Log for #openttd on 22nd November 2015:
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01:32:12  <Wolf01> 'night
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02:43:04  <drac_boy> long night but meh :-s heh
02:48:27  * drac_boy wonders if flygon wants a tumbleweed :P
02:52:36  <Flygon> Nature called
02:52:49  <Flygon> Also was distracted by an American in the other network
02:54:03  <drac_boy> heh ok..not sure I want know what "other" is but then :)
02:54:33  <Flygon> It starts with #train
02:55:06  <drac_boy> what you doing atm anyhow?
02:56:20  <Flygon> Trying to find a French speaker
02:56:25  <Flygon> I need two sentences translated
02:56:29  <drac_boy> I see, can't really help you sorry
02:56:43  <Flygon> Not that sort of Canadian? xP
02:56:57  <drac_boy> canadian can be english you silly aussie ;)
02:57:06  <Flygon> I know :P
03:02:06  <drac_boy> btw flygon about wasn't for same kind of reason but some of the 'smaller' big railroads in usa before used to decide to completely repower (sometimes same traction motors, sometimes even that got replaced too) their road switcher for a bit more hp to deal with the newer freight services
03:03:40  <Flygon> Makes sense
03:04:08  <drac_boy> so you could end up with something like this being replenished with a cummins turbo 6-inline (smaller yet better, strange isn't that sometimes?)
03:04:45  <drac_boy> oh and on a slight related note its a weird thing but a lot of the early diesels that were sold for shunting or branchline duty often really got assigned to mainline trains (whether these had setouts to do enroute or not)
03:05:13  <drac_boy> nothing like seeing a cummins-sounding V1000 doing 80kph with a mixed freight train :)
03:05:22  <drac_boy> VO1000*
03:06:10  <Flygon> That happened here with the Y-Classes...
03:06:23  <Flygon> They were build for little used branchlines (65km/h, 480hpish)
03:06:36  <Flygon> Then as soon as the production run was completed, the branchlines shut down
03:06:41  <Flygon> So they were repurposed for shunting
03:06:53  <Flygon> Then VR tried to find a more economical use for them...
03:06:57  <Flygon> So they reassigned them for freight
03:07:05  <Flygon> Then VR needed more passenger services on the mainlines...
03:07:39  <Flygon> Predictably, the programme to have a 65km/h severely underpowered 25 year old loco hauling peak hour services on the mainlines was underappreciated by the public.
03:11:50  <drac_boy> heh well if "peak hour" mean more than four axle-ac coaches then umm yeah we do indeed have a problem here? :)
03:13:43  <Flygon> Three of them
03:14:00  <Flygon> But... considering the same consists were being hauled by Ns and A-Class locos (2500hp 115km/h...)
03:14:26  <Flygon> Even the T/P-Classes hauling the same sets were far quicker (900-1100hp 100km/h)
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03:16:43  <drac_boy> flygon btw took me a while to find it but heres one of the so-called mainline-running "switcher"
03:17:16  <Flygon> That's a shunter?...
03:17:17  <drac_boy> ex-steam headlights (that explains their big size) aside to light-backed numberboards (a real shunter doesn't need these as the operator towers would rarely be seeing such units)
03:17:23  <Flygon> Looks like a bloody T-Class to me
03:20:57  <drac_boy> well flygon many of these just ran around at like 5-30kph .. some of them did share similar gearings from the geep due to similar trucks tho
03:21:21  * Flygon nod
03:21:26  <drac_boy> but for mainline they were never designed for that (lot worser if its the cab facing forward as theres only one thin sheetmetal between a crash and the engineer's seat)
03:21:28  <Flygon> It just looks extremely oversized for a shunter, is all
03:21:39  <Flygon> Most were designed to be tiny af here
03:22:01  <Flygon> Hence why most tended to have just 40hp
03:22:03  <drac_boy> flygon well its as small as it could be especially as the last 2-3 feet in front is taken up by a shutterable radiator .. and the non-engine part probably need a bit of its own space too
03:22:35  <Flygon> Shutterable radiator?
03:22:38  <drac_boy> the  vents-inclusive side door panels probably hints to how small the engine is
03:22:51  <Flygon> I think the smallest here were just air-cooled
03:22:57  <drac_boy> flygon..yeah there were blind-like vertical shutters in front of the radiator ... mainly to avoid running too cold
03:23:10  <Flygon> Riight right, it snows there
03:27:49  <drac_boy> btw flygon took me a while to find a non-black one (which was usually the cheap default) but here if that works
03:28:11  <drac_boy> since engine's off the shutters are completely closed naturally
03:28:26  <drac_boy> otherwise they would be parallel to the sides and you'll be watching the big fan spinning in front of you :)
03:28:54  * Flygon nod
03:28:58  <Flygon> Just a note, man
03:29:02  <Flygon> I gotta do IRL stuff in a few mins x3
03:29:04  <Flygon> Shopping ect
03:29:26  <drac_boy> I'm going sleep soon too next time ok?
03:29:30  <Flygon> Aye!
03:29:33  <Flygon> See ya again
03:29:35  <drac_boy> and btw I dunno if the aussie ones had same thing but here well...
03:30:20  <drac_boy> the emd FT (and some F3 till they finally automated that) had manual shutters on the sides so you had to have the fireman running back to close them when going into long tunnel .. open them when running hot in open ... close them when train came to a long stop (even in summer)
03:30:35  <drac_boy> but anyway talk about that next time :P have fun shipping ;)
03:31:44  * drac_boy throws some empty shopping bags at flygon?
03:31:44  <drac_boy> :)
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04:15:07  <Flygon> Back
04:33:33  <sim-al2> T class is basically an Aussie EMD G8
04:34:33  <sim-al2> EMDs no matter the type tended to have very similar lines
04:36:08  <Flygon> sim-al2: Basically? It's practically the same vehicle.
04:36:28  <sim-al2> Different roofs over time though
04:36:30  <Flygon> Though the Aussie ones seem to've lasted longest in commission
04:36:37  <Flygon> And by that I mean, they're still being used 65 years later
04:36:50  <Flygon> I'm half expecting them to continue to be used until they're 100 years old for freight...
04:38:16  <sim-al2> Also the change from 567 to 645 over production life
04:42:32  <sim-al2> It is interesting that all the current Aussie diesel locomotives being built are for mainlines only
05:37:04  <Flygon> Well...
