Log for #openttd on 20th November 2015:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:37  <drac_boy> hi wolf01 :)
00:01:45  <Wolf01> o/
00:02:50  *** sim-al2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:03:43  <drac_boy> ah, meh :-s
00:03:47  <drac_boy> oh well heh
00:04:18  <Flygon> Eddi: And family wonders why I don't buy low fat
00:04:21  <Flygon> Every time I got low fat
00:04:23  <Flygon> I got fatter
00:05:33  <drac_boy> flygon it really depends on food regulations tbh
00:05:40  <Flygon> Ehh
00:05:47  <Flygon> I would dare say America doesn't HAVE food regulations
00:05:48  <Flygon> :B:B
00:05:49  <drac_boy> here you can't hide fat/sodium under alternative logos at all
00:06:00  <Flygon> (whipped cheese wasn't legally classifiable as a food in Australia @_@)
00:06:16  <Supercheese> cheez whiz
00:06:21  <Supercheese> blaauugh
00:06:31  <Flygon> I aint sayin' they aint listed in the tables here. I'm just saying marketing overrides the ability to read a table. xP
00:06:41  <Flygon> Supercheese: I promise not to can you
00:06:45  <Flygon> Just promise not to ball me
00:06:55  <Supercheese> blaaaaauuuugh
00:06:56  *** Flygon [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:07:36  *** Flygon [] has joined #openttd
00:07:47  <Supercheese> maybe I'll use an apricorn instead
00:07:51  <Supercheese> oldschool
00:08:17  <Flygon> Sorry, someone's bad joke in a diff server actually crashed my IRC client
00:08:57  <Supercheese> so... if you pun hard enough, you can break the Internet?
00:09:27  <Flygon> Ys
00:09:28  <Flygon> Yes*
00:09:35  <Flygon> It didn't help that it was a subway joke
00:10:50  <drac_boy> subway? not LUL i hope :)
00:11:15  <Flygon> Oh, right
00:11:35  <Flygon> I'm in #openttd, I forgot some countries call their metropolis train networks Subways
00:11:52  <Flygon> Here, we just call it the Train Network :U
00:12:01  <Supercheese> well, just undergrounds mostly
00:12:37  <Supercheese> and the sub sandwich chain of restaurants :B
00:13:00  <drac_boy> flygon I only mentioned that because I know a site that quoted strange/funny messages heard on the tanny in the LUL system :)
00:13:04  <Flygon> (I still argue that a properly built Tram network is more convenient than a subway, combined with a long distance heavy rail. But, what do I know about transport planning xP)
00:13:31  <Flygon> Yeah, Subway just known for their footlongs here
00:13:41  <Supercheese> "What are your qualifications for transport design engineer?" "Well, I've played like, a billion games of OpenTTD..."
00:13:41  <Eddi|zuHause> some towns are even worse, they put a miniscule part of their tram underground, and put the subway sign on it
00:13:54  <drac_boy> especially about an ex-plane captain now driving a tube and actually telling his passengers "we're at xxx altitude, temperature is xxx, timezone has not changed. have a good day!"
00:14:05  <drac_boy> I wonder about that sort of things sometimes heh
00:14:10  <Flygon> Eddi: Derp.
00:14:27  <Flygon> drac_boy: Well, the SCMaglev trains are technically aircraft...
00:14:38  <Flygon> They even have actual altitudes from the 'ground'
00:14:47  <Flygon> Frankly, it's a plane without wings!!!
00:15:00  <drac_boy> flygon as for transport planning .. you probably don't want to hire me if your city has a mess of underground sections :p
00:15:12  <Flygon> Melbourne? Eh
00:15:24  <drac_boy> otherwise just stay out of the way (and don't complain about art-isty wires in certain sections too) :)
00:15:25  <Flygon> The only real 'subway' part of it is the City Loop in the CBD
00:15:36  <Flygon> ?? What's wrong with wires?
00:15:42  <Flygon> I'm terrified of third rail
00:15:50  <Flygon> There's ZERO third rail networks in Australia!
00:16:01  <Flygon> And the wires we do have, at least, in Melbourne, particulary with the Trams
00:16:04  <Flygon> Are pretty well hidden
00:16:24  <drac_boy> btw why 'art-isty' I meant more like it does not look lik e aindustrial cement pole holding a simple steel i-beam
00:16:37  <drac_boy> thats the wrong way to go doing it but a lot of "cheap" cities apparently do it in these sort of ways
00:16:55  <Flygon>,_2013.JPG And this is actually on the 'worse' end of the spectrum for most of the network
00:17:06  <Flygon>,0.jpg Though, there is some exeptionally messy bits :B
00:17:09  <Eddi|zuHause> it's more commonly steel poles here, i think
00:17:31  <Supercheese> Flygon: looks like San Francisco's muni trams/trolleybuses
00:17:59  <Supercheese> the overhead wire network, at least
00:18:09  <Flygon> Supercheese: SanFran is Northern Hemisphere Tram capital. Melbourne is Southern Hemisphere Tram capital
00:18:17  <Flygon> Not too surprised by some potentially shared styles/technologies xP
00:18:24  <Supercheese> Ha, I see
00:18:32  <drac_boy> umm...yeah too many wires period .. :)
00:18:59  <drac_boy> btw aussie and we used to talk a bit about some of the older trains especially the red slamdoors right?
00:19:12  <Flygon> Too many wires? Hardly
00:19:28  <Flygon> Red slamdoors? That's a new one
00:20:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the weirdest part of that image is the tram driving on the wrong side
00:20:17  <drac_boy> I forgot the name..something about victorian emu with only one window (as the position for 2nd one wasn't there) for the cab ... and the side profile almost looked same as a normal coach if it wasn't for the pantographs
00:20:30  <Flygon> (excuse the instagram filter) There's hardly any wires here!
00:20:54  <Flygon> drac_boy: You mean Red Rattler?
00:20:58  <drac_boy> "any wires"? well THAT is how I would do it to be honest :) .. just one long line per route/track :)
00:21:03  <Flygon> There was the Swing Door and Sliding Door varieties
00:21:30  <Flygon> The Swing Doors tended to get their doors lobbed off by bridges and tunnels
00:21:34  <drac_boy> flygon .. ah... yep thats it
00:21:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i genuinely despise people who deliberately take colours out of pictures
00:21:42  <Flygon> As in... people left them unlocked, then the EMU would hit 80-100
00:21:50  <drac_boy> and btw I don't recall .. whats with that weird "hump" around the cab?
00:21:52  <Flygon> And then the doors hit some tight clearance areas
00:22:02  <Flygon> The hump?
00:22:12  <Flygon> The EMUs were built in the 1870s-1880s
00:22:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a guy who had colour pictures from like the 1950's. and he took the fricking colours out!
00:22:25  <Eddi|zuHause> and it even looked terrible!
00:22:31  <Flygon> It was the cestorly (I know I spelt that wrong) styling of the time
00:22:35  <Flygon> They got EMUized in the 1920s
00:23:15  <Flygon> Or - The hump serves no purpose whatsoever apart from looking cool
00:23:18  <drac_boy> flygon well in that photo I found .. it seem like theres supposed to be something beside the destination board taking up space in that full-width hump over the cab section itself
00:23:33  <Flygon> Oh, yes. I forgot about the desto board
00:23:38  <Flygon> But apart from that, no real purpose
00:24:15  <Flygon> Eddi: Now you know how I feel about American/European driving directions xP
00:24:24  <drac_boy> heh looks a little strange .. and the airhorn apparently appear to be mounted behind the hump .. can't wonder what it would sound like if the driver left these sideway-sliding windows opened!
00:24:35  <Flygon> Or - I find it impossible to play OTTD in Right-side driving x.x
00:25:07  <Flygon> drac_boy: I'm not sure if the windows were openable or not
00:25:15  <Flygon> Considering they were from the 1870s-1880s
00:25:32  <drac_boy> flygon well the two sections are not overlaid .. it looks like theres enough offset for one to slide over the other one
00:25:36  <Eddi|zuHause> at least in germany, humps like this were common in the time of separately braked and unbraked wagons, so the train leader can oversee brake operators on the whole train
00:26:09  <drac_boy> eddi .. well this one is a bit odd because the cab window is to the right side but the hump's window is to the left side
00:26:30  <drac_boy> (unless they're using engineer/fireman placement difference)
00:27:04  <Flygon> Eddi: Considering the age of the carriages, that might actually be the reason
00:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the train leader is someone separate from the train driver
00:27:26  <Flygon> They were originally locomotive hauled (duh), and the carriage portion would have a guard at the rear end monitoring the carriages
00:27:57  <drac_boy> flygon but anyway ... the main reason I bought this up now is because heh well I'm just curious .. were there much of any third rail running in australia?
00:28:43  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the upper window would need some elevated ground under it, it would probably not be advisable to have that overlap with the drivers cab
00:29:17  <Flygon> drac_boy: Virtually non-existant
00:29:21  <Eddi|zuHause> so a window on the cab side would have no purpose
00:29:26  <Flygon> 600v would've been too low for the heavy rail lines anyway
00:29:37  <Flygon> So we jumped right to 1500vDC in the 1910s and used overhead
00:31:06  <drac_boy> flygon heh I had to ask anyway
00:31:45  <Flygon> And I'd bet the only reason the Trams used 600v was due to that being the only thing available for the same period
00:32:04  <Flygon> As in
00:32:06  <Flygon> Same period being...
