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00:00:29 <drac_boy> just wondering, any bus fans here? 00:14:09 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 00:46:40 <drac_boy> or perhaps at least any train ones :P 01:15:06 *** DDR_ [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: DDR is not Dance Dance Revolution] 01:15:20 *** DDR_ [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 01:39:29 *** rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: I'll be Bach] 01:52:09 * drac_boy throws some random pixel grfs into here before going off 01:52:11 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [] 02:05:17 <Wolf01> 'night 02:05:21 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 02:07:57 *** DDR [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:08:19 *** DDR_ [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:18:38 *** fjb [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:27:03 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 03:59:09 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5AED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 05:56:16 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5C8C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 06:42:25 *** roidal [~roland@194-152-172-168.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd 06:43:37 *** roidal_ [~roland@193-154-136-77.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd 06:50:32 *** roidal [~roland@194-152-172-168.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:14:15 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 07:15:41 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 07:18:08 <andythenorth> o/ 08:12:19 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19DC6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 08:14:18 *** Demosthenex [~Demosthen@c-98-201-100-25.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:25:49 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 08:25:52 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 08:27:24 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.customer.cloud.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:26 <andythenorth> lo Alberth 08:29:37 <Alberth> moin andy 08:36:16 * andythenorth throws some FIRS off a cliff 08:36:20 <andythenorth> to make new bits 08:37:44 <Supercheese> synthesis via destruction eh? 08:38:39 <andythenorth> possibly 08:47:48 <andythenorth> hmm 08:57:01 <andythenorth> industry nml props prob_in_game and prob_random 08:57:08 <andythenorth> do the opposite of what I expected 08:59:16 <andythenorth> nvm 09:01:30 <Alberth> you learn new stuff all the time :) 09:03:35 <andythenorth> ambiguously named props 09:03:43 <andythenorth> âthis is why we have docsâ :P 09:04:27 <andythenorth> I expect prob_random to be industries generated in game, because it uses a random industry construction cb 09:04:30 <andythenorth> nvm 09:05:54 <Alberth> we could add a second name for "prob_random" that better expresses what it does 09:06:17 <andythenorth> prob_map_gen 09:06:24 <andythenorth> I could just fix that in FIRS :P 09:06:52 <Alberth> haha, you copied nml names? :) 09:07:18 <Alberth> own names are always best :p 09:12:41 <Alberth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pylgirvfu :) 09:14:46 <andythenorth> controversially, I kept a 1:1 mapping between the property names in FIRS compile, and the existing nml property that they refer t o :P 09:15:01 <andythenorth> Alberth: push that? o_O 09:15:27 <andythenorth> needs a wiki update too, which I canât do (canât login) 09:23:18 <Alberth> using nml names means you get docimented names for free :p 09:23:42 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 09:23:48 <Alberth> hi zuu 09:24:00 <Zuu> Hello Alberth 09:24:25 <Zuu> I'm here to admit that I accidently wrote a patch for OpenTTD :-) 09:24:35 <Alberth> oops :) 09:25:15 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 09:25:15 <andythenorth> oh noes 09:25:38 <Alberth> planetmaker: how does the added property (see paste) look to you? 09:26:07 <Zuu> When download content window displays a main type of content, it hides all other unless they have been selected for download as dependency. 09:26:28 <Zuu> I though I had a patch for that, but I didn't, so I ended up writing one. 09:26:36 <Alberth> makes sense 09:27:30 <Alberth> ah, too much time travel confuses the mind about past and future :) 09:28:08 <Zuu> Currently it disables that filter when you use text filter. But I might use both filters instead. If not, it would probably need to alter sort order of type sort to show the main type at top. 09:29:35 <Zuu> I saw now when you open the scenario download content window, the whole screen is full of NewGRFs etc. and no scenario is shown unless you scroll past all of them. 09:33:07 <andythenorth> hmm 09:33:48 <andythenorth> FIRS does not need âintermediateâ economies 09:33:56 <andythenorth> I reckon 09:34:17 * andythenorth makes another big one 09:34:27 <Alberth> filter on type in the download window would be useful I think 09:34:46 <Alberth> invite others to make such economies? 09:35:35 <Zuu> Hmm, current patch doesn't add onything to the GUI. but maybe it should add a drop down that show eg. 'scenario' and is disabled when you open the window from play scenario? 09:35:43 <andythenorth> I think thereâs a standing option to patch their own FIRS :) 09:35:46 <Alberth> although we may end up with loads of firs-like industry grfs :) 09:35:51 <andythenorth> which is what GarryG has done for Australia 09:36:03 <andythenorth> and the other one that I forget the name of 09:36:11 <andythenorth> their are two FIRS forks active atm :) 09:36:20 <andythenorth> SPI 09:36:29 <Alberth> ah yes, the pax thing 09:36:36 <andythenorth> also there / their /s stupid English 09:36:54 <Alberth> never played it, could do that one time 09:37:06 <Alberth> :) 09:37:21 * andythenorth wants to play MP coop game with andythenorth grfs 09:37:28 <Alberth> Zuu: why disable, just select 'scenarios' ? 09:37:44 <andythenorth> but andythenorth grfs are always âneeds a push build, not on bananasâ 09:37:57 <andythenorth> there is a meta problem, I wonât release without testing, and MP testing needs a release :P 09:38:38 <andythenorth> 2016: bananas 2 09:38:51 <Alberth> make an alpha release, test, make a proper release, play in coop? 09:39:35 <Alberth> we need some sort of design first, I think 09:40:22 <Zuu> Alberth: Perhaps. Though I think I will focus on the actual filtering first. Thinking about rewriting it a bit so it will AND the two filters instead of disable the type filter when you use text search. At least for the newbie scenario case, they may still be confused when looking for scenarios and getting lot of hits when typing 'tutorial', but maybe that will make it too easy for them and dumb it down for all others? 09:40:40 <andythenorth> canât release any FIRS 2 to bananas until April 2016, because of the OpenTTD industry limit :) 09:40:55 <Alberth> you don't think the "space" problem with firs farms exists because he made a scenario or so? andy? 09:41:20 <andythenorth> I donât know, I didnât look further :) 09:41:56 <Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=188157 looks very constructed :) 09:42:07 <andythenorth> ho yes 09:42:52 <Alberth> Zuu: it would probably help if it would be marked as "dependency" or "used by X" or so 09:43:27 <Alberth> maybe even in a separate list, but that may be a lot of work 09:43:54 <Alberth> not sure why he compresses it that much, at 2048**2, you have enough space 09:43:56 <Zuu> True, but do we have horisontal space for dependency text? 09:44:16 <Alberth> no idea 09:44:29 <andythenorth> maybe heâs trying to get high production 09:45:02 <Alberth> a column with [x] and a tooltip perhaps? no idea about feasibility though 09:45:23 <Alberth> definitely for high production, I'd say 09:46:42 <andythenorth> it may even be FIRS 2 09:46:48 <andythenorth> production numbers look high 09:46:55 * andythenorth shrugs 09:47:34 <Zuu> It could be done I guess, but probably would need a reverse of ContentInfo::dependencies array or even just a single bit, as that check would be done for all items in the list. As double-looping the whole list on OnInvalidateData may be a bit too much. 09:49:41 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has joined #openttd 09:51:23 <Alberth> he's in 1.5.2, not firs2 09:52:12 <Alberth> you need that information anyway to display the dependencies, I think 09:56:53 <Zuu> Actually not. First I did a second loop over all content to see if there are any dependencies. This only need to be performed for content with type different from the main content type. But then I found out it is enough for the filter to just include items of the main type or have been selected (manually or auto) for download. 09:57:54 <Zuu> OpenTTD auto-select dependencies before the filtering is done, so it can just check for items being (auto)selected. 09:58:18 <Alberth> ah, nice 09:58:44 <Alberth> just indicating it's a dependency might be enough then? 09:59:07 <Alberth> which is probably equivalent to "not the main type" 09:59:27 <Zuu> Yep 09:59:30 <Alberth> until you have newgrfs that depend on other newgrfs :p 09:59:35 <Alberth> eg ECS 09:59:52 <Zuu> oh yeah 10:00:18 <Alberth> don't think it's coded in the download though 10:01:00 <Alberth> maybe it needs a higher level description, sort of groups of things together 10:01:27 <Zuu> Problem is that one item can be selected as dependency for many "main content" 10:02:14 <Zuu> It could use a confirm window which list all you selected and after that all you have as dependency. Or make a third filter that does just that. :-) 10:02:35 <Alberth> hmm, maybe highlight deps if you select some content? 10:02:58 <Zuu> Sort order would of course be to alter the type sort to put 'main type' at top regardles of alphabetical sort. 10:03:16 <Alberth> confirm window would work too, package management update does that too 10:03:48 <Zuu> different bg color? Italics or grey text would be my choice elsewhere, but neither of those I think work in OpenTTD. 10:04:30 <Alberth> hmm, what did I do in "hide vehicle" in buy window? 10:05:25 <Alberth> I added "(hidden)" I think, not sure if I did something else too 10:06:40 <Zuu> They do use grey text color. So perhaps my memory was wrong about grey text and OpenTTd. 10:06:52 <Alberth> it's quite new :) 10:07:09 <Zuu> Oh, there we had time travel again :-p 10:08:58 <Zuu> Hmm buy window use white text to show selected. DL content window use grey background. 10:09:55 <Alberth> obviously, or things would be too consistent :p 10:10:02 <Zuu> :-) 10:10:57 <Zuu> Though, grey background to show selection on a grey window would not work so good. And in a table, it makes sense to highlight using background. 10:12:36 * andythenorth needs more types of port industry 10:12:38 <andythenorth> 3 is not enough 10:13:09 <andythenorth> this is a case where the silly industry random cargo cb could be applied :P 10:13:14 <andythenorth> but that breaks all the things 10:13:14 <Alberth> some container transfer thingie? 10:13:19 <andythenorth> intermodal port? 10:13:22 <andythenorth> maybe 10:14:10 <andythenorth> similarly, petro-chemical terminal 10:14:35 <Alberth> ah yes, some long pipe sticking out into the sea :) 10:15:06 <andythenorth> the ships still have to dock at coast though :) 10:15:09 <andythenorth> due to docks 10:15:20 <andythenorth> NewDocks 10:15:30 <Alberth> can't modify docks? 