05:37:14  <Flygon> Think of it this way, sim
05:37:27  <Flygon> The need to shunt has been SIGNIFICANTLY lowered as time has gone on
05:37:32  <Flygon> And is only really used for freght
05:37:35  <Flygon> freight*
05:38:01  <Flygon> And it's simply easier and more convenient to use the same sort of locomotives for everything rather than having shunters sitting about
05:38:13  <Flygon> And even then, we have a lot of perfectly functional shunters sitting about
05:38:36  <Flygon> From a Victorian perspective, at least, you have all the 1950s and 60s shunters VR built
05:38:42  <Flygon> And the Y-Classes
05:38:49  <sim-al2> They aren't young though, and unlike the US there's been no major rebuilds for many of them
05:38:51  <Flygon> And the T/P-Class locos are pretty decent shunters
05:38:54  <Flygon> True
05:39:09  <Flygon> Still, it does reflect the fact that it's simply easier for everyone to shunt using mainline locos
05:39:34  <Flygon> I really must say though
05:39:43  <Flygon> I am not entirely familiar with operations outside of Victoria
05:39:55  <sim-al2> True, pure switchers here are pretty much gone, in favor of units that can at least try to do road jobs too
05:39:57  <Flygon> We're kind of a galapagos of Australian rail operations
05:40:35  <sim-al2> Dat QR narrow gauge though
05:40:41  <sim-al2> * and WA
05:41:14  <Flygon> WA's a bit of a mixed bunch
05:41:28  <Flygon> The Pilbura (North-West of the state) uses SG lines
05:41:39  <Flygon> And carry some incredible axle loads along with that
05:41:47  <Flygon> The NG segment is just near where Perth is
05:42:02  <Flygon> The regional that DOES exist going out of Perth is mostly just SG, and tied in with the line to Sydney
05:42:09  <sim-al2> Pliabra is straight up NA heavy haul
05:42:18  <Flygon> Queensland is it's own galapagos network though
05:42:22  <Flygon> Yeah, exactly
05:42:38  <Flygon> I am a bit surprised they did Diesel instead of 50kv electric
05:43:18  <sim-al2> I suppose the lower inital cost was more important, and probably wise given the drop in ore prices recently
05:43:30  <Flygon> Then again
05:43:52  <Flygon> The tropical cyclones and the fact that they built for utterly absurd axle loadings might've simply made way op Diesels more economical
05:44:17  <sim-al2> It's not like you can't ballast an electric locomotive, see the IORE
05:44:35  <Flygon> Oh, no
05:44:36  <sim-al2> Or the South African 50kv heavy haul
05:44:42  <Flygon> It's not for ballasting
05:45:05  <Flygon> It's simply that the wagons are that heavy and there's no harm in making a Diesel loco absurdly heavy too for sheer extra Tim Taylor power xP
05:45:19  <Flygon> Also with 50kv, I was actually thinking of the Najavo line
05:45:44  <sim-al2> Need that starting effort to move trains of that size, especially once the track gets a little dusty/wet
05:46:00  <Flygon> Yeah
05:46:00  <sim-al2> They add ballast to the diesels too
05:46:12  <Flygon> I do note, Victoria had some interesting experiences with this
05:46:21  <Flygon> When we built the 1500vDC line to Traralgon
05:46:32  <Flygon> (Coal Briquette traffic)
05:46:43  <sim-al2> Example: the Santa Fe bought Dash 9 locomotives that weighted 395,000 lbs, while I believe some BNSF coal units were up around 415,000 lbs
05:46:56  <Flygon> We ordered the most powerful electric locomotives possible, that fit inside a 17t/axle limit
05:47:16  <Flygon> This caused a lot of arguments between VR designers and English Electric (whom helped in designing and manufacturing)
05:47:33  <Flygon> EE kept saying "The locomotives don't have enough weight! You'll never stop wheelspinning!"
05:47:44  <Flygon> VR insisted they wanted precisely what they demanded
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05:48:08  <Flygon> Unsurprisingly, the machines tended to wheelslip quite badly with heavier briquette loads... which VR fixed by simply adding a second L-class loco on
05:48:32  <Flygon> Because apperantly the solution to having too much power is to add more power (and traction) xP
05:48:48  <Flygon> They made excellent passenger locos, however
05:49:04  <Flygon> And would actually substitute suburban services if the EMUs sometimes carked it
05:49:12  <sim-al2> Adhesive weight, although I'm sure those trains kept up much better with double the power
05:49:21  <Flygon> So, in that sense, they were so overpowered they could fill in our equivilant of a subway EMU xP
05:49:57  <Flygon> But, yeah. They had very little adhesive weight for the intended traffic, but they worked extremely well otherwise
05:50:12  <Flygon> Just a shame the Geelong electrification never got off the ground (VR ran out of money)
05:50:30  <Flygon> They were the most powerful locomotives in the state until the G-Class came around the late 1970s
05:51:07  <Flygon> And even then, by today's standards
05:51:10  <Flygon> Despite being 60 years old
05:51:17  <Flygon> They're incredibly powerful
05:51:51  * Flygon scratches head
05:52:03  <Flygon> I'm not sure what it was with VR and making incredible machines that couldn't go anywhere...
05:52:14  <Flygon> I mean, you know about the H-Class, right?
05:52:42  <sim-al2> Those did have a specific role in mind though
05:54:04  <Flygon> Yeah
05:54:06  <Flygon> Shame about WWII
05:54:25  <Flygon> But even then... if they were still able to be around proper for the 1950s and standardized
05:54:32  <Flygon> They would've been incredibly useful for traffic to Sydney
05:54:50  <sim-al2> Oh different H class :)
05:55:10  <Flygon> Yeah, I'm talking about the one that was the most powerful locomotive in Australia from 1937ish to 1995 xP
05:55:49  <sim-al2> Although amusingly enough the H-class diesels were limited in routing too
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05:56:52  <Flygon> Oooooooh, you mean the T-Class derivative?
05:57:05  <Flygon> The one with the increased axle loads for shunting reasons?
05:57:28  <sim-al2> Yeah, the steam one had a pretty good axle load too
05:59:08  <Flygon> 'pretty good'? O_o
05:59:18  <Flygon> Mate, it could barely run on any of VR's lines! :D
06:00:48  <sim-al2> I do like how the axle load limits haven't really increased that much
06:05:50  <Flygon> Well...
06:05:53  <Flygon> Unfortunately
06:05:58  <Flygon> The reasons for this aren't good
06:06:03  <Flygon> The track infrastructure here is abysmal
06:06:08  <sim-al2> $$$ :)
06:06:23  <Flygon> Road Lobby Brown Paper Bags
06:07:01  <sim-al2> It's interesting that some of the more recent diesels had to skip AC traction for weight reasons, or suffer from having to limit fuel capacity
06:07:19  <Flygon> Limit fuel capacity?...
06:07:27  <Flygon> What sort of distances are you guys trying to do?
06:07:39  <Flygon> Even our interurban DMUs can go for 3,000km on a single tank
06:08:04  <Flygon> These ones
06:08:05  <sim-al2> No, that would be your private freight operators, see the TT class with three selectable fuel limits
06:08:48  <sim-al2> As opposed to our mainline diesels with 19000 liter tanks
06:08:53  <Flygon> Hmm...
06:09:03  <Flygon> Alright
06:09:14  <Flygon> Sorry, easy to forget that not everywhere had everything done by a single operator
06:09:32  <Flygon> (VR tended to want every Diesel loco to be able to handle long haul pax. no problemo)
06:10:18  <sim-al2> They do seem to have been able to, the P class is a cool idea if a bit limited
06:10:30  <Flygon> Mm...
06:10:41  <Flygon> The A/P-Class was an experiment, but, particulary with the A
06:10:56  <Flygon> It was cheaper to just order additional N's instead and use the existing B's for freight and pax
06:11:12  <Flygon> There's a photo of a B-Class going through Sunbury in VR livery around 1993
06:11:22  <Flygon> Despite VR having being dissolved 14 years earlier
06:12:03  <Flygon> Finding the phooto
06:12:38  <Flygon> I have no idea where to find the photo
06:13:09  <Flygon> 1993
06:13:38  <sim-al2> Always a very nice one, surprised they didn't all get the orange though
06:13:40  <Flygon> And it's being used for urban runs...
06:13:52  <Flygon> Nah, the B-Class never got painted V/Line orange
06:13:55  <Flygon> Only the A-Class did
06:14:00  <sim-al2> Not exactly the Spirit of Progress
06:14:21  <Flygon> It's incredible how low VR / V/Line had fallen by the 90s...
06:14:37  <Flygon> That's one loco, a luggage van, a first, and second class carriage (iirc)
06:14:40  <sim-al2>
06:15:16  <Flygon> For comparison, this same town now gets 6 carriage Comeng/Siemens sets frequently. A lot changed in 20 years.
