Log for #openttd on 28th November 2015:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:27:44  *** guru3 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:38:49  *** guru3 [] has joined #openttd
01:11:07  *** Biolunar [] has joined #openttd
01:21:21  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has joined #openttd
01:26:47  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:31:19  *** drac_boy [] has left #openttd []
01:37:18  *** Supercheese [] has quit [Quit: Valete omnes]
01:49:11  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
02:00:26  *** smoke_fumus|2 [~smoke_fum@] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium]
02:07:09  *** Biolunar [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:15:01  *** zeknurn [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:40:51  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has joined #openttd
02:46:37  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:12:34  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:50:34  *** glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
03:54:23  *** gelignite_ [] has joined #openttd
03:54:38  *** gelignite [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:59:51  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:41:34  *** supermop [~supermop@2605:a000:1121:31:cdc3:6d35:40f8:dd80] has joined #openttd
05:56:01  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
05:56:16  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
06:24:39  *** supermop [~supermop@2605:a000:1121:31:cdc3:6d35:40f8:dd80] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:33:46  *** Sylf [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:37:37  *** Sylf [] has joined #openttd
07:03:17  *** rahtgaz [] has joined #openttd
07:26:59  *** Arveen [] has joined #openttd
07:30:27  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
07:47:38  <andythenorth> o/
07:47:53  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
07:48:01  <andythenorth> such FIRS
07:48:07  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
07:48:07  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 5 days, 12 hours, 31 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <Pikka> well
07:48:53  *** zeknurn [] has joined #openttd
07:54:00  <andythenorth> ‘phosphate’ or ‘phosphates’ ?
08:18:28  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:26:40  <Terkhen> Hello
08:40:44  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen :)
09:08:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it's usually plural
09:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't know english...
09:21:05  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
09:30:00  *** Hiddenfunstuff [] has joined #openttd
09:42:07  *** SpComb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:44:00  *** gelignite_ [] has quit [Quit:]
09:44:18  *** gelignite [] has joined #openttd
10:09:51  *** sla_ro|tablet [] has joined #openttd
10:15:55  *** roidal [] has joined #openttd
10:31:35  *** Biolunar [] has joined #openttd
10:38:07  *** sla_ro|tablet [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:40:33  *** sla_ro|tablet [] has joined #openttd
10:43:08  *** sla_ro|tablet [] has quit []
10:51:46  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
10:52:09  <Wolf01> hi o/
10:54:18  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
10:56:17  <Flygon> EddizuHause: Furs is a plural. FIRS isn't. ;3
10:58:02  * andythenorth needs a GS
11:05:00  <Wolf01> i must retry the windows update... this night it failed at drivers stage :|
11:07:26  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
11:07:47  *** Wormnest [] has joined #openttd
11:08:36  <Wolf01> i must admit that windows is really more robust now, it survived a hard reset during the update without problems... do it with XP/Vista
11:10:23  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
11:10:25  <drac_boy> hi
11:10:30  <Wolf01> o/
11:14:01  <drac_boy> hi wolf01 not-sleepy? ;)
11:14:06  <drac_boy> heh hows you anyhow
11:15:35  <Wolf01> no, not sleepy
11:20:39  <drac_boy> I'm ok either way..just trying to browse some ads (with a serious lack of filtering...meh) for a while now before I need to decide what to do re breakfast :)
11:26:51  * andythenorth must draw: copper refinery, copper mine, phosphate mine, pyrite mine, pyrite smelter, supply yard, tyre plant, vineyard, vehicle factory
11:27:01  <andythenorth> 8 industries, 5 months
11:27:06  <andythenorth> it takes a weekend to draw an industry
11:27:17  <andythenorth> I get about 1 weekend without interruptions a month, at best
11:27:27  <andythenorth> FIRS 2 isn’t going to be done on time :)
11:31:00  *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
11:31:03  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
11:31:31  <andythenorth> Alberth: o/
11:31:38  <Alberth> hi hi
11:31:51  *** Pensacola [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
11:35:15  <Wolf01> o/
11:35:42  *** DDR [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:36:31  <drac_boy> have fun drawing everything still andy ;)
11:49:12  <Wolf01> bah, every f*****g day the tram stops in the bridge to Venice because of broken vehicles, and at this point i can't understand why they didn't use a trolley bus instead... and also i can't understand why so many vehicles breaks there every day
11:52:02  <drac_boy> wolf01 in italy?
11:52:06  <Wolf01> yes
11:53:33  <drac_boy> oh is that the one called Ponte della Liberta?
11:53:43  <Wolf01> yes, that
11:54:20  <Wolf01> mmmh, lunch
11:55:32  <drac_boy> hm..I dunno what to say .. theres heavy rails parallel to it except I don't think a rail shuttle could work for the other side of bridge (inland in italy yeah) .. yeah I dunno what to really say seeing I don't even know much beyond names now :)
11:55:57  *** Pensacola [~quassel@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:00:31  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
12:02:24  *** Pensacola [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
12:17:41  <drac_boy> wolf01 so what you having for lunch anyhow?