10:15:40 <Alberth> stuck with 2 tiles I guess :( 10:15:57 <andythenorth> I think thatâs fixable 10:16:10 <Alberth> or make a 2tile pipe :p 10:16:13 <andythenorth> I just donât know how, and Iâm inclined to finish some things before trying new things 10:16:19 <Zuu> When you open a dl content window from eg. play scenario, it seems that network layer make a limited fetch of content. Still it manages to include dependencies. My point is though, disable "non main type filter" when you search in would include some more content (dependencies to visible content), but not the whole list of content available. Would that be cunfusing, and maybe better to not show dependencies until you select something needing it? 10:16:31 <andythenorth> better docks are one of the few worthwhile ponies imho 10:16:44 <Zuu> Or is it from usability just better to not even hide them, but make them grey and sorted to the bottom? 10:17:09 <Alberth> good approach andy, finishing X before doing Y, I still mostly fail at that 10:18:10 <Zuu> Hmm.. maybe I should start with the sort part and see what we get out of that. Postpone filtering until it is clear it is needed too. 10:19:01 <andythenorth> I have at least 4X 10:19:04 <Alberth> I would only add display of dependent things 10:19:18 <andythenorth> adding Y would be overwhelming :P 10:19:41 <Zuu> No sort fix? I mean open the scenario dl content, and you see not a single scenario. :-) 10:20:53 <Alberth> euhm, yeah, I was just answering your last question, I didn't understand it included sort fixing too :) 10:22:03 <Zuu> The sort fix could generate bug reports though. "why is not alphabetical sort working in my game?" :-) 10:22:04 <Alberth> I thought it was only about displaying more things 10:23:00 <Alberth> I am missing something here probably 10:23:06 <Zuu> Showing of A being a dependency is something I probably will postpone. 10:23:23 <Alberth> separate patch would be useful at least 10:23:44 <Zuu> yep 10:23:48 <planetmaker> Alberth, I like that change to the property name 10:23:51 * andythenorth considers a gypsum cargo 10:23:55 <andythenorth> gypsum -> cement plant 10:23:57 <Alberth> alphabetical sort includes type of content? ugh 10:24:10 <andythenorth> but then I have to draw a gypsum mine :P 10:24:21 <Zuu> No, but our type sort is alphabetical sort on the localized type name IIRC 10:24:23 <Alberth> planetmaker: ok, thanks, and good morning :) 10:24:25 <planetmaker> good morning also :) 10:24:55 <Zuu> My change would put the main type on top (or bottom with descending sort) regardless of its localized name. 10:25:09 <Zuu> Hopefully not making too many users think the sort is broken... 10:25:42 <Alberth> filter on type would be less confusing 10:26:01 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 10:26:25 <Zuu> As in strict filter, or as in my patch - include dependecies when selected? 10:27:27 <Zuu> And with a bonus question: disable type filter when using text filter? 10:27:40 <Alberth> I often sort on availability (first column) after selecting 'update', to check what will be downloaded 10:27:59 <Alberth> so you could add such meta types, for example 10:28:48 <Alberth> settings window keeps the filter, and adds a warning 10:29:05 <Alberth> in particular when the filter kills all selection 10:29:25 <Zuu> Oh.. I though it disabled the filter. But that explains why no code in the whole OpenTTD yet use the GUIList capability of selecting what filter to be active. 10:30:11 <Alberth> I coded the warning, to avoid bug reports "where is setting X?" :) 10:31:08 <Zuu> Then I follow your example and hide non-main content in the search filter wihch is what I would prefer myself, but though it would go against the settings window. 10:31:54 <Alberth> ha :p 10:31:56 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.customer.cloud.nl] has joined #openttd 10:32:19 <Zuu> Looking up your warning now, it is quite clever in telling you exactly if you need to go to advanced or expert to show all. :-) 10:36:12 <Alberth> warning display is a bit easy to miss, hidden quite well in plain sight :) 10:37:30 <Zuu> Oh.. settings_gui.cpp is not using GUIList. 10:40:50 *** DDR_ [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 10:41:34 *** DDR [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 10:43:29 <LordAro> morning all 10:44:36 <Alberth> hi hi 10:48:15 <Alberth> planetmaker: added the new property to the industries property list, does it need to be added elsewhere? 10:49:08 * andythenorth ponders hydroelectric plant 10:49:28 <andythenorth> deliver building materials to a river site, then it floods a 4x16 section of the map :P 10:49:34 <andythenorth> canât quite do that in newgrf 10:51:21 <Alberth> make a new disaster :p 10:51:30 <Alberth> cargo-delivery disaster :p 10:51:35 <andythenorth> ha 10:51:44 <andythenorth> or cargo delivery failure disaster 10:51:46 <andythenorth> dam bursts 10:53:59 <Alberth> hmm, scenario to reconnect cities surrounded by water after a flood, where you have to reclaim land but with a high land-build cost? 10:54:26 <planetmaker> hm, I don't think so - except wiki 10:54:35 <planetmaker> but let's look 10:54:37 <Zuu> Hmm, in GUIList you can supply multiple filter functions. When two filters are to be AND togeather, should I just join that to a single filter function, or in my BuildContentList() apply one filter at a time? The later breaks it a bit in that GUIList will keep track if it has been filtered yet or not. So perhaps just make a single filter function that filter both on text and type. 10:55:18 <andythenorth> âwaterworldâ 10:55:19 <andythenorth> :P 10:55:25 <Alberth> planetmaker: list of changes in trunk? 10:55:34 <andythenorth> needs a GS that hands out more land for completing goals 10:56:07 <Zuu> That is what the Split scenario does :-) 10:56:37 <Zuu> Complete the goal on the main island, and it will raise a land bridge to a smaller island where there are some bonus industries. 10:57:01 <andythenorth> ha 10:57:08 <Alberth> I was thinking you have to pay for the land :p 10:57:10 <Zuu> It was made before GS could construct industries. So you better complete the goal fast enough so the bonus industries doesn't close themself. 10:57:44 <planetmaker> Alberth, for nml that usually is compiled for each release based on the commit messages 10:58:06 <Alberth> ok, sounds easy enough 10:59:44 <Alberth> I just duplicated the text of prob_random mostly, with some added before/after version text, is that enough, does it need "depreceated" or so? 11:00:29 <andythenorth> coal mines in tropic? o_O 11:00:33 * andythenorth teddy bear coding here 11:01:32 * Zuu solved his AND filter he thinks 11:06:45 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest8831 11:06:47 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 11:08:23 <Alberth> gold mines is more likely, isn't it? (or diamond mines) 11:08:32 <andythenorth> got diamonds 11:11:13 *** Guest8831 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:11:25 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 11:11:40 <andythenorth> loads of coal in congo 11:11:43 <andythenorth> just not mined :) 11:11:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "rare earths" 11:11:57 <andythenorth> for your phone 11:12:01 <andythenorth> with child labour 11:12:09 * andythenorth making alternate reality post-colonial thing now 11:14:34 <Flygon> Now I want a 8192*4096 Africa map :U 11:14:47 <Flygon> It'd be neat to start from 1500 or something, assuming appropriate GRFs 11:18:01 <andythenorth> this will be a big economy, that should be fun to play with Busy Bee 11:18:12 <andythenorth> although Busy Bee needs fixing also :) 11:20:06 <Flygon> Shame it's not possible to have a Civ II style OpenTTD map yet 11:20:09 <Flygon> That'd be kickass as hell 11:20:19 <Flygon> But I understand why that isn't a feature yet 11:20:33 <Flygon> What with the pathfinding, and new method of mapping coordinates required 11:22:21 <Alberth> I wondered whether BB should steer towards re-use of existing infra structure 11:22:46 <andythenorth> interesting idea 11:22:56 <andythenorth> I think that would be Efficient Bee 11:23:09 <andythenorth> or Maximum Utilisation of Capital Assets Bee 11:23:17 <andythenorth> or Ant Trails Bee 11:23:25 <Alberth> ha :D 11:23:46 <andythenorth> I like that BB makes a mess of my map ;) 11:25:46 <Alberth> it needs more random :p 11:25:58 <Alberth> or even actively steering away from re-use :p 11:26:09 <Zuu> It would be interesting with the idea where GS can enable/disable range of tiles for a player to build on. Then it could expand this range as your company grows forcing you to incrementally grow your allowed area. 11:27:14 <Alberth> there are lots of uses for "collections of tiles", eg indsutry creation limits 11:27:31 <Alberth> ie coalmines in the north 11:28:39 <Alberth> but specifying such areas is tricky, you probably either need to do it in squirrel, or in a scenario, with the new format(?) 11:29:18 <Alberth> another option is to give full control over payment of transported cargo 11:29:56 <Alberth> ie as policy, you only get paid for transport between X and Y according to this and this formula 11:30:13 <andythenorth> can we track cargo source? 11:30:17 <andythenorth> I thought that was infeasible? 11:30:20 <Alberth> people will stop transporting other stuff very quickly :p 11:30:36 <Alberth> cargo-payment code does it, right? 11:30:49 <andythenorth> I donât know :D 11:31:04 <Alberth> well, do you get paid for transported cargo? :D 11:31:34 <Alberth> but you can't do it for the actual transferred goods, in real time 11:31:53 <Alberth> so you must make a payment policy that openttd follows 11:33:03 <Alberth> hmm, it would collide with cargo-dist 11:33:10 <Alberth> not good :( 12:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> iirc there was a NewGRF callback for cargo payment 12:01:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but GS don't work in callbacks... 12:04:38 <andythenorth> it wouldnât have to collide with cdist 12:04:47 <andythenorth> just build point-point 12:06:21 <Alberth> newgrf would work too, but then you need a GS -> NewGRF connection 12:19:16 * andythenorth needs to add some kind of farm for grain http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#<economy.Economy%20object%20at%200x29da210> 12:19:23 <andythenorth> bah I should fix those docs :( 12:31:39 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:15 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 12:33:22 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#hopes-and-impediments 12:33:24 <andythenorth> better 12:37:26 <Alberth> grain grows in sub-tropic? 12:37:54 <Alberth> hmm, I guess it does 12:38:30 <Alberth> I am tempted to add rice, but it's the wrong continent :) 12:38:40 <Alberth> perhaps import grain? 12:40:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: add a Economy.__repr__ function? 12:41:05 <Eddi|zuHause> or use str() at the right place? 12:42:16 <andythenorth> I just used the name string instead and do replace(â â, â-â).lower() 12:42:23 <andythenorth> .lower is only for appearance, itâs not needed 12:42:31 <andythenorth> even â â gets %20 but thatâs ugly :P 12:42:45 <andythenorth> Alberth: there is rice growing in africa it seems :) 12:44:25 <Zuu> Alberth: Oh, you are not in #openttd.dev. I posted a filter patch there. :-) 12:44:27 <andythenorth> I think Iâll save rice, but it should be included in FIRS 12:45:28 <andythenorth> hmm too many stockyards 12:45:33 <andythenorth> theyâre everywhere 12:45:37 <andythenorth> people should eat less meat 12:46:18 <Zuu> http://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd.dev&date=1447459200 12:47:07 <Zuu> If you are interested to read it. 12:53:24 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x4d011fcb.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 12:57:19 *** DDR [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:57:34 *** DDR_ [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:00:53 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-62-dynamic.252-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 13:01:13 <Wolf01> hi 13:01:49 <Alberth> o/ 13:04:53 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:06:31 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r27443 trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp (2015-11-14 14:06:26 +0100 ) 13:06:32 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Negoation in comment was wrong. 13:08:47 <Wolf01> "negoation" is wrong too 13:14:08 <Wolf01> pfff each time i open steam it needs to update almost 6 games :| 13:15:42 <Alberth> luckily it only updates 5.9 games then :) 13:15:50 <andythenorth> I canât use steam 13:15:59 <andythenorth> Iâd rather just not buy games than suffer steam 13:15:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you can tell it to only update on start of the game... 13:16:08 <Wolf01> 8 games today 13:16:15 <andythenorth> I donât want to enter my password just to play a game 13:16:19 <andythenorth> I donât want forced updates 13:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i hardly have 8 games in total... 13:16:27 <Wolf01> pfff and when i want to play a game i need to wait for it to update? 13:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> or you could have just steam always running, and never notice the updates until they are already done :p 13:17:22 <Wolf01> i only have 322 (200 installed) and about 120 from bundles to redeem 13:18:20 <Wolf01> also let's play a game, help me to not buy fallout 4 before xmas, __ln__ could play on enemy side if he wants 13:18:36 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i actually have 11 games, 2 of which were free and i never even installed/started 13:19:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no interest in fallout... 13:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i actually got 3 games for free, but one of them i really played :p 13:19:39 <Wolf01> neither do one of my personalities, but the other 2 want it, so i need support 13:20:02 <Eddi|zuHause> 2 vs. 1 is unfair. 13:20:30 <Wolf01> eh, i might need to develop another one personality, but 3 is the perfect number 13:21:24 <Alberth> 1, 2, 3 who needs any other number :) 13:21:39 <Wolf01> one of them is "buy it yesterday!", one "wait at least until xmas" and the last one "no, don't buy it, you'll en up playing it for a ween non stop" 13:21:53 <Wolf01> *end up 13:22:01 <Wolf01> *week 13:22:19 <Wolf01> they are again taking control of my hands at the same time 13:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> just one week? 13:22:27 <Wolf01> 24/7 13:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause> just one week? 13:22:40 <Alberth> :) 13:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 24*7 13:22:50 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 168 13:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a really healthy 1300 hours on Europa Universalis IV 13:23:27 <Wolf01> no, i still play skyrim, fallut 3/new vegas, i have about 400 hours build up for each of them 13:23:28 <Alberth> food + coffee at least an hour / day 13:24:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and i never actually played through a full game 13:24:55 <Wolf01> eh, i'll try to finish at least the main story line for every game 13:26:00 <Wolf01> i played starcraft LotV for the last 4 days and finished the campaign in 2 days 13:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there technically isn't a story in Europa Universalis IV. nor is there really a victory condition. but the game goes from 1444 to 1821 or something 13:28:02 <Eddi|zuHause> latest i got so far was 1720-ish 13:28:50 <Eddi|zuHause> then it kinda got out of hand as i was winning wars faster than i could integrate territory... 13:29:24 <Zuu> Wolf01: Sorry to confuse you 13:31:23 <Wolf01> np, just pointed out the evidence, one of my personalities is grammar nazi capt. obvious 13:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to put something intentionally misspelled here, but my brain just refuses... 13:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause> take this instead ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45iTjeL-X9I 13:38:23 <Wolf01> ahah 13:38:53 <frosch123> did you watch that for 6 hours? 13:39:28 <Eddi|zuHause> not really... 13:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> at least, not in one piece 13:40:10 <Eddi|zuHause> you can watch the individual episodes as well ;) 13:40:58 <Wolf01> i think i've seen 2 or 3 episodes, but that 6 hours straight is really too much :P 13:41:45 <Wolf01> also, anime time, i need to see the last 7 episodes 13:42:30 <Wolf01> uhm, no only 5 13:45:03 <argoneus> does anyone here want to help me with a group project at uni 13:45:11 <argoneus> ;_; 13:46:04 <Zuu> Wolf01: I was unsure about the spelling so I only googled it to see that it was not misspelled, but forgot to check I got the right word. :-) 13:46:23 <Wolf01> i googled it too XD 13:46:29 <Alberth> you're looking for a group project? 13:46:46 <argoneus> Alberth: no I already have one 13:46:52 <argoneus> but my teammates are giving me a headache 13:47:08 <Alberth> and you think we are any better :p 13:47:09 <Wolf01> on first sight i was "oh a new english word i didn't know" 13:47:15 <argoneus> Alberth: im pretty sure 13:47:22 <argoneus> one of them got a git merge conflict 13:47:28 <argoneus> and he decided to discard all my code 13:47:29 <Alberth> \o/ 13:47:36 <argoneus> and rebased the repo 13:47:47 <argoneus> and just now 13:47:49 <argoneus> another guy pushed this code 13:47:53 <argoneus> self.max_thread_count = multiprocessing.cpu_count() 13:48:02 <argoneus> help 13:48:37 <Alberth> you're not making much sense to me, sorry 13:48:55 <argoneus> they think you can only have as many threads as you have cpus 13:49:00 <argoneus> or cpu cores, or logical cpus, w/e 13:49:03 <argoneus> ;_; 13:49:18 <Alberth> if it's a cpu bound problem, it makes sense 13:49:35 <frosch123> i need a mirror for the graphviz docs 13:49:47 <frosch123> somehow the server is down every second day 13:49:58 <frosch123> hmm, oh, let's use the manpages 13:50:36 <Alberth> :) 13:51:27 <Alberth> my package manager doesn't have graphviz-docs, maybe you have such a package? 13:51:38 *** and [~oftc-webi@157-157-201-195.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #openttd 13:51:41 <frosch123> "man dot" works for me 13:52:32 *** and [~oftc-webi@157-157-201-195.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [] 13:52:45 <andythenorth> argoneus: whoâs project lead? :P 13:52:52 <andythenorth> and then you have politics also :P 13:53:02 <argoneus> frosch123: you can use the magic of internet 13:53:06 <argoneus> http://web.archive.org/web/20150905053600/http://www.graphviz.org/Documentation.php 13:53:31 <argoneus> andythenorth: we are 6, the project lead is another dude, not me 13:53:40 <argoneus> hes actually decent but hes a huge idea guy 13:53:46 <andythenorth> are you using feature branches? 13:53:54 <argoneus> we agreed to use them 13:53:57 <argoneus> but no one bothers 13:54:04 <andythenorth> discarding code for a merge conflict is daft 13:54:21 <andythenorth> otoh, you all have to learn this the hard way 13:54:31 <Eddi|zuHause> make a merge war? 13:54:38 <argoneus> there was no war 13:54:41 <argoneus> he just rebased the repo 13:54:43 <andythenorth> it has taken me 20 years to be approximately competent 13:54:47 <argoneus> it's like my code never existed 13:54:49 <argoneus> it was really awkward 13:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so? you just push again :p 13:54:54 <argoneus> copypasting it from the commit 13:55:00 <argoneus> I pulled first 13:55:05 <andythenorth> so you had commits? 13:55:10 <argoneus> on the website yes 13:55:10 <andythenorth> so go back to that rev 13:55:18 <argoneus> but in the repo itself the commit seemed to be gone 13:55:22 <argoneus> not sure how that works 13:55:25 <argoneus> gitlab showed them properly 13:55:33 <argoneus> but there was no commit deleting my code 13:55:38 <argoneus> it just disappeared into the abyss somehow 13:55:51 <andythenorth> only if heâs rewritten history afaik 13:55:58 <andythenorth> which is daft, dangerous, hostile and stupid 13:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it just means it's somewhere, but not a parent of the current commit 13:56:02 <andythenorth> and rarely works 13:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like an unnamed branch 13:56:23 <argoneus> I just copypasted the files from the web commit 13:56:31 <andythenorth> ? 13:56:34 <argoneus> im not a git wizard myself, would probably break things 13:56:40 <argoneus> at least I know not to rewrite history 13:56:45 <andythenorth> how can you see web commits, but not local? 13:56:56 <argoneus> i have no idea 13:56:59 <argoneus> gitlab showed them linearly 13:57:05 <argoneus> but in my repo I couldn't find my commit 13:57:14 <Eddi|zuHause> use the hash, luke. 13:57:34 <argoneus> it wasn't that much of a problem 13:57:37 <argoneus> I commit every like 20 lines 13:57:41 <argoneus> but it was annoying 13:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so, why are you talking to us, instead of to him? 13:57:58 <Alberth> git is quite dangerous 13:58:03 <andythenorth> nah 13:58:06 <argoneus> sorry then 13:58:17 <andythenorth> some people using git are quite dangerous 13:58:17 <andythenorth> :) 13:58:45 <Alberth> git is fine, just don't go near it :p 14:00:00 <Alberth> but yeah, argoneus, as Eddi said, you can talk to us, but it doesn't actually solve much 14:00:39 <Alberth> except telling other about your woes may make you feel better :) 14:02:07 <andythenorth> I could send him peopleware 14:02:26 <andythenorth> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-Tom-DeMarco/dp/0321934113/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447509736&sr=8-1&keywords=peopleware 14:02:34 <andythenorth> most software project problems are people problems 14:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause> most people problems are not solved by throwing more software at it 14:03:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: what next? 14:03:46 <frosch123> https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/firs/diffs/20_graph.diff <- commit? 14:03:54 <frosch123> does it work for you? 14:04:18 <frosch123> i just fixed some links and hoover tooltips 14:04:29 <frosch123> don't know more bugs :) 14:06:33 <andythenorth> frosch123: just push it, Iâll pull :) 14:06:46 <frosch123> let's break devzone :) 14:06:53 <andythenorth> yair! 14:06:57 <andythenorth> why not! 14:09:40 <frosch123> let's see :) 14:10:19 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 14:13:44 <frosch123> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html <- he, seems to work out of the box :) 14:14:22 <Wolf01> nice 14:16:28 <andythenorth> he 14:16:40 <andythenorth> Iâll tweak colours and find a way to add âclick for largerâ or such 14:16:49 <andythenorth> biab 14:17:51 <Eearslya> Understanding the OTTD codebase has been..quite a challenge so far; especially with no experience with vectors.. 14:19:39 <Alberth> just a glorified array :) 14:20:27 *** fjb [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 14:21:08 <Eearslya> Yeah, a lot of C++ things are tripping me up here and there; I've had plenty of experience with plain C, but C++ has so many new features.. 14:21:40 <Wolf01> i instead don't understand sprite batches and graphics devices very well 14:21:55 <Alberth> wait until you see a proper c++11 program :p 14:22:26 <Eearslya> Struct inheritance and initialization had me googling for an hour at least 14:23:04 <Alberth> it may be faster to read a c++ book :) 14:23:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well, struct and class is really the same thing 14:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the only difference is public/private if neither is specified 14:24:59 <Wolf01> struct need to be fully initialized via constructor or default values, iirc 14:25:17 <Eearslya> See, I am tempted to read a C++ tutorial or something of the like, but..I'm mainly worried it's going to be 75% things I already know XD 14:25:33 <argoneus> Eearslya: learn java or C# or another language that doesn't butcher OO 14:25:34 <Eearslya> Unless you know of a book for C++ that's specifically targeted to those already proficient in C.. 14:25:36 <argoneus> OOP* 14:25:55 <argoneus> it will help you understand things with an easier syntax 14:25:56 <Eearslya> I'm decent with Java, I did liken the inheritence to Java's 'extend' pretty quickly 14:26:10 <argoneus> C++ has some magic stuff like multiple inheritance 14:26:13 <argoneus> which may or may not be useful 14:26:24 <argoneus> depends who you ask 14:26:32 <argoneus> also templates are the best and worst feature of C++ 14:26:34 <Eearslya> Unlike Java, which has one inheritance and multiple..implements. Whatever you'd call those. 14:28:14 <argoneus> I can't remember the last time I needed more than one inheritance 14:29:22 <Eearslya> Are 'virtual' functions essentially the same as 'abstract'? 14:29:45 <argoneus> not really 14:29:46 <Alberth> no, "virtual" is what java does by default 14:29:56 <argoneus> virtual means you may override the function iirc 14:30:02 <argoneus> abstract means you have to override it 14:30:04 <Alberth> ie you can re-implement the method in a derived class 14:30:38 <argoneus> which reminds me how horrible C++ is 14:30:49 <argoneus> you want an abstract class? 14:30:49 <Alberth> abstract is class X { void f() = 0 ; }; <-- the "=0" means the function exists, but not in this class 14:30:56 <argoneus> ^ 14:31:34 <argoneus> Alberth: add a virtual there 14:31:38 <argoneus> virtual void f() = 0 14:31:45 <argoneus> else... not sure what happens actually 14:31:45 <Alberth> which like java also means you cannot instantiate X 14:31:54 <argoneus> I think that won't even compile 14:32:00 <Alberth> hmm, good point 14:32:15 <Alberth> I think it would compile just be very non-usable :p 14:32:17 <Eearslya> Oh boy. Maybe I really should try and find some reading material.. 14:32:25 <argoneus> you should learn a good language 14:32:35 <argoneus> that isn't plagued by 30 year old philosophies and deprecated standard libraries 14:32:38 <Eearslya> C and Java don't count? 14:32:52 <argoneus> C won't help you understand object oriented things 14:32:54 <Alberth> argoneus: please, you made that point a few times now, stop it now 14:32:54 <argoneus> which you seem to struggle with 14:33:30 <Eearslya> Well, no, I'm fine with OOP; I was just confused with C++'s syntax of inheritance 14:33:34 <Alberth> argoneus: read c++11 or c++14 14:33:36 <argoneus> Alberth: I just don't get the idea of schools and stuff forcing C++ onto students 14:33:51 <argoneus> when it's a huge mess 14:34:00 <argoneus> e.g. in school we were taught about pointers in C++ 14:34:07 <argoneus> thing is, once you go into C++11, suddenly raw pointers are evil 14:34:11 <argoneus> unless they are non-owning 14:34:22 <argoneus> it's just 14:34:22 <argoneus> blah 14:34:28 <Alberth> most schools have no clue about languages 14:34:37 <Alberth> but that doesn't mean the language itself is bad 14:34:38 <argoneus> better learn a modern language imo 14:34:42 <argoneus> the language isn't bad 14:34:46 <argoneus> but it lets you do a LOT of bad things 14:34:49 <argoneus> without warning you 14:34:51 <Alberth> it just means schools need to fix their knowledge 14:35:03 <Alberth> like git, and anything else powerful 14:35:20 <argoneus> thing is 14:35:26 <argoneus> with C++ there's like 5 different ways to do everything 14:35:29 <argoneus> and 4 of them are frowned upon 14:35:32 <Eearslya> I don't think C++ is going anywhere for a long time 14:35:51 <argoneus> C++ is a good language that can do most everything you want 14:35:54 <argoneus> that's also the problem with it :D 14:36:11 <Alberth> argoneus: wrong, the philosophy is not to force people into a choice, and different options are good for different use cases 14:36:13 <Wolf01> i never understood pointers vs dots 14:36:21 <argoneus> dots? 14:36:29 <argoneus> you mean a->val vs a.val? 14:36:33 <Wolf01> yes 14:36:42 <argoneus> well 14:36:46 <argoneus> one of them is *val and the other is val 14:36:52 <argoneus> er 14:36:54 <Wolf01> the compiler is smart enough to know when you need a reference or a value, why do you let it to the developer? 14:36:54 <argoneus> *a and the other is a 14:36:55 <argoneus> sorry 14:37:10 <Alberth> Wolf01: I agree, it seems a weird thing not to handle automatically 14:37:37 <argoneus> from what I've seen on ##c++ 14:37:43 <Alberth> although with operator overloading, it may get messy 14:37:45 <Wolf01> ok, other languages have it too, but is used at function argument level 14:37:48 <argoneus> the latest philosophy seems to do "try to avoid pointers, the stack is large enough" 14:37:49 <Alberth> eg iterators 14:38:27 <argoneus> ugh 14:38:28 <argoneus> iterators 14:38:34 <Eearslya> How on earth are you expected to avoid pointers entirely? 14:39:02 <argoneus> for (std::vector<MyClass>::const_iterator it = myvec.begin(); it != myvec.end(); it++) { } 14:39:11 <argoneus> THANKS BJARNE 14:39:20 <Alberth> for (auto v : myvec) 14:39:24 <argoneus> yeah 14:39:29 <argoneus> luckily 14:39:33 <Alberth> ^ that's c++11 14:39:35 <argoneus> that's c++11 though 14:40:17 <Alberth> so please don't throw in obsolete constructs as argument against the language 14:40:44 <argoneus> iirc there've been arguments against "auto" as wel 14:40:44 <argoneus> l 14:40:52 <argoneus> when it first came out 14:41:07 <argoneus> that it's hard to tell what it really is 14:41:16 <argoneus> there's also the auto& and auto&& magic and that kind of stuff 14:41:25 <Alberth> nothing that stops you from not using it 14:43:26 <argoneus> as I said 14:43:30 <argoneus> the language is not bad 14:43:38 <argoneus> but there's way too many options for a new programmer imo 14:43:53 <argoneus> I see hacky workarounds at uni all the time 14:43:59 <argoneus> things that just should not work but they do 14:44:05 <argoneus> because they forced c++ to make it work 14:44:09 <Alberth> yep, you don't want to use it as first language 14:44:35 <argoneus> I never meant to discourage Eearslya from learning C++ 14:44:39 <Eearslya> My first language was..Perl. 14:44:41 <argoneus> I just wanted him to get a good base in a "modern" language 14:44:42 <argoneus> OUCH 14:45:09 <argoneus> Eearslya: remember how I said that C++ lets you do nasty things? 14:45:16 <argoneus> well, in perl you can do nasty things, with even nastier syntax! :D 14:45:34 <Alberth> like he doesn't know :p 14:45:38 <Eearslya> I have done C++ before, but..Usually when I've done C++ it's been extremely basic, I've never gotten into vectors, inheritances, or anything like that 14:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> in perl, you can't do non-nasty things :p 14:46:14 <Eearslya> It also doesn't help, trying to understand OTTD that I'm swimming around in a codebase and I don't know where anything is XD 14:46:47 <Alberth> ag or grep is your friend :) 14:46:50 <argoneus> I just think every programmer should start with C 14:46:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd argue that noone in here actually knows where EVERYTHING is 14:46:59 <argoneus> and then proceed with something like C# or Java or whatever 14:47:03 <argoneus> before getting into C++ 14:47:11 <argoneus> to get a solid base 14:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i think no programmer should start with C 14:47:34 <andythenorth> frosch123: eh how about doing something on Busy Bee next? o_O 14:47:41 <andythenorth> it is a playground for GS ideas 14:47:46 <argoneus> C teaches you to realize "oh I can't just flail memory around" 14:47:51 <Alberth> Eddi: ha, I don't even know what everything contains exactly :p 14:48:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: what to visualise in busybee using graphviz? :p 14:48:06 <argoneus> because then you open java code 14:48:10 <argoneus> and see new() everywhere on everything 14:48:12 <Alberth> argoneus: euhm, something about pointers being complicated.....? 14:48:14 <andythenorth> frosch123: goals :P 14:48:21 <Eearslya> C is..segfault city, in my experience. 14:48:32 <frosch123> hmm, i don't think i played a single game with busybee 14:48:35 <argoneus> shouldn't every good programmer know how pointers work? 14:48:37 <frosch123> so, i have no idea about it :p 14:48:43 <andythenorth> busybee has a bug currently :P 14:48:44 <argoneus> like every high level language uses pointers transparently 14:48:46 <andythenorth> which gets annoying fast 14:49:00 <Alberth> it's more a lack in features :p 14:49:02 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no programmer, good or otherwise, needs to know what pointers are 14:49:12 <argoneus> in java you pass by reference, shouldn't a java programmer know what a reference is? 14:49:14 <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7521 14:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no. 14:49:32 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: especially not a beginner coder 14:49:58 <Alberth> well, in java, he should, as primitive types and non-primitive types are different 14:50:25 <andythenorth> hmm, I need graphviz locally now 14:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that is one of the weirdest things in java, yes. 14:50:50 <argoneus> what do you classify as a beginner coder? 14:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> but definitely pretty low on the C-scale of weird language constructs 14:50:57 <argoneus> not understanding loops for example? 14:51:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: i remember my suggestion back then: plan goals ahead and only announce them if they have not been completed after 6 monhts 14:51:14 <argoneus> I've been programming for like 4 years and I still feel like a beginner 14:51:22 <andythenorth> that has quite some latency :) 14:51:38 <andythenorth> it means min. 6 month wait for a new goal after winning one, no? 14:52:15 <andythenorth> ach bollocks 14:52:22 <andythenorth> I didnât upgrade macports when I last upgraded OS X 14:52:24 <andythenorth> meh 14:52:27 <frosch123> you can keep a stockpile ahead 14:52:40 <andythenorth> now my afternoon will be spent getting graphviz :D 14:53:06 <frosch123> download the source and build yourself? :p 14:53:18 <andythenorth> I should fix macports anyway 14:54:07 <andythenorth> I hate that I have to get macports from sourceforge, and then use sudo with it 14:54:08 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: a beginner, in this context, would be someone who does not know the effects that a change will have ahead of time, a trial-and-error type approach. 14:54:31 <andythenorth> what could be more evil than giving a sudo password to a binary from sourceforge? 14:54:44 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: doesn't fixing a segfault teach you a lot though? 14:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: and C is one of the worst places you would do trial-and-error programming 14:55:05 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: no, because "Segfault" is not telling you what's wrong. 14:55:19 <argoneus> fair point 14:55:23 <argoneus> C errors are........not very good 14:55:59 <frosch123> http://www.graphviz.org/Download_macos.php <- andythenorth: are those useful? 14:56:02 <Alberth> nah, assembly language without knowing what you're doing is worse :p 14:56:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: nah, theyâre old :) 14:59:21 * andythenorth watches macports 14:59:53 <Eearslya> I've been wanting to try and contribute to OTTD which is why I'm trying to familiarize with the codebase..I think I found a good 'things in C++ not in C' page to read, too 15:01:04 <Zuu> I think it shouldn't be so hard to find a C++ book for C programmers. Both languages are fairly common still today and have a long history. And sure there should be web pages on the subject too as you found out. 15:01:43 <Eearslya> Currently reading this: http://www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/cppcen.html 15:02:47 <argoneus> this reminds me 15:02:50 <argoneus> does ottd even use C++11? 15:03:19 <Zuu> OpenTTD does compile in Visual Studio 2008, so no features not in that compiler are used. 15:03:30 * andythenorth has wondered for a long time about function overloading 15:03:34 <andythenorth> and why that would be sane 15:03:35 <frosch123> we fixed the stuff that failed in c++11 15:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause> function overloading makes sense in polymorphic contexts, or templates. 15:05:02 <Zuu> Or for typed variable parameter count. 15:05:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: think of it as a ways to imitate duck typing :p 15:05:23 <andythenorth> ok 15:05:26 <andythenorth> that works 15:06:03 <frosch123> just that it only works for known types of ducks :p 15:07:36 <andythenorth> hmm 15:07:45 <andythenorth> subversion port takes a while to arrive :P 15:09:24 <Zuu> And svn is picky about using -R instead of -r for recursive. :-) 15:11:43 <andythenorth> meh ports also locks, can only run one install at once 15:11:51 *** rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 15:30:53 <andythenorth> ach, canât get openttd to find lzma 15:30:59 <andythenorth> or I donât have a valid lzma port 15:32:24 <andythenorth> it also canât find zlib or libiculx 15:32:30 <andythenorth> which I have just installed :P 15:41:41 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 15:41:43 <drac_boy> hi 15:43:45 <andythenorth> ha ha Iâve broken everything 15:43:57 * drac_boy hands andy a lot of gremlins? :P 15:44:05 <andythenorth> canât build newgrfs, openttd, nor any work stuff 15:44:11 <andythenorth> python and everything else is now broken 15:45:13 <drac_boy> I see 15:45:19 <drac_boy> any good news otherwise? 15:48:08 <Alberth> it's saturday? 15:48:24 <drac_boy> heh I dunno if thats good news to andy :) 15:49:13 <andythenorth> hmm openttd compiles again now 15:49:38 <andythenorth> I gave up trying to install âonly needed portsâ and just restored the old ones 15:52:52 *** Bluelight [~chatzilla@84.48.176.134] has joined #openttd 15:57:18 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r27444 trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp (2015-11-14 16:57:15 +0100 ) 15:57:19 <DorpsGek> -Add: When viewing online content of a particular type, hide content of other types unless they have been (auto)selected for download. 16:01:25 <andythenorth> :) 16:08:13 <drac_boy> anyway I think I'm going off for a bit for no 16:08:16 <drac_boy> now* 16:08:18 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [] 16:12:12 <Eddi|zuHause> ... silicoid farmers, i think i play this game wrong :p 16:16:38 <Eearslya> Can I get voiced in #openttd.dev? 16:18:09 <frosch123> Eearslya: but you can also just talk here 16:18:19 <frosch123> .dev is only needed when eddi is spamming this channel 16:19:08 <frosch123> there is noone in .dev who isn't here as well 16:23:20 <Eearslya> True. Well, I was looking at trying to fix my first bug (6389) and I'm slightly confused; there's a buffer for the name, 32 characters wide, but the name in the bug report gets cut off at 29; So, minus one for the null terminator, are there 2 bytes of control characters or something of the like? 16:34:05 <andythenorth> grr 16:34:41 <V453000> Yo 16:34:44 <andythenorth> most things now have the ports they need, except buildout.python will no longer build, and thatâs the only sane way to get python on a mac :( 16:34:56 <andythenorth> also newgrf makefiles are sulking 16:36:27 <frosch123> Eearslya: no idea, maybe some utf8 magic? 16:36:37 <frosch123> i.e. do some letter take more than a byte? 16:36:52 <Eearslya> Is there any reason we can't just bump that to, say, 48? Wouldn't break any compatibility? 16:36:52 <frosch123> anyway, mind that the server uses the same structure 16:37:03 <Eearslya> Would that* 16:37:05 <frosch123> so, changing it in the client won't make it work :p 16:37:21 <andythenorth> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=8RVZ1USS 16:37:26 <andythenorth> and more of those 16:38:16 <andythenorth> ach no mercurial installed 16:38:18 <andythenorth> that might solve that 16:38:31 <Eearslya> ..Is the server actually built seperately? I'm looking at network/core/tcp_content.h..Is that not shared? 16:40:35 <frosch123> ottd uses the same packet type for both udp and tcp packages 16:40:42 <frosch123> udp packages are severely limited in size 16:40:50 <frosch123> unfortunaltely ottd caries that over to tcp 16:41:05 <frosch123> i started a patch to separate that, but didn't finish it :p 16:41:39 <frosch123> Eearslya: the server is at svn://svn.openttd.org/extra/masterserver_updater 16:41:50 <Eearslya> So this is more of a 'feature-not-bug' issue? 16:41:55 <frosch123> the stuff in the "core" directory is shared via svn:external 16:42:18 <frosch123> Eearslya: it's a limitation of the current implementation :) 16:43:19 <frosch123> you can try to explore where the other 3 character are though 16:43:20 <Eearslya> Welp, guess I should find another bug then! 16:43:31 <frosch123> i don't know where the other 3 bytes are used 16:43:49 <Eearslya> Well, assuming it's null-terminated (which it might not be, since it's explicity 32 bytes), there's 2 I have to look for 16:44:21 <Eearslya> I should switch to my PC, bug-searching is horrible without an IDE to jump to declarations and such. 16:44:53 <frosch123> but if the server already truncates it, you will have a hard time to debug that :p 16:45:10 <Eearslya> Here's hoping it doesn't. XD 16:45:52 <Zuu> You could still try to find out why the sever truncates it? 16:45:59 <Zuu> (if it dose) 16:46:04 <Zuu> does* 16:47:25 <Eearslya> Well, first thing I'm gonna try is printing out the string byte-by-byte on client side, see if anything is off 16:48:14 <Eearslya> If the client-side string is -actually- truncated at 29 bytes, well..Then I'll have to dig into the server code. 16:48:19 <Zuu> The unique_id of that content is 3841 btw 16:49:00 <Zuu> So all you need is a conditional breakpoint in network_content.cpp on line 65-ish to figure out what is received from the server. :-) 16:50:00 <Zuu> But maybe I shouldn't spoil your debugging because I started on the same bug before reading that you did as well. :-) 16:50:08 <Eearslya> Can MSVC do breakpoints? I've never really used it.. XD 16:50:32 <Zuu> MSVC can do that. I use 2008 edition for OpenTTD. 2015 got even more features and a black theme. 16:51:07 <Eearslya> Love dark themes. 16:51:17 <Zuu> You just click in the left margin in the code editor to create a breakpoint. Then right click to set a condition. 16:52:28 <Zuu> Mind that on some IDEs breakpoints with condition are sloooow, so altering the code to have a compiled if-statement with some dummy code to break at may greatly improve the performance. Not sure how good/bad visual studio is on this matter. Probably not as bad as others. :-) 16:52:54 <Eearslya> Welp, we're about to find out! 16:53:13 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 16:53:16 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 16:55:00 <Eearslya> ..Well, that was a pretty easy open-and-shut case. 16:55:23 <Eearslya> They've got some strange UTF-8 apostrophe in the name 16:55:56 <Eearslya> That would account for 2 more bytes than it should 16:58:29 <Zuu> The bananas web interface have maxlength="32" on the name <input>. While I haven't checked the django backend validator, it likely count that UTF-8 character as a single character. 17:00:00 <Eearslya> Which, of course, explains the discrepancy 17:00:14 <Eearslya> Welp, still need to find another bug, then! 17:00:16 <Zuu> Eearslya: If you like to continue your bug hunt experience, please post your findings to the issue on flyspray. 17:02:21 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 17:02:37 <Eearslya> Odd, Flyspray doesn't like my login. Is there a delay between registering and the usernames synchronizing across the services? 17:03:04 <frosch123> no, but you need the confirmation mail 17:03:14 <Eearslya> I did that 17:03:29 <frosch123> also, where did you register? :p 17:03:36 <frosch123> for example forums are separate 17:03:38 <Eearslya> account.openttd.org, about 5 minutes ago 17:03:47 <frosch123> that one should be fine 17:04:00 <Eearslya> Flyspray disagrees 17:04:20 <Zuu> Eearslya: Can you log in to other services? Eg. banans, wiki etc? 17:04:33 <andythenorth> ha ha, graphviz works now 17:04:48 <Zuu> bananas* 17:04:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: i hope the rest did not stop due to that :) 17:05:28 <Eearslya> Yep; bananas and wiki work fine 17:05:47 <andythenorth> frosch123: well, I needed to update all of macports :P 17:06:12 <frosch123> so you will only notice during the next week, that half of everything broke :) 17:06:37 <Eearslya> I wonder if my password has characters Flyspray doesn't like; I just threw in a password from Keepass 17:08:20 <Eearslya> ..Nope, didn't fix it. Odd. 17:13:00 <andythenorth> ho my FIRS repo is broken after installing mercurial 17:13:19 <andythenorth> it reports changed files on some paths, but refuses to recognise those paths for commits 17:15:04 <Eearslya> ..Ah. That would explain it. FlySpray has a password length max of 30. 17:18:42 <andythenorth> well 17:18:51 <andythenorth> rm -r * and then revert :P 17:18:56 <andythenorth> repo fixed 17:19:25 <Eearslya> There, finally made my comment XP 17:20:06 <Zuu> Great 17:20:55 * Zuu tries to understand #6378. 17:22:04 <Eearslya> That is..a lot of math. 17:22:59 <Zuu> The code blocks (as in Markdown code blocks) are not really math. But it is a lot of text and reasoning in that issue. 17:23:30 <Eearslya> They did attach their own patch for the issue apparently 17:25:19 <andythenorth> frosch123: so the cargoflow graph colours are hard-coded in the template? :) 17:25:36 <frosch123> yes, i derive them from the life_type 17:25:48 <frosch123> also supply cargo ids are specified at the top 17:26:51 <andythenorth> I am going to try and use css-for-svg 17:26:56 <andythenorth> I want to learn it, for other reasons 17:27:17 * andythenorth wonders if raphael has a linkgraph layout algorithm :P http://raphaeljs.com 17:28:08 *** Bluelight [~chatzilla@84.48.176.134] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 42.0/20151029151421]] 17:28:12 <Zuu> I made a web game where I used svg and angular directives to render the game screen. Didn't use of css for svg there though. As the whole svg was inline in the html template and parameterized by angular. 17:29:58 <Zuu> https://github.com/Leffe108/Navennni/blob/master/www/templates/game.html 17:31:10 <Eearslya> Man, there's really not a lot of bugs to take on practically.. 17:31:27 <andythenorth> no :) 17:31:55 <andythenorth> the game is relatively stable, last time I looked in flyspray, itâs edge cases and hard-to-repro stuff, or platform-specific :) 17:32:27 <Eearslya> Curse the stability! 17:32:34 <Wolf01> <Eearslya> ..Ah. That would explain it. FlySpray has a password length max of 30. <- i had that problem on a site, i used a ~60 characters long password and i wasn't able to login anymore, a password reset fixed it :D 17:32:35 <andythenorth> I rarely experience crashes or noticeable bugs in the game, despite changing newgrfs under it constantly 17:33:15 <Eearslya> Wolf01: Yeah, I reset mine to one at 30 characters, works fine now 17:35:43 <Wolf01> andythenorth, you can look at plantuml, it draws in svg too 17:35:55 * andythenorth looks 17:36:23 <Zuu> Eearslya: Have you seen the Todo list on the wiki? https://wiki.openttd.org/Todo_list 17:39:29 <andythenorth> you could go all out and try to patch a pony feature :P 17:40:14 <Zuu> Do you have any easy pony requests. Eg that doesn't involve GS -> NewGRF? ;-) 17:40:18 <Wolf01> like daylength or map rotation 17:45:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27445 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2015-11-14 18:45:11 +0100 ) 17:45:18 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:19 <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by SilverSurferZzZ 17:55:33 <andythenorth> ha ha 17:55:45 <andythenorth> ok so graphviz offers limited control over css styling 17:55:48 <andythenorth> but I shall defeat it 18:05:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: does .dot ever get rendered to anything but svg? Should I preserve the inline styling? 18:06:07 <frosch123> you can also render it to .png, if you want 18:06:16 <frosch123> but then it won't have links 18:06:27 <frosch123> though, actuall,y you can also generate an imagemap in addition to it 18:06:58 <frosch123> anyway, i think svg is better than png :) 18:07:13 <frosch123> don't bother with other formats 18:07:40 <andythenorth> I can remove the fillcolor switch then 18:08:17 <frosch123> can you select different css formats depending on life-type ? 18:08:36 <andythenorth> yeah 18:08:48 <andythenorth> I am doing it in a brute force way, but es 18:08:49 <frosch123> interesting :) 18:08:51 <andythenorth> yes * 18:09:22 <frosch123> haha, are you adding a post-processing step after the svg generation? :p 18:09:59 <andythenorth> not that brute force :o 18:10:05 <andythenorth> although it would work 18:10:12 <frosch123> ok, would likely be horrible :) 18:10:42 <andythenorth> pushed, itâs WIP 18:12:48 <frosch123> he, you are generating a css :p 18:13:23 <Alberth> andy generates everything, he'd generate the generator too if it was possible :) 18:14:31 <frosch123> oh, you made the organic ones red? 18:14:42 <frosch123> or only for testing? 18:15:09 <andythenorth> only testing 18:15:30 <andythenorth> Alberth: I am one step behind eddi, who does generate the templates iirc :P 18:15:53 <andythenorth> ok I can control text and shape colours, I am happy :) 18:16:05 <andythenorth> now I was going to pick colours from openttd palette for them :) 18:16:17 *** Defaultti [defaultti@lakka.kapsi.fi] has quit [Quit: Quitting.] 18:16:27 * andythenorth considers using map colour of industry, probably very very bad idea 18:16:30 <frosch123> does ottd have such light colours? 18:17:03 <frosch123> well, what information shall it represent? 18:17:24 <andythenorth> is a good question 18:17:45 <andythenorth> map colour will just be visual noise, no? 18:17:52 <frosch123> likely :) 18:17:54 <andythenorth> colour vomit, is what lego people call it 18:18:06 <frosch123> and half of it will have terrible font/bgcolor contrast 18:18:29 <andythenorth> font I can fix :) 18:18:32 <andythenorth> but yeah 18:18:37 <frosch123> currently it tells you to start with green or blue industries 18:18:45 <frosch123> and to somehow get violet cargos 18:19:12 <andythenorth> black for black holes? o_O 18:19:39 <frosch123> if anyone understands what black hole are :p 18:19:44 *** Defaultti [defaultti@lakka.kapsi.fi] has joined #openttd 18:19:49 <andythenorth> also agreed 18:19:56 <frosch123> i like the terms "primary industry", "secondary industry", "other" 18:20:04 <Alberth> things that suck up entire openttd? 18:20:55 <Alberth> but likely the player only cares about cargo he does need to transport rather than cargo he doesn't get :) 18:25:14 <andythenorth> bundles is slow to build FIRS :) 18:25:21 * andythenorth taps fingers 18:27:27 <andythenorth> frosch123: not happy yet, but thoughts? http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html 18:27:55 <frosch123> why do you want to distinguish organic and extractive? 18:28:36 <frosch123> if you want to distingiush farm/eng supplies, then fishing grounds will cause trouble :p 18:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm always confused for a short bit about "english supplies" 18:31:05 <andythenorth> I would prefer not to distinguish organic / extractive 18:31:14 <andythenorth> I did it because the switch was there :) 18:31:16 <andythenorth> no good reason 18:31:29 <frosch123> ok :) i set the same colour to both 18:31:54 <frosch123> i am not a big fan of the orange brown you used though 18:32:23 <frosch123> but black might indeed work for blackholes, if you go for white fonts 18:33:17 <frosch123> "black" and "white" are good choices for "other" 18:33:23 <frosch123> because they are not exactly colours 18:34:05 <Zuu> Hmm that full FIRS svg need a way to open in full browser size or so. Though you could do ctrl+'+' on desktop to zoom in far enough to be able to read it. 18:34:34 <frosch123> Zuu: if you open it in a separate tab, it is actually so big, than you cannot find anything :p 18:34:34 <Zuu> If made to cover my whole 24" screen it is almost readable. :-) 18:35:08 <frosch123> but at least you can ctrl+f a svg 18:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: right-click->open 18:35:31 <frosch123> or print it on a3 and put it into your bathroom 18:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a Civ5 techtree that came with the game. it was totally outdated on first patch... 18:36:23 <Zuu> In my browser, left clicking on individual items go to that industry. But it do have "show only this frame" in the right click menu to see only the graph in large size. 18:36:39 <frosch123> i made a civ1 techtree in ascii art, and printed in on a 9-needle printer 18:36:50 <andythenorth> I am going to find a way to show the svg zoomed, in lightbox or so 18:36:58 <andythenorth> havenât figured that out yet 18:37:49 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i never had the need for that. i could easily memorize the tree to get around the "copy protection" 18:37:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: I tried black for black hole btw, but it obscures the arrow heads :) 18:38:27 <frosch123> ok :) 18:48:32 * andythenorth lost in colour generators https://coolors.co/app/00560d-1c448c-882034-ccd0dc-cfe8ef 18:50:18 <andythenorth> front page of BBC News is super gloomy right now 18:50:54 <andythenorth> 5 out of 6 top stories are âdeadâ or âdiedâ :P 18:51:22 <frosch123> i like matching colours with their meaning 18:52:03 <frosch123> but maybe that is a stage of synesthesia 18:52:06 <andythenorth> ha 18:52:27 <andythenorth> feel free to make suggestions 18:53:00 <frosch123> primary -> green like a source of stuff; secondary -> orange like something busy; other -> blue like something that doesn't want to commit to anything 18:53:29 <frosch123> but dark violet (not purple) may also work instead of blue 18:54:18 <andythenorth> currently this http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html 18:55:12 <Alberth> bit dark 18:55:58 <andythenorth> yeah, I have bright screen 18:57:28 <Alberth> font is too big? 18:59:18 <Alberth> basic arctic is fine in the economies page, imho, if you load it in a separate tab it grows by 50% or so 19:00:36 <Alberth> good night 19:00:54 <andythenorth> bye 19:01:22 <Zuu> Good night Alberth 19:01:41 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 19:05:26 * andythenorth battles colour contrast validator also 19:17:28 <frosch123> passenger colour is missing 19:21:11 <Eearslya> Zuu: Updated March 5th..Oh, boy this oughtta be good 19:21:44 <andythenorth> frosch123: this is a bit ugly, but http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#arctic-basic 19:21:55 <andythenorth> the red is hard 19:22:13 <andythenorth> anything orange either fails colour contrast validator or looks like poo brown 19:22:48 *** DDR [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 19:23:00 *** DDR_ [~David@S0106602ad0773a2e.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 19:26:31 <frosch123> does #a04000 pass it? 19:28:44 <andythenorth> yes 19:29:05 <andythenorth> looks ok 19:29:08 <andythenorth> bit brown 19:29:19 <frosch123> i currently try primary 2a7234 (identic), secondary a04000, other 460058 19:29:58 <andythenorth> ha purple 19:30:06 * andythenorth has prejudice against purple :) 19:30:30 <Zuu> Lol, in my irc client you got purple nickname color :-) 19:31:12 <andythenorth> #482728 looks ok 19:31:43 <andythenorth> as does #1F2041 19:32:52 <andythenorth> or #42313F 19:33:16 <Eearslya> You're all purple to me. I kinda miss my colored nicks addon.. 19:35:14 <frosch123> ok, inmdustries look fine now 19:35:19 <frosch123> what for cargos? 19:35:27 <frosch123> i get the lightgrey is fine 19:35:30 <frosch123> what for supplies? 19:35:41 <frosch123> yellowish? 19:35:54 <frosch123> cyanish? 19:36:42 <andythenorth> do supplies need distinguishing? 19:38:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: also, remove the <tal:cargo condition="cargo.id not in doc_helper.get_cargoflow_banned_cargos()"> from the cargo colors :) 19:38:09 <andythenorth> done :) 19:38:36 <frosch123> supply cargos are special compared to others 19:38:40 <frosch123> you may want to look for them 19:38:46 <andythenorth> ok 19:38:54 <andythenorth> hmm pax still isnât taking the colours 19:38:57 * andythenorth will investigate 19:39:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: that's what i just said 19:39:25 <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p9gtfippl?/p9gtfippl <- that's the pax issue 19:40:02 <andythenorth> nah I did that already :) 19:40:07 <andythenorth> pax isnât getting an ID perhaps 19:40:15 * andythenorth is bathing 2x children right now :) 19:40:21 <frosch123> oh, right... 19:41:52 <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p2yg7h5zi?/p2yg7h5zi <- yes, it is missing the id, then it works 19:42:04 <frosch123> but the yellow i picked is a bid peey 19:44:21 <frosch123> aaeeee may work for supplies 19:48:46 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!] 19:56:41 * andythenorth pushes something 19:56:43 <andythenorth> and waits for bundles 19:56:56 <andythenorth> I am happy with the range of hues 19:57:01 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 19:57:02 <andythenorth> itâs a bit dark, but eh, contrast 19:57:16 <andythenorth> https://coolors.co/app/2a7234-a04000-4a5f6d-d8dbe2-c5e5f4 fwiw 19:57:34 <frosch123> doing industries with white texts and cargos with black is certainly something i wouldn't come up with, but it's a nice separation :) 19:58:00 <frosch123> and you hated the black outlines :p 19:58:07 <andythenorth> yeah 19:58:09 <andythenorth> standard 19:58:50 <andythenorth> now how to make them fit better? 19:59:14 <frosch123> the size? or still on colours? 19:59:54 <andythenorth> size 20:00:06 <andythenorth> and how to access a bigger version 20:00:57 * andythenorth wonders about edge formatting 20:01:17 <frosch123> easy, remove all economies except basic arctic 20:02:07 <andythenorth> ortho splines? o_O 20:02:09 * andythenorth wonders 20:02:37 <frosch123> i don't think it needs custom arrows :o 20:06:53 <frosch123> i would love mousewheel zooming, but no idea how to do that :p 20:07:47 <frosch123> http://www.jacklmoore.com/wheelzoom/ <- something like that? 20:08:29 <frosch123> would it work with svg? noone knows :) 20:09:23 <frosch123> http://mark-rolich.github.io/Magnifier.js/ <- or rahter something like that? 20:09:25 <andythenorth> ortho splines look better, but likely harder to use 20:10:00 <andythenorth> add âsplines=orthoâ to the digraph {} property declarations to see it... 20:10:19 <andythenorth> I was considering colouring edges per cargo 20:10:24 <andythenorth> but I canât think of a scheme 20:10:57 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 20:11:42 <frosch123> i don't think you can automate that in a good way 20:12:52 <andythenorth> technically I can control it, because I know the pairs, but I have NFI how to get a good result 20:14:03 <frosch123> i am not sure i like the ortho splines 20:14:31 <frosch123> they bunch up to a lot of parallel lines, which are hard to follow 20:14:43 <frosch123> they also cross more 20:15:06 <andythenorth> yeah 20:15:10 <frosch123> petrol in basic arctic for example 20:15:18 <andythenorth> they are superficially neater 20:15:20 <andythenorth> but not better 20:16:53 <frosch123> can we change the color of svg lines on hoover? :p 20:17:13 * andythenorth tests 20:17:56 <frosch123> may need postprocessing to add something to the polygons :p 20:17:58 <andythenorth> ha ha 20:18:09 <andythenorth> svg supports :hover 20:19:12 <frosch123> well, can we group all lines belonging to the same cargo, and hover highlight them? 20:20:55 <andythenorth> urgh 20:20:59 <andythenorth> maybe with scripting :) 20:21:21 <andythenorth> currently Iâve got one line at a time 20:21:57 <frosch123> how important do you consider the stuff being printable, i.e. not interactive? 20:22:45 <frosch123> hmm, but yeah, a plethora of different arrow colours would look ugly in any case 20:23:36 <Eearslya> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6390 Whee, my first patch 20:24:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: pull 20:24:44 <andythenorth> printable, dunno 20:25:26 <frosch123> Eearslya: i think you can turn those two if into a single one 20:25:57 <frosch123> bool is_sell_widget = widget == WID_D_SELL; 20:26:19 <frosch123> if (is_sell_widget != this->sell_hovered) { ... } 20:27:06 <Eearslya> I really, really wanted to condense them; I just didn't think of it that way 20:32:32 <Eearslya> There we go, updated 20:32:53 <Eearslya> I'm just not quite that creative with my if statements, the thought never occurred to me 20:33:26 <frosch123> think of it as 1. compute the target state, 2. check whether it differs from the current state 20:34:00 <frosch123> anyway, bbl 20:34:02 <Eearslya> Sound advice; I'll keep that in mind 20:36:10 <andythenorth> frosch123: Iâm quite happy with the colours now 20:36:27 <andythenorth> still dunno how to control dimensions though 20:37:24 <frosch123> ouch, don't you think the lines are a bit too strong 20:37:44 <frosch123> they dwarf the font size 20:37:53 <andythenorth> well 20:38:01 <frosch123> but yes, colours are nice 20:38:06 <frosch123> bbl 20:38:10 <andythenorth> I havenât pushed the one with smaller lines 20:38:48 * andythenorth looks for svg canvas size 21:25:21 *** gelignite [~gelignite@x4db6b34f.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 21:27:17 <frosch123> oh, the tooltip text on the arrows is not nice yet 21:29:10 <andythenorth> ha 21:29:15 <andythenorth> I just pushed a few things 21:29:46 <frosch123> hmm, should the tooltip just be empty, or should it say the cargo, name, or both source/dest? 21:30:15 <andythenorth> I find it low value :) 21:31:02 *** efess [~Efess@c-24-61-64-170.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:33:40 <frosch123> hmm, so you made the size so one cannot read any of them :p 21:33:50 <andythenorth> yes well 21:33:58 <andythenorth> that is a problem 21:35:07 <andythenorth> I donât know whether to use lightbox for larger, or redesign the page 21:35:21 <andythenorth> or try and co-erce graphviz to fit full FIRS in a sensible width 21:35:30 <andythenorth> I tried fighting graphviz for a bit 21:35:35 <frosch123> don't try :) 21:35:45 <frosch123> full firs is hopeless in that respect 21:35:53 <frosch123> *regard ? 21:36:22 <frosch123> i think lightbox could work 21:36:33 <frosch123> something that display it full screen, but without scrollbars 21:37:39 <andythenorth> lightbox tends to suck if you use the back button, as they are usually closed when going back 21:38:02 <andythenorth> full FIRS just isnât going to fit in my browser window :) 21:38:12 <andythenorth> I have 1280x960 or so 21:38:18 <frosch123> document.documentElement.requestFullscreen(); <- would that work? 21:38:28 <andythenorth> ha dunno 21:38:40 * andythenorth reads about it 21:39:07 <andythenorth> experimental :) 21:39:08 <andythenorth> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/requestFullScreen 21:39:12 <andythenorth> letâs experiment? o_O 21:39:29 <frosch123> supported since ff10, chrome15, so ages? 21:41:28 * andythenorth uses Safari, for reasons :P 21:41:42 <andythenorth> I have been up too long to fight javascript today :) 21:46:40 <frosch123> night then :) 21:47:00 * andythenorth must tidy the kitchen and so forth :) 21:47:14 <frosch123> damn, me too :/ 21:48:00 <andythenorth> eh, well, that was fun day of code 21:53:24 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 21:56:21 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 21:59:10 *** gelignite [~gelignite@x4db6b34f.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/1kso8Ta] 22:01:17 *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@modemcable027.125-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 22:01:19 <drac_boy> hi 22:02:19 <Eearslya> meow 22:02:31 <drac_boy> how're you? 22:02:54 <Eearslya> Bored and slightly sleepy 22:03:31 <frosch123> i commented your fs patch 22:03:46 <drac_boy> heh ok 22:03:57 <frosch123> not yours, if you have one :p 22:07:17 <Eearslya> Fixed that 22:11:45 <drac_boy> frosch so anyway..didn't we talk about something about trains the last time? (just asking) 22:13:14 <frosch123> Eearslya: i am greeping for where "sel" is reset 22:13:25 <frosch123> does it also need something in OnDragDrop? 22:13:42 <frosch123> drac_boy: trains? in this channel? 22:14:19 <drac_boy> yeah 22:15:04 <frosch123> i think i told you thatmodern trains in germany are powered by a mix of 40% coal, 20% nuclear, 20% wind and 20% solar power 22:16:19 <frosch123> you can buy a slighty more expensive ticket to claim that your seat is powered by the 40% solar/wind though 22:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> there's at least 5% water missing in there 22:16:43 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, and biomass and whatnot 22:16:51 <frosch123> i only guessed roughly 22:17:08 <frosch123> it's also hard to estimate with the nuclear imports from france 22:17:14 <frosch123> and the solar exports to italy 22:17:23 <__ln__> how did all the passengers fit into the train when it's already filled by a nuclear reactor, coal plant and wind turbines 22:17:26 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't french like 95% nuclear? 22:18:05 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but there is a big energy flow in europe that goes france -> germany -> austria -> italy 22:18:15 <drac_boy> at least switzerland can hold some claim to low pollution ratio of their power sources tho 22:19:17 <Eearslya> Hmm; sel isn't something I messed with, but I'll try and find it 22:19:20 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: if you discount one out of 400 nuclear power stations blowing up every 25 years... 22:19:25 <frosch123> __ln__: superior technology allows to put the power source into a different space continuum, which also lowers the weigt of the train 22:20:18 <frosch123> Eearslya: that var specifies which vehicle is being dragged, so it helps finding the places where dragging is started and stopped 22:20:28 <drac_boy> eddi..I'm thinking more of the hydro sources but hmm yeah I think they do have a bit of powerplant mix too tho 22:20:50 <Eearslya> frosch123: Looks like DepotClick, l512 22:21:17 <frosch123> that's where it starts 22:21:43 <frosch123> i think you need to set sell_hovered to false in all places that stop dragging 22:21:47 <frosch123> so whenever "sel" is reset 22:21:53 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: if you ever followed the news, the swiss have a problem with microfractures in their nuclear power stations, including somebody drilling holes in them to fix fire extinguishers 22:22:55 <drac_boy> <also had been looking at a few model ideas and still deciding to go with a small mountain layout since I can buy some Bemo trains dutyfree 22:23:01 <drac_boy> eddi..mm I see :-s 22:23:34 <Eddi|zuHause> also, like in all the rest of the world, they put the nuclear plants in geologically active areas (aka. earthquake zones)... because that's where the rivers are which are used for cooling, and where all the people live that need the power 22:24:52 <Eearslya> frosch123: You have any idea what OnTimeout is? It seems to raise the sell widget too for some reason 22:25:12 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: http://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/umwelt/klimaschutz.shtml <- actually, db has its own power plants and grid, so is less involved in the energy trade 22:25:28 <frosch123> Eearslya: it's a timer event 22:25:37 <frosch123> in ottd buttons do not react to mouse-up 22:25:52 * drac_boy still would like to try find if theres a non-brass source for africa or french trains too (and being in canada so hmm yeah, tricky) 22:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, i meant to bring that fact up 22:25:58 <frosch123> they trigger on mouse-down, and a timer raises the button shortly after 22:26:04 <drac_boy> trains=modeltrains* 22:26:34 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: did you play outpost2? 22:26:43 <Eddi|zuHause> no, only outpost1 22:26:48 <frosch123> there are two factions in that game, the smart ones and the stupid ones 22:27:09 <frosch123> the stupid ones always settle near to a vulcan, so in about every mission you have to evacuate from there and settle somewhere safe 22:27:49 <frosch123> i got outpost1&2 in a bundle, outpost1 is certainly the biggest scam experience i ever had 22:28:03 <frosch123> ("scam" is likely not the right term, but i cannot remember the right one just now) 22:28:15 <drac_boy> oh yeah I remember now..I was also talking about mixed trains (and a rather unusual uk photo I found too) 22:28:39 <Eearslya> frosch123: Well, logically, the only times that sel would be reset and sell_hovered is true are handled; It handles if the vehicle is actually sold, and if it's cancelled. Not sure where else it'd need it.. 22:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i was sort of addicted to outpost when it was new, but it certainly was extremely unfinished 22:28:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea where i got it from, though 22:29:47 <drac_boy> actually I had been wondering a bit about NS trains too but as I'm not sure if their sort of operations could be tailored to a model layout tho (these 2- and 3-car Mat** trainsets are easy to get ahold of 22:30:28 <drac_boy> frosch... maybe another word could be 'let down'? 22:31:14 <frosch123> drac_boy: nah, more criminal 22:31:19 <frosch123> like a completely unfinished game 22:31:25 <frosch123> that does not do at all what i claims 22:32:07 <frosch123> at the start of the game you are sent through an endless "web form" with hundreds of things to set and select 22:32:15 <frosch123> which has no influence on anything whatsoever 22:32:54 <frosch123> you can research many things in game, but all they do is "hey, you researched X" 22:34:31 <drac_boy> frosch ah I see...yeah sounds like a big duff :-s 22:35:53 <frosch123> i grew up in a small town, to buy video games one had to drive to a bigger city 22:36:01 <frosch123> but everytime i bought a video game, it was crap 22:37:15 <frosch123> on contrast, that stuff that you can trade in school was already prefiltered, so always better 22:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> yes ;) 22:38:07 <frosch123> so i learned at young age that pirated stuff is of better quality than bought stuff :) 22:38:17 <Eddi|zuHause> well, Transport Tycoon was good, as we knew that from the demo. but it was crazy expensive 22:39:24 <frosch123> Eearslya: i guess it does not matter. technically when dropping the vehicle on the button, OnDragDrop raises the button via HandleButtonClick, but sell_hovered remains true 22:39:52 <frosch123> however, sell_hovered is only evaluated in OnMouseDrag, and the next time you start dragging a vehicle, the mouse is no longer over the sell button 22:40:03 <frosch123> it would only matter if there was a hotkey to start dragging a vehicle :p 22:41:36 <Xaroth|Work> ok, which of you guys has been playing too much space engineers? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFWaH66wpIw 22:42:04 <frosch123> never heard of it 22:42:16 <frosch123> it has ttd music 22:42:32 <Xaroth|Work> space engineers is like minecraft 22:42:34 <Xaroth|Work> only in space 22:42:41 <Xaroth|Work> ... with spiders o_O 22:42:59 <frosch123> oh, is that the thing argoneus wanted to sell me yesterday? 22:43:25 <Xaroth|Work> dunno 22:43:39 <frosch123> he said something about minecraft in space with trains 22:44:02 <Xaroth|Work> then he probably meant this 22:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you mixed some stuff there :p 22:44:20 <frosch123> though iirc he said it was a minecraft mod 22:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> selective memory :p 22:45:05 <frosch123> Xaroth|Work: anyway, it looks more like train simulator 22:45:15 <frosch123> i like management/building games 22:45:33 <argoneus> frosch123: i meant minecarft with mods 22:45:34 <argoneus> minecraft 22:49:42 <drac_boy> oh yeah eddi you remember how I found that photo of a uk train that had the coaches in middle of consist instead of being shunted near either end? 22:54:58 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27446 trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp (2015-11-14 23:54:52 +0100 ) 22:55:00 <DorpsGek> -Feature: Lower the sell-vehicle button in the depot GUI while dragging a vehicle over it. (Eearslya) 22:55:10 <frosch123> Eearslya: thanks, nice feature :) 22:55:35 <Eddi|zuHause> now one can finally sell invisible vehicles :p 22:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well, not really, but the chance is a bit higher :p 22:57:41 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 22:58:46 <argoneus> space engineers is not a very good game 22:58:57 <argoneus> it's still an unoptimized alpha 22:59:44 <Xaroth|Work> argoneus: same goes for minecraft tbh :P 23:00:13 <frosch123> argoneus: time to preorder it? :p 23:01:14 <frosch123> i pondered starting a bullshit thread on the forums 23:01:35 <frosch123> with the question: how much would you pay to preorder ottd 2.0 23:02:14 <frosch123> but usually the forum people don't consider that funny 23:02:20 <frosch123> (maybe noone does) 23:02:40 <Xaroth|Work> heh 23:02:41 <Xaroth|Work> the rage 23:02:57 <Wolf01> i would pay 9.99⬠23:03:57 <Wolf01> but only with season pass included, i don't want to pay again every time andy releases a dlc 23:03:58 <Wolf01> ;) 23:04:20 <frosch123> oi, firs season pass 23:04:26 <frosch123> too bad andy already left 23:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andy always already left... 23:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> also, frosch123 always already left :p 23:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and drac_boy :p 23:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's me :p 23:05:46 <frosch123> i thought i join just after being summoned 23:06:50 * drac_boy pokes eddi with a coal shovel 23:06:52 <drac_boy> heh? 23:07:35 <argoneus> Xaroth|Work: mc is playable 23:07:38 <argoneus> without crashes every 5 mins 23:09:25 <drac_boy> and which of hows this for a strange looking locomotive in uk? :) https://presnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/xmas-holiday-2011-013.jpg 23:09:50 <drac_boy> I almost expect that glass box above the yellow face to flash a bit like KITT's red light :) 23:10:28 <Wolf01> aahah 23:10:45 <frosch123> why do brittish engines always have such a steep front? 23:11:36 <frosch123> also, what weird engine is that 23:11:38 <drac_boy> wolf01 well..what can I say http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Technology/Pix/pictures/2008/11/28/kitt460.jpg :) 23:11:49 <frosch123> it does not have the cabin in the front, but it does not seem to be a steam engine either 23:12:08 *** roidal_ [~roland@193-154-136-77.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.2] 23:12:09 <drac_boy> frosch...there were actually a few uk diesels with the cab being placed flat at one end 23:12:15 <drac_boy> not just only the class 09's 23:12:23 <frosch123> in my mind only steam engines have the cabin in the back, because of the tender 23:13:50 <drac_boy> frosch well I recall these particular then-common diesels would sometimes run nose-to-nose (aka cab forward) in pair .. other times its cab-to-cab 23:13:59 <drac_boy> trying to find the proper name now so hang on :) 23:15:28 <Wolf01> frosch123, what about the fairlie ones? 23:15:44 <drac_boy> aha it was called 'Type 1' (with its small size compared to everything else no wonder it got numbered one) 23:16:15 <drac_boy> seem to be listed for 1000hp in 1957+ (that explains them often doubleheading) 23:16:51 <drac_boy> wolf01 fairlie? you mean that weird stuffed up thing that looks like someone crashed two locomotives into each others' rear? :) 23:16:59 <Wolf01> yeah 23:17:14 <frosch123> yeah, it's two engines 23:17:29 <frosch123> like you can put two graphics cards into one computer, but still run only one display 23:17:32 <drac_boy> I never really understood the reasoning behind its design but then again it does seem interesting running down the line nevertheless 23:17:35 <frosch123> but at double frame rate or so 23:17:56 <Wolf01> also there are these http://www.gamersdailynews.com/userfiles/image/2012/June/cab-forward.jpg 23:17:57 <drac_boy> I'll rather order a standard compound 0-6-6-0 or so if I had needed more traction..but to our own :) 23:18:30 <drac_boy> wolf01 that seem to error out? 23:18:38 <Wolf01> mmmh 23:18:51 <Wolf01> https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCKfjx5DaXwqLsLOsz8hXqFQsEl2TWmtGrVgfyKCALDcIIF5Qa_g 23:19:54 <drac_boy> wolf01 ah well that was due to both being oil fired and re having a lot of tunnel on grade so simple solution to smoke problem was to flip the thing around and run long oil pipes as to put the cab ahead of the smokestack 23:20:18 <drac_boy> but then sometimes they ran doublehead so the second cab still had to carry a breather kit to work safely through the tunnels :-s 23:21:13 <Wolf01> and as i love finding weird steam locomotives, here is a little bonus: https://www.flickr.com/photos/wwwuppertal/16182656836 23:22:00 <drac_boy> wolf01 not quite related but the EMD SD40T came to be only because the original units overheated easily in the long 10mph drag through tunnels .. so the major alteration was to make the engine suck air from just below the chassis (instead of right at the roof as usual) and that more or less cured the overheat shutdown issues 23:22:12 <drac_boy> T could be short for 'Tunnel motors' as it sometimes was called on paper 23:22:59 <drac_boy> not surprisingly the SD40T were only found in the colorado area (and only when UP did buy out SP did these locomotives then sometimes end up on different routes too) 23:23:04 <frosch123> Wolf01: yay, an explosive-safe engine 23:24:04 <Wolf01> it reminds me of the steamboy anime movie 23:24:59 *** efess [~Efess@c-24-61-64-170.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 23:25:15 <drac_boy> wolf01 btw if you want something a bit less than normal .. look up the 4-2-0 and 2-2-0's that existed during the 1800's era (basically same chassis&boiler as the then-common American 4-4-0's after all) 23:25:35 <drac_boy> kinda weird to see what looks like a 4-4-0 locomotive actually instead riding on 2-2-0 axles :-s 23:26:01 <drac_boy> and which of I need to afk for a bit...shouldn't be too long tho (unless buffer fluxes up) 23:26:49 <Wolf01> you mean these? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Pioneer_CNW_4-2-0.jpg 23:29:09 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:31:42 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19DC6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:17 <Wolf01> http://sbiii.com/bwrkapix/brdknm22.jpg i can't understand this one 23:32:24 <Wolf01> 0-2-0? 23:40:56 <drac_boy> heh that 4-2-0 looks weird..almost like a donkey engine slapped into some weird boiler 23:43:15 <frosch123> Wolf01: don't drive it without a wagon, i guess? 23:43:38 <frosch123> but hey, all axles are powered :) 23:44:20 <Wolf01> it looks like one of these http://www.fort-it.com/multimedia/prodotti/2/foto/big/motocoltivatore-explorer-fort.jpg 23:45:29 <Eddi|zuHause> is that a segway crossed with a lawnmower? :p 23:47:05 <Wolf01> we used a lot of these here, usually you stick a cart to it and go around 23:47:37 <Wolf01> or you just use it to turn over your garden 23:55:44 <drac_boy> btw heres how to make a 0-2-0 ... by attaching a tender to it :P http://whymsical.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=136 23:56:15 <drac_boy> and ever more weird http://www.bates-r-us.org/birdwater/bwa1986/bwa486.jpg .. no idea if it'll steam with all that cold pipes! 23:57:30 <Wolf01> mmmh weird 23:58:02 <drac_boy> wolf01 I do know something you may like tho...what kind of locomotive has two separate boilers driving a common center rail? :P 23:58:31 <Wolf01> i know that one 23:59:23 <Wolf01> http://gold.mylargescale.com/BobBaxter/Monorail01.jpg ? 23:59:37 <drac_boy> heh yep :) 23:59:43 <drac_boy> only example of its own kind if I recall