06:15:25  <Flygon> Oh, huh
06:15:31  <Flygon> Okay, so, some Bs did get repainted O_o
06:15:34  <Flygon> I stand corrected
06:15:50  <Flygon> That would've been hell for the drivers
06:15:55  <sim-al2> Found here (, apparently only 3
06:16:05  <Flygon> The reason the A's have the black hoods with matte paint to prevent glare
06:16:32  <sim-al2> I've always wondered about the designers who choose gloss paint and no glare shields...
06:16:46  <Flygon> Yeah
06:17:22  <Flygon> Seriously, these consists are STILL used for purely urban runs...
06:17:29  <Flygon> Rail infrastructure here's just a mess
06:17:44  <Flygon> The only difference is the B being an N or an A instead
06:17:47  <sim-al2> The short hood of most modern diesels seems to be a non-slip surface or something ( )
06:18:24  <Flygon> Yeah, that's either matte paint or matte sheet
06:18:44  <sim-al2> I think it's a sheet judging by the raised surface
06:18:50  <Flygon> Most modern locos here don't even have a hood
06:19:07  <Flygon> Hell, VR stopped wanting hoods by the 1970s
06:19:29  <Flygon> This and the New South Welsh equivilant apperantly got called "Flying Bricks"
06:19:42  <Flygon> Fantastic at both Freight and Pax. xP
06:19:50  <sim-al2> Ours really have them for the toilet space and the crash protection
06:20:10  <Flygon> (also that exact photograph reminds me of Mad Max for some reason...)
06:20:25  <Flygon> Heh... that's part of the reason the A's got phased out of long distance here
06:20:28  <Flygon> They lack toilets
06:20:32  <Flygon> The N's have onboard toilets
06:21:12  <sim-al2> The earliest US diesels sometimes had a steam generator in the short hood, not sure that I would put it there...
06:21:13  <Flygon> Bloody hell, what a mishmash...
06:21:34  <sim-al2> lol
06:21:46  <Flygon> An A in Navy Blue livery, a B from when WCR still existed and owned the B, and an S in V/Line Orange for... some reason (???)
06:22:01  <Flygon> All in the same era the VLocity DMUs were being tested 200km/h+...
06:22:01  <sim-al2> Paint costs money
06:22:52  <sim-al2> See the inventory of a US class one railroad, there's still a few units in paint of railroads that stopped existing in the mid 90's...
06:24:02  <Flygon> Dayum
06:24:12  <Flygon> Here, you DO get old locos intentionally painted in outdated liveries
06:24:16  <Flygon> And then leased out
06:24:27  <Flygon> Cue VR B-Classes ending up in VR livery in Brisbane
06:24:55  <sim-al2> Well a few have gone and done that now; apparently people have positive (!?) memories of Penn Central
06:27:17  <Flygon> xP
06:27:47  <Flygon> I'm not sure if a few of the locos will be repainted in WCR in future
06:27:59  <Flygon> These locos have gone through so many owners...
06:28:32  <Flygon> Hell, and this isn't taking into account the geneology of some sets here
06:29:04  <Flygon> I'm half-expecting in 20-30 years for VLocities to be painted in Xplorer/Endeavor and Hunter liveries
06:29:21  <Flygon> Due to being either directly descendant or being brother/sister xP
06:29:28  <sim-al2> Huh, I assumed the old paint schemes were part some of them being essentiallly museum machines
06:29:35  <Flygon> Then again, this might happen in an official capacity anyway...
06:29:41  <Flygon> Well, it's part museum
06:29:43  <Flygon> Part cool
06:29:44  <sim-al2> Especially the B's and S's still rolling around
06:29:54  <Flygon> A few QR locos run on NG lines in Victoria
06:29:57  <Flygon> Painted in VR liery
06:29:59  <Flygon> livery*
06:30:03  <Flygon> They never held that livery
06:30:06  <sim-al2> There's NG in Vic?
06:30:06  <Flygon> But it looks cool
06:30:13  <Flygon> 726mm
06:30:18  <sim-al2> Dammmmmnnnn
06:30:39  <Flygon> 762mm, sorry
06:30:50  <sim-al2> Not even 1067?
06:31:00  <Flygon> Nah, we don't have that
06:31:13  <Flygon> 762mm railways were built by VR for lines determined to be too expensive for 1600mm
06:31:19  <Flygon> Basically
06:31:22  <Flygon> Curve radius.
06:31:36  <Flygon> 1067mm would've been too wide.
06:31:47  <sim-al2> I suppose Queensland built 1067mm because of the hills on the coasts, but the rest of the state seems rather flat...
06:32:03  <Flygon> And 600mm wasn't considered due to the lack of predicent for VR
06:32:10  <Flygon> 762mm is based directly on Indian Railways
06:32:19  <Flygon> Queensland's an interesting point
06:32:26  <Flygon> They build the lines where Brisbane were
06:32:31  <sim-al2> 600mm seems close to "minimum gauge"
06:32:33  <Flygon> Which's on the Northern end of the Great Dividig Range
06:32:52  <Flygon> Or - They built 1067mm initially because they built their capital city into a mountain
06:33:02  <Flygon> Despite the entire rest of the state being plains
06:33:02  <sim-al2> :D
06:33:14  <Flygon> Queensland needs standardization... but nobody will pay for it.
06:33:27  <Flygon> And it'd be an engineering... well
06:33:34  <Flygon> A combination of engineering feat and nightmar
06:33:35  <Flygon> e
06:34:00  <Flygon> VR would be easy to SGize by comparison
06:34:10  <Flygon> The biggest issue for Queensland is, is that their loading gauge is... er
06:34:21  <sim-al2> Pint size?
06:34:27  <Flygon> Let's say that Queensland loading gauge and British loading gauge are buttbuddies
06:34:35  <sim-al2> Oh good
06:34:50  <Flygon> New South Welsh loading gauge is huge by comparison, and sets the standard for the country
06:34:53  <sim-al2> *cue image of interstate double stacks*
06:35:07  <Flygon> Victoria's a tiny bit smaller, but easily worked around
06:35:28  <Flygon> Issue with Interstate Double Decks is that you'd need to build them to the same gauge as Sydney's DD stock...
06:35:37  <Flygon> And that makes building DMUs a nightmare
06:35:43  <Flygon> But locomotives are well on their way out.
06:35:53  <Flygon> And nobody wants to build a 25kv overhead
06:36:26  <sim-al2> I mean the ones that run on the line to Perth, since apparently there's no bridges and they built enormous rolling stock for the runs\
06:37:00  <sim-al2>
06:37:02  <Flygon> ooh
06:37:10  <Flygon> Yeah, that handles some pretty tall cargo
06:37:15  <Flygon> You could certainly do it
06:38:14  <sim-al2> I read somewhere that those locomotives spend 50%+ time at full power due to the winds
06:38:22  <Flygon> The issue is...
06:38:33  <sim-al2> As opposed to less than 25% for most railways worldwide
06:38:38  <Flygon> Is there a market for that much pax capacity?
06:38:46  <Flygon> Esp. given how easy it is to just make the trains longer
06:39:06  <sim-al2> I was talking about freight, although tall passenger cars make for nice long distance
06:39:49  <sim-al2>
06:40:38  <Flygon> OOooh, right
06:40:44  <Flygon> Right right
06:40:53  <Flygon> Sorry, was thinking about pax x.x
06:42:56  <sim-al2> Somehow we have bilevel DMUs
06:43:06  <sim-al2> (take that Europe)
06:45:27  <sim-al2> Bilevels are somewhat common for commuter operations too, depends on passenger loading and the length of stops desired though
06:55:16  <Flygon> What's the acceleration and top speed like?
06:55:42  <Flygon> (it'd be impossible to make a DD VLocity. The entire platform is designed around absurd acceleration based on Diesel-Hydralic transmisison)
06:56:44  <sim-al2> Hmm, I have no idea. Top speed is probably 80 or 90 mph
06:57:00  <Flygon> Hmm...
06:57:11  <sim-al2> Not exactly a lot of floor space underneath, the company also happened to go bankrupt
06:57:25  <Flygon> It's an acceptable top speed (VLos hit 100mph), but the acceleration would need to be at least 0.8m/s/s
06:57:36  <Flygon> But... that's all irrelevant
06:57:50  <Flygon> Because the loading gauge utterly breaks anything inside Melbourne or Sydney
06:58:07  <sim-al2> Found a brochure that says twin 600hp engines (oh god the fuel burn)
06:58:28  <Flygon> Twin per carriage?
06:58:45  <sim-al2> Yes
06:58:52  <Flygon> Jesus Christ
06:59:01  <Flygon> That's nearly twice the horsepower than per VLo unit...
06:59:05  <Flygon> That's utterly bonkers
06:59:13  <Flygon> How the crap do you fit them?????
06:59:32  <sim-al2> They were 18 feet high, there should be some room
06:59:46  <sim-al2> This claims 0-55 mph in 49 seconds
06:59:53  <Flygon> 18 feet?
07:00:02  <Flygon> Uhm
07:00:06  <Flygon> They're 1.4 meters too tall
07:00:06  <sim-al2> 5.5m
07:00:13  <sim-al2> Yeah, I know
07:00:20  <Flygon> Sydney's EMUs barely scrape inside the loading gauge, and they're around 4.4m
07:00:44  <Flygon> Melbourne would limit you to 4.2mish
07:00:56  <Flygon> But, yeah
07:01:04  <Flygon> I'm very very surprised USA lacks more DDs
07:01:12  <Flygon> Though, I can think of one big reason stopping Sydney-style services
07:01:19  <sim-al2> I'm suspicious of this brochure though, because it claims EMU-type performance
07:01:23  <Flygon> Your platforms are, frankly. Too low.
07:01:30  <sim-al2> ???
07:01:37  <Flygon> Sydney only works because you get THREE decks, not two
07:02:01  <sim-al2>
07:02:02  <Flygon> The passengers board what's effectively the second floor of the EMU, and from there goes to either the first (bottom) or third (top)
07:02:19  <Flygon> This means passenger flow can go through quickly. Almost as easily as a standard Melbourne set.
07:02:37  <Flygon> But the USA/Europe, with the near-ground level platforms
07:02:41  <Flygon> Makes that solution impossible
07:02:46  <sim-al2>
07:02:57  <sim-al2> We have high level you know
07:03:01  <Flygon> Yes, to unboard from the Lakeshore train from the top floor
07:03:09  <Flygon> You need to go down two sets of stairs
07:03:20  <Flygon> New Jersey is an exemption to the rule I've seen in the USA
07:03:33  <Flygon> Though, as a personal note
07:03:43  <Flygon> I observe that their doors are about half as wide as they should be
07:04:04  <sim-al2> It's a commuter operation, not a subway
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07:04:25  <Flygon> I know what you're saying, but there's a very big cultural drift here
07:04:38  <Flygon> EVERY single passenger platform for almost every railway company in Australia
07:04:46  <Flygon> Is raised fairly high off the ground
07:04:59  <Flygon> The only low platform service to come to mind are the Tramways
07:05:22  <Flygon> Even on remote branchlines we built this way
07:05:32  <Flygon> But USA and Europe didn't build this way to save money
07:05:43  <Flygon> And time, too
07:05:46  <Flygon> Faster construction
07:06:16  <sim-al2> It also allows larger cars, which improved everything else
07:06:26  <Flygon> Larger??...
07:06:31  <Flygon> Howso?
07:07:05  <Flygon> I would have thought that having passengers load from ground level would reduce the amount of space available, and cause problems trying to engineer more complex equipment
07:07:23  <Flygon> Or - You'd have far less room underfloor inside each carriage/unit to stuff equipment
07:07:27  <sim-al2> Cars aren't restricted by 19th century building standards, see Britain's problems
07:07:49  <Flygon> We built the way we did BECAUSE the existing standards in the UK were outdated
07:07:54  <Flygon> We built in the 1850s.
07:08:05  <Flygon> The UK's stuuuuffed xD
07:09:27  <sim-al2> The commuter operations here should be compared to something like V/Line's suburban ops, Sydney's electrics are very different from most thing running here
07:09:57  <Flygon> uuuh....
07:10:09  <Flygon> V/Line's suburban operations run to the exact same standards as Metro's here
07:10:23  <Flygon> Geelong even gets trains every 6-12 minutes at peak hour
07:11:25  <sim-al2> Ok, our government in it's infinite wisdom dumped all the post-war money into highways, leaving us permantly stuck with we can be scraped together
07:11:47  <Flygon> Yeah
07:12:00  <Flygon> I'm not saying you guys wouldn't build to a higher standard if you could
07:12:03  <Flygon> Just that nobody's got money
07:12:09  <Flygon> The exact same thing happened here, trust me
07:12:34  <Flygon> We just got lucky because 1860s-1890s Victoria was practically the richest part of the entire British empire
07:12:51  <Flygon> Then we crashed the entire British empire economically because of a housing speculation bubble.
07:13:11  <Flygon> This might have convinced the British to let go of Australia without fighting
07:13:11  <Flygon> xP
07:14:44  <Flygon> Not saying that the same solution would have worked for the USA, mind :P
07:15:07  <sim-al2> At this point low platforms are basically required out west anyway, as the cars are built for low level anyway
07:15:39  <Flygon> Mm...
07:15:42  <Flygon> It's systematic
07:16:02  <Flygon> And a conversion programme would result in decades of isolates happening as lines are converted
07:16:09  <Flygon> And probably end up like the state of SG in Victoria
07:16:17  <sim-al2> Level boarding is much more important, and high platforms don't guarentee it anyway
07:16:45  <Flygon> Level boarding?
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07:17:23  <sim-al2> No steps
07:17:36  <Flygon> Ahh
07:17:44  <sim-al2> See page 9 here ( )
07:18:53  <Flygon> Gaps here are a pretty big problem for some stations
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07:19:30  <sim-al2> Page 27 too
07:25:39  <Flygon> Gauntlet tracks seems a bit odd...
07:25:45  <Flygon> Most freight stuff is same width as pax here
07:26:05  <sim-al2> Most passenger cars are narrow for full nation wide gauge compliance
07:26:31  <sim-al2> Some areas limit the movement of the widest freight cars
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07:27:32  <Flygon> You... what
07:27:50  <Flygon> You have a MAXIMUM width legally allowable for any passenger car??
07:28:14  <sim-al2> Um no, it's AAR Plate C loading gauge that is almost universal
07:28:41  <sim-al2> There are some Plate F cars running around that are wider
07:28:51  <Flygon> Oh O_o
07:29:01  <Flygon> Here, whatever just runs... er
07:29:05  <Flygon> Wherever it can fit
07:29:17  <sim-al2> That's what loading gauge means
07:29:29  <Flygon> Yeah
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08:51:03  <Alberth> /me considers renaming the channel to #train-discussions  :)
08:55:37  <__ln___> go ahead
08:56:28  <Flygon> OpenTTD is pretty much the most 'powerful' train sim on the market that isn't expensive or taxing
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09:11:20  <peter1138> nor is it a train sim, but hey
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09:11:55  <andythenorth> moin
09:12:12  <Flygon> peter1138: It's secondary function can be powerful!
09:12:33  <Alberth> train sim would involve physics of friction of the wheels, and moving masses of the engine and wagons and its cargo, imho
09:13:05  <Alberth> moin andy
09:13:54  <Alberth> not to mention time schedules to arrive at stations for getting all the pax home in time
09:14:41  <Flygon> Alberth: Fine. Train NETWORK sim. xP
09:15:06  <Flygon> It can't be imposssssssible to capture some elements listed tho xP
09:15:37  <Flygon> But nobody seems to like my "Perhaps we should consider the fact that Diesel-Hydralic DMUs don't have a 'standard' acceleration curve" idea xP
09:16:13  <Alberth> tycoon don't handle such small details :)
09:16:43  <Flygon> It isn't possible for a NewGRF to handle this?
09:16:45  <andythenorth> just dibble the TE a bit :P
09:18:04  <andythenorth> for a while, I wanted a way to set the ratio of the planetary gears in logging truck axles in HEQS
09:18:22  <andythenorth> now I have adjusted my concerns, to things that a worth caring about :P
09:18:24  <Alberth> I have no idea where the NewGRF limits are, imho they are too far anyway :p
09:18:31  <andythenorth> like ‘how do I get seafood into this economy’ :P
09:18:55  <Alberth> make a sea-based economy?  :)
09:19:23  <andythenorth> crabs
09:19:24  <andythenorth> lobsters
09:19:33  <andythenorth> tuna
09:19:38  <Alberth> oysters
09:20:02  <Alberth> plastic :p
09:20:10  <andythenorth> deliver bait, get fish
09:20:13  <Flygon> bogans on jetskis
09:20:40  <andythenorth> deliver growth hormone, get farmed salmon
09:21:08  <Alberth> "fish supplies"
09:21:48  <andythenorth> fishing vessel construction yard -> requires nets, steel, diesel
09:22:53  <Alberth> fish auction
09:23:05  <Flygon> fish action
09:32:55  <peter1138> < only cargo types you ned
09:32:58  <peter1138> +e
09:34:17  <andythenorth> looks good to me
09:47:48  <andythenorth> I need more input / output cargos per industry :P
09:48:11  <andythenorth> ha ha, I could muck about with tile acceptance, but that is ugly
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09:58:07  <funkypudi> any admin moderator helper here to help?
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10:07:56  <andythenorth> so I add both ‘tyres’ cargo and ‘vehicle parts’ cargo
10:08:09  <andythenorth> “but andythenorth tyres ARE vehicle parts, no?"
10:08:09  <andythenorth> :P
10:08:18  <andythenorth> the chains are fricking weird otherwise
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11:04:25  <Wolf01> o/
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11:25:31  <Alberth> moin
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11:39:58  <TrueBrain> hi Alberth! Don't know if frosch already told you, but I install eints for OpenTTD. Looks really good, you guys did a very nice job on that. Even more so on documentation etc :D
11:40:09  <TrueBrain> The only issue is that import takes several minutes .. frosch indicated that should be seconds :P
11:40:20  <TrueBrain> It also runs very well on PyPy3 btw ;) (and a lot faster, ofc :D)
11:40:49  <Alberth> hi TB
11:40:54  <Alberth> good to hear
11:41:13  <Alberth> pypy3 is a jit compiler, I take it?
11:41:17  <TrueBrain> yes :D
11:42:37  <Alberth> import is just startup, or is it update of strings after a commit?
11:42:47  <TrueBrain> the latter seems fine
11:43:03  <TrueBrain> just the import (at startup & commit) takes ~6 minutes
11:43:12  <Alberth> and as for documentation, sorry, I document everything :p
11:43:15  <TrueBrain> not a real issue, tbh, WT3 can be slower if all languages are touched :D
11:43:28  <TrueBrain> hehe; no clue why you are sorry :P
11:43:39  <Alberth> :D
11:43:54  <TrueBrain> but we do have to pimp the script doing the updating, to only update the languages that are changed, basically ;)
11:44:34  <Alberth> ah right, smarter updating would be a nice first step :)
11:44:59  <TrueBrain> it still leaves the question for me, why on frosch his VM it was seconds, and for me it is minutes .. so something is a bit wonky
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11:45:29  <TrueBrain> but I had a Q for you: when you create a project that already exists, can I get an error code from the script entry point? Is that easily possible?
11:45:34  <TrueBrain> now it is just silently ignored :)
11:46:09  <TrueBrain> hmm ... or is there an entry to check if a project already exists .. hmm .. I didnt check that
11:46:11  <Alberth> no idea
11:47:03  <Alberth> but euhm, "create project"?  there is only one project, no?
11:47:10  <TrueBrain> yup
11:47:20  <TrueBrain> basically, I am putting all of configuration in Ansible
11:47:26  <TrueBrain> including deployment of eints
11:47:37  <TrueBrain> so I am trying to find a clean way to know if eints is already installed yes/no :)
11:48:57  <Alberth> make an deb, install, ask apt-cache or so?  :p
11:49:09  <TrueBrain> hehe; that would work too :D
11:49:18  <TrueBrain> owh well, I will work something out :)
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11:51:19  <TrueBrain> anyway, still a bit of work to do before we can use it, but I am really happy it works as clean as it does :)
11:52:02  <Alberth> good to hear, and thanks for the update
11:52:36  <Alberth> if you want something done, let me know
11:53:01  <TrueBrain> the LDAP stuff needs a bit of fixing up, but I think that was frosch's work, not?
11:53:13  <Alberth> yep, completely
11:53:34  <TrueBrain> and I have some minor things ... like removing the "new project" button; but that are minor details :)
11:54:02  <Alberth> quite :)
11:55:33  <TrueBrain> now I need someone to come up with a replacement for BaNaNaS :D
11:55:34  <TrueBrain> hehe
11:56:30  <Alberth> we'd need a design first
11:56:56  <Alberth> the actual coding is perhaps not that difficult, I think
11:57:41  <TrueBrain> yeah; indeed :)
11:58:32  <Wolf01> gah, windows updates needs reboot
11:58:36  <Wolf01> bbl
11:58:40  <Alberth> good luck
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11:58:50  <Alberth> hmm, not fast enough :(
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12:18:58  <Alberth> wb to the updated world
12:19:12  <Wolf01> eh, the update failed to install :|
12:19:34  <Wolf01> btw, lunch time
12:19:58  <Alberth> :( for update, \o/ for lunch
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13:54:48  <mykoserocin> hello
13:54:48  <mykoserocin> reading this:
13:55:02  <mykoserocin> "The network protocol is 100% endian safe. We made that possible by creating our own endian, sort to speak. We do not send packets, but we send bytes over the network. For example, when we want to send a int64, we send first byte 1, then byte 2, and so on. So the byte order is ALWAYS 1 2 3 4."
13:55:10  <mykoserocin> isn't this the same as little-endian?
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14:01:33  <Alberth> no idea what "byte 1" means here
14:02:05  <Alberth> the point is however that the same order is used both at big-endian and little-endian machines, so they can talk to each other
14:03:44  <__ln___> wtf, who wrote that statement in the wiki?
14:04:04  <Rubidium> in that case byte 1 is bits 0..7, i.e. GB(..., 0, 8), byte 2 is bits 8..15, i.e. GB(..., 8, 8) etc.
14:04:32  <__ln___> it is basically saying "the protocol is 100% endian safe because we ignore the existence of endianness"
14:05:46  <mykoserocin>
14:05:52  <mykoserocin>  *  - all > 1 byte integral values are written in little endian,
14:05:52  <mykoserocin>  *    unless specified otherwise.
14:08:35  <__ln___> TrueBrain: why would the 2004 revision of you write something like that:
14:09:32  <Alberth> what are you aiming to do?
14:11:12  <mykoserocin> me? just studying the protocol.
14:11:29  <__ln___> i'm aiming to go out for a walk.
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14:18:46  <Alberth> ok, maybe you wanted to connect things through the protocol, but there are better ways to do that
14:19:27  <mykoserocin> Alberth: what do you mean?
14:20:14  <Alberth> there is an admin port for monitoring games at the server
14:20:41  <Alberth> which works way better than trying to decode the game protocol itself
14:22:15  <TrueBrain> __ln__: because clearly the me of 2004 never heard of network byte order
14:22:24  <TrueBrain> it seems we reinvented a very existing wheel ;)
14:23:27  <TrueBrain> (well, I hope it is only described in the wiki as if it is something new; I hope the code uses exisitng OS wrappers for it :P)
14:30:51  <Rubidium> yes, the wrappers are very open source ;)
14:33:08  <Alberth> :)
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14:36:36  <drac_boy> hi
14:36:50  * drac_boy wonders if flygon got the empty bags from me :)
14:44:55  <drac_boy> hmm hey sim-a12 I think we're missing some usa rail flags :P
14:44:58  <drac_boy> heh
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18:37:54  <sim-al2>
18:45:18  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27454 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-11-22 19:45:10 +0100 )
18:45:19  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:20  <DorpsGek> korean - 4 changes by telk5093
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19:12:32  <Rubidium> sim-al2: do trains really need to go that slow on the bridge?
19:16:05  <sim-al2> I think it's because those units are still in testing, and that bridge was used for delivery to the line
19:16:31  <Rubidium> there is a sign saying 10, which might mean 10 mph
19:16:49  <Rubidium> (although here a sign with 10 means 100 km/h)
19:17:14  <sim-al2> 10mph, probably due to the age of the bridge; it's really just a freight route
19:19:42  *** supermop [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:19:59  <sim-al2> Looking at something else, they plan on replacing it with a drawbridge
19:24:09  <sim-al2> Oh wait, this bridge is still there and seems to not be on the line. Another swing bridge was replaced
19:31:36  <andythenorth> is cat
19:32:06  <andythenorth> so am I smoking crack if I split ‘vehicle parts’ and ‘tyres'
19:32:08  <andythenorth> ?
19:34:49  <Alberth> if it makes sense from the industry chain pov, I'd say just do it
19:35:05  <Alberth> if people complain, tell them to ignore tyres :)
19:35:25  <andythenorth> I want three inputs to the vehicle factory
19:35:48  <andythenorth> I tried manufacturing supplies, but that’s weird, because it’s mostly paper, boxes, glasses, tins etc
19:36:03  <andythenorth> I could use chemicals, quite plausibly
19:36:12  <andythenorth> but nearly everything accepts chemicals :P
19:45:18  <Alberth> you could make it 'doors' or 'engines' or so
19:45:20  <andythenorth> I could
19:45:35  <andythenorth> I have dug around, I think chemicals is fine as third cargo
19:45:39  <Alberth> but imho tyres is fine too
19:45:44  <andythenorth> players don’t like it, they can play a different thing
19:46:16  <andythenorth> it’s a weird industry, vehicles.  The chain is longer than most FIRS chains
19:46:25  <Alberth> \o/
19:47:00  <andythenorth> this Arctic economy will be quite different to others.  There are 2 or 3 very short chains (farm -> food -> town etc).  And one very long chain.
19:47:19  * andythenorth needs a GS to test it with :D
19:48:10  <Alberth> haha  :)
19:48:40  <andythenorth> hmm
19:48:51  <andythenorth> rubber -> plastics plant (already exists), or
19:49:00  <andythenorth> rubber -> tyre plant (probably quite easy to draw)
19:49:06  <Alberth> I remember someone saying BB was done :p
19:49:36  <Alberth> no plastic wheels? :)
19:49:45  <andythenorth> tyre plant can be added
19:49:51  <andythenorth> BB is ‘done’, except the bugs :P
19:50:23  <Alberth> :D
19:51:38  <andythenorth> ho nordic tyre plant
19:52:33  <sim-al2> Or like this:
19:52:33  <sim-al2> [13:48] <andythenorth> rubber -> plastics plant (already exists), or
19:52:35  <sim-al2> [13:48] <andythenorth> rubber -> plastics plant (already exists), or
19:52:41  <sim-al2>
19:52:47  <sim-al2> Wow sorry
19:53:18  <andythenorth> also that one
19:53:27  <andythenorth> ‘tyre plant’ or ‘tyre factory’ ?
19:53:48  <Alberth> large buildings for such small tyres :)
19:54:11  <sim-al2> It's a complicated product though
19:54:36  <andythenorth> the world’s biggest tyre maker is in Denmark
19:54:43  <andythenorth> it makes very small tyres...
19:55:00  <Rubidium> you mean the one making the largest amount, right?
19:55:13  <Rubidium> not the one making the biggest tyres, or that one as well?
19:55:35  <andythenorth> highest volume
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19:59:44  <andythenorth> quak
20:00:14  <andythenorth>
20:00:52  <frosch123> hoi
20:01:11  <Alberth> moin
20:01:26  <Wolf01> o/
20:06:51  <andythenorth> ha, an economy with no manufacturing supplies :)
20:06:58  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
20:06:59  <andythenorth> but it’s primarily a manufacturing economy
20:07:00  <drac_boy> hi
20:07:04  * andythenorth is pleased by this
20:07:51  <drac_boy> whats the 'this'? heh :)
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20:13:49  <andythenorth> hmm
20:14:24  <andythenorth> this economy has Fishing Harbour.  Fishing Harbour needs manufacturing supplies (MNSP).  No MNSP in this economy.
20:14:34  <andythenorth> 1) change Fishing Harbour only in this economy
20:14:38  <andythenorth> 2) change it for all economies
20:14:48  <andythenorth> 3) have a different destination for Fish cargo?
20:15:53  <Alberth> not 2?
20:16:22  <Alberth> ie it would break many economies, wouldn't it?
20:16:26  <andythenorth> not really break
20:16:33  <andythenorth> just changes the behaviour of that industry
20:16:46  <andythenorth> currently both cargos are needed for max output
20:16:57  <andythenorth> I never bother delivering MNSP to fishing harbours anyway :P
20:17:00  <Alberth> but I'd  guess you balanced MN use
20:17:02  <drac_boy> andy oh well I would only do #1 for that specific economy parameter if it was me
20:17:52  <andythenorth> I could swap Fishing Grounds -> Fish -> Fishing Harbour -> Food
20:17:54  <Alberth> send fish to the workers of the tyre factory? :)
20:17:57  <andythenorth> to Fish Farm -> Food
20:18:06  <andythenorth> fish is in every economy, it gets old :P
20:18:23  <drac_boy> not to someone who needs a supply of food without large land impact :)
20:18:29  <drac_boy> heh
20:18:35  <Alberth> yep, a change of the chain would be useful
20:18:47  <andythenorth> can’t have Norway without fish, right?
20:18:53  <andythenorth> I could just drop it :P
20:19:09  <drac_boy> andy...or most arctic maps in fact... beside its easier to find fish ground than a rare flat land for farm fields
20:19:19  <drac_boy> just my own comment anyhow
20:19:46  <Alberth> fish farms are often on water too :)
20:20:36  <andythenorth> that’s my thought
20:20:40  <andythenorth> and not hard to draw
20:26:37  * drac_boy still need to draw a bit more since just a bit before last weekend :-s
20:26:45  <andythenorth> ha ha, this economy has 23 industries, and 8 of them require chemicals
20:27:33  <andythenorth> distorted much? o_O
20:27:49  <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ inverse silicon valley? o_O
20:28:02  <andythenorth> “Your goal is to build 10 industries consuming chemicals”
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20:32:48  <drac_boy> guess that would depend what kind of industries these chemicals are going to. if its eg the paperwork that probably makes sense for it to optionally want a small amount
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20:33:02  <Alberth> gn
20:33:07  <andythenorth> bye Alberth
20:33:10  <drac_boy> bye alberth
20:33:12  <andythenorth> maybe it’s printer ink
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20:35:00  * drac_boy still can't quite get the hang of drawing bigger buildings anyhow :-s (at least not all industries have to be drawn in big size comment)
20:35:46  <andythenorth> draw small buildings, and use lots of them
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20:40:54  <drac_boy> :p
20:41:28  <andythenorth> drac_boy: that’s how FIRS does it, mostly
20:41:48  <drac_boy> well for 256x256 map that probably works a bit better too anyway
20:42:16  <drac_boy> ah I see what you really meant now
20:43:25  <andythenorth> there are some big 2x2 tile sprites
20:43:29  <andythenorth> but mostly 1x1 now
20:51:29  <drac_boy> at least (for me anyhow) vertical cylinders seem easier to draw once and shade a few times versus trying to draw a tanker vehicle/wagon every angle .. oh well thats pixels for you after all
20:51:56  <andythenorth> drawing industry is way more fun than drawing vehicles
20:52:04  <andythenorth> only one angle, and the shapes are all very easy
20:52:16  * andythenorth could draw industries all day long
20:52:23  <drac_boy> only thing of course is you need vehicles to actually use the industry with (unless you want to go with something like the pipelines.grf :P
20:52:41  <andythenorth> this is the problem
20:52:45  <andythenorth> also ships, are the worst
20:52:51  <andythenorth> and there zero good ship sets
20:52:54  <andythenorth> * are
20:53:02  <drac_boy> if you're interested in only buildings alone you always could modify your tools to draw the buildings for simcity instead :)
20:53:17  <drac_boy> I still dabble in the Constructor Kit for simcity2000 once in a while just for fun
20:55:23  <drac_boy> online screenshot for anyone else here who might be wondering exactly what it is
20:57:09  <drac_boy> can't recall if any other construction-genre games have user moddable buildings too .. never really did look that much myself (due to having simcity already anyway)
20:58:07  <drac_boy> re ships..humm well...I do like newships.grf (save for sometimes introduction dates being odd) but otherwise yeah I don't think theres really been that much of any improvements past that
20:58:40  <andythenorth> drawing ships is zero fun
20:58:42  <drac_boy> I usually only run a few small passenger ferries aside to the occassional light/medium sized oilrig tankers for most part
20:59:35  <drac_boy> anything else such as a far-reach coal mine I rather run one or two russia planes in daily service :)
21:01:19  <mykoserocin> what is the purpose of the 8-byte arbitrary data in the PACKET_CLIENT_CHAT message?
21:02:18  <mykoserocin> it also gets sent to all the connected clients even if it's not needed
21:02:20  <drac_boy> ip-like field perhaps? (just like an internet packet)
21:02:39  <mykoserocin> drac_boy: care to elaborate?
21:02:40  <drac_boy> I dunno tbh
21:02:57  * drac_boy points to an actual coder somewhere else in the user list instead >>>
21:08:43  <mykoserocin> here's an example packet:
21:08:45  <mykoserocin> 0000   16 00 1c 03 02 02 00 00 00 74 65 73 74 00 fe ed  .........test...
21:08:45  <mykoserocin> 0010   fa ce de ad be ef                                ......
21:09:13  <Rubidium> what does the documentation say?
21:09:28  <mykoserocin> it says "arbitrary data"
21:09:35  <mykoserocin>
21:09:55  <mykoserocin> but the purpose of that data is unclear
21:11:16  <Rubidium> that blackbook is rubbish
21:11:38  <Rubidium> someone once thought it be a good idea to copy the source code comments to wiki
21:11:39  <mykoserocin> well, i assume it might be used for money transfer messages, but why does server replicates it in ordinary chat messages...
21:12:29  <Rubidium> in any case, there are many chat-type messages. In this case "chat-type" means using the chat window to put some message
21:13:01  <Rubidium> so you send the type and based on the type it processes/formats the data differently
21:13:23  <mykoserocin> also here: PACKET_CLIENT_CHAT does not document this arbitrary data at all...
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21:14:16  <mykoserocin> Rubidium: "chat-type" — NetworkAction you mean?
21:15:06  <Rubidium> yes, but since you are giving links to obsolete documents saying NetworkAction type does not give any clue to you what it is
21:15:51  <Taede> the wiki also lists 3 unint8's while the black book lists uint8, uint16 and uint32
21:15:52  <mykoserocin> are there any non-obsolete documents except source code?
21:16:23  <andythenorth> unlikely :D
21:16:49  <Rubidium> anyhow, when you send money a "chat" message with GIVE_MONEY type is sent with the name of the company and the amount. Depending on whether "you" were the one sending the money or receiving the money, a different message is shown
21:17:49  <Rubidium> but what basically happens in any case is passing the client name, the "arbitrary" text and "arbitrary" number onto the string formating stack, and then format a string depending on the networkaction (+ some local knowledge)
21:19:26  <Rubidium> has an as up-to-date (well, with a lag of up to 24 hours and a few minutes) documentation as the source code
21:19:47  <Rubidium> although you need to know where to look
21:20:28  <drac_boy> you mean "24 hours give or take"? don't mind me :P
21:20:58  <mykoserocin> Rubidium: i think i've found it: SetDParam(2, data);
21:21:01  <mykoserocin> so this has to do with some home-made string scanner?
21:21:39  <Rubidium> drac_boy: not really, because "give or take" implies it could be less, but the maximum won't be less than 24 hours
21:21:44  <mykoserocin> i wonder why not use snprintf or something similar?
21:21:57  <mykoserocin> colors?
21:22:49  <Rubidium> because snprintf can't be extended
21:23:05  <Rubidium> e.g. we can't add custom formatting for currencies
21:23:34  <Rubidium> anyhow, it's more a gettext-ish thing
21:24:04  <mykoserocin> i see, but is this possible to use va_list (variardic function)?
21:24:43  <Rubidium> in theory one could make that, but in practice it won't be really helpful
21:25:58  <mykoserocin> why?
21:26:00  <Rubidium> because now we can have ifs/cases that set the individual paramters, and with va_list you'd need to either make variables for everything *or* put all the logic into a single line
21:26:11  <mykoserocin> that'd increase readability a lot
21:26:37  *** rahtgaz [] has quit [Quit: I'll be Bach]
21:27:28  <Rubidium> how would the following look with variadic functions?;a=blob;f=src/network/network.cpp;h=0bbdd0d06cf8216109ee80956f2e78daac5221b1;hb=HEAD#l362
21:32:10  * andythenorth shudders at variadic functions
21:32:18  <andythenorth> for a while, there was a variadic version of FIRS
21:32:24  <Rubidium> <- just to give you an idea of the different types of "formatters" OpenTTD's language file contains, which makes its string system vastly more useful than what can be achieved with gettext or snprintf
21:34:46  <Rubidium> although gettext has support for plural, it doesn't seem to have sprouted support for genders yet whereas OpenTTD handles them for about a decade now
21:35:29  <andythenorth> unrelated to openttd, is there anything better than gettext out there?
21:35:36  <andythenorth> it’s considered limiting for translating python web apps :P
21:35:42  <andythenorth> but is the only known game in town
21:36:05  <Rubidium> newgrf?
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21:36:19  <Rubidium> it has a python web app for translating it ;)
21:36:26  <andythenorth> that one cheats :P
21:36:37  <andythenorth> it uses openttd style string handling :P
21:37:10  <mykoserocin>;a=blob;f=src/lang/english.txt;h=0bd430bad0837ecf0d0e6bf118b92ff24b621201;hb=HEAD#l2171
21:37:15  <mykoserocin> wow, that's looks ugly :D
21:37:30  <andythenorth> the python i18n frameworks don’t _appear_ to support a default lang, so instead of falling back to english or so, you serve blank strings to end users if the string is missing :P
21:37:47  <mykoserocin> as far as I understand, the parser will use different string, depending on it's stack size?
21:37:48  <andythenorth> which breaks functionality horribly, e.g. <a href=“blah”></a> :P
21:39:34  <Rubidium> mykoserocin: true, it is ugly... however, imagine a language where the amount of reasons influences the paused verb
21:40:21  <Rubidium> and the only reason there are duplicates is because there are many reasons why the game could be paused that are compounded and only showing one made some users upset
21:40:51  <Rubidium> in this case, the parser will be given a different string (the parser itself doesn't look to stack size)
21:41:30  <andythenorth> bye
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21:43:11  <Rubidium> anyhow... OpenTTD's string system is vastly better suited than printf and gettext for languages that do not conform to the "base languages'" order
21:43:11  <mykoserocin> Rubidium: wouldn't gettext help in that case (amount of reasons influence the verb)?
21:43:35  <mykoserocin> but i see, you were talking about genders
21:43:57  <mykoserocin> are there any examples in the source code i can look for?
21:44:13  <Rubidium> mykoserocin: yes, but you can't then write some regular expression-ish thing to have 1 to 4 "outputs" between brackets
21:44:43  <Rubidium> so either you have to sprintf them after eachother, which might break horribly in some languages that use a different word order
21:44:52  <Rubidium> or you need to do something else weirds
21:45:30  <mykoserocin> printf("Game paused (%s%s%s)
21:45:33  <mykoserocin> whoops
21:46:21  <mykoserocin> printf("Game paused (%s%s)\n", (thing1 ? "thing1, " : ""), (thing2 ? "thing2, " : ""));
21:46:27  <mykoserocin> yeah, that won't work :)
21:46:31  <mykoserocin> because of commas
21:46:37  <mykoserocin> *would not work
21:49:36  <mykoserocin> Rubidium: one could add {STRING_ALL} specifier to the string scanner, so it'd pop all the values and print them comma delimited
21:50:06  <mykoserocin> but that'd clearly violate the string format rule
21:50:11  <Rubidium>;a=blob;f=src/lang/german.txt#l3515 <- genders
21:50:59  <Rubidium> so from 3518 a number of types of vehicles are defined, with the gender in front of it
21:51:47  <glx> french also uses genders (including a fake one for some phrase constructions)
21:51:51  <Rubidium> when the string is constructed, the {G ...} stuff of e.g. line 3517 looks at the "included" strings to get the gender and then choose which of the genders to use
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21:55:15  <Rubidium> and since you can stack string "inclusion", you can also say that you want the second substring of the first included string... but that's rarely ever used
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21:58:27  <drac_boy> hmm looks like I need to say byebye V100
21:58:30  <mykoserocin> thanks for the explanation, I wasn't aware of such nuances with some of the languages :)
21:59:20  <Rubidium> oh, this is the simple stuff
21:59:47  <glx> yeah add the cases on top of that ;)
21:59:48  <Rubidium> things start to get interesting with right-to-left languages such a Hebrew
22:00:19  <Rubidium> since their text goes from right-to-left, but not for numbers
22:00:21  <drac_boy> I think it wasn't only hebrew that does that
22:00:31  <glx> arabic too
22:00:53  <drac_boy> right, I knew there was a common second one but just couldn't recall who glx
22:00:55  <drac_boy> thanks
22:01:23  <Rubidium> the next step is Arabic, which is even more fun... because multiple characters influence eachother, so writing 3 characters in "code" (or on your keyboard) can result in one character on the screen
22:01:54  <glx> and the fun is even better when you mix these language with untranslated stuff like vehicle names ;)
22:02:03  *** supermop [] has joined #openttd
22:02:05  <Flygon> Oh man, I submitted art to websites with Arabic Title
22:02:08  <glx> ie LTR inside RTL
22:02:11  <Flygon> I broke, like
22:02:13  <Flygon> A lot of them
22:02:22  <Flygon> Esp. since I also had the title in English
22:02:36  <drac_boy> oh I kinda know what you mean..on slider phone keyboards I sometimes find it funny when typing a different third letter can cause the second letter to get different symbols
22:02:39  <Flygon> And at least one refused to even accept the title as anything but ASCII
22:03:07  <drac_boy> so flygon did you fill up any shopping bags yesterday or what :P
22:03:40  * Flygon gives drac_boy some paper bags to play with
22:04:40  <Rubidium> oh... and then there are things that we don't support, like proper "thousand" grouping for some locales
22:05:13  <Rubidium> like... welcome
22:05:32  <drac_boy> flygon I take it none? :)
22:05:55  <Flygon> Everything got put into the cupboard? xP
22:07:07  <mykoserocin> Rubidium: how about using LC_MONETARY for this one?
22:08:38  <mykoserocin> here's a random example:
22:09:14  <mykoserocin> i'm not sure though if there's any alternative function to PHP's money_format()
22:09:59  <Rubidium> a function that doesn't work on Windows doesn't sound good enough for OpenTTD
22:10:00  <mykoserocin> it seems that ICU can handle this
22:10:17  *** rahtgaz [] has joined #openttd
22:10:17  <glx> ICU is the devil ;)
22:10:47  <mykoserocin> does OpenTTD gets compiled with ICU on Windows?
22:10:59  * Rubidium wonders how SI prefixes mess up the indian system
22:11:03  <glx> yes, and building ICU on windows is not fun
22:11:20  <Rubidium> 10,00,000 -> 10,00 k or 1,000 k?
22:11:24  <mykoserocin> glx: it is, but OpenTTD already uses it
22:12:06  <mykoserocin> judging by ./configure --help
22:15:55  <Rubidium> IMO missing that numbering format isn't a big problem though, and I dislike locales anyway because they never suit my needs
22:16:07  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
22:16:46  <Rubidium> I want English, but times with a 24 hour clock, metric numbers, comma as decimal separator and dots as thousand separator. Which locale do I need?
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22:17:36  <glx> custom ;)
22:18:07  <mykoserocin> ^
22:18:43  <drac_boy> anyway flygon you going sleep soon?
22:18:54  * Rubidium is
22:19:36  <Flygon> It's 9:19AM
22:20:00  <mykoserocin> Rubidium: you can even configure wheter it's A4 or Letter by default with LC_PAPER :)
22:20:17  <drac_boy> ah heh ok well flygon I'm going off for a bit re supper and more but if you're around later we can have a bit of random chat again ok? :)
22:20:54  <Rubidium> Flygon: lucky bastard... you already have had almost two fifths of Monday
22:20:56  <slaca> there is a big feature in openttd in every year (cargodist, rivers, ..) I would like to know what will be the biggest feature in 1.6.0?
22:21:19  *** drac_boy [] has left #openttd []
22:21:52  <Flygon> drac_boy: A'ight
22:21:59  <Flygon> Rubidium: I USUALLY work Mondays.
22:22:02  <Flygon> Kinda wish I was
22:22:05  <Flygon> I need the $$$
22:24:00  <Rubidium> slaca: I don't think there will be something big in 1.6.0 (or 1.6.0 isn't release in early Q2 of 2016)
22:25:15  <slaca> thanks, i thought it will be released in 1. of april
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23:11:04  <Eearslya> Is Bananas something that was written exclusively for OTTD?
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23:58:56  <drac_boy> hi :)
23:59:18  * drac_boy wonders if flygon want to blather about slow little aussie locomotives

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