00:32:09  <Flygon> 1890s for the Trams
00:32:14  <Flygon> My language skills are subpar
00:33:20  <Eddi|zuHause> 600V is pretty common for trams
00:33:39  <drac_boy> at least overhead isn't hard to do especially when you got the option for Sommerfeldt if you don't want make it yourself
00:33:53  <Flygon> "Pretty common". Dude, it's THE Tram voltage :D
00:33:56  <drac_boy> (just my own random not)
00:33:59  <drac_boy> note*
00:34:48  <drac_boy> flygon .. well by nature trams usually prefer not having to carry transformers (especially with trying to be super-alllowfloor these days too) so no surprise if the overhead lines usually are at same voltage the traction motors are for
00:35:05  <Flygon> iirc, Melbourne's Trams probably use AC motors
00:35:09  <Flygon> As in, the modern ones
00:35:13  <Flygon> Do NOT quote me on this though
00:36:12  <drac_boy> btw interesting little tidbit...the pre-overhead third rail electrification used for the Grand Central Terminal (or was it a different station name?) was also at like 500-700V too as this was direct feed to the resistor taps for the motors
00:36:53  * Flygon nod
00:37:08  <Flygon> I do think the 'electrics only' rule is a tad silly
00:37:16  <drac_boy> so yeah some of the small locomotives that came out in the middle between 3rd rail still being active and overhead elsewhere being built out actually had a dual lowdc+11Kac supply
00:37:47  <Flygon> Hell, even the City Loop in Melbourne is practically designed to handle Diesels. Despite being designed mainly just for EMUs
00:37:56  <drac_boy> flygon well you have to think of what it was like back then .. combustion powered was a very small niche so it was mainly steam or the then-expanding electrics
00:38:18  <Flygon> drac: Doesn't mean the legislation imposing this isn't outdated now
00:38:26  <Flygon> With proper ventalation, Diesel really isn't a problem
00:38:35  <Flygon> Granted, this is also a partial problem with the City Loop
00:39:21  <drac_boy> even the cleveland station (even if the track layouts don't seem to suggest it) was usually with steam being electric-hauled out of the station ... the electrification only finally died rapidly when large number of trains became emd hauled (hint: diesels)
00:39:23  <Flygon> (the ventalation systems required are a tad expensive to run, so, they prefer advance warning. This doesn't mean that the random DMUs/Loco pax. trains routed through there immediately kill everyone, just that they prefer not to do that xP)
00:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> <drac_boy> flygon .. well by nature trams usually prefer not having to carry transformers (especially with trying to be super-alllowfloor these days too) so no surprise if the overhead lines usually are at same voltage the traction motors are for <-- i don't think modern trams have DC engines in them. usually it's transformed to 3-phase onboard
00:39:59  <Flygon> (and, yes, we have accidentally routed Diesel trains through our underground system. Metrol appear to smoke crack as part of their diet or something)
00:40:14  <Flygon> (thank goodness a freighter hasn't been routed, yet)
00:41:41  <drac_boy> flygon mind you for a short time (this was mentioned in the station story I read before anyway) a lot of the diesels were rerouted to other works so steam had to fill in the gaps [and the electrics were more often absent as well] and not surprisingly the railroad became embarrased when the smoke regulators caught onto this
00:42:10  <Flygon> Awkward
00:42:53  <Flygon> (Steam locos were used to shunt randomly here throughout into the 70s, but... obviously, almost our entire metropolis network is above ground
00:42:59  <drac_boy> I imagine .. just for you to know the station had a large uphill curved viaduct to deal with on the south side .. so thats why the electric bankers existed till diesels ousted them
00:43:21  <Flygon> (I'm not sure if any Steam locos have actually run live through the City Loop. Don't think the ventalation system is designed for it)
00:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i once read a story on how a steam engine was used during construction of the Munich S-Bahn line under the city
00:44:29  <Eddi|zuHause> because no other engine was available, apparently
00:45:56  <drac_boy> flygon the funny thing is that a lot of the photos for electric-hauled trains out of CUT would more than often show a steady cloud of semi-white smoke coming out from all 6-8 drive axles .. I could be wrong but I suspect they were hitting the throttle hard with sander wide open
00:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> (this was prior to the munich olympic games, so in the 1970s, when steam was already on its way out, so this was like a museum engine that happened to be nearby)
00:46:18  <drac_boy> just haven't noticed photos like that at any of the other electrified stations in northwest usa (or at least per PRR/NH)
00:46:57  <Flygon> drac_boy: I was assuming they had a boiler used for the braking and heating systems
00:47:14  <Flygon> Eddi: That'd randomly happen with VR here
00:47:33  <Flygon> And the reason you see the (then) 100 year old EMUs running about in the 1980s photographed
00:47:46  *** SpComb [] has joined #openttd
00:48:13  <drac_boy> flygon well..the boiler was a bit rare and even then it usually was of a donkey style boiler with the smoke stack fitted to the roof
00:48:20  <Flygon> Steam locos would randomly haul pax. too. Helped that most were either as or more powerful than their replacement Diesels @_@
00:48:28  <drac_boy> only the GG1 were knowingly ordered with steam heating by design
00:48:52  <drac_boy> (although they went through two generations..the early steam-like boiler and the later electric-heated-water "diesel era" boiler)
00:49:25  <Flygon> (the R-class locos, when recommissioned by a private railway (West Coast Railways) in the 1990s and 00s would actually outperform the Diesels they ran. Despite being 40-50 years old at the time. They usually ran in MU operation with a Diesel, though)
00:49:59  <Flygon> Hell, V/Line nowadays are practically running museum piece Diesels. A66 is still running, despite being about over 65 years old now.
00:50:03  <drac_boy> btw heres one of these few locomotives that were common around the CUT areas till diesels killed them
00:50:26  <drac_boy> and the long platforms was a rather normal thing back then re fitting more traction axles without having to make the body longer to match
00:50:35  <Flygon> It runs on sheer absurdity
00:50:42  <drac_boy> (plus a small degree of road crossing protection as well although I dunno about that)
00:50:59  <Flygon> (sadly, the three other A's V/Line still 'have' are permanantly shut down. Mainly to provide spare parts for A66)
00:51:31  <Flygon> drac, that's one of the weirdest looking electric locos I've seen
00:52:21  <drac_boy> flygon well what else do you expect from usa during the 1910-1940's period? :)
00:52:32  <Flygon> Streamliners everywhere? xP
00:52:48  <Flygon> Then again, VR of the same period made some pretty clunky electric locos too
00:52:56  <drac_boy> btw New Haven also was one of the only very few rare places in usa that you could actually find a double-cab carbody unit (NH's was electric but florida's was diesel-electric)
00:53:23  <drac_boy> otherwise (as you probably knew) all carbody diesels elsewhere in usa were of the single cab variety (aside to the booster units themself)
00:53:27  <Flygon>
00:53:30  <drac_boy> one sec...
00:53:33  <Flygon> They're both mechanically the same, note
00:53:57  <drac_boy> heres the NH electric one
00:54:24  <Flygon> (they ran off the same electrical equipment as the Red Rattlers, just.... in locomotive form)
00:54:34  <Flygon> (even the bogies are the same EMU ones)
00:54:43  <Flygon> drac_boy: 404
00:55:28  <Flygon> "The exposure of the driver to this electrical equipment led to them being nicknamed "electric chairs" among drivers.". VR drivers must've been enthusiastic for their locos :U
00:55:30  <drac_boy> hmm one sec
00:56:09  <drac_boy> heres the slight newer version instead
00:56:23  <drac_boy> don't mind THAT paintjob .. it was one that didn't live for a long time anyhow
00:56:35  <Flygon> Interesting design
00:56:55  <Flygon> Somehow thought the NH on the hood was Kanji for a second there
00:56:56  <drac_boy> I'm not sure how much the dual cab configuration got used tbh .. someone would have to check an usa book that talked about them I guess
00:57:14  <Flygon> VR used Dual-cab where possible on the urban network
00:57:37  <Flygon> They didn't want to mess around with turning locomotives around
00:57:57  <Flygon> A lot of old video of VR's operations tends to show tank locos running in reverse hauling a set
00:58:02  <Flygon> They're sprightly little buggers too
00:58:49  <drac_boy> well C&NW simply used push-pull mode instead ... although early on sometimes the mushup could be a bit funny (nothing like a light freight locomotive hauling an E8 which is then hauling three bilevel coaches ... and theres nowwhere to turn this around either)
00:59:14  <drac_boy> flygon .. lol you mentioning tank reminds me of a crazy canadian story I read before (probably still have the magazine too) ....
01:00:15  <drac_boy> the CN commuter (when VIA didn't think of existing yet ofc) train .. well .. lets say that some of them had to turn around in montreal ... normal orders calls for the train to stop on track A then the locomotive run around via B while the coaches are being loaded ...
01:01:14  <drac_boy> but soon enough someone seem to had figured out to simply slow down the train a bit then run the locomotive directly onto B while the coaches themself drift into platform still staying on A .. then the locomotive back out to couple on (and even with the railroad police watching too, apparently noone cared!)
01:01:30  <drac_boy> this probably saved a lot of time (and only having to throw one turnout alone)
01:01:35  <Flygon> xP
01:01:43  <Flygon> Just remembered a recent story from here...
01:01:46  <Flygon> Basically
01:02:00  <Flygon> A66 hauling a set accidentally got routed into Souther Cross Platform 1...
01:02:07  <Flygon> Which's the main INTERSTATE platform
01:02:17  <Flygon> And has zero runaround facilities for locomotives...
01:02:31  <Flygon> ...and it got routed into the platform at the same time the XPT was due to go into it
01:02:44  <Flygon> And there was no other spare DG/SG platforms for the XPT to go into
01:03:23  <Flygon> Combine this with V/Line having no shunters nearby (because they aren't just about to reverse into the businest bit of track in Australia)
01:03:41  <drac_boy> so where did the xpt really stop at? :)
01:03:51  <Flygon> And the fact that the only other thing nearby wouldn't have been able to couple to it if it wanted to to pull it out (the XPT)
01:03:58  <Flygon> Well... the XPT had to wait an hour
01:04:51  <drac_boy> either way this is one of the things that used to push/haul the commuter trains on CN lines a long time ago and yep I know it almost could seem like someone rammed a short 2-axle tender into the cab ... as it seem "big" for a tank bunker :)
01:05:03  <Flygon> V/Line had to quickly run a Y-Class locomotive out (quickly being a relative term... they max out at 65km/h. And they had to get spare paths to drive through. And this is in the dead middle of peak hour)
01:05:05  <Flygon> In the ent
01:05:06  <Flygon> end*
01:05:33  <Flygon> V/Line were furious. Metrol were furious. Centrol were furious. Metro were furious. Trains for New South Wales were furious.
01:05:34  <drac_boy> heh well "quick" has different definitions to different people you ask :P
01:05:47  <Flygon> All because one single train accidentally got routed to the wrong regional platform
01:05:54  <Flygon> ( These're the Y-Class btw)
01:06:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so the other train was too long to fit both trains on the platform?
01:06:09  <Flygon> Eddi: Wrong gauge
01:06:23  <Flygon> Victoria uses 1600mm, New South Wales uses 1435mm
01:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause> how does that matter?
01:06:48  <Flygon> And Southern Cross has two Dual-Gauge platforms. The other dual-gauge platform was occupied.
01:06:57  <drac_boy> eddi...dual-gauge does not always cover an entire station for cost reasons as I recall
01:08:32  <Flygon> Not just cost reasons
01:08:35  <drac_boy> even then in europe (I know this is unrelated) there used to be some stations that for example if there was 3 separate platform tracks .. first one would only have 1500vdc, third one only had 11000vac, and the middle one had special signals re being switchable-voltage one (probably treated as a nonstop routing too)
01:08:38  <Flygon> It makes designing points a pita
01:08:42  <Flygon> And imposes speed limits for the DG half
01:08:56  <Flygon> Er, for the BG half
01:09:08  <Flygon> But, yeah
01:09:23  <Flygon> Crap like this is why Victorians want the entire state to be SGized already
01:09:53  <drac_boy> flygon heh about points .. I know theres one station that had two tracks but in an interesting design only one was dualgauge so it could sometimes make for funny looking operation where eg train leaves platform 2 .. cross over to track 1 for only one hundred meters .. then cross back to track 2 to get to the immediate mainline just so it can stay on its own gauge
01:10:05  <Flygon> An entire portion of the busiest regional railway station in the country shouldn't be disabled because someone accidentally pressed the wrong button
01:10:27  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i know that Brenner station had (or still has) non-switchable voltage up to the middle of the platform. so the engine has to turn off power on the way into the station, run powerless to the end, and be pulled out by shunters
01:10:39  <Flygon> (I note btw, that the only reason V/Line would've sent a Y instead of an N is due to all their Ns being busy with peak hour duties)
01:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Brenner being the border station between austria and italy
01:11:04  <Flygon> (the Ys are only spare surplus in peak due to being so pathetically weak in the modern context)
01:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the highest point of the mountainous route
01:12:12  <drac_boy> eddi .. heh well there was a switzerland (I believe it was the standard gauge side) train depot that a certain small fleet of emu's used .. well now the problem is it was wrong voltage .. but in a twist of fate most of the approaching track is downhill sloped .. so the emu in question simply would coast into the depot .. then after done one of the depot shunter (looks bit like the Kof II but not exactly one) would push it back uphill out of the way
01:12:50  <drac_boy> flygon .. were the Y the ones that always never could get much of any trains up to any kind of speeds? or thats what I kinda recall from our chats before
01:14:26  <Flygon> The Ys were designed for low use branchlines
01:14:39  <Flygon> Cheap to run, and the branchlines rarely had speed limits over 65km/h
01:14:54  <Flygon> As soon as they built up a big fleet of Ys the branchlines began shutting down
01:15:21  <Flygon> So VR were suddenly left with a lot of 640hp locos that couldn't break over 65km/h
01:15:36  <drac_boy> aha .. yeah I think I can see the resemblence .. there were some usa trains that were happy working slow but as soon as you tried kick them (re speed) they got horrible about it
01:15:39  <Flygon> They tried to repurpose them for mainline duties but... that ended badly. Passengers despised them
01:15:47  <Flygon> (they were built in the 60s-70s)
01:16:19  <Flygon> So, they all got cascaded down to freight as additional horsepower. Which they actually did a decent job as
01:16:40  <drac_boy> flygon oh btw it may sound weird but for a while on a particular older commuter railroad they sometimes only had one EMD E unit for a train and this was just about enough to run headend power but left little for traction purpose so they usually would just run one of their freight locomotive for traction .. now the thing is these were geared for only like 60-70kph maximum...
01:16:48  <Flygon> And at least one got regeared for 90km/h as a commissioners loco (that is... one that's driven by the railway commissioner to dawdle about the network. No need to haul anything)
01:17:15  <drac_boy> but it at least helped that even if they were slow .. the station lengths were very close together and these slow thing could really get up to full speed quite fast .. so the normal schedule wasn't too hard to follow
01:17:23  * Flygon nod
01:17:58  <Flygon> (the Ys that are still in existances are just used for shunting. They're too slow and weak to be useful for freight)
01:18:03  <drac_boy> probably helped that there was no food service .. could you imagine trying to not spill your drinks every time the train threatened to take off like a kangaroo :)
01:18:07  <Flygon> (and yet the Ts still keep going)
01:18:14  <Flygon> Cup holders xP
01:19:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never heard of food service on commuter trains
01:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> is that a thing that happens in america?
01:19:36  <Flygon> ( The oldest serving locomotive in Victoria is Y112... different class, just the same letter. VR liked to reuse class letters xP)
01:20:29  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has joined #openttd
01:21:49  <drac_boy> eddi well some lines would have basic coldbar service .. this usually died out during the ever-ongoing price cuts in 1960-1970's tho
01:22:08  <drac_boy> although the "amfleet" named amtrak trains did have a bit of unusual exception
01:22:16  <Flygon> ( This'd be the weakest VR locomotive I could possibly find (that isn't from the 1850s xP)
01:22:28  <Flygon> 150hp, 20km/h max. Diesel-Hydralic Shunter
01:22:56  <drac_boy> actually I kinda like that sort of thing .. especially for to move one wagon around cheaply with just a single man needed :)
01:23:06  <drac_boy> and btw sorry about this but I kinda need to go for now..maybe talk more another time :-s
01:23:11  <Flygon> Currently used as a Steamrail Victoria shunter
01:23:12  <Flygon> Have fun!
01:23:14  *** drac_boy [~oftc-webi@] has left #openttd []
01:24:09  <Flygon> Kind of odd seeing Steamrail Victoria's pair of these hauling stuff around
01:24:21  <Flygon> Even FREAKIER to realize the steam locomotive it's hauling is about the same age as it
01:24:40  <Flygon> There's a reason the R-class are such good steam locos. They're the last of their kind x.x
01:25:52  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:25:52  <Flygon> Oh, I was wrong
01:25:57  <Flygon> THESE are the weakest machines VR ran...
01:27:57  <Eddi|zuHause> in our local branch of the DB Museum, they have a battery powered shunter
01:28:12  <Flygon> Battery powered shunter?
01:28:13  <Flygon> Yowee O_o
01:28:33  <Flygon> Do they just swap the batteries over at a specific point and charge the batteries constantly on cycle?
01:28:41  <Flygon> Or do they plug the loco itself in?
01:28:59  <Eddi|zuHause> they probably plug it in
01:29:24  <Flygon> Gotcha
01:29:36  <Flygon> I do reckon battery is actually extremely suitable for EMU use...
01:29:38  <Flygon> The question is
01:29:51  <Flygon> Would the companies be willing to convert stations into battery exchange points?
01:30:05  <Flygon> Say, you're going from Melbourne to Echuca... good 250-300km long trip
01:30:31  <Flygon> For two of the stops, the EMU parks, and gets it's batteries swapped over automatically by hardware under the railway station platform
01:30:35  <Flygon> So it never runs out of charge
01:30:43  <Flygon> Akin to a steam locomotive being given more water...
01:30:52  <Flygon> And such a process wouldn't be very slow, either. It'd be quick
01:30:57  <Flygon> Why has nobody designed this?
01:31:13  *** sim-al2 [] has joined #openttd
01:31:21  <Flygon> It'd be cheaper than electrifying, while offering most of the benefits...
01:34:43  <Eddi|zuHause> germany had some battery powered railcars operating branch lines
01:35:16  <sim-al2> Japan has a battery EMU with overhead wire charging
01:35:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i wondered a while back why that isn't more common
01:35:59  <sim-al2> Cost I suppose, a diesel car is pretty flexible
01:36:07  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of electric/diesel hybrids, do electric/battery hybrids
01:36:29  <Eddi|zuHause> most lines nowadays are under wire at least on one end
01:37:02  <sim-al2> I assume the train can run on overhead normally, but the station segment on the line is only the length of the platform
01:37:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, just schedule an hour of waiting time after each trip to recharge
01:37:59  <Eddi|zuHause> or so.
01:39:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i also don't quite know why battery service was discontinued (besides of age of vehicles)
01:40:07  <sim-al2> I bet flexiblilty would be a factor, you could fuel up a DMU and send it somewhere else as a (slowish) express train
01:41:08  <sim-al2> This is the Japanese unit:
01:42:46  <sim-al2> 25 km battery run
01:43:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the german railcars had longer range, i think
01:44:23  <sim-al2> I don't know what the actual range is, one article implied at least 50km
01:44:47  <sim-al2> Also this one has air conditioning and the other nice things
01:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> this is a very old one:
01:46:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and this a more modern one
01:46:53  <sim-al2> The nose is almost like a Crocidile locomotive, but then it's compartments behind it
01:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it says range 300km on that last one
01:47:16  <sim-al2> At slow speed maybe
01:47:56  <sim-al2> Pretty long life though
01:48:19  <Flygon> According to some friends in another channel
01:48:26  <Flygon> Main thing preventing hotswapping batteries is mechanical wear
01:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause> of the electrical contacts, probably
01:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> batteries have the problem of being really heavy
01:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause> for very little energy stored
01:49:56  <sim-al2> Hanging an engine is not that light either :)
01:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> you still need an engine :p
01:50:17  <sim-al2> Fuel though, is damn good on energy density
01:50:30  <sim-al2> A little electric motor doesn't have to be heavy anymore
01:51:54  <Flygon> Friends also point out that Aussie environment means strong aircons...
01:52:00  <Flygon> You'd need backup Diesel for hot days
01:52:11  <sim-al2> I guess the question is whether battery maintanence or engine mainanence costs more. The way I see it, diesel engines will only get more and more expensive...
01:52:42  <sim-al2> I suppose it can be done, the Aussie DMUs already have aux engines anyway
01:52:52  <sim-al2> For some reason...
01:53:49  <Flygon> aux engines?
01:53:54  <Flygon> I don't know about New South Wales, but
01:54:11  <Flygon> The VLocity series in Victoria has two Diesel engines per carriages
01:54:22  <Flygon> Only one at a time can actually power the hydralic transmission
01:54:35  <sim-al2> NSW Hunters: An auxiliary 150 kW Cummins 6ISBe-G1 diesel engine drives a Newage Stamford UCI274H alternator to supply power for the air conditioning and lighting.
01:54:58  <Flygon> iirc, there's also an electric motor per carriage too. But I forgot if that's a silly rumor, or proof that the VLos are powered by raw overkill
01:55:01  <Flygon> Ahhhh
01:55:12  <Flygon> NSW Hunters are in the same family as the VLocities! They're siblings :3
01:55:27  <Flygon> The parent being the Xplorer/Endeavor series
01:55:39  <sim-al2> I don't see what an electric motor would do unless they have battery jog
01:55:53  <Flygon> Yes, I'm serious about there being railway geneology
01:55:57  <Eddi|zuHause> extra power for train heating/electricity is not that uncommon i believe
01:56:00  <sim-al2> Yeah, all they have the same QSK19 and aux engine
01:56:08  <Flygon> sim: They're reportedly battery powered
01:56:14  <sim-al2> In 'Merica, we steal it from the locomotive
01:56:15  <Flygon> But... again, uncomfirmed
01:56:35  <Flygon> I don't have the detailed technical specs on me, and my locomotive book both only does Aussie locomotives
01:56:43  <Flygon> And it only covers the 1850s to 1990s
01:56:46  <sim-al2> Some US locomotives were built with the ability to power a motor from the batteries for shop moves
01:57:28  <sim-al2> Also quite a few units with hydraulic transmissions (the turbine powered things) had an electric motor so they could run into Grand Central Terminal on 3rd rail
01:58:09  <Flygon> Oh, I've been grossly misinformed and confused
01:58:15  <Flygon> The VLos do still have just one motor per carriage
01:58:21  <Flygon> Just big 750hp ones
01:58:28  <sim-al2> Yeah, I was going to ask where they shoved another :)
01:58:31  <Flygon> Where the hell did I get told they had two motors per carriage...
01:58:42  <sim-al2> Lots of DMUs do, just not hugenormous ones
01:58:44  <Flygon> Still, they're grossly overkill
01:58:56  <Flygon> They're actually capable of out-accelerating a fair bit of the electric fleet here
01:59:27  <sim-al2> Nah, if you want to get up to 160km/h with a carriage that meets safety and comfort standards, that's a good thing to have
01:59:51  <sim-al2> I wonder how much fuel they use though, compared to the locomotive trains
02:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the hugenotts have engines now?
02:00:39  <Flygon> sim: They suck more fuel than anyone in the industry wants to admit
02:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause> man, these 18th century french protestant refugees are ressourceful :p
02:00:45  <Flygon> They were designed as regional HSTs
02:00:56  <Flygon> But they're currently being used as 160km/h interurbans instead
02:01:10  <sim-al2> Well they wanted a diesel train with electric performance...
02:01:19  <Flygon> Reportedly, in testing, the VLo units hit 210-225km/h for stress testing... so
02:01:26  <sim-al2> Dammmmmnnnnnn
02:01:36  <Flygon> I would personally consider them HSTs. The transmission is expicitly designed for 200km/h
02:01:43  <Flygon> But the railway related beaurocracy here is bloody nuts
02:02:10  <Flygon> 160 was chosen as to not require in-cab signalling. Any faster was deemed unsafe because they were worried drivers wouldn't see the signals
02:02:18  <Eddi|zuHause> trains have to be able to run comfortably at 110% of max speed
02:02:35  <Eddi|zuHause> so if they're designed for 200, they must be able to test run at 220
02:02:44  <Flygon> And by 160 I mean, they're still allowed 10% overspeed. A late VLo running 177km/h is not uncommon. But the computer will emergency brake if it's going ay faster.
02:02:51  <sim-al2> That's a mechanical thing though, the limits choose allow a safery margin
02:02:52  <Flygon> And, Eddi has a point
02:03:12  <Flygon> Given how old the XPT is... and that the XPT is being retired and replaced
02:03:21  <sim-al2> Amtrak specs all the equipment at 135 mph for extra margin
02:03:54  <sim-al2> Wow 177? That's a big margin
02:03:55  <Flygon> My ideal XPT replacement would just be a souped up VLocity built for 220km/h... you'd need to fix up a few lines, allow for in-cab signalling, and get such a concept past the beaurocracy
02:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 135*1.6
02:04:17  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 216
02:04:31  <Flygon> But even if the DMU wouldn't be allowed to hit it's real top speed, it's a reasonable futureproofing to design for. And given it'd be parts (and presumably couplable) to the VLocity, Hunter, and Xplorer series anyway...
02:04:37  <Flygon> But, I'm armcharing the hell out of this
02:05:43  <Flygon> In the end, I'd just use the VLocity as a derivative for sheer convenience
02:06:07  <sim-al2> Trust me, if you don't want them I would take them
02:06:51  <Flygon> Bonus points that the VLo has another sibling class running about in Western Australia explicitly designed for 200km/h (the current WA Prospector DMU units). The only real differences between both sets is the internal seating arrangements, catering, and the computers having different auto-emergency brake speeds
02:07:21  <sim-al2> Sounds like you guys have the basis for the One True DMU
02:08:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you know that in civilized countries, trains run at scheduled 300km/h...
02:08:36  <sim-al2> They also didn't spend the money to have a complete highway network instead
02:08:45  <Flygon> Eddi: Believe me, most of the population here DOES want an interstate HST
02:08:48  <Flygon> An electric one
02:09:05  <Flygon> But... we've instead become ridiculously good at building Diesel HSTs in a country that doesn't even have HST infrastructure
02:09:24  <Flygon> Well, I mean... we have the infrastructure. The beaurocrats just pretend we don't. xP
02:10:07  <Wolf01> 'night
02:10:08  <sim-al2> That would great here, the one HST project under way right now is in Florida
02:10:10  <sim-al2> night
02:10:12  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
02:10:51  <Flygon> Night Wo- dammit
02:11:03  <Flygon> sim: What about the California HST?
02:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: unrelated, but what happened to the plan to destry half the barrier reef to expand coal mining?
02:11:30  <sim-al2> Ok perhaps, but there's still room for a sneak attack to kill it
02:11:49  <Flygon> (the real problem is... the two most politically popular HST lines are also the two hardest to build. Because you'd be dealing with building through the middle of a mountain range for both of them)
02:11:57  <Flygon> Eddi: I wish I knew
02:12:03  <Flygon> sim: True =/
02:12:04  <sim-al2> Assuming that California doesn't start cutting everything to stay afloat
02:12:45  <Flygon> The EASIEST HST line to build is Melbourne-Adelaide. The Melbourne-Ballarat portion has already been RFRified (meaning, HSR but we limit the speed to 160km/h because lol)
02:12:49  <sim-al2> There's some speed upgrade programs, but those are improvements to existing services
02:12:51  <Flygon> But nobody likes Adelaide
02:13:08  <Flygon> And there's railway gauge problems to boot...
02:13:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: so, the country is 95% flat desert, and they want to build the HSTs exactly at the 5% mountains?
02:13:14  <sim-al2> Lol, South Australia, the state no one knows about
02:13:28  <Flygon> Eddi: Our two biggest metropolises are integrated into the mountains
02:13:29  <Flygon> In fact
02:13:34  <sim-al2> 90% of the population is sane and lives on the coast
02:13:41  <Flygon> Sydney's actually hit a serious urban growth barrier problem because of their mountains
02:14:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: isn't like singapore the size of half of sydney, while having more population than all of australia combined?
02:14:34  <Flygon> But... yeah. Melbourne-Adelaide is easy. Most of the existing alignment is straight as hell. Just whack in an extra pair of tracks adjacent... the only real problems after that
02:14:45  <sim-al2> This is the Florida HST locomotive:
02:16:35  <Flygon> Are the Bacchus Marsh horseshoe curve (but the town'd probably be bypassed anyay), Adelaide Hills (which's... a mountain range. An incredibly frustrating one), gauge differences (which can be eliminated sorta by converting the Ballarat line to SG anyway (thus giving Ballan a HST stop instead), giving Ballarat a dedicated SG metro service, and extending the BG urban line to Bacchus Marsh), and the fact that despite it being t
02:16:36  <Flygon> he single easiest HST line to build, there'd be no real political goodwill for it because most of the seats it goes through are safe seats.
02:16:45  <sim-al2> I think, I just found something that shows a different design, but that model is from Siemens and the other one isn't
02:17:17  <Flygon> And from a federal perspective, only benefits primarially Victorian townships (which can be seen as disproportionately benefiting Victoria)... because any alignment you take barely has any towns in South Australia bar Adelaide
02:17:27  <Flygon> Because the entire population of South Australia lives in Adelaide...
02:17:40  <sim-al2> Heh
02:17:45  <Flygon> sim: Locomotive hauled?
02:17:53  <sim-al2> Yes, HST style
02:18:21  <sim-al2> One at each end
02:18:28  <Eddi|zuHause> "safe seats" is the single biggest issue with majority voting systems...
02:18:54  <sim-al2> Something something US politics
02:19:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i might be biased, but i really like the german hybrid voting system
02:19:36  <sim-al2> wow 79 confirmed orders now from various agencies
02:19:42  <sim-al2>
02:20:16  <Flygon> sim: I admit I'm not a huge fan of locomotive HSTs
02:20:33  <Flygon> But knowing how utterly, and please excuse my language here, fucked federal US railway regulation is
02:20:36  <Flygon> There's no avoiding it
02:20:48  <sim-al2> They will also serve commuter and long haul trains
02:20:59  * Flygon nod
02:21:20  <sim-al2> It was a low risk design for Siemens and now it will pay off well, especially if Amtrak jumps in
02:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause> for those that don't know, the german system works that everybody has two votes: the first one elects a local candidate by simple majority rule, which comprise half the parlament, and the other half of the seats are filled up so it matches the proportional second vote
02:22:25  <Flygon> Eddi: Here, it's the usual "Upper" and "Lower" house system with Preferential voting
02:22:36  <sim-al2> The FRA regulations are outdate yes but most European units will not survive anything more than a side-swipe with 130 tonne freight cars
02:22:58  <Flygon> But despite our voting system, we've had an unusually 'stable' political seats thingy
02:23:12  <Eddi|zuHause> so the parliament in the end looks like a proportional one, but it keeps some local representation typial for majority voting
02:23:15  <Flygon> sim: I aint denying that. That's why you get Australians to design crashworthy D/EMUs xP
02:23:27  <Flygon> The VLocities here are absurdly crash resistant
02:23:43  <Flygon> You can't say any other train is literally bulletproof (the front ends are made of kevlar!)
02:24:38  <Flygon> This is in part due to being designed to hit level crossings at 160km/h
02:25:10  <Flygon> Unfortunately, the most serious accident involving a VLocity involved one hitting a truck carrying cube stone slabs of rock
02:25:20  <Flygon> Which's not only the most unlikely thing a VLo could hit at speed
02:25:25  <Flygon> But the worst possible thing it could hit
02:25:49  <Flygon> Passengers weren't too hurt, but everyone in the cab was moosh. The same result would've occoured with a locomotive train tbh.
02:26:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so what's the benefit of a bulletproof train over a bullet train?
02:26:33  <Flygon> Eddi: It's boganproof
02:27:35  <Eddi|zuHause> well, meanwhile, german DMUs get completely smashed by hitting a car
02:28:59  <Flygon> Mm x:
02:29:16  <Flygon>,0.jpg
02:29:26  <Flygon> It hit the truck around 115-130km/h, it was emergency braking
02:29:33  <Flygon> But...
02:29:54  <Flygon> Apart from the cab becoming utterly pancaked and the DMU derailed, the entire passenger compartment was untouched
02:30:09  <Flygon> Hell, it was still running when that photo was taken...
02:34:11  <sim-al2> Yeah, I think we need to borrow some Aussies, but we have a strong case of "not invented here", see the PTC specs, etc
02:34:13  <Flygon> I imagine if our rail regulations were less stringent, they would've decoupled the 'functioning' railcar, and simply run it to the workshops for repairs
02:34:22  * Flygon nod
02:34:42  <Flygon> Australians mostly build themselves due to paranioa...
02:34:47  <Flygon> Whenever we get overseas equipment
02:34:52  <Flygon> It tends to fail pretty hard
02:35:06  <sim-al2> Seriously, as far as I can tell the ETMS/ETCS did everything the FRA wanted, and already had the bugs worked out
02:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause> have you tried turning it upside down after arrival? :p
02:35:21  <Flygon> Eurotrams crap themselves in Melbourne due to either the heat or the network being built 'worse' than a European city
02:35:29  <Flygon> (eg. tight curve lengths, overall much rougher track)
02:35:40  <Flygon> (we recently had a C2-class Tram have it's wheel come flying off at speed!!!!)
02:35:59  <Flygon> Oh, it was a standard C clas
02:36:07  <Flygon> Eddi: None have rolled yet, thankfully
02:37:00  <Flygon> Hell... before privatization
02:37:05  <Flygon> We exported our Trams to Asia
02:37:12  <Flygon> And Asians are picky as fuck buggers
02:37:27  <Flygon> And it looks like the new E-classes might get exported to Euripe
02:37:29  <Flygon> Europe*
02:38:07  <Flygon> (ultimately, the Eurotrams faced the same problems the Pendos did in Finland. Our network and climate is just way too different for them to work correctly)
02:39:21  <Eddi|zuHause> well, germans managed to build air conditioning into their trains that fail when temperatures get above 40°C
02:39:29  <Flygon> We're having the same problem with heavy rail equipment too...
02:39:48  <Flygon> Siemens are practically banned permanantly from Victoria after the saga with the Siemens Nexas EMUs
02:39:51  <Eddi|zuHause> which happens about 3 times per year
02:40:01  <Flygon> And the X'trapolises are already rusting away despite being less than 10 years old
02:40:13  <sim-al2> Aren't they stainless steel?
02:40:16  <Flygon> (Siemens (duh) and Alstom respectively)
02:40:24  <Flygon> sim: Yes.
02:40:31  <Flygon> The X'trapolises are so bad
02:40:40  <Flygon> They're literally using stainless steel that can rust.
02:40:53  <Flygon> My friend's theory is that they're using a pretty bad alloy
02:40:58  <sim-al2> Getting a stainless steel body that can rust is ... impressive
02:41:19  * Flygon laughs
02:41:27  <sim-al2> Consider the US railcars from the 1940's and 50's still rolling around
02:41:27  <Flygon> Sadly, it's not the first time it happened
02:41:32  <Flygon> The Hitachi trains hit the same problem
02:41:43  <Flygon> But the problems didn't manifest as quickly/severely
02:41:55  <Flygon> (nonetheless, the buildiers of the Hitachi got booted in favor of Comeng)
02:42:23  <Flygon> (note, Hitachi didn't build the trains, they only supplied the motors and transmission iirc. Those parts were topnotch and never failed)
02:42:38  <Flygon> (so... Victoria has no beef with Hitachi themself. xP)
02:42:56  <sim-al2> Stainless steel can corrode in salty and wet conditions, but still there are cars 60+ years old running fine
02:43:07  <Flygon> Melbourne's very wet.
02:43:18  <Flygon> We're the Seattle of Australia
02:44:05  <sim-al2> Certainly, Amtrak has always bought stainless steel because the regular cars were rusting out after 20-30 years
02:44:21  <Flygon> (I do note, the A-class locomotives are rusting too... but the problems clearly not too bad if V/Line are running around 65 year old A66 without problem)
02:44:42  <sim-al2> Hmm, I've always liked the A's and B's
02:44:42  <Flygon> (albiet, sparingly. They want to use it only in case of N-class shortages)
02:45:00  <Flygon> The Bs and S's still run about
02:45:02  <sim-al2> If only they could have shoved a HEP motor in there
02:45:19  <Flygon> Ooh, yeah
02:45:25  <Flygon> I forgot they lack HEP...
02:45:39  <Flygon> It's too late to retrofit it now
02:45:48  <Flygon> The poor things need to be in a museum
02:45:50  <sim-al2> Yeah, that's really amazing, the US equivalents lived on into the 90's in commuter service but are pretty much gone except from the small railroads
02:46:07  *** supermop [] has joined #openttd
02:46:13  <Flygon> 'ey supermop
02:46:15  <Flygon> sim: *nod*
02:46:26  <sim-al2> Don't a lot of V/Line cars still have generators on them?
02:46:34  <Flygon> Yeah. It's kind of incredible to realize that the A-class is the last of it's kind (pax. bulldog nose)
02:46:47  <Flygon> V/Line cars? As in the carriages themselves?
02:47:03  <Flygon> Or a separate HEP equivilant carriage?
02:47:05  <sim-al2> Yeah, the H-sets I think had some
02:47:15  <supermop> bulldog?
02:47:17  <Flygon> If it's the latter, I think that's just for the Albury line, and A-class hauled sets
02:47:39  <Flygon> supermop:
02:47:56  <sim-al2> hnnggghhhh
02:48:28  <supermop> i'd love to buy a z1/2 headed to be scrapped and run it as a commuter special cafe car on the 96 rush hour
02:48:40  <supermop> bar in the evening
02:48:48  <supermop> store at north fitz depot
02:48:52  <Flygon> Issue with the Z1/2's is
02:48:54  <sim-al2> Oh sorry I was looking at the N types
02:49:03  <Flygon> Is that it's impossible to get spare parts for them
02:49:08  <Flygon> And they're literally rusting away
02:49:19  <Flygon> It'd be easier to just guy a personal E-Class Tram. I'm not kidding.
02:49:39  <sim-al2> No new types?
02:49:50  <Flygon> Unless you'd want to run the Z1/2's on a personal railway that isn't subject to Yarra Trams regulation
02:49:50  <supermop> there are a handful of private owned non working zs
02:49:57  <Flygon> sim: New types?
02:50:00  <Flygon> supermop: Aye
02:50:31  <sim-al2> I mean new carriages on order
02:50:38  <supermop> theres still 100-200 z1/2s out there mandated to be gradually scrapped/canabalized
02:50:59  <supermop> so there should be at least a short term supply of parts
02:51:27  <sim-al2> I mean the H-sets started life as EMU units
02:51:30  <Flygon> Oh
02:51:39  <supermop> z3 would be easier to keep running but don't think they are scrapping those anytime soon
02:51:42  <Flygon> No, I don't think V/Line is going to get any new carriages anymore
02:51:44  <Flygon> Only new DMUs
02:51:58  <Flygon> Actually, the Z3's are being rushed out as soon as possible
02:52:08  <Flygon> They're only being continued because, unlike the Z1/2's
02:52:15  <Flygon> They're parts compatible with the A and B's
02:52:37  <Flygon> Or - Yarra Trams doesn't want ANY High-Floor Trams
02:52:53  <sim-al2> Uhh any pages with info on the Z carriages?
02:53:11  <Flygon> sim: If it weren't for their exterior making it hard to fit a facade, I'd say the Comeng series would be a reasonable H-class replacement
02:53:16  <Flygon> But the Comeng are way more useful as EMUs
02:53:23  <Flygon> And if anything, will last another 20 years
02:53:55  <sim-al2> I suppose those could work, might have to do a lot of work to convert from 1500VDC power to (I assume) AC train supply
02:53:59  <Flygon> sim: I don't have my sources on me. These were posts on Railpage. x.x
02:54:09  <Flygon> Ehh...
02:54:18  <Flygon> The bodies of the Comeng are still perfectly cromulent
02:54:21  <Flygon> And a lot of other parts
02:54:41  <Flygon> Worst to worst, you put new motors in, other parts for AC, and bob's your uncle
02:56:20  <supermop> Zs, As, and Bs would already be illegal here
02:56:51  <Flygon> supermop: Where's 'here' again?
02:56:56  <supermop> but in semi-private use one could likely get a waiver
02:57:02  <supermop> the US generally
02:57:05  <Flygon> Gotcha
02:57:06  <supermop> under ADA
02:57:18  <Flygon> I like the B's, myself...
02:57:24  <Flygon> They're incredible beasts
02:57:37  <Flygon> I mean, if you HAD  to make them low floor
02:57:45  <Flygon> I'd say insert a low floor middle carriage
02:57:48  <sim-al2> High level platforms are a thing...
02:57:57  <supermop> chicago recently scrapped a bunch of L cars from the 80s with probably 30-40 more years left in them as they had bifold doors with center pivots
02:57:57  <Flygon> (I have worked with the disable, and know the frustration x: )
02:58:21  <Flygon> sim: The B1's were designed to have floor stairs that elevated at railway platforms
02:58:25  <supermop> the high level tram platforms are still lower than the high floor trams floors
02:58:29  <Flygon> But the feature was scrapped for the B2's
02:58:38  <Flygon> supermop: SCRAPPED??
02:58:39  <Flygon> ._.
02:58:43  <Flygon> What the hell
02:58:48  <supermop> well more dumped in the ocean
02:58:52  <supermop> than scrapped
02:58:56  <Flygon> Why didn't they sell them to other companies?
02:59:19  <Flygon> Melbourne could've made use of them, presuming affordable modification (particulary for 1500v and pantographization)
02:59:20  <sim-al2> You guys would love JR East, they plan on dumping their stuff every 15-20 years now
02:59:30  <supermop> ive had this discussion often, and basically, they would be illegal anywhere in the US or canada
02:59:42  <Flygon> And since they're American EMUs, they'd be crashworthy in Australia
02:59:54  <sim-al2> Ehh, L cars are small subway cars not great for long distances
03:00:17  <supermop> hard to find somewhere with standard gauge 600V 3rd rail thaat wants a 30 year old non hadicap accessible train
03:00:53  <supermop> basically only developing countries, but then its a bit patronizing to offload old equipment like that
03:00:58  <Flygon> sim: I was suggesting for urban use
03:01:00  <Flygon> Like...
03:01:04  <Flygon> The Sandringham line
03:01:18  <Flygon> supermop: They'd prefer having equipment over having none at all
03:01:22  <supermop> especially when it would come with an infrastructure bill so large
03:01:27  <sim-al2> Not a lot of cities have the space or money, New York does it's own thing and everyone has different system needs
03:01:36  * Flygon googles exactly what a centre pivot door is
03:01:57  <supermop> bifold doors
03:01:58  <Flygon> Oh jesus
03:02:03  <Flygon> Oh, bifold door?
03:02:04  <supermop> like on a b class
03:02:06  <supermop> but
03:02:16  <supermop> with a structural pillar in the center
03:02:22  * Flygon rubs forehead
03:02:24  <Flygon> Wow
03:02:26  <supermop> which can't be cut out
03:02:31  <Flygon> Okay, yeah. That wouldn't fly here either.
03:02:35  <Flygon> Still, in Africa...
03:02:40  <Flygon> They could still loco haul them
03:02:44  <Flygon> Or South America
03:02:48  <sim-al2> If it makes you feel better, the other 80's trains are still going to be in service for a long time
03:02:50  <Flygon> Or Asia
03:03:16  <sim-al2> Too much work for any of those when they could get mainline trains for a bout the same
03:03:20  <sim-al2> *cost
03:03:31  <Flygon> Hmm...
03:03:33  <Flygon> Alright
03:03:43  <sim-al2> See Chile and their EMUs basically being Spanish
03:03:47  <supermop> thats the thing though, most parts of asia with existing urban rail networks couldn't justify taking on a weird orphaned fleet
03:04:15  <supermop> places that could like phnom penh have no extant rail infrastructure
03:04:44  <Flygon> Hmm...
03:04:47  <Flygon> Still, in the end
03:04:49  <supermop> and if you are going to build a network from scratch, the trains themselves are insignificant
03:04:53  <Flygon> Dumping them into the ocean seems silly
03:04:59  <sim-al2> Japan's small railways tend to take the old stuff, but their own systems match the big system's design standards
03:05:09  <Flygon> Wouldn't you get more profit by scavenging the working parts, then using the rest as scrap metal?
03:05:09  <sim-al2> Artifical reef
03:05:16  <Flygon> Oh
03:05:22  <Flygon> I forgot artificial reefs are a thing
03:05:23  <sim-al2> They took the parts off and dumped the shells
03:05:30  <Flygon> Right, okay
03:05:32  <Flygon> THAT
03:05:36  <supermop> so why no sign a deal with a manufacturer for delivery and 30 years or maintenance with attractive financing
03:05:37  <Flygon> THAT makes sense.
03:06:23  <sim-al2> ^Supermop has is right, buying other people's castoffs doesn't sound as good as brand new
03:06:38  <supermop> taking on old trains that you have to repair yourself vs canada underwriting a loan for bombardier to provide new trains and service
03:06:50  <Flygon> Right, I forgot new trains tend to come with a warranty x.x
03:07:06  <Flygon> RE: Canada and Bombardier...
03:07:18  <Flygon> I am mildly surprised Canada hasn't gotten VLos manufactured there...
03:07:27  <supermop> even for a poor country or city, you find either the manufacturer or its host country making you an offer you cant refuse
03:07:48  <Flygon> Wouldn't Canada have a fair few Diesel interurban lines that could use a 160km/h train with the acceleration of a subway car? xP
03:07:48  <sim-al2> Canada's previous government didn't like that sort of thing
03:07:50  <supermop> kawasaki has a plant in new york
03:08:11  <Flygon> (I'd also find it amusing if they kept the VLocity name in Canada :B)
03:08:12  <sim-al2> Kinda of, the airport express trains have new Nippon Sharyo DMUs
03:08:26  <Flygon> Airport trains being DMUs? O_o
03:08:28  <Flygon> Only in Japan
03:08:31  <supermop> ^ home team cant win them all
03:08:37  <sim-al2> Hmmm, I'm talking Canada
03:08:44  <sim-al2> Toronto Pearson Express
03:08:58  <sim-al2> Also diesel airport train or no airport train
03:09:02  <supermop> N.S. does a ton of business in north america
03:09:20  <Flygon> Ooh, right
03:09:25  <supermop> in the US though, new york killed all of our train builders
03:09:28  <Flygon> Sorry, brainderped
03:09:29  <sim-al2> Yeah, they've gone full out here, Japan doesn't have the same growth it used to
03:09:46  <Flygon> I am very surprised Japan hasn't expanded more agressively into Australia
03:09:56  <Flygon> Then again, we have a poor history with Australia
03:10:07  <supermop> st louis car company, pullman, budd, all went under shortly after desperately grasping at a subway bid
03:10:14  <Flygon> Japan wanted to use Sydney's Double Decker EMU designs... I think they were cooperating with Comeng
03:10:28  <supermop> winning a contract that they could barely afford to meet
03:11:08  <Flygon> And then the Japanese company began having arguments with the Comeng engineers because Comeng kept saying "You can't do that! It'll make the train run worse/passenger flow worse", but Japanese half insisted that their way was better....
03:11:13  <sim-al2> St. Louis and Pullman had problems way before then, they were basically being kept alive by transit contracts since Amtrak had the old passenger cars the freight railroads offloaded onto them and no one else bought American type stock at that point
03:11:24  <Flygon> (Japanese DDs tend to have far worse passenger flow than Sydney's DDs...)
03:12:31  <sim-al2> Japan seems to have DD for mostly express service or as a complement to the longer distance suburban trains, they really need short station stops for commuter
03:12:43  <supermop> Flygon: i actually think the bombardier bilevels ubiqutous in north america unload easier than sydney
03:12:48  <Flygon> sim: *nod*
03:12:57  <Flygon> supermop: I admit I'm not entirely familiar with their design
03:13:08  <supermop> sydney trains are a bizarre choice for an urban rail system
03:13:31  <Flygon> It was built because it was cheaper than upgrading the lines
03:13:43  <supermop> similiar layout but bigger areas at platform height
03:13:43  <Flygon> Or: We designed the worlds first DDEMUs out of laziness
03:13:47  <Flygon> That's the Austraaalian waaay~
03:13:53  <sim-al2> Here's a long distance cross-Tokyo suburban type:
03:14:09  <Flygon> Heheh, that random DD hump
03:14:11  <supermop> smaller doors but easier to get to the vestibule internally
03:14:40  <supermop> i've ridden one of those sets
03:14:47  <supermop> green car was in the DD part
03:14:58  <supermop> was on a chuo line limited
03:16:00  <Flygon> Nice
03:16:30  <sim-al2> One of these?
03:17:11  <sim-al2> I can't think of what bilevels have run on the Chuo line
03:17:30  <Flygon> Note on the lead car
03:17:37  <Flygon> How the lower deck is unaccessible
03:17:41  <sim-al2> Although the rapid trains will get bilevels added to them in a few years, for 12 car sets
03:17:44  <Flygon> Guess where all the equipment is
03:17:51  <sim-al2> The lead car has the resistors there
03:17:57  <Flygon> Yeah
03:18:08  <sim-al2> Like a NS DDM
03:18:15  <supermop> first one you linked
03:18:23  <supermop> or similar
03:18:28  <supermop> circa 2004
03:18:48  <supermop> havent seen on that service since then
03:18:49  <sim-al2> Hmmm, Chuo rapid right, and not out in the boonies?
03:19:32  <supermop> it ran way out there, but i only hopped on from Tokyo to shinjuku
03:19:51  <sim-al2> On the 215, the end cars have the resistors and the field-weaking electronics there, and motors on that car and the car next to it
03:20:12  <supermop> had a green rail pass and feet were tired so grabbed that as it was the least absurd way to reserve a seat for such a short trip
03:20:27  <sim-al2>
03:21:46  <Flygon> Anywya
03:21:48  <Flygon> Anyway*
03:21:55  <Flygon> IRL stuff time. Thank you!
03:22:04  <sim-al2> bye :(
03:22:42  <supermop> japanese catenary always looks so sturdy in these photos
03:23:04  <supermop> i know its mostly the angle and lens length used but still
03:23:05  <sim-al2> It probably is, they run 1500 VDC in most city areas
03:23:46  <sim-al2> Also earthquakes, and maybe the slightly smaller (but normal proporrtion) trains
03:23:48  <supermop> looks much more engineered than most of the almost trolley wire stuff you see elsewhere
03:24:29  <sim-al2> Well it does have 3 to 4 pantographs being pulled across it, sometimes more on the older subway trains
03:25:50  <sim-al2> And the occasional locomotive on the JR lines
03:26:15  <sim-al2> Lots of compound catenary too
03:26:31  <supermop> whats odd is that so many lines have essentially custom/bespoke stock there
03:27:06  <supermop> like JR or tokyo metro will place an order designed and built for a single service
03:27:29  <sim-al2> JR East seems to have gotten the best cut of the JNR system, and they have money~~~~ to spend for perfect efficiency
03:27:53  <supermop> so you have these weird outliers like ginza and marunouchi lines that are 3rd rail
03:28:13  <sim-al2> It helps that they actually own a rolling stock factory and actually use lots of standard parts and designs
03:28:30  <supermop> you'd thenk they'd order the same trains for the two of those at least, but there are actually slight differences
03:28:44  <supermop> yeah
03:28:54  <sim-al2> Ginza predated almost everything though
03:29:15  <supermop> and a lot of the workhorse emus from a given time look pretty similar
03:29:31  <sim-al2> I think they would have to raise streets to get enough room for mainline stock
03:29:46  <supermop> but most special or rapid services get at least a custom aesthetic design
03:30:00  <supermop> they can do it there
03:30:39  <sim-al2> If you look at the express units, they tend to share traction systems and other stuff with the contemporary commuter stock
03:30:55  <supermop> they were taking down the expressway between ginza and shiodome piece by piece last time i was there
03:31:12  <sim-al2> That sounds like a mess
03:31:44  <sim-al2> For example, the new E353 ( has E233 traction equipment
03:31:46  <supermop> yeah - but in most of the world, you'd never get the special body shell or cab ends for such a small batch
03:33:01  <sim-al2> They really want to keep people interested
03:33:30  <supermop> i'm happy to see the commitment to industrial design at the institutional level
03:33:46  *** rahtgaz [] has quit [Quit: I'll be Bach]
03:34:28  <supermop> oing to go watch seinfeld reruns
03:34:43  <sim-al2> JR West is kinda interesting because they actually have to compete hard core with the other railways around Osaka
03:35:44  <sim-al2> At one point they were trying to cut lines
03:38:42  *** glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
03:56:32  *** TheDude [~Thed@2a02:2b88:2:1::3dee:1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:57:25  *** __ln___ [~lauri@2001:2003:f22a:4600:250:43ff:fe01:4a71] has joined #openttd
03:59:22  *** __ln__ [~lauri@2001:2003:f22a:4600:250:43ff:fe01:4a71] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:00:47  *** supermop [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:01:36  *** TheDude [] has joined #openttd
04:16:27  *** Pulec [~pulec@2a01:4f8:110:1463:127::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:19:19  *** Pulec [~pulec@] has joined #openttd
05:10:53  <Flygon> Derp
05:11:31  <Flygon> sim-al2: In the end, Victoria needs three things...
05:11:39  <Flygon> 1. Mass Standard Gaugization
05:12:55  <Flygon> 2. 25kvization of the overhead, alongside extending electrification to the main interurban line terminuses (which'll place the fate of the existing VLos in an interesting position. Unless they are repurposed to 100% replace the XPTs and boost NSW's regional pax)
05:13:19  <Flygon> 3. Mass purchase of 200-220km/h EMUs to go with the above for V/Line
05:16:13  <sim-al2> $$$
05:16:28  <Flygon> That's the thing...
05:16:35  <Flygon> At least, with standardization at bare minimum
05:16:44  <Flygon> Standardization won't push back more than a few billion...
05:16:52  <Flygon> Waaay cheaper than this Metro tunnel they're pushing
05:17:07  <Flygon> And all existing rollingstock is designed for SG anyway
05:17:13  <Flygon> Even the Steam Locomotives are
05:17:34  <Flygon> Except for the remaining pre-1940s designs in active use (which boils down to the K-class)
05:18:10  <sim-al2> I'm sure the steam locomotives are not the state government's priority in line design anyway
05:18:17  <Flygon> (which's a shame, because, I'd dare say the K-Class represents the bare workhorse attitude of VR's steam locos)
05:18:19  <Flygon> Aye
05:18:42  <Flygon> And it's not too hard to preserve a few tourist lines
05:18:44  <Flygon> And, in theory
05:19:09  <Flygon> A few of these steam locos can be reengineered for SG... it's just not as easy as shifting the wheels by 165mm
05:21:35  <sim-al2> How much of the lines will be doable though? You would need to regauge all the rolling stock and the locomotives too
05:27:00  <sim-al2> I imagine changing over all the freight stock won't be cheap
05:34:45  <sim-al2>
05:40:16  <Flygon> sim: Actually, the entire POINT would be to make freight cheaper
05:40:30  <Flygon> Interstate Railroads have a surplus of rollingstock...
05:40:36  <Flygon> It'd be very easy for them to bring it to VIC
05:40:51  <Flygon> The most difficult step would be converting the Metro lines
05:42:01  <Flygon> Oooh
05:42:04  <Flygon> Washington-Baltimore
05:42:07  <Flygon> Exciting news
05:43:06  <sim-al2> It's nice and all, but it almost certianly will hurt the prospects for fixing up the NEC tunnels in the Baltimore area
05:43:21  <sim-al2> *assuming it actually happens
05:44:38  <sim-al2> Although the fact that the Japanese government would help fund it is rather interesting
05:56:02  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
05:56:17  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
06:27:12  <Flygon> Oh no...
06:27:21  <Flygon> sin-al2: I think A66's finally carked it :(
06:27:51  <Flygon> <Konaro> sounding like the end finally for A66?
06:27:51  <Flygon> <Konaro> Friday: The 17:59 Southern Cross - Bacchus Marsh is operating as a coach due to a train fault
06:27:51  <Flygon> <Konaro> Thursday: The 17:59 Southern Cross - Bacchus Marsh will be operating as a 3 carriage VLocity train today
06:27:51  <Flygon> <Konaro> Wednesday: The 17:59 Southern Cross - Bacchus Marsh will be operating at a reduced capacity
06:27:51  <Flygon> <Konaro> Tuesday: 17:59 SCS - Bacchus Marsh service is operating at reduced capacity as 3 carriages instead of 6 carriages.
06:35:23  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
06:41:22  <sim-al2> Flygon: Is there an Aus rail channel?
06:41:30  <Flygon> Well
06:41:54  <Flygon> It's more an offshoot of an unrelated channel, and it's largely in a different IRC network, and it's International
06:42:02  <Flygon> But it is chockers with Aussie train buffs
06:42:08  <Flygon> Dunno how much you like furries tho
06:43:12  <sim-al2> It's certainly not the only EMD to blow up at some point
06:45:24  *** Hiddenfunstuff [] has joined #openttd
06:46:37  <Flygon> Welll....
06:46:41  <Flygon> It IS almost 70 years old
06:46:44  <Flygon> Running off spare parts
06:47:03  <Flygon> And in fact, it's kind of cobbled together from parts of a trillion locomotives by now
06:47:11  <sim-al2> They did put a new engine in the 1980's though
06:47:24  <Flygon> The only remaining thing that's truly almost 70 years old is the FRAME and shell
06:47:36  <Flygon> But, yeah. It's ancient by Diesel standards.
06:47:43  <Flygon> Even with it's mid-life refurb
06:47:47  <sim-al2> Hence it became an "A", 12 cylinder turbo 645 instead of 16 cylinder roots-blower 567
06:48:32  <sim-al2> Ehhh, tons of EMDs from the 60's and 70's around the world are still in service
06:48:44  <sim-al2> They are incredibly tough engines
06:49:02  <Flygon> Mm
06:49:38  <Flygon> A fair few B and S's (for the uninformed, they're un-renewed A-classes... or, A-classes without their mid-life refurb/upgrade) are still running around
06:49:43  <sim-al2> Also helps that the N class are basically the same locomotive
06:49:43  <Flygon> As well as the ever utterly unkillable T
06:49:56  <Flygon> Yeah. N-class parts can be scavenged too, for some parts
06:50:08  <Flygon> Either way...
06:50:12  <sim-al2> Yeah, B's are double cab, S's single with a shunting cab on the other end
06:50:16  <Flygon> The remaining A's V/Line has really need to be museumed
06:50:25  <sim-al2> Isn't there one left?
06:50:30  <Flygon> As in, the ones that're taken apart also donated to a proper heratage group
06:50:35  <Flygon> V/Line has four on the register
06:50:39  <Flygon> But only one operating
06:50:56  <Flygon> iirc, one's 'able' to be reativated, and two are literally taken apart
06:51:02  <Flygon> But this is very shaky memory
06:51:16  <Flygon> I just know that they have four, but three are incapable of running without great effort
06:52:07  <sim-al2> I suppose they can't be bothered to buy some other locomotives to use?
06:56:17  <sim-al2> Well I'm off to bed, good night
06:58:44  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
07:12:13  *** sim-al2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:15:38  <Flygon> Shit, I got distracted
07:15:57  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
07:32:05  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
07:44:27  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
07:58:22  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
08:21:39  *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
08:21:42  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
08:24:47  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
08:24:59  <Alberth> moin
08:36:03  <andythenorth> ho
08:36:10  <andythenorth> this Arctic Basic economy is mostly oil-based
08:36:15  <andythenorth> but no oil rigs until 1967 :P
08:36:20  <andythenorth> somewhat limiting? o_O
08:38:02  <Alberth> ha :)
08:38:10  <Alberth> just move recommended start date? :)
08:38:13  <andythenorth> maybe :P
08:38:28  <andythenorth> or adjust the oil rig date, or put the oil wells back
08:38:36  <andythenorth> ‘but Andy, there are no oil wells in Norway’ :P
08:39:01  <Alberth> sure there are, just look at the screen :p
08:39:56  <Alberth> you'd need forests if you want to do norway :)
08:40:56  <Alberth> hmm, eceonomy around one or a few primary industries
08:41:13  <Alberth> ie all wood things, or all oil things
08:41:13  <andythenorth> that’s what I’ve done
08:41:25  <andythenorth> by accident, there are very few primaries
08:41:34  <andythenorth> it’s a high-value manufacturing economy :P
08:41:46  <andythenorth>
08:41:57  <andythenorth> the flowchart is very distorted because of that :)
08:43:07  <Alberth> he, some arrows are in the wrong direction :p
08:43:38  <Alberth> you could start with iron ore and forests until 1967 ?
08:44:45  <Alberth> livestock appears out of the blue?
09:03:50  <peter1138> morning
09:04:15  <Alberth> o/
09:10:43  <andythenorth> ha ha
09:10:45  <andythenorth> no farms :P
09:10:46  <andythenorth> oops
09:11:15  <andythenorth> that breaks my savegame :)
09:19:14  <planetmaker> moin
09:22:01  <Alberth> ieks  "svn add ...."    :p
09:22:14  <Alberth> doing too much git :p
09:22:26  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
09:25:35  <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r27450 trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp (2015-11-20 10:25:27 +0100 )
09:25:36  <DorpsGek> -Feature[FS#6391](r27446): Lower the sell-chain button in the train depot GUI while dragging a vehicle over it. (Eearslya)
09:27:35  <planetmaker> working all day with git now, too, Alberth ?
09:28:07  <planetmaker> hm, nice feature
09:30:24  <Alberth> pretty much
09:35:44  *** liq3 [] has quit []
09:50:46  <Alberth> planetmaker: can we decide something for 6241? (FS#6241 - Move sprite ten units at a time in sprite aligner if ctrl is pressed)   8 seems the simplest?
09:52:15  <peter1138> 8 is nearer 10
09:53:01  <planetmaker> as said back then: both 8 and 16 seem fine to me and I can't say I have a preference for either.
09:53:30  <Alberth> well, theoretically, 8 can cost you 3 extra clicks, and 16 can cost you 7 clicks :p
09:53:31  <planetmaker> So... 8? Then it's 8 moves across a tile
09:53:57  <planetmaker> well, then it's 8 :)
09:56:22  <Alberth> sounds good to me :)
10:04:34  <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r27451 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt newgrf_debug_gui.cpp) (2015-11-20 11:04:28 +0100 )
10:04:35  <DorpsGek> -Feature[FS#6241]: Move sprite 8 positions in sprite aligner with ctrl+click. (based on work by juzza1)
10:06:58  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
10:07:07  <Wolf01> o/
10:08:23  <Alberth> moin
10:17:49  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
10:44:01  *** Pulec [~pulec@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:49:03  *** Pulec [~pulec@] has joined #openttd
11:07:04  *** andythenorth [~Andy@] has joined #openttd
11:08:38  <Wolf01> o/
11:08:49  <andythenorth> o/
11:10:59  <__ln___>     ~~~~~~~~^~~~
11:12:38  <Wolf01> quick andy, get out of the water
11:22:32  *** Pulec [~pulec@] has quit [Quit: Pulce sezrali]
11:22:36  *** Pulec [~pulec@2a01:4f8:110:1463:127::2] has joined #openttd
11:30:03  *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd []
11:38:20  *** andythenorth [~Andy@] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
11:46:09  *** andythenorth [~Andy@] has joined #openttd
11:46:21  *** andythenorth [~Andy@] has quit []
11:59:16  <__ln___>     _IÏ___T__T___
11:59:16  <__ln___> ~~~~\___________/~~~~
12:00:11  *** mykoserocin [] has joined #openttd
12:01:10  <Wolf01> __ln___, feeling artist today?
12:01:52  <__ln___> maybe it's because i'm idle while the computer is compiling
12:02:13  <Wolf01>
12:02:23  <__ln___> preciesly
12:02:32  <__ln___> -cisely even
12:03:42  <peter1138> Clearly I need a slower computer.
12:04:32  <Wolf01> instead i'm here, trying to figure out how to refactor some classes of my game
12:06:05  <Wolf01> i need to eat a bowl full of SRP (single responability principle) before laying down the code sometimes
12:06:23  <Wolf01> *responsibility
12:06:39  <Wolf01> also i need to sleep more
12:07:27  *** sla_ro|master [] has joined #openttd
12:30:43  *** Supercheese [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:31:19  *** Supercheese [] has joined #openttd
12:36:57  *** Pulec [~pulec@2a01:4f8:110:1463:127::2] has quit [Quit: Pulce sezrali]
12:38:28  *** Pulec [~pulec@2a01:4f8:110:1463:127::2] has joined #openttd
12:41:58  *** eQualizer [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:42:52  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
12:47:09  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
12:51:49  *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@] has joined #openttd
13:19:42  *** eQualizer [] has joined #openttd
13:21:22  *** SpComb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:36:33  *** DDR [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:23:22  *** roidal [] has joined #openttd
14:27:16  *** glx [] has joined #openttd
14:27:19  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
14:34:08  *** shirish [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
14:57:55  *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
14:57:58  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
15:11:02  *** sim-al2 [] has joined #openttd
15:32:25  *** gnu_jj [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:34:05  *** andythenorth [~Andy@] has joined #openttd
15:35:57  <Alberth> o/
15:37:27  <Eearslya> meow
15:38:44  <peter1138> Hmm, I need some new strings for my violin...
15:38:50  <andythenorth> gut a cat
15:39:01  * andythenorth is not serious, remembering the channel is logged
15:41:12  <peter1138> Clearly.
15:49:03  *** SpComb [] has joined #openttd
16:06:03  *** sim-al2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:06:17  * andythenorth has feature requests
16:06:23  <andythenorth> is there somewhere I could add them?
16:07:32  <Alberth> bug tracker?
16:07:51  <Alberth> channel log?
16:08:11  <Alberth> suggestions forum?
16:08:31  <Alberth> your list of things to do
16:09:02  <andythenorth> :P
16:14:54  *** Pensacola [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
16:30:52  <Eddi|zuHause> suggest a suggestion box
16:33:33  <andythenorth> neat idea
16:33:39  <andythenorth> we could have an approval process
16:38:52  *** Wormnest [] has joined #openttd
16:46:08  *** sim-al2 [] has joined #openttd
16:56:47  <M-E> huh. usually the answer is 'DIY' in OS-related communities :P
16:56:58  *** Cybertinus [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04:31  *** gelignite [] has joined #openttd
17:09:11  *** sim-al2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:18:32  *** Arveen [] has joined #openttd
17:26:02  *** SpComb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:28:44  *** roidal_ [] has joined #openttd
17:33:36  *** roidal [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:36:14  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
17:36:45  *** rahtgaz [] has joined #openttd
17:39:04  *** andythenorth [~Andy@] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
17:43:52  *** Cybertinus [] has joined #openttd
17:44:27  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:49:43  *** TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
17:50:04  *** liq3 [] has joined #openttd
18:08:56  *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd []
18:09:36  *** eM [] has joined #openttd
18:15:36  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:15:43  *** M-E [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:18:44  *** M-E [] has joined #openttd
18:24:07  *** Defaultti [] has quit [Quit: Quitting.]
18:24:57  *** eM [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:36:44  *** eM [] has joined #openttd
18:40:54  *** gnu_jj [] has joined #openttd
18:42:40  *** M-E [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:45:17  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27452 trunk/src/lang/russian.txt (2015-11-20 19:45:10 +0100 )
18:45:18  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:19  <DorpsGek> russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:49:41  *** gnu_jj [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:55:22  *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium]
19:00:10  *** sim-al2 [] has joined #openttd
19:14:57  *** Defaultti [] has joined #openttd
19:15:58  *** mykoserocin [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:16:05  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
19:16:25  <andythenorth> o/
19:20:21  <Eearslya> meow
19:20:27  <Eearslya> What were your feature ideas anyway?
19:22:36  <andythenorth> can’t remember
19:23:01  <andythenorth> @seen Zuu
19:23:01  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 20 hours, 33 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <Zuu> __ln__: Sure. And the price is not that bad if you would use VS a lot at work. But it said also that it provided some additional features present in todays VS for older versions.
19:31:02  * andythenorth wonders about a ‘hide all’ windows hotkey, for use during construction
19:31:23  <andythenorth> photoshop, you can hit tab key, and all the palettes are hidden, which is essential when drawing on a small screen
19:31:55  <andythenorth> on 2x zoom, windows obscure the landscape too much to build easily, especially the station window, which also can’t be window-shaded
19:33:21  <Eearslya> Hmm, I know that was a feature on the android mobile port, where hitting 'go to' on an order window would hide all windows until a station was selected
19:33:35  <Eearslya> Not sure how/if that translates to the real thing
19:46:09  *** gnu_jj [] has joined #openttd
19:52:11  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
19:54:52  *** lugo [] has joined #openttd
19:56:48  * andythenorth needs a GS :P
19:56:58  <andythenorth> need to play a FIRS test game :)
20:08:31  *** Klanticus [~quassel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:10:11  *** sim-al2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:14:04  *** Supercheese [] has quit [Quit: Valete omnes]
20:15:21  *** Wormnest_ [] has joined #openttd
20:22:27  *** Wormnest [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:28:14  *** Biolunar [] has joined #openttd
20:57:13  *** Pensacola [~quassel@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:00:52  <mikegrb> hmmm this station picked a bad place to call
21:01:27  <mikegrb> he's working rtty split on 7047 and all of a sudden wiped out by QST QST QST DE W1AW W1AW
21:06:11  *** ToBeFree [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:07:35  *** Arveen [] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 -]
21:28:46  <mikegrb> worked my first split dx station!
21:29:05  <mikegrb> Sint Maarten DXCC 518 on 7047.997 rtty
21:29:42  *** ToBeFree [] has joined #openttd
21:30:02  <mikegrb> woah that was all in the wrong channel, sorry guys :p
21:30:42  *** roidal_ [] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.2]
21:31:11  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
21:33:23  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
22:05:00  <Eearslya> I was..very confused for a moment
22:05:20  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
22:05:29  <Eearslya> Beginning to wonder if OTTD had even more to it that I didn't know
22:10:43  *** FLHerne [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:10:45  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
22:14:46  *** FLHerne [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:15:08  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
22:21:14  *** Rejf [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:21:27  *** Rejf [] has joined #openttd
22:27:21  *** FLHerne [] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!]
22:45:00  *** Rejf_ [] has joined #openttd
22:45:00  *** Rejf_ [] has quit []
22:47:31  *** sim-al2 [] has joined #openttd
22:58:53  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
23:10:45  *** SpComb^ [] has joined #openttd
23:19:44  *** sla_ro|master [] has quit []
23:27:01  *** Hiddenfunstuff [] has quit [Quit:  HydraIRC -> <- Go on, try it!]
23:30:01  *** Wormnest_ [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:36:30  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
23:36:32  <drac_boy> hi
23:36:55  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:37:38  <drac_boy> sim-a12 or flygon either of you not asleep over keyboard? heh :)
23:43:03  <sim-al2> Oh hi
23:43:12  <drac_boy> how're you?
23:43:20  <sim-al2> I'm good
23:46:27  <drac_boy> sim-a12 btw what you think of this "ship"? heh
23:47:05  <sim-al2> What is that?
23:47:14  <drac_boy> marine V8 engine (probably rerated in some way) .. only one lone example was ever made when they had been thinking of making several models in production rate :-s
23:47:45  <drac_boy> wiki not surprisingly has some info
23:48:37  *** DDR [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:48:45  <drac_boy> the turret-like cab was rather interesting .. better rearview/shunting view than the like of eg EMD FT
23:50:52  <sim-al2> I can't tell if the cab is particularly high or the hood lower than normal
23:51:02  <sim-al2> Seems a little bit of both
23:53:14  <drac_boy> sim-a12 and of course the pre-1960's was an interesting era of locomotives built for specific tasks (instead of being a bit good at everything aka General Purpose heh) ...
23:53:39  <drac_boy> thats a Lima T-2500 .. aka a low speed "haul everything but the sink" heavyweight :)
23:53:55  <drac_boy> usually found in yard transfer tasks but also a bit of other things alike to that too
23:54:18  <drac_boy> the "little" blue car parked nearby gives you an idea
23:57:01  <sim-al2> EMD had an earlier attempt to improve visibility before the GP: the BL2
23:58:11  <drac_boy> heh the BL2 sorta still missed it with the engineer having to get out of seat to see to the left past the high hood .. but it was a honest attempt nevertheless .. still useful for reversing at straight speeds
23:58:47  <drac_boy> probably still would had been turned over to a RS-1 or any SW*** for yard shufflings

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk