu>
17:31:10  <Eearslya> Man, there's really not a lot of bugs to take on practically..
17:31:27  <andythenorth> no :)
17:31:55  <andythenorth> the game is relatively stable, last time I looked in flyspray, it’s edge cases and hard-to-repro stuff, or platform-specific :)
17:32:27  <Eearslya> Curse the stability!
17:32:34  <Wolf01> <Eearslya> ..Ah. That would explain it. FlySpray has a password length max of 30. <- i had that problem on a site, i used a ~60 characters long password and i wasn't able to login anymore, a password reset fixed it :D
17:32:35  <andythenorth> I rarely experience crashes or noticeable bugs in the game, despite changing newgrfs under it constantly
17:33:15  <Eearslya> Wolf01: Yeah, I reset mine to one at 30 characters, works fine now
17:35:43  <Wolf01> andythenorth, you can look at plantuml, it draws in svg too
17:35:55  * andythenorth looks
17:36:23  <Zuu> Eearslya: Have you seen the Todo list on the wiki?
17:39:29  <andythenorth> you could go all out and try to patch a pony feature :P
17:40:14  <Zuu> Do you have any easy pony requests. Eg that doesn't involve GS -> NewGRF? ;-)
17:40:18  <Wolf01> like daylength or map rotation
17:45:17  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27445 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-11-14 18:45:11 +0100 )
17:45:18  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19  <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
17:55:33  <andythenorth> ha ha
17:55:45  <andythenorth> ok so graphviz offers limited control over css styling
17:55:48  <andythenorth> but I shall defeat it
18:05:40  <andythenorth> frosch123: does .dot ever get rendered to anything but svg?  Should I preserve the inline styling?
18:06:07  <frosch123> you can also render it to .png, if you want
18:06:16  <frosch123> but then it won't have links
18:06:27  <frosch123> though, actuall,y you can also generate an imagemap in addition to it
18:06:58  <frosch123> anyway, i think svg is better than png :)
18:07:13  <frosch123> don't bother with other formats
18:07:40  <andythenorth> I can remove the fillcolor switch then
18:08:17  <frosch123> can you select different css formats depending on life-type ?
18:08:36  <andythenorth> yeah
18:08:48  <andythenorth> I am doing it in a brute force way, but es
18:08:49  <frosch123> interesting :)
18:08:51  <andythenorth> yes *
18:09:22  <frosch123> haha, are you adding a post-processing step after the svg generation? :p
18:09:59  <andythenorth> not that brute force :o
18:10:05  <andythenorth> although it would work
18:10:12  <frosch123> ok, would likely be horrible :)
18:10:42  <andythenorth> pushed, it’s WIP
18:12:48  <frosch123> he, you are generating a css :p
18:13:23  <Alberth> andy generates everything, he'd generate the generator too if it was possible :)
18:14:31  <frosch123> oh, you made the organic ones red?
18:14:42  <frosch123> or only for testing?
18:15:09  <andythenorth> only testing
18:15:30  <andythenorth> Alberth: I am one step behind eddi, who does generate the templates iirc :P
18:15:53  <andythenorth> ok I can control text and shape colours, I am happy :)
18:16:05  <andythenorth> now I was going to pick colours from openttd palette for them :)
18:16:17  *** Defaultti [] has quit [Quit: Quitting.]
18:16:27  * andythenorth considers using map colour of industry, probably very very bad idea
18:16:30  <frosch123> does ottd have such light colours?
18:17:03  <frosch123> well, what information shall it represent?
18:17:24  <andythenorth> is a good question
18:17:45  <andythenorth> map colour will just be visual noise, no?
18:17:52  <frosch123> likely :)
18:17:54  <andythenorth> colour vomit, is what lego people call it
18:18:06  <frosch123> and half of it will have terrible font/bgcolor contrast
18:18:29  <andythenorth> font I can fix :)
18:18:32  <andythenorth> but yeah
18:18:37  <frosch123> currently it tells you to start with green or blue industries
18:18:45  <frosch123> and to somehow get violet cargos
18:19:12  <andythenorth> black for black holes? o_O
18:19:39  <frosch123> if anyone understands what black hole are :p
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18:19:49  <andythenorth> also agreed
18:19:56  <frosch123> i like the terms "primary industry", "secondary industry", "other"
18:20:04  <Alberth> things that suck up entire openttd?
18:20:55  <Alberth> but likely the player only cares about cargo he does need to transport rather than cargo he doesn't get :)
18:25:14  <andythenorth> bundles is slow to build FIRS :)
18:25:21  * andythenorth taps fingers
18:27:27  <andythenorth> frosch123: not happy yet, but thoughts?
18:27:55  <frosch123> why do you want to distinguish organic and extractive?
18:28:36  <frosch123> if you want to distingiush farm/eng supplies, then fishing grounds will cause trouble :p
18:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm always confused for a short bit about "english supplies"
18:31:05  <andythenorth> I would prefer not to distinguish organic / extractive
18:31:14  <andythenorth> I did it because the switch was there :)
18:31:16  <andythenorth> no good reason
18:31:29  <frosch123> ok :) i set the same colour to both
18:31:54  <frosch123> i am not a big fan of the orange brown you used though
18:32:23  <frosch123> but black might indeed work for blackholes, if you go for white fonts
18:33:17  <frosch123> "black" and "white" are good choices for "other"
18:33:23  <frosch123> because they are not exactly colours
18:34:05  <Zuu> Hmm that full FIRS svg need a way to open in full browser size or so. Though you could do ctrl+'+' on desktop to zoom in far enough to be able to read it.
18:34:34  <frosch123> Zuu: if you open it in a separate tab, it is actually so big, than you cannot find anything :p
18:34:34  <Zuu> If made to cover my whole 24" screen it is almost readable. :-)
18:35:08  <frosch123> but at least you can ctrl+f a svg
18:35:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: right-click->open
18:35:31  <frosch123> or print it on a3 and put it into your bathroom
18:36:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a Civ5 techtree that came with the game. it was totally outdated on first patch...
18:36:23  <Zuu> In my browser, left clicking on individual items go to that industry. But it do have "show only this frame" in the right click menu to see only the graph in large size.
18:36:39  <frosch123> i made a civ1 techtree in ascii art, and printed in on a 9-needle printer
18:36:50  <andythenorth> I am going to find a way to show the svg zoomed, in lightbox or so
18:36:58  <andythenorth> haven’t figured that out yet
18:37:49  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i never had the need for that. i could easily memorize the tree to get around the "copy protection"
18:37:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: I tried black for black hole btw, but it obscures the arrow heads :)
18:38:27  <frosch123> ok :)
18:48:32  * andythenorth lost in colour generators
18:50:18  <andythenorth> front page of BBC News is super gloomy right now
18:50:54  <andythenorth> 5 out of 6 top stories are ‘dead’ or ‘died’ :P
18:51:22  <frosch123> i like matching colours with their meaning
18:52:03  <frosch123> but maybe that is a stage of synesthesia
18:52:06  <andythenorth> ha
18:52:27  <andythenorth> feel free to make suggestions
18:53:00  <frosch123> primary -> green like a source of stuff; secondary -> orange like something busy; other -> blue like something that doesn't want to commit to anything
18:53:29  <frosch123> but dark violet (not purple) may also work instead of blue
18:54:18  <andythenorth> currently this
18:55:12  <Alberth> bit dark
18:55:58  <andythenorth> yeah, I have bright screen
18:57:28  <Alberth> font is too big?
18:59:18  <Alberth> basic arctic is fine in the economies page, imho, if you load it in a separate tab it grows by 50% or so
19:00:36  <Alberth> good night
19:00:54  <andythenorth> bye
19:01:22  <Zuu> Good night Alberth
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19:05:26  * andythenorth battles colour contrast validator also
19:17:28  <frosch123> passenger colour is missing
19:21:11  <Eearslya> Zuu: Updated March 5th..Oh, boy this oughtta be good
19:21:44  <andythenorth> frosch123: this is a bit ugly, but
19:21:55  <andythenorth> the red is hard
19:22:13  <andythenorth> anything orange either fails colour contrast validator or looks like poo brown
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19:26:31  <frosch123> does #a04000 pass it?
19:28:44  <andythenorth> yes
19:29:05  <andythenorth> looks ok
19:29:08  <andythenorth> bit brown
19:29:19  <frosch123> i currently try primary 2a7234 (identic), secondary a04000, other 460058
19:29:58  <andythenorth> ha purple
19:30:06  * andythenorth has prejudice against purple :)
19:30:30  <Zuu> Lol, in my irc client you got purple nickname color :-)
19:31:12  <andythenorth> #482728 looks ok
19:31:43  <andythenorth> as does #1F2041
19:32:52  <andythenorth> or #42313F
19:33:16  <Eearslya> You're all purple to me. I kinda miss my colored nicks addon..
19:35:14  <frosch123> ok, inmdustries look fine now
19:35:19  <frosch123> what for cargos?
19:35:27  <frosch123> i get the lightgrey is fine
19:35:30  <frosch123> what for supplies?
19:35:41  <frosch123> yellowish?
19:35:54  <frosch123> cyanish?
19:36:42  <andythenorth> do supplies need distinguishing?
19:38:00  <frosch123> andythenorth: also, remove the <tal:cargo condition=" not in doc_helper.get_cargoflow_banned_cargos()"> from the cargo colors :)
19:38:09  <andythenorth> done :)
19:38:36  <frosch123> supply cargos are special compared to others
19:38:40  <frosch123> you may want to look for them
19:38:46  <andythenorth> ok
19:38:54  <andythenorth> hmm pax still isn’t taking the colours
19:38:57  * andythenorth will investigate
19:39:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: that's what i just said
19:39:25  <frosch123> <- that's the pax issue
19:40:02  <andythenorth> nah I did that already :)
19:40:07  <andythenorth> pax isn’t getting an ID perhaps
19:40:15  * andythenorth is bathing 2x children right now :)
19:40:21  <frosch123> oh, right...
19:41:52  <frosch123> <- yes, it is missing the id, then it works
19:42:04  <frosch123> but the yellow i picked is a bid peey
19:44:21  <frosch123> aaeeee may work for supplies
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19:56:41  * andythenorth pushes something
19:56:43  <andythenorth> and waits for bundles
19:56:56  <andythenorth> I am happy with the range of hues
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19:57:02  <andythenorth> it’s a bit dark, but eh, contrast
19:57:16  <andythenorth> fwiw
19:57:34  <frosch123> doing industries with white texts and cargos with black is certainly something i wouldn't come up with, but it's a nice separation :)
19:58:00  <frosch123> and you hated the black outlines :p
19:58:07  <andythenorth> yeah
19:58:09  <andythenorth> standard
19:58:50  <andythenorth> now how to make them fit better?
19:59:14  <frosch123> the size? or still on colours?
19:59:54  <andythenorth> size
20:00:06  <andythenorth> and how to access a bigger version
20:00:57  * andythenorth wonders about edge formatting
20:01:17  <frosch123> easy, remove all economies except basic arctic
20:02:07  <andythenorth> ortho splines? o_O
20:02:09  * andythenorth wonders
20:02:37  <frosch123> i don't think it needs custom arrows :o
20:06:53  <frosch123> i would love mousewheel zooming, but no idea how to do that :p
20:07:47  <frosch123> <- something like that?
20:08:29  <frosch123> would it work with svg? noone knows :)
20:09:23  <frosch123> <- or rahter something like that?
20:09:25  <andythenorth> ortho splines look better, but likely harder to use
20:10:00  <andythenorth> add “splines=ortho” to the digraph {} property declarations to see it...
20:10:19  <andythenorth> I was considering colouring edges per cargo
20:10:24  <andythenorth> but I can’t think of a scheme
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20:11:42  <frosch123> i don't think you can automate that in a good way
20:12:52  <andythenorth> technically I can control it, because I know the pairs, but I have NFI how to get a good result
20:14:03  <frosch123> i am not sure i like the ortho splines
20:14:31  <frosch123> they bunch up to a lot of parallel lines, which are hard to follow
20:14:43  <frosch123> they also cross more
20:15:06  <andythenorth> yeah
20:15:10  <frosch123> petrol in basic arctic for example
20:15:18  <andythenorth> they are superficially neater
20:15:20  <andythenorth> but not better
20:16:53  <frosch123> can we change the color of svg lines on hoover? :p
20:17:13  * andythenorth tests
20:17:56  <frosch123> may need postprocessing to add something to the polygons :p
20:17:58  <andythenorth> ha ha
20:18:09  <andythenorth> svg supports :hover
20:19:12  <frosch123> well, can we group all lines belonging to the same cargo, and hover highlight them?
20:20:55  <andythenorth> urgh
20:20:59  <andythenorth> maybe with scripting :)
20:21:21  <andythenorth> currently I’ve got one line at a time
20:21:57  <frosch123> how important do you consider the stuff being printable, i.e. not interactive?
20:22:45  <frosch123> hmm, but yeah, a plethora of different arrow colours would look ugly in any case
20:23:36  <Eearslya> Whee, my first patch
20:24:40  <andythenorth> frosch123: pull
20:24:44  <andythenorth> printable, dunno
20:25:26  <frosch123> Eearslya: i think you can turn those two if into a single one
20:25:57  <frosch123> bool is_sell_widget = widget == WID_D_SELL;
20:26:19  <frosch123> if (is_sell_widget != this->sell_hovered) { ... }
20:27:06  <Eearslya> I really, really wanted to condense them; I just didn't think of it that way
20:32:32  <Eearslya> There we go, updated
20:32:53  <Eearslya> I'm just not quite that creative with my if statements, the thought never occurred to me
20:33:26  <frosch123> think of it as 1. compute the target state, 2. check whether it differs from the current state
20:34:00  <frosch123> anyway, bbl
20:34:02  <Eearslya> Sound advice; I'll keep that in mind
20:36:10  <andythenorth> frosch123: I’m quite happy with the colours now
20:36:27  <andythenorth> still dunno how to control dimensions though
20:37:24  <frosch123> ouch, don't you think the lines are a bit too strong
20:37:44  <frosch123> they dwarf the font size
20:37:53  <andythenorth> well
20:38:01  <frosch123> but yes, colours are nice
20:38:06  <frosch123> bbl
20:38:10  <andythenorth> I haven’t pushed the one with smaller lines
20:38:48  * andythenorth looks for svg canvas size
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21:27:17  <frosch123> oh, the tooltip text on the arrows is not nice yet
21:29:10  <andythenorth> ha
21:29:15  <andythenorth> I just pushed a few things
21:29:46  <frosch123> hmm, should the tooltip just be empty, or should it say the cargo, name, or both source/dest?
21:30:15  <andythenorth> I find it low value :)
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21:33:40  <frosch123> hmm, so you made the size so one cannot read any of them :p
21:33:50  <andythenorth> yes well
21:33:58  <andythenorth> that is a problem
21:35:07  <andythenorth> I don’t know whether to use lightbox for larger, or redesign the page
21:35:21  <andythenorth> or try and co-erce graphviz to fit full FIRS in a sensible width
21:35:30  <andythenorth> I tried fighting graphviz for a bit
21:35:35  <frosch123> don't try :)
21:35:45  <frosch123> full firs is hopeless in that respect
21:35:53  <frosch123> *regard ?
21:36:22  <frosch123> i think lightbox could work
21:36:33  <frosch123> something that display it full screen, but without scrollbars
21:37:39  <andythenorth> lightbox tends to suck if you use the back button, as they are usually closed when going back
21:38:02  <andythenorth> full FIRS just isn’t going to fit in my browser window :)
21:38:12  <andythenorth> I have 1280x960 or so
21:38:18  <frosch123> document.documentElement.requestFullscreen(); <- would that work?
21:38:28  <andythenorth> ha dunno
21:38:40  * andythenorth reads about it
21:39:07  <andythenorth> experimental :)
21:39:08  <andythenorth>
21:39:12  <andythenorth> let’s experiment? o_O
21:39:29  <frosch123> supported since ff10, chrome15, so ages?
21:41:28  * andythenorth uses Safari, for reasons :P
21:41:42  <andythenorth> I have been up too long to fight javascript today :)
21:46:40  <frosch123> night then :)
21:47:00  * andythenorth must tidy the kitchen and so forth :)
21:47:14  <frosch123> damn, me too :/
21:48:00  <andythenorth> eh, well, that was fun day of code
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22:01:19  <drac_boy> hi
22:02:19  <Eearslya> meow
22:02:31  <drac_boy> how're you?
22:02:54  <Eearslya> Bored and slightly sleepy
22:03:31  <frosch123> i commented your fs patch
22:03:46  <drac_boy> heh ok
22:03:57  <frosch123> not yours, if you have one :p
22:07:17  <Eearslya> Fixed that
22:11:45  <drac_boy> frosch so anyway..didn't we talk about something about trains the last time? (just asking)
22:13:14  <frosch123> Eearslya: i am greeping for where "sel" is reset
22:13:25  <frosch123> does it also need something in OnDragDrop?
22:13:42  <frosch123> drac_boy: trains? in this channel?
22:14:19  <drac_boy> yeah
22:15:04  <frosch123> i think i told you thatmodern trains in germany are powered by a mix of 40% coal, 20% nuclear, 20% wind and 20% solar power
22:16:19  <frosch123> you can buy a slighty more expensive ticket to claim that your seat is powered by the 40% solar/wind though
22:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> there's at least 5% water missing in there
22:16:43  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, and biomass and whatnot
22:16:51  <frosch123> i only guessed roughly
22:17:08  <frosch123> it's also hard to estimate with the nuclear imports from france
22:17:14  <frosch123> and the solar exports to italy
22:17:23  <__ln__> how did all the passengers fit into the train when it's already filled by a nuclear reactor, coal plant and wind turbines
22:17:26  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't french like 95% nuclear?
22:18:05  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but there is a big energy flow in europe that goes france -> germany -> austria -> italy
22:18:15  <drac_boy> at least switzerland can hold some claim to low pollution ratio of their power sources tho
22:19:17  <Eearslya> Hmm; sel isn't something I messed with, but I'll try and find it
22:19:20  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: if you discount one out of 400 nuclear power stations blowing up every 25 years...
22:19:25  <frosch123> __ln__: superior technology allows to put the power source into a different space continuum, which also lowers the weigt of the train
22:20:18  <frosch123> Eearslya: that var specifies which vehicle is being dragged, so it helps finding the places where dragging is started and stopped
22:20:28  <drac_boy> eddi..I'm thinking more of the hydro sources but hmm yeah I think they do have a bit of powerplant mix too tho
22:20:50  <Eearslya> frosch123: Looks like DepotClick, l512
22:21:17  <frosch123> that's where it starts
22:21:43  <frosch123> i think you need to set sell_hovered to false in all places that stop dragging
22:21:47  <frosch123> so whenever "sel" is reset
22:21:53  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: if you ever followed the news, the swiss have a problem with microfractures in their nuclear power stations, including somebody drilling holes in them to fix fire extinguishers
22:22:55  <drac_boy> <also had been looking at a few model ideas and still deciding to go with a small mountain layout since I can buy some Bemo trains dutyfree
22:23:01  <drac_boy> I see :-s
22:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause> also, like in all the rest of the world, they put the nuclear plants in geologically active areas (aka. earthquake zones)... because that's where the rivers are which are used for cooling, and where all the people live that need the power
22:24:52  <Eearslya> frosch123: You have any idea what OnTimeout is? It seems to raise the sell widget too for some reason
22:25:12  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: <- actually, db has its own power plants and grid, so is less involved in the energy trade
22:25:28  <frosch123> Eearslya: it's a timer event
22:25:37  <frosch123> in ottd buttons do not react to mouse-up
22:25:52  * drac_boy still would like to try find if theres a non-brass source for africa or french trains too (and being in canada so hmm yeah, tricky)
22:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, i meant to bring that fact up
22:25:58  <frosch123> they trigger on mouse-down, and a timer raises the button shortly after
22:26:04  <drac_boy> trains=modeltrains*
22:26:34  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: did you play outpost2?
22:26:43  <Eddi|zuHause> no, only outpost1
22:26:48  <frosch123> there are two factions in that game, the smart ones and the stupid ones
22:27:09  <frosch123> the stupid ones always settle near to a vulcan, so in about every mission you have to evacuate from there and settle somewhere safe
22:27:49  <frosch123> i got outpost1&2 in a bundle, outpost1 is certainly the biggest scam experience i ever had
22:28:03  <frosch123> ("scam" is likely not the right term, but i cannot remember the right one just now)
22:28:15  <drac_boy> oh yeah I remember now..I was also talking about mixed trains (and a rather unusual uk photo I found too)
22:28:39  <Eearslya> frosch123: Well, logically, the only times that sel would be reset and sell_hovered is true are handled; It handles if the vehicle is actually sold, and if it's cancelled. Not sure where else it'd need it..
22:28:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i was sort of addicted to outpost when it was new, but it certainly was extremely unfinished
22:28:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea where i got it from, though
22:29:47  <drac_boy> actually I had been wondering a bit about NS trains too but as I'm not sure if their sort of operations could be tailored to a model layout tho (these 2- and 3-car Mat** trainsets are easy to get ahold of
22:30:28  <drac_boy> frosch... maybe another word could be 'let down'?
22:31:14  <frosch123> drac_boy: nah, more criminal
22:31:19  <frosch123> like a completely unfinished game
22:31:25  <frosch123> that does not do at all what i claims
22:32:07  <frosch123> at the start of the game you are sent through an endless "web form" with hundreds of things to set and select
22:32:15  <frosch123> which has no influence on anything whatsoever
22:32:54  <frosch123> you can research many things in game, but all they do is "hey, you researched X"
22:34:31  <drac_boy> frosch ah I see...yeah sounds like a big duff :-s
22:35:53  <frosch123> i grew up in a small town, to buy video games one had to drive to a bigger city
22:36:01  <frosch123> but everytime i bought a video game, it was crap
22:37:15  <frosch123> on contrast, that stuff that you can trade in school was already prefiltered, so always better
22:37:42  <Eddi|zuHause> yes ;)
22:38:07  <frosch123> so i learned at young age that pirated stuff is of better quality than bought stuff :)
22:38:17  <Eddi|zuHause> well, Transport Tycoon was good, as we knew that from the demo. but it was crazy expensive
22:39:24  <frosch123> Eearslya: i guess it does not matter. technically when dropping the vehicle on the button, OnDragDrop raises the button via HandleButtonClick, but sell_hovered remains true
22:39:52  <frosch123> however, sell_hovered is only evaluated in OnMouseDrag, and the next time you start dragging a vehicle, the mouse is no longer over the sell button
22:40:03  <frosch123> it would only matter if there was a hotkey to start dragging a vehicle :p
22:41:36  <Xaroth|Work> ok, which of you guys has been playing too much space engineers?
22:42:04  <frosch123> never heard of it
22:42:16  <frosch123> it has ttd music
22:42:32  <Xaroth|Work> space engineers is like minecraft
22:42:34  <Xaroth|Work> only in space
22:42:41  <Xaroth|Work> ... with spiders o_O
22:42:59  <frosch123> oh, is that the thing argoneus wanted to sell me yesterday?
22:43:25  <Xaroth|Work> dunno
22:43:39  <frosch123> he said something about minecraft in space with trains
22:44:02  <Xaroth|Work> then he probably meant this
22:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you mixed some stuff there :p
22:44:20  <frosch123> though iirc he said it was a minecraft mod
22:44:24  <Eddi|zuHause> selective memory :p
22:45:05  <frosch123> Xaroth|Work: anyway, it looks more like train simulator
22:45:15  <frosch123> i like management/building games
22:45:33  <argoneus> frosch123: i meant minecarft with mods
22:45:34  <argoneus> minecraft
22:49:42  <drac_boy> oh yeah eddi you remember how I found that photo of a uk train that had the coaches in middle of consist instead of being shunted near either end?
22:54:58  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27446 trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp (2015-11-14 23:54:52 +0100 )
22:55:00  <DorpsGek> -Feature: Lower the sell-vehicle button in the depot GUI while dragging a vehicle over it. (Eearslya)
22:55:10  <frosch123> Eearslya: thanks, nice feature :)
22:55:35  <Eddi|zuHause> now one can finally sell invisible vehicles :p
22:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well, not really, but the chance is a bit higher :p
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22:58:46  <argoneus> space engineers is not a very good game
22:58:57  <argoneus> it's still an unoptimized alpha
22:59:44  <Xaroth|Work> argoneus: same goes for minecraft tbh :P
23:00:13  <frosch123> argoneus: time to preorder it? :p
23:01:14  <frosch123> i pondered starting a bullshit thread on the forums
23:01:35  <frosch123> with the question: how much would you pay to preorder ottd 2.0
23:02:14  <frosch123> but usually the forum people don't consider that funny
23:02:20  <frosch123> (maybe noone does)
23:02:40  <Xaroth|Work> heh
23:02:41  <Xaroth|Work> the rage
23:02:57  <Wolf01> i would pay 9.99€
23:03:57  <Wolf01> but only with season pass included, i don't want to pay again every time andy releases a dlc
23:03:58  <Wolf01> ;)
23:04:20  <frosch123> oi, firs season pass
23:04:26  <frosch123> too bad andy already left
23:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andy always already left...
23:05:01  <Eddi|zuHause> also, frosch123 always already left :p
23:05:07  <Eddi|zuHause> and drac_boy :p
23:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's me :p
23:05:46  <frosch123> i thought i join just after being summoned
23:06:50  * drac_boy pokes eddi with a coal shovel
23:06:52  <drac_boy> heh?
23:07:35  <argoneus> Xaroth|Work: mc is playable
23:07:38  <argoneus> without crashes every 5 mins
23:09:25  <drac_boy> and which of hows this for a strange looking locomotive in uk? :)
23:09:50  <drac_boy> I almost expect that glass box above the yellow face to flash a bit like KITT's red light :)
23:10:28  <Wolf01> aahah
23:10:45  <frosch123> why do brittish engines always have such a steep front?
23:11:36  <frosch123> also, what weird engine is that
23:11:38  <drac_boy> wolf01 well..what can I say :)
23:11:49  <frosch123> it does not have the cabin in the front, but it does not seem to be a steam engine either
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23:12:09  <drac_boy> frosch...there were actually a few uk diesels with the cab being placed flat at one end
23:12:15  <drac_boy> not just only the class 09's
23:12:23  <frosch123> in my mind only steam engines have the cabin in the back, because of the tender
23:13:50  <drac_boy> frosch well I recall these particular then-common diesels would sometimes run nose-to-nose (aka cab forward) in pair .. other times its cab-to-cab
23:13:59  <drac_boy> trying to find the proper name now so hang on :)
23:15:28  <Wolf01> frosch123, what about the fairlie ones?
23:15:44  <drac_boy> aha it was called 'Type 1' (with its small size compared to everything else no wonder it got numbered one)
23:16:15  <drac_boy> seem to be listed for 1000hp in 1957+ (that explains them often doubleheading)
23:16:51  <drac_boy> wolf01 fairlie? you mean that weird stuffed up thing that looks like someone crashed two locomotives into each others' rear? :)
23:16:59  <Wolf01> yeah
23:17:14  <frosch123> yeah, it's two engines
23:17:29  <frosch123> like you can put two graphics cards into one computer, but still run only one display
23:17:32  <drac_boy> I never really understood the reasoning behind its design but then again it does seem interesting running down the line nevertheless
23:17:35  <frosch123> but at double frame rate or so
23:17:56  <Wolf01> also there are these
23:17:57  <drac_boy> I'll rather order a standard compound 0-6-6-0 or so if I had needed more traction..but to our own :)
23:18:30  <drac_boy> wolf01 that seem to error out?
23:18:38  <Wolf01> mmmh
23:18:51  <Wolf01>
23:19:54  <drac_boy> wolf01 ah well that was due to both being oil fired and re having a lot of tunnel on grade so simple solution to smoke problem was to flip the thing around and run long oil pipes as to put the cab ahead of the smokestack
23:20:18  <drac_boy> but then sometimes they ran doublehead so the second cab still had to carry a breather kit to work safely through the tunnels :-s
23:21:13  <Wolf01> and as i love finding weird steam locomotives, here is a little bonus:
23:22:00  <drac_boy> wolf01 not quite related but the EMD SD40T came to be only because the original units overheated easily in the long 10mph drag through tunnels .. so the major alteration was to make the engine suck air from just below the chassis (instead of right at the roof as usual) and that more or less cured the overheat shutdown issues
23:22:12  <drac_boy> T could be short for 'Tunnel motors' as it sometimes was called on paper
23:22:59  <drac_boy> not surprisingly the SD40T were only found in the colorado area (and only when UP did buy out SP did these locomotives then sometimes end up on different routes too)
23:23:04  <frosch123> Wolf01: yay, an explosive-safe engine
23:24:04  <Wolf01> it reminds me of the steamboy anime movie
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23:25:15  <drac_boy> wolf01 btw if you want something a bit less than normal .. look up the 4-2-0 and 2-2-0's that existed during the 1800's era (basically same chassis&boiler as the then-common American 4-4-0's after all)
23:25:35  <drac_boy> kinda weird to see what looks like a 4-4-0 locomotive actually instead riding on 2-2-0 axles :-s
23:26:01  <drac_boy> and which of I need to afk for a bit...shouldn't be too long tho (unless buffer fluxes up)
23:26:49  <Wolf01> you mean these?
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23:32:17  <Wolf01> i can't understand this one
23:32:24  <Wolf01> 0-2-0?
23:40:56  <drac_boy> heh that 4-2-0 looks weird..almost like a donkey engine slapped into some weird boiler
23:43:15  <frosch123> Wolf01: don't drive it without a wagon, i guess?
23:43:38  <frosch123> but hey, all axles are powered :)
23:44:20  <Wolf01> it looks like one of these
23:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause> is that a segway crossed with a lawnmower? :p
23:47:05  <Wolf01> we used a lot of these here, usually you stick a cart to it and go around
23:47:37  <Wolf01> or you just use it to turn over your garden
23:55:44  <drac_boy> btw heres how to make a 0-2-0 ... by attaching a tender to it :P
23:56:15  <drac_boy> and ever more weird .. no idea if it'll steam with all that cold pipes!
23:57:30  <Wolf01> mmmh weird
23:58:02  <drac_boy> wolf01 I do know something you may like tho...what kind of locomotive has two separate boilers driving a common center rail? :P
23:58:31  <Wolf01> i know that one
23:59:23  <Wolf01> ?
23:59:37  <drac_boy> heh yep :)
23:59:43  <drac_boy> only example of its own kind if I recall

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