12:22:16  <andythenorth> quak
12:24:22  <Alberth> o/
12:29:40  <andythenorth> Alberth: is there anything that would motivate you to work on BB for a bit? o_O
12:30:58  <Alberth> I tried yesterday and failed :p
12:31:14  <Alberth> Today another attempt is planned
12:32:15  <drac_boy> BB?
12:34:41  <Wolf01> [13:17:46] <drac_boy> wolf01 so what you having for lunch anyhow? <- stuff, i don't know how to call it, in substance gnocchi of spinach and bread with bacon and parmesan cheese
12:35:42  <drac_boy> sounds like a good pasta lunch anyhow :)
12:35:58  <drac_boy> funny enough I'm in middle of breakfast atm .. just waiting for next pancake from pan to be ready
12:35:58  <andythenorth> Alberth: it would much help my FIRS testing :)
12:36:09  <Wolf01> with the difference that there isn't a bit of pasta
12:36:10  <Alberth> I am aware of that :p
12:36:15  <andythenorth> I have worn out SV and NCG :)
12:40:08  <Alberth> maybe just add a bit of random as quick hack?
12:40:49  <drac_boy> wolf01 well .. gnocchi for some reason is often lumped as a pasta dish
12:41:53  <andythenorth> nah, my quick hacks aren’t savegame safe, probably :)
12:42:12  <andythenorth> I have to draw industries anyway
12:44:31  <Alberth> there is some selection code for picking the "best" destination, if you throw in some random there, you'll get more variation.
12:46:52  <andythenorth> FindChallenge() ?
12:47:05  <Alberth> /me looks
12:47:20  <andythenorth> I also have my patch to prevent repeat goals here
12:47:35  <andythenorth> it works until I reload a savegame
12:47:47  <andythenorth> which is a bit of an ‘oops’ moment :)
12:49:15  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o]
12:50:54  <Alberth> yes, you would probably split the foreach in two steps. First just collect feasible solutions without checking for 'best'; then (simple) just pick one of the feasible solutions, or pick one of the top N.
12:50:58  *** gelignite [] has quit [Quit:]
12:51:15  *** gelignite [] has joined #openttd
13:07:02  * andythenorth looking
13:09:39  *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@] has joined #openttd
13:11:35  <drac_boy> going afk for a bit anyhow, have fun wolf01 n andy
13:11:39  *** drac_boy [] has left #openttd []
13:12:16  <Wolf01> oh, thank you... i got stuck in numberphile again
14:00:59  <Wolf01> let's retry the update, bbl
14:01:02  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
14:13:13  *** liq3 [] has quit []
14:29:09  *** Pensacola [~quassel@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:43:52  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:57:10  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has joined #openttd
14:57:55  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
14:58:41  <Wolf01> bah the update broke the hyper-v virtual ethernet, leaving me without connection
14:59:08  <Wolf01> removed the virtual ethernet, so the virtual machines are now without connection
15:08:48  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
15:40:53  *** Arveen [] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 -]
16:12:41  *** SpComb [] has joined #openttd
16:35:14  *** Sirenia [~sirenia@] has joined #openttd
16:42:02  *** Wormnest [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:56:27  *** Arveen [] has joined #openttd
17:10:47  *** LadyHawk [] has quit []
17:33:52  *** glx [] has joined #openttd
17:33:55  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
17:38:04  <Wolf01> Strange Train Facts
17:39:09  <Wolf01> the third one :o
17:40:18  <Wolf01> the last one also
17:47:11  *** LadyHawk [] has joined #openttd
18:07:59  *** Wormnest [] has joined #openttd
18:13:00  *** sim-al2 [] has quit [Quit:  HydraIRC -> <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC]
18:14:22  *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd []
18:17:32  *** m1cr0man [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:28:57  *** rahtgaz [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:32:00  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
18:32:03  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
18:32:04  *** Snail [] has joined #openttd
18:36:27  *** __ln__ [~lauri@2001:2003:f22a:4600:250:43ff:fe01:4a71] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:39:39  *** __ln__ [~lauri@2001:2003:f22a:4600:250:43ff:fe01:4a71] has joined #openttd
18:48:18  *** supermop [~supermop@2605:a000:1121:31:cdc3:6d35:40f8:dd80] has joined #openttd
19:13:34  *** chester_ [~chester@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
19:31:59  *** supermop [~supermop@2605:a000:1121:31:cdc3:6d35:40f8:dd80] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:34:27  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
19:34:30  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
19:40:47  *** tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:52:18  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
20:09:34  *** sim-al2 [] has joined #openttd
20:11:04  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
20:12:55  * andythenorth has not made FIRS
20:12:59  * andythenorth has made Lego instead
20:29:09  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
21:12:30  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
21:12:33  <drac_boy> hi
21:13:15  <drac_boy> just curious if theres any steam heads (heh?) here .. exactly how do you classify these few locomotives that are both bunkers and tender type in one?
21:16:04  <Wolf01> the what?
21:16:56  <Wolf01> you mean these?
21:18:17  <drac_boy> no thats bunker-only so it would had been a 0-6-0T
21:18:24  <drac_boy> one sec I think I know where to find a photo...
21:18:46  <Terkhen> good night
21:19:11  <Wolf01> i found 2-6-2 too
21:19:21  *** Sirenia [~sirenia@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:19:50  *** Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
21:24:17  *** Supercheese [] has joined #openttd
21:25:54  <drac_boy> missing bunker but still has the water carried forward tho to give you an idea
21:26:10  *** Arveen [] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 -]
21:26:18  <Wolf01> mmm
21:28:19  <Wolf01> could this help you?
21:29:53  <Wolf01> need to go, my people need me
21:30:20  *** Sirenia [~sirenia@] has joined #openttd
21:32:34  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
21:34:56  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
21:38:58  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
21:52:17  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the austrians had this construction:
21:53:51  *** Snail [] has joined #openttd
21:54:16  *** Biolunar [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
21:55:58  <Snail> drac_boy: bunker and tender? meaning they have coal and water reservoirs both on the engine itself and on the separate tender?
21:57:04  <drac_boy> yeah snail .. I dunno if its just my lack of sleep or not re if my wordings were poor :->
21:57:42  <Snail> :) I know one of this type, and it’s classified as a tender locomotive (as separate tender)
21:57:47  <Snail>
21:57:49  <drac_boy> I know some uk railroad had some of these little saddle+tender but again I dunno if its my lack of sleep but I can't find a crap for these either :->
21:58:03  <Snail> this one had a coal reservoir on the engine, and water in the tender
21:58:23  <Snail> not sure about such engines on UK railroads
21:58:40  <drac_boy> yeah that odd locomotive does seem to match :)
21:58:59  <drac_boy> the box could be better matched with the boiler tho .. that looks weird as-is heh
21:59:53  *** roidal_ [] has joined #openttd
22:01:17  <Snail> yeah, it was an experimental design
22:01:42  <Snail> one of the few ones built in Europe I think. Cab-forward engines were mostly successful in the US
22:02:23  <Supercheese> I remember going to the Sacramento railroad museum as a kid and their cab-forward engine featured prominently
22:03:26  <Supercheese>  This guy
22:03:56  <drac_boy> snail mm well yeah the main reason Southern Pacific made theirs cab-forward was due to ease of oil firing to put the smokestack behind the cab to avoid crew suffocation problems in the long on-grade tunnels
22:04:16  <drac_boy> although you could find photos of such trains still sometimes being doubleheaded so the second crew still had to suffer nevertheless :-s
22:04:40  <Snail> yep
 the alternative solution was electricity :p
22:04:51  <Snail> but that never quite got any traction around here
22:05:15  <drac_boy> and humm I don't know why but the DRG.05 was also built with at least one or two cabforward flavour on top of the few more conventional ones
22:06:07  <Eddi|zuHause> they did that mostly just to try it
22:06:37  *** roidal [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:07:03  <drac_boy> snail .. about electric .. well .. funny story but N&W actually had one short electrification section due to difficult grades but later on a new route reduced the grade making it workable with steam and this was what caused their last batch of mallets (to order new ones in 1950's was a bit unusual) to be built after the electric was disassembled
22:07:17  <drac_boy> I think they were the only one to do electric>steam replacement usa-wise
22:07:23  <Eddi|zuHause> there were 2 conventional and 1 cab-forward of that series
22:07:25  <drac_boy> everyone else went electric>diesel
22:08:28  <Hiddenfunstuff> electric > diesel-electric
22:08:40  * drac_boy whacks hiddenfunstuff with a diesel-hydraulic
22:08:42  <drac_boy> :)
22:09:05  <Hiddenfunstuff> Diesel-electric is way more efficient way than just diesel with mechanical transmission
22:09:56  <drac_boy> depends tbh .. hydraulic can and sometimes did have a direct lockup (usually used when at speed)
22:10:44  <Hiddenfunstuff> diesel torque curve is narrow, its power curve is narrow.. Its much more efficient to have large diesel engine hooked up to large generator that powers electrical drive motors.. which might have some simple gearbox for torque/speed settings infront of the motor
22:11:17  *** Stimrol [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:11:28  <drac_boy> if you're a shunter/switcher yeah but otherwise when changing infrequently the electric loss is more noticeable
22:11:40  <Hiddenfunstuff> diesel-hydraulic might work for lighter trains such as passengers might work with that.. diesel-electric in freight trains is more common
22:11:53  *** rahtgaz [] has joined #openttd
22:12:25  <Rubidium> just get rid of diesel trains altogether
22:14:12  <Hiddenfunstuff> and replace them with?
22:14:12  <drac_boy> rubidium heh well the real problem is to wire "everything" (even New Haven still had spots that had to be steam/diesel worked up to till the PC "failure") including that little-used branchlines etc
22:14:37  <Hiddenfunstuff> Also in places where its cold and snowing.. electricity is not exactly most reliable solution always
22:14:37  <Rubidium> Hiddenfunstuff: hydrogen fuel cells?
22:14:41  <Hiddenfunstuff> Atleast if its modern electrics
22:14:42  <Hiddenfunstuff> No
22:15:05  <drac_boy> not surprisingly a good % of the metre gauge network in switzerland (and thats not counting freight sidings or anything) are not wired which explains the few types of heavy haul diesels on hand
22:15:17  <Hiddenfunstuff> arent hydrogen fuel cells dangerous if they get slightly banged up and shot?
22:15:38  <Rubidium> if they are, then they're badly designed
22:15:54  <Hiddenfunstuff> Because you must consider the kind of goods the train carry.. there could be some RID cargo
22:16:01  <drac_boy> at least for stations that don't need every single feet to be wired theres always these tiny little diesel or electro-diesel shunter boxes sitting around :)
22:16:21  <Hiddenfunstuff> which might either act as oxidyzer or just highly volatile
22:16:30  <drac_boy> I admit some of these look quite tiny (basically a 2-person cab box on a flatcar with overhanging roof)
22:16:41  <Hiddenfunstuff> Hehe
22:17:08  <Hiddenfunstuff> As someone who worked at railyard and diesel mechanic there.. I grew to hate the newer electric units
22:17:29  <Hiddenfunstuff> Meanwhile the good old diesel-electric from like 1960s ran fine after even 45 years
22:17:52  <drac_boy> heres one of the larger version
22:18:07  <drac_boy> (well larger as in a roomy cab)
22:18:16  <Hiddenfunstuff> and the only 10 year old electric (semi-bullet train-ish passenger) units were every winter out of service in the repair queue
22:18:19  <Rubidium> Hiddenfunstuff: but if it escapes it dissipates quickly, whereas diesel would spill onto the ground and cause problems there
22:19:15  <Hiddenfunstuff> but could hydrogen replace the diesel as in torque?
22:19:45  <Hiddenfunstuff> or how do you would think the hydrogen would be converted into power/electricity?
22:20:35  <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff btw about what you mentioned .. yeah I've noticed too many times (or at least per Todays Railway Europe) that a new fleet of locomotive often run into issues and the supposed-to-be-decomissioned older ones have to take over and basically 'just keep going and going' :)
22:21:00  <Hiddenfunstuff> drac_boy These are the 'swiss army knives' of the rail fleet.. basically did everything from shunting to heavy freight when in pair/triple drive
22:21:08  <drac_boy> I recall one particular magazine now that mentioned "the older ones were made of more stern metal" re new one failing often during winter (and its only like -10 of all the things like ummm what the heck??)
22:22:19  <Rubidium> Hiddenfunstuff: don't know, but diesel is finite so it will end (and hopefully sooner rather than later)
22:22:27  <drac_boy> heh hiddenfunstuff, funny .. I have always liked these Dv** locomotives .. partially because they remind me of my favourite "all-purpose" Alco RS that used to be around here
22:22:30  <Hiddenfunstuff> its like with any machinery these days.. the build quality, material quality is worse
22:23:15  <drac_boy> I dunno if the Dv** ever carried steam heat boilers in the short nose tho did they? (because that would have matched what the Alco RS did for older passenger trains back then)
22:23:26  <Hiddenfunstuff> drac_boy wouldnt be suprised if they took some inspiration there.. ordered couple prototypes from soviet union.. run them and improved them for next 30 years
22:23:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: hydrogen is also finite
22:23:49  <Hiddenfunstuff> for what that steam boilers were used for? starting the main engine?
22:23:58  <drac_boy> heh actually ... there were some Alco RSD (I dunno what the 'D' stuffix additional could had meant) ordered for russia lines before
22:24:13  <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff, no .. steam heating during the winter (before electric heating existed) :)
22:24:15  <Eddi|zuHause> (whereby i mean the hydrogen in the sun's core)
22:24:34  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: though the hydrogen "power" cycle is much shorter than the one for diesel, so reuse of previously used hydrogen is significantly easier
22:24:38  *** Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
22:25:04  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: bavaria had electric heating in 1911
22:25:18  <Hiddenfunstuff> Well these had the main engine (72L V16) coupled to large generator.. then a smaller 14l litre straight 6 starter engine which took care of compressing air for the pneumatic starter of the main engine
22:25:35  <Hiddenfunstuff> as well as took care of the standby power and heating of the main engine
22:26:17  *** Stimrol [] has joined #openttd
22:26:27  <Hiddenfunstuff> Starting sequence obviously went by getting the starter engine running somehow.. then let it collect air and preheat the heavy fuel oil for the main engine, as well as heat the main engine
22:26:43  <Hiddenfunstuff> Then about 15 mins later you started the main engine
22:26:59  <Hiddenfunstuff> after that you turned off the starter engine and main engine took care of everything else
22:28:11  <Hiddenfunstuff> the electric drivemotors were coupled through a 2 speed hydraulic transmission which had "freight" and "express" gears.. basically more torque, lower topspeed.. and other way
22:34:59  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
22:42:45  *** roidal_ [] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.3]
22:49:28  <drac_boy> sorry had to afk for a bit re making supper but anyhow hiddenfunstuff I can't find what I wanted (so easy to find in my magazine but so hard to find online, seem to be a reccuring pattern sometimes) but heres something similar tho...
22:50:01  <Hiddenfunstuff> But yes.. reliability is an issue with modern machinery
22:50:05  <drac_boy> that big dark gold vertical can near middle? thats actually a steam boiler for re steam heating (as thats what most trains were back then when this was built)
22:50:07  <Hiddenfunstuff> can be noticed with light vehicles aswell
22:50:42  <Hiddenfunstuff> Yeah
22:50:43  <drac_boy> the Alco RS often had a small one under the short hood (and so did many emd GP7/GP9 ordered for passenger works too)
22:51:16  <drac_boy> but anyhow back to this: I was just kinda curious if the Dv series had steam heat as well or the trains over there hadn't needed that
22:51:39  <Hiddenfunstuff> well dv had electrical heating and the first prototype models where the main engine and starter engine shared the same cooling water
22:52:18  <drac_boy> ah ok just had to ask
22:52:19  <Hiddenfunstuff> So once you got the starter engine started by some way.. either force injection, or starter ether (hhnnnngh)
22:52:34  <Hiddenfunstuff> and eventually once the engine warmed up it started to warm up the larger one aswell
22:53:00  <drac_boy> btw hiddenfunstuff when amtrak took over most individual passenger services you'll be surprised at how much of the "older stuff" still had to be steam heated
22:53:16  <Hiddenfunstuff> its not that absurd concept
22:53:24  <drac_boy> it was only the commuter railroads (short-haul basically) that had electric early on tho
22:53:48  <Hiddenfunstuff> Before the newer passenger coaches.. each carriage had a small wood/coal boiler in a water loop
22:54:17  <Hiddenfunstuff> newer carriages require 2500v electricity for heating
22:55:03  <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff there is one other thing tho .. would you imagine bilevel behind steam? that did happen on C&NW (aka the original first generation Budd bilevel coaches) for a few years before the emd diesel orders arrived
22:55:33  <Hiddenfunstuff> Hmm yeah.. did they run hot steam in the heating pipes or heated water?
22:55:47  <Hiddenfunstuff> or how did they get the hot steam/water upstairs?
22:56:02  <drac_boy> not sure, someone would have to find the specs for these coaches to check
22:56:27  <Hiddenfunstuff> They couldnt been electric heating since the steam engine doesnt rely on electricity nor does it produce it
22:56:33  <drac_boy> (unrelated note but if you want to imagine a steam locomotive hauling containers then yes that did really exist in japan fyi)
22:56:50  <Hiddenfunstuff> So either there must've been generator car for the heating or then they used some sort of boilers on each car
22:57:39  <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff I do know that some of the later bilevel coaches had part of the lower level reserved for genset supplies (basically a self-climated train that even a freight diesel locomotive could haul)
22:58:11  <Hiddenfunstuff> Generator car is required on the long distance overnight train that goes +1000km north powered by  a dv12.. it cannot put out enough power for heating and utility power for the coaches
22:59:15  <Hiddenfunstuff> 12 car passenger with sleeping cars, usually 2 vehicle carriages in the back.. of with block heater capability for the cars loaded in it
23:01:02  <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff heh yeah I could imagine that. btw photos are hard to find but there were some instances in usa where eg theres two unrelated locomotives on a train .. eg an Emd E9 just to provide the headend power alone and an Alco Century providing the traction power alone
23:01:23  <Hiddenfunstuff> intresting
23:01:54  <drac_boy> yeah .. the E9 would have been too slow to even get the train up to much speed if much of its engine was driven to the HEP circuit hence the unusual duo :)
23:03:08  <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff btw I guess it could come down to different operations in history but usa never really had any sort of electric genset wagons (as it was always assumed this was on the locomotive itself) ...
23:03:29  <drac_boy> although you would find some converted boxcar/etc gensets for tourist train purposes nowaday
23:03:38  <drac_boy> afaik
23:04:30  <Eddi|zuHause> some east german cars had generators mounted to the wheels, to provide heating even if the engine can't
23:04:56  <sim-al2> Amtrak built a few HEP cars early on, those had Detroit Diesel generators in them; they were often built from old RPO/express cars
23:05:13  <Hiddenfunstuff> Some of the older express cars had generators mounted to the axles aswell
23:05:28  <drac_boy> sim-a12 ah ok didn't think amtrak actually had these but cheers
23:05:33  <Hiddenfunstuff> They mostly powered lighting and low voltage stuff
23:05:38  <sim-al2> Most of the world's passenger cars had axle generators, charging the car batteries to provide lights and ventilation
23:05:54  <Hiddenfunstuff> dv12, then a gen-car  (red-white)
23:06:09  <sim-al2> Sometimes they even powered air conditioning, but those put systems put a heavy load on the batteries
23:06:21  <drac_boy> sim-a12 yeah electric lights were a low load that was easy to get from axle generator-battery setup
23:07:03  <sim-al2> Much safer than kerosene lamps too :)
23:07:16  <drac_boy> brb re food sorry
23:07:22  <Hiddenfunstuff> The most hilarious thing in the gen-cars here.. They have seats outside it
23:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause> air condition was not really a thing in germany until the 1990s
23:07:43  <Hiddenfunstuff> Theres nearly half of the car lenght's of seats inside.. the generator and batteries taking up the other half
23:08:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you can notice cars with air conditioning by the fact that the windows don't open
23:08:26  <sim-al2> In the US, certain long-distance trains had them early on, starting with ice block systems around the 1930's (requires ice houses along the line), then steam-expansion systems
23:09:12  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: of course they don't open, else people would open them and complain that refrigeration doesn't work
23:09:18  <sim-al2> There were ice houses because the long-distance food/produce trains needed them, as mechanical refrigerators were very primitive
23:09:49  <Hiddenfunstuff> intresting
23:10:20  <sim-al2> Yes, I've seen that many recent trains actually have reintroduced opening windows (but only a few), as there have been some incidients where the power failed and passengers overheated
23:10:23  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: but if there were a way to open them, they wouldn't be death traps beyond 42°C outside temperature
23:12:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the necessity for non-opening windows comes from pressurization for high-speed tunnels
23:12:33  <Hiddenfunstuff> shouldnt there be some manual vents that you could open up?
23:12:50  <sim-al2> At some point in the 1950's cars with mechanical air conditioning powered by the batteries appeared, but I suppose the batteries must have been difficult because modern systems almost always use some kind of train-lined power
23:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea
23:13:32  <sim-al2> It seems lots of regular, non-sealed cars lost their opening windows too, but they are reappearing
23:14:31  <Hiddenfunstuff> Atleast here the new cars have air conditioning (obviously) That takes its power directly from the train's 1500v service output.. But there is gravitational ventilation when the cars are unplugged
23:15:17  <Hiddenfunstuff> Which is quite noticeable when you sit in a car packed with passenger and the train runs to the other end of the carriages or disconnects for a moment from the cars.. the A/C stops and after about 5 mins itse quite hot and thick air inside
23:17:57  <drac_boy> back
23:18:24  <drac_boy> sim-a12 part of the problem with kerosene was the fully-wood-bodied wagons :)
23:18:35  <Hiddenfunstuff> Yeah...
23:18:43  <sim-al2> The difference in the train-line power is interesting too, Europe using 1500 V AC/DC or 3000 V DC, the British 1000 V AC/DC
23:19:10  <Hiddenfunstuff> yeah.. 1500V i rememberd wrong earlier sayingh 2500V or something.. the driveline for the electric trains is 25,000V
23:19:17  <drac_boy> I recall that steel trains were eventually to be standard but the war caused a lot of old coaches to be pressed back into service tho (and this was where some of the rail deaths during ww I/II happened)
23:19:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: they practically never run engines to the other end anymore here
23:19:35  <sim-al2> US: 480V Three-phase AC, but GO Transit in Canada uses 575(?) V three-phase
23:19:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Hiddenfunstuff: almost all trains run with a cab at the end. or sometimes two engines.
23:20:05  <Hiddenfunstuff> here the engines are still engines and cars are cars
23:20:10  <drac_boy> sim-a12 might be 575V due to the heavier loads needed (especially re 10+ wagons long too)
23:20:45  <sim-al2> Drac: I think that;s the explanation, but Amtrak runs longer trains on 480
23:20:46  <Hiddenfunstuff> are N-A using 480/575V for the heating while europe uses 1500 or 3000?
23:20:55  <Eddi|zuHause> there were instances of two engines with one single car inbetween
23:20:57  <drac_boy> I just know that some of the rush hour GO trains seem to have 2 locomotives (either top&tail or doublehead at one end)
23:21:01  <Hiddenfunstuff> is that the heating line or what?
23:21:09  <sim-al2> Three-phase though, which has different power characteristics
23:21:26  <drac_boy> sim-a12 well...I think its because amtrak doesn't have to deal with the doors being opened every 20-50 minutes?
23:21:40  <sim-al2> It's power for everything, AC, heating, power outlets, battery charging, etc
23:21:57  <Hiddenfunstuff> Oh righty
23:22:13  <sim-al2> Some Amtrak trains are like that, but most long distances probably not less than an hour or so
23:22:38  <Hiddenfunstuff> Because our trains use 2 electrics.. theres standard 450v for standby-low power that is available everywhere as 3 phase
23:22:51  <Hiddenfunstuff> Then theres the 1500V that comes directly from gen-car or engine
23:23:09  <sim-al2> The only real problem with three-phase is that in practice only one unit can supply power, at least reliably
23:23:39  <drac_boy> sim-a12 heh yeah thats one of the few reasons I somehow have always preferred dc networks but to our own :)
23:23:47  <sim-al2> Systems to "syncronize" the output of multiple engines seem to have a lot of trouble here
23:24:33  <sim-al2> The solution so far is to allow the units to provide more power. :)   800kw for Amtrak's modern diesels, and 1000kw for the new electrics
23:25:44  <drac_boy> oh that reminds me of another thing hiddenfunstuff the one funny thing about old high quality versus new "modern" quality is .. cause a small brownout in the overhead wire at a junction and get a little popcorn bowl and watch :)
23:26:04  <drac_boy> the old straight-power unit would just slow down a bit but keep going while the new one's computer would literally shut down the traction power
23:27:07  <Hiddenfunstuff> YEp
23:27:17  <Hiddenfunstuff> Or in best case the first computers in line would've been fried
23:27:29  <drac_boy> yeah that was their reasoning apparently ^
23:27:34  <sim-al2> Generally, the old units use more power and need extra maintenace attention, and more importantly the manufactuers (mostly) can fix the problems
23:27:52  <drac_boy> but still, you would think they would bother using wide-input components for that kind of case then you know?
23:29:21  <drac_boy> at least interestingly some of the smaller emu (or at least as I have found) could be eg built just for 3000VDC operation but they would still run 'ok' on a 1500V line tho (even although this wasn't designed for)
23:29:38  <Hiddenfunstuff> At one point the dv12s electricity was used in cabin heating and lighting along with primitive train-tracking system
23:29:43  <drac_boy> so some of the modern computers are not too bad after all
23:29:55  <Hiddenfunstuff> Speed control and other stuff like that were pneumatically controlled
23:30:29  <Hiddenfunstuff> Which made funny throttle lever since it had nearly 1 second lag in it
23:30:41  <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff, heh some of the early usa locomotives had air-operated throttle which had their own interesting individual characters
23:30:42  <sim-al2> I think that's how they got 1500 VDC capibility for the ES64U4, they built a system that could use 3000 VDC well, and just kinda.... run it off 1500 VDC with current limiters
23:31:17  <sim-al2> (the power output on 1500 VDC is much lower than the other systems)
23:31:23  <drac_boy> an Emd SW1200 with air throttle .. well .. lets just say sometimes you could make the throttle almost get a bit too ahead of the actual engine itself :)
23:31:38  <Hiddenfunstuff> And if your throttle didnt work... you could've always opened up the engine hatches and manually move the governor inside
23:31:57  <drac_boy> oh sim-a12 I know a photo you may like one sec..
23:33:11  *** Wormnest [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:33:23  <drac_boy> sim-a12 I believe they finally either rerouted the train or added poles (I can't recall, someone from uk should know more) so this kind of photos is now historic but .. can you note anything unusual?
23:33:49  <Hiddenfunstuff> is that an electric or a diesel?
23:34:21  <sim-al2> Eurostar, basically a TGV for the British loading gauge
23:34:26  <Hiddenfunstuff> the engine looks dirty enough that there could be exhaust somewhere on the top.. But that cutout in the back looks like a spot for pantograph
23:34:42  <sim-al2> It has/(had) 3rd rail 750VDC capibility
23:34:50  <Hiddenfunstuff> intresting
23:35:00  <Hiddenfunstuff> So it could've basically ran in subway tunnels
23:35:01  <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff, its electric 3rd rail (but I believe now its purely 100% overhead routings tho)
23:35:21  <drac_boy> thats why I asked for someone from uk as I can't recall whether it was due to rerouting or re new poles being added
23:35:38  <sim-al2> Until the British built High Speed 1 to St. Pancras, it ran off the third rail to London Waterloo station
23:35:53  *** Snail [] has joined #openttd
23:36:02  <drac_boy> ah so it was rerouted? thanks, I'll have to try remember that anyhow :)
23:36:11  <drac_boy> still a bit weird to see the eurostar with no wires visible :)
23:36:26  <sim-al2> I don't know about subway tunnels, the Britsh subway (the Underground) is much, much smaller in loading gauge, especially deep-level tubes
23:36:26  <Hiddenfunstuff> I never kinda understood the practicality of the 3rd rails other than in places where overhead is dangerous or no space for it (tunnels)
23:36:33  <sim-al2> Cheap
23:37:02  <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff for short-distance low voltage it was the easiest way to go with doing it (assuming you don't got road crossings, although japan seem to have worked out the kink with that tho)
23:37:38  <sim-al2> Here's a deep-level tube:
23:37:47  <drac_boy> keep in mind 3rd rail usually was exactly the same voltage the traction motor used (so that explains some trainsets having light chassis weight as noone needed transformers)
23:37:57  <sim-al2> Also note the 4th rail system the Underground uses
23:38:29  <drac_boy> sim-a12 didn't london use that unusual system because they combined a positive and a negative voltages together to get a higher total capacity?
23:39:22  <sim-al2> No, the voltages are around 600 VDC total, but one rail is positive and the other negative, as it was feared that regular 3rd rail (postive 600) would corrode the cast iron tubes used
23:39:49  <drac_boy> oh..I see
23:39:50  <sim-al2> Those trains can run on regular 3rd rail with some minor adjustments
23:40:48  <drac_boy> btw sim-a12 I may not know much about the LUL but I've actually read a bit about the glasgow (I hope I got city name right from memory) system .. a rather unusual one where it was a completely circular line that initially was winch line worked before they retrofitted electric power instead
23:40:54  <sim-al2> The issue with DC power is that until fairly recently, there was no way to adjust voltages like you can with an AC transformer
23:41:03  <drac_boy> these bright orange trains that runs on the glasgow circle is quite something too
23:41:11  <sim-al2> Thus, the highest sytem voltages being around 3300 VDC
23:41:34  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
23:42:10  <sim-al2> Traction motor insulation being the biggest impediment, as insulation for 3300 VDC seems to have been the highest avaliable before AC systems became dominant
23:42:14  * drac_boy still can't recall right now if there was any kind of service shed on that line or they are still using a overhead crane hoist to add/remove trains from the circle
23:42:47  <sim-al2> The line between Waterloo and Bank needs to use cranes to get trains in and out
23:43:17  <sim-al2> All the other lines have portions, if not most of the line above ground
23:43:55  <drac_boy> I still wonder how the winch thing worked on that glasgow circle anyway :)
23:44:08  <sim-al2> There's actualy two systems in one, deep-level with the small trains and subsurface that are larger, close in size to the regular UK trains
23:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i found a picture 2 engines+1 wagon:
23:45:24  <Eddi|zuHause> (this was, however, an emergency solution, not the actually intended train length :p)
23:45:25  <sim-al2> Must be the express :p
23:46:38  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
23:48:26  <drac_boy> btw hiddenfunstuff there was at least one or two points in uk where a train service uses both overhead and 3rd rail due to network differences
23:48:38  <drac_boy> I forgot now but I believe it was Class 3** or something like that
23:49:03  <drac_boy> tunnel height restriction was one of the purposes the 3rd rail still existed for too I think...someone correct me if thats wrong
23:50:11  <FLHerne> drac_boy: 313, 319
23:50:18  <sim-al2> Several EMUs have dual capability now, 313 being he first
23:50:24  <FLHerne> Also basically everything modern is at least capable of it
23:50:26  <drac_boy> ah thanks flherne
23:50:44  <FLHerne> 377/2, 387 use it in regular service
23:51:29  <drac_boy> yeah I recall now there was the amusing story of a driver forgetting to lower the pantographs on a 313 at least once ... cue the pans scraping into the tunnel ceiling
23:51:29  <sim-al2> The Electrostar and the Desiro families especially have the fittings necessary to install all the equipment
23:51:32  <drac_boy> can you say ops? :)
23:51:42  <FLHerne> 350s have had their 3rd-rail shoes removed, all other 377s and 444s/450s/458s have pantograph wells and spaces for transformers that haven't been fitted
23:52:20  <Hiddenfunstuff> Didnt even london underground have steam/diesels in them before electricity?
23:52:28  <drac_boy> sim-a12 funny thing is I still remember the electrostar in ukrs grf .. its too bad that IS2.5 for some reason never got rolled into the official build :-/
23:52:38  <Hiddenfunstuff> just thinking the amount of smoke and steam in the tunnels even with some sort of ventilation
23:52:45  <sim-al2> They had steam, the tunnels had openings in the roof to provide some ventilation
23:52:57  <drac_boy> would had made a good reason for the emu if say company1 only had 3rd rail and company2 couldn't be bothered providing 3rd rail
23:53:33  <sim-al2> There were plans to build more as the situation was becoming dangerous, but the vents were stopped by NIMBYs, and in any case electric trains arrived eventuallt
23:53:47  <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff the 'old' tubes were a bit deeper (aside to the extra ventilations) compared to the newer electric-from-start tubes that didn't exactly have a lot of ventilations (other than for climate purpose)
23:54:09  <Hiddenfunstuff> Well yeah.. I'v seen how the trains and the tunnel walls are quite snug fit
23:54:31  <sim-al2> The problem is dual electrifcation, especially with AC and DC, creates induced currents in both systems, so it is avoided as much as possible
23:55:15  <drac_boy> btw hiddenfunstuff there was this special run a while ago
23:55:26  <drac_boy> (don't mind the historic-dressed passengers! heh)
23:55:38  <Hiddenfunstuff> Hehe
23:55:54  <drac_boy> that thing was also banked by an almost-equally-vintage electric tube locomotive on the tail (just to be able to keep to the timetable if needed)
23:56:15  <Hiddenfunstuff> Heh
23:56:18  <sim-al2> I think the steam locomotives were also supposed to use "smokeless" fuel ( coke I believe), that helped keep the pollution down
23:56:39  <Hiddenfunstuff> well that seems quite light smoke in the tunnel
23:56:43  <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff btw you see that not-so-red wagon right behind the locomotive? that was specially converted to act as an additional water supply for this run fyi
23:57:10  <Hiddenfunstuff> Intresting
23:57:11  <drac_boy> it used to be a goods/parcel van I think .. someone else would have to check
23:57:24  <Hiddenfunstuff> the tiny engine didnt have big reservoir for water?
23:57:44  <drac_boy> sim-a12 .. coke coal and there was also condensing gears (sometimes worked well, sometimes not .. guess it depends on who built it and the engineer's skill)
23:58:16  <drac_boy> hiddenfunstuff I believe they did it for safety reason (and re to run a long time away from the primary shed too)
23:58:32  <drac_boy> that little box ahead of the cab is pretty much all the water supply the locomotive itself had :